Answer to Campian the Jesuit, Reasons · Answer 1

Answer to Campian the Jesuit · Reasons · Answer 1

p. 23WILLIAM WHITAKERS. The anſwere to the first Reaſon.

THat Campian, which made you moſt cheerefull in the cauſe you hauehave vndertaken, and boulder then a Ieſuite (being newlie come out of your den or cabbine where you hauehave lurked theſe diuers yeeres) to proclame warre againſt vsus all, and challenge to the combate the moſt valiant of vsus; that, you ſaie, was the euident apprehenſion of our diſtruſt and diffidence in our cauſe. But what manhood is this for ſo valourous a man as you make ſhew to be, to prouoke and with ſharpe warre to purſue ſo timerous aduerſaries, who are readie to betake themſelues to their heeles, not daring to ſtand to it, but diſtruſting their owne ſtrength? But tell vsus in what things our diſtruſt hath bin ſo ſenſible. There are many things, ſay you, which euidently bewray the aduerſaries mistrust in the cauſe. Verelie if boldnes in oppugning and withſtanding Religion were of as great force, as vſually it is in making of warre, and ſcaling the enemies walles, and racing his townes, we might well feare your furious and deſperate attempts: for whatſoeuer could be compaſſed by rage, furie, and crueltie, that hath not in this combate and contention been wanting. But ſuch weapons cannot dare religion and truth, neither can they diſplace it. Let it be graunted, we hauehave not been ſo cheerefull and readie in the defence of a good cauſe as we ought, and as the cauſe it ſelfe well deſerued, neither hauehave we put to flight your forces p. 24ſo ſoone as we ought to hauehave vanquiſhed thē, yet we neuer gaue ground, we neuer turned our backs vponupon you, neither euer ſled out of the field.aaDVR. You boats much of your valour. but vvhether thinke you is he valorous or fearefull, vvho dare not othervviſe buckle vvith his aduerſarie, but vponupon condition he may forbid him what weapons he liſt, and chooſe for himſelfe vvhat he list? Now here is your valour, you forbid vsus the vveapons of the Church, Councels, Fathers. You only leaue vsus the weapons of the Scriptures? WH. Pag. 4. He that will ouercome in this cauſe muſt onelyonly vſe thoſe weapons, which are allowed in this kind of ſight. For it is not lawfull heere, as in warre, to take any weapon, by which you can wound your enemie. But weapons muſt be fetched out of the armorie of the Scriptures, and the ſpirit of God, or elſe there vvill be no foyling of an aduerſary. And this is that which the Scriptures doe warrant; and Conſtantine commanded the Fathers of the Nicene Councel to vſe againſt the Arrians, and to end controuerſies; the bookes of the Euangeliſts and Apoſtles, and the oracles of the old Prophets. Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 6. And the like teacheth Hillarie de Trinit. lib. 7. August. Epist. 3. and contr. liter. Petil. Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. and in diuers other places. Why doe you then repoue this thing in vsus? Tell me, vvhoſe cauſe thinke you is beſt? vvhether ours, vvho are content vvith the S…riptures alone, and being armed vvith them can defend our ovvne, and refel others; or yours, vvhichwhich in no caſe can be ſafe, if the cauſe muſt be tried by the Scripture only. Therefore at the fi…ſt you are forced to confeſſe that you muſt come into the field vnarmed and naked, if no vveapons vvill be afforded you beſides the Scriptures. For tell vsus Campian if you can, and remember the bypaſt times. Did we euer cūningly auoid any diſputation? did we euer refuſe any combate? did we euer ſhift off any of your offers and challenges? But how often hauehave we publikely entred the combate with you? how often hauehave we refuted your oft iterated Sophiſtications? what writing of yours is yet vnanſwered by vsus? or what courſe of diſputation hauehave we not yeelded to? Are not all thoſe diſputations held at Wittenberge, Ratesbone, Auguſta, Spire, Wormes, Bearne, Poſſia, London, Cambridge, Oxford, moſt plentifull and pregnant witneſſes, with what ſpirits, with what learning, with what truth we defended our Religion? what ſhew or ſigne of feare, or diffidence found you amongſt vsus? nay rather how true and ſingular confidence did there appeare in vsus? you it is, and not we, when it comes to a trial indeed that begins to ſweat, chaunge countenance, tremble eueryevery ioynt of you, and bewray your deepe diſtruſt and the naughtines of your cauſe. Wherefore, Campian, take it from me, p. 25if you thinke our diſtruſtfulnes will helpe you any thing, you much deceiue your ſelfe, for if we hauehave with courage ſtood againſt your predeceſſors ſo far ſurpaſſing you, we will not yeeld a haire to you? nor feare your manner of conflict, being ſo childiſh in the iudgement of all men. But this diffidence, you ſo caſt in our diſh, tell vsus what it is, and how it appeares ſo clearely, Forſooth we diſtruſt our hold in the Scriptures, and the maiestie of Gods bookes we hauehave most filthilie corrupted. This indeed is a very great crimination you obiect to vsus, and an vndoubted proofe of our diſtruſt: for they who are not able to maintaine the Religion they profeſſe, vnleſſe they lay violent hands vponupon the Scriptures, and impeach the ſacred authoritie of thoſe heauenly bookes, the cauſe on their ſide muſt be very naught and deſperate indeed. Therfore I graunt vntounto you, that it was very fearefull deſperation, which made the Manachies renounce the old Teſtament wholy, and cancell part of the new: the ſame alſo made Ebion reiect all Paules Epiſtles, and other heretikes to do ſo too: for there was nothing fitter for them to vphold thoſe their monſtrous opinions, then by denying thoſe bookes of holy Scripture.

But I pray you Campian, let vsus ſee how theſe things make for your purpoſe: or what it is wherein we are ſo like thoſe forenamed Heretikes. Me thinkes it little beſeemeth your learning and eloquence, to ſlaunder vsus, and to pinne vponupon our ſleeues ſuch odious crimes of auncient heretikes ſo vndeſeruedly. If we hauehave ſhaken hands with the Manachees, if with the Ebionits, tell vsus wherein? But if we are culpable of no ſuch thing, the Lord ſhall iudge your outragious and bold ſlaunders, and maintaine our vprightnes and innocency. For who euer thought and ſpoke more honorably, reuerently and with more due regard of p. 26the Scriptures then we? who hauehave receiued and imbraced all Scripture giuen by inſpiration, as the very voice of God himſelf; holding it for the only myſterie of our faith and religion, and ſo reſting in it, as that we deſire no other helpe as neceſſary to ſaluation? which if we had not with more diligence and deuotion defended, then you euer did, long ere this the glorie of it had periſhed, and it had bin counted as a dead letter: For what hauehave we done for theſe many yeeres with more endeuour and diligence, then maintaine the maieſty and excellencie of the Scriptures, which you hauehave ſo vnworthily violated? And yet you bluſh not to match vsus with the Manachees and Ebionits, who hauehave violently laid moſt impure and villanous hands vponupon thoſe ſacred bookes. But, ſay you, Luther that most wicked Apostata, called the Epistle of S. Iames a contentious, ſwelling, barren and ſtrawen Epistle, and iudged it vnworthy the ſpirit of an Apostle: ſtill the fatte would be in the fire, Campian, if you had not one fit of rayling at Luther, for this is to ſhew your ſelfe a right Ieſuite, as indeed you are, ſhameleſſely and audaciouſly to breake out into rayling, and ſpecially to teare Luther with moſt bitter reproches. This is your facultie and profeſſion, this you hauehave vndertaken to do, whatſoeuer you… leaue vndone: ſurely he is an happy man, whom the Lord thus honoreth with the enmitie and hatred of ſuch wicked men: for he cannot chuſe but be an excellent man, whom wicked men do ſo deadly purſue. But you obiect againſt Luther his Apoſtaſie: look to your ſelfe Campian, if you may not bee more iuſtly accuſed of this crime: for doubtleſſe you are either an Apoſtata, or you were a cunning hypocrite. But if it be Apoſtaſie to forſake Apoſtataes, then was Luther ſuch an Apoſtata. For hee abandoned theeues, heretikes, Apoſtataes, and ſeparated himſelfe p. 27from that Curch, in which that daily Apoſtaſie from religion,2. Theſſ. 2.32 Thess 2:3 which the Apoſtle did foretell, was now come to the height: they then who would not be Apoſtataes muſt flie from the Apoſtaſie of your Church.

But ſay you, Luther ſpake not ſo reuerently of the Epiſtle of S. Iames as was fitting: It is well all you can challenge him with, is touching this Epiſtle only: he neuer did by any one word impeach the Goſpels of Matthew, Marke, Luke, and Iohn, neither the Epiſtles of Saint Paul, or Saint Peter; only a little he taxed the Epiſtle of Saint Iames. Is Luther alone in this crime? hath all Antiquitie receiued this Epiſtle of S. Iames, & Luther only reiected it? vndoubtedly, no: neither was Luther ignorant what cenſure the auncient Church gaue of this Epiſtle:**Lib. 2. c. pa 23. Euſebius aduētured to write expreſly of this Epiſtle thus.bbDVR. But Euſebius onelyonly ſaith, that this Epistle vvas thought of diuers, not to be vvritten by S. Iames; and denies not the canonicall authoritie of it. For after hee ſaith: It was receiued of many Churches. WHIT. Pag. 12. You wreſt both the words and ſence of Euſebius: for he alleageth not other mens opinions, but his owne direct iudgement. But if wee admit that you ſay, it muſt the rather bee counterfeit; for if Saint Iames did not write it, and yet hee calleth himſelfe James the ſeruant of God, and of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt: muſt it not bee forced? …aue the pen-men of the Scripture vſed to take other mens names vntounto them? If you deny it to bee written by Saint James, you muſt needes confeſſe it to be Apocrypha: and ſo after your ſenſe, Euſebius hath reiected this Epiſtle; which thing to him that readeth Euſebius will manifeſtly appeare. And that hee ſaith many Churches receiue it, and not all; muſt needs proue that he thought it was not Canonicall. Be it knowne to all men that this Epistle which is fathered on Saint Iames, is counterfeit: what can be written more plainely? it may be you will except againſt Euſebius. But tell vsus why? therefore not to ſtand with you,Hieronym. in Catalogo. will you heare what Hierome ſaith, who as you well know was an Elder of the Church of Rome? The Epistle of Iames is held to hauehave been publiſhed vnderunder his name by ſome other. The one ſaith it is counterfeit, the other writeth, that it was thought to be publiſhed not by the Apoſtle, but by ſome other. Why then p. 28are you angrie with Luther, whom you ſee not vnaduiſedly and raſhly to doubt of the authoritie of that Epiſtle, but therein followeth the iudgement and cenſure of the auncient Church? for from hence it is very cleare,ccDVR. Doth hee therefore doubt of the authoritie of this booke; what ſhall vve then ſay to Caluin, vvho hath plainely denied that the Epiſtle to the Hebrues vvas vvritten by Saint Paul? and if you had not been a deceiuer, you vvould hauehave alleadged Hierome vvholy: for it follovveth. Though by little and little in ſucceeding ages it obtained authoritie. WHIT. Pag. 16 He that ſaith, It is thus held, and neither diſlikes nor refures ſuch a ſuſpition, ſheweth he not himſelf alſo doubtful of it? Caluin had ſome reaſon, becauſe that Epiſtle was not publiſhed in the name of Saint Paul, as this was of Saint Iames. What compariſon is there in theſe two? the Epiſtle of Saint Iames hath his name in the beginning of it, as the author of it; ſo hath not the other the name of Saint Paul: ſo that hee that denies that to bee written by Saint Iames, muſt needes make it counterfeit. But no ſuch thing here. Therefore may this be held to be canonicall, though it be denied to be written by Saint Paul. If you had read but a few lines more, you ſhould finde that I vſed no deceite, neither had you cauſ… to be ſo bitter. And theſe words of Hierome prooue directly, that the authoritie of this Epiſtle was ſometimes doubted of. that the firſt age of the Church doubted ſomewhat of the credit and authoritie of this Epiſtle. But you will ſay, it was afterwards receiued, and Hierome witneſſeth as much. I inquire not how iuſtly that might be receiued in a ſucceeding age, which once was reiected, that the credit and authoritie it had not in the beginning, it might gaine in time by mens calmneſſe in iudging: neither will I contend about the authority of this Epiſtle. Let it be as great as euer any booke had; we verily receiue it, and put it in the Canon of the Scriptures; for whatſoeuer Luther or any other may conclude touching this Epiſtle, or leſſen the credit of it any way; yet all our Churches willingly imbrace it, and iudge it written by the Apoſtle, or ſome Apoſtolike man; and in it do vndoubtedly acknowledge the doctrine and ſpirit of an Apoſtle.**Caluin. in argument. in Epist. Iacob. I, ſaith Caluin, willingly and without controuerſie receiue this Epistle, becauſe I ſee no iust cauſe to reiect it. Therefore obiect no longer vntounto vsus other mens ſharpe cenſures and hard ſpeeches, whereof we are no wayes guilty: for what is it to vsus, what other men thinke of this Epiſtle, who diſpraiſe no part of it, neither detract any thing from the authority p. 29thereof? But where I pray you writ Luther any ſuch thing, which you make mention of? let vsus ſee the place, that we may perceiue how faithfully you deale. You tell vsus of a Preface he writ vponupon the Epiſtle of S. Iames, ſuch as I thinke few men know: for it is no where to be found amongeſt Luthers workes: yet by accident I light vponupon that preface, and read it from the beginning to the ending, in which not any of thoſe things is to be ſeene which you mention: ſo that we may eaſily coniecture what we are like to find of you in the ſequell, when in the beginning you are not aſhamed to lye ſo palpablie. For Luther begins his preface thus. The Epistle of S. Iames though reiected of Antiquitie, I much commēd & hold very fitting & profitable. And in this booke of the Babyloniſh captiuity, he thus writeth of this Epiſtle. I paſſe ouer that which many probablie affirme, that this was not the Epistle of S. Iames the Apostle, nor agreeing with the ſpirit of an Apostle. Theſe things very grauely and modeſtly hath Luther written concerning this Epiſtle of S. Iames; ddDVR. Jf you had ſeene the copie printed at Jena you ſhould ſee that Luther thus ſpeaketh of this Epistle. WHIT. p. 22. I acknowledge that Luther in a moſt auncient preface publiſhed by himſelfe at Wittenberge 1525. called it a ſtrawen Epiſtle in compariſon of the Epiſtles of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, but finde not that, you affirme any where.& neuer culled it as you affirme, a contentious, barren, ſwelling, or a ſtrawen Epiſtle: though I deny not but Luther was of that opinion, that he greatly called in queſtion the Author and Argument of this Epiſtle. And it had been your part, who condemne his opinion, to hauehave confuted his reaſons. Eraſmus euidently writeth, that this Epiſtle hath no taſt of Apoſtolike authoritie; ſo that Luther iudged more tolerably of this Epiſtle, then Eraſmus. But howſoeuer the caſe ſtand, Luther in his iudgment is not without the conſent of theeeDVR. Jf he agreed with the first and purest Churches: you differing from him, doe diſſent from them. WHIT. I call them the pureſt Churches, not for their ſincere iudgement of this Epiſtle, but for that they flouriſhed in the beſt and pureſt times. firſt and pureſt Churches. And yet to let Luther paſſe, we hauehave no p. 30other opinion of this Epiſtle, then your ſelues hauehave, and honor it as much, as you thinke it deſerues. And let me promiſe and anow this for vsus all; whatſoeuer in this combate, which you hauehave vndertaken, you proue out of this Epiſtle, we will moſt willingly imbrace, and not ſhift it off, as you ſuſpect we will. All the ſentences of this Epiſtle, we allow of, and reiect not any one. For as for that inſtance, which you giuegive of ſole faith, it is but a ſillie and lame tricke of your ſophiſtry; our doctrine of iuſtification by faith only is moſt true & holy; which S. Paul alſo clearely teacheth, though he doe notffDVR. Saint Paul neuer in plaine words hath affirmed our iustification by faith onlie. WHIT. pag. 27. When S. Paul ſaith we are iuſtified by faith, it is as much as by faith alone, becauſe faith reſpects onelyonly mercy, and withall excludeth workes: Rom. 3.28 & cap. 4.5.6. & cap. 3.20. Gal. 2.16. and laſtly he ſaith we are freely iuſtified by grace: Eph. 2.7.8. Rom. 3.24. then he affirmes that faith only doth iuſtifie.Rom 3:28Gal 2:16Eph 2:7Eph 2:8Rom 3:24 expreſſely vſe theſe words,Rom. 3.24.28.Rom 3:24Rom 3:28 Faith alone. And the auncient do ſo expound and interpret S. Paul. Ambroſe ſaith;ggDVR. Ambroſe by his ſole faith excludeth only the workes of the ceremoniall law, and ſo he ſpeaketh in that place. WHIT. pag. 33. It is enough that he affirmeth that this is S. Paules poſition: we are iuſtified by faith only. And when he excludeth only the workes of the ceremoniall law, in that he is againſt the iudgement of Augustine and Hierome and himſelfe alſo, in lib. 2. cap. 2. de Iacob. & vita beata. They are iustified only by faith, it is the gift of God. hhDVR. Baſil excludes only thoſe workes which are wrought by the ſole power of freewill. WHIT. pag. 38. Baſil excludes not only the workes wrought by the power of freewill, but euen thoſe which proceed from faith and grace; for he produced S. Paul, and Saint Peter whom he denies to hauehave been iuſtified by workes, yet had they both faith and grace.Baſil ſaith; They are iustified by faith alone in Christ. iiDVR. Nazianzene excludeth only that high knowledge of diuine myſteries. WHIT. pag. 41. Nazianzene excludes not only that high knowledge of diuine myſteries, but alſo by it all other workes; for ſeeing it is the moſt excellent, and ſo excluding the greateſt, he muſt needs exclude the leſſe.Nazianzene ſaith; Righteouſnes conſisteth in faith only. Why ſhould I recite any other ſayings of other of the Fathers of the Church? This doctrine is both Euangelicall and Apoſtolicall; contrary to this, if Iames or an Angell from heauen ſhould preach, let him be held as impious, wicked, and accurſed. But you will ſay S. Iames p. 31denies iuſtification by faith only, yea affirmes that we are iuſtified by workes. We anſwere, that the Apoſtle ſpeaketh of akkDVR. Saint Iames ſpeaketh not of a faigned faith: for how can be thē ſpeake of Abrahams faith? how is it fayned to beleeue that God is? WHIT. pag. 42. S. Iames ſpeak…th of a fayned faith, as is plaine verſ. 14. for it is in words only verſ. 15.16. it giueth nothing, when reliefe is required. verſe 17. it is without workes and dead. verſ. 18 only that is true faith, which can be ſhewed by workes, heere no workes verſ. 19. It is only ſuch a faith as the diuels hauehave: ſo a fayned and dead fa…th. pag. 44. And Auguſtine thus expoundeth it, De fide & oper. Cap. 14. & in Pſal. 31. in Praefat. and pag 45. Though Abrahams faith was a true faith, becauſe it ſhewed it ſelfe by true fruites and true workes: that proues not, but their faith is fayned who hauehave no workes. Of which Saint Iames ſpeaketh. pag. 46. faith is not the leſſe fayned and vaine, becauſe it beleeues that God is: ſeeing Saint Iames affirmeth the di…els beleeue as much.Ps 31 feigned dead, idle, and counterfeite faith, which many boaſted of, and falſly perſwaded themſelues they were iuſt by it. This faith, which we may more truly call a carcaſe of faith, Saint Iames denieth to be ſufficient for ſaluation to any, and he that is iuſtified he teacheth muſt be iuſtified by workes, that is, muſt be proued, and declared to be iuſt: for it muſt needs be, that faith be liuing, fruitfull and accompanied with good works, that all may clearely perceiue and diſcerne, you are indued with true faith. And ſo doth S. Iames very fitly accord with S. Paul, while he diſputes from the effects; when as S. Paul argueth from the cauſe. The principall & immediate cauſe of our iuſtification, S. Paul makes faith; S. Iames writeth that a man is iuſtified by workes, that is, eueryevery man by his workes as by moſt pregnant teſtimonies isllDVR. It is ridiculous to thinke, that Saint Iames ſhould teach men how to ſhew themſelues iust, and ſpeake nothing of true iustice. WHIT. pag 47. We ſay not that Saint Iames teacheth only how a man may obtaine the opinion of iuſtice with men, but how he may ſhew and declare himſelfe by certaine proofes and arguments to be indued with true iuſtice. And that this place toucheth the declaration of true faith by workes, and ſo the demonſtration of our iuſtification, not we, but your owne men do ſo teach. Thomas Aquin. in Iacob. 2. Gloſſa-Ordin. in Iacob. knowne and acknowledged iuſt, while his inuiſible faith is witneſſed and declared by his viſible workes. Therefore you ſee there is no reaſon why for this cauſe Luther ſhould either find fault with, or feare the Epiſtle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled theſe two Apoſtles Iames p. 32and Paul, that you may ſee that we are not broachers of any Noueltie. Wherefore, ſaithmmDVR. Auguſtine maketh nothing for you, but againſt you. WHIT. pag. 50. Augustin… affirm…th directly that S. Iames ſpeaketh of a vaine and fayned faith, which is as much as we here produce him for. Auguſtine; Aug. quaes…. 85 quae…t. 76.the iudgements of the two Apostles, S. Paul, & S. Iames, are not contrarie each to other, when the one ſaith a man is iustified by faith without workes; and the other ſaith, that it is a vaine faith which is without workes; becauſe S. Paul ſpeak…th of workes which goe before faith: Saint Iames of workes which follow faith; at S. Paul himſelfe ſheweth in many places. Therefore the Apoſtle S. Iames would not, neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iuſtification, which Luther learned from S. Paul. Yea all Papiſts and Ieſuits ſhall ſooner be torne aſunder, then this iudgement of Luther, touching faith alone, ſhall either quaile or be ouerthrowne.

From Luther you turne the edge of your ſpeech to the whelpes of Luther: for ſo you, as an vncleane dogge, terme men famous and flouriſhing with all good qualities. But why you ſhould ſo call them, I well conceiue not, vnleſſe it be, for that they neuer ceaſe barking againſt your Biſhops and Monkes, and other Church robbers, like your ſelfe. But let vsus heare what heynous thing thoſe whelpes hauehave committed. They hauehave on a ſuddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture, Tobias, Eccleſiasticus, the two bookes of the Macchabees, and many other bookes. Say you of a ſuddaine, Campian? Is it true indeed that you are ſuch a ſtranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers, that you know not that long agoe theſe bookes were raced out of the Canon? Looke I pray you into Hierome, and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done. That we may know, ſaithnnDVR Hierome ſaith that the former Churches did not receiue theſe bookes for Canonicall: but denies them not to be Canonicall. WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that theſe bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical, but himſelf o…ten times denies them to be ſuch, and plainely cals them Apoch…ypha bookes, which he w…uld neuer hauehave done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall; yea and as Duraeus confeſſeth, they were not ſo taken vntill …lmo…t 70… ye…res af…er Chriſt. Hierome, Hieron. i… Prologo Galiato.Whatſoeuer p. 33bookes are more then theſe, they are to be accoūted among the Apochrypha. Therefore Wiſdome, which commonly is called the Wiſdome of Salomon, and the booke of Ieſus the ſonne of Syrach, and Iudith, and Tobias, and Pastor, are not in the Canon. Will you that are but a Frier put theſe bookes in the Canon, which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church, and the truth it ſelfe, denieth to be in the Canon? marke well his owne words: They are not in the Canon. You ſay that we hauehave daſhed them out; and why ſhould we not ſo doe? For, ſaith Hierome, they are not in the Canon. Deſire you any further teſtimonies? Epiphanius ſaith as much as Hierome, who after he had recited diuers bookes, which you ſay we hauehave put out of the Canon, he thus writeth; as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke. Theſe bookes verily are profitable and helpefull, Epiphan. in lib. de menſur. & Ponder.but they are not reckoned in the number of thoſe which are receiued. Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron, neither in the arke of the Couenant. But ſee out of Hierome more manifeſt and pregnant things.Hieron. praefat. in lib. Solomon. As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith, Tobias, and Macchabees, but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture: ſo alſo theſe two bookes (he meaneth Wiſdome and Eccleſiaſticus) it reades for edification of the common ſort, not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church. If, Campian, you be ignorant of theſe auncient teſtimonies you are but a young ſouldier in that kind of fight, where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine; but if you know them, you are too vniuſt and iniurious vntounto vsus, to obiect to vsus, I know not what desporation, becauſe wee admit not thoſe bookes in the Canon of the Scripture, which Antiquitie tels vsus directly, were neuer admitted, neither are to be admitted:Caietan. in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan, feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of p. 34the Macchabees, in a certeine propheſie of Daniels, was a lyer: but the holy Ghoſt was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture. Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by thoſe Oracles, as often as we diſpute againſt the defence of Angels, as often as we diſpute againſt freewill, as often as we diſpute againſt praying to Saints: You muſt fi…ſt, before you can conuince vsus, proue that an argument will conclude neceſſarily out of thoſe bookes, to confirme the doctrine of the Church, which Hierome demeth, and you ſhall neuer be able to proue, though you call all the Ieſuits to a conſultation. And ſeeing you obiect deſperation to vsus, ſee ho… you bewray your owne miſerable …eſperation; who cannot eſtabliſh the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures, but you ſhe to the Apoc…ypha, whoſe authority hath bin▪ and for euer ſhall be doubted of in the Church. The Lord hath commited his Will and Wo…d to writing, and commended it to his Church: Thoſe writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence; we are content with them, and we maintaine thei… ſufficiency; let goe then theſe queſtionable, obſcure, and Apochrypha bookes, and out of theſe contend with vsus about religion. But your religion long agoe hath paſſed beyond the bounds of the ſacred Scripture, and hath broken forth into many ſuperſtitions. And hence it is that you doe the thing, than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable; that is, make of like authoritie with holy Scripture, not only the Apochrypha bookes, but eueryeveryooDVR. Pag. 5…. …e do not aff…me Traditions, to be of the ſame authority with the holy Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it, yet the Councell of …rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them, as it doth the bookes o… the old and new Teſtam…nt. See Dec…et. 1. Seſſ. 4. vnwritten. Tradition, wherſoeuer you come by them, at the ſecond or third hand. But what do I telling you of theſe things, who ſhamefully hauehave aduentured long ſince to violate and inf…inge all the lawes, both of God and man? p. 35Take this from me: if you can demonſtrate that we hauehave condemned or reiected any one booke, or anyppDVR. Pag. 64. You hauehave raced out theſe words out of S. Iohn: EueryEvery ſpirit …hich diuideth Christis not of God: …nd the hiſtorie of the adulterous woman Iohn 8.3. WHIT. pag. 65. We hauehave not raced it out of the …cripture; for it is not to be found in the mo…t auncient Greek copies, but as we read it, 1. Ioh. 4.3. Cyprian alſo l. b. 2. cap. 8. teſtim. contra Iudaeos ſo reads it, and Augustine alſo ad Po…ent. lib. 2. cap. 7. reads bo h. The hiſtory of the woman taken in adultery we race not out: though ſome of the auncient hauehave done, and Beza though he demurred about it, ve… neuer daſhed it out.John 8:31 John 4:3 part and portion of any booke, which appeareth to hauehave bin written and confirmed by diuine authoritie, I will neuer contend any longer, but yeeld you the day, and giuegive vp our weapons to you. But if we hauehave euer moſt faithfully kept the whole corpes of the Scriptures, and hauehave ſeuered the true bookes from falſe, and hauehave defended the heauenly truth of God, and preſerued it vncorrupt, why doe you poore ſilly F…ier cry out of our deſperation, when your ſelfe is ſo farre plunged in deſperation it ſelfe, that there is no certainty of your ſaluatiō, but by the deprauation and corruption of the holy Scriptures?

Now in that you affirme we are conuinced by thoſe oracles: As often as we dispute of the defence of Angels, of freewill, of praying for the dead, and of praying to Saints: they are thing which we hauehave diſcuſſed a thouſand times, and hauehave exactly determined them out of the true oracles of God. The defence of Angels is taught vsus in the Scripture, where we are taught that God hath ſet his Angels ouer certaine people,Dan. 10. & 12. …ſal. 91.11.Dan 10 places, and men; and of this in general we nothing doubt, but that Angels hauehave that commiſſion from the Lord, that they muſt prouide for mens ſafety and ſaluation. So that we deny them not ſome kind of miniſtration, yea we attribute as much to them as the Lord hath taught vsus we ſhould. And as for yourqqDVR. Denys …as S Pauls diſciple, and he hath manifested ſuch m…teries. WHIT. pag 68. Why did not S. Paul, who wa… rapt vp into the third heauen, and ſaw ſuch great things, declare vntounto vsus the hierarchy of Angels? did he bur…e it in ſilence, and his diſciple tell it abroad? But Denys was not the diſciple of S. Paul, as ſhall in another place be proued. Hierarchie and manifold degrees of Angels, we are willingly ignorant of them, and no whit enuy your knowledge, who hauehave had the reuelation of ſuch great myſteries from your Denys, who p. 36hath (that I may vſe the words of S. Paul) aduaunced himſelfe in thoſe things whic he neuer ſaw. But it is another patronage of Angels which you defend, and hold that we ought to worſhip them and call vponupon them, which the Scripture in plaine words forbiddeth, forrrDVR. Saint Paul forbids onelyonly the offering vp of ſacrifice to Angels, and making of them nevv mediat…rs. WHIT pag. 70. S. Paul fo…bids all worſhipping of them, and ſo prayers, a ſwell as ſacrifice…; they being a part of worſhip. pag 71. Chryſost. in Coloſſ. 2. hom. 7. in theſe words: Occumen. in Coloſſ. 2. whom you alledge, do not interpret them for you, but for our opinion, and as the truth is.Col 2 S. Paul condemnes Worſhipping of Angels. Coloſſ. 2.18.Col 2:18And the Angell once and againe called S. Iohn from this kind of worſhip.ſſDVR. Saint Iohn did n…t worſhip the Angell, but tooke the perſon of thoſe who held that Angels were to be worſhipped with ſacrifices, that he being forbidden, they might be reproued in him. WHIT. pag. 72. John did not as you ſay; for neither offered he any ſacrifice…, neither affirmeth he that he diſſembled; but ſaith directly: I fell downe to worſhip before him. You on the cōtrary ſay, he fell not downe to worſhip. And your Thomas vponupon Apoc. 19. ſaith, S. John intended to worſhip with Dulia. And vponupon Apocal. 22. with Latria.Rev 19Rev 22 See thou doeſt it not, Apoc. 19.10 & 22 9. Tob. 12.Rev 19:10Rev 22:9Tob 12I am thy fellow ſeruant, and one of thy brethren: worſhip God. As for Raphael inttDVR. The auncient Fathers hauehave cited the booke of Toby, a… Irene, Cyprian, H…la. WHIT. pag. 73. Then will it follovv: th…t out of what booke ſoeuer the Fathers hauehave alledged any teſtimony, it muſt be of the Canon, & …o the 3 & 4. bookes of Eſdra; for Augustine, Cyprian, & Ambroſe cite them, yet your Church reiecteth them. DVR. Hierome putteth them out of the Iewiſh Canon, not of the Canon of the Church. WHIT. pag. 74. It is ſtrange thoſe Fathers ſhould make them Canonicall, when i… Hieromes time long after them, they were not; no they were neither in the Canons of the Church, nor of the Ievves Canon. Hieron. in Praſat. in lib. Salom. DVR. Your Engliſh Synagogues reade Toby very much. WHIT. pag. 76. And other Apochryphae…, but accounteth them not in the Canon. Tobie, we paſſe not greatly, neither do acknowledge thoſe ſeauen Angels of whom he ſpeaketh. All that which was ſpoken of Raphael, or which he ſpeaketh of himſelf, i… far differing from the holy Scriptures, and it ſauoureth ſtrongly of ſuperſtition. The place of Eccleſiaſticus doth not much trouble me, neither ſhould I the ſooner beleeueuuDVR. pag. 76. If you de…y free wil… to man by nature; a…d that be cannot but ſinne, you establiſh the Fate of the S… ickes. WHIT. pag. 77. No more, then vvhen vve ſay Angells neceſſarily doe good, and diuels euer euill. Againe vve deny not mans freewill to naturall and ciuill actions, but to the duties of faith; becauſe till the ſonne hath made him free, he muſt needs be a ſeruant of ſinne. free will, though he an hundred times ſhould repeate p. 37that ſentence;Eccleſiast. 15.17. Gen. 6.5.Gen 6:5 before man is life and death: ſeeing that thexxDVR. The Scripture doth not teach that men hauehave lost free will by nature. WHIT. p. 78. What then meaneth it, 1. Cor. 2.14. If man cannot vnderſtand the things of God and eternall life, how can hee will them or doe them? Phil. 2.13. The will and deede is wrought in vsus by God. Gen. 6.5. If hee can thinke nothing but euill, where is free will?1 Cor 2:14Phil 2:13Gen 6:5 Scripture teacheth that man loſt his freedome by ſinne: the ſame thing teach theyyDVR. The Fathers doe not deny free vvill. WHIT. pag. 79. August. Enchirid. cap. 30. Ambroſe de vocat. gent. cap. 9. Bernard de libr. arb…t. doe deny it. Fathers alſo, and eueryevery mans owne experience: howſoeuer theſe words may be vnderſtood of mankind, as he was ſometime in Adam. For thus he writeth a little before.Eceleſi…it. 15. verſ. 14. He made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his owne counſaile; if he ſpeake of the firſt condition and ſtate of man, and of his perfect and vncorrupt nature, wherein he was created of the Lord, he ſpeaketh very true: but if he made it now free for vsus, as we are naturall men, to chuſe or refuſe life or death at our owne pleaſure; I am not ſo bound by the authoritie of this booke and teſtimonie, but that I may appeale from his Apochryphall ſentence to the tried Oracles of God. Now for your booke of thezzDVR. No Church euer reiected the booke of the Macchabees. WHIT. pag. 83. The Church of the Iewes did wholy: and the Church of the Chriſtians as I hauehave ſhewed before. Yea, Gregory, the great, who was Biſhop of Rome, in Iob. lib. 17. Cap. 16. denies them to be in the Canon. And the Fathers, though they cite them as he did, yet ſo accounted them for no better. DVR. Auguſtine placeth them in the Canon. WHIT. pag. 83. Yet Gregory vvho liued 200. yeeres after him, denies them to be Canonicall, beſides Augustine ſo calleth them, becauſe the Church of Chriſtians read them, and did not reiect them ſo as the Ievves did. August. de ciuitat. De… lib. 18. cap. 36. & August. cont. Gauden. lib. 2. cap. 23. further, Duraeus, confeſſeth that they were neither written by a Prophet, nor confirmed by a Prophet: then certeine it is they are not in the Canon. DVR. Christians must be ruled by the iudgment of the Catholike Church. WHIT. pag. 85. The Catholike Church cannot make thoſe bookes which are not Canonicall to be Canonicall: beſides I hauehave ſhewed, that the Catholike Church doth reiect them. Macchabees, I make far leſſe account of it, which Hierome, Epiphanius, Athanaſius, Cyprian, hauehave hiſſed out, and the Leodicene Councel hath reiected. Moreouer that which is therein ſpoken of the ſacrifice offered vp for the ſinnes of the dead, is meerely matter of ſuppoſall, and forced into the text: for neither in Ioſephus is any ſuch thing to be found in the p. 38Greeke, neither in Ioſephus the ſonne of Gerion, who yet writ the ſelf-ſame hiſtory in Hebrew, is there any mention of any ſuch ſacrifice, neither had theaaDVR. The Iews Machzor ſheweth that they do pray and offer ſacrifice for the dead. WHIT. pag. 85. I much …egard not what the Ievves do now: I affirmed that the old Ievves had neither precept nor practiſe for it. Iewes either by precept, or practiſe any ſuch cuſtome, to offer ſacrifice and prayers for the dead. Laſtly in the Greeke copy there is that inuerſion and diſordered placing of the words, that you can hardly make any true ſenſe, or any whole ſentence hang together. View the place in the Greeke text, and if you can fitly tranſlate it ſo, that all things may hang well together, I will yeeld, you are a better Grecian then I tooke you for. Shall I be tied then by the authority and force of this booke, place, or ſentence, to offer with you prayers and oblations for the dead? you are too too childiſh, Campian, to thinke ſuch things can incline the Students of our Vniuerſities to like your ſide: other manner of matter muſt you bring, and of more force, if you will gaine our fauourable audience and good conceite: for theſe things long agoe we hauehave diſtaſted and ſpit out; but who euer ſaid, your ſelfe excepted, that this place of the Macchabees doth proue and confirme inuocation of Saints? It is one thing to offer ſacrifice for the dead, and another thing to ſay that the Saints departed make interceſſion for vsus. As for Iudas bbDVR. Many things were declared to the Prophets by dreames. WHIT. pag. 87. Muſt I therefore beleeue eueryevery dreame written in the Apochrypha bookes, as diuine oracles? neither did that dreame make the Macchabees pray to Onia or Jeremie, but to the Lord only. 2. Mac. 15.21. DVR. The Ievves thought that Christ had praied to Eliah, vvhen Matth. 27.47. he ſaid Eli Eli Lamb. &c. therefore praying to Saints vvas familiar and common vvith them. WHIT. pag 87. It is plaine that the Iewes ſaid this only to deri…e Chriſt, whom they thought God had forſaken, and therefore he fled to Eliah for helpe.2 Macc 15:21Matt 27:47dreame touching Onia, of which we read 2. Macchab. 15. I paſſe it ouer as a dreame: but the matter is not great whether you vnderſtand the interceſſion of the dead, or oblations for the dead: both is yours, and both moſt falſe. And heere againe you cry out with great vehemency; Is it true indeed? is there ſuch frowardnes, is there ſuch preſumption among men? heere is neither p. 39the one, nor the other, Campian… we hauehave done nothing frowardly; nothing preſumptuouſly: I wonder at your frowardnes and preſumption, that thoſe bookes which God diſclaimes, as none of his, which reuerend antiquitie hath put out of the Canon; yet you in your horrible & deteſtable frowardnes & preſūption, will bring into the Canon, whether God wil or no, the holy Fathers denying them, & the bookes themſelues diſclaiming it. The Caluinists, ſay you, hauehave cut off from the body of the old Testament, Theſe are Ba…uch, Tob…as, Iud…th, Su…ent a. Ec…ejias…icus. t…o Macchabees. H…ron prae f…t. in Ier.ſeauen whole bookes: Why you ſhameleſſe Frier, did not Hierome a thouſand yeeres before Caluin was borne, race them out? Why then ſlippe you ouer Hierome, and quarrell with Caluin only, when they are both in one predicament? Heare yet againe what Hierome ſaith. Whatſoeuer is beſides theſe bookes, is to be accounted Apocrypha: but theſe ſeauen bookes which you reckon vp, and calumniouſly auouch that we hauehave raced them out, are beſides thoſe Hierome makes mention of; they are then to be accounted Apochrypha. For moſt of theſe we hauehave ſufficiently anſwered. For Baruch, Hierome ſaith, We neither reade it, nor find it in the Hebrew; all the other he caſteth out of the Canon,Hieron ad Domnion, & Rogatian. and writeth freely. Thoſe bookes which are not to be found in the Hebrew, neither are any of the 24. are tobe reiected of thoſe, who are of ripe yeeres and knowledge. But you Ieſuits are alway Children, as the Egyptian Prieſt anſwered Solon touching the Grecians. I wonder why you ſay neuer a word touching the third and fourth booke of Eſdra: it may be you are aſhamed of them, being bookes, as Hierome writeth, full of dotages: yet your Church hath had them in great account, and the Fathers often times hauehave alledged teſtimonies out of them; why do you, Campian, ſuddeinly daſh theſe bookes out of the Canon? If you iudge they muſt be kept in the Canon, why doe you not taxe the Caluiniſts, who, as all men p. 40know, hauehave cut them out of the old Teſtament? Why when you number vp all thoſe ſacred bookes, cut out of the Canon by the Caluiniſts, omit you theſe altogether? Or if theſe be Apocrypha, why ſhould we deeme the reſt to be Canonicall? I am not a little deſirous to know, what is your iudgement of theſe bookes: but you ſay further:Epist. Iacob. Ep ad Heb. Epist. Juda. Epist. 2. Pet. Epist. 2. & 3. Ioan. The Lutherans hauehave cut off Saint▪ Iames Epistle, and for ſpite of it, fiue others, which ſomewhere elſe alſo were once called in question. That theſe were once and elſewhere in queſtion, you cannot deny. The light and euidence of the ſtorie hath wrung this from you. But tel vsus who made queſtion of them? Did heretikes onelyonly? Then account Euſebius & Hierome amongſt heretikes, who hauehave reported to vsus their owne iudgement of theſe Epiſtles, with the iudgement of the Church. Can you prooue that they were accounted heretikes, in the firſt and pure ages of the Church, who tooke out of the Canon theſe Epiſtles? For the Epiſtle of Saint Iames, I hauehave anſwered ſufficiently: we neither reiect that, nor any of the other Epiſtles, which you falſely accuſe the Lutherans to hauehave cut out; this is no fauit of ours, whom you knowe to be farre from Lutheraniſme: quarrell then with them: as for vsus, we neuer cunningly ſhifted off the teſtimonies and allegations of thoſe Epiſtles. Can you in equitie require any more of vsus? At length then forbeare to vpbraide vsus with I knowe not what deſperation, frowardnes and preſumption: wee willingly admit, receiue, and allow of your owne bookes, which your ſelfe make vſe of in diſputation; to their iudgment will we ſtand, if you can conuince vsus by theſe you winne the field.

That which you adde of the booke of Eſter, and of almoſt three whole chapters of Daniel, is nothing but cauilling. The booke of Ester we account Canonicall, as much as by Gods authoritie is p. 41written inbbDVR. As if the Hebrevv tongue were the rule of the Canon, and of diuine authority. WHIT. pag. 90. No booke is a part of the new Teſtament, which is vvritten in Latin, yet is not Greeke the rule of the Canon. Hebrew: but thoſe fragments, which commonly are annexed to that holy hiſtory of Eſter, we cannot ſo highly account of: as for thoſe three chapters, they are none of Daniels, of which read, if you pleaſe,ccDVR. Hicrome to Ruffinus, ſeemeth to approue thoſe three chapters of Daniel. WHIT. pag. 92. Eraſmus noted that Hierome delt craftely, hauing in his preface ſhevved he thought othervviſe. Hieromes preface vponupon Daniel. And there you ſhall find, that not the Anabaptiſts only, but the auncient Iewes hauehave reiected and derided them. But, Campian, why doe you trifle thus? were you wont to build much vponupon the authority of thoſe bookes? did you in theſe lay the foundations of your faith? why then do you ſeeke to make vsus odious by theſe bookes, which if they were neuer ſo Canonical, would further your cauſe neuer a whit the more?

Now you much commend Augustines modeſtie. VVho, August. de doctrin. Christ. lib. 2. cap. 8.ſay you, hath made a Catalogue of the bookes of holy Scripture, farre better then either the Iewes, or Sectaries. I could wiſh you Ieſuits had a little more modeſtie, that ye might be more like Augustine; for all men ſpeake and cry out of your male pertnes and inſolency. But Augustine counted thoſe bookes Canouicall, which we do not; true, I deny it not, but what of that? is not Augustine oppoſite to Hierome? for Hierome expreſſely denies thoſe bookes to be nūbred in the Canon. And Augustine ſetting downe the whole Canon of the Scripture, doth annex theſe to it. It ſeemeth there is a great difference in their iudgements: for thoſe which Hierome denies, Augustine affirmeth to be Canonicall: both famous men and ſuch as hauehave deſerued well of the Church of God; how then may we ſatisfie Augustine, whom Campian obiecteth vntounto vsus? No otherwiſe then as the truth is. The termes of Apochrypha and Canonicall Hierome vſeth in one ſenſe, and Augustine in another: Hierome accounted all theſe bookes Apochrypha, which were not written in Hebrew: Augustine though in deed and in truth he differed not, yet he gaue this name eſpecially to thoſe bookes, which p. 42were not fraught with fables and lies, ſuch as thoſe times afforded very many. For ſo he writeth lib. 15. cap. 23. de ciuit. Dei. Though there be ſome truth found in the Apochrypha bookes, yet they hauehave no Canonicall authoritie, there being ſo many lies in them. Therefore he names in the Canon the booke of Iudith and Toby and Eccleſiasticus, & other of that ſort, becauſe there was more truth and ſinceritie in them, then in thoſe common and diuulged fables. Therefore Augustine vſeth the terme of Canonicall Scripture more largely then Hierome, and of Apochrypha more ſtrictly: vnleſſe happily we will ſuppoſe that of ſet purpoſe Augustine would differ from Hierome in a thing of that moment. Beſides the Romiſh Cardinal,Caietan. in fine comenta. in histor. veter. Testameuti. of whom we ſpake before, writeth that certeine Councels with Augustine accounted theſe bookes Canonicall becauſe they were rules for manners, not for faith and doctrine. And what reaſon Augustine had to plead for the booke of Wiſdome, De predest. Sanct. c. 24.leaſt it ſhould be turned out of the Canon, let him looke to it himſelfe; this very booke Hierom, (whom you Ieſuits vſually preferre before Augustine) hath by name excluded, and from the ſelfe-ſame place where Augustine confirmeth the authority of this booke, eueryevery man may gather, that it was not commonly receiued in the Canon; for when Augustine cited a teſtimony out of that booke. He was taken away, Wiſd. 4.11.Wis 4:11least wickednes ſhould alter his vnderstanding, many of the brethren who were preſent cried out; It was not alledged out of a Canonicall booke. ddDVR. But you reuiue not Auguſtines anſvvere, and hovv he obiected against them, the conſent of all Biſhops, faithf…ll Laitie. &c. WHIT. pag. 97. Augustine doth not accuſe them of impudency or ſacriledge for denying it, nor reprou…s them much, only he ſaith it is better then other treatiſes; vvhichwhich I acknovvledge. And the conſents of the former he alledged to proue that a ſentence of this booke, is not lightly to be reiected, ſeeing many Churches did reade it, though all did not receiue it, as himſelfe ſaith de ciuit. Dei lib. 27. cap. 20.Now it is like, they neuer would hauehave reiected the argument and teſtimony of this ſpeech, if the authoritie of that booke had been Canonicall in the Church. And yet I denie not but that Antiquitie might thinke more reuerently of this booke, then of other of the bookes of Apochryphaes. For I p. 43obſerue in Euſebius, thatccDVR. Melito affirmeth this booke to be Canonicall. WHIT. pag. 98. Be it ſo, yet he reiectes all your other and what hauehave you got by it? But by the name of Wiſdome ſome thinke, he meaneth the Prouerbs of Salomon. Melita, the Biſhop of Sardis, in a certeine Epiſtle written to Oneſimus, wherin he ſetteth downe exactly the number of the ſacred bookes of the old Teſtament, and accounteth this booke as one of the Canon: yet he mentioneth not one of the others which we call Apochrypha, neither Toby, nor Iudith, nor the Macchabees, nor Eccleſiasticus, nor yet any of the reſt, for which you ſtriue ſo much; yet he affirmeth that he tooke great paines to know exactly thoſe auncient bookes, and profeſſeth that he fully attained his end.Euſebius lib. 4. cap. 26. After, ſaith he, I had learned exactly what bookes belong to the old Teſtament, I ſent them here vnderunder written vntounto you. And this it may be induced Augustine to attribute the more to this booke, and yet it cannot be proued hence, as you would hauehave it, that this booke was Authenticall and Canonicall by the account of the Church, for Augustine himſelfe witneſſeth that it was not allowed as Canonicall by the iudgement of the Church; neither indeed if the Church would hauehave giuen it all the allowance ſhe could, could ſhe hauehave made it Authenticall, except it had before it owne Authenticalnes in it ſelfe from aboue.

But you who glory ſo greatly in Antiquitie, in the voice of the Church, in Councels, what will you anſwere to the Laodicene Councell,Concil. Laodic. Canon. 59. which forbids the reading of thoſe bookes, which are without the Canon, and commaundeth the reading of thoſe only which are of the Canon of the old and new Teſtament:ffDVR. It hath been anſwered a thouſand times, that as yet in this age all the bookes vvere not receiued into the Canon. WHIT. pag. 102. Then by your confeſſion, for 300. yeeres after Chriſt theſe bookes were not in the Canon; it skilleth not much what the latter Churches hauehave affirmed, when the pureſt and moſt auncient Churches affirme the ſame wedo. DVR. The Councels of Carthage, Florence, and Trent, hauehave allovved them for Canonicall. WHIT. pag. 102. We acknowledge not the two laſt to be lawfull Councels, the firſt allowed it for manners, not doctrine and faith, and if the authoritie of it bee ſo great with you, then you may not call your Pope vniuerſall Biſhoppe? for that Councell denied it to him. Carthag. 3. cap. 26. distinct. 99. prima ſedis. But which are they? are all thoſe which the p. 44Tridentine Councell hath put in the Catalogue? nothing leſſe, but thoſe only which our Church doth hold Canonicall. If Campian, you will ſtand to the iudgement of this Councell, neither the booke of Wiſdome, nor any one of the other ſhall hauehave place among the Canonicall Scriptures. Now then whatſoeuer Augustine ſhould ſay, if he were aliue, doth not much trouble vsus: for whatſoeuer he ſhould ſay in this kind, he could ſpeake nothing againſt vsus, but it would touch the Fathers of the Laodicene Councell, whoſe decree in this point, touching the Canonicall Scriptures, either he had ſeene, or at leaſt might take notice of it.

Now for the things which follow you ſhew much colour but little reaſon. You call this a horrible and detestable ſhift. Then doe you, Campian, if you can, driue vsus out of this hold. Me thinketh it is ſo ſafe and well fortified, that it will eaſily beare off and repell all your aſſaults. Though, ſay you, their armes be blaſed neuer ſo far abroad by their owne diſciples, though they buy and ſell benefices, though in their ſermons they cry out againſt Catholikes, though they procure them the ſword, racke and gallowes, yet are they ouercome, naught ſet by, horrible in mens ſight, and quite ouerthrowne. But yet young Frier, …ow thus much, by Gods bleſſing we hitherto ſtand vpright on our ſeete, neither euer were we ſoyled at your hands, but hauehave long agoe by the helpe of God ſcattered, ouerthrowne, and put to flight many of your armies. And the whole huge forme of your pontificall and glorious ſynagogue hath long ſince tottered, and in ſhort time will fall to the ground, as Dagon before the Arke; vnleſſe you Ieſuits manfully vphold and ſuſteine it: for it is impoſſible for vsus to be vanquiſhed of you, in the defence of this cauſe. Therfore with good courage and cheerefulnes we purſue this flight, nothing doubting but that the Lord in the end will repreſſe you, and all p. 45the enemies of his name and glorie, and make you his footſtoole. And for that you write, touching buying & ſelling of benefices, if any be yet amongſt vsus, it is but the reliques of your wicked practiſes heretofore among vsus. For you know the cuſtome of the Romiſh Court, you know their filthines, their auarice, their Simony, yea you know how the whole world crieth out, and that continually of your moſt gainfull Marchandizes. HaueHave you now leiſure ſince you left Rome, to prie into our carriage, are all things ſo wel at home, that you can without ſhame find faults abroad? Suppoſe you were now become honeſt and holy; yet you ſhall neuer bee able to cleere your Church of thoſe filthie blemiſhes, wherewith it hath bin deſiled in former times. And if there be any yet amongſt vsus that vſe ſo foule a trade, they are well worthy to heare ſuch reproaches from you, as ſuch practiſes do deſerue. But I maruell the leſſe that you obiect to vsus buying and ſelling of Benefices, when you complaine of our crueltie. Now, good God, are we ſo cruell and you ſo mild? what ſhall I ſay to it or what anſwere may I make? ſure it is, there is nothing more inhumane, then cruelty, or more oppoſite to a Chriſtians vertue: for the diſciples of Chriſt ought to be gentle, clement, and meeke, maſter-like: what then? are we more cruell then you? I will neuer deny this triall, that their cauſe ſhould be iudged the worſt, whoſe cruelty appeares to be the greateſt: I call to witnes all the people of the Chriſtian world, who hauehave yet any ſenſe of humanity and equity remaining in them. Let Italy ſpeake, alſo Germany, Spaine, Fraunce, and our England. It were tedious to recite the horrible murders, the fearefull burnings, and exquiſite puniſhments you exerciſed amongſt vsus. Your cruelty is knowne, and is yet freſh in memory, neither ſhall euer be buried in obliuion: what like to theſe did we euer practiſe, or wherein is our p. 46cruelty ſo great? was it becauſe we ſuffered not our throats to be cut by you, nor receiued your weapons into our bodies, nor laid our neckes vponupon the block, nor willingly gaue vp our liues, that we might giuegive you leaue to liue as you liſt. This is it indeed you wiſhed for, for this you labour, and goe about: we poore wretches are accounted cruell, becauſe we liue, and liue to withſtand your proceedings. But I doubt not but all indifferent men do ſufficiently diſcerne,ggDVR Campian himſelfe had experience of your cruelty. WHIT. pag. 105. If Campian was by publike proceeding condemned for treaſon, and put to death: who will accuſe our cruelty, and not the greatnes of his offence, yea and that he ſuffered not for religion, appeareth thus; others who were condemned with him at the ſame time, and for the ſame offence, when they renounced the Popes authority of depoſing of Kings, and freeing of ſubiects from obedience, were not put to death, as he was. how iniuriouſly you lay this crimination vponupon vsus, for theſe things which you name as the ſword, the racke, the gallowes, and fier, are the inſtruments of your cruelty, and had it not been for theſe, your Church had been ouerthrowne long agoe: for by theſe weapons it was firſt founded, after increaſed, and is now maintained? if once theſe faile you, queſtionleſſe it cannot long continue.

But you now begin to preſſe your aduerſaries ſomewhat more forceably; and you demaund of them, for example ſake, by what authority they maime; and robbe the corpes of the Bible, I anſwere we offer no violence to this body, ne…ther do we cut off any which doe appertain to the ſubſtance, and perfection of it; we daſh out no part of it, we pull away no member. For (to vſe your owne words) we do not cut out any true Canonicall Scriptures, but cull out ſuch as are not Canonical, but foiſted in and counterfeit. But you would know who ſhal be iudge; you make Caluin to anſwere for vsus: the holy Ghost: and you ſuggeſting that he giueth this anſwere, to eſcape the iudgement of the Church; if you enquire how we know theſe writings, which we call Scriptures, to be heauenly, and giuen by the inſpiration of God, that is, by what teſtimony we are perſwaded that thoſe writings are holy Scripture, which are ſo called: I would aske you with as much reaſon another queſtion, how know you the ſonne is the ſonne, p. 47or how ye come not to doubt, that God is God: for we verely hauehave as much certeinty that th…ſe bookes are the ſacred Scripture, commended of the Lord to the Church, written by the Prophets and Apoſtles, proceeding from diuine authoritie, as that the Moone is the Moone, yea as wee are ſure of any thing elſe, which by vndoubted knowledge we are full aſſured of; this anſwere Caluin alſo hath giuen you,Iustit. lib. 1. cap. 7. ſect. 4. cap. 8. toto. writing that many things might be produced, which would eaſily proue, that if there be a God in heauen, the Law, the Prophets, and the Goſpell came from him: yea and with many words at large he vrgeth it with moſt ſtrong arguments, ſuch as may ſatisfie any reaſonable man touching the authoritie, and credit of the Scriptures. There are in the bookes themſelues proofes enough, both certeine; and perſpicuous, which will proue and demonſtrate the credit of the Scriptures, that no man need boubt of them. But becauſe the ſenſe and reaſon of man is often times weake, and eaſily diſtracted into diuers and doubtfull cogitations, the inward and hidden teſtimony of the ſpirit muſt be had, that men may firmely reſt in the Scriptures. For though outward teſtimonies will ſo conuince vsus, that for ſhame we cannot deny the Scriptures to be the word of God; yet then only do we attaine a certeine and ſauing ful aſſurance, when the ſame ſpirit, which writ and publiſhed them, doth perſwade our harts of the credit of them. And this is that ſpirit, which the Lord hath promiſed to his Church, and which dwelleth in the harts of the faithfull, and is as a ſeale vntounto them, he that hath not this ſpirit, ſhall euer in himſelfe be vncerteine and doubtfull, though he heare the Church a thouſand times. What is the fault then you find, Campian? Caluin, ſay you, doth make the ſpirit Iudge thereby to eſcape the iudgement of the Church, by whoſe authoritie all ſpirits are tried. The iudgement of the p. 48Church ought not to differ from the iudgement of the ſpirit: the ſame ſpirit gouerneth the wholehhDVR. What an abſurd thing is this, that you contemne the voice of the Church, and allow your common people to iudge rather of the Script…res, and giuegive all to the ſpirit; when the Fathers hauehave obiected the Church againſt heretikes? WHIT. pag. 109. We contemne not the voice of the firſt Church, wherein theſe were written, and from thē commended to ſucceeding Churches. But, pag. 108. we much regard not the voice of your Romiſh Church; for as we know there is a God, though it tell vsus not ſo much: ſo that the Scriptures are the word of God, though it be ſilent; and by the ſame grounds that your Church knoweth the Scriptures to be the Scriptures, by the ſame proofes may eueryevery priuate Chriſtian know them. pag. 111. If you know not, that the grace of the ſpirit is neceſſary to diſcerne the Scriptures, then reade theſe places John 14, 26. 1. Iohn 2, 26, 27. 1, Cor. 2, 14, 10. Eſay 51, 16. Now the ſame ſpirit who w…it them, ſeales them vp to vsus: without which ſome knowledge may be had of them, b…t no faith; we may acknowledge them, but not certeinly beleeue them without the ſpirit. And if the Fathers hauehave obiected the Church againſt heretikes, in the like caſe we will do the ſame. For the teſtimony of the ſpirit is not of validity to confute others, but to confirme our ſelues.John 14:261 John 2:261 John 2:271 John 2:1Isa 51:16 Church and eueryevery particular beleeuer. But your Church knoweth not this ſpirit; no maruell then if it diſlike the iudgement of the ſpirit: yet I would hauehave you take this for an anſwere once for all: that the authority of the Scriptures doth not depend vponupon the iudgement of the Church: for let the Church iudge what it will, yet can it neuer by all the authority it hath make the Canonicall bookes to be no Canonicall; and that thoſe which are not Canonicall, ſhould be had in reputation as Canonical. The Scripture hath it owne proper authority in it ſelfe, not borrowed frō another. And as little can the Church add authority to the Scripture, as it can to God, the authour of it. But ſay you, how commeth it to paſſe, that the Caluinists ſpirit alloweth ſix Epistles, which the Lutheran ſpirit doth diſallow? you go in a ring, making only the repetition of the ſame things without any proceeding. Thoſe Epiſtles the LutheransiiDVR. That the Luthe…an… do not like theſe Epi…iles, t…ey of Magdeburg. Centur. 1. lib. 2. cap. 4. tell vsus plainely. WHIT. pag. 117. What is that to vsus who thinke as honorablie of them as you do? but if they, by the example of auncient …hurches hauehave ſpokē ſomewhat hardly of thoſe Epiſtles, is there heere any ſuch difference of …pirits? All things are not reue…led to all a like: all hauehave not the like meaſure of the ſpirit. If any be otherwiſe minded, God will in his time reue…le …t to him. doe not reiect, nor daſh them out of the new Teſtament; yea p. 49they acknowledge them, they make vſe of them in vnfoulding of controuerſies, they expound them in their ſchooles and churches, and they reade them both priuately and publikely: vponupon many of them Luther hath writtenkkDVR. By the ſame reaſon, if Luther ſhould comment vponupon certeine of Aeſops fables, and Illyricus vponupon al, then by their ſpirit they are certeinly receiued into the Canon. WHIT. pag. 117. And why may not Aeſops fables be in the Canon, if your Church pleaſe; ſeeing your VVolfangus & Hermannus affirme, the Scriptures are of no more authority, then thoſe fables without the authority of your Church? But I adde if you would hauehave ſeene it, that they vſed them in preaching, in expounding Scriptures, in deciding controuerſies, and did interpret them both priuately and publikely. Commentaries, Illyricus vponupon all. That of the authority of thoſe Epiſtles in times paſt the Catholike Church made ſome doubt, they diſcouer to their Auditors, and ſhew withall the cauſes of that doubt, and that done, leaue it vndetermined. I pray you, Campian, what contradiction find you heere, betwixt the ſpirit of the Caluiniſts and the Lutherans? Yet ſtill you cauil at this iudgement of the ſpirit, which of all other is moſt certeine and heauenly: and heere you produce Anabaptiſts, Caſtalio, Brentius, Kemnitius, Luther, and Beza. And by theſe you hope that you may diminiſh the authority of the ſpirit.Sixt. Senenſ. lib. 7. The Anabaptists, (ſay you) call the hiſtorie of Iob a fable, interlaced with tragicall and Comicall matters. As though we were ignorant, how wickedly and blaſphemouſly they conceiue, not only of the hiſtory of Iob, but alſo of the whole bookes both of the new and old Teſtament; and that ſpirit of the Anabaptiſts, what was it but a kind of frency, and a violent and head-ſtrong madnes; which no ſpirit euer did more repreſſe, thenllDVR. The Anabaptists will aſwell accuſe the ſpirit of Calnin of madnes and ſolly. WHIT. pag. 119. Yet I durſt make you iudge of this controu…fie, & vnles you were alſo as mad, you would iudge them very vnlike. the Caluiniſt and Lutheran ſpirit? Why then doe you mention their madnes, therby to ſcoffe at the certeine iudgements of the holy Ghoſt?Prafat. in Cantic. Castalio, ſay you, made no more account of Salomons Song, then he did of a bandy ſong and ribauldous talke of a Courtly waiting maide with her louer. I will not take vponupon me to defend all that any man hath written at randome, much leſſe will I trouble my ſelfe to defend the credit of Castalio, whom I well know hath erred in many great points p. 50very ſhamefully. Yet in this place I find you hauehave notably abuſed Castalio: for in that ſhort preface which he hath ſet before this booke, he hath none of thoſe you ſpeake of, neither a ſong, nor a LoueLove, nor courtly waiting maides, nor wanton talke, nor any ſuch thing, but hath truly, learnedly, and modeſtly in few words compriſed the ſumme of the whole booke: his firſt words are theſe: A conference betwixt the Sauiour and his Church. Now you may ſee how highly Caestalio accounted of this ſong, and how ſhameleſſe your cauill is againſt him. I cannot now be much offended with you, for caſting ſo many falſe things vponupon Caluin and Luther, when you are not aſhamed ſo palpably to bely Caſtalio. And that you ſay next touching the Reuelation, is much like to the reſt of your cauils. In it, ſay you, Luther, and Brentius, Praefat in Apo…al. lib. 3. cap. 24. & cap. 39.and Kemniſius, find, I know not what, lacking. What is the meaning of this, They find ſomewhat lacking? do they reiect it, do they diſallow it? you cannot ſay ſo: therefore you ſpeake faintly and diffidently: They find ſomewhat lacking. Howſoeuer, if you will reade Euſebius, you ſhall vnderſtand that in it many things were found lacking, and that it was not receiued of all, yea plainly reiected of many. But what is this to vsus, when as you cannot deny wee hauehave receiued this booke, and do no leſſe reuerence the myſteries that are in it, then your ſelues? and perhaps it had fitted your turne well, if this booke had either periſhed, or been of no credit at all: for it doth ſo liuely paint out your Pope, & your purple whore in her colours, that it cleerely diſcouereth to all men, who is Antichriſt.

HaueHave you yet any thing more againſt Luther? Praefat. in nouum Teſtamentum.Luther, ſay you, casteth a boue among the foure Euangelists and preferring S. Pauls Epistles farre before the three former Gospels, in the end concludeth, that the only Gospell of S. Iohn from henceforth is to be taken for the gay, the true, and the principall Gospell; Luther indeed p. 51preferreth the Goſpell of Iohn before the other three, becauſe he ſetteth downe the Acts of Chriſt more briefly, and his Sermons more fully. Now a Goſpell conſiſteth rather in heauenly doctrine, then in the hiſtory of things done. Yet he denies not but that the other Goſpels are well ſet out, true, and very excellent; and farre is he from eſteeming this the only gay and true Goſpell. Now this very point you ſpeake of heere, I find alſo in the preface of the firſt Epiſtle of S. Peter. And I would intreate the Chriſtian reader to take thorough notice of this thing, ſo ſhall he eaſily perceiue both Luthers integritie, and Campians cauilling. Firſt Luther teacheth what a Goſpell is: and writeth that a Goſpell ſignifieth nothing elſe, But the preaching and publiſhing of the grace, and mercy of God by the Lord Christ, merited and purchaſed to vsus by his death. He that either preacheth or writeth this grace and mercy of God in Chriſt, he, as Luther affirmeth, teacheth the Goſpell. And therefore not the foure Euangeliſts only hauehave taught the Goſpell; but alſo all the Apoſtles hauehave done ſo too, and eſpecially Saint Paul & Saint Peter in their Epiſtles. And moreouer he affirmeth, that of all thoſe they are the beſtmmDVR. VVhat Scripture teacheth vsus, that be is an Euangelist, which teacheth iustificatio by faith only? Jf any, then Luther was the best Euangelist. WHIT. pag. 125. I can recken you vp many, but theſe may ſuffice, Eſay 52▪ 7. Rom. 10.15. Now peace …iſeth of our reconciliation with God and remiſſion of ſinnes, which things faith only layes hold on. Rom. 5.1. 2, Cor. 5, 19. Rom. 4, 4. And this matter S. Paul principally, in his Epiſtles to the Romans and Galathians, hath fully and plainly handled, and not Luther ſo much. DVR. But the Angell tau…ht no ſuch thing Luk. 2.10. WHIT. pag 126. If you had looked to the next verſe, you ſhould hauehave found that the Angell did te…ch as much in effect.Isa 52:7Rom 10:15Rom 5:1Rom 5:2Rom 4:4Luke 2:10 Euangeliſts, who hauehave therein ſpecially laboured, to teach iuſtification by faith in Chriſt alone: for this is the ſumme of the Goſpell. And hereupon he concludeth that the Epiſtles of Paul may more fitly be called the Goſpell, then thoſe things Matthew, Marke, and Luke hauehave written: for that he doth more fully & plentifully decipher to vsus the grace of God in Chriſt, then thoſe three, whoſe hiſtory is for the moſt part ſpent in the declaration of the Acts and Miracles of Chriſt. And this is the true cauſe wherfore he preferred the Goſpell of S. Iohn and the Epiſtles of S. Paul before the three other Goſpels; p. 52whereby he neither caſteth a bone among the Euangeliſts, nor goeth about to make the Apoſtles partakers of his brawlings; neither hath ſaid any thing either frowardly or prepoſterouſly: for why, I pray you, may we not ſay, that S. Paul hath more cleerely and excellently deſcribed the power of the Croſſe of Chriſt in his Epiſtles, then any of the Euangeliſts in their hiſtorie; when as by it the authoritie of the hiſtorie of the Goſpell is nothing diſparaged? And now I doubt not but I hauehave ſufficiently defended Luthers innocency againſt your rayling and outragious ſaucines.

But yet againe you aſſault Luther: whom you ſay doubted not to taxe S. Lukes Goſpell, Serm. de Phariſ. & Publi.as if it were written in a wanton ſtile, becauſe therein good workes are often recommended vntounto vsus. Was there euer read or heard of the like impudencie, audaciouſnes, and treacherous dealing in any man? The place you note in the margent I hauehave very diligently and heedfully obſerued, that I might diſcerne; wherin Luther hath ſhewed ſuch male pertnes: but I hauehave not found one vnholy, nor diſhonorable terme, vnfit to be giuen to S. Luke, as being an heauenly Euangeliſt. For that which Luther propounds to himſelfe is to take out of mens minds a ſcruple, which S. Lukes often mention of workes might moue in them; leſt any happilie might thinke that S. Luke by often ſpeaking of works, ſhould detract ſomewhat from faith, or place our iuſtification in our workes. And this is, as you affirme, ſaucilie to giuegive S. Luke a wipe; if you can tel me of any greater matter, I will no waies defend or excuſe Luthers malepertnes. But what malepertnes is this of yours, Campian, whom neither the feare of God, nor the reuerence of men, can reſtraine frō writing or diuulging of thoſe things, which your owne conſcience tels you are moſt falſe? and you cannot paſſe by Beza neither without the like Calumnious p. 53cenſure. Who, ſay you, was ſo bould as to reprehend that mysticall word, Hic est calix, n…u…m Testame…tum in ſ…guine meo, qui (calix) pro vobis fundetur, This is the cup of the new Testament in my blood, which (cup) ſhall be ſhedde for you; a… corrupted and depraued. I ſee well where your error is in following that corrupt and adulterous vulgar tranſlation, for foreign, you thus tranſlate.aaDVR. I confeſſe there is a Metonymy in the cup: the cup being put for the blood. WHIT. pag. 130. Then, this cup, is as much, as this blood: Then ſee what a ſentence you hauehave made: This blood is the new Teſtament in my blood, which is ſhed for you. As if Chriſt had ſaid: This blood is the new Teſtament in my blood. And ſo heere are two bloods, and the one in the other. Hic est calix nouum Testamentum. This is the cup of the new Testament: when the words are rather thus to be placed. Hic calix est nouum Testamentum, This cup is the new Teſtament: and foreign being a participle of the preſent tence, you tranſlate by a verbe of the future tence: Qui fundetur, ſhall be ſhed for you: for, Qui funditur, is ſhedde for you. But you dare not goe a haires breadth from the vulgar tranſlation, for feare of incurring that curſe of the Councell of Trent. But heere Theodor Beza apparantly is caught in a haynous crime: for he writeth that Luke hath committed a Soleciſme: what then I pray you? a very foule fact and very intolerable. Is it ſo indeed? how ſhall we then defend Hierome, who writeth that Paul committed ſuch ſoleciſmes in his words, that by no good ordering any good ſenſe could be made of them? In cap. 3. Epist. ad Epheſ.If S. Paul might commit Soleciſmes in his words, why may we not thinke S. Luke may doe as much? and if Hierome without ſinne might accuſe S. Paul, not to ſpeake properly or ſcholer-like; why might not Beza note ſome want of propriety of ſpeech in S. Luke? for you are wide, Campian, if you thinke this any thing diminiſheth the authoritie & dignity of the Scriptures, for Hier…me conſtrueth it quite contrarie. Let vsus looke therefore vponupon the place of the Euangeliſt, that we may iudge where this fault is.

The words runne thus. This cup is the new Testament in my blood which is ſhedde for you. If you change nothing in the words and exclude all incongruitie, p. 54then theſe laſt words, Which is ſhed for you, muſt be referred to the firſt, This cup. And ſo this ſhould be the meaning, This cup is ſhed for you: But not the cup, but the blood of Christ was ſhed for vsus. But you will ſay the cup is put for the wine in the cup. So that whether you will or no, you muſt acknowledge that in theſe words there is a trope or figure: though you Papiſts vſually deny the ſame, and vehemently cry out, none of them is to be taken figuratiuely. But you your ſelues in theſe words make two figures; firſt you take the cuppe for the wine in it, then the wine for the blood of Chriſt, which in no hand you can do without a figure: therefore heereafter ſtand not vponupon words; for if you will now ſtand to the words, you muſt either graunt that the cup was ſhed for vsus, or you muſt admit a ſoleciſme and vnproper ſpeech. If we will read them as Baſill doth;Baſil. in Eth. foreign. Which blood is ſhed for you: the meaning wil be plaine, when theſe words which is ſhedde for you, are referred to the blood of Chriſt. Theſe are Campians collectiōs of ſuch things, wherein our men hauehave offended againſt the authoritie and dignity of the Scripture. Theſe he crieth out do euidently open our diffidence and deſperation, theſe are thoſe things he propoundeth vntounto you, that are moſt learned of the Vniuerſity. Whoſe iudgement I am therefore alſo wel contented to ſtand vntounto, becauſe I well know your learning and wiſdome, together with your ſtudious endeuours in the beſt authors, to be ſuch, that this ſillie fooliſh ſophiſter with all his ſlaunders and lies ſhall neuer be able to remoue or corrupt you: for what matter hath he brought, or what inuention, which may ſeeme to ſauour either of deepe learning, much reading, or witty conceit? Therefore you ſhall do wel to ſet light by the threats of this Philiſtine, and to cleaue with conſtancy to that holy religion which you hauehave learned out of the holy Scriptures: as alſo proceed in that p. 55courſe of vertue and learning you hauehave begun, that the Ieſuits with all their inchauntments may loſe all their labour in ſeeking to ſeduce you.

Hitherto Campian hath buſied himſelf in diſcourſing vntounto vsus, what he could, concerning the holy bookes, being deſirous alſo to deliuer vntounto vsus, ſuch things as we hauehave depraued in our falſe tranſlations: ſaue that, as he ſaith, he reſerues this labour for his old Colledge fellow Gregory Martin, & ſome others, whom he well knoweth will performe it farre more learnedly and copiouſly then himſelfe. Therefore if you thinke good, we will expect this Martin of whom you ſpeake, and whom I ſhall eaſily conceiue to be a man of more learning then your ſelfe, vnleſſe he be a very doult indeed. And I doubt not but we ſhall be able to maintaine our tranſlations, both Latin and Engliſh, againſt your Martin and all your Colleagnes. And as for thoſe petty Doctors whom you laſtly reproach, I neither know them, nor the nature of their offence. But when once your friend Martin ſhall come abroad, who now perhaps is hammering ſome ſpeciall peece of worke, we ſhall learne from him many new and excellent points. This your firſt reaſon ſeemed very iuſt in your conceit to maintaine your glorious challenge of diſputation, with ſome of the learned of our Vniuerſities. But Campian, you had delt a great deale wiſer for your ſelf, if either you had neuer conceiued theſ… reaſons, or ſtreightway vponupon the birth ſmothered them. For before by your great challenge you begat a maruelous and wonderfull conceit of your ſelfe in eueryevery mans mind: and now when they ſhall read… thoſe ſlender reaſons of yours, they will eaſily perceiue, there is no cauſe why you ſhould take ſo much vponupon you, and they wil tontemptuouſly deride you, as you well deſerue, & hiſſe you out of their ſcholes. Therefore the counſell which Archidamu… gaue to p. 56his Sonne headily venturing to right with the Athenians, the ſame doe our Vniuerſitie men giuegive to to you: Either adde to thy might, or abate of thy mind: for no man, Campian, euer tooke more vponupon him, and performed leſſe than you hauehave done. But let vsus ſee what other things you bring vsus.