Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 33 – Section 34
Maister Gilbert Browne.
It appeares to mee that Maiſter Iohn hes found ſome newe reuelation, other then that of Saint Iohn: for he notes no place to vsus: Apoc. 11.8and theſe words of his are no way in S. Iohn. and therfore as an invention of his own head, we will reiect the ſame. Indeede we hauehave in Saint Iohn, That God ſhal giuegive to his two witneſſes, and they ſhall prophecy 1260 dayes clad with ſackcloth But this can no wayes aggree with this purpoſe of his For why there ſhall be but two of thir: and there is more then two hundreth Miniſters in Scotland. And theſe two ſhall prophecie, but our Miniſters are no Prophets (albeit they foretell things oft times that is not true) and all the prophecies, if they prophecie at any time, is of euill and not of good. Theſe two ſhal prophecie but three yeares and ane halfe: but our Miniſters hes prophecied theſe 38 yeares, if preaching be prophecying. And theſe two ſhalbe cled in ſackcloth, but our Miniſters, chiefly of Burrow townes, is clad in fine blak cloth, or ſilk. And ſo forth of manie more differences, as is contained in the 11 chapter of the Reuelation.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
It appeares to you that I hauehave found ſome new reuelation, other then that of Saint Iohn. So did it appeare to the Iewes, that the Apoſtle Paule taught all men eueryevery where againſt the Lawe of Moſes, and yet it was the trueth, Act. 21.28 Act. 26.2….as he himſelfe teſtifies, he ſpake nothing beſide that whilk Moſes and the Prophets fore tolde was to come. So eueryevery appearance is not trueth. It is but the ſcailes that are vponupon your eies, that makes this ſo to appeare to you: For the Scripture of God, and this reuelation of Iohn is ſufficient to vsus to make it manifeſt, that your head is the Antichriſt, & your doctrine is that Apoſtaſie that was prophecied to come: ſo that we neede no newe reuelations, as ye do: for becauſe the reuelations alreadie made by God to his Kirk, and written in his holy Scripture doth not warrand your abhominable and falſe doctrine, and your Popes ſupremacy, whilk is the foundation of all: therefore you and your Kirk flees to vn-written Traditions, & fained reuelations to proue the ſame. As for example, becauſe your Kirk hes not ſo much as a ſillabe in the whole booke of God, to proue that Peters ſeat was tranſlated from Antiochia to Rome, whilk is the whole fundation of all Poperie, Cauſa 24. queſt. 1. cap. Rogamus.therefore your Pope Marcellinus in his canon law, grounds the certaintie of this vponupon a fained reuelation, that Peter by the commandement of God did tranſlate it. But to leaue you with your new reuelations, what hauehave ye for you, for this your appearance? You ſay firſt, becaus I note no place: & next, becaus theſe words of mine, are no wayes in Saint Iohn. Therefore ye conclude it to be an invention of my owne. As to the firſt. Is this a good reaſon, I note not the place, therfore I hauehave found out ſome new reuelatiō: You muſt be ſent to the Logick ſchools againe, to learne the right manner of reaſoning. I noted no place, Ergo I could not, that will not follow. As to the ſecond my words are no waies found in Saint Iohn, Ergo I hauehave foūd a new reuelation? But what if the ſenſe be found? What if the ſelf ſame doctrine be found in Saint Iohn, ſuppoſe not in the ſame words? Then it will not follow that I hauehave founde out a new reuelation, or that this is the inuention of my own braine. This place whilk ye quote heir, Reuel. 11.3. ſufficiētlie confirmes all that I ſaide. For your ſelf will not deny, & Bellarmine, Bellarm lib 3. c. 6 Rhem. in annot. vponupon Apo. cap. 11 Sand. in his demonſtrations.the Rhemiſts, and Sanderus graunts, that theſe two witneſſes are they who ſhall preach in the time of the Antichriſt, ſuppoſe they expound them of Elias and Enoch, & that they ſhalbe perſecuted, and put to death by him. What a blindneſſe is this, Maiſter Gilbert, that hes ouerſyled your eies, that for the writing of that ſame doctrin whilk the ſcripture warrands, your Diuines graunts, and your ſelf will not deny, you hauehave ſaide that it appeared to you, that I hauehave found out ſome new reuelation. But iudge thou (Chriſtian reader) what thou may preſume vponupon Maiſter Gilberts appearances. But you ſay, this aggrees not with my purpoſe: and that becauſe of the differences betweene theſe two witneſſes, & the Miniſters of Scotland. Firſt I do not meane by theſe two Witneſſes the Miniſters of Scotland onlie, but the Miniſters of all the reformed Kirks in Europe, who hes departed out of your Babel, and hes ſhaken off the yoake of the tyrannous bondage of your head, the man of ſinne: and not onlie theſe who now liues, but theſe alſo who now reſts from their labours, and ſleepes in the Lord: of whome a great manie was perſecuted, and put to death by your tyranny, for ſpeaking againſt your abhominations. Now as to theſe differences whilk ye marke: the fountaine from the whilk this ſprings, is your miſtaking of the prophecies of God, and exponing them literally, whilk according to the vſe of prophecies and eſpecially theſe whilk are ſet downe in this Reuelation, & all the circumſtances of this text, ought to be exponed figuratiuelie. Theſe ſame two Witneſſes are called two Oliues, two Candleſtickes, and it is ſaid of them, Reuel. 11, 4.5.6. &c.that fire commes out of their mouthes and deſtroyes their enemies. &c. If you will not be ſo abſurde and ridiculous, as to expone theſe things literallie, but figuratiuelie: otherwiſe ye will make them Monſters, Trees, and Candleſticks: why then doe ye expone this place concerning their number, worke, time, apparell, &c. literallie, and not figuratiuelie as the reſt of their workes, and properties muſt be exponed: the whilk if you had done, then would ye hauehave ſene no difference betweene the Miniſters of the Goſpell that reſiſted your Pope, and theſe two Witneſſes heir: but the one to be the prophecie of the other, and the other to be the accompliſhing of the prophecie. As for their nomber then, they are ſaid to be but two, that is, fewe: & yet ſik a ſufficient nomber, as may proue & qualify any thing by the lawe. For by the lawe: Out of the mouth of two or three witneſſes, ſhall eueryevery word be eſtabliſhed. So the Miniſters of the goſpell in the time of your Antichriſt & darkneſſe, was but fewe at the beginning: and yet ſo manie, as ſerued for to eſtabliſh the trueth of God by their teſtimonie, in the conſciences of ſo manie whome God had appointed to ſaue. As for their worke of prophecying, the Scripture calles preaching, prophecying, …. Cor. 12. & 13. & 19. Annotat. in 11. Reuel.and the Rhemiſtes graunts that theſe Witneſſes ſhal preach againſt the Antichriſt. And whereas you ſay, that we fore-tell oft times things that is not true: this is your calumnie and lie, Maiſter Gilbert, and ſo ought to hauehave no credite. And the prophecies of the Miniſters of this land againſt your Antichriſtian kingdome, ye hauehave found by experience that they hauehave bene too true. And their prophecies are trewer then the prophecies of one of your Popes, Hildebrand, who openlie in the pulpit on the ſecond holy day in Eaſter week, in the preſence of diuerſe Biſhops, …o… in pag. 229.and Cardinals, and of the people and Senate of Rome, prophecied that the King whoſe name was Henrie ſhould die before the feaſt of Peter next enſuing: or at the leaſt, that he ſhoulde be ſo deiected from his Kingdome that hee ſhould not be able any more to gather aboue the nomber of ſex knights. And this he preached with this confirmation, neuer accept mee for Pope any more, if this prophecie be not fulfilled, but pluck mee from the aulter. But he was a falſe Prophet in the ſame, for neither was fulfilled. And whereas ye ſay, if they prophecie at any time, it is of euill and not of good: ſo ſaid Achab of the Prophete of the Lord, 1. Reg. 22.….and therefore he hated him: ſo you ſpeake with the ſame ſpirit againſt vsus, that Achab ſpak with againſt the Lords Prophet. And what good can be ſpoken of your Babel, ſince the Lord hes fore-tolde the ruine of it, & in part hes bene accompliſhed? and ſome of your owne nomber, as Hildegardis, Briget, Catherine de Senis hes for-tolde of the deſtruction of your Kirk, & the reformation of the Kirk of Chriſt. As for the time, Fox. pag. 260.it was ſpoken of before, and I trow ye hauehave thought it too long, and yet be in pa…ience, Maiſter Gilbert, for it muſt continue, and your Babel muſt downe. As for the clothing of ſackcloth, it was the apparell of ſik as was in dolour and in mourning, whereby is ſignified the ſorrowe and dolour that ſhuld ariſe to the true miniſters of Chriſt, throw the perſecution of the Antichriſt and his members, and their idolatrie and abhominations. The whilk hes bene ſo clearly fulfilled in the preachers of the Goſpell ſince Iohn Hus his dayes, and before alſo, euen to this day, that he muſt be blinded of the Lord who ſees it not. And whereas ye caſt vp the clothing of the Miniſtry in this land, ye hauehave forgotten your ſelf, and your Cleargie, and your head the Pope, with his triple crowne, with all the rable of his Prelates, Abbots, Biſhops, Cardinals, &c. as full of riotous pride and pompe, as euer were the Perſians Kings,
His clothes be made of precious ſtones, his gorgeous Miter dight,Bernard de con. ſid ad Eugen. lib. 4. Platin de v…ta pontific. in Paulo 2.
With iewels rare, with gliſtering golde, and with (aA precious ſtone called a carbuncle of the whilk kind, one that fell out of the Popes mytre by a miſchance at his Coronation was worth 6000. crownes Platin in vita Clementis. 5Piropus bright.
O verie Troian-trulles, not Troians.
The pompe and glorie of whoſe court doth ſurmount all the pompe and glorie of all the Princes in Europe, as ſome that hes ſeene it reports. How then can ye iuſtly quarrell our attire? Can you ſay that we paſſe the bounds of that modeſtye and comelineſſe whilk the Apoſtle requires in the ouerſeers of the Kirk of Chriſt, ſeeing you will hauehave all the outwarde pompe and glorie of your Popes and Prelates, according as it was prophecied of you, Reuel. 17. to be cōprehended within the definition of comelineſſe and modeſtie? But you are like the Lamians, of whome it is reported that they had but one eie: and when they went forth they tooke it with them to looke vponupon others: and when they came in their owne houſes, they laide it beſide them: you looke to your neighbours, but ye ouer-ſee your ſelfe. So for all the differences whilk ye hauehave yet aſsigned, it remains ſure that by theſe two Witneſſes heir are ſignified the Miniſters of the Goſpell.
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
But note heir, I pray you, how well theſe new Euangeliſts aggrees in the expoſition of this Reuelation of Saint Iohn: (for all their grounds and proofes is vponupon prophecies & darke ſpeakings) Young Marchiſtoun in his book vponupon the Reuelation, the 11. chap. 3. verſe, expones theſe Witneſſes to be the olde and newe Teſtaments, as he proues in the 21. Propoſition: and Maiſter Iohn will hauehave them the Miniſters. Marchiſtoun ſayes, that to be cled in ſackcloth, is to preach the word of God with the obſcuritie of mens traditions and coloured gloſſes. Maiſter Iohn ſayes heir, that the ſackcloth ſignifies perſecution for the preaching of the worde. The notes on their Geneua Bibles printed at London, expones the ſackcloth to ſignifie poore & ſimple apparell. And Bale vponupon the ſame place writes, that this ſackcloth ſignifies ſober conuerſation. God knowes if this and the like be wholſome doctrine to preach to the poore people, ſome one way, and ſome another, according to the inuention of their owne braines, without any proofes.
Maiſter Iohn Welſhe his Reply.
As for theſe diuers expoſitions whilk ye marke in vsus, that hes ſo ſtirred vp your affectiōs, that ye cry out, God knowes whether this be wholſome doctrine to teach the poore people, or not: I anſwere: that theſe diuerſe expoſitions of ours, are all aggreeable to the Analogie of faith, as your ſelfe will not deny: and therefore cannot be called vn-wholſome doctrine. Otherwiſe, not onlie the Fathers, but alſo your owne Doctors and Biſhops, and Popes hes deliuered vn-wholſom doctrine by your reaſon, for they hauehave exponed innumerable places of Scripture diuerſlie, vvhilk is ſo manifeſt that I neede not proue it, and your ſelf alſo hes deliuered vnwholſome doctrine heir, In the 10 point of your doctrine.for ye expone bleſſing and thankeſgiuing for two contrarie things, and yet Bellarmine ſayes, that ſome Catholickes takes them both for one. And what ſhal I ſay of your diuerſe expoſitions, whilk were tollerable, ſo being they were according to the proportion of faith? Your contradictions one to another: and that not onelyonly in exponing the Scripture, but in the maine points of your religion: ſome holding one thing and ſome another, as partlie hes, and partly ſhalbe marked, are manifolde. And if diuerſe expoſitions of a place of ſcripture be vn-vvholſome doctrine, as ye ſay, then ſurely this point of your Catholick doctrine, whilk teaches, that the Scripture hes a fiuefolde ſenſe, and that it may be ſiue diuerſe wayes exponed, muſt be vn-wholſome doctrine, & then ye loſe more then you can win by this. Bewarre, Maiſter Gilbert, that by this dealing ye bring not your ſelfe in ſuſpition that ye are forſaiking your Catholick faith: for this is a point of it, as Bellarmine reports. Lib. 3. de interpr. Ver. cap. 3As for your calumnies firſt in calling vsus new Euangeliſts, I anſwered to that before: next in ſaying that all our proofes and grounds are vponupon prophecies and darke ſayings: firſt, you iniurie the holie Ghoſt in calling his prophecies darke: for the cauſe of this is not in them, but in our blindnes. Secondly, ye ſpeake too plaine an vntruth: for it is more then manifeſt that not onlie prophecies, but alſo the plaine and ſimple doctrine of the whole Scripture is the grounds and proofes of our Religion, as is manifeſt by the points of doctrine whilk we hauehave handled heir.