Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 15
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
And further, I ſay, of theſe words, 1. Cor, 11, 24This is my bodie whilk ſhall be deliuered for you, whilk is an true propoſition, and therefore this muſt followe. But there was no bodie deliuered for vsus, but the naturall bodie of Chriſt: therefore it was his naturall bodie that he gaue to his Diſciples to be eaten. Then if it were his naturall bodie, it was not natural bread. As Saint Ambroſe expounds the ſame, let vsus proue ſayes he this not to be that that nature formed, but that thing whilk the bleſſing hes conſecrate and greater ſtrength to bee in bleſſing not in nature: for nature it ſelfe is changed by bleſſing. He hes the ſame more amplie in the fourth booke the fourth chapter de Sacramentis
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his reply.
Firſt I anſwere, the words of the Apoſtle is not as yee cite them here whilk ſhall be deliuered, but foreign whilk is broken and in the preſent time, and ſo in Luke foreign whilk is giuen, ſo you are not faithfull in tranſlating this place of Scripture, both contrarie to the Greeke and Syriak copies. VponUpon the whilk I reaſon thus, this propoſition is true, this is my bodie whilk is broken for you. So the Apoſtle ſayes, but Chriſts bodie was not broken then reallie, for not a bone of him was broken at all, as the Scripture teſtifies: Exod 12. Ioh, 19,and the Scripture ſayes and all men confeſſes that he ſuffered but once, ſo only his ſufferings ar ſignified then by the breaking of the bread in the ſacrament here: ſo as Chriſts bodie was not brokē then reallie, that is, ſuffered: but his ſuffering only ſignified by the breaking of the bread, ſo his bodie was not giuen reallie and corporallie to be eaten, but only ſignified. Secondly, I ſay, it is true, that Chriſts naturall bodie was deliuered to the death for vsus: but yet it will not followe vponupon this, that it was his naturall bodie whilk hee gaue to them to be eaten corporallie: for his naturall bodie was reallie delivered to death for vsus: and it was but giuen to them ſpirituallie to be eaten. You muſte coyne a newe Logick M. Gilbert or you can make theſe two ſticke together: and the one neceſſarilie to follow vponupon the other. For by that ſame reaſon you may aſwell conclude, that Chriſt gaue his naturall bodie to be eaten corporallie in the worde, for hee giues himſelfe to a)Ioh. 6.35 Bellarm grants this alſo lib. 1. de Euchariſt. cap. 7.be eaten in his worde aſwell as in his Sacrament, and alſo he giues that ſame body to them in the word, whilk was deliuered to death: for the ſelfe ſame Chriſte is offered and receiued aſwell in the worde as in the Sacrament. So from his bodilie death, to a corporal eating of him, it wil not follow. And further by that ſame reaſon you may aſwell ſay that the fathers before Chriſt vnderunder the law, did eate Chriſts bodie corporallie, for they eate that ſame ſpirituall foode, & drank that ſame ſpirituall drink, in their Sacraments, whilk we doe now in ours. So the Apoſtle teſtifies, euen that ſelfe ſame Chriſt his bodie and blood whiilk was deliuered to the death, & yet it wil not follow, that they did eate his naturall bodie &c. As for Ambroſe, it is true he ſo ſpeakes: but hee expoundes himſelfe in that ſame chapter, while as he ſayes, Before the bleſsing another forme or thing is named, but after the conſecration the bodie of Chriſt is ſignified: If the bread then ſignifie the bodie of Chriſt, it is not changed in his body. And becauſe of this holy vſe to ſignify the body of Chriſt, Ambroſe ſayes that the nature is changed by bleſsing: and that this is his meaning his words following will declare it, where he ſayes. Shall not the words of Chriſt be of force to change the forme of the Elements. …nter ſpecies clementorumIn that ſame ſenſe Ambroſe ſaies, the nature of the elements is changed, in the whilk he ſayes, the forme of them is changed, for he affirmeth both there. But you will not ſay I trowe, vnleſſe you will ouer-throwe your tranſubſtantiation that Ambroſe meanes, that the forme of the Elements is changed in ſubſtance, but onlie in vſe & ſignification, for you ſay the forms remaines, therefore you muſte alſo graunt that Ambroſe meanes not by the change of nature, the change of the ſubſtance of them, but only the change in the vſe of them, from a common vſe to a holy vſe. And becauſe it may be you will delay to ſubſcriue to the trueth of our doctrine, vntill you heare the ſentence and iudgement of the fathers. Therefore, I will ſet them down heere. Co…a Marc l, 4Tertullian ſayes, This is my bodie, that is, a figure of my bodie. Chryſoſtome ſayes, VVhat is that whilk the breade ſignifies, the bodie of Chriſt. Theodoret ſayes, Chryſ. in 1, Cor cap, 10 Theodoret. dial. 1, and 2The breade & wyne is ſignes and figures of the bodie and bloode of Chriſt. And hee ſayes, Our Sauiour in the inſtitution of the Sacrament enterchanged the names and gaue to the ſigne or ſimbole the name of his bodie: and theſe myſticall ſignes of theſe holy things whereof are the ſignes. VntoUnto the whilk he anſweres, are they not ſignes of the body & blood of Chriſt. Hieronymus ſayes That Chriſt by taking of the bread, Hier in Mat. …6 Cyrillus ad …p Matth. 11 Baſ. Liturgi… Nauian. in orat. 2 de Paſ. & funere Gorg. Cyprian lib 1. ep 6. eius contra Adima. cap, 12. & Pſal. 3whilk comforts the hearte of man, repreſenteth the trueth of hi… bodie. Cyrillus ſayes, Our Sacraments auoweth not the eating of a man. Baſilius and Nazianzen calles the bread and wine in the Supper foreign figures or ſignes of the bodie of Chriſt. Cyprian ſayes, The Lorde called breade made of many graines his body and wine made of many grapes, his bloode. Auguſtine ſayes, Our Lord doubted not to ſay: this is my bodie while as be gaue but the ſigne of his bodie. And he calles it the figure of his bodie and blood. And their canon lawe ſayes, De conſecr diſt. 2 cap Hoc eſt.The heauenlie breade whilk is the fleſh of Chriſt, is called after a maner the bodie of Chriſt, while as it is but the Sacrament of his bodie. And the gloſſe there ſayes, The heauenlie breade, that is the heauenly Sacrament whilk repreſents trulye the fleſh of Chriſt, is called the bodie of Chriſt but improperlie. I omit the reſt whilk is exceeding many, and becauſe if you be a right defender of the catholicke faith, you will ſay with the reſt of your Cleargie, that the Pope cannot erre. Therefore a Pope, Gelaſius by name ſayes, Gelaſius de … bus naturis in ChriſtoNeither the ſubſtance of the bread, nor nature of the wine, ceaſses to bee anye more nor they were before: but remaines in their owne ſubſtance. And hee calles them there, an image and reſemblance of the bodie and bloode of Chriſt. Now tell me Maiſter Gilbert doe not theſe ſpeake as plaine as we, will you avowe your Tranſubſtantiation whilk they ſo flatlie denie. And as our Sauiour ſayes, a kingdome deuided againſt it ſelfe cannot ſtand. So the manifolde diuiſions amongſt your ſelues, concerning this tranſubſtantiation, is a verye ſure argument of the falling both of you and your doctrine. Some of you expounds this word hoc. this 1)Bonauenture Ge…ſon contra Florentium, …ib, 4of the breade 2)as Thomas lib, 4. ſeu diſt 8. Occam, in 4. ſe… d. 13, q. 16, 17Some of Chriſts bodie 3)Innocent, 3. de offic. miſ. pag. 3 obiect, 14. & Se… tus in l. 40. d. 8. q. 3and ſome calles it an Indiuiduum vagum 4)Durandus rational. 4ſome ſayes it ſignifieth nothing, 5)Holcot in … ſent, queſt. …and ſome ſayes it ſignifieth a thing whilk is common both to terminus à quo and terminus ad quem.
Secondlie in the expoſition of the vvord est, is. Some for it is: ſome for it is changed: 3. ſome a)Thomas.ſayes the ſubſtance of ye bread and vvine returnes to nothing: ſome ſayes b)The gloſſe of Grati…n and the extra… ga…ts de conſeci. diſt. 2 c. Species. &c. ſi…mit. ex…t. de ſum…a ſ…nitateit paſſes in the bodie of Chriſt. 4. ſome ſayes c)C…on oporte: & …b…gloſ. de c…nſecrat d ſt. 1 &c Cu… Ma…tha pa…a vtrum de c…le miſ.the water in the Sacrament returnes to nothing: ſome ſayes it is changed in the blood with the wyne: ſome ſayes it is d)Thomas 3974 art 8turned in Chriſts vitall humours: ſome ſayes it is turned in the wyne, and after in the blood: ſome ſayes e)…ran. lib, 4 cap. 42they dare not define it. 5. ſome ſayes, f)Thomas epiſt. 59 & 3. queſt 7….the wormes that are bred of the Sacrament commes of the quantitie: other ſome ſayes g)Durand. lib. 3. cap. 41they are bred of the ſubſtance. 6. ſome ſayes Chriſt h)Durand l…b 4. cap 41conſecrated by the worde, he bliſſed: ſome by the i)Maiſt. G…lbert.words, This is my bodie, and the bliſsing together: ſome k)Gloſ. in c. Vtrum in verbis perferri de conſ. diſt. 2vvill hauehave the conſecration to be made in heauen: and ſome franklie l)Scotus in repor diſt. 8. queſt. 2confeſſes that they neither knowe the words nor the nomber of them wh…reby this conſecration is made: and to omitt ſix hundreth the like, I will onlie touch theſe few m)gloſan t…t ibusſome ſaies the body of Chriſt is taken bodilie with the mouth, n)Ca…an. tom. 2. cap. 2, & 3, & 5,ſome ſayes that it feedes, o)G…oſ ibidemſome ſayes as ſone as it is preſſed with the teeth the bodie of Chriſt is caught vp to heauen. p)Durand. ration. lib 4.But other ſome ſayes, it paſſeth from the teeth to the hearte, and then the bodilie preſence ceaſes, q)Bonauenture 4 d…ſt 13. ar. 2. q. 2and other ſome will hauehave him to goe to the ſtomack &c. but not to the minde. And yet hee ſayes hee doubts whether he goes to the belly or not, for the varietie of opinions: and in ſo great varietie he ſayes, what to holde is hard to iudge. And ſuppoſe he holdes it that that the bodie of Chriſt goes not into the bellie of a mouſe or is caſten out into the draught, becauſe, ſayes he, the eares of well diſpoſed perſons would abhorre it, and infidels & hereticks would ieſt at it, and laugh vsus to ſcorne. r)Alexander de hales part. q 45. & Thomas of Aquine part. 3. q 80 art 3 & Antoninus Archebiſhop part. 3. tit, 13 cap, 6Yet ſundry others holdes that not only it goes into the belly, but alſo Chriſts bodie maye bee vomited vp or purged out in the draught, and that brute beaſtes may eat Chriſts bodie and it maye goe into the bellie of dogges and ſwyne. O filthie mouths & vncleane ſpirits, what hereticke, what Capernait was euer ſo groſſe and carnal: yea, ſo barbarous & brutiſh, as ye are. So not only are yee more groſſe nor the Capernaits who thought that ſaying hard: but alſo like the barbarous Canibales who eate the fleſhe of man. O blinde leaders of the blinde, ſhall myſe, dogs, and ſwyne, eate and drinke the precious bodie and blood of Chriſt? ſhall they then hauehave eternall lyfe? I thinke the eares of all Chriſtians will abhorre this your doctrine, and their harts will tremble at it. Ex citatione Smithes ſermon…Theſe abſurdities, together with Scriptures and Fathers againſt the ſame, hes made ſome of your great pillers to ſay as s)Aga nſt the captiu tie o… Babylon made by LutherFiſcher, that no man can prooue by the words of the Goſpell, that any Prieſt in theſe dayes, doth conſecrate the very bodie and blood of Chriſt: and t)Lindanus …b. 6 lib. 4 panop, and Caninus, and Petius a Soto ſa…es, t…aditions hes not their author in the Scripture, ſupra citatiothers, that Tranſubſtantiation is but a tradition whilk hes not the authour of it in the Scripture, nor cannot be defended by the ſame: and others, as u)Tonſtal in the booke of the Sacraments.Tonſtall, that it had bene better to hauehave left euerie man to his owne coniecture, as they were before the councell of Lateran then to bring in ſik a queſtion. I hauehave bene longſome in this, but yet it ſo behoued mee: becauſe it is the ground-ſtone of their ſacrifice of the Maſſe, and their other Idolatries & abhominations. So then to conclude this, ſeing your doctrine of Tranſubſtantiation is aggree-able neither to the doctrine of Chriſt, nor his Apoſtles, nor the ancient Fathers, nor your owne canon Lawe and Pope, as they hauehave bene cited: and ſeing ye are at ſik variances amongſt yourſelues concerning the ſame: therefore it is to be reiected as hereticall, damnable, and blaſphemous by all Chriſtians. And this for the 4. point of your doctrine.