Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 29 – Section 30

Reply Against Gilbert Brown · Section 29 – Section 30

p. 150Maiſter Gilbert Browne.

Further, I ſay, ſince the difference chieflie in religion betwixt vsus & them is about the vnderſtanding of the worde of God, (a)(a)Not we M. Gilbert, but one of the chief pillers of your own Kirk, Caietan a Cardinall (whilk was ſent in Germanie againſt Luther) the Popes legate, who ſaies in plaine wordes that the author of the Epiſtle to the Hebrews doth gather inſufficient arguments, to proue Chriſt to be the Son of God, that the 2. and 3. Epiſtle of Iohn, is not canonicall Scripture, that the Epiſtle of Iude is Apocripha, that the laſt chap. of Mark is not of ſound aut…oritie, that the hiſtorie of the adul…erous woman is S Iohn is not authenticall, and of S. Iames E… ſtle that t…e ſalutation of it is prophane.albeit they deny a great part of the ſame to vsus: What is the cauſe that they will not abyde the tryall of the auncient Fathers of the firſt ſex hundreth yeares, ſeing that they were of his Religion, as he affirmes, If he be as good as his word, the matter wilbe ſone ended. And if our Religion be not found conſonant to theirs in all things (wherein they differ from vsus) we ſhall reforme the ſame.

Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.

You ſaid a little before, Maiſter Gilbert, that the chiefe difference wherein we differ from you is in denying, abhorring or deteſting, &c. Now you ſay, that the difference chiefly of Religion betwixt vsus, is about the vnderſtanding of the word of God. How well theſe two aggrees, let the reader iudge. It is no wonder ſuppoſe you diſſent from your brethren (as I hauehave proued in ſundrie points before) ſeing ye diſſent from your ſelfe. It is true indeede, that many of our controuerſies are about the right ſenſe and vnderſtanding of the ſcripture, but yet if Petrus a Soto, Lindanus, Pereſius, Caniſius, all great and learned Papiſts ſpeake trueth, the moſt part of the waightieſt and chiefeſt points of your religion, whilk are in controuerſie p. 151betweene vsus, are but vnwritten Traditions, whilk hes not their beginning nor authour in the Scripture, and cannot be defended by the ſame. And whereas ye would hauehave vsus to refer the controuerſies about the ſenſe and right meaning of the Scriptures, to be decyded by the writings of the Fathers of the firſt 600. yeares: we receiue their monuments and writings gladlie: but yet ſo, that we put a difference betweene them, and the writings of the holy Ghoſt in the ſcripture. For as I hauehave prooued ſufficientlie before, as I hope, that onelie the Scriptures of God hes this prerogatiue, to be y^e ſupreame iudge of all controuerſies in religion, & no other and the beſt waye to learne the ſenſe of the Scripture, is by the Scripture it ſelf: for ſeing all the Scripture is inſpired of God, therefore it ought to be exponed by God in the ſame. For hee who made the Lawe can beſt interprete the Lawe. And the Leuits practiſed this in the old Teſtament, Nehem. 8 8. Act, 26.2….Neh 8:8who exponed the Scripture by the Scripture: and the Apoſtles in the new Teſtament, who taught nothing but that whilk the Prophets ſayde ſhould come to paſſe. And if a Father, yea a Saint, yea if an Angell would preach beſide that whilk the Apoſtles preached, let him be accurſed. So then, nothing can be a warrand to vsus of the trueth of the ſenſe of the Scripture, but the Scripture it ſelf. And as for the Fathers expoſitions, as they may not be iudge (as hes bene ſaide) becauſe they may erre, and hes erred, as hes bene proued, & your ſelues will not deny: & they diſſent often-times one from another in the expoſition of the ſame. So let their expoſitions be taken in ſo far as they aggree with the Scripture. For would ye hauehave vsus aſcriue that vntounto them, whilk they themſelues hes refuſed, & hes aſcriued vntounto the Scriptures onelyonly?

Heare therefore what Optatus the Biſhop of the Kirk of Mileuitan a learned man who liued about the yeare of God 369. ſayes, writting againſt the Donatiſtes who claimed to themſelues only the title of the Kirk of Chriſt as ye do. They called for a Iudge, be bringes the Teſtament of Chriſt for a Iudge: and ſpeaking to them of a point of religion that was controuerted, whether one ſhould be twiſe baptiſed or not? p. 150duplicate page p. 151duplicate page p. 150duplicate page p. 151duplicate page p. 150duplicate page p. 151duplicate page p. 148he ſayes, You, ſayes he, affirmes it is lawful, we affirme it is not lawfull, betwene your ſay it is lawfull, & our ſay it is not lawful, the peoples ſoules doe doubt & wauer. Let none beleeue you nor vsus, we are all contentious men, Iudges muſt be ſought for, if Chriſtians, they cannot be giuen on both ſides; for trueth is hindred by affection. A Iudge without muſt be ſought for. If a Pagane, he cannot know the Chriſtiā myſterie; if a Iew, Optatus lib. 5. contra Parmenianumhe is an enimie to Chriſtianitie. No Iudge therfore of this matter can be found in earth. A Iudge from heauen muſt be ſought for. But why knock we at heauen when here we hauehave his Teſtament in the Goſpell. And he randers a reaſon of this in that ſame booke. Chriſt ſayes he, hes delt with vsus as an earthly father is wont to doe with his children, who fearing leaſt his children ſhould fall out after his deceaſe, doth ſet downe his will in writting vnderunder witneſſe: and if there ariſe debate among the Bretheren, they goe to the Teſtament. He whoſe word muſt end our controuerſie is Chriſt. Let his will be ſought in his Teſtament, Auguſt. in Pſal. 21 expoſaPs 21(ſaieth he.) Auguſtine vrgeth the ſame reaſon of Optatus againſt the Donatiſtes. We are brethren, ſayes he, to them why do wee ſtriue? Our father died not vnteſtate, he made a teſtament and ſo died. Men do ſtriue about the goodes of the deade whill their teſtament bee brought forth. When that is brought forth they yeelde to hauehave it opened & red. The Iudge doth harken: the Counſellers be ſilent: the Crier biddeth peace. All the people is attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be red and hard. He lieth void of life and feling, and his words preuaile. Chriſt ſitteth in heauen, and is his Teſtament gain-ſaid? Open it let vsus read. We are Bretheren why do we ſtriue? Let our mindes bee pacified, our father hes not left vsus without a teſtament. He that made the testament is liuing for euer, he doth heare our words. He doth know his owne word, Pre…. lib 4. contra hereſ. cap. 65let vsus read, why do we ſtriue. Irenaeus ſayes that the lawfull expoſition of the Scripture whilk hes no perill with it, is according to the Scriptures themſelues. What can be more plaine (Maiſter Gilbert?) And I ask you further? Would you hauehave vsus to aſcriue more to the interpretation of the fathers, nor the learned of your Kirk does? Caietan. in praeſ. in commentatia in lib. Moſi…As Caietan a Cardinall and Doctor. Andradius the firſt ſayes that God hes not tied the expoſition of the Scripture vntounto the expoſition or ſenſe of the fathers, (if God hes not bound it as he ſaies, why then ſhould we bind it:) wherfore their he deſires the reader, not to miſlike it, if ſometimes in p. 149the expounding of them, he fall into a ſenſe agreable to the text, though it goe againſt the ſtreame of the fathers. If he ſpeake trueth, then that ſenſe that is agreable to the text ſuppoſe it bee againſt the ſtreame of their expoſitions, is to be receaued & preferred before them. And Andradius that learned man ſayes, Andra. defen. ſid. Trident lib. 2. At whoſe gifts the Italians wondered at, Oſo ep. praefixa Andrad. fid. Trident. def.that the fathers ſpake not Oracles when they exponed the Scriptures, but might therein be deceiued. And he ſayes more that the ouer-ſights of the tranſlation whilk they followed, muſt needs cauſe them ſomtimes to miſſe the meaning of the holy Ghoſt: and yet you woulde hauehave the ſenſe of the Scriptures to be decided by them, who ſometimes hes miſſed the meaning of the holy Ghoſt. And he concludes in the end, That the holy Ghoſt is the only and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures. Thus the faireſt floures of your garden, and chiefeſt pillers of your faith hes written: ſo that if they ſpeake true (whome I know not if ye will preſume to contradict) the expoſition of the Scripture is not tyed vntounto the expoſition of the Fathers: and it is leaſome to goe with the text, againſt the ſtreame of their expoſitions.

And whereas you ſay, if I wilbe as good as my worde, the matter will ſoone be ended: I am glade of it, if you thinke as you ſpeake. My word was, Maiſter Gilbert, as your ſelfe hes written it, that there be verie fewe pointes of controuerſie betwene vsus, wherein I will not get ſome teſtimonies of ſundrie Fathers of the firſt 600. yeares, prouing with vsus againſt them (meaning your kirk.) And I deſired any man to ſet me downe any waightie point of controuerſie, one or moe, and he ſhould hauehave the proofe of it. Theſe were my words. Now ye ſay, if I will be as good as my word, the matter will ſoone be ended. Whether I hauehave bene as good as my word in this or not, let the reader iudge. And I appeale your conſcience Maiſter Gilbert, before the Lord in the great day, whether it be true or not. For not only in that example of Iuſtification, whilk ye caſt in, but almoſte in all the heades whilk are debated amongſt vsus, I hauehave brought in ſundrie teſtimonies of ſundrie Fathers with vsus againſt you. Yea, I hauehave bene better then my worde in that: for I hauehave broght in teſtimonies of ſundrie that liued after the 600. yeare: and not of theſe p. 154onlie, but alſo teſtimonies of ſundrie of your owne Doctors, Ieſuites, Cardinals, Biſhops, Canons, Councels, and Popes: prouing with vsus in ſome points againſt your ſelues. I looke therefore (Maiſter Gilbert) that ye ſhalbe as good as your worde, and that the matter ſhall end heir betwene you and me. For both you hauehave ſaide that the matter would ſoone end, if I were as good as my worde: and alſo ye hauehave promiſed and ſubſcriued with your hand, to reforme your religion in all things wherein it is not conforme to their teſtimonies. The whilk if you doe, then muſt you renounce the ſupremacie of your Pope, the ſacrifice of your Maſſe, your Tranſubſtantiation, your Iuſtification by works, your merites of workes, your perfite fulfilling of the Lawe of God, your erroneous opinions that the kirk cannot erre, that the Scripture ſhould not be iudge, with ſundrie others. For in al theſe I hauehave brought the teſtimonies of ſundrie Fathers: and in ſome of them the teſtimonies of your owne Doctors, Councels, Canons, and Popes with vsus againſt you. Either therfore take ſhame and falſet for euer-more vponupon you, or elſe keep your word and your write, whilk ye hauehave ſubſcriued heir, & reforme theſe points of your religion. As for that calumny wherwith ye charge vsus to hauehave takē away a great part from the ſcripture, I know you meane the Apocrypha, whilk beares not the mark and ſtamp of Gods ſpirit, as beeing neyther written by Prophets, nor yet the moſt parte of them in the propheticall language the hebrewe tongue, wherein all the olde Teſtament was written, except ſome things of Daniel, and Ezra, whilk were written in the Chaldaick language, quhilk was knowne then to the Iewes: nor yet receiued as Canonicall by the Kirk of the Iewes, whilk (a)(a)Belar lib. 1: cap. 10.your Kirk will not deny. Nor yet acknowledged Cannonicall by the teſtimonies of ſundrie (b)(b)Melito lib. 4. c 26. Euſeb. Origen lib. 6. c. 25. Euſeb. Athan. in ſinop. Hilar. in prolog. explan. Pſalm. Cyrill. in 4. catecheſ. Ruff…nus. in expoſ. ſimboli. Hieron. in prologo galeato.Fathers, (c)(c)Synod. Laodicen. canon. 59. confirmed by the councell Trullan.Councels, and of your (d)(d)Greg. Mag. in comment. in Iobum lib. 19. c. 16 Hugo. cardinalis in prologo. Ioſuae. Caietan a cardinall in fine coment. Heſter. Arias Montanus who was preſent at the councell of Trent, in aeditione quad am hebraicorum Bibliorum interlinearum interpretationem.ſelues, alſo Papiſts of great name: ſome reiecting al, ſome more, ſome fewer: containing alſo many things repugnant to the trueth of God ſet downe in the Canonical Scripture. Laſt of all, wanting that maieſtie of Gods ſpirit whilk ſo euidentlie ſhynes in the Canonicall Scripture. And therefore p. 155moſt iuſtlie ſay we, that ye vnderly the curſe of God, pronounced in his Scripture, Apoc. 22. for the adding vntounto the holie trueth of God. And looke to it (Maiſter Gilbert, what you will ſay to your Cardinall Caietane, who hath denied ſundrie bookes and parts of the Canonicall Scripture in the new Teſtament.

Maiſter Iohn Welſche.

Now, if the firſt thing I offer me to proue, be found of veritie: that is, that our Religiō is that ſelf ſame, & no other, then that that Ieſus Chriſt preached, and his Apoſtles, and theirs is not ſo: but deuyſed by the man of ſinne, & that Antichriſt, that whore of Babylon, then the plea is wonne But if I prooue the ſecond alſo, then I hope they will neuer open their mouth to ſpeake euill of the trueth of God, as though it were but a new Religion.

Maiſter Gilbert Browne.

When Maiſter Iohn proues the thing that he is not able to proue, we ſhall doe the thing that we are not able to performe. but it is an wonder of him to put in ſo manie (ifs) and does nothing to the matter. For it is and true ſaying in Philoſophie, that a conditionall Propoſition proues nothing. It appeares he hes bene in haſte, that he might not hauehave leaſure to (a)(a)I proued all that was required at my hands then.proue any head for example of his promiſe. For we vnderſtand that M. Iohn is a man who may erre, as manie man hes done before by his iudgement. And therefore he muſt hauehave no (b)(b)I deſire no credite without warrant, as your popes and your Kirk doth of her diſciples.credence of vsus, except he bring his warrand, and ye ſhalbe (c)(c)M. Gilbert is once beguiled for this is performed.ſure that he is neuer able to performe his ſayings.

Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.

This my reply, I hope, ſatisfies for anſwere to this ſectiō.

Maiſter Iohn Welſche.

Thirdlie, I anſwere The Spirite of God foretels that when the Antichriſt ſhall come, the defection ſhalbe vniuerſall, and all nations ſhalbe drunken with the wine of her fornication.