Exposition of the Apostles Creed, Dialogue 7
❧ In theſe. ii. laſte diologes is opened the other parte of the crede, the which do concerne the holy Goſte and the church wherein is declared that whyche appertayneth to the one and the other and is ſhewed what is the true churche of Ieſu Chriſt what is hyr poleſie, & miniſtration, & what goodes ſhe receiued of him.
Nathanaell.
IN as muche as we hauehave done the greateſt parte Phylype, I ſhall deſyre the to hauehave pacience, and to take the paine to expound vntounto me the reſte, that we maye ſe the end of thys mattier.
Phy.
It is reaſon, and I wyll not deuye the my payne, ſeynge it bryngeth …o leſſe conſolation vntounto me then to the.
Natha.
It ſemeth vntounto me that there be yet two partes to be declared, the one of the holye Goſte and the other of the churche.
Phyly.
It is true, but we maye well conioyne that of the holye Goſte wyth that of the churche, go forth as we hauehave begonne.
Natha.
It doeth folowe. I beleue in the holye Beleue in the holy goſtGoſte, it is no further neade that I ſhoulde aſke howe thou vnderſtandeſte thys, for by that thou haſte alreadie declared vntounto me the fayeth thou haſte in the father and in the ſon I vnderſtande wel thou confeſſeſte that thou putteſte all thy truſte in the holye Gooſte.
And that thou beleueſte, that by the ſame, the father and the ſonne doeth ſanctifie the as by Ieſus Chriſte, thou art iuſtified by the vertu of the ſame holye ſpirite.
Phylype.
It is true.
Natha.
Notwythſtandynge I vnderſtande that, yet woulde I verye gladlye thou wouldeſte expounde me more largelye, what thou vnderſtandeſt properly by thys holy ſpirite,
Phy.
The ſame vertue, power, mouynge and efficatie of God, by the which the father and The holy goſtthe ſonne worketh in vsus, nouriſheth & viuefieth as we hauehave all readye ſayed, in declaryng oure fayeth of the father and the ſonne.
Natha.
In asmuche as thou beleueſte in him thou holdeſte hym for a God, as wel as thou doeſte the father & the ſonne.
Phy.
Yea wythout doubte, for I vnderſtande not by thys anye maner of thyng, out of god or beſyde God but in God, & of hys propre ſubſtaunce.
Na.
Wherefore calleſt thou hym ſpirite, the father & the ſonne be they not alſo ſpirite ſeinge thou confeſſeſte they be God, & that Ieſus Chriſte doeth openlye teſtifie that Ihon. iiii.God is a ſpirite, the whyche muſte be honored in ſpirite and trueth?
Phy.
I deme not but God is a ſpirite, and ſo by conſequence, the father, & the ſonne, but we muſt firſt conſidre The ſignification of the word ſpirite.what is the ſignification of thys ſayinge ſpirite, and whether we ſpeake of the eſſence and vnitie of God, or of the diſtinctions which be in the ſame, which the auncient fathers hauehave called the perſones of the trinitie.
Natha
And what is the propre ſignification of thys ſame vocable ſpirite?
Phy.
I hauehave ſaied before that mā cā not find propre wordes as to ſpeake of diuine thinges, but muſte borowe them of humayne thynges & by ſimilitude of the ſame declare the thynges celeſtiall and ſpirituall.
Natha.
I remēbre it well, but tel me thē what is the natural ſignificatiō of this ſame word, and howe it agreeth wyth God.
Phy.
Spirite, ſignifieth properlie inſpiration blowing, & wynd, & bycauſe ther is nothinge more ſubtille amonge corporall thynges, nor that leſſe can be perceiued by vewe or ſyghte thē the wind, and the ſpirite, it is oftē taſtē in the ſcriptur for to ſignifie the things inuiſible & diuine.
Na.
Therefore I thinke we call the ſoule & vnderſtāding ſpirit, not that it ſhould be taken but for a wind, but bicauſe it is inuiſible ſodaynd & lyght as the wynd.
Phy.
Euē ſo likewiſe God is called a ſpirite, not that we ſhuld thinke that he were nothing eles but a wynde whych paſſeth, but to make vsus vnderſtand that we ought not to Imagin that he ſhoulde be anye maner of thynge viſible, materiall or mortall, but one nature eſſence, perfecte inuiſible, incorruptible, and immortall whyche wyll alſo be ſerued with the herte, and thē ſoule, of the ſpirite and vnderſtandynge whyche be immortall, & not wyth ceremonies & corruptible thinges.
Nathana.
Accordynge to thys ſignification the father, the ſonne, and the holye Gooſte be then al called ſpirite, and all for one cauſe, but expounde vntounto me wherefore thou calleſte more perticularlye, the holye Gooſte ſpirite then thou doeſt the father and the ſonne.
Phy.
Whē I behold the diuine eſſēce & vnitie of god, I call them al ſpirites, but when I cō ſidre the perſonal diſtinction of the whych we hauehave ſpoken here before I do then principally call the thyrde perſonne, ſpirite, bycauſe that worde doeth better open hys propertie then anye other we can fynde. Thou muſte alſo vnderſtand that often tymes in the ſcripture The holie ſpirite for hys gyftes and graces. Eſai. xi. i. Cor. xii.the holye Goſte is taken not for the eſſence & ſubſtaunce of hym ſelfe, but alſo for hys giftes and graces.
Nath.
Wherfore calleſt thou hym holye?
Phy.
For to deſerue hym from creatures, and for to declare that I ſpeake of that vertue power, and mouynge of God, whych is in God by the whych the father, by his ſonne Ieſus doeth ſanctif…e ſaue and vinifie vsus.
Nathana.
What calleſt thou holy?
Phy.
A thynge pure and ferme, ſeperated frō all corruption, & pollution, and from all prophane & carnal vſage, & a thing whole & entier, and inuiolate, and all togyther dedicate vntounto God, I …al thē the holy goſt, becauſe he is ſuch in dede, and that by hym God in Ieſu Chriſt ſanctifieth ma…ne, that is to ſaye, he purgeth, maketh cleane, conſecrateth, and dedicateth hym whollye to hym lelfe, ſeperatynge hym from all vyle and prophane vſages, to ſerue The chriſtian ſayutes.onelye vntounto hym, Therfore alſo be the chriſtians called ſayntes, becauſe they be anoynted wyth that oyntemente, and wythdrawen frō the ſeruitude of the deuyll, cōſecrate by Ieſus Chriſte for to ſerue the onelye God.
Natha.
I vnderſtande nowe wherfore Ieſus Chriſte dyd ſende a greate myghtye wynde when he gaue hys holye ſpirite vntounto hys Apoſtles.
Phylyp.
There is no doubte, but he dyd it to The holye ſpirite ſhewe… in wynde.ſignifie, that as the winde ſuffereth the Rociers, the litle and ſmall trees, and ouerthroweth by the rootes, breaketh down, broſeth and maketh ruinous, the greate & myghtye trees, So the vertue of thys holy ſpirite is to bring conſolation to the hertes aflicted to purge the conſciences, to iudge the euile, to ouerthrowe and ſette downe the proude, and to vpholde & beare vp the weake and humble.
Natha.
If we wyll then hauehave anye thynge of God, we muſte obteygne it by Ieſus Chriſte workynge in vsus by hys holie ſpirite.
Phylip.
It is euen ſo, for by hym all the beleuers, be vnite in one ſelf body with their head Ieſus Chriſte, and be nouriſhed and vinified in hym, as by the ſoule and ſpirite all the mē bres whyche be in one bodye, be partakers of the goodnes which is in the ſame body.
Natha.
I beleue for that cauſe we put to, by & by after thys article, the which appertayneth nyghe vntounto the churche, the whych is the bodye of Ieſus Chriſt, of the whyche thou ſpeakeſte of vinifiynge & ſanctifiynge by the ſame holy Gooſte, for we do ſaye, by and by after the catholyke churche.
Phy.
There is no doubte.
Natha.
In aſmuch thē as we hauehave treated the other three partes The churchof the crede, & that we be come to the fourth, whyche concerneth the churche, daughter of the celeſtiall father, ſpouſe of Ieſus Chriſte, tell me fyrſte what thou calleſt the church.
Phy.
Churche ſignifieth congregation and aſſemble, Eph. v,but I do take it and vnderſtād it here, for the aſſēble of the true and faythful chriſtians, whyche be vnite & cōioyned by one ſelfe ſpirite and one ſelfe fayeth.
Natha.
Is there anye other church then the churche of the faithfull?
Phy.
As we do cal the bodye and membres of Ieſu Chriſte the churche, ſo hath Antichriſte hys body and membres, whyche togyther make the malignaunt churche, but for aſmuche as that toucheth vsus in nothynge, we leaue it aparte, and ſpeake only here of the tru The malygnant churchchurch of Ieſu Chriſte & therfore do we cal it holy.
Natha.
For what cauſe?
Phy.
To put difference betwene hyr and the church of Antichriſte, and for aſmuche as ſhe is ſanctified by the holye Goſte, for to be the temple and habitatiō of God.
Natha.
Wher fore doeſt thou alſo call it catholike, what ſignifieth that worde catholyke?Catholike
Phy.
It doeth ſignifie vniuerſal, and therfore do I ſaye, I beleue the vniuerſall churche, bycauſe the churche doeth ſignifie all aſſembles, and congregation, where the fayethfull be aſſembled, as is the church of Cho…hi of Rome Galathiens and othere lyke, I wyll declare that there is one catholyke churche, that is to ſaye, vniuerſall and generall, comprehending all the other, the whyche is generallye ſowen thorowe all the worlde, onelye knowen of the onelye God whiche knoweth the hertes.
Natha.
If ſhe be ſowen thorowe all the world how is ſhe a church, ſeing that church ſignifieth cōgregatiō & aſſēble, & ſo as thou ſayeſte, it ſhould ſeeme rather to diſperation, ſeperation, and confution?
Phylype.
Therefore muſte we conſidre thys The churche inuiſible.churche ſpirituallye, and muſte not thynke it to be a viſible and local aſſemble, ſette and limited in a certaine place.
Nathana.
Howe vnderſtandeſt thou thys, or howe can the churche be inuiſible, ſeyng it is the aſſemble of the fayethful, whyche be viſible menne,
Phy.
I denye not but that the men whyche be of the churche be viſible, but thys ioynynge togyther of the churche oughte not to be conſidered of the coniunction of the bodies, but of the hertes, ſpirits, that be inuiſible which none cauſe, and therefore notwythſtandinge I ſee the menne that be of thys churche whē they be preſente wyth me, yet neuertheles I The churche mingeled thorowe all the worlde.can not ſee them all becauſe they be ſparkeled abrode thorowe all the worlde, and thoughe they myght be aſſembled all in one place, yet coulde I not knowe them perfectlye, becauſe that the elected ſhal neuer be ſo wel ſeperated in thys worlde, frome the infidels and reproued, but there ſhall be alwayes manye hypocrites mingled amonge them, the whyche we can not wel deſerue nor iudge, vntounto ſuch time as Ieſus Chriſte ſhall make ſeperation of the Math. xxv.go…es from the lambes, and of the wheate frō the tares, therfore do I ſaye that thys church is inuiſible, becauſe the eye cā not ſe it, nor the humayne iudgmēt wel deſerue it, therfore do we ſaye we beleue it, for if we did ſe it at our eye, wee beleued not, but notwythſtandynge we can not ſe it at our eye, yet we beleue that the Lorde hathe hys elected, whyche notwithſtandynge they be ſparkeled aboute thorowe all the worlde as touchynge theyr bodies, be yet neuertheles ſo ioyned togither by the ſpirite of God, that they be but one ſelfe bodye one ſelfe herte, and one ſelfe ſoule.Act. ii. iiii.
Natha.
Thou wylt then ſaye that the vniuerſall churche is a ſpirituall and inuiſible aſſē ble of all the elected and chyldrene of God, whyche be vponupon the earth, in what place ſo euer they be, whyche notwythſtandinge they be ſeperated and farre diſtaunte one frome a nother, as concerninge theyr bodyes, yet they be all vnite by one ſelfe ſpirite into one body miſticall, of the whyche Chriſte is the head, Col. i. ii.whyche dyed for to aſſemble the chyldrene of God, that were ſparkeled, but if thys church be inuiſible howe canſte thou ſaye, thou beleueſte in hyr and that thou holdeſte hyr fayth, howe canſte thou knowe what ſhe is, & what ſhe beleueth if thou know hir not?
Phylype.
I ſaye not that I beleue in hyr.
Natha.
Doeſte not thou confeſſe, I beleue in the holye Goſt, the holye vniuerſal churche?
Phy.
I do ſaye and confeſſe openlye. I beleue in God the father, and in Ieſu Chriſt, and in the holye Gooſte, but of the churche I do not ſaye, I beleue in the holye churche, but I beleue the holye churche.
Nathana.
Is it not all one, what difference is there?
Phy.
Verye greate. For if I ſayed I beleue in the holye church, I ſhould cōfeſſe that I put my truſt in hyr, as I hauehave ſayed before to beleue in God, and the churche is not god but is an aſſēble of men, & curſed is man that truſteth in man, wherfore if I ſayed, I beleue Iere. xviiin hyr, I ſhould ſpeake agaynſte my ſelf, and ſhould reuerſe the fayeth, which I hauehave cōfeſſed hytherto
Nathana.
Declare vntounto me the differēce.
Phi.
By expoſitiōs going befor it is opē inough, what ſēce mi words ſhould hauehave, if I ſayed, I beleue in the church. But when I do ſaye, I beleue the holie churche, that is to ſaye, I beleue and confeſſe that ther is an aſſemble by the whyche I hauehave diffined the churche, and that in the ſame I wyll lyue and dye.
Natha.
Howe wylt thou lyue and dye in hyr when thou knoweſt not where ſhe is.
Phy.
Although I can not perceiue, nor know al that be cōpriſed in it, yet neuertheles I hauehave certayne ſygnes by the whyche I know & am aſſured what ſhe is.
Nathanaell.
What be thoſe ſygnes?.
Phy.
In all places & cōpanies Syngnes to knowe the church by …where as the worde of God is purelye opened & receyued the ſacramētes of Ieſu Chriſt obſerued and kept, I am certaine that there is of the ſhepe of Ieſus Chriſte, & of the elected, or otherwyſe hys voyce ſhould not be opened nor yet receyued.
Natha.
Thou wylt then ſaye, that the worde of god, & the ſacramētes of Ieſu Chriſt be indubitable ſignes of the ſame, but manie ſpeak of Ieſus Chriſte, and make ſemblant to heare hys worde whych be hypocrites, & beleue not in hym as Iudas was and ſuche …yke. And cō trariewyſe there be many vnknowē which be eſtemed vnhappy & damned & yet hauehave faith & ſhall atteyne to the kyngdome of heauen, be fore them that ſhewe greate apparant, as Ieſus Chriſte dyd ſaye, the harlottes & publicās Math. xxii.ſhoulde obteigne it before the ſcribes & phariſeis.
Phy.
Therefore hauehave I ſayed, that thys churche is inuiſible, & vnknowen vntounto me not bicauſe we ſe not with the bodily eyes, the mē whyche be of it, but becauſe that man can not ſe the hertes nor can not deſerue nor knowe whether the man that he ſeeth beleueth or no Ephe. ii.how holie ſoeuer he ſeme, nor none cā know it but the onlie God, which gyueth the fayth, & knoweth the herte that receyueth it.
Nathan.
Thou art then oftē begiled thinking that the church is wher the goſpel is preached & the in ſtitutiō of Ieſus obſerued, ſeing that they that be ther & do ſuch thyngs may be ſuch as Iudas, Act. i. v. viii.Simō magus, Ananias, & Saphira we….
Phylip.
Albeit that ſuche hypocrites maye be mingled in greate numbre amonge the faithful, which be alwayes the lytle flocke, yet neuertheles it is certayne that amonge them be ſome of Chriſtes ſhepe, for els God woulde not permit nor ſuffer, that the preciouſe pearles, and margarites of hys holye Goſpell ſhoulde be caſte before dogges & ſwine only.
Natha.
What if the wolues ſwine and dogs call theim ſelues ſhepe, and in ſtede of the goſpell ſette forthe theyr owne dreames and humayne traditious, howe cauſte thou knowe & deſerue the churche.…. Cor. xii.
Phy.
The Lorde hathe lefte vsus hys holye ſcriptures, for to iudge and deſerue by the analogie of the fayeth, and the rule of charitie, whether the ſpirites be of God or not, & whether the ſpirit in the which I beleue do raigne the whyche is gyuen vntounto the elected, for to iudge all thynges, for the ſpirituall man iudgeth all thynges, and is iudged of no man.Th… roman churche.
Natha.
And is not the romayne churche that holie catholyke church, which thou beleueſte and muſt be folowed?
Phy.
If the romayne churche do abyde and perſeuer in the apoſtolyke doctrine, I wyl reknowledge hyr a churche of Ieſus Chriſt inaſmuche as ſhe declareth hir ſelfe to be the ſpouſe of Ieſus Chriſte, in obeying vntounto him as vntounto hyr heade, and for to lyue vndre hys lawes and ordinaunces, but yet maye I not take it for thys vniuerſal church, of the which we hauehave ſpoken, for ſhe can be but a mēbre of that churche, no more then other congregations, and other chriſtian churches that be abrode in the uniuerſall world ſeperated both in places and bodies, and yet ioyned in ſpirite and ſoule, makynge all togyther one vniuerſall churche.
Nathan.
But is not the Romayne church the heade of all the other, vntounto the whyche all the other oughte to obeye as ſubiectes?
Phy.
If ſhe be head, ſhe is no more thē, nother ſpouſe nor membre of hys body, ſuche as the faythfull ought to be, if ſhe wyll hauehave dominion & gyue lawes vntounto other, ſhe is no more a churche of Ieſus, but is the churche of Antechriſte, whyche attributeth vntounto hyr ſelf the office appertayninge vntounto Chriſte, for the office of the churche is not to gyue lawes vntounto hyr but receiue them of hym, and to make hyr ſelfe ſubiecte vndre the ſame.
Natha.
The churche then whych wyll exarciſe power ouer the other, & gyue theim other lawes then the Goſpell of Ieſu, is no churche of Chriſte, bycauſe hys ſpirite reygneth not ther, but to what purpoſe ſerueth it to beleue the vniuerſal churche?
Phy.
Without that article, al the reſte goyng before ſhoulde ſerue me for nothyng. For all that we hauehave ſayed of God, & that we beleue of the father, & of the ſonne, and of the holye Goſte, hath regarde vntounto thys churche without the whyche all oure faith ſhould be vaine for in this crede we do not conſidre what god is in hym ſelfe, but what he is towardes vsus, whyche be hys churche, and by what meanes he hath willed hyr to be deliuered, conſerued ruled & gouerned, wherefore al that we hauehave treated here before pretendeth to thys end, for we muſte nedes hauehave layed thys fundatiō to buylde after thereupon thys edifice, wythout the whythe the fundation ſhoulde profitte vsus in nothynge if we were not ſurelye builded there vponupon.
Nathana.
I vnderſtande well that thou haſte ſayed of the vniuerſall churche, but I deſyre yet much to knowe what thou vnderſtandeſt by the communion of ſayntes.
Phy.
I vnderſtande here no other thyng but that whyche I hauehave alreadye ſayed, that is to ſaye, the holye vniuerſall churche, but this we put to, the better to declare the vnite that is amōge the faithful, for as in one towne, in one cōmon wealth, & in one cōmunaltie & cōmuniō amōge the inhabitaūces citizens, & membres that be within it, ſo likewiſe in the churche of Ieſu chriſt ther is one vnite, aliaūce, burgelie & brotherhede, whyche after ſuch ſort conioyneth the bodie with hys head Ieſus Chriſte, & all the membres the one wyth the other, that they hauehave no goods that is not cōmune amōg thē, nor that the one doth not cōmunicate vntounto the other, for Ieſu Chriſt cōmunicateth al his goodes to his membres, & al the goodes that he doth cōmunicate to his churche, returneth or cōmeth to euerie one of his mēbres in perticuler, & euerye one receyueth his parte as the mēbres, the which the head doth cōmunicate vntounto them, & as the ſoule whyche is ſhed thorowe all the bodye, & giueth life vntounto all the mēbres of the ſame.
Nath.
It is then no ſmall benifite to be in the churche of Ieſus Chriſte-nor no ſmal euil to be out of that churche.
Phy.
It is with thē that be without, as wyth the braunche that is cut of the vine, or as the bowgh or twigge cut of the tre, the which frō thēſe forth can hauehave nother nouriſhmente nor life but muſt neades drie away, & is good for nothing but to be caſt in the fyre.
Na.
They which be excommunicate be they out of thys cōmuniō?
Phylip.
The word of excommunication ſhould gyue the vnderſtādyng inough for excommunication ſignifieth none othere thynge, but to be caſt out of a communaltye.
Nathanaell.
It is then as muche to be excommmnicate out of the church as to be baniſhed frome ſome certayne places
Phylype.
It is almooſte lyke, for as a towne Cōpariſon of the churchehath hys ciuell policye, and hys magiſtrates the whyche do conduce and gouerne it accordynge to the lawes and ordinaunces conueniente with the common wealthe.for it, euen ſo hathe the churche hys ſpirituall policie and eccleſiaſticall diſcipline and hys paſtures, miniſters, and ſenatoures to entertayne and gouerne hyr accordyng to the lawes and ordinaunces that ſhe hathe receyued of Ieſus chriſte.
Euen ſo then, as in the ciuell cōmune wealthe that whyche is done by theim whyche hauehave the charge, beynge lawefullye thereunto elected, and go not out of the limites of theyr offices, and of the lawes and ordinaunces, by the whyche the towne oughte to be ruled and gouerned, is approued & cōfirmed of al men. Euen ſo in the churche of Ieſus Chriſte, all that is done accordynge to hys worde by thē vntounto whom ſhe is committed: is ratified, not Math. xvi. Iohn. xx.onelye by all the churche, but alſo by Ieſus Chriſte, in the name and vertue of whom the thynge is done.
And if a manne for his euyle behauour or demeanoure, be lawfully baniſhed frō a towne he is depriued of the cōmunaltye of the ſame & is no lenger pertaker of the liberties fraunchiſes, and priuileges, nor of the commune goodes no more then a ſtraunger, which hath there nothynge to do. Euē ſo is it of him that is excommunicate by the church.
Nathanaell.
And who hath the power to excommunicate?
Phy.
Ieſu Chriſte hathe gyuen that power to al hys church vntounto the whych he hath cōmitted The eccleſiacal powerthe keyes of hys kyngdome, by the which this excōmunication is exerciſed.
Natha.
Is it then required that when a man ſhalbe excommunicate, to aſſemble the whole churche, and that euerye one ſhoulde ſaye hys opinion, & gyue his ſentence? M… ſemeth that were verye harde & ſhould engendre a greate confuſion.
Phy.
Oure Lorde Ieſus Chriſte hathe well prouided, for he teacheth vsus the meane & way Math. xviii.that we oughte to hold, and by what degrees we muſte procede, he teacheth vsus fyrſte, howe we ought to admoniſh the offendre aparte, & how we ſhould cal him before witneſſes, & if he wyll not heare thoſe and receiue theyr brotherly admoniſſion and correction, and be cō uerted and chaſtice hym ſelf, and if hys offēce do ſo deſerue, thē to report it vntounto the church and congregation, whych is the laſte remedy we muſte come vntounto, & yet it is not neceſſarie to aſſemble all the churche for thys, but ſuffiſeth to hauehave the eccleſiaſtical councell, whych hauehave the charge of the eccleſiaſticall dicipli…e.
Natha.
What vnderſtandeſte thou by thys ecceſiaſtical councell?
Phy.
I vnderſtand the prieſtes and miniſters of the church wyth other good & honeſt perſons of the people whyche be lawfullye elected & choſē for to wache ouer the maners and ſclaunders of the churche, and for the vpholdynge of diſcipline in the ſame euē as the coū celers and magiſtrates be elected and choſē for the conſeruation & maintenaunce of iuſtice in the commune wealth, and for the enterteynynge of peace and vnite amonge the Cytyzens, and theſe be they whyche the ſcripture calleth prieſtes, whyche ſygnifieth as muche Prieſtesas elders and ſenatoures, bycauſe they hauehave lyke office in the church as the ſenatours hauehave in the cōmōe welth ſaying ther is a grat difference in the adminiſtratiō, for the one is ciuile & temporal & hath the materiall ſwerde, for to vphold mainteigne & defēde hyr the other is Difference of the ciuill & eccleſiaſtical Rule Rom. xiii. Ephe. vi.eccleſiaſticall & ſpirituall, and hath the ſwerd of the ſpirite, whyche is the worde of God to conſerue hyr.
Natha.
By all that I can cōprehēd by thy wordes, thou wilt ſaie that as in a towne, we do ſay, that the towne hathe done that which hath be done by the councel & magiſtrate of the ſame. Euē ſo in the church we ought to vndreſtand that, that whych is done by them that hauehave charge of the ſame, and vntounto the which Ieſus Chriſte and ſhe alſo hauehave giuen the power and the adminiſtratiō of the keys is done by the churche,
Phy.
So vnderſtand I it. For thoſe be but ſeruauntes & miniſters of the churche by whō ſhe doeth exerciſe the power that Ieſus Chriſte hath gyuen hir and doeth declare the authoritie of the key…, whyche ſhe hathe receyued of hym.
Natha.
What nede is there of excommunication ſeynge ther is a magiſtrate in the church for the puniſhment of the offenders.
Phy.
What nede is there of any euangelical paſtour, when ther is a magiſtrate, or of preachynge when there is ciuell iuſtice, wherfore doeth not the magiſtrate boeth the one & the other?
Natha.
Bicauſe the matters be diuers and is neceſſarie that the offices ſhoulde be diſtincte & ſeperated in the commune wealth or otherwiſe ther ſhould be cōfuſion to mingle the tē poral thinges & ſpiritual togither, and is not poſſible that thoſe ſelf perſōs myght well exerciſes both to acquite them ſelues wel but in takyng vponupon them to do both ſhould do nother but marre al.
Phi.
Thou ſaieſt wel. And therfor as it is requiſit that the ciuil & tēporal adminiſtratiō ſhould be ſeperated frōe the eccleſiaſticall, and the temporall frome the ſpiritual. Euē ſo likewiſe muſt the correctiōs of the one & the other after a ſorte be ſeperated, for otherwyſe the churche ſhould not hauehave hir whole ryghte, nor ſpirituall iuriſdiction the whyche is gyuen vntounto hyr of our Lord Ieſus Chriſte, the whyche the cyuylle magiſtrate cannot take frome hyr, wythout doynge hyr greate wronge and Iniurye, nor wythout doynge greate diſhonoure vntounto Ieſus Chriſt hyr head, whyche hath gyuen her that authorite, for the magiſtrate is not ordeined of god for to vſurpe by power or tyrannye ouer the churche of oure Lorde Ieſus Chriſte, as the papiſticall churche, and the Antechriſt hir head hathe vſurped ouer the maieſtrate, and ouer the temporall ſworde, but it is ordeyned of God for to vphold the churche, & to healpe to conſerue hyr, and to mayntaygne hir rightes. Therefore ſayeth the prophete, that the kynges and quenes ſhalbe hir nouriſhers.Eſai. xxvi.
Natha.
But when the magiſtate hathe chaſticed & puniſhed the traunſgreſſours oughte it not to ſuffice the churche.
Phylip.
Thou oughteſte to vnderſtande that ther be diuers faultes, which be ſclanders vntounto the churche, of whyche the ciuyll lawes do not greatlye force, for they hauehave not ſo muche reſpecte vntounto conſcience, as to the outwarde Correction bi the church.peace and tranquilitie, but the churche hathe hir reſpecte to edify the conſcience, and to reconcile the manne vntounto God, and further, albeit that a manne hauehave bene puniſhed corporallye, and hathe made ſatiſfaction vntounto the lawe, yet hathe he not for all that ſatiſfied the churche, whyche was offendyd by hym, for notwythſtandynge he hathe bene puniſhede in hys bodye or by hys purſe, or by boeth, yet doeth it not for al that folow that he is an honeſt manne, for in that he hathe bene puniſhed, hathe bene agaynſte hys wyll, and the payne that he hathe ſuffered hathe not for all that chaunged hys hert, except the Lord with hys holye ſpirite hauehave touched hym, & therefore as the churche leueth vntounto the puniſhmēt of the magiſtrate, ſuch as by him be puniſhable to be puniſhed wyth ſuch puniſhmente as they hauehave deſerued, wythout medelynge hyr ſelfe wyth the temporall ſwerde: euen ſo ought the temporall magiſtrate not onelyonly to ſuffer the church to procede in hyr office after he hath done hys, but alſo to healpe hyr in the execution of hyr office if nead require, as and if ther be any rebelliō againſt the ſame, which requireth more greuouſe puniſhment thē ſhe maye gyue or put in execution, for what other thynge is the eccleſiaſticall councell or ſenate but a membre or parte of the magiſtrate, and of them whyche partly be ordeyned by hym ſauyng ther is an other maner of proceading for ſuche as hauehave bene moued to repentaunce but rather hardened by the puniſhmēte of the temporal ſwerde, whych ſhalbe conuerted by that whych ſhal be opened vntounto theim, of the worde of God, for God hathe not cōſtituted the miniſtration of hys Goſpel in his church wythout gyuynge hyr vertue and efficatie by hys holye ſpirite, by the whych he doth ſtrike the ſoules more lyuely thē the material ſwerd ſtryketh the bodye, and further when a man hathe made ſuche amendes as he hathe bene ioyned vntounto by the lawe, thē is the ciuilitie of the lawe ſatiſfied, whyche forceth not muche wyth what herte it be done, but the church requireth the teſtimonie of the herte, and cānot admitte them into hyr communion, whyche be ſclaunderous vntounto hyr, and whyche hauehave by the workes declared that they be no membres of hyr bodye, excepte that fyrſte ſhe ſhall hauehave ſene theyr repentaunce, & that they ſhall hauehave gyuen certayne ſygnes and teſtimonies of the ſame, for it is defended hyr to giuegive that Math. vii.which is holy vntounto Dogges, and to caſte hyr margarittes & precious ſtones before ſwyne.
Natha.
But in aſmuch as the churche is conſtitute of menne, howe can ſhe better iudge of the herte then the ciuyle magiſtrate, and further what ſatiſfaction wylte thou hauehave other thē that of Ieſu Chriſt, for thy ſelf hath ſayed that none othere can ſatiſfie vntounto the Iuſtice of God.
Phyly.
As towchynge the herte, the churche leaueth it vntounto the iudgmente of God, which only knoweth it, but yet neuertheles ſhe hath more care thē the ciuyle magiſtrate, & can not admit, nor receyue a manne into hyr cōpanie whyche at the leaſte wyll not confeſſe wyth hys mouthe by the whyche he doeth teſtifie the chriſten herte that he hathe, it may wel be that often tymes the herte doth not agre with the confeſſion of the mouthe, and that the cō feſſion be fayned as it was in Simon Magus Ananias, & Saphyra, but it ſufficeth vntounto the churche that a man ſhewe hyr outward teſtimonie of the herte, for ſhe can not iudge whether it be fained & hypocriteth or faithful wherefore ſhe can not caſte out hym whyche commeth vntounto hyr wyth anye teſtimonie of fayeth, for if hys teſtimonie be fayned ſhe leaueth the iudgmente vntounto God whyche ſhall diſcouer it in hys time, but to receyue any perſon wythout open teſtimonie of repētaunce & faieth, ſhe cā not without doynge againſte the word of god, for whē the dogs & ſwine do opē lie ſhewe thē ſelfe, ſuch by theyr workes, and be not couered with ſhepe ſkines, why ſhould ſhe not iudg thē? She hath none excuſe nor reſonable cauſe for to receiue thē ſeing that god hath giuē hir the iudgmētes of ſuch things, & that ſhe hath the mean ſo to do, & therfor whē a mā declareth hym ſelf manifeſtlie ſclaunderous, & a rebell vntounto the eccleſiaſticall correctiō & diſcipline, the laſt remedi that the church hath is to excōmunicate, that is to ſaye to opē vntounto him that ſhe taketh him not for any mē bre of Chriſt, nor worthi to be in the cōpani of the faithful, nor to cōmunicate the Sacramentes, whych Ieſus Chriſt hath gyuen hir vntounto the which ought none to be admitted but hir Math. xviii.diſciples but oughte to be reiected, and depriued of them as a publican, and a panim, or as a Iewe or turke, whyche the fayethfull wyll nor receyue, into theyr communion, but doeth hold him as an Apoſtata, & enemy of chriſtiā religiō, & whē he is ſo reiected frō the church, i. Corin. v. ii. Corin. ii. i. Timot. i.he is in the handes of Sathan for to afflicte him, & is ſeperated frō Ieſu Chriſt after ſuch ſorte that if he do not reknowledge hys faultes, amend him ſelfe, and laboure to recōcyle hym ſelfe, vntounto the churche, he is vtterly loſte and dampned, for in as muche as the churche hathe bounde hym he is bounde, ſeynge that Ieſus Chriſte hathe gyuen it that power, by the miniſtration of hys worde, by the whiche alſo he is vnbounde, if he reknoweledge hys Math xvi. & xviii.faultes, & be receyued agayne into the church by penaunce.
Natha.
The churche is then verye rigorouſe and hathe a power muche moore to be feared then the ſwerd, of the magiſtrate for it cā puniſh but the body, but that of the church ſleaeth the ſoules, how doth this thē agre wyth that whyche Ieſus Chriſte hathe ſayed, that he was not come for to deſtroye or loſe, but to ſaue, is the church of anye other nature thē Luke, ix.Ieſus Chriſt hir head?
Phyly.
No. But the euell do kyll and da…ne them ſelues in reiectynge the bliſſinge of Ieſus Chriſte, whyche is preſented and offered vntounto hym by his churche, & therfore the church doeth not dampne hym, but onelye declareth vntounto hym his dānation & reiecteth him as dā ned, not to the intente that he ſhould ſo be, but to the intēt he ſhould not be, but he knowing hys damnation, and ſeynge hym ſelfe depriued and ſhytte out of the companye of Ieſus Chriſte of the Angels and of all ſayntes, and forſaken of all the fayethfull, myghte be the more aſhamed and confounded, and the better feele the iudgemēte of God vponupon hym, to the ende that by thys meane he myghte he moued to repentaunce that he ſhould not periſhe eternallye, for thys ſame oughte wel to aſtony hym, ſeyng hym ſelf bound by the churche whych hath ſuche power by the keyes which Ieſus Chriſte hathe gyuen hyr, that whatſoeuer Math. xvi. xviii.is bound or vnboūde in the earth by hyr, is boūd or vnbounde in heauen.
Natha.
Then is the excommunication rather a medicine and a remedie, then a death & damnation.
Phylip.
Accordynge as euerye man doeth vſe it to hys profit, for it is the laſt remedy of the churche the whyche ſhe doeth vſe as a corſey towardes ſynners, that can not be holpen by other remedies, if the ſynner perceiue the vertue of thys excommunicatiō, and amend hym ii. Corin. i.ſelfe as the poore Corynthien dyd, it ſhall thē ſerue hym for a medicine of health, but if he perſeyuer obſtinate in his malice, wythout reconcilynge hym ſelfe, vntounto the churche, he abideth bounde and dead in hys ſynnes, and not wy…hſtandynge that if he woulde reconcile hym ſelfe vntounto the churche, yet ſhe wyll not receyue hym by & by before that he ſhal hauehave Eccleſiaſticall ſatiſfaccionſhewed open teſtimonie of hys repentaunce forto take away the ſclaundre he hath made, and for to gyue example vntounto other, & therfore accordynge to the deſeruynge of the offē der, the church doeth enioyne them ſome maner of penaunce for to teſtifie theyr repētaūce & for to proue whether it be fayned or true, & alſo to gyue terror vntounto the ſynners that the eccleſiaſtical diſcipline come not into ſclaūder if ſhe ſhoulde ouer lyghtly receyue the ſclaunderours, and ſo thys payne is not lyke vntounto that whyche is impoſed by the ciuyle magiſtrate but is rather an open teſtimonie of repentaunce for to ſatiſfie vntounto the churche and not vntounto God, for towarde God there is no other ſatiſfaction ſufficiente but that of Ieſus as it hath bene ſayed manye tymes alreadye but as I am bounde to ſatiſfie vntounto my neighboure that whyche I owe hym: euen ſo am I to the church, if I hauehave made offēce, & as the ſatiſfaction that I make vntounto my neyghbour is not ſufficiente to take awaye my ſynnes towardes God, if God by hys mercye do not pardon me: euen ſo of the ſatiſfaction that I make vntounto the churche whyche ſerueth not but to entertayne hyr diſcipline, and to auoide ſclaunders, and yet neuertheles he that would refuſe to make ſuche ſatiſfaction for the edifiynge of hys neyghboure whō he hath ſclaundered or offended, when he hathe the meane and occaſion ſo to do: doeth declare hym ſelfe vnworthye to obteygne pardon of God for ſo doynge is a certaine teſtimonie of the infidelitie and the rebellion of the herte.
Natha.
I vnderſtand nowe thys matter and do not doubte but if thys excommunication were practiſed in the churche as it was in the primatiue churche, there ſhould be fewer and leſſe ſclaunders, & the worde of God in much greater reuerence then it is,
Phy.
Thinke not that Ieſu Chriſt hath inſtituted it without cauſe, as for myne own part I do not doubte but if it were practiſed in the vertue of God, as it was in the Apoſtolyke churche, but it ſhoulde hauehave muche more efficatie to refrayne ſuche ſynners as were not all togythere reproued of God, then the punyſhmentes of the cyuylle magiſtrates the whyche neuertheleſſe ſhe taketh not awaye but leaueth it alwayes whole in it ſelfe.
Nathanaell.
I hauehave an other ſcrupuloſitie towchyng thys excōmunication, for as much as he that is excommunicate is ſeperated frō the churche of Ieſus Chriſte, and depriued of hys ſacramentes whyche is no ſmall thynge it doeth therfore ſeme vntounto me that we ought not temerariouſlye and lyghtlye to excōmunicate a manne wythout good and iuſte, cauſe & ſome greate crime and faulte that ſhoulde cō ſtrayne vsus ſo to do, wherfore I hauehave merueil of the prieſtes whyche do excommunicate the power people for ſmal thynges, ſometime for dettes, yea ſomtyme for thre halpenies & that ſuche as hauehave not wher with to bye theyr children breade.Excōmunication for dets
Phyly.
In that hauehave they well ſhewed, howe they eſteeme but lyttle the communion of Ieſus Chriſte, and of all hys Sayntes, and the ſaluation of the poore people whych they did ſhewe to eſteme leſſe then thre halpens, but in aſmuche as they hauehave not the true churche of Ieſus Chriſte I do eſteeme theim as happye that be excommunicate by them, and ſpeciallye for the Goſpelles ſake, as the poore blind man that was excommunicate by the ſcribes and phariſeis, and as they whyche were excō municat Phariſaicall excōmunication. Iohn. vi.by the ſinagoge of the I…es, bycauſe they hadde confeſſed Ieſus Chriſt, for the excōmunication is but a very tyrannye, & theyr churche is the churche of Antichriſte, out of the whyche we muſte be excommunicate, if we wyll be receyued into that of Ieſu Chriſt in the which the true paſtours, and miniſters do not vſurpe tyranny ouer the people, nor do not attribute vntounto them ſelues onelye the authoritie of excommunication whyche is gyuē vntounto all the churche, but doeth exerciſe it with them, the whyche the churche hathe choſen & i. Corin. v. ii. Cori. ii.elected vntounto ſuche offices as the Apoſtle hath practiſed among the Corinthians.
Na.
There reſteth yet in me an other ſcrupul in as muche as excommunicate doeth ſignifie to be baniſhed and caſte out of the communiō Excōmunication agaynſte beaſtes.of the chriſtians, howe maye the biſhoppes & prieſtes excōmunicate the ſnayles, myle, newtes, ſnakes and ſuche othere lyke beaſtes, for they be not of the cōmunalty of the chriſtiās nor be not accuſtomed to come vntounto the ceane howe can we then depriue, and caſte them out yet neuertheles it is ſayed of certentye, and I hauehave alſo ſeene it in wrytyng, that the biſhop of Luſane did once excommunicate the newes and ſnaks out of the lake or ſtagne of Luſane and that neuer after ther was found nor ſene none ther. And as I hauehave bene infourmed the prieſtes in ſome place doe excommunicate for al intētes, the beaſtes that hurte the fruites, & goodes of the earth.
Phylyp.
They coulde not better ſhewe theyr aſſyſhnes, nor better declare that they bee ſorcerers and enchaunters, nor that thei neuer vnderſtode the inſtitutiō, of excōmunication nor the cauſe of the ſame. Be thei aferde that the beaſtes ſhoulde go into heauen ſeynge they chaſſe and caſte them out of the communion of Sayntes, of the which they were neuer nor can not be?
But what othere thynge is thys but playne ſorceries, charmes and enchauntemētes vntounto whyche they hauehave theyr recours as magiciēs, wher as they ought to hauehave their recourſe vntounto prayer and oriſons, vntounto the which they ought alſo to moue and inſite the people and vntounto true repentaunce for to appeiſe the yre▪ & God, and ſo take awaye thoſe woundes that God hathe ſente vntounto menne for theyr ſinnes Beholde, theſe be the excommunications the whyche the Prophetes and the true ſeruauntes of God hauehave vſed agaynſt ſuche beaſtes, and not to vſe charmes as the magiciens of Pharao did.
Natha.
Thou haſte contented me, & I thinke theſe beaſtes do more obey vntounto theyr excommunications, then vntounto the charmes and ſorſeries of the enchauntors. But we hauehave taried longe inough vponupon this poynte, and hauehave yet thre other vponupon thys article whyche I wyll aſke of the one after an other?
Thou haſte ſayed vntounto me that in thys communion of Sayntes all was commune, is it then neceſſary that al the chriſtians hauehave their goodes in commune one wyth an other.
Phy.
Thys communaltye of goodes hauehave two conſiderations if thou vnderſtandeſt ſpirituallye: there is no doubte as all the ſpirituall goodes, whyche be in Ieſus Chriſte the huſbande, be commune vntounto the churche hys ſpowſe, and alſo vntounto al the membres of the ſame, whyche is hys miſtical body, and hauehave all hys gyftes and graces in commune one with an other. But if thou meane of the earthlye goodes that is an other matter, for ſeyng that the churche is the kyngedome of Ieſus Chriſte and hys kyngedome is not of thys worlde, wee muſte not therefore ſeeke in hys churche a carnall communion, but a ſpirituall, for as the ſpirituall kyngedome of Ieſus Chriſt doth not aboleyſhe nor take away the ciuile pollytie but doeth approue & confyrme it: euen ſo the ſpirituall communion of ſaintes doeth not aboleyſhe the diuiſion of the earthlye goodes that is amonge menne, but that it is lawefull for euerye one to poſſeſſe that whych is aſſigned hym accordyng to the humaine lawes.
Natha.
Thou wylte then ſaye, that thys cō muniō ought not to be vnderſtand but of the ſpirituall goodes.
Phylyp.
I denye not but there is alſo a communion of the corporall and earthlye goodes amonge the fayethfull, not that it is lawefull for euerye man to laye hys handes vponupon the goodes of his neyghbour as it were his own & ſo to make it his, of his own authorite, for if it were ſo it ſhoulde not bee a communion of Saintes, but of robberye, and a comminaltie of beaſtes and Dogges, and not of chriſtiās for ſo all ryghtes boeth diuine and humayne ſhoulde be violated, and the commaundemē tes Cōmuniō of beaſtes.of God ſhoulde hauehave no place amonge menne, for then thefte ſhould be no more theft if it were lawefull for euerye manne to laye hys handes and take where ſoeuer he myght fynde, and adultrie ſhoulde be no more adultrie, if it were admitted that eueryevery one might abuſe the doughter and wyfe of hys neyghboure after the maner of the bruite beaſtes, whyche hauehave no maner of reuerēce nother vntounto cōſanguinitie nor matrimonie.
Natha.
I am of thine opinion, for Ieſu Chriſt is not come to make of menne beaſtes, but to make of beaſtes menne, and of men Goddes for the man that knoweth not Ieſu Chriſte is worſſe then a beaſte, but howe vnderſtandeſt thou this communion of the earthly goodes.
Phyl.
The practiſe of the primatiue church declareth inoughe vntounto vsus, for that ſame charitie dyd make theyr goddes all commune amonge Act. ii. iiii. v.the fayethfull, and yet for all that dyd euerye man poſſeſſe hys owne goodes, and enheritaunce, the whyche wyth out conſtraynte of theyr owne liberalitie they them ſelues dyd bringe vntounto the Apoſtles to be diſtributed vntounto the power neady brethren, but it was not laweful for other to take it at their pleaſure, but as it was diſtributed vntounto them by them, vntounto whome it dyd appertaygne as it doeth well appeare by the wordes whyche ſaint Petre had vntounto Ananias, & Saphira.Act…, v.
Natha.
I vnderſtande wel nowe what cōmuniō this ought to be, for the goſpel doth leaue vntounto eueryevery one that whych appertayneth vntounto hym, but the charitie whyche the Goſpell aboue all thynges doeth ſette forthe vntounto vsus, doth teach vsus how we ought to vſe, and how we ought to communicate the goods that we hauehave receyued of God vntounto the poore membres of Ieſus Chriſt, but tell me nowe which be the ſayntes amonge the whyche thys communion is.
Phi.
Vnderſtandeſte thou not by that I hauehave anſwered to the before, that they be the faithfull chriſtiens?
Natha.
I vnderſtande that well, but bycauſe we do commonlye call them Sayntes which be in heauen, and that thei whych be in thys worlde be all poore ſynners: I hauehave here a litle Who be ſaintes.doubte, for I vnderſtande not well howe we maye call ſynfull men Sayntes, whyche be yet enuironed wyth thys fleſhe of ſynne, nor knoweth not whether we ought to vnderſtand thys communion of Sayntes, of them onelyonly which be alreadie in heauē, or onlye of thē which be yet in this world, or of both togither.
Phy.
As to the firſt I knowe wel whē we ſpeake cōmonly of ſaintes, the pore ſimple people vnderſtande no othere thynge but of them that be departed, and that they hold for ſaued, but that cometh of ignoraunce and for lacke of vnderſtandynge of the Apoſtolike doctrine, which doth cuſtomably cal the faith ful chriſtien ſaintes, & there is no incōuenience to call them ſaintes, notwithſtanding they be ſynners, for as the churche is called holy, euē ſo be the fayethfull called Sayntes, of the whych ſhe is cōpoſed bycauſe that God hath iuſtified, pourged made cleane, and ſanctified them whyche he hathe elected for to ſerue vntounto al holines, and innocencie, and for to make ſhyne in vsus the Image of hys glorye, & therfore the church is called the ſpowſe of Ieſus Chriſt gloryouſſe wythout ſpotte or wryncle notwythſtandynge that all we the membres of the ſame praye euerye daye vntounto God and he pardoneth our ſynnes.
Natha.
It foloweth then that all the true chriſtians be Saintes & ſynners all togyther, but Math. vi. Luc. ii.howe maye theſe thinges agre, beynge ſo repugnaunte?
Phy.
They be not repugnaunte if they be well vnderſtande: for ech man if we Eph. ii. Rom. iii. Gal. ii. i. Co. i.conſidre hym in hym ſelfe, and in hys nature: is the child of ire naturalli a ſinner execrable worthi of death & eternal dānatiō, but if we cō ſidre hym in Ieſu Chriſt he is holy, for by the fayth which he hath in him, he is iuſtified and ſanctified, not that he is altogither wythout ſynne, but bycauſe that Ieſus Chriſte doeth make hym partaker of hys ryghtuouſneſſe & ſatiſfaction after ſuche ſorte that notwythſtā dynge he be a pore ſynner yet is it not imputed Pſal. v. Rom. iiii.vntounto him, but is couered and defaced, and he reputed iuſte before God, by the meane of Ieſus Chriſte nother more nor leſſe, then if he had not ſinned at all?
Nathanaell.
Thys holines of the churche is not yet then perfecte?
Phi.
No not tyl it be altogither deliuered frō thys worlde, and perfectly conioyned & vnite wyth hyr head Ieſus Chriſte, for duryng the tyme ſhe ſhall be in thys worlde, ſhe ſhall hauehave alwayes battell agaynſte the fleſhe and ſynne, and ſhall neuer be fullye and deliuered frome the ſpottes and imperfections of the ſame vntounto the daye of hyr redemptiō, whē Ieſus Chriſte ſhall appeare in glorye, & therfore ſayed Ieſus Chriſte that he that is cleane and waſhede, hath yet nede to waſhe his fete, and therefore ſaye wee after thys article, that we beleue the remiſſion of ſynnes.
Nathanael.
Before we come vntounto that article thou muſt firſt declare vntounto me the pointes I hauehave demanded of the vponupon thys, the whyche we hauehave alreadye treated on.
Phy.
Towchyng that thou haſte demaunded me of the Sayntes, wee maye vnderſtande thys communion generallye of al the elected that euer hathe bene, be, or ſhalbe, but there is ſome difference, as touching the practiſe. Tru it is that all the goodes of Ieſus Chriſte, bycauſe they be ſpiritual, be commune vnt…l, but there is an othere cōmunion betwen… … Sayntes that yet be lyuynge, & them whiche be departed for eyther of theim hauehave theyr eſtates aparte. And therefore is there no ſuche Cōmuniō betwene ſaintes lyueinge and them that bee dead.communion betwen the Sayntes that be departed and vsus as there hathe bene betwene them, in the time that they lyued, and thē that lyued wyth them, & at the leaſte we hauehave no teſtimonye of the holye ſcriptures for they ſerue not nowe vntounto the church wyth the giftes and graces whyche they in theyr tyme receyued of God for the edification of the ſame for they hauehave fulfilled and ended theyr courſe and theyr miniſtration whyche nowe is committed vntounto others, and of the other part thei hauehave no more nead of vsus nor of oure goodes for they be out of al neceſſitie.
Nath.
Oughte we not then to honour them?
Phy.
We may not honoure them, as though they were preſent wyth vsus, nor do vntounto them reuerence nor ſalute them, nor ſpeake to them nor preſente vntounto them of oure goodes nor anye maner of ſeruice for othere honour… nor ſeruice can we not do vntounto them but in folowynge theyr holye doctrine and holye lyfe, and conuerſation as they hauehave folowed Ieſus Chriſte, for thoſe be the reliquies that they hauehave lefte vsus, in the whych they would be honored by vsus and ſo then when wee hauehave the …lye ſcriptures in reuerence the whych god hathe geuen vntounto vsus by them, then do we honoure theyr reliquies.
Nathana.
It is then greate folye to offre vntounto Offerynge to ſayntesthem breade, wyne, candels, golde and ſiluer and other thynges lyke, ſeynge they hauehave no maner of nede.
Phylyp
That is a furye or follye more then pa…imrie, it weare muche better for to offre vntounto the lyuynge Images and Sayntes, for to accompliſhe that whyche the Apoſtle exhorteth vsus to admoniſhynge vsus to communicate vntounto the neceſſitie of the ſayntes, it is verye cleare that he ſpeaketh not there of the Sayntes departed, but of the lyuynge and of the pore membres of Ieſus Chriſte beinge among vsus languiſſhyng and ouer preſte, with pouertie and neceſſitie.
Nathana.
I doubte not but thoſe offerynges were more pleaſynge vntounto God.
Phi.
Such were they of the primatiue church for the gatherynge ſpendynge and diſtributynge of the whiche, the churche at that tyme hadd… hyr deacons to ſerue at the tables, and At. vi. Rom. xvi.vntounto the neceſſitie of the pore, we can no here fynde chapell churche or Image more meete for the practiſynge of thys excommunicatiō and to offre vntounto the Sayntes, then in viſitynge the hoſpitales, pore wydowes, orphās fatherles, ſycke, lame, neadie, and indigēt. VponUpon ſuche Sayntes ought the goodes of the churche to be employed and ſpente, and vponupon them that ſerueth hyr and hauehave nede.
Nathan.
That ſame were a goodlye thynge, but tel me yet what ſeameth it the, of brotherheades and monkerye, for ſeynge there is but Deut. vi. i Timo. ii. Ephe. iiii.one chriſtian church, one communion of laintes, one God, one mediatour of God & man, one ſpirite as we hauehave cōfeſſed hytherto, and that all is but one goſpell, one Baptiſme, one Ceane one fayeth, and that all the chriſtians ought to be in one ſelfe bodye one ſelfe herte, and one ſelfe ſoule, it ſeameth to me, that ther oughte to be but one religiō, and one brotherheade, ſeyng that al the chriſtians be brothers & hauehave all receyued one ſelfe ſpirite of fayeth and chriſtiā religion.
Phy.
There is no doubt but they which hauehave bene the authours of the monaſticall lectes, and that foloweth theim, ſuche as they be at thys preſente tyme, and thoſe brotherheades lykewyſe taken of the folowynge of the panyms, be Apoſtataſe from the true church of Ieſus Chriſte, for as Siſmatykes they do deuide, breake and teare the communion of ſaintes, for as there is but one God, ſo can there be but one religion, The whyche. S. Iames doeth diffine in thys maner, the religion that is pure and without ſpot towardes God the father is thys. Viſet the fatherles, & widowes in theyr neades and tribulations and be not ſpotted & defiled wyth thys worlde, he doeth not ſaye that the true religion is to ſhute thy ſelfe in a cloiſter, or to dwell in the deſerte to be diſguiſed in diuers habites, to eate, and deuour the pore widowes & fatherles vndre the colour of long praiynge, for ſuche religion is to much phariſaicall, but the chriſtian religiō doth lye in fayeth, whyche maketh vsus ſtudye vntounto all puritie and innocentie, & to exerciſe our charitie towarde our neyghboure whych is the true marke of the true chriſtians & diſciples of Ieſus Chriſte, & the Abbot of that religion is God the father, and the gardian is Ieſus Chriſte, and the religious brethrene be al true chriſtians and faythfull, for as the Apoſtle teſtifieth the ſpirite of God witneſſeth vntounto oure ſpirite, that we be the chyldrene of God, by the whyche we crie Abba, that is to ſaye father, then in as muche as Abba, doeth ſignifie father, and that wee take God ſo to be, and call hym father, there is thē no doubt but he is the Abbot and founder of oure religion, Act. ii. Ephe. ii.the whyche he doeth conſerue, maynteyne, and gouerne, by Ieſu Chriſt hys ſonne whom he hath giuen to be head of the church Ihon. vi. x.and into whoſe handes he hathe putte vsus all to be vinified, ſanctified, vnite and conioyned wyth hym by hys holy ſpirite, and the habite that we muſte put on, in thys religion is oure Lorde Ieſus Chriſt the newe manne, whiche we muſte put on, and of the olde Adam for Ephe. iiii.we muſte chaunge the ſkynne, and the herte and not the ayer, and the coote or clothes.
Nathana.
In aſmuche then as God is the father of vsus all and that wee make inuocation vntounto hym by that name, it doeth folowe alſo that we be all bretherne, and ſo wyll Ieſus Chriſte that we call oure ſelues, and then if we be all brethrene, wee be then one brotherhead. I can not then vnderſtande that here is anye other brotherhead but that of the holye Gooſte, by the whyche the churche is aſſembled and all the ſayntes vnite and conioyned in one communion.
Phy.
Thou concludeſte verye well, therefore Brotherhed Math. xiiiconfeſſe we fyrſt in this crede the faith which we hauehave in the father, whyche ſaueth vsus by Ieſus Chriſte hys ſonne, and doeth ſanctifie vsus by hys holye ſpirite, whych be of one ſelfe eſſence and diuinitie wyth the father, in the whyche we beleue and put al oure truſte, we laye fyrſt the fundation and the cauſe, and after we come vntounto the churche whiche vpō the l…me is founded & builded. Howe can we thē ſaye, that we be of the brotherhead of Saynt Bernarde, and of Saynte Sebaſtian and of The brotherhed of ſayntsſuche othere lyke, or of Saynte Barbara or ſaynt Katheryn, or of oure Ladye, or of anye other of the holye Sayntes what ſoeuer they be for we can nother call thē fathers nor monor we be not b…etherne, by the reaſon of thē nor vnite and conioyned by theyr ſpirites, but if they hauehave bene true and fayethfull, they be oure bretherne, and hauehave beene lede wyth oneſelfe ſpirite.
And lykewyſe maye we alſo ſaye of all the monaſticall ſectes and diuerſitie of religions. For if Saynt Paule hauehave called the Corinthyans S…ſmatikes whyche ſayed I am of Paule, and I of Cephas, and I of Appollo what title or name ſhall I gyue them whyche ſaye, I am of the religion of Saynte Fraunces, and I of Saynte Dominike, and I of S Benet, & other ſuche like, which be in greater numbre amonge the chriſtians then euer they were amonge the panims, maye we not well ſaye vntounto them wyth the Apoſtle, is Chriſte deuided? hathe Frauncys or Dominike dyed for you? or are ye baptiſed in theyr names?
In as muche then as wee are baptiſed in the name of the father, of the ſonne, and of the holye Goſte, what hauehave we neede of anye other religion but of that, in the whyche thys holye ſpirite doth raygne, which doeth learne vsus to make innocatiō vntounto the fathers, in the name of Ieſus Chriſt hys ſonne, whych hath taken vsus all into theyr ſauegarde and protection, what hauehave we nede of anye othere rule, but of that the whyche Ieſus Chriſte hathe The Rule of the Religion of Ch…iſt Gal. vi.broughte vsus from heauen? Of the whych the Apoſtle doeth ſpeake in thys maner, all they whyche walke after thys rule, peace and mercye be vponupon them, and vponupon Iſrael of God.
Natha.
I hauehave learned manye goodlye poyntes by the occaſion of thys cōmunion of ſaintes, for thou haſte not onelye taught me what it is, but alſo what is the true excommunication, religion and chriſtian brotherheade, and what is the honour dene vntounto Sayntes, therfore nowe expounde vntounto me the reſte.
Phy.
Becauſe we hauehave abyden ſolonge vponupon theſe two articles of the church & the communion of Sayntes, wee maye here deuide oure matter and kepe the reſte tyll an other tyme the which ſhalbe ſhortly done.
Natha.
At thyne own pleaſure be it.