Christian Instruction and Sum of Doctrine Part 1, Dialogue 3

Christian Instruction and Sum of Doctrine Part 1 · Dialogue 3

p. 109❧ The effect of the thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells: making mention of the auncient doctors and decrees.

I Doe conteyne in this Dialogue following, the matter of Councels, concernyng theyr authoritie, alledging many examples of auncient hyſtories, by the which I doe ſhewe the greate contrarietye that hath beene betwene many Councels, and many decrées and Canons, as wel of them, as of Romiſhe Popes. There is in the ſame alſo mention made of the libertie geuē to Chriſtians, for to reforme the abuſes that ſhall happen in religion, and of the duetie y^t eueryevery man doth owe to the ſame: and of the attent of them that do attend vponupon thoſe that are called the prelates of the church. Likewiſe of the lawefull aſſembles that are made in the name of Chriſt: and of the gift of Prophecie: and of the promiſe of God, and to whom, and vppon what condition. Moreouer, of the authoritie of the true and lawfull Councels, which muſt be holdē to be the very rule and lyne to rule all others, and what proceeding and order the Pope and his do obſerue in theirs. And as touching the reſt, eueryevery man may the more eaſely vnderſtand the other poyntes and matters th…t therin are entreated of, by the litle ſummes or titles, by the which we hauehave packed thē together ſhortly, declaring them in order, euen as we hauehave done in the Dialognes going before. It is eaſye to iudge by thys ſom, why I hauehave geuen thys title to thys Dialogue.

❧ The thyrd Dialogue, intitled, the authoritie of Councells.

¶ Of the aſiſtance of the holy Ghoſt in lavvful Councels: and of his giftes: and of the perpetual conſeruation of the truth in the church.

Tymothe.

Daniell.

1IF thou haddeſt tyme I woulde verye gladlye that thou wouldeſt continue thoſe matters, of y^e which p. 110we did diſcourſe at our laſte departure of the one, from the other. D. I am readye when ſo euer thou wilte be ready to heare. And therfore declare what thou haſte to ſaye, as touching the writings of the auncient Fathers and Doctors, & what difference there ought to be put betwene them and y^e decrées paſſed and determined in the lawfull Councells. T. When theſe good fathers and auncient doctors, do teach or write any thing in particular, they may more eaſely erre, being as particulars, thē when they are aſſembled together at the Councel, in the which the ſpirit of God doth aſſiſte in greater effecte and vertue, in ſo much as the giftes & graces which he hath geuen to eueryevery member of the body of Ieſus Chriſt, are all there together euen as it were in one perfecte Roma. xii. i. Cor. xii Ephe. 4 i, Sam. 101 Cor 12Eph 4body. Wherefore the one helpeth the other, and eueryevery man feeleth the more preſently the vertue of the ſpirit of God in himſelf. For if Saule which was forſaken of God, dyd prophecie among the Prophets, after y^t he was come into their companies, in ſuch ſort that it became a common prouerbe among the Hebrewes, and it was ſayd: is not Saule alſo amongeſt the Prophets? Is it not more like to be true that God will geue the ſpirite of prophecie to them that come together to the Councell for his glory, and for the edification of the Church? For where is it that the promiſes by y^e which God doth promyſe his perpetuall aſſiſtaunce, and an euerlaſting courſe of truth to his church, ſhoulde hauehave place, if not in ſuch a company? Hath he not ſayd: behold, my couenaunt which I hauehave made with them. My ſpirit which is in thee, and my wordes which I hauehave put into thy mouth, ſhal Eſay. iixIsa 10not depart frō thy mouth, nor frō the mouth of thy ſeede foreuer. And agayne, he will geue you an other comforter, the ſpirit of truth, to the end that he tarye with you. And he ſhal Iohn. xiiiiJohn 14lead you in the knowledge of all truth. D. I will not vtterly denie al that thou ſaieſt, if they come together to that end that thou ſpeakeſt of. But al Synedes, Seanes and Councels, hauehave not alwayes ben aſſembled in the name of Ieſus p. 111Chriſt. The examples which are in the eccleſiaſticall hyſtoryes doe witneſſe the ſame, and the Canons and decrees which hauehave bene ordayned and concluded in them. For oftentimes they repugne the one to the other, as much as do: the fyre and water.

¶ VVhat thynges there are to be deſired in Councells, yea euen in thoſe Councells vvhichwhich hauehave beene moſte excellent and lavvfull of all thoſe that hauehave bene celebrated and holden ſince the tyme of the Apoſtles.

2T. I Would very gladly y^t thou wouldeſt proue by ſome examples worthy of fayth, y^t which thou now ſayeſt. D. Euen thoſe ſame y^t hauehave bene moſt lawfullye aſſembled, although thei hauehave ordained & eſtabliſhed very good things, founded vponupon the word of God, and y^t they hauehave mightelye defended the cauſe of y^e truth, & that God hath not ſuffered them to erre in the chiefe pointes, & in matters that are properly the very ſubſtance of religion, and do concerne the articles of the fayth, neceſſarye vntounto ſaluation: yet doth it not follow for all y^t, but y^t they may hauehave erred in ſome thinges, & that they may hauehave made conſtitutions that ſomtime are more contrary to y^e word of God, thē cōformable. And without ſeking any further, we nede but to examine y^e Canons, decrées & ordinaunces of the Councell of Nice, which is accompted y^e chiefe of all, next to y^e Councell of y^e Apoſtles, & of all y^t reſte conſequently, which men thinke to be y^t moſt perfect & certayn, & moſt worthy of credite: and it ſhall be eaſye to iudge, if eueryevery of thē hold in al reſpectes y^e Apoſtolike maieſtie & authoritie, how farre of they are oftentimes frō y^e puritie of doctrine, which was in y^e primitiue church. For God would not do vntounto others that honour, which he hath done to his Prophets, & Apoſtles: to the end y^t the humaine authoritie ſhould not be cōparable to y^e deuine, which ought alwaies to be preferred. How many lawes & conſtitutions may men fynde made in theſe Councels, which draw more p. 112nere to mans wyſedome: or to Iewiſhe and Paganiſhe ſuperſticion, then to the ſimplicitie of the doctrine of the Apoſtles? I ſpeake of the verye ſame that hauehave bene decreed by thoſe Councells that are beſt allowed in the church of God and Chriſt, and are worthye to bee eſteemed the true ſeruauntes of God.

¶ Of the vveakeneſſes that hauehave bene founde at the Councell of Nice, in them that vvere there gathered and aſſembled, and vvhat holy and excellent perſonages there vvere preſent at the ſame.

3T. THou ſpeakeſt as yet but in generall: I praye thee let vsus now come to particular examples. D. We ſpake laſtly of the Councell of Nice: but thinkeſt thou that all the decrees of the ſame be as wel founded vponupon the holy Scriptures, as were the diſputations, arreſtes and determinations which were there agreed vponupon againſt the Arrians? T. I hauehave no occaſion to doubt it, if I ſee not the contrarye. D. If all thoſe which are named vntounto it, were there determined, there are ſome touching the diſcipline of the Church very ſuperſticious & curious, and an other ſorte rigorous and curious inough. Moreouer I ſee no greate apparence in that which forbiddeth men to knele, when they praye on the Sondaies, and on the day of Pentecoſte. I leaue that whereof Gracian maketh mencion vnderunder the ſame title, concerning the conſecratiō of temples or churches: becauſe it is to beaſtly and to vnworthy of ſuch a Councell. On the other part, how much wanted it that it was not forbidden the miniſters of the church to vſe their lawfull wiues, yea by the common conſent of all ſuche as dyd there aſſiſte, directlye agaynſt the worde of God, if one Paphnutius had not had more of the ſpirite of God in that behalfe, then all Hiſt. trip. li. 2. c. 13. 14. Euſeb. hiſt. ec…l. li 10. …the reſte of the Councell, who letted that determination, by the very worde of God. Moreouer in the ſame Councel was not the Emperour Conſtantine greatly aſhamed, to heare p. 113the Biſhops and paſtours of the church, which were men ſo greatly eſtemed for their doctrine and holynes of life, ſo to accuſe the one the other (being perſonages of ſo greate honeſtie) and to contend and outrage one an other, as it had bene a number of women that had chidden. Was he not conſtrained to caſte all their accuſations and libells of euil report (which they had prepared the one againſt the other) in to the fire? For he well vnderſtoode that theſe affections and particular cauſes which they had one agaynſte an other, ſhoulde hinder the principal cauſes for the which they were aſſembled. For many of them were more affectionate to their particular cauſes, then to the common cauſe: and deſired more theyr victorie, then that of the truth. There were there, three hundred and threſcore Byſhops by accompte in that Councell, the flower of Chriſtendome: amonge whom was thys Paphnutius, a Byſhop of Egipte, of whom wee hauehave alreadye ſpoken, a very man of God who had endured muche for the truth, and had the gifte of myracle. Spiridion Biſhop, of Cypre, who was a very excellent perſonnage, there was in lyke ſorte preſent: Paule Neocharien Martyr, who had both hys handes burnte in the perſecution, of Maximian, and many other ſuche lyke who had the gifte of miracle, and had behaued them ſelues valiauntly and conſtauntly in that perſecution, if then the imperfections, weakeneſſes and affections wer ſo great among the Byſhoppes, in ſuche a companie, that Conſtantine was all amaſed and aſhamed, to ſee at ſuche a tyme, that ſo worthy perſonnages ſhoulde ſhewe them ſelues, in ſuche ſorte men, and ſo ſubiecte to their affections: let vsus then thincke what myght bee in our tyme, and what aſſiſtaunce of the holy Ghoſt wee may hope: for in ſuche a companie as ſhall there aſſemble. T. It is eaſie to diſcerne.

¶ Of the greate contearieties, diſcordes & diſſentiōs that hauehave ben in many of the auncient Councels, betvvene the Byſhops, and the Miniſters of the Churche.

p. 114D. LEt vsus procede: and for greater proofe of that whiche we hauehave ſaid, let men ſee in the hyſtories of y^e Church what the partialities, the bandes and diſſentions of the Biſhops hauehave done, in the Councels holden in Tyr, in Ieruſalem, in Antioche, in Sirmie, and at Conſtantinople. Moreouer Sozo. 2 c 25 hiſt. tri. li 1. 2. 33. & lib 2 c. 10. c. 30. & lib. 4. c. 10 Rut 1. c. 28 hiſt. Tri. lib 9. c 12. The…do. …. c. … & lib. 4 c. 24. & lib, 5howe hath the Councell of Alexandrie troubled that of Calcedonie, and the Councell of Antioche, that of Epheſus. There aroſe ſo great trouble in Chriſtendome, and it was ſo denided and was ſo full of ſectes, Sciſmes, hereſies and humane affections, that if men ſhoulde hauehave gyuen more place to the fauour of Emperors, kinges and princes, to the aſſembles of Popes and Biſhops, to the authoritie of Councels, to the arte and eloquence of Orators, to the ſubtilitie & vnderſtandyng of Philoſophers, thē to the truth, it had ben nedefull to hauehave abrogated, caſſed, vndone, and aboliſhed, that whiche had ben agreed, determined and hollyly confeſſed for Chriſte, and for the Chriſtian doctrine, in the Councels of Nice, Millane, Sardice, Corduba and ſuch like, many other Councels, whiche were holden after them, would hauehave ouerthrowē all that euer was determined and agreed vponupon in them, which had not much leſſe apparence then the others. Yf they had not ſo much or more. And the matters wherof the differences did growe, were of no ſmall importaunce. For there was queſtion of the diuinitie of Chriſt agaynſt Hiſt. Tri. li. 2. c. 20. Soz. 3.the Arrians, for the whiche the Biſhops of the Eaſt and Weaſt did celebrate & holde Councels, the one againſt the other, the one ſorte condemnyng the cauſe and doctrine of the Arrians, the other ſorte approuyng and maintaynyng the ſame.

¶ Of the contradiction of the Popes, and of their Decrees and Ordinaunces, the one ſorte contrarie to the other.

5T. THou doeſt declare vntounto me, things very vnpleaſaunt and offenſiue to thoſe that are Chriſtians. D. There is yet much more, as well of Councels, as of Popes whiche p. 115will be the preſidentes of them. For how many Popes hauehave there bene that hauehave condempned and aboliſhed that, which their predeceſſors hauehave eſtabliſhed & ordained? What a nō ber hath there ben of them, whiche hauehave euen as the aunciēt Romaine Emperors did, who when they poſſeſſed the Empire after the deceaſe of their predeceſſors, did abrogate and make of none effect, all that euer their predeceſſors had eſtabliſhed and ordeyned? Behold one Pope ſhall make lawes, and ſhall cauſe a Councell to be holden for his purpoſe, in the which he will ordaine, what ſo euer ſhall pleaſe him, and ſhall commaunde it vnderunder payne of excommunication and euerlaſting curſing, that the ſame ſhalbe kept and obſerued among the Chriſtian people. And after him there ſhal come an other, whiche ſhall aboliſhe all that, and ſhall do cleane contrarie, he ſhall excommunicate and curſe all thoſe that will do that whiche before was commaunded vnderunder payne of excommunication and dampnation. T. Yf it be ſo, the Chriſtian people can not chuſe but ſtand alwayes a curſed. D. It is certaine. For it is an impoſſibilitie to obſerue and kepe their Decrees and ordinaunces, without fallyng into ſuch perplexities and inconueniēces: he that will not beleue me, let him rede their Canons and Decrees, and Platina whiche hath written, the lyues of the Popes, and hath bene nouriſhed and broght vp in their Court, and Sabellicus, & the other hiſtorians which hauehave entreated of theſe matters. T. I beſeche thee ſhewe me ſome examples to proue this to be true, to the end that I may not thinck that thou ſpeakeſt of pleaſure, without proofe. D. Yf I ſhould alledge al thoſe that I might gather out of their bokes, I could find ynough wherwith to outretayne thee a long tyme: but I will hold me contented with a reaſonable nomber, to ſatiſfie thy requeſt. We wil firſt ſpeake of the Canons and Decrees that the Popes hauehave made the one ſorte contrarie to the other. Platin…What agreement is ther betwene the Pope Iohn, the xxij. & the Pope Nicholas, when the one pronounced iudicially y^e p. 116Ieſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles poſſeſſed nothyng neither in priuate ne yet in common: and the other did the cleane contrarie. …ecre. 4. …itl. de diuor. ca 5 Plat. SabelIn the matter of diuorce, Celeſtine doth permit that the faithfull partie ſhall marry agayne: yf that the other partie be fallen into hereſie, Innocent on the contrarie denieth it. Afterward, Stephen the with hath cut of and made of none effect, the actes of the Pope Formoſus, by the authoritie of the Councell: and agayne Iohn the x. who ſucceded this Stephen, did condempne his ſentence in the aſſemble of Rauenna, here muſt it nedes be of neceſſitie, that not onelyonly the one or the other of the Popes hath erred, but alſo y^t Coū cels whiche hauehave folowed their opinions and ſentences, whom they hauehave abuſed, to cōfirme their errors, abuſes, and tyrannie by their authoritie. Wherfore Gerſon, which was one of their owne doctors, ſayd not without greate reaſon, that y^e ſaying of one doctor approued by y^e Canonical Scriptures, was more to be credited then the declaracion of the Pope, and the ſaying of a doctor well ſene in the holy Scriptures, and alledging the vniuerſall authoritie, was more to be credited then a generall Councell. T. He did not amiſſe, for ſomuch as they do ſo diſagree amonge them ſelues. D. Panormitan which was at the ſame tyme, a man of great reputacion, and was preſent at the Councels of Conſtance …nor. in …a ſignifi. de Elecii.and Baſle, as Gerſon was, hath ſayd no leſſe, althoughe he were a great Idolatre of the Papacie: for he ſayd that we ought more to credite the ſaying of a ſimple lay man, alledgyng for hys proofe the Scriptures, then to all the whole Councell.

¶ Of the contrarietie of the Decrees of many Councels touchyng the Mariage of the Miniſters of the Churche.

6T. I Do not a litle maruell, that ſuch mē durſt affirme any ſuch thyng in thoſe dayes. D. It is ſo: but the veritie is of ſuch power, that ſhe conſtraineth her very enemyes, yea the deuils them ſelues, to confeſſe her, but folowing our p. 117purpoſe, for ſo much as we hauehave ſpokē of Popes, let vsus now come to the cōtrarietie of Councels. The Coūcel of Nice, Hiſt. Tri. li. 2. c. 13. diſt. 31 c Nicen. Plat. in. vita Silu. Diſt. 28 cap. Si quis & diſt. 30. Siquis virorū. diſt. 31. c. Quoniam.of whom we hauehave already ſpoken, which was holden in the yeare three. C. twentie and three, did alow the Mariage of Miniſters of the Churche, and condēpned thoſe that would forbid it. The firſt Councell of Sangres, holden in the yere three hundred thyrty and three, hath done no leſſe: and did accurſſe al ſuch as vnderunder colour of Religion, ſhould leaue their fathers, mothers and wines. The ſixth Councel of Cō ſtantinople, hath in like ſorte ordeyned that no man ſhould make any vowe to lyue without a wife, & that the Prieſtes whiche ſhould ſeparate them ſelues from their wiues, for theyr holy orders ſake, ſhould be excluded from the Communion. diſt 27. c. Quidam.The Councel of Anticyre, holden in the yeare three hū dred and foure, hath in like ſorte permitted that Deacons ſhould marrie, yea euen after that, they had receiued theyr orders. And as concernyng the Councell of Carthage, holden Ex Car. … ▪in the yeare foure hundred twenty & one, in the whiche the hereſie of Pellagius was condempned by two hundred and ſeuentene Biſhops, among whom S. Auguſtin was, it appeareth manifeſtly, by the twelueth conſtitucion of the Apoc c. … Extra de. Clem Co…, lib. 6. c. 1. Ep…p. li 2 Tom. 1. hereſ. 41ſame, that the Biſhops and other men of the Churche were married. And Boniface the viij. did ſuffer the religious to enioy their liberties, althoughe they were married. The viij. Councell of Tolletto, doth allowe to breake al vowes and othes whiche are made agaynſt the fayth. And Epiphanius doth earneſtly condempne thoſe, who hauing not the gift of continencie, had rather for ſhame of the worlde, to commit fornication and adulterie ſecretly, then to marrie. On the Albert. Craut…. in Saro. lib. 4 ca. 43 Navvcler.contrarie, the Councell of Neoceſarie, holden the yeare three hundred and thirty, and the ſecond Councell of Carthage, holden the yeare foure hundred and twentie, & after them the Coūcell of Magonce, did condempne the Mariage of Prieſtes and Miniſters of the Churche, & did wholly forbid it, and did binde the Prieſtes, Mōckes, and Nunnes, to p. 118vnlawfull vowes, impoſſible for men to kepe, & were cleane contrarie to the worde of God. Thys Councell of Magonce was holden by the Emperour Henry the iij. in the whiche he aſſembled an hundred and thyrtie Biſhops, Some ſaye that the Pope Leo the ix. was there alſo preſent at it. It was alſo ordeyned in that Councell, y^• men of the Church ſhould keepe neytheir hounde, greyhond, ſpaniel, nor hauke, ne yet ſhould vſe any ſeculer traffique, and that none ſhould be receiued for a Monke, vnles he came of his own free wil, and were of lawfull age: but theſe Decrees hauehave not ben ſo well obſerued as hath the forbidding of Mariage. Likewiſe Gregory the vij. a Monk of Clunie, otherwiſe called Hildebrād, which was Pope in y^e tyme of the Emperor Henry the iiij. did commaunde by his letters to Otto Biſhop of Conſtāce, Naucler. …lbert. Crauts. Lambert Hirſweldneare about the yeare a thouſand fortie and ſeuen, that he ſhould forbid through out all his dioceſe all Prieſtes to marie, whiche were not then maried, and that he ſhould diſolue the mariage of all ſuch as were already married. T. I ſee in this no great accord. D. Notwithſtandyng, all this was done, and not without great tyrānie: ne yet without great reſiſtaunce. T. I beleue ſo.

¶ Of the contrarietie of certaine Councels, concerning the forbiddyng and difference of Meates.

7D. HEre is as much as I did determine to ſpeake, as touching Mariage, let vsus now come to the forbidding of of meates. The ſecond Bracarenſe Coūcell, holden the yere Di. 30. ca. Si quis.ſix hundred & nynetene, did acurſſe all ſuch, as did abſtaine from eating of any meate, thorow ſuperſticion: and y^t which the Pope Martin helde, did the like. The thyrd Councell of Tolede did accurſſe thoſe that ſhould forbid men to eate. And the Pope Eleutherius did ordayne, that no mā ſhould refraine throughe ſuperſticion from eatyng of any meate that was agreable with mans nature. On the contrarie, the Romaine Coūcell, did forbid to eate fleſhe on the Saterday: p. 119and afterward that defence was extended further, as we ſee at this day, to Friday, Vigils, Imber dayes, and Lent. T. The Papiſtes will replie agaynſt this and ſay, that by makyng of thoſe ſtatutes concerning y^e forbiddyng of meates, they do nothing agaynſt the auncient Decrees and Councels, for ſo much as they do abſtaine neither for ſuperſticiō, ne yet for any euill opinion, that they hauehave of the good cretures of God, as did the aūcient heretikes, but onelyonly for abſtinence. D. I vnderſtand it well, but if they do it for abſtinence, how happeneth it, that they hauehave on thoſe dayes theſe kindes of meat, which are forbidden, in ſo great abhomination? Why do they attribute to their abſtinence ſo great merites? why do they not rather put difference in the quantitie of the meate, then in the kind? whiche they do not at all. T. It is euen ſo.

¶ Of the Decrees of the Councell of Conſtāce, and Baſle, touchyng the ſupper of the Lorde vnderunder both kyndes, and of the ſupremicie of the Pope, and of the Romiſhe Churche, and of their contrarietie.

8D. LEt vsus now procede to other matters. The Councel of Conſtance did forbid to adminiſter, the ſupper of the Lorde to the people vnderunder both kindes, to wit, of bread and wyne, and the Councell of Baſle, did graunt both the one & the other to them of Bohemia. But there is a more ſtraūge matter. That ſame very Councell of Conſtance, doth euidently ſpeake agaynſt it ſelfe, and agaynſte that of Nice, & of Aphrique, & the whole Churche of the Eaſt and Aphrique. For it condempned that article of Iohn Hus, to wit: That the Pope by the authoritie of the worde of God, is not the head of the Churche: & yet was it decreed in that ſame Coū cell, that the Councell was aboue the Pope, whiche thynge doth very well agree with the ſentence of S. Ierome, which ſayth, if there be queſtion of authoritie, that of all the world is greater, thē is that of one towne, in like ſorte is the whole p. 120Church greater then one Romiſhe Church, and the Romiſh Church is not aboue the vniuerſall Church, but on the contrarie, the vniuerſal Churche is aboue the Romiſh Church. Now if the Pope hauehave authoritie ouer all Churches, and y^• the Councell doth repreſent them, it doth folow both that he is aboue the Councell, and that he is not aboue the Coūcell, contrarie to the determination of the ſayd Councell of Conſtance, whiche is mingled with manifeſte contradictions. I leaue a parte that whiche they did define: That the Churche was not the vniuerſitie of the predeſtinate: & that our good worckes muſt helpe to ſaue vsus, as well as the grace of God. I ſpeake not at all of the Decree that was made in y^e ſame Councell, that men ought not to holde any promiſe, othe, or ſafeconducte, made or gyuen, to heretikes, whiche thynge forthw^t was put in vſe, not agaynſt heretikes, but agaynſt the ſeruauntes of God, whiche were there condempned for heretikes, and were burned as heretikes. T. Yet was thys a general Councell. D. It was ſo. T. I do not a litle maruell that ſuch matters could paſſe in a generall Councell, whiche the heathens would not hauehave paſſed, but would rather, hauehave iudged it meete to kepe promeſſe, euen with a mans very enemyes.

¶ Of the contrarietie that hath bene in many Councels, concernyng Images.

9D. IF I ſhould alledge the diſſentions, that hauehave ben in diuerſe Coūcels concernyng Images, it would require Enti. de Re. Ro lib 23 Anton. Florent.a longe tyme. For Gregorie the iij. decreed by his Councell in Italie, that Images ſhould be honored in the Churches, and did reuolte and cauſed Rome, and all Italie, to rebell agaynſt the Emperour Leo the iij. whiche was of contrarie Auſpurg. in …hrominde. And afterwarde Conſtantine the v. ſonne to the ſayd Leo, did ordeyne the contrarie in the Councell of Aſia, and Gretia, about the yeare ſeuen hundred fortie and ſixe, at the which there were aſſembled thirtie eight Byſhops at Conſtantinople. p. 121Agayn Stephen the iij. Pope, condempned this Councell of Conſtantine, by an other Councell, whiche he cauſed to be holden at Rome in the Church of Laterane, by the Biſhops of Italie and Fraunce. The which thynge was done again by an other Councel, in y^e tyme of Hir…ne, wyfe to Leo the iiij. After that, the Councell of Nice (in the which the Greekes would hauehave condempned the Images agayne) was enforced to breake vp, by meanes of the diſſentiōs that there were, and throughe the practiſes of thoſe that helde for the Pope. Whileſt theſe thinges were in hand in Grece, the Councel Elibertin was holdē in Spayn, by twentie & nine Biſhops, and thirtie ſixe Spaniſh Prieſts, which pronounced their ſentences againſt Images: who were alſo condēpned by the twelfeth Councell of Tolede, and afterward for the Popes pleaſure, and for the French kinges ſake, they were agayne alowed by an other Councell. T. Here was good ſtuffe.

¶ Of the Councell of Carthage, concernyng the Baptiſme adminiſtred by heretikes.

10D. IT is no maruayle ſince that the Romiſhe Popes hauehave vſurped tyrannie ouer the Church, and eſpecially ſythe the tyme of the Emperour Phocas, if that there hath beene ſmal reaſon to be found in any of the Councells, but I wil alledge you others more auncient. It was concluded in the Councell of Carthage (at the which S. Cyprian was preſent Euſeb. 7. c. 5with. lxxxvi. Biſhops, to wit in maner with all the Biſhops of Aphrike, Numidie, and Mauritanie) that the Baptiſme adminiſtred by heretikes, ſhoulde hauehave no place, but that thoſe which had beene Baptiſed by them, ſhoulde bee Baptiſed agayne. The which ſentence was afterward condempned, as appeareth. Diſt 5 quare.

¶ Of the ſentence and opinion of the Papiſtes concerning the generall and particuler Councells, and of the diuerſitie of their decrees.

p. 122T. THeſe againſt whō thou doeſt inuey, will confeſſe vntounto thée that the Councells, yea the general Councels, 11in that that concerneth the manners and diſcipline of the Church, hauehave oftentimes determined diuerſe thyngs without any preiudice of the fayth, according to the condition & circumſtance of the places, times and men, and ſuch lyke. De conſangui. & affini…a cap. non debet.For this cauſe Innocent the third ſayd. That it ought not to be iudged a thing worthy of blame, if that according to the chaunge of time, mens ordinaunces dyd alſo chaunge, chiefely when an vrgent neceſſitie and an apparaunt commoditie doth requyre it. For God himſelfe hath chaūged diuerſe of thoſe things in the new Teſtament which he ordeined in the olde. And therfore mē may not raſhlye iudge and ſay, that the Councells are contrary the one ſort to y^e other, although that in thinges concerning the policie of y^e church more then the fayth, the one hath oftentimes chaunged: that the other hath decreed. For the lawfull generall Councells, were neuer contrarye the one to the other in anye peece of the ſubſtaunce of our fayth, which is neceſſarye to our ſaluation. And in this ſort muſte it be vnderſtoode that S. Auguſtine hath ſayd. The former Councells hauehave bene amended Auguſt. Tom. 7. de baptiſ. cont donatiſt. li. …. cap 3by the latter: and that the ordinaunces and decrees of prouinciall Councells, ought to geue place to thoſe of greater Councells: but y^e Canonicall Scripture doth geue place to none. And as touching the Councell of Carthage, it was no generall but a particuler Councell, as Saint Auguſtine proueth agaynſt the Donatyſtes. And in deede they denye not but y^t particular Councells may erre: and y^t they ought to be reformed by the generall, as it is already declared.

¶ Of the errours and abuſes that hauehave beene brought into the church, vvhat meane there ought to be had for the correction and amendment of ſuch Councells, vvhen nede ſhall requyre.

12D. THen they do confeſſe, at the leaſt, that the prouinciall Councells may erre, yea euen thoſe, in the which the p. 123moſt wyſe and holy men that were in the worlde ſince the Apoſtles tyme hauehave bene preſent. For S. Cyprian was one Euſeb. 7. 5. capof the beſt learned men that hath beene in the church ſince that tyme, and was of ſuch zeale towards the word of God and his church, that he dyed a martyr for the truth of Ieſus Chriſt, And then iudge you that if a Councell in the which ſuch perſonages were, might erre: what we may thinke of many Idolatries and ſuperſticions, and of many vaine ceremonies, tradicions and abuſes that hauehave bene ſowed in the church, not by Councells and particular Synodes onelyonly, but by particuler men, who hauehave charged the church to what ſo euer pleaſed them. For one hooded Monke or Fryer had beene ſufficient to hauehave inuented a thouſand maner of doinges cleane contrarye to the Scriptures, and forthwith they ſhoulde hauehave beene put in vſe, and allowed as if they had beene articles of the fayth. If it were lawfull then to chaunge thoſe ſame verye thinges which the generall and lawfull Councells had decreed, concerning the policie and diſcipline of the Church, as touching their maners, according to the nedefulnes of the circumſtaunces, and the capacitie of men, of places and tymes: it oughte then to bee no leſſe lawfull to thoſe vntounto whom God hath geuē the knowledge of hys worde to condempne and abolyſhe ſo many abuſes & innumerable errours, which by ſo many meanes and wronge waies, without order or eccleſiaſtike diſcipline hauehave beene ſowed in the Church of the Lord: and are ſo intollerable, that the very greateſt enemyes of veritye, euen the Romaine Antichriſt hauehave beene conſtrayned to confeſſe it. And without going any further to proue it, dyd not the Pope Adrian confeſſe, not manye yeares ſince, that there were many enormities and inconueniences in the Romiſh ſeate, and many abuſes, offences, and diſorders in the gouernment of the Church? And beſide thys, what confeſſion dyd the Legates and oratours of the Pope Paule deceaſed make, at the Councell of Trent, of y^e eſtate of their church? p. 124But what wilte thou ſaye if I doe proue by S. Auguſtine that not onelyonly the prouincial and nationall Councels may be corrected by the greate and generall Councels, but alſo euen they them ſelues maye bee corrected the one by the others, the fyrſt by the laſte. T. If it be ſo, our aduerſaries ſhoulde not then thinke it ſtraunge if we would not wholly dwell vppon the authoritie of their Councells. D. That ſame doth playnlye appeare by his writinges, wherevpon he declareth, when that ſame ought to be done and by what meane: To witte, that when by experience of thinges, that which was ſecret is opened, and that which was hidden is knowen, without any puffing vp in pryde full of ſacrilege, without any ſwollen arrogancie, withoute any contention and enuye, but with holy humilitie, with the vniuerſall Chriſtiā peace, he ſpeaketh here generally of all Councells, and of all that euer may be determined in them.

¶ Of thoſe that vvayte vponupon the Prelates of the Church, and vvoulde hauehave them to correcte the abuſes that therein are: and vvhat libertye eueryevery man hadde to ſovve and bryng them into the Church: and vvhat agreement & difference there is betvvene the auncient Heathen Emperours, and the Popes, and their Councells and aſſemblyes.

13T. THey doe not vtterly denye but that there are ſome abuſes and errours in the Church, but they ſay that it appertayneth not to eueryevery man to reforme them: but that the charge thereof belongeth to the prelates of the Church, vntounto whom GOD hath geuen it. Wherfore, they thinke meete, to hauehave a generall Councell, to determyne what thynges ſhoulde bee obſerued, and what ſhoulde bee abolyſhed, before that any thyng ſhoulde be chaunged or altered. D. The Seducers and falſe Prophets, which filled y^e church with errours, dyd not tarye a generall Councell to poure out their poyſon and to corrupte the Church of the Lorde, but we muſte tarrye for a Councell to pourge it: and in the p. 125meane tyme the poore ſoules ſhall goe to the deuill. Muſte we put the matter in queſtion in a Councell, whether we ought to beleue that Ieſus Chriſt is God, and the verye Sonne of God, and our onelyonly Sauiour and redeemer? Shall we doe as dyd the Emperour Tiberius, who put the matter in deliberaion in the Councell at Rome, with the prerogatiue of his voyce and the teſtimonye of hys conſent, whether Chriſt ſhoulde bee accepted and receaued amongeſt the Gods, or no? Which thing he did for that (as Tertullian witneſſeth) that the Romaines had a very auncient lawe, by the which it was ordayned, that there ſhould Apolo. 5.bee no God canonized by the Emperours, and that none ſhoulde be ſo receaued, vnleſſe he were allowed and confirmed by the Councell. For thys cauſe Ieſus Chriſt was not receaued for a God, becauſe it pleaſed not the Councell: albeit that the Emperour was of contrarye opinion. T. Then had not the Emperour ſo great authoritie in the Councell at Rome, ne yet in hys Empyre as the Pope will chalenge ouer the Councells, ouer the whole church, ouer al Chriſtendom, yea and ouer the word of god it ſelf. D. It is true, and therefore I feare greatlye that if Ieſus Chriſt were now to be receaued, he ſhoulde be as farre of from being receaued at the Councells, in the which thys Romaine Antichriſt doth preſide, as he was then at that Councell of Rome. For ſithe they doe reiecte and diſalowe hys doctrine, they do ſufficiently declare what opinion they hauehave of him. T. It can not be better knowen by any thing then by that, for that is a profe moſt ſure.

¶ Of the thinges vuhich of them ſelues are alreadye ſufficiently reſolued among all men, vvithout looking for any reſolution of the Councell: and of the negligence and careleſneſſe that is in vsus to put them in vſe, and to gouerne oure ſelues according to the ſame.

14D. IF they thinke him to bee the very Sonne of God, and that his Goſpell is the worde of God, they nede not to p. 126tarye for a Councell to determyne whether it ſhal be receaued and obſerued, or no, but woulde rather endeuour themſelues to put in execution thoſe things which are not in cō trouerſie, but are alreadye agreed vponupon & reſolued amonge all men, as well by the word of God, as by their own Councels. Let them therfore correcte their ignoraunce and beaſtlynes, their negligence and ſlouthfulnes in the executing of their office, and their pompes and ambition, their inſatiable couetouſnes, their execrable whooredome, with y^e number of thoſe horrible vices which raigne among them. For there nedeth not any tarying for y^t Councell, to condempne or allowe it, for it is alreadie reſolued. Why do they not obſerue the decrees of the Pope Alexander y^e thyrd, of Gelaſe, of Nicolas the ſeconde, of the Elibertin Councell of Tolede, of Carthage, of * Cabylone, of Chalcedonie, and of Laterane, which hauehave forbidden to any, money or preſentes for the ſatiſfaction of ſinnes, for baptiſme, for the churches, for the Sacramentes, and for the gifts of God: which ordeyned alſo that none ſhould be aduaūced to any place in the church for money, ne yet for rewardes: and that he ſhould be holdē for Apoſtatike, and not for Apoſtolike, that ſhoulde obtayne the ſeate of Rome, eyther by money or els by fauour? Why are not the poore nouriſhed and clad, and alſo the ſicke and weake, by the Biſhops, according to the ordinaunces of the Aurelian Councel? Why do the Monkes poſſeſſe any thyng in proper, contrarye to the determination of that ſame Councell? But all thys is olde and abolyſhed, why may we not lawfullye reproche them in that ſorte that Ieſus Chriſt dyd thoſe Iewes, which ſoughte to hauehave him dead, becauſe he hadde healed a man ſicke of the Palſey vppon the Sabboth daye: and yet lefte not they to violate and breake the whole law vponupon the Sabboth daye? And therfore he ſayd vntounto them, dyd not Moyſes geue you the lawe, Iohn. vii.John 7and none of you obſerueth the ſame? Why doe you ſeeke to put me to death? They declared playnely by that what p. 127zeale they hadde to the lawe, and yet woulde they ſhewe as though they had a greate care for the obſeruation therof, and chiefely in the purſute which they made againſt Ieſus Chriſt. Theſe good men doe euen the lyke, making a ſhewe as though they dyd greatlye deſire the reformation of the Church, and yet in the meane tyme there is no one peece of the worde of God, Councell nor Canon which they doe not violate and corrupte, without geuing order in anye one thing. Nowe ſeing that men are come ſo farre, there needeth nowe but a Councell to aboliſhe the reaſt that remayneth: for who be they that ſhall holde it? Euen thoſe which hauehave ſowed, authoriſed, and allowed theſe errours and abuſes. And yet will they glorye that their law, and fayth, with their whole religion is ſo well approued, that no one iote thereof ought to be called in doubte. It may be no more diſputed of, then maye the Alcoran of Mahomet amonge the Turkes, but muſt be holden for fullye reſolued, what ſo euer they do approue or diſalowe.

¶ VVhat lihertie Chriſtians hauehave to reforme the abuſes that are among them, accordyng to the povver and authoritye vvhichwhich God hath geuen them.

15T. THey will confeſſe that there are manye thinges (as it hath bene already ſayd) which may be chaunged and aboliſhed according as neceſſitie ſhall requyre: as we hauehave Actes. xvActs 15example in the Councell of Ieruſalem holden by the Apoſtles, as hath ben heretofore declared. There were thinges that wer ordeined but for a certain time, which we obſerue not at this preſent, for we hauehave not that occaſion, vntounto the which the Apoſtles then had regarde, now among the Chriſtians none are offended to ſee men eate bloude, or to eate of a ſtrangled beaſt. D. Then if the Church hauyng well conſidered the intent and end whereunto the Apoſtles dyd tend, hauehave aboliſhed in proceſſe of time y^t which y^e Apoſtles thē ſelues did decrée as touching y^e ceremonies, knowing y^t the ordinaunce did not touch at al any part of y^e ſubſtaunce p. 128of y^e fayth, but y^t it was ordained only for a bond of peace, to kepe charitie, & to beare for a time w^c the infirmite & weakenes of y^e Iewes: why may ſhe not thē more lawfully vſe her authoritie to aboliſhe y^e idolatry, y^t ſuperſticions & mens traditions, which are directly againſt y^e fayth, charitie, all good diſcipline & good order, & againſt y^e health of ſoules? And if it cā not be done by a generall conſent of Chriſtendome, why ſhal not they yet in their behalfe employ them ſelues, which ſhall hauehave beſt meanes to beginne ſome good reformation? For if it hauehave bene lawful for a hooded fellowe ſo boldly to ſet forth for y^e word of god, his dreams: ſhal it not thē be lawfull for a Chriſtiā prince, being accompanied with learned men y^t feare God, and good miniſters of the Goſpel, hauing y^e word of God for their guide, to reforme y^e churches within their dominions & countryes, according to the example of Ezechias & Ioſias, and to pourge them of ſo manye intollerable iiii. Kings. xviii. &. xxiiiabuſes, without tarying any longer for y^e determination of a Councell? But are not all Chriſtiā princes bound to doe this? for ſo much as thoſe which oughte to procure it wil not vnderſtand of it as they ought to do, but do enforce them by all meanes to hinder it y^t there ſhould be none lawfull, ne yet any thing concluded y^t were good. And therefore we ought not ſo to depēd vpō Coūcels, be they particuler or general, y^t we ſhould not do our duty always, according to y^e graces & means which god ſhal geue vsus. For we may not thinke y^e God is ſubiecte to the greateſt multitude, for then would he not hauehave ſpokē y^t which hath ben already alledged in an other place: Thou ſhalt not follow y^t great number in euil, and thou ſhalt not dwel in any thing, becauſe that many Exod. xxiii.Exod 23doe it, to wander out of the waye, and to peruert iudgement. This were a great folly to imagine, if that we ſhould thinke y^t al thoſe which ſhal aſſēble to hold a coūcell, be aſſured to ſhutte in forthwith the ſpirit of God ther: into y^t place wher they ſhal come together, to hauehave him at their pleaſure.

¶ Of the paſſages vvhichwhich the papiſts alledge to authoriſe their Councells, and of the true meaning of theſe ſame.

p. 129T. THey do builde vponupon this, that Ieſus Chriſt ſaid: Whē you ſhallbe twoo or three gathered together in my 16name, I wyll be in the middeſt of you. Beholde, I am with Ma, 18. 28you to the end of the worlde: if he promes to be in the myddeſt of two or three, by more apparant reaſon, ought we to beleue that he is in the middeſt of a whole Councel. D. But we muſt note vponupon what conditions he promiſeth to bee among them: Firſt he ſayth, that if we do agree together vpō the earth, if we be of one accorde, of one conſent, of one hart and of one ſpirite, if we be carefull to kepe vnitie of ſpirite throughe the band of peace, if we be one body and one ſpirite, as we ar called into one hope of our vocation, as there Eph. 4.Eph 4is one Lord, one fayth, and one Baptiſme, one God and father of al. And beſides this, if we be gathered together in his name, to wit in his vertue and force, and not in the vertue and power of mē, for his honor and glori, and not for ours, neither yet for our ambitiō for the edificatiō of his Churche and the health of poore ſoules, not for our profite & aduaūcement, but wiſhing veritie to hauehave the victorie, and not we: now let vsus ſee if it be eaſie to obſerue all theſe condicions, & what hope we may hauehave in our tyme of a Councell, y^t ſhall obſerue all theſe pointes, without the whiche in dede he can not be called a Councell, but rather a Synagoge of Sathā, and can bring no commoditie to Chriſtendome, but rather hurte and deſtruction: how is it poſſible to hauehave him ſuch an one as he ought to be, conſideryng that thoſe whiche ſhould procure it, feare nothyng more then to hauehave a Councel ſuch an one as he ought to be? T. It is eaſie to iudge by that, that hath ben already ſayd.

¶ Hovve that the holy Ghoſt, is neither ſubiect nor bounde to any kinde of perſon or eſtate.

17D. THere is yet one thyng more, very well worthy to bee noted, whiche is that our Lord Ieſus Chriſte, did not ſay, when a generall Councell ſhalbe gathered together, or p. 130all the eſtates of Chriſtendome, or the Pope, the Cardinals and Biſhops, or els a great aſſemble ſhall be had, I will be in the middeſt of them: but he ſayd he would be in the middeſt of them, yea although they wer but two or three, ſo that they were gathered together in his name. In the whiche he doth playnly declare, that he will be bounde neither to menne yet to eſtates, neither yet to the multitude: but how ſmal ſo euer the nomber be, of what eſtate ſo euer the men be, he will be in the middeſt of them, prouided that they come together as they ought to do. For all though the promeſſe of Ieſus Chriſt, be made to his whole Churche, yet doth it appartaine in no wiſe to hipocrites, falſe Paſtors, and falſe Chriſtians, whiche are not in any wiſe true mēbers of the ſame, whiche is the body of Ieſus Chriſt: but are members of Sathan, and of his Synagoge. And therfore onelyonly muſt it extend, to the true members of the Churche: among whome theſe thynges may be practiſed, which S. Paul ſetteth forth to the Churche of the Corinthes, ſayng: let two or three Prophetes ſpeake, and let the reſt iudge. And if any thyng be reuealed i. Cor. iiii.1 Cor 4to any other of the aſſiſtantes, let the firſt holde hys peace. There is no man but may eaſily vnderſtād, that this cā not be obſerued, but in y^e true Church of Ieſus Chriſt, & among thoſe that hauehave the gift of the ſpirit of God, which is not gyuen to carnal men, and ſtraungers to Chriſtian doctrine, but to ſuch as are ſpirituall, and thoſe whiche call vpō the name of God in truth: for the ſpirituall man may iudge …. Cor. iiof ſpirituall thynges, and not the carnal. how is Chriſt then in the middeſt of his, and doth aſſiſte thē by his holy ſpirite, in ſo much as they are gathered together in his name, other wiſe he will be in no companie, although the whole worlde were gathered together with all her pompe, if it be not aſſē bled in the name of Ieſus, to ſuch end as hath ben already declared. Wee hauehave a manifeſt example, by the ſmall aſſemblees of the Apoſtles, and of the primitiue Churche, and by thoſe of the great Synagoge of Biſhops, of Prieſtes, of p. 131Scribes and Phariſeis, and of the Councels of the Iewes: for it is written of ſuch, It ſhall be gyuen to eueryevery man that Math. xx… Oſe. iiii.Matt 20Hos 4hath, and he ſhal become plentiful: but he that hath nothing, euen that whiche he hath ſhall be taken from him. And in Oſe, bycauſe thou haſt refuſed the knowlege, I hauehave alſo refuſed thee, to the end thou ſhouldeſt not ſacrifice to me, and bycauſe thou haſt forgoten the law of thy God, I will alſo forget thy children. And therfore he ſayth, yf you abyde ſtill in my worde, you ſhall be my diſciples, and ſhall knowe the Iohn. xvii…John 17truth. Then he promiſeth not to be among them, whiche by a falſe title ſhal be aſſēbled in his name, to gyue new lawes and ordinaunces to the Churche concernyng Religion, but to obſerue and kepe thoſe whiche he hath gyuen, and to vſe y^e keis which ſhe hath receiued of him, in ſuch ſort as he him ſelfe hath ordeined. For y^e Church nedeth none other lawes, but euen thoſe which ſhe hath receiued of him, and therfore math, 16. 1…the Councell of Gangers, hath accurſed all thoſe which continue not in the law of the Lord, and do dayly make new ordinaunces. T. This is very reaſonable, and doth well agree with that whiche is written of y^e Lord, happy are thoſe Pſalm. cxi…Ps 11whiche continew without ſpot in the way, whiche walke in the law of the Lord, happy are they which do enquire of the teſtimonies of the ſame. D. And therefore Chriſt doth ſay, ſearche you the Scriptures, yf any man do louelove me, he will Iohn. v Iohn. xiiii i. Tim. iiii.John 5John 141 Tim 4kepe my worde. And S. Paul to Timothe, Geue attendance vntounto readyng. T. Theſe are very good aduertiſementes.

¶ VVhat aſſembles the faithfull do make, and of the auncient Decrees, concernyng the celebration of Councels.

18D. IF there were no queſtion, but to holde Councels and Synodes among the faithfull, whiche hauehave profeſſed the Goſpell, and to gather them together to agree them, yf they hauehave any difference among them, as there was in the primitiue Churche in certayne pointes, bycauſe the one did not well vnderſtand the other: it were but an eaſie matter, p. 132as it was for the apoſtles & their diſciples: but that could not content the world. Such meetinges and aſſembles are very good, to entertaine the Churches in peace, and in the vnion of the doctrine, and of the Chriſtian diſcipline, for that cauſe it was decreed in the v. Canon of the Councell of Nice, that their ſhould be yearely in eueryevery prouince two Councels of Biſhops, the one a litle before Lent, the other about the Autumne, which thing is now no more obſerued in the Popiſh Churche, then are other good thy …ges, whiche hauehave ben ordeyned by the Councels: all be it ſhe do glory in them, yea in the moſt auncient, and that the Councell of Antioche, chap. 20. and the Councell Agathenſe, chap. 71. hauehave alſo ordeyned and after confirmed. T. It were good holdyng of ſuche Councels: For in the meane tyme our aduerſaries & thoſe whiche are out of the way, & ſtraungers to the true Church of Chriſt, would do nothyng but ſcoffe and mocke, as they now do, and would holde other Councels, to condempne all that ſhould be determined in the true Councels, as the Scribes and Phariſeis, the Byſhops and Prieſts of Ieruſalem, did condempne all the doctrine of the Apoſtles, & of the Chriſtian Churche by thers.

¶ Of the Councels of the heretikes, vvhiche did cōdempne the Councels of the faythfull.

19D. THat whiche thou ſayeſt is no new thyng: for in tyme paſſed the Councell of Arrimine did condempne al y^t Hiſt. Tri. li. …. c. 10. 21was determined and agreed vponupon in the Councell of Nice. And although it were a generall Councell, and had in it ſixe hundred Biſhops, yet notwithſtāding it erred with Arrius, and did approue his doctrine, which before was condēpned, by the Councell of Nice. And albeit the Arrians ſought nothyng els, but to aboliſhe the faith of the diuinitie of Chriſt, agreed vponupon at the Councell of Nice, yet notwithſtanding they would arme them, with the authoritie of the ſame Coū cell, to cauſe the Confeſſion of their faith, vnderunder that colour p. 133to be receyued, whiche they had made there cleane contrary to that, whiche they there made, lyke very vniuſt and falſe men. And was not in maner, the lyke done at the Councell of Philopole in Thrace, by the Arrians againſt the Coūcell of Saraice holden in Illyrye? And did not the ſecond Councell hiſt. tri. li. 4. c 24 hiſt. Tri. lib 3. c 9. & lib. 3. c. 16, &. 34of Epheſe, alſo erre with Eutiches and Dioſcorus? T. And as touchyng the Councell of Arrimine, thou knoweſt that it was deuided, as was the Coūcel of Seleucie in Iſaurie, in the whiche a hundred and three ſcore Biſhops gathered them ſelues together agaynſt the Councell of Nice: for the Arriās gathered them together on the one part, and the true and faithful on the other part. Moreouer it is ſaid, that the Councell of Arrimine was not lawful, for ſo much as it was called agaynſt the minde of Liberius, Pope of Rome, by meanes of the heretikes, who had on their ſide the Prouoſt Taurus, whiche did ſo preſſe and inſiſte to the ſame, by prayers and by threatninges, by the cōmaundement of the Hiſt. Tri. li. … c. 36Emperour, who fauored the Arriās. They ſay alſo that the ſimple Biſhops of the Weſt, were taken vnprouided, and ſeduced by the diſceites & ſubtilities of the heretikes. And therfore after that they had well knowen them, they did retracte that whiche was concluded at Arrimine. They ſay the lyke of the Councell of Milane, holden by the commaundement of Conſtance the Emperour, whiche was an Arrian, to procure the condempnation of Athanaſe, that worthy defender of the Chriſtian faith: at the whiche Deonice, Euſebe, Paulin, Hillarie, and diuers others, were alſo chaſed frō thence, hiſt. trip. lib 4. c. 10.bycauſe they would not ſubſcribe to his condēpnation, neither agree thereunto. D. Thou mayeſt alſo well ioyne to theſe the Coūcel of Antioche, holden vnderunder Conſtantius the Emperour, an Arrian, with foure ſcore and ten Biſhops: in the whiche Athanaſe was depoſed from his Biſhopricke of Alexandrie, and condempned being abſent to exile: in which exile, he continued as ſome do write, about vi. yeares, hiddē in a ceſterne, without ſeyng the ſunne, whiche thyngs were p. 134done chiefly at the procurement of Euſebius Biſhop of Nicomedie, which ruled the Emperour Conſtantius, of whom before that tyme he had obtayned a Councell at Conſtantinople, agaynſt Alexander Biſhop of that place, to cōſtrayne him to receiue Arrius, or els to chaſe him from thence if he Hiſt. Eccle. lib. 10. c. 13.did reſiſte it. And the Councell of Cypre, was it not holden for the pleaſure of Theophile Byſhop of Alexandrie, onelyonly to chaſe Chriſoſtome from his Church, & to hauehave him baniſhed, whiche thyng he did obtayne: hauing in deede ſeduced Hiſt. Tri. li. 10 a. c. 8 Vſque ad 18. Socr hiſt eccleſ. li. 9, c, 15, 21Epyphanius, a man of great iudgement and authoritie, to be ſerued of him in ſo wicked an enterpriſe? And the Councel holden in Sidone in the tyme of y^e Emperour Anaſtaſe, did it not condempne the Councell of Chalcedonie? T. And the Councell of Epheſe of the whiche thou haſt already ſpoken, was it not holden by the heretickes, among whom Dioſcorus did preſide? Wherfore it was not a lawful Coū cell, nor in a meete place. And therefore the Popes Legates Niceph, in …naſt, hiſt. eccle. lib 2, cap, 2& Ambaſſadours, wold not be at it, but it was afterward cōdempned by the Councel of Chalcedonie: Seyng thē that theſe Councels were not lawfully gathered, nor accordyng to the ordinaunce of the holy Ghoſt, but were celebrated by heretickes, it is no meruell although they erred.

¶ Hovve it doth appeare by the contradictions, vvhiche hauehave ben in the auncient Councels, that the Councels may erre, and hovv their concluſions, hauehave in maner alvvayes bene conformable to the opiniōs of thoſe vvhichwhich hauehave preſided in them, or hauehave bene the ſtrongeſt.

20D. NO more do I approue them: but al that yet hath ben ſaid of theſe matters, do cōfirm my ſaying. For we ſee playnly by that, that Councels may erre, and that they are not ſufficient to appeaſe the diſſentions and troubles of Chriſtendome, and to aſſure the conſciences of men. For al beit that thoſe ſame hauehave ben contrarie the one ſorte to the others, yet notwithſtādyng they do all boaſt, that they were p. 135gouerned, and directed by the holy Ghoſt. There were alſo in them, men of great apparence of wiſedom, of vertue and of holynes from all parts, to gyue them greate ſhewe. They ſemed to be gathered, in ſuch ſorte as lawful Coūcels ought to be, or at the leaſt, they had euer one of them, whiche were eſtemed the chief heades of Chriſtendome, to call them together, ſince the Church hath had Emperours, Kynges, & Chriſtian princes: the authoritie hath ben geuen them, to aſſemble the Councels, bycauſe they had better meanes to do it, then others had, by reaſon of the power whiche God gaue vntounto them. Which thyng in deede was obſerued in all generall Councels, vntill the viii. that was holden in the time of the Emperour Baſile, as it doth wel appeare, by that which is writen in that ſame Councell. Act. 5. And if there hauehave ben any holden, by the cōmaundementes of the Emperours, at the whiche the Biſhops & Romiſhe Popes, or theyr Legates did not aſſiſte, then woulde the Popes alſo holde others by their authoritie without the Emperours, deſpiſing the authoritie of them, rebellyng and makyng others to rebell agaynſt them, as hath ben already ſayde. And althoughe the Pope Iulie the firſte, did greatly reproue (as Platina doth witneſſe) the Biſhops of the Eaſt, and chiefly the Arrians, Plat, in Iu…,bycauſe that without his conſent and agreement, they had holden a Councell at Antioche, whiche he ſayd they myght not lawfully do, conſideryng that the Romiſh Church was aboue al other Churches: notwithſtandyng the Biſhops of the Eaſt were not without reaſon on their ſides, to defende them with all agaynſt the arrogancie of the Pope, ſaying y^t ther was greater reaſon, why the Churches of the Eaſt ſhould hauehave the preheminence, then the Romiſhe Church or any other of the Churches of the Weſt, bycauſe the Goſpell was brought from the Eaſt into the Weſt, and that then the Imperiall ſeat was not at Rome: now be it y^t the Councels hauehave ben holden either at y^e appointmēt of Emperours, or Popes, or by the conſent of both, y^e iſſue alwaies hath ben p. 136ſuch as hath ben the doctrine & religion of the Emperours & Popes, which hauehave holdē thē. For if they hauehave ben heretiks, the concluſiō hath ben made in the fauour of the heretikes: if they hauehave ben faithful, they hauehave concluded in the fauour of the faithful. And if the heretickes hauehave founde fauour in ſome Coūcels, where y^e Romaine Popes hauehave not ben. The like hauehave they done in thoſe where the Popes hauehave preſided ſince they hauehave attained to the ſee of Antichriſt. Wer not al thoſe thinges very coomberſome, and more apte to trouble the Churche, and to offend the poore Chriſtians, then to edifie them? T. That is very cectayne.

¶ Hovve there is no hope that the Chriſtians, ſhall euer hauehave any lavvfull Councell, and reformation in the Churche, by the meanes of the Pope, or of any of his, if they beare any authoritie there.

21D. ANd if there ſhould be holdē y^• beſt Coūcell y^• were poſſible to be aſſēbled in all the whole world, there is no doubt but y^t the Pope & his would cōdēpne it. Yf it wer not to their mind. For it is an īpoſſibilitie, y^t it ſhuld both pleaſe thē, and yet be a lawfull Coūcell. And to waite, y^t the Pope & his ſhould prouide for it, accordīg as it is mete, this ſhould be a great folly: we ſe y^e experiēce of their doings at this day in ſuch matters, to be euē wholly ſuch as was y^t of the auncient heretikes in tyme paſſed. For it is certaine y^t the Pope will do nothing but for his owne cōmoditie, as it hath ben already right well ſene in all y^t euer hath ben done by him & his, in theſe affaires. T. Shewe me wherin. D. Let vsus ſee if he hauehave not alwayes choſen apte & meate places to holde a Chriſtian general Coūcel, franck & free for all nations. Let vsus ſee what worthy Councell there hath ben holden euen to this day, at Mantoa, at Vicēce, at Trent, at Bologne. The Almaignes hauehave deſired a Coūcell, & y^t an aſſēble mighte be had, they hauehave preſēted y^e confeſſion of their fayth, they hauehave offered to maynetaine their doctrine by the woorde of God: p. 137yet for all that they were neuer but alway condemned and holden for heretikes and ſchiſmatikes with al their reaſon, diets, and Councells, becauſe they were not allowed by the holy Apoſtolike ſea, nor ſigned with the marke of the beaſt. What is there then to be done? If there be a Councell holden by the one ſort, the other will condempne it. And on the other ſide: to tary til all the contrary parties be agreed, as it were needefull, that ſhoulde bee as farre out of reaſon as to tarie vntill Herode and Pilate, Annas and Cayphas, the Scribes and Phariſeis, the Saduces and Herodians, with all their whole Sinagoges ſhould agrée with the Apoſtles and the church of chriſt, whom they perſecuted and followed to the death. Shall we tary til this great king of Babilon the Romyſhe Antichriſt, which beareth the three crownes in token y^t he is king of kinges, which maketh hys feaſts and banckets to his princes & gentlemē, curtyzanes and whoores, as dyd Balthazar the king of Babilon, doe come, and throwe downe theſe three crownes, to take vp the crowne of Ieſus Chriſt? and that he wil leaue his pleaſures and delites, and chaunge them into the pouertie of the Apoſtles? Shall we tarye till he and his (which drincke y^e bloude of poore innocentes in cuppes of ſiluer & golde, which they hauehave robbed and ſpoyled from the temple of God) will deliuer vp the towne of Babilon, and to make it ſubiecte to Ieſus Chriſt the king of kings, of whom they hauehave ſtollen the titles, and occupyed y^e Lordſhips? And that they will reſtore to the temple of God, and to the holy citie Ieruſalem that: whiche they hauehave ſtollen from them, and to ſhedde their bloude, to fight vnderunder his enſeigne, and to builde vp vntounto him his holye citye and to render vntounto hym hys ornamentes and veſſells, whereof they hauehave ſpoyled him? T. I beleue that his meaning is farre otherwiſe, and y^t he hath determined to get more, for he is not yet full. D. No, nor neuer will: but will be alwaies more hungrye and inſatiable, he wil neuer yeld vntill the tyme that God himſelf do come and write the ſentence vponupon the wall or furniture thereof, p. 138as he did to Balthazar y^e king of Babilon his predeceſſor, & vntill the time that he be beaten flat downe by the ſword of Dani. vGod, & Babilon taken & wonne: according to y^e deſtruction therof fore ſhewed in the Apocalips. And ſo ſhal there neuer be any remedie, but they ſhall goe on from euill to worſe.Apoc. xviii.Rev 18

¶ VVhat prayers all men ought to make for their princes, to the end that they maye employe that povver vvhichwhich God hath geuen them, to the ayde of the people of God: vvhat a bleſſing of God it is vpō ſuch people as hauehave ſuch princes.

22T. WHat is ther thē to be done in y^• meane while? D. It ſemeth to me y^t I cā not for this preſēt geue better coū cell, thē to will mē firſt to praye vntounto y^e Lorde, y^t he will firſt ſturre vp for vsus good kings & princes, & to touch their harts, as he hath alreadie touched y^e hartes of Cyrus and Darius kinges of y^e Medians & of y^e Perſians, to make thē to come …. Chro. 36 …. Eſo. 1by y^e meanes of y^e true Miniſters of Ieſus Chriſt, to beſiege y^t great Citie Babilon, & to deſtroye y^t cruell beaſt, renouncing y^e mark of y^e ſame, which they hauehave ſo long time borne, & to deliuer y^e poore innocentes, and the poore people of God which ar captiue: & to take thē frō y^e burning fornace of Babilon, to y^e end y^e being w^tout feare of our enemies we might ſerue Ieſus Chriſt our king, in all freedome of ſpirite. But this can not be brought by y^e ſword, by armes, nor by mans power, but onelyonly by y^e cutting ſworde of God, which is in y^e mouth of Ieſus Chriſt, by whoſe breath y^e wicked & vngodly Apoc. xiii Eſay. …xi ii. Theſ. ii.Rev 13Isa 112 Thess 2ſhall be deſtroyed. Wherfore thoſe people vntounto whō God hath geuē ſo great graces to hauehave ſuch princes and Lords: which employ their power which God hath geuē thē, to the edifying of y^e holy citie of God, & the ruine of Babilon hys enemie, & do ſubmit y^e temporal ſworde which they hauehave receaued of God, to y^e ſword of Ieſus Chriſt & his word, & employ it only to ſerue him: hauehave good occaſiō to render thākes vntounto God for y^• great benefit which he hath beſtowed vponupon them, & to pray vntounto him effectuouſly to cōſerue & maintain p. 139ſuch princes, & daily to encreaſe his graces in thē, folowing y^e councell of S. Paule in his exhortation which he made to the Chriſtians, concerning y^t prayers which ſhould be made in the Church. I do warne you then (ſaith he) that before all thinges men make requeſt, prayers, ſupplications & render thankes for all men, for kings and for all others which aro ordeyned in dignitie, to the end that we may lead a peaceable life in all feare of God, and honeſtie, for that is good and agreable before God our Lord.

¶ VVhat Councell they ought to follovve, vvhichwhich hauehave princes that are tyrauntes and enemyes to the Goſpell: and of the preparacion to the croſſe for the ſame.

23T. THis Councell is very good. But what ſayeſt thou of them which in ſtead of ſuche princes, hauehave cruell tyrauntes, who being dronke with the cup of the great whore of Babilon, do perſecute furiouſly the poore childrē of God, & do dayly bathe their bloudie ſworde in y^e bloud of the poore ſhepe of Ieſus Chriſt? D. Let them pray hartely to God, y^t it may pleaſe him to appeaſe their rage and fury, and that he will ſo chaunge their hartes, y^t where they hauehave bene perſecutours, they may become true feeders of the flocke which God hath committed vntounto them, to ſaue and defend them frō the rage of that cruell beaſt, whoſe marke they hauehave to long worne. In y^e meane time, becauſe it is more to be feared that manye of the Princes, Lordes, and Magiſtrates, which hauehave alreadye taſted of the worde of God, and layde handes to hys worke, ſhoulde not looſe their taſte and waxe colde, or ſhoulde rebell agaynſt Ieſus Chriſt in proces of tyme, then there is of hope, according to mans iudgement, and the face which the worlde ſheweth vntounto vsus at thys preſent, that thoſe whiche reſiſte the truth will embrace it, receaue & maintaine it: therfore it is very nedeful in theſe latter daies y^e eueryevery mā make ready himſelf betime to y^e croſſe. We hauehave y^e experience herof very plainly in many places.

p. 140D. It is not to be maruelled at. For Sathan is continually moſt buſted, about thoſe perſonages that ar moſt excellent. And alſo there is the corruption of our nature, and the fauour or feare of men, which peruerteth many. Therfore he y^t will be of y^e children of God, let him alwayes hauehave in hys …ath. x. Luke. ixLuke 9minde theſe worthy ſentences of Ieſus Chriſt & of his Apoſtles: Who ſoeuer wil be my diſciple, let him geue ouer himſelf, & beare his croſſe continually after me, and followe me. ii. Tim. iii. Actes. 14 Iohn. 162 Tim 3Acts 14John 16And againe, who ſoeuer will liue holily in Chriſt, he muſte ſuffer perſecution. Againe, men muſt enter into the kingdome of heauē by many tribulations. The time ſhall come that he which ſhal put you to death ſhal thinke he doth God ſeruice. For we ſhoulde greatlye deceaue our ſelues if y^t we ſhould promiſe to our ſelues in this world any reſt and any eſtate or peaceable raigne, abounding in all kinde of pleaſures & voluptuouſues, and a continual peace, without any trouble or afflictiō. For we may not thinke y^t the kingdome of Ieſus Chriſt, is any ſuch raign, for ſo much as his kingdome is not of this worlde. Therfore he y^t woulde hauehave ſuch Iohn. 6. 19John 6:19an one, let him ſeke it at y^t hand of Antichriſt: for hys kingdome is in dede of this world. And further, when we are in this ſort diſpoſed, I know no better meanes, thē to trauaile with all diligence to vnderſtand aryght the will of God, by his word, and to amend our life according to y^• rule therof: deſiring him earneſtlye to geue vsus true vnderſtanding, & a hart to follow y^e ſame, & then welcome be what he ſhal ſend.

¶ Of the ſtudye of holy Scriptures, and of the decree vvhiche vvas made in the Councell of Nice concerning the ſame: and of the excellencie and authoritye of the Bible, and of his decrees.

24T. I Find your Coūſell, & your reſolution very good, & for my part it ſemeth vntounto me, y^t you hauehave ſpokē y^t which is y^e moſt ſure, & our dutie is to enquire w^t al diligence, & by al meanes of the will of God, by his holy Scriptures. D. It is the Councell y^• Ieſus Chriſt himſelf geueth, which ſaith: p. 141Search you y^t Scriptures: let vsus followe y^• example of thoſe of Beroa of whom it is ſpokē in y^e Actes of y^e Apoſtles. They Iohn. v. Actes. xvii Rom. xiiii i. Cor. iii…John 5Acts 17Rom 141 Cor 3were not like to a rable of obſtinate perſons, which wil not heare at all: nor like vntounto a number of vayne people, which lightly do allow al that euer is ſet forth vntounto them, without taking any deliveratiō, and not prouing y^t ſpirites whether they be of God or no: For they heard S. Paule, & then they ſearched y^e ſcriptures, to ſée if it wer ſo as Paul had taught. And whē they ſaw y^t he ſpake according to the Scriptures, they receaued his doctrine, as the doctrine of God. T. Here was a good order o proceeding. D. It is certayne, for we muſt eueryevery one of vsus anſwere for himſelf in proper perſon, before the iudgement ſeate of God, & not for others, nor yet by attornyes. Wherefore if others will not do their duetie, but will tarye for a Councell, let not vsus fayle to do our duetie & to followe better Councell, if we may attaine vntounto it. And if a Coūcell be of value, why do we loke for new councells? Why do we not cleaue vntounto y^e olde, which are holden longe ſince, & ought to be of greater authoritie then y^e new? If we beleue not & obey the auncient Councells, why ſhall we beleue & obey the new, let vsus rather obeye y^e Councell of Nice which did ordeine y^• there ſhoulde be none among the Chriſtians but they ſhould hauehave Bibles, to learne in them y^e will of God: thē to y^t in the which Antichriſt & his Doctors hauehave forbiddē y^e cōmon people to hauehave them, & to rede thē in their natural tonges againſt y^e determination of y^e Chriſtiā Councel. For y^e boke of y^e Bible is y^e true boke of y^e true and lawful Councells, and of the eternall ordinaunces of God, wherefore S. Auguſtine not without good cauſe ſayd, that the authoritie of the ſcriptures is much greater then all the vnderſtanding of man is able to comprehend & know, how ſubtill, fine and perfect ſo euer it be: with the which ſentence S. Chryſoſtome agreeth well, ſaying y^t the Councell maye ordeine nothing againſt the word of God: for what ſo euer Hom. de perfect. Euang,is ordayned againſt the holy Scripture, is errour.

p. 142¶ Of the true Councels vvhichwhich do excell al the reſte in authority & ar the rule by the which al the reſt muſt be examined.

T. THoſe which deſire a Councell, ſhoulde conſider in the ſame, what hath bene ordained by y^t auncient Councells, & by the holy Scriptures: to the end y^t men may know which is the true doctrine of y^e Church, & which men oughte to embrace. D. We hauehave very good meane to know it, and not to tarye at all for a Councell. For among al the Councells there are chieflye two of y^e authoritie, that all the reaſt are nothing in compariſon of them, by whom all the reaſt muſt be meaſured: whoſe decrees are ſo plaine, y^t there is no doubt in them but y^t eueryevery man y^t wil be gouerned by them, may vnderſtand them: as it is nedefull for al thoſe y^t will be ſaued. T. I did thinke there had bene foure generall Councells, to witte, that of Nice, of Conſtantinople, of Epheſe, and of Chalcedone, the which S. Gregory confeſſeth to receaue, allowe, and honour, as he doth the foure bookes of the holy Grego, i… Regiſtr. di…inc 5Goſpell. D. I do alſo confeſſe that theſe foure were y^t principall of all thoſe y^t were holden ſythe the Apoſtles time: but it ſemeth to me y^t Gregorye doth geue vntounto thē more authoritie then he ought to do in comparing them to the bookes of the foure Euangeliſtes. But what ſoeuer they be, the two of the which I ſpeake, are yet muche more auncient then are thoſe, & of far greater authoritie, for God himſelfe in proper perſon did there preſide, & did ſpeake with his own mouth, & dyd there ſhew his preſence in great maieſtie, and by great and excellent myracles & tokens. T. In what place and at what time were theſe Councells holden? D. The firſt was holden in the Mount Synai, in y^e beginning of y^e third monethmonth, after y^t God had brought y^e people of Iſraell forth of y^e land of Egipt. The other was holden in y^e country of Iewry, namely in the Mount Sion, in the Citie of Ieruſalem, at that tyme that our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt was ſeene vppon earth, and that he did accompanie among men in the forme of man, but they were called and aſſembled by other meane p. 143then the Councells of the Papiſtes, & holden in other ſorte.

¶ Of the authoritie of the princes and of the Popes concerning the Councells: and of the Popes tyrannie in that behalfe, and vvhat aduauntage he hath at this preſent.

26T. SEing we are happened vppon this matter of calling & holding of Councells, I would be verye glad if y^t thou wouldeſt declare vntounto me ſome little peece of y^e order y^t the papiſtes do obſerue in holding of Councells, to the end y^t I might y^e more eaſely vnderſtand if we ſhould hauehave as ſmall hope in thē, as thou haſt. D. Thou doeſt aſke of me a verye hard thing. For how ſhould I declare to thée y^t order of thoſe which hauehave no order? But y^e trouth is y^t thou makeſt y^• matter ſomewhat the more eaſye, in y^t that thou requireſ… of me but a litle. But yet I know not where to finde y^• litle y^• thou doeſt aſke of me, if it be true which I hauehave heard of mē worthy of fayth, which hauehave bene preſent & hauehave ſeene y^• experience of it. Thou ſhouldeſt hauehave ſpoken a greate deale more aptly if thou haddeſt required me to declare vntounto thee y^e diſorder: the which alwaies they cloke in ſuch ſort, that it ſhall ſeeme in dede to thoſe that ſhall beholde the manner of their proceding, that they wil obſerue y^e order y^t hath bene vſed in y^e auncient Councells, ſauing y^t the Popes do alwayes ſeke to encroche not only vpō y^e authoritie of Emperors, kings, & Chriſtian princes, more then y^e auncient biſhops did: but alſo vpō the word of god, & the Church. T. In what ſort? D. We hauehave alreadie ſhewed how the auncient Emperours, kings, & Chriſtian princes did accuſtom to aſſemble y^e Coū cells: not alwayes by tirannie, but by good accorde & agrement w^t the good Biſhops & the true paſtors of the Church: now y^e Popes do not onelyonly take vntounto them authoritie ouer Emperours, kings, & chriſtian princes, ſuch as in time paſſed they were wonte to hauehave ouer y^e Popes & the other Byſhops: But alſo whē they hauehave had the meanes. They hauehave cauſed Councels to be holdē of their own authoritie in deſpite of y^e Emperors & princes▪ whē they did know that they p. 144coulde not hauehave the Emperours and princes at their deuotion: as we hauehave alreadye ſhewed by example. But now in theſe daies, becauſe y^t the greateſt number and y^e greateſt princes of Chriſtendome are much at the deuotion of the Pope, they do more eaſely agree together in this poynt, thē thoſe which are of contrarye religion▪ if there be any other which do not well agree with him, he maketh no great accompt of them, but eſtemeth them vnworthye of his Councell. T. Hath he not reaſon ſo to do?

¶ Of the manner of the proceeding of the Papiſtes in their Councels, and of their preſidentes, and of the princes Ambaſſadours that are ſent thither, and of their inſtructions, and of the practiſe of the Pope and his, and of the diſputations that they hauehave there.

27D. THe Councell being appoynted and called, if y^e Pope, the Emperour, the Kinges and the Chriſtian princes be not there preſent, they hauehave then there their Ambaſſadours & Legates, to repreſent their perſons, they hauehave alſo their inſtructions, to lead them according to that y^• eueryevery of thē hath in charge: if y^t Pope be not preſent to preſide, then his Legates do preſide. Theſe worthy mē, before they come thither, do firſt aſke, as it is mete for ſuch Prophets as they ar at y^e mouth, not of y^e ſoueraign god, but of the Pope their God vponupon earth: to vnderſtand of him how he will hauehave thē to conclude in y^e Councel. For ſeing y^t he is God, he hath alſo his holy ſpirite agreable to his deitie. And when they are in this ſort well inſtructed of y^t will of their God, thē go they on inſpired with his ſprite, & do put forth to y^e Councel thoſe articles which they hauehave in charge from their God to propone, whoſe kingdoō & glory they hauehave chiefly in recōmēda ciō. Whē this is don, thē they diſpute of thē in ſōe gret haul and ther thoſe y^t wil diſpute are heard, not to find out therby y^e truth, & to conclude accordyng to y^e ſame, but to make a countenance to hold ſome forme of a lawfull Coūcel, in y^e which it was accuſtomed to geue audience to all y^t woulde p. 145come, as wel of y^t laitie as of mē of y^e church, for y^e cōcluſiō y^t ſhall be made, is already determined, in the ſecret Councell of the God of the earth, whiche gouerneth that Councell by his holy ſpirit: albeit it he remayn ſtil encloſed and hiddē in the ſecret chamber of his breſt and harte, and of his authoriſed Apoſtles, vntill the tyme conuenient. Then his Legates whiche are the firſt borne of his children and creatures, declare the will of their holy father, and their God. T. Here is a goodly order of procedyng.

¶ Of the prudence that is required in the diſputations, of the Councels of the Papiſtes, and hovve daungerous it is, for thoſe that behoneſt to be there.

28D. IN the meane tyme it behoueth thoſe y^t diſpute, to hauehave good regarde, in what maner and forme they frame their argumentes & ſilogiſmes, and how they propone their diſputacions. For if they do not conclude, accordyng to the maner, forme and ſhape of that concluſion, whiche is already made betwene the holy father and his Legats, or if they caſt not their concluſion in the ſame moulde, they will forth with gyue them to vnderſtand, that they are not ſene at all in that Dialectica and Logicke, whiche is required of them. Wherof it foloweth that either their concluſions are deſpiſed, as thoſe of vayne men, whiche ſpeake in the aire, or els if they do ſomewhat preſſe or touche the honor of that God, whiche raigneth in that ſame Councel, the daunger is very great, for thoſe that ſhall make any ſuch cōcluſions. For afterwards they muſt nedes of force diſpute with fagots, executioners, and fire. For that is the laſt refuge, whereunto theſe worthy pillers of mother holy Churche hauehave their recourſe, & the God in whom they hauehave greateſt hope, to witte the God of the Chaldees and Perſians: as we hauehave ſene by experience in the perſons of Iohn Hus, and Hieroſme of Pragne, at the Councell holden at Conſtance, about an hū dred or ſixe ſcore yeares paſſed. For he that agreeth not to the concluſion of that Antichriſt, and of his ſpirite, the ſame p. 146doth ſinne agaynſte the holy Ghoſt, wherefore y^e ſinne is not to be forgeuen, & there may be neither Pardon, nor Indulgence found, wherby to purge the Church, ſauing onelyonly by fire. T. Surely here is a goodly procedyng, and very meete for the Vicar of Ieſus Chriſte and his Apoſtles.

¶ Of the reſolutions and concluſions of the Papiſticall Councels, and vvhat perſonages they are that hauehave voyces in thē: and vvhat ſcoole maſters the Biſhops hauehave there, & vvhat order they do there obſerue.

29D. NOw when the diſputaciō is ended, they muſt needes come to the reſolucion and finall concluſion: whiche is not done openly, nor by the conſent of all, but is done in y^e Conclaue, in a ſecrete place, where none are admitted to come, but the Popes Legates, y^e Patriarches, the Biſhops, and the generals of the Monckes. Theſe do there conclude what ſoeuer pleaſeth them, without hauyng any regarde at all to any thyng, that hath ben debated of, in the Councell, but to that, wherunto eueryevery one of them pretendeth, & thoſe who hauehave ſēt them thether. And for ſo much as the greateſt part in maner of the Cardinals and Biſhops, that do there aſſemble together, to make vp a nomber, are oftētymes but well fed and fatte beaſtes, ſhodde and horned, & fatte Aſſes, & Mules loden with benefices, they muſt hauehave ſome kepers & Muletters to gouerne and to direct them. And bycauſe they are in ſuch matter much lyke vntounto litle children, they hauehave nede of ſcoole maſters to inſtruct & teache them, & to ſupplie their ignoraunce. T. And who be thoſe Aſſe kepers & muletters that thou ſpeakeſt of? D. They are often tymes a certayne nomber of hooded Moonckes, and bellye Dyuines, whiche often tymes are in maner as ignoraunte as their ſcollers, & as veri Aſſes, & Mules as the Aſſes & Mules y^t they gouerne & lead, ſauing y^t the one ſorte is more heuyly laden thē y^e other w^t benefices, & that the one ſort hauehave a litle more ſence & knowledge, & the others more farmes & Lordſhips, p. 147but their cōſciences are all one. T. Then are theſe mē to y^e Cardinals & Biſhops, in ſtede of y^e holy ghoſt, by whoſe inſpiratiō they ſpeake, being inſtructed by thē. D. It is true: but this holy Ghoſt, is but a litle portiō & a depēdance of the vniuerſall ſpirite of y^e holy father, of the whiche the Legates are filled. For all theſe hooded belly diuines, pretend none other thing, but to fiſh for ſome Mitre, Croſſe, ſome good be nefice or fatte prebend, wherfore they are there as kitchine dogges, wayting for ſome ſoope. Theſe are the dumme dogges of whom the Prophet Eſay doth ſpeake. T. Then Eſay. x….Isa 10they do not greatly care whether they do barcke at y^e wolfe and byte him: or no. D. They are not there for any ſuch purpoſe: for their beyng there is onelyonly to flatter, to pleaſe and to procure their worldly honor and profite, and to hauehave their portion of the pray whiche thoſe wolues do gette. And therfore they teach the Nouices to ſet their ſayl accordyng to the wind which they ſeedoth blow, and accordyng to the ſpirite by the whiche they know that the Legates are gouerned, & thoſe who ſent thyther both thē, and the Biſhops, to the end that there might be there agremēt of ſpirites, & that all thoſe particular ſpirites might agree & reſolue with that vniuerſall ſpirite which doth there preſide, wherfore they hauehave not at any tyme ſo great diſſention and diuiſion, but that they may well ſay in their concluſions: It hath ſemed good to the holy Ghoſt and to vsus, to witte that holy Ghoſt, whiche preſideth ouer them.

¶ Of the matters of diſcorde that may be in the Councels of the Papiſtes: & of the cauſes of the agreement that is amōg them: & hovv daungerous it is for thoſe that do maintaine the cauſe of the truth.

30T. I Thincke for all y^t they hauehave not alwayes the beſt agremen: of the world among them. D. Yf there be any diſcorde of opinion among thē, it is not cōmonly for any matter that concerneth the honor of God, the edification of hys p. 148Churche, & the ſaluacion of the Chriſtian people: but rather for their ambitions and honours, preheminences, benefices & particuler affaires. For in maner al thoſe y^t come thyther, are aſſured the one of the other, and there is nothing in the world that they hauehave leſſe care for: then for God, & for the honor of his Church, and the ſaluation of their owne ſoules, & of the Chriſtian people, wherfore in this reſpecte they feare not one an other. For there are ſeldome any other there, but Scribes & Phariſeis, Saduces & Herodiās, Hipocrites and Epicures, Glottons & Dronckardes. Whoremaſters & Sodomites, Players & Hūters, with ſuch like, very ignoraunt in diuinitie, & of very filthy and deteſtable life, & ſhould be al excōmunicated, & accurſed and depriued from their offices, if they ſhould be iudge according to the rigor of the aunciēt Councels, & of their owne decrees, whiche do excōmunicate Ex concil Carthag Diſ. 23. Qui Epiſcopns, diſt, 24, c Nullu…,& accurſſe & alſo iudge al ſuch men vnworthy, of any Eccleſiaſticall office. And if there be any other, they are very thin ſowen. There are very few among thē, that are accompted for heretiques, as was Ioſeph of Aramathie in the Councel of the Iewes, bycauſe that he would not conſent to y^e death of Ieſus Chriſt. And if that by aduenture there be any one, from whom their happeneth any litle word to eſcape, better Hier, in Mich, diſt 3, c. eccl, 5 Luke. xxiii. Iohn. viiLuke 23John 7then frō the reſt, how litle ſo euer it ſmell of the ſmoke of the truth, y^• man y^• ſhall hauehave pronounced it, ſhall be receiued among thē, as Nicodemus was amoong the Iewes, how litle a word ſoeuer he ſpeake in the fauor of Ieſus Chriſt, he ſhal be in great daunger either to be baniſhed from y^t holy cōpanie, & depriued frō his benefices, & that at the leaſt, or els yf nede be: he ſhall be in daunger of the fire: or els to ſwallow certaine pilles of a very hard digeſtion, whiche ſhall much anoye his ſtomacke and cauſe him to looſe his voice. And I know that there are in y^e world Godly men, who can teſtifie in dede, how they hauehave wrought in ſuch matters, not many yeares paſſed, and can ſay of all that hath ben done euen to this preſent in the Councell of Trent, but how ſo euer it be, p. 149if they can not eaſily agree in their Cōclaue, and that there be any one that will not forthwith & franckly agree to that whiche y^t holy father will hauehave cōcluded there, the Legates dare boldely ſay to ſuch as ſhall ſtand agaynſt it: Conclude as you liſt, but the matter ſhall paſſe in that ſort: as it is ſaid that the Cardinall of Monte (whiche is now remounted by meanes of the Papacie, and called Pope Iulie) did lately at the Councell of Trent. And bycauſe he was ſo faithfull a Legate, and that he hath not onelyonly in that, but in all other thinges ſhewed him ſelfe, worthy of the ſeate in the whiche hee nowe ſitteth, it hath framed better with him then with others, whiche hauehave ben eſtemed men, of to much honeſty to be in ſuch a companie, of whō ſome hauehave bene glad to flee, and others hauehave had gyuen them for theyr recompenſe, drogues of very hard digeſtion.

¶ Of the practiſes of the Pope, to hauehave the determination and concluſions of the Councels, and the places vvherein they are holden, at his vvill and commaundement.

31T. HEre are very daungerous practiſes. D. There are yet moe, amōg the whiche there is one chiefly that helpeth to bryng the concluſion to what paſſe ſo euer they pretend, whiche is not vnſittyng nor vnmeete for their purpoſe. T. Whiche is it? D. It is that if the holy father be aduertiſed, that it is to be feared that ſuch concluſion as he would hauehave ſhould be hindred (albeit y^t be not much to be feared, conſidering y^t which hath ben already ſpoken) he will forthw^t make new Biſhops as many & more thē ſhall nede, to cauſe y^e matter to paſſe more ſurely on his ſide, he will take ſimple Curates, Chapellains, & ſimple Mooncks, & he will make them Biſhops in haſt, the one of Nazareth, the other of Hebron, y^• other of Beethlē, & the other of an other title, & all w^tout any Biſhopricke, they ſhal come as thicke as flyes, to make a nō ber of voyces: & they ſhall hauehave penſions & wages of two or three crownes a monethmonth, as ſcolers or ſouldiers, to entertayne p. 150thē, there duryng the Coūcell. And if the place be anything ſuſpected & not fitte for his purpoſe, & that he hauehave a deſire to hauehave the Coūcell put ouer to ſome other place, which may be more for his purpoſe, he wil hauehave immediatly ready ſome well learned Phiſition if nede require, who ſhall hauehave his ready framed reaſons, to ſhewe how that the ayre is not good in y^t place, but it is daungerous to ſuch as ſhall continew long there, & that it ſhall be better to appointe ſome other place, as it was practiſed not long ago. T. By that that I can vnderſtande, all is done there of purpoſe. The whole is nothyng els but a very Comedie or playe, in the whiche y^e blinde are ſet vponupon highe ſcaffoldes, to leade the blinde, & to playe their part, accordyng to their ſcrolle & cedule, which is giuen them. D. Behold here their maner of working.

¶ Of the ignoraunce of the Popiſhe Biſhops, and hovv farre they are of from that, that the vvorde of God and the auncient Canons require of them.

32T. I Find it very ſtraūge, that the Biſhops, which be there aſſēbled, as leaders of the blind, & reformers of religiō, to direct and inſtruct the poore Chriſtiā people, hauehave nede thē ſelues of ſcoole maſters, & other blind guides, to lead thē. D. This doth not agree w^t y^t name of a biſhop, which they bear Actes. xxActs 20y^e which admoniſheth thē y^t their office is to be watch mē ouer y^t Lords flock. It is not according to y^t admonitiō, which S. Paul giueth thē, ſaying, take good hede to your ſelues, & to the flocke, ouer the which the holy Ghoſt, hath appoynted you watchmē & kepers, to gouerne & fede y^t Church of God, which he hath purchaſed with his bloud. T. They hauehave their worthy aūſwere ready for y^t: to witte y^t they be not Biſhops of y^t tyme, nor ſuch as they were to whom S. Paul ſpake in this paſſage: and y^t they ar not appointed by y^e holy Ghoſt to fede y^e flocke of Ieſus Chriſt. D. In y^t thou ſayeſt very truth: for they ar feders & Paſtors onelyonly to fede thē ſelues, as wer the falſe Paſtors of whō the Lord cōplayneth by Ezechiell. p. 151Exec. iiiWherefore they nede no greate knowledge, nor yet to obſerue y^e Decrees & Canons of Pope Hilarie y^e firſt, of Alexā der the ii. of Innocent the vi. of Boniface the iii. of Gelaſe, & of Zozine, which hauehave ordeined that none ſhould be receined into any ſuch office, vnleſſe he were very wiſe & knowē Plat. in vis. Innoc. Rom. Que. 16. diſt 36. c. illiterato: &. c. Qui eccle.to be of good life & doctrine, and y^t benefices of the Churche ſhould not be giuen, vnderunder payne of curſing, neither for fauor nor gifts, nor to any other, then to men of ſuch learning and life as is required for ſuch offices, and that the ſhepe of Chriſt muſt be kept by their own Paſtors, and not by hirelinges and Vicars. T. We ſhould finde a great nomber accurſed, if ſuch Decrees ſhould take place.

¶ Of the finall concluſion and reſolution of the Councell of the Papiſtes, and the ſolempnitie of the daye vvhereupon it is done.

33D. BUt we hauehave left the beſt of the play vntouched, which afterward is turned into a Tragedie: to witte, y^• Seſſions, in the whiche y^t declaratiō of all the concluſiōs which they make in y^e Cōclaue, is opēly publiſhed in y^e Church. T. I pray thee thē go thorow & make an end of y^e play. D. The day wheron this is done, all they of y^e towne where they are gathered to Coūcell, muſt make a feaſt. The Cardinals and Biſhops doo aſſiſte al there, in their ſieges & ſeates, clothed with their robes, & decked as it were bridegromes. For it is there y^t the play muſt be plaide in deede. And for ſo much as they hauehave had frō els where before y^t tyme, & not frō thence, the inſpiracion of their holy ghoſt, & that they be already reſolued in that, that they go about, they do not then at all cal for their belly diuines & hooded men, whom before y^t tyme they had for their ſcoole maſters, but in ſuch ſort as they cal the reſt of the hearers: for there they nede thē not. Notwithſtandyng this, to the end that they may giuegive all men to vnderſtand, that the determinaciōs whiche they hauehave brought thither, already framed by them without the ſpirite of God, p. 152before that euer they came thyther, do procede frō God, and from his holy ſpirite, they begyn with inuocation of him, to witte with a faire blaſphemie, to oultrage the grace of him, and to renounce Ieſus Chriſt our Lorde, by whom it is gyuen, for they ſing a faire Maſſe of the holy Ghoſt, with ſuch ceremonies and ſo great mockeries, and fooliſh toyes, that the litle children would be aſhamed to ſee it. For the Maſſe muſt be Epiſcopall, now there are many myſteries and ceremonies in ſuch Maſſes, moe then in thoſe that are ſong by ſimple Curates and Prieſtes. Ther is there alſo harmonie, chauntyng, and great ſtore of Muſicke, euen as there was in the ſolempne feaſt holden at Babilon, by the commaūdement of Nabuchodonoſor, to cauſe hys greate golden Image to be honored. There is alſo a gaye and pompouſe proceſſion, in the whiche all the players, that playe in that play, are clothed and diſguiſed accordyng to the partes that Dan. iiiDan 3they playe. Then do they crye out for the holy Ghoſt (with whō they would not hauehave to do notwithſtandyng) with very great deſire Veni creator ſpiritus: to the ende that he may come and inſpire them, to do that whiche is all ready done, when this is done, euerye mans opinion is aſked, of thoſe thinges whiche are there proponed. VponUpon the whiche eueryevery man playeth his part, accordyng as he hath learned it, and aunſwereth accordyng to the concluſion, which is al ready made. Thoſe whiche hauehave better memorie then the reſt, and do truſt thereunto, pronounce their ſentence by hart, the others reede it accordyng as it hath ben gyuen them in writyng, in the cedules that their ſcoole maſters, and inſtructors hauehave made for them. In the whiche often tymes there happeneth great inconueniences. For there are ſome that hauehave ſo groſe heades, and hauehave ſo euill ſtudyed their rolle, y^t they are maruelouſly troubled to reede it a right. And often times it is ſene that diuerſe of thē hauehave one kinde of Billet, for ſo much as one ſcoole maiſter hath made them al, & hath geuen verye one theme to hys diſciples.

p. 153¶ Of the order that the Biſhoppes do obſerue in geuing their conſent in the Councels: and of the ende, and of the curſes of the ſame.

34T. IF the worſt happen, it can not be denied but that ther is great vnitie of ſpirite among thoſe mē, for ſo much as they ſpeake all by one ſpirite. But is there nothing els? D. Thoſe that wil make no long diſcourſe, are diſcharged by one word of two ſillables, and a bowed downe head, to vnderſtand placet, which ſignifieth, it pleaſeth mee: For if ther were one ſyllable more, which ſhould be diſplicet, ſignifieng it diſpleaſeth me, the anſwer would be very perilous. When this is concluded, the holye ghoſt, without whoſe councel they hauehave determined and done all that euer they would, and whom they hauehave greuouſly offended and blaſphemed, hath notwithſtanding determined and concluded all thoſe thinges, according to their ſayinges. Wherefore they muſt be accompted euen as though they had proceded from the mouth of God. And if there be any one that wyll ſay agaynſt it, he is excommunicated, anathematiſed, and accurſed. Therfore, when their ſentence and finall concluſion is in this ſorte publiſhed, they then frame the fourme of their excommunications, anathematiſations, and curſignes, wherewyth they thundder and lighten horriblye againſt all their enemies. And not being contented wyth that, to the ende that their thundrynges and lightninges ſhould not ſeme to be without vertue and force, men muſt come to fyre and weapons, to mayntaine and defend theſe holy determinations. T. This maner of proceding is very meete and worthy of ſuch men as do embrace it. D. Yet notwithſtanding it is the very maner & order that they do obſerue at this preſēt. For it muſt nedes be that after this feaſt of Nabuchodonoſor, the furnace muſt be warmed alſo. T. Then I do not greatly maruel, if that Chriſtendome receiue final fruit of ſuch councels, if they be holdē in none other ſorte, ther is no great hope to be had of them. D. And good cauſe why, for their holy ghoſt is to muche burning, p. 154and of fire greatly different from him that was ſent to the Apoſtles, vponupon the day of Pentecoſt. T. Therfore I am wel Actes. iiActs 2content that we leaue them, & that we ſpeake of that councel of the which we began to talke, and let vsus ſee what order was there obſerued, without any more beholding that Tridētine play, ſo magical & bloody. D. It ſhal be the beſt. T. Seing that thou art of that opiniō, I wil not ſuffer thee to be long at reſt, before I return to thee, to hear thee ſpeak of ſo woorthye a matter. D. I truſt by the helpe of God, it ſhal not be all together without fruit.