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Christian Instruction and Sum of Doctrine Part 1 · Pierre Viret

Christian Instruction and Sum of Doctrine Part 1, Dialogue 2

The contentes of the ſecond Dialogue named the waitinge for the Councell, or the Nevvtrall Goſpellers, to vvit, ſuche as vvill deale betvvene the true & falſe Religion & doctrine.

BYcauſe, that the lookynge for a generall Councell, to appeaſe the troubles yt are in Chriſtendome in cauſes of Religion, doth feede and entertayne many poore ignoraunt men in vayne hope, and doth let thē from the diligent ſearchynge out of thoſe thinges, that belong to their ſaluation, I hauehave determined fully to entreate of the matter in Dialogues folowing, in whiche I will playnely declare, what hope the Chriſtians may hauehave of a Coūcel, and what they may thinck wil come of it, and how hard it wilbe to aſſemble it, and what iſſue, or what good, or euil we ought to looke for of it, and what profite the lawfull Councelles maye bryng to Chriſtiantie, and whiche is the true Councell, vponupon the which ye true Chriſtians ought to repoſe and to inſtructe theyr conſciences. And in handling of theſe matters, I wil touch chiefly in this Dialogue, what hope wee maye hauehave in ſuch affaires, as wel of their part, that are called Prelates of the Church, as of the parte of the Chriſtian princes, as they hauehave gyuen vsus well and ſufficiently to know by examples, and by experience that we hauehave had already of the Councell of Trent. And after that there is ſome thing ſayd of the Interim, and of ſuch ſoliciters & worckers as will ioyne Ieſus Chriſt, & Antichriſte together, & in ſtede of Chriſtiās, make Samaritās, & of the opinion of ſuch as ſay, yt the Coūcel cā not erre, which is alſo continued in ye other Dialogues folowing, in ye which I do a little paint & ſet forth, ye maner of proceding, whiche the Papiſtes obſerue in their Councels, and I do cō pare it with that, whiche God did vſe in his Councel that he helde with his people, firſt in the moūt of Synay, and after that in the hill of Sion. I do ſhew alſo what preparatiō ther ought to be for the doctrine of ſuch Councels, and how that thoſe two Councels, conteine all the doctrine of the old and new Teſtament, & how they do ſo agree together, that they both tend to one, vponupon whō onelyonly it behoueth vsus all to ſtay. Wherupon alſo I make mention of the agrement and difference that may be betwene the old and newe Teſtamēt, betwene Moſes and Ieſus Chriſt, betwene the law & the Goſſpell, and the law which is called the lawe of grace, and the law of rigour, & of the aboliſhing & alſo of the vſage of ye law of Moſes, and of the vengeance of God, which is prepared agaynſt thoſe that will not willingly receyue the Decrees, & Canons, of this great and godly Councel, and ſhall abuſe his worde, and of the great grace: whiche he hath offered to men, in his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt our Lord, which things ſhal be entreated of eueryevery one in his place. And as touching this preſent Dialogue, I hauehave intituled it, the waitynge for the Coūcell, or the newtrals, in reſpect of the principall matters that therin are handled or entreated of.

❧ The ſecond Dialogue, intituled the waiting for the Councell, or the Newtralles.

Of the reaſōs vvhichwhich cauſe many to deſire & vvait for a Councel: and of the trouble that the difference vvhichwhich is in Chriſtendome in matters of Religion, doth bryng to ſimple and ignoraunt conſciences.

Daniel.

Timothe.

D. THou dooſt well remēber where we left, as touchyng thoſe that wayt for a Councell. T. Yea in dede. D. Will theſe men tary to beleue in God, to ſerue him, and to enquire of his will, vntill the tyme that the Councell hath ben holden, and that it hath determined what order of lyfe we ſhould folowe? T. It ſemeth that theſe mē take their foundation, of that which thou haſt ſaid, that if they ſhould ſerue God truly, it were firſt requiſite to be well inſtructed and aſſured of his will. D. Wherfore do they not then forthwith and withall diligence enquire therof? why do they then tary for a Councell? T. Bycauſe they ſay, that in ſo great diuerſitie of opinions, as at this preſent day, is in Chriſtendome, in matters of Religion, they know not whiche to folow in ſurety. For they ſee that ſome teache after one ſort, & the others after an other: & that ther is often tymes as great contrarietie of opinions, as betwene white and blacke, and betwene fire and water. That whiche one aloweth, an other diſaloweth: that whiche one holdeth for Chriſtiā doctrine, and for true ſeruice of God, an other condempneth it as hereſie, or els as ſuperſtition, hypocriſie, Idolatrie, and Apoſtaſie. And beſides this, ther are of both ſides perſonnages of great apparance, great vnderſtanding and great authoritie, accordyng to the iudgement of the worlde: notwithſtandyng the multitude is farre greater of the one ſide, then of the other: men heare their diſcourſes, men read their writtinges & bookes, there are goodly reaſons of both partes, which eueryevery of them endeuoureth to proue and confirme by the holy Scriptures, and by all meanes poſſible. In this cauſe, what ſhal a poore man do, whiche feareth to offend God, and hath a good deſire to ſerue him, accordyng to his wil, but he may not wel attain to ye knowlege therof, bicauſe that which the one ſaieth is the wil of God, the other ſayth it is not the will of God.

Hovve that the difference that is in Chriſtendome, in matters of Religion, ſhould not ſtay men from the diligent enquirie of the vvyl of GOD, but ſhoulde rather prouoke them thereunto.

T. I Confeſſe that theſe differences, which are in Chriſtendome, engender great trouble in the poore conſciences of many: but that ought not at all to let them to enquire by all meanes poſſible, of the will of God, and to employe thē ſelues with al ſpede poſſible to ſerue him: but they ſhould the more earneſtly be moued, and prouoked to do it, to ridde them ſelues, with as much ſpeede, as they myght out of ſuche troubles. For why, leaſt they tary in it, if they hauehave any feare of God, in what trouble ſhall they lyue: and what quyetnes maye they euer hauehave in theyr conſciences. I for my parte ſhoulde thincke that I were in hell, if I ſhoulde longe lyue in ſuche eſtate, without hauynge ſome thynge certayne, and reſolued in my mynde, whereunto I myght aſſuredlye ſtaye. T. For thys they require a Councell: for they thincke there wil bee there men of greater iudgement then they are, by whoſe meanes the matter ſhall be ſo debated and examined, that there ſhall bee a generall, and a ſure determination, throughe the which eueryevery man may be out of ſcrupule and doubte, and may know wherunto to truſt. D. It ſemeth vntounto me, that their hope is very ſlender, if they hauehave no better hope then this. I maye not deny but their deſire is good, we all ought to deſire the ſame, if there were any hope to ſe it come to paſſe, & that with ſpede: for ye ſoner it were, yt better, bycauſe it is much more daūgerous to delay or defer the medicyning of ye ſoule: thē of the body, for if the medicine of ye body come not in tyme to hym yt is ſicke, yt ſicke perſon is not in daūger, but onelyonly of his bodely life: but if the medicine of y• ſoule be to long deferred, ther is daūger of eternall death: wherfore, I do greatly feare, that manye doo periſh, in tarying for thoſe medicines. T. There is much to be feared, and alſo to be doubted in this matter.

VVhat profite the Churche of God may receaue of Councelles, and of theyr iſſue.

D. THe Sinodes & lawfull Coūcels, is one of ye beſt remedies yt mē may hauehave, to take away cōtrouerſies in religiō, it is ye remedi wherunto in like caſes yt Apoſtles & their true ſucceſſors, & al yt aūciēt church, hauehave oftētimes had their recourſe: for albeit that the Coūcels, hauehave no authority nor power to giuegive vntounto ye churche any newe doctrine nor yet to forge ani new articles of faith, but only to hold & maintain y• doctrine, which is reueled by ye holy Scriptures, & yet notwithſtāding they ſerue to great purpoſe, in ſo much yt they be as publike witneſſes vntounto it, to ſuccor ye infirmitie of the ſimple & weake, & alſo ſuch as ſhall come after vsus, by ye confeſſiō which is made of ye ſame by thē, & by the publike teſtificatiō y• there is declared, by ye perpetual cōſent of ye Church, of ye doctrine of the Prophetes & Apoſtles. But although the Councels be ordeyned to this end, & that ye aūciēts hauehave had more rule of thē ſelues & better meanes, much more meete for ſuch a purpoſe, then we hauehave at this preſēt: yet notwithſtāding they could neuer obtaine yt in their Coūcels, which they deſired. And ſuch vntowardnes was there, yt they did alway not onelyonly not apeaſe ye differences, & aboliſh ſciſmes, & hereſies which troubled ye Church, but oftētimes euē there right many new did ſpring, & hauehave ben afterward frō tyme to tyme encreaſed: if it were nedefull to proue it by exāples, it were eaſy to do, but we will not now enter into ſuch matter. I will cōtent me for this time, to alledge onelyonly touching this matter, yt teſtimonie ye Gregory Nazianzen (which was Maſter to S. Hierom) did giuegive, writting to Procopius of ye Coūcels of his tyme, whiche were nothyng ſo corrupted as ar thoſe of our time: if I muſt nedes, ſayth he, write ye truth, I hauehave determined to refuſe al the Coūcels of Biſhops. For I hauehave foūd the iſſue of no one Synode good, or rather that they hauehave more encreaſed the euil, then quenched it. Here is the iudgemēt of Nazianzene, touching this matter. Which ſemeth to me ſomethynge harde, for it can not bee denyed that ſome of the auncient Councels, hauehave greatly profited vntounto Chriſtianitie, notwithſtandynge that the peruerſitie of the wicked, hath alwaye hindered that the frute and iſſue hath not ben ſuch as was to be deſired, yet notwithſtandyng, Nazianzene hath not gyuen iudgement of the Councels without ſome iuſte cauſe, or lyke a man that dyd not knowe what the matter meant, but like a man of great vnderſtandyng, and one well exerciſed in thoſe matters. T. At the leaſt he lyued in ſuch a tyme, and bare ſuch office as of reaſon he ought to hauehave had great experience.

Of the hope that men may hauehave of the Councell, in theſe dayes, and of thoſe that there ſhal aſſemble, and of the iſſue thereof.

D. NOw if Councels had ſuch iſſue in thoſe dayes, that Nazianzene had iuſt occaſion to make ſuch complainte: what hope may wee hauehave in theſe dayes, of ſuche lyke remedie? For, firſt of all, what hope may we hauehave to aſſemble a Coūcel onelyonly? yea and if it might ſo come to paſſe, that one might be aſſembled, what goodnes might we hope for of it? For whoe ſhall aſſemble it? who bee they that ſhalbe there aſſembled? Who ſhall there preſide? Who ſhall make the determinacions and concluſions of it? and who ſhall execute them? Yf a man would reforme or ſuppreſſe a ſtewes, to whom wouldeſt thou gyue ſuch a charge? Wouldeſt thou gyue it to the maſter of the ſtewes? and wouldeſt thou, that he ſhould hauehave the chief auctoritie in that reformation, and that his bawdes and ruffiēs, whoremaſters and whores ſhould gyue their voyce and ſentence, and that all ſhould be done, accordyng to their will and minde? Might not mē hauehave great hope, to hauehave ſome good reſolucion and reformation in ſuch a caſe, of ſuch a Councell? T. It ſhould be a greate mockerie, euen lyke as to make the wolfe to be keper of the ſhepe. D. Doubtles no more is there any likelyhode, conſidering the ſtate of thinges at this day in Chriſtendome, to hauehave any Councel much more honorable. For if the Pope and his miniſters, hauehave their auctoritie, whiche they hauehave had in time paſt, euen ſith they hauehave vſurped that tyranny, whiche they now exerciſe ouer the Church, & that they pretend to hauehave there, thou mayeſt eaſelye vnderſtand what ſucceſſe men may looke for. For it is a thing moſt certayne, that ſuche men wil neuer agree to hauehave a councell holden, vnleſſe they know it to be for their profitte, and that they may there rule at their pleaſure, euē as they now pretēd to do in their Coūcel of Trent. For if they did not think to reigne & rule there at their pleaſure, it would hauehave beene a hard matter euer to agree thē therevpon, or to hauehave drawen them thither. And if they may obtayne this, it ſhall not be a Councel, but a coniuratiō & conſpiracie againſt God, as was the councel of Annas and Cayphas, of the Scribes and Phariſies, and of the prieſts of ye lawe, and of the councell of Ieruſalem againſt our Lord Ieſus Chriſt. This ſhal be a Councel to eſtabliſhe more ſtronglye the ſeate of Antichriſt, and his tyrannie agaynſt the Church, and wholy to aboliſhe the courſe of the Goſpel, and to fill the whole earth with the bloude of the innocentes & Martyrs, which ſhall ſuſteine the truth, and rather die, then to renounce Ieſus Chriſt. T. Certaynly for my part I thinke it to be the onelyonly mark wherat they ſhoote. For what may we looke for at the handes of him, & of all his race, which hath bene a murtherer and homicide from the beginning of the worlde, we nede not to doubte whether the Antichriſt the ſonne of perdition and all his generation which make warres againſte the truth, be the very naturall and lawful children of thys great murtherer & father of lies. Wherefore it muſt needes come to paſſe: that they worke the workes of their father, and that they put in practiſe thoſe artes and ſciences: which they hauehave learned in his ſchole.

Of the meanes that the enemyes of the truth doe vſe for the maintenaunce of their kingdome, and their falſe religion, and of the hope which they hauehave geuen by their Councel of Trent for the reformation of the Chriſtian church.

D. AT the leaſt they do declare right well by their threatninges howe well they are inclined to followe that occupation. For in dede what coulde they do without that? in ſo muche as the ſworde of the worde of GOD is not to maintayne their cauſe and deuelyſhe eſtate, they can not finde one more meete then is the materiall ſworde, and the fire and fagots. There is the Bible which they hauehave for their defence, with the which the tyrantes and executioners furnyſhe them. T. Their librarie is euen meete for their ſtudie. D. By theſe meanes ye Chriſtianitie ſhall be in worſe eſtate then now it is, and there ſhall bee leſſe hope of reformation of it, thē before was. And without paſſing any further, and without going from their councell of Trent, they hauehave already geuen vsus a fayre teſtimonye of the good will that they beare to a true Chriſtian reformation: by thoſe goodlye determinations which hauehave beene concluded not long ſince, in their ſeſſions of that worthy coniuration and conſpiracie of Trent. T. The matter is plaine, and therfore doeſt thou no wrong to ſuch a councel rather to cal it a conſpiracie to reſiſte the truth, then a councell to maintaine it.

Of the daunger into the vvhichwhich they put them ſelues that attend onelyonly vponupon the councell, without ſeeking any other reformation, both in them ſelues and in the church.

D. ON the contrary, if they ſhould know yt their tirannie mighte hauehave no place, then woulde they finde all the meanes poſſible to inuent how to let it, yt there ſhould bée no councell at all holden: or if there muſte nedes be one, to hinder in all matters all the good that might otherwiſe procede. And in this ſort, what ſhall become of thē this meane while that depend onelyonly vponupon the councell without hauing anye other care of religion, or of the reformatiō of the ſame? And if they had none other care at all, they ſhould die in their ignoraunce, and doubt where in they are: and ſo ſhould go to holde a councel in hell, where I doubt not but yt they ſhould finde Popes inough to procede ther, & Cardinals, Biſhops, Prieſtes and Monkes, to hold there a goodly generall councell, better furniſhed of ſuch perſonages, then any that a mā might now finde in Chriſtendome, if they holde it in ſuche ſort as they hauehave alreadye begonne, & that ſuch perſonages do there rule, if theſe men which attend for a councell be alreadie in errour: they ſhall there be more confirmed therin, and ſhalbe in worſe ſtate then before. If they hauehave receaued any light of the word of God, it is greatly to be feared leaſt it ſhould be clerely put out in them, being blinded with the apparence of the authoritie which men geue to councells.

Of the hope that men may hauehave of thoſe Chriſtian princes vvhichwhich do reigne at this preſent for to reforme the church by the meane of a generall councell: and of the negligence and vvante that is in that behalfe, euen in thoſe churches vvhichwhich glory of the Goſpell.

T. YEt is there hope to remedie theſe thinges by the helpe of the Chriſtian princes. D. I ſee no greate hope in that behalfe. For who be the Chriſtian princes that maye geue order in this? if they be ſeduced by the Pope and hys, that Antichriſt will be ſerued of them for to make him continuallye more ſtronge: if they be well inſtructed in the doctrine of the Lord, and that they hauehave a deſire to reforme the church according to the rule of his worde, that Antichriſt forthwith endeuoureth to ſturre vp al thoſe princes and nations yt are abuſed by him to hinder ſo godlye an enterpriſe. And when one prince wil, an other will not. Wherefore, it will be a very long time before mē may cauſe all ye princes and other eſtates of ye world, by whoſe meanes ſuch aſſemblies ought to be made: to agrée in one opinion, and to come together and to conſente in one ſo holye a worke. For we ſhall finde in all theſe eſtates thoſe ſame difficulties, lettes and excuſes, whereof we hauehave already ſpoken. For there is ſo great contempte of God and of hys worde, and ſo greate negligence and careleſnes in all eſtates, concernyng thoſe things that touch the honour of God, & the health of ſoules, and ſo great a burden of their owne glory, and priuate profitte, and their hartes ſo rooted in the earth, that they forget heauen, and can finde at no tyme any leaſure to labour in the worke of the Lordes houſe. T. That is a verye great euill. D. We may eaſely iudge what hope we ſhall hauehave of a generall reformation, by meanes of a generall councell, by the experience of thoſe thinges which we daylye ſee, in thoſe places where God hath alreadye geuen of hys grace to princes & Magiſtrates: to laye their hands to his works: to beginne ſome maner of reformation in his church. Let vsus beginne with ye beſt reformed church that may be found in chriſtendome, and let vsus compare the forme and order of it with that that was in the auncient church: I meane not of the moſt perfect that euer was, as of that of the Apoſtles, but of that church that was longe after the Apoſtles tyme, what difference ſhall we finde? T. I thinke we ſhall finde very great difference. D. So great as we ſhall be aſhamed to call a reformation, the reformation that we ſhall therein find, ſeing ye deformitie that ther yet doth reſt: wherof eueryevery man complayneth, and yet no man can remedie it.

Of the negligence and vvante that is in the miniſters of the church, and generally in all other eſtates, wherby the reformation of the church is hindred.

T. WHat is the cauſe thereof? D. EueryEvery man in his calling, for oftentimes it is ſeene that the Miniſters are negligent in their miniſterye, and doe not call vponupon the magiſtrates and people, exhorting them to execute their offices vprightly and ſincerely, as they ought to doe: for often tymes it is ſeene that they them ſelues do as much or more feare a reformation, then others do. And if there be defaulte and negligence in thoſe men, which ſhoulde be a lyght vntounto others, let vsus then well wey what may be found in the magiſtrates and people. For there are very few which on their part feare not a reformation, and deſire not at all to frame it according to the rule of the worde of God, to directe theyr liues and maners according to ye ſame: but rather to make the worde of God ſubiecte to them, and to hauehave a reformation according to their own will & pleaſure. And frō whence commeth al this: but onelyonly from an euill conſcience and of a diſordinate deſire that is in men, of a carnall libertie, and of a manifeſt rebelliō againſt God? For they will not hauehave God to reigne ouer them, but they will liue and reigne at their pleaſure. They can not endure to hauehave their naughtie affections, and diſſolute maners to be bridled, and the abuſe of their eſtates corrected, and their tyrannye ſuppreſſed by the worde of God. They beſturre them on eueryevery ſide by all meanes poſſible, and employe all their forces to caſte of: the yoke of the Lord, to the end they wil not be ſubiecte to him: and conſider not in the meane time that in refuſing to yeld vntounto God that obedience whiche they owe vntounto hym: they reſt ſubiectes to the deuil, and become daily more and more his ſlaues: for they had rather to reigne by the deuil, and the deuill to reigne in them, thē to liue and reigne by God, and God to reigne in them and ouer them. Wherefore we may well ſay of them altogether, that which S. Paule did of the miniſters of his tyme, at which time the worde of God dyd geue fruite in other ſort then now it doth. EueryEvery one ſayeth Phill. 1he is about his own buſines and careth but for himſelf, and not for Ieſus Chriſt. It cōmeth ſomtime to paſſe that there are good miniſters, and that on their part do acquite ſome pece of their duetie in thys behalfe: but thoſe which are ioyned in the ſame miniſterie with them, & ſhoulde helpe them, and drawe with them in the ſame yoke that they drawe: are oft tymes thoſe that hinder them more then any others. T. When this happeneth the hindraunce is not ſmall, for one onelyonly horſe that draweth backewarde, doth hinder more then ſixe horſes which draw forward are able to ouercome.

Of the empeachmentes that men geue one to an other in the reformation of the church: and of the punyſhment of God vponupon them for the ſame cauſe.

D. IF it ſo come to paſſe that the Miniſters agree wel, and do wel acquite them of their duetie, peraduenture they ſhall not finde the Magiſtrates and officers of that ſame ſorte, which will put to their handes, to helpe them in theyr miniſterye, as their office requireth: but will rather bande againſt them, to ouerthrowe all good diſcipline, and will rather maintayne vicious men, then vertuous. Or ells if it come ſo to paſſe that the Magiſtrates and officers bee well affected towarde the reformation of the Church, they may meete with miniſters which ſhall not greatlye haſten them forward, but will rather diſſwade them from it: where they ought to perſwade them to it, and will rather geue them libertie to runne a ſtraye, then to put them in the right path. Or if it ſo come to paſſe that ye Miniſters and Magiſtrates with the officers bee all of one mind, as concernyng holye things, and do helpe one an other in the workes of the Lord (which thing is very ſeldome ſene) yet ſhall they hauehave much to do to range ye people vnderunder any good diſcipline. For ther are fewe which are tractable, and will willinglye ſubmitte them ſelues vntounto it, and if there bee ſome of ſo good a ſorte, there ſhall be ſome Miniſter or ſome Magiſtrate that ſhall ſeke to altar him and be offended with him. Wherfore ſeing that there are ſo fewe Miniſters, Magiſtrates and people, that are willing to ſubmitte them ſelues to the true reformation of God, and woulde yelde vntounto hym that obedience which of right they owe him, but they would eueryevery of them rather hauehave ſuch a reformation as ſhoulde pleaſe their fantaſie, which ſhould not diſpleaſe thē at all, but entertain thē in their pleaſures: And therfore it is no maruell if all frame not well, & that men be ſo euill matched oftentimes in all gouernmentes, and yt one be a hindraunce to the other. And it is not greatly to be maruelled at, if the miniſters doe ſeldome finde good Magiſtrates and good people, yelding to the miniſterie of the worde of God ſuch obedience and duetye as they ought to doe. Moreouer, it is not to bee maruelled at if the Magiſtrates finde very ſeldome true and faithfull Miniſters of Ieſus Chriſt, diligente in theyr miniſterie towardes the church of God, who withoute flatterye will francklye ſhewe both them and the people theyr faultes which are ſubiecte to them as they oughte to doe, and doe louelove and reuerence them as their fathers. And doe we maruell if the people hauehave more often Paſtours and Magiſtrates tyrauntes, which doe deuoure them and deſtroye them: then good Miniſters and Magiſtrates which woulde be vntounto them in ſtead of fathers, and deſire more the honour of God, and the ſaluation of hys people, thē their own glorye and profitte? For it muſte needes come to paſſe that the offring muſt be like to the Saint (as ſaith the prouerbe) and that God do punyſhe men in ſuche ſorte, the one by the other, to the ende that they maye learne to knowe in them ſelues by the iniurye which others doe to them, and by that which they commaunde of them, what iniurye they doe to God, and how he maye be pleaſed by them. If then it be an hard matter to ſet good order in the church, when either the Miniſters, Magiſtrates or people be other, then of right they ought to be, what diſcipline may we then hope for whē they ſhall be all in leage together to reſiſte againſt God, and to make warres agaynſt his worde, and to deſtroye all good diſcipline? T. That doth yet more often happen then the contrarye.

Of the difficultie that is in the vvorlde at this day, to aſſemble meete men for a lavvfull councell, and of the example of the auncient Chriſtians concerning their fath tovvards the doctrine of the Apoſtles.

D. THē if it be ſo difficulte, as nothing is more to ſet good order in a ſmall countrey or little towne, by meanes of theſe empeachmentes, yea euen in thoſe places where there is moſte light of God, and moſte hope of reformation, what will it then bee when it ſhall come in queſtion for all Chriſtendome, and for all the worlde? how harde a matter will it be to aſſemble ſo manye peces ſo euill gathered together, and the one ſo contrary to the other? If thoſe which receaued the Goſpell in the tyme of the Apoſtles, ſeing the diuerſities that then were in the religion, and the reſiſtance that was made againſt the doctrine of the Apoſtles, woulde hauehave beene contented to abſtayne from receauing of it: vntill ſuch tyme as a generall councell had bene called, where had they then bene become?

When ſhould they hauehave beleued ye Goſpell? For who ſhould hauehave aſſembled & ordayned it? Shoulde the Romaine Emperours hauehave done it: which wer enemies and perſecutours of the Chriſtian religion, which then were the moſt mightie princes vponupon the earth? Or ells Pilate and Herode, Annas and Cayphas or ells the Scribes and Phariſies, the Doctors and the Prieſtes of the Iewe, or ells the Philoſophers and the Prophets of the Paganes, which were all aduerſaryes to the Goſpel? what concluſion might men hauehave loked for at the hands of ſuch men? How ſhould the Apoſtles and their adherentes hauehave bene receaued among thoſe mē? and of what weight or value ſhould their voice hauehave bene? How longe ſhoulde men hauehave wayted before that all theſe men would hauehave agreed together, vponupon any good determination for the doctrine of true religion? That would not hauehave bene done before the day of iudgement.

Of the hindraunce vvhichwhich the Chriſtians doe cauſe in the reformation of the church, more then all others, and of the ende vvhereunto the ſuppoſtes of the popiſhe church tend vnderunder the title and name of a Councell.

T. THe world is not in theſe dayes, as then it was. For we hauehave now nothing a do, neither with the Iewes, nor Paganes, nor yet with the Turckes. And ſeyng that wee hauehave to doe but Chriſtians with Chriſtians, the hope is the greater. D. I know not. But at the leaſt I deſire it for my part, but I feare leaſt the pure truth of God, will worſe be endured of thoſe, which glorie of the name of a Chriſtiā, then of the Iewes and Turckes. For all thoſe that beare the name of Chriſtians, are not for all that Chriſtians, for for ſo much as it is an other matter, to be a Chriſtian in name onelyonly, and to be one in dede, and name together. This fareth muche like the teſtimonies whiche we hauehave already brought ſorth of auncient cuſtomes, touchyng the aunciēt Samaritanes, of whome it is writen that they feared the ii. Reg. xviiLord, and yet notwithſtandyng, they ſerued continually their Idolles: and afterward in this ſame paſſage he ſayth, that they did not feare the Lord. T. I was in mynde to deſire thee to agree theſe two paſſages, when thou diddeſt alledge them, but that I was loth to breake of your tale. D. It is an eaſye matter to agree them, for the one expoundeth and declareth the other. It is ſayd that they feared God, for ſo much as they made a certayne profeſſion of the law: but for ſo much as they dyd it not in dede, but mingled theyr auncient ſuperſtitions and Idolatries with it, it is ſayde that they feared not the Lorde, as it is declared folowyng. But let vsus come to the Samaritanes of our tyme, for truly we doe not ſee at all, more cruell perſecutours of the Goſpell, then are thoſe whiche are Popiſhe Chriſtians. But to what ende thinckeſt thou, that the Councell of Trent is continued, and that they hauehave newlye confirmed, and approued all thoſe determinations, and reſolutions that hauehave paſſed? In the ſame? Thou mayeſt well aſſure thy ſelfe that thoſe worthy fathers, whiche trauaile there, tend to none other ende, but to confirme and eſtabliſhe agayne, all theyr aunciēt errors, to the end they may hauehave a more better coulour to defende and maintayne them here after, and to perſecute the children of God, and to bathe all Chriſtendom, in the bloud of poore Innocentes, and true ſeruaunts of God do they not apparantly ſhewe, that they will not admitte any reformation, whiche is comformable in any one pointe to Gods truth, and that they hauehave no care, neither of peace ne yet of the vnion of Chriſtendome, but onelyonly how to maintaine their moſt filthy & damnable eſtate, and to oppreſſe by their tyrannie all true Chriſtianitie, and vtterly to deſtroy it? For, if they were deſirous to hear & vnderſtand ye truth, & to bring into the rightway, thoſe which they hold for heretikes, & Sciſmatikes, why do they not there admit thē, and franckly & ſafely receiue them, & to heare their reaſons, & to ſhewe thē by the word of God (if their cauſe hauehave good foū dation in the ſame) their errors, wherin they ſay yt they are? But they paſſe not for that: for they wil not heare their iudges, nor endure that the word of God ſhal iudge thē: knowyng well that by it they are already condempned, but will be iudges ouer it, and condēpne it as their aduerſary. Truly their doings muſt nedes be good, their concluſions good, & their condemnatiōs lawfull: In ſo much as they are both iudges, parties, & witneſſes, euen as their predeceſſors were againſt Ieſus Chriſt: & they hauehave their hangemē, & executioners ready at hād, to execute their ſētences. What differēce is there, betwene ſuch a Coūcell, & a conſpiracie of theeues, whiche ſweare together to take in hand, ſome enterpriſe to cut mens throtes? What authoritie ought ſuch a Coūcell to be of? What prophets are there, & what doctors, what Chriſtiā princes, how may then al chriſtēdō lawfully receiue for reſoluciō & determinatiō of ye chriſtiā doctrine, & for a true reformatiō of ye church, ye cōcluſiō y• ſhal be had in ſuch a cōſpiracie of ye enemies of God, & of al Chriſtianitie? There is no man of ſound iudgement, that will agree to this: for it is in a maner ſuch a cōſpiracie, as was yt which Salomon diſcribeth of thoſe which ſaid: Let vsus lay ambuſhes to ſhed blud, and let vsus lye in waite for yt innocent without cauſe. It is a cōſpiracie like vntounto yt of the falſe Prieſts, & falſe Prophets, Prou. i Iere. xviii.enemies of Ieremie, which ſayd: let vsus go, let vsus woūde and ſmite with the toung, for the Sacrificers ſhall neuer want wiſedom. It is much like to y• which the Papiſtes ſay: The Coūcels cā not erre. And if it be lawfull to cōſtrayne mē by force, yt feare God, & wc great ſtrokes of ſwordes, by warres, murders, & ſheding of bloud, & with great ſtore of fagotes, & mighty fiers, as theſe worthy fathers do: I leaue to thy iudgemēt, what edificatiō, what peace & vnion ſuch a Coūcell may bryng to the church of Ieſus Chriſt, & to al chriſtēdom.

VVhat Councell the true Chriſtians ought to folovve, in wayting for the generall Councell.

T. WHat ſhall we then do, if this hope be taken from vsus? D. Though we hauehave no occaſiō at al to cōceiue any good hope of the Coūcell of Trēt, yet will I not therfore ſay that al hope is taken frō vsus foreuer: but I will onelyonly ſay that we liuing in this hope ſhould be occaſioned to ſtay without any further inquiring of the wil of God, & without the aſſuring of our conſciences in his worde. And whē ſuch matter hath bene in queſtion, I hauehave alwayes bene thus reſolued in my ſelfe: Either there ſhalbe a Coūcel holdē, or els there ſhalbe none holdē. Ff ther non holdē I am thē deceiued in my waityng for it: if there ſhalbe one holdē, I know not whether I ſhall liue vntounto yt time or no, or at ye leaſt to ſee ye end, & concluſiō therof. And in ye mean time if I dye, not being wel reſolued in my cōſcience of religion: I ſhall dye in great diſquetnes of conſcience, and in great perill of my ſaluation, as thou mayeſt wel vnderſtand by thoſe matters, whiche hauehave already ben debated ſufficiently, and at large, betwene vsus. Wherefore I had rather in the meane tyme, to aſſure my ſelfe, folowyng the admonition of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, whiche ſayth: Be vponupon your garde, watche and praye, and Mat. 24. 25. Luke. 12.do like that good ſeruaunt that is alwayes ready, & looketh for hys maſter, not knowyng what houre he ſhal come. We are well aſſured that he ſhall come, but we neither knowe the day, ne yet the houre. Wherefore let vsus lyue alwaye in ſuch eſtate, as becommeth Chriſtians to be, when he ſhall come, and then ſhall we neuer be ſodenly taken.

Of thoſe vvhiche vvould agree the doctrine of Ieſus Chriſt, and that of Antichriſt together, and of the forme of doctrine, compounded to ſuch an ende, called Interum, and of the vanitie of the authors of the ſame.

T. IN dede it is the moſt ſure, but in the meane tyme it is a harde matter, to finde any kynde of Religion, wherein a man may ſo well continue in wayting for the generall Councell, as that whiche men call at this day the Interim D. Thou haſt now put vsus into a very large fielde. I would gladly that theſe foregers of Interim, ſhould declare vntounto me the very cauſe why, they do call thys newe forme of Religion, whiche they hauehave forged, by the name of Interim T. Thou doeſt well vnderſtand y• Interim, ſignifieth in the Latin toung, in the meane tyme, or whileſt. D. I do know that very wel: yet notwithſtanding I would gladly know what they meane by this worde, in the meane time, or whyleſt. T. They meane as I thinke, y• that maner of lyfe hath ben ſet forth onelyonly to that end, that men ſhould lyue according to the ſame, in matter of Religion: whileſt they away… for a Councell, in the which more ample and more certaine determination in matter of Religion, or els an other reformation, more perfect ſhalbe had. D. Is not that a very wiſe Councell? I would deſire no more, but the title of this worthy maner of reformation, to declare the great vanitie of the authors of the ſame. For either it is builded vponupon ye word of God: or els it is agaynſte it. If it bee agreable to Gods worde, there nedeth not, eyther whyleſt, or vntill, for it ſhalbe alwayes good and holy, Yf it be agaynſt it, and if it endure but one hour, it ſhal cōtinew ouer long, for ſo much as what ſo euer thynge it be, that is agaynſte God, the ſame ought to hauehave no place, neither for ſhorte, nor longe tyme. For it fareth not with gods kingdom as it doth with worldly kingdomes, neither with Gods lawes ouer the whiche we hauehave no power, as it doth with mans lawes. For when a king is dead, there is a certayne time betwene the deceaſe of the dead kyng, and the creation of ye new kyng, which is called enter raigne, whiche is a tyme betwene both, whiche is properly called neither raigne nor kingdome, for ſo much as there is, as yet no kyng choſen as head of the ſame, and mē can not ſay, that there is vtterly no raigne or kingdom, for ſo much as the lawes, and countrey ſtande in their full power and effecte, ſauyng onelyonly that they hauehave not, as yet their kyng appointed & choſen. And the like is when a cheife Magiſtrate dyeth in a Seigmorie. Nowe this can hauehave no place in the kyngdome of God: for the king thereof neuer dyeth. Wherfore as he is eternal, ſo are his lawes eternal, and the order of lyfe, whiche he hath gyuen to his ſubiectes. T. For ſo much as it is ſo, there needeth then nother other raygne nor other lawe, nor yet Interim, as theſe men woulde hauehave.

For vvhat cauſe and reaſon, the doctrine of the Interim, can not be re…eiued neither into the Churche of Chriſt, ne yet into the Popes Churche.

D. THerefore let vsus leaue of this Interim, whiche doth ſo much confounde it ſelfe, as euer did any thyng: for it is made by ſuch vnderſtādyng and iudgement, that no mā may by reaſon approue it: for ſo much as in eueryevery reſpect, it is but a very Papiſtrie, ſomewhat diſguiſed, publiſhed, and couered with a maſke, being finally different from the firſt. And therfore no mā may folowe the doctrine therof, vnleſſe that he renounce the doctrine of Ieſus Chriſte, and make a new aliance with that of Antechriſt. T. Yea and it was not framed, but to the end it myght by litle & litle, plucke backe from the Goſpell, ſuche as had already profeſſed it, and to bryng thē wholly in the end to Papiſtrie agayn. D. In dede it is accepted of none but of ſuch mē, for ye papiſtes wil none of it, & that not without cauſe: for if they ſhould receyue it, they ſhould condempne themſelues, for ſo much as the Interim doth permit things which they do vtterly condempne. Wherfore as ſone as they ſhal hauehave receiued & allowed it, their traditiōs are cleane gone: for they hauehave embraced this foūdation to build their kingdō vpō, that their Church can not erre: becauſe it is alway gouerned by ye holy goſt. Wherfore if it ſhould once by thē be admitted which they hauehave cō dēned: behold al their doctrine ſcattred & ſpilled, & cōſequētly their kingdō ouerthrowē. Afterward it wyl fare with thē as it doth wc a piece of work made of wollen threde without any ſeame: which being once brokē in any place, & that there be one threde plucked out of it, al ye reſt follow after in order eaſily. For, if yt they once do that, thē muſt they nedes cōfeſſe ye either their Churche hath not bene gouerned by the holye Ghoſt, or els that they hauehave an holy Ghoſte that maye erre. Wherfore, to auoide this inconueniencie, they wyll leaue no kinde of thyng which they hauehave inuēted: they wyll neuer acknowledge their faultes what or howe many ſoeuer they be: notwithſtāding yt they know thē apparantly, & that they be enforced to condēpn them in their own cōſcience, & yt they be ſo foule, yt the very beaſtes may iudge of them. T. I hauehave often times meruailed at yt which thou now ſayeſt: but now I do well ſee what it is that letteth them.

Of ſuch Chriſtians as be Nevvters and indifferent, vvhiche folovv the doctrine of the Interim: and of the mixture of the true & falſe doctrine, & hovv much it diſpleaſeth god.

D. FOr ſo much as it is ſo, we hauehave no iuſte occaſion to dwel at al vponupon theſe Interimiſts, ne yet vponupon their Interim, which is a name whervnto mē may ioyn whatſoeuer they will. It is a beaſt that hath a verye ſtronge and a mighty back, which wyl beare what ſoeuer men wil lay on him. It is a name made of an aduerbe, whiche doth very wel agree with the Grāmer, of thoſe Gramarianes, whiche hauehave forged it. For euen as their Grāmer. (I meane theyr diuinitie) is ſtraunge and different from all other doctrines, and eſpecially frō ye true diuinitie of the ſacred Scriptures, euen ſo hys language is very newe, and ſtraunge, and hathe hys rules vtterly different. The Greeke and Latine Gramer, hauehave the Maſculine, Feminine, and Newtre Gender, the Hebrewe hath but the twoo firſte, and wanteth the Newter. And contrarilye the Interim, hathe neither Maſculine nor Feminine, for he is neither Maſle nor Femaſle: but is Newtre, or at the leaſte compounded of Maſle and Femaſle: and ſo muſte needes by common, and muſt nedes be Maſle and Femaſle, both together, or els he can be neyther the one, ne yet the other. T. Then ſhal he bee a Monſter. D. Yea in deede verye monſtrous, and ſo contrary to the woorde of God, as nothynge more: for hys Grammer is lyke to the Hebrewe Grammer. It aloweth no Newter Deut. ….Gender, and hardlye doth it any common. It doth not permitte to couple the Oxe, and the Aſſe together in the plowe, no more doth it permit to ſowe a fielde, with ſondry kindes of grayne, ne yet to make a cloth, of ſondry ſtuffes and ſubſtaunces. It condemneth alſo the confuſion of ſeede, of nature in beaſts, and other lyuyng creatures, & holdeth thoſe beaſtes for vncleane, that are engendred by beaſtes of ſondry kindes, as are Muletes, and Mules, and ſuch other like, In the whiche it is playne, that the Lorde hath had a further regarde then to thoſe thynges, when he gaue ſuche laws: & that he would admoniſh his people by thoſe ſame, to obſerue good order in al thyngs, & to eſchewe & auoide all confuſion and diſorder. Then if the mixture and confuſion of ſondrye thynges doo diſpleaſe hym, it muſte needes then diſpleaſe him more, when that the greater parte is the worſte, as it is in the Interim. For there is very litle pure doctrine in it: and that whiche is, is ſo darckned and corrupted, that nothyng is more. Wherefore this common kynde, by whiche he wil be as a meane betwene the doctrine of Ieſus Chriſt, and y• of Antichriſt, doth right wel be ſeeme hym. For common in the Scripture, is as much to ſay as polluted and defiled, as witneſſeth Saint Marcke in his. 7. chap. and Saint Peter in the Actes of the Apoſtles the. 10. chapi. And in our language, a common woman, is a whore. This Interim in like maner, maketh vsus common Chriſtians, and Newters, like vntounto the Samaritanes. For euen as the Samaritanes were properly neither Iewes, ne Paganes, but were made of them both: euen ſo are theſe men properly neither Euangelique Chriſtians, ne yet Papiſtes, but a certayne confuſion, and mingle mangle of both together. T. Albeit that ye doctrine of this Interim, be not in all reſpectes ſo pure and perfect, as we would hauehave it, is it not yet better to hauehave it ſo, then to hauehave it more corrupted, and to be ſuch as is the doctrine of the Papiſtes. D. In dede in one thinge it is to be preferred, before the Popiſh doctrine, wherof thou ſpeakeſt: which is that the poiſon that therin is, is more hidden. Wherfore it is the more daungerous, and the more to be feared and reiected. T. It is very true.

For vvhat cauſe the Interim hath taken his name of an aduerbe, and hovve in ſondry vviſe he may be applied.

D. WE may iudge of al thoſe doctrines & Religions, which are ſo confounded and mingled, as of the lawe & Religion of Mahomet: for is it any thynge better then that, of the Iewes and Paganes, for that it hath many thinges, taken out of the Chriſtian Religion, mixed with that, that it hath of the Iewes and Paganes? And more ouer, it cōmeth very aptely to paſſe, yt theſe forgers of Interim, hauehave made him a name of an aduerbe: for as an aduerbe is a woorde ioyned to a verbe, euen ſo the doctrine of the Interim, is an adiunction to the worde of God, not to opē and declare it, as the aduerbe doth the Verbe, but to darken and corrupte it. T. It is then lyke to the gloſe of Orleance, which marreth the text. D. It is a very daungerous gloſe, and ſeing then it is an aduerbe, and that it ſignifieth, in the meane time, or whileſt, or vntill, if they will interprete that woorde in the meane time euen as thou haſt ſayd, we maye alſo take him in this ſignification: In the meane tyme we die and ſhall be in daunger of going to hell: In the meane tyme Antichriſt ſhall reigne, and the Goſpell ſhall bee perſecuted: In the meane tyme they ſhall ſeeke all the meanes poſſible to ſuppreſſe and banyſhe the worde of God, and more ſtrongly to eſtablyſhe the ſiege of Antichriſt. And to be ſhorte, put to it all that euer thou wilte, and al the euill that may happen in the worlde, in the meane time, whileſt, or vntyll, will receaue it all.

VVhat profitte they vvhichwhich hauehave beene inſtructed in the vvorde of God, may receaue by the Councells: and vvhat vertue and authoritie they hauehave to bring men to the fayth.

T. I Agree well with that that thou haſte ſayd: but if there be a Councell holden, and if it ſerue nothing at all for ſuch as ſhall dye looking for it, yet notwithſtanding it ſhall profitte ſuch as may liue vntounto it. D. And yet ſhalt thou not finde there, by that meane, all that y• thou thinkeſt to fynde: for if one be holden, either it wil conclude for Ieſus Chriſt, or againſt Ieſus Chriſt. If they doe conclude for Ieſus Chriſt, and I hauehave bene well inſtructed in the word of God before hand, it ſhall not hurte me at all that I was inſtructed before hand. It hindreth not the cōmoditie that I maye receaue of the Councell, but doth encreaſe it the more: for I ſhall be ſo much the more glad, whē I ſhall ſee that doctrine approued wherin I hauehave alreadye bene reſolued, and hauehave beleued it, not onelyonly becauſe it is approued by the Councel, and by men, but for that it is the pure worde of God, and that it alloweth it ſelfe, and that the holy Ghoſt beareth me witneſſe: If I hauehave not alreadie beene inſtructed nor reſolued, either I wil credite the determination which ſhal hauehave bene made by the Councell, or ells I wil not credite it. For it is not a thinge that of neceſſitie muſte betyde that eueryevery man muſt beleue the determination of the Councels, as ſoone as they hauehave concluded: although the Councell were lawfull. For it is not in the power of men which ſhall hold it, to make all that pleaſe them to beleue it. It is a worke that is onelyonly proper to God, which geueth fayth. And to ſeke to make men beleue of force, that may not be: for fayth may not be inforced. Wherfore if I make it ſeme that I do beleue it, and do not beleue it, I ſhall then be an hypocrite: if I do beleue it, it is greatly to be feared leaſt that I do beleue onelyonly vponupon the credite of others, being moued by the authoritie of mē, rather thē by ye true perſwaſiō of ye word and of the ſpirite of God. And ſo, my fayth ſhall be builded vponupon men, and vponupon their opinions, & not vponupon God and his worde. It ſhall be then no fayth, but onelyonly an opinion readie, to chaunge as men ſhall chaunge. T. It ſhall be as firme as ſhall the foundation whereupon it ſhall bee builded.

Hovv vve maye not bee the diſciples of men, but of Ieſus Chriſt: & hovv that the vvord of god taketh not his authoritie of the church, but the church taketh hys of the vvorde of God.

D. NOwe our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt willeth that we be his Diſciples, and not ye diſciples of men, & that we hauehave none other maiſter but he, for it is onelyonly he that is gone Math. xxiiiforth from the boſome of the father, and that hath fullye reueled vntounto vsus the fathers will, and all that he hath heard of him: as witneſſeth Saint Iohn, It is very he that hath geuen vsus the whole ſumme of the articles of our Chriſtian fayth, Iohn. ii.and of that doctrine we muſte needes holde, vntounto the which, it is not lawfull for anye man to adde, ne yet Deut. 11.to take awaye anye thinge from it. It is onelyonly he that hath broughte vsus the truth, and that doctrine whiche of it ſelfe is naturallye certaine and immutable, and of hys own nature can be none other, whether men do alowe it or diſalowe it. It is the truth and that onelyonly doctrine, vpō the which, the Church may ſurely dwel, which ſhe may not, vpō the natural wit of mā, how excellent ſo euer it be, ne yet vpō vſage and cuſtom, how auncient ſo euer it be. It is a truthe & a doctrine not certayn and worthy to be receiued becauſe the Church & men do alow it: but for that it is ſo of his own nature, & can be none other. The Church doth approue it & receiueth it, and may neither reproue it, ne yet reiect it, if it be ye true Church of Ieſus Chriſt. In like maner the Synagoge of Satan may nether approue ne yet receiue it in any wyſe. For euen as the Synagoge of Satan cā not acknowledge it, but accōpteth it alway for a ſtraunger, for that ſhe Iohn. 8.is the wyfe & daughter of the deuil, which is ye father of lies, & the enemy of al truth: euen ſo by the contrary, it is impoſſible that the true Church of Ieſus Chriſt ſhould not alway acknowledge it, euen as ye daughter doth know her mother: for that ſhe is the daughter of God, which is ye truth it ſelfe, the daughter I ſay, begotten of the incorruptible ſede of his worde, and the wife of Ieſus, which is the way, the truth, & i. Pet. … Ephe. v Iohn. xvi. Iohn. xlyfe, and he by whom this truth of God is manifeſted and declared vntounto vsus. It is that ſheepe that heareth the voyce of his ſhepeheard & followeth it, & not the voyce of the ſtraunger. Thē ye word of God receaueth not yt authoritie yt it hath of the church, but the church receaueth her authoritie of it. In ſo much as ſhew is ſigned and marked with the ſeale therof. For ſhe is to be compared to a peece of paper, or parchment, & to the waxe, which geue not authoritie to ye writing & ſeales yt are written and imprinted in them, but do receiue their authoritie of them, & are made authentike by their authoritie, & by the authoritie of ye prince vntounto whom the ſeale appertayneth, & for that he hath allowed it by his authoritie. Wherefore that doctrine, which of hys nature is true and Chriſtian, can not be made falſe nor hereſie by the authoritie neyther of the Church, ne yet of any creature what ſo euer he be: and that which of her nature is falſe and hereſye, can not by anye meanes bee made true and Chriſtian, no more then God may be the deuill, or the deuill God. Which thinges the queſtionarie Doctors them ſelues are foreced to confeſſe, namely the Doctor Gabriell.In ſenten. lib. diſt. 25

Hovv the vvord of God doth allovve and authoriſe it ſelf.

T. DEclare vntounto me I beſech thee ſomewhat more plainly that which thou haſte alreadye ſpoken. D. Euen ſo as I iudge not the ſunne to be bryght, becauſe that other men iudge it ſo, and that I hauehave heard ſo ſaye, but for that he is ſo of his nature, and declareth himſelfe ſuch an one by his light: and in fine, becauſe I can not ſay the contrary, no in dede although I woulde: euen in lyke ſorte, I beleue not in the worde of God, ne yet holde it for certayne, and true, and for the inchaungeable will of God, by the authoritie of any man what ſo euer he bee, but becauſe that God, who lightneth the eyes, and geueth vnderſtanding to litle ones, Pſalm, xixhath illumined me by the light of the ſame, & hath conſtrayned me to acknowledge it ſuch as it is, and to beleue it: and I may not otherwyſe do, if I be of the children of God, and led and gouerned by his ſpirite. For, if I be of the children of God, God hath geuen me eyes by the meanes of his holy ſpirite, to ſee this lighte. And albeit that I can not ſee it if God do not geue me eyes to behold it, and that he do not open them: yet notwithſtanding hauing receaued this ſame of God, it can in no wiſe be ſhewed, but yt I muſte acknowledge and receaue it. I can not heare the voyce of God my father, ne yet of Ieſus Chriſt my ſhepeherd, but that I muſt vnderſtande it and follow it, if I be of the children of God, Iohn. 8. 10and of the ſheepe of Chriſt. For he that is of God (as Ieſus Chriſte ſayeth) he heareth the worde of God, and the ſheepe heare and vnderſtande and knowe the voyce of their ſhepeheard.

VVhat goodnes men maye receaue by a good Councell, and vvhat euill may happen vntounto them by an euill Councell, accordinglye as they hauehave bene inſtructed in the Chriſtian religion.

T. I Graunt that all that which thou haſte ſayd bee true: yet becauſe that God will be ſerued by the miniſterie of men, to make his voyce to be heard in his Church, thou canſt not denie but that the Councell may doe much good, if it be of God, to ſhewe forth the light of the truth to many which knowe it not, nor as yet can ſee it. D. I denie not that: but this onelyonly do I ſaye, that if we may hauehave meanes to be illumined before that tyme, we oughte not to hauehave a pleaſure in tarying in our blindneſſe vntill that time, but ought by all meanes to trauaile to receaue lighte with all ſpeede poſſible, conſidering that God doth geue vsus ſo many other meanes whereby to receaue it, and y• for thoſe cauſes which hauehave bene before alledged. T. I do not greatly denie that. D. And on the contrary, if it ſo come to paſſe that the Councell decree any thing againſt the doctrine of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt (as it hath oftentimes come to paſſe in times paſſed, and as it is plaine that it ſhall come to paſſe in the Councell of Trent, if the ende do aunſwere his beginning) if thou haſt not bene alreadye well inſtructed, but haſt bene nouriſhed in ſuperſtition and idolatrye, and being in that eſtate, doeſt truſt in men, thou art ſure that ye Councel ſhall ſerue thee for no purpoſe, but onelyonly to confirm thee more ſtronglye in thine errours, and continuallye to ſeduce thee more and more. And for ſo much as the ſeduction being armed with the apparaunce of the Councell, ſhall hauehave more authoritie, ſo much ſhall it be the more daungerous, and ſhall take the deper roote in thy hart. But if thou haſt beene once well inſtructed and well reſolued, thou ſhalt be thē out of this daunger, for that fayth that is founded on Ieſus Chriſt, and on his woorde, is ſo firme and ſtronge, that in Math, xvi.deede all the infernall powers are able to doe nothyng againſt it.

In vvhat thing, and hovve farre the good Councells maye bridle the audacitie of the vvicked, & geue quietnes to men

T. ALthough there be greate apparence in that that thou ſayeſt, yet notwithſtanding it ſemeth to me that thou haſt not wel ſatiſfied min two points wherin a mā might replie: For if the Councel conclude in yt fauour of the truth, it ſhall be greatlye to purpoſe for the faythfull, to repreſſe & to holde with cloſed mouthes, the rebells, the wilfull ones, the heretikes, and the Schiſmatiks. And as touching the other poynt which thou doeſt prepone concerning the inconuenience that may happen of an euill Councell: What anſwere wouldeſt thou make to thoſe which doe affirme yt the Councell can not erre? D. I wil firſt anſwere to thy firſt poynt, & then after yt we wil come to the ſecond. If the Coū cell do refrayne & make the enemies of ye truth to hold their peace, yet for all that it can not chaunge their euill hartes, but yt they wil ſecretly perſeuer in their errours, awayting ſom more mete occaſion. They wil do as the Arians & the other heretiks did, who for a time did hold their peace, fering to be puniſhed: but immediatly as ſone as they might finde any fauor, they dyd prepared again their horns, & did more hurt thē before. And think not you at al yt the papiſts would do leſſe in theſe our daies, if the Councel were lawfull, and yt their errours were there condemned, euē as they do right well deſerue: and thou mayeſt well aſſure thy ſelfe yt if they were the ſtronger partie, they would ſée whether partie had the beſt ſwordes, before they woulde agree. And then if they ſawe that they coulde not preuayle, they woulde reſerue them ſelues vntounto a better oportunitie, vntill that tyme that they might mete with ſome Emperours, Kinges, & princes, that they myght ſeduce, by whom they myght be maintayned, and to finde the meane to holde ſome other Councell fit for their purpoſe, to deface and aboliſhe all that euer ſhould hauehave bene decreed agaynſt them in the other. For it would be to greate a griefe to my Lords the Prelates and to the pyllers of the church, and to their coſins and frendes, and to all thoſe that liue by the hyre of fornications and adultryes of the greate whoore of Babilon, whiche are made droncken with the venemous wynes of her fornications (made of the tree, not of the Lordes vine, but of Sodome and Gomorre) to leaue their fatte kytchin, and to renounce their ſtalle fedde bellyes (which is the God the which they would maintayne by their Councells) to put them ſelues in order to ſerue and obeye the liuing God, and Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne our Lord. And without ſeking proofe further of, to ſhewe by the ſame what hope men maye hauehave of their obey ſaunce towardes the determinations of a good & Chriſtian Councell, there needeth no more but to beholde howe they doe endeuour them ſelues at thys preſent, and heretofore hauehave done, to obſerue the ſtatutes and ordinaunces of the auncient Councels, of the which they do ſo much glorify: yea euen of very thoſe which wholy hauehave bene made for their purpoſe. For there is no one thing which is concluded in thē according to the word of God, but that they thē ſelues do firſt tranſgreſſe it, and doe obſerue not ſo much as one point therof: vnleſſe it be ſuch as are cleane contrary to the word of God. For euen as they make lawes at their pleaſure, ſo may they diſpenſe with them at their pleaſure: for ſo muche as they are Gods vppon earth. And therefore doe feare neyther GOD nor man what ſo euer he bee, but doe permitte to them ſelues all that whiche their earthlye God, and Sathan the God and prince of this worlde doth permitte vntounto them, now if it be hard to amend and frame 2. Cori, 3. Ioh. 1…. 14.yt wicked by yt meane of a good Councell, it ſhal thē be more harde to ſhutte vp cloſe yt mouthes (by the meanes of a wicked Councell) for the children of God, who can not be ouercome euen by very death, but in dying do ouercome: I doe ſaye it ſhall be no leſſe difficile to abolyſhe and wype oute truth, which is the daughter of the inuincible and immortall God.

VVhat fruite the Church maye receaue of lavvfull Councells, and vvhat mixture there is in her of good and bad, and vvhat is her office tovvarde the one and the other.

T. I Do willingly conſent & agree to all that thou ſayeſt: but how ſo euer it be, the auncient Councells hauehave not yet bene without fruite, for at the leaſt they hauehave geuen ſome repoſe to the church for a certayne tyme, and hauehave armed the faythfull againſt the heretiques: as we doe ſee in Lib. 7. cont. Donat. Lib. 1. cont. Donat.Saint Auguſtine, for he doth arme himſelf againſt the Donatiſtes with the vnion of the holy vniuerſall church, and of the authoritie of the full Councell, as with a buckler: thinking that the full and lawfull Councell is the conſent of the whole church. I do not denye but what ſo euer Councell is holden, there may yet continue ſtill in the church many hipocrites, which will ſceme to agree with it, and yet for all that in the meane tyme they will nouriſhe their poyſon in their hartes. But the church leaueth ſuch to the iudgement Matth. xiii.of God. For euen as our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt doth playnlye ſhewe it in his parables, ſhe can not be without hypocrites ſo long as ſhe ſhall continue vpō this earth: vponupon the which ſhe can not be ſo pure, but that ſhe ſhall alwayes be myxed with good & euill. But it is inough for the church to teach ſimplye and plainly that, which eueryevery man is bound to beleue, and then the true children of the church do beleue ſimplye and conſtantly that which their mother teacheth them and that vnfaynedly, and obey her without any gayne ſaying. The hipocrites which are not her lawfull children, but miſbegotten and baſtardes, maye well through their falſe ſhewe deceiue and abuſe men, but not God: they may deceiue the eſpouſe, but not the bridegrome, wherfore ſhe holdeth her well contented, when ſhe hath done that, which ſhe is able to do, to wit to teache the true doctrine, to correcte by diſcipline ſuch as be faultie, to the ende that ſhe may bryng them into the right way, and that ſhe may entertaine them, eueryevery one in his place and vocation: or els if they be ſo peruerſe, wicked and incorrigible, that they will not chaunge theyr oppinions, and if they can do no good, with ſuch kind of men, yet will they endeuour them ſelues, at the leaſt ſo well to prouide for others, that they ſhall not be able to hurt them, nor to trouble their peace, and vnion, & in the mean time ſhe leaueth the iudgemēt of ye hart to god, and it is ſufficient for her to entertaine her ſhepe and lambes in peace, and to let the wolfes, that they ſcatter not the flocke.

VVhat prayſe is due to good princes & Magiſtrates, which employ them ſelues in the reformation of the Church, and vvhat fruite it getteth by their labor and office, as vvell for the cauſe of the faithfull, as of the hypocrites: and of the chaunges that happen in Religion, accordyng to the princes that raygne.

T. I Say not the contrarie, or otherwiſe, when the Churche is troubled and ſcattered, we ſhould reiect the meanes, whiche God hath gyuen to repayre it: whiche we may not do wtout tēpting of God. Wherfore I do very wel alow the goodwil and diligence of ſuch as trauail faithfully in ye procuring of a lawful Councel, or Synodes, ſuch as are requiſite in the Churche of God: and I Iudge thoſe princes worthy of great prayſe, which accordyng to the example of Ezechias, ii. Reg. xviii 22. 23 2. Chr. 29. 34. Ezech. iii.and Ioſias, do endeuour them ſelues to reforme thoſe Churches, that ar within their liberties and countreys. For allbeit that many dwell ſtill in their olde ſkins, yet do they their duety, for their part. They glorifie in their offices, they do aſſure & entertayne the good in peace. They are a means to make ſtrong thoſe that are weake, and do diſcharge their ſoules from the bloud of ſuch as periſhe throughe their own default, and not in that, that they hauehave not done their duety. And therfore I deny not but that of lawful Councels, there commeth often tymes great profite, for a certaine tyme, for the pollice and outward peace of the Church: but I ſay that they ar not ſufficient thorowly to appeaſe the troubles yt are in Chriſtendome, and to edifie perfectly the inwarde man, & to quiet the conſcience in deede, and to gyue it true quietnes and aſſuraunce, if nothyng els. They are vntounto the wicked as the authoritie of the ſword and of the Magiſtrate, & may wel ſtay their hands & feet, but they cā not alter nor chaūge Prou. 10their heartes, whiche onelyonly God hath in his hād, euen as the diuiſion of waters, and enclineth them to what part he wil. We hauehave the example hereof very playne in Ezechias, and Ioſias, of whom we hauehave already ſpokē: whileſt theſe good kynges lyued all errors, abuſes, Idolatries, and ſuperſtitions were aboliſhed outwardly, and put away from among the people of God, and the Churche was well reformed: but it was not clearely plucked out of the harts of them all, but was ſecretly nouriſhed, vntounto that tyme, that occaſion was offred to declare them ſelues, as experience doth witneſſe. For as ſoone as they had chaūged their kyng, and that they had a prince which was an Idolatrer, the people forthwith chaūged with the prince, and retourned immediatly to their firſte Idolatrie, as it came to paſſe vnderunder Manaſſes, Ioachim, and Zedechias. And in maner the like happned in the tyme of the heretikes, for they did alwayes either looſe or …. Re. xxiiiiincreaſe their ſtoutnes, accordyngly as they founde theyr princes. T. The auncient hiſtories of the Churche do yelde cleare and perfect witneſſe of that whiche thou ſayeſt.

Of the hypocriſie of thoſe that depende onelyonly vponupon men, in matter of Religion, and of the proofe therof.

D. NOw from whence do theſe ſodaine alterations and chaunges procede? but that the one ſort are enforced through fear to leaue of, & to ſet a good face on it: as a horſe doth whyleſt a man hath hym ſhorte rayned in hys brydle, whiche after beyng put into the fieldes, as ſoone as he is at libertie, or els as a riuer whiche is letted or holden backe by force of rampares, whiche floeth forth violently, as ſoone, as they are broken. The other ſorte do chaunge as the prynce doth, bycauſe they dwel vponupon the authoritie and doinges of men, and not vponupon the onelyonly worde of God. And therfore I ſay, that euen as the Councels, do make the one ſorte hypocrites, ſo make they the other, diſciples of men, rather then of Ieſus Chriſt. For, to receiue a doctrine, and to beleue it, for the authoritie and apparence of men, whiche do alow it, that is not properly to beleue the worde of God, although it be nothyng els but the very pure Goſpell: but it is to beleue and wholly to put truſt in men. For if thoſe men, whiche by their authoritie hauehave moued me to receiue it, ſhould happen to forſake it: I ſhould be no leſſe preſt and ready to refuſe & to ſhake it of with them, then I was to receyue it and to alow it be their meanes. We do at this preſent ſee very plainly the experience hereof in thoſe Churches, whiche here to fore hauehave bene reformed by the preachyug of the Goſpell, whiche at thys preſent hauehave receyued the Interim, and the Maſſe. For yt Interim is a very perfect tokē or proofe for mē to know in dede, who they be that hauehave vnfaynedly beleued God, and his worde, and whiche they be, that hauehave dwelled vponupon men, and their authoritie, and hauehave receiued the Goſpell, either through hypocriſie and diſſmulation for the louelove of men, and the hope of their owne gayne and fleſhly libertie, or els by perfect fayth and true ſimplicitie of harte, and by yt very perſuaſiō of the ſpirit of God in their conſcience, for the health of their ſoules, & to ſerue to the glory of God. Thoſe men that do chaunge in ſuch ſorte their fayth, with eueryevery wynde that bloweth, do playnly declare that they neuer vnderſtood Ieſus Chriſt very well, when he ſayd: Be Mat. xxiiinot ye called maſters vponupon earth, for ye hauehave a maſter in heauen, to wit Ieſus Chriſt.

In vvhat ſorte vve may eſteme men for maſters and teachers, and in vvhat maner vve are made the diſciples of Ieſus Chriſt, or of men.

T. DOth he therby forbid vsus, to hauehave maſters to teach vsus, and to call thoſe maſters of whom we receiue inſtruction? D. How ſhould he forbid it, conſideryng it is he hym ſelfe, that doth teache vsus by them that are nothyng els, but the miniſters of his grace, by whom he, whiche is our chiefe maſter, doth declare him ſelfe to vsus: wherfore ſhould he els hauehave ſent his Prophets, Apoſtles, and diſciples, to teach and preache his holy Goſpell vntounto vsus? would he not yt we ſhould heare thoſe that he ſendeth vntounto vsus, as if it were hym ſelf in proper perſon, that ſpeaketh to vsus, and doth teach vsus? Wherfore ſayd he then to his Apoſtles, he that receiueth you receiueth me, and he that refuſeth and deſpiſeth you, refuſeth & Math. x.deſpiſeth me? and after immediatly he ſheweth the reaſon: For it is not you that ſpeake, but the ſpirite of your heauenly father that ſpeaketh in you. T. What is there to be vnderſtode by theſe? how may we both hauehave, and not hauehave, maſters vponupon the earth. D. Yf by hearynge thoſe that he ſendeth vntounto vsus, we receiue the doctrine whiche they preach vntounto vsus, and beleue the ſame, not for their ſake that ſpeake vntounto vsus, ne yet for their great authoritie and apparēce, neither for the opinion that we hauehave of them, either to pleaſe them, or els to receiue ſome worldly honor or profit at their hāds: but onelyonly bycauſe it is the pure and true word of God, and yt we heare yt voyce of Ieſus Chriſt our ſhepheard, throughe their mouth: beyng certayne and aſſured by his holy ſpirite, that it is he that ſpeaketh in them: we are not then the diſciples of men, but of Chriſt. And then is that ſame fulfilled in vsus, whiche our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte alledgeth of the Prophete Eſaye, and that whiche hee him ſelfe expoundeth in the Goſpell of S. Iohn: And thy ſonnes ſhalbe all taught Eſay. iiii… Iohn. 6of God. Then who ſoeuer hath heard, and lerned of the father, commeth to me. For when we beleue, hauyng bene ſo taught by God, it is for his ſake, that we do receyue the doctrine, Pſal. lxxx…and we take him for our maſter, and not the men: all beit that he doth communicate his name vntounto thē, bycauſe that they are his ſeruauntes and miniſters: as the name of God is gyuen vntounto Iudges, Prophetes, and to the electe of God, bycauſe that the Image of his maieſtie & iuſtice doth ſhyne and is preſente in them, although they be continually men, and not Gods. And on the contrary: Yf I beleue the doctrine whiche I heare, bycauſe that Tertullian or Cyprian. Origene or Chriſoſtome, Irene or Ambroſe, Hierome or Auguſtine, Gregory or Iſidore, Luther or Eraſme, Eccius or Melancthon, Gratian or Peter Lombard, maſter of the ſentences, Iohn the Scotte or Thomas of Alquine, do preache and teach the ſame vntounto me: or els bycauſe that the Popes, and Cardinals, the Biſhops, and others, whom I eſteme riche, mighty and wiſe perſonages, of great vertue and holynes, do alowe and cōmend the ſame, or els bycauſe that the Emperors, kynges, princes, and Lordes, the Italians and Spaniardes, the Almaignes the Frēche, and other nations do beleue it: I am then no diſciple of Ieſus Chriſt in this doyng, but a diſciple of men.

Of the nature and vertue of true fayth, and vvhat difference there is betvvene it and opinion.

T. ACcordyng to this accompte there are mo diſciples of men, then of Ieſus Chriſte. For there are very fewe whiche hauehave not greater regarde to men, then to any thing els. D. Yet notwithſtandyng if it be ſo, their fayth to ſay truth is no faith, but opinion, as it hath ben already declared. For ſeyng that it is not buylded vponupon the authoritie of God, and his worde, but onelyonly vponupon the oppinion whiche I hauehave of ſuch perſonages, it may be no fayth. For fayth may hauehave none other regard, obiect, ſubiect, nor foundation, but God in Ieſus Chriſt, & his only truth. Yf it hauehave any other foundation, if it be builded vponupon men, and vponupon the opinion that men ſhall hauehave of them, it ſhal chaunge as men do, and as the opinion doth that men hauehave conceiued. It ſhall fall when they fall, it ſhall be inconſtant, variable and ſubiect to chaunge, euen as they are. For ſhe ſhal not be builded vponupon Math. xxii i. Pet. ii Epheſ. ii i. Cor. iii Math. xvithe liuely ſtone, whiche is Ieſus Chriſt, and vponupon the ſure foundacion of the Prophets and Apoſtles, vponupon the which, the true Church muſt be builded, if it will endure agaynſt the gates of hel, and the whole helliſh power, otherwiſe how may it be a faith? For theſe vices are as contrarie to fayth, as is the fire to the water. Wherfore, ſuch as dwel vponupon mē in this ſorte, and do not diſcerne of thynges, nor proue the ſpirites whether they be of God or no, according to the Coū cell gyuen by Saint Iohn: What aſſurance may they hauehave Iohn. iiiiin their conſciences? Whyleſt they are at reſt, and that they be not aſſayled by temptacions, nor wakened by the iudgement of God, and that they do haunt among ſuch as are of the ſame religion, that they are of, it ſemeth vntounto them, that their faith is very ſure & ſtrong: but when they ſhal find thē ſelues aſſailed with diuers temptacions, & compaſſed roūde with great daūgers, & that God ſhal a litle aſtoone their cō ſciences with his iudgemēt, they ſhall then finde what ſtay they hauehave of mē, & that there is no perfit aſſuraūce, nor true quietnes of cōſcience, but in the true faith, engendred in the hartes of mē, by the very perſuaſion of the word & ſpirite of God. And if it ſhould happē yt they ſhould be cōuerſāt amōg men of an other Religion, what would they then do? T. Yf they ſhould be in Turckie, they would as well receyue the lawes of Mahomet, & refuſe the Chriſtian Religion, as the Turckes do: for they hauehave euen the ſame reaſons and argumentes to do it, as otherwiſe they hauehave to accepte or refuſe that, whiche they hauehave already receiued or diſalowed. They would euē do the lyke, if that they were among the Iewes, or any other nation, whiche ſhould hold any other religion, then the Chriſtian. D. It is not to be doubted.

Of the honor that is devve, to good and true teachers in the Churche, and of the meane that vve ought to kepe, to the ende that vve do gyue neither to much, ne yet to little credite to men: & hovv perillous a thing it is, to truſt to much to a mans ovvne iudgemente.

T. IF the matter be as thou ſayeſt, to what purpoſe do the good doctors ſerue, which hauehave receiued ſo many excellent giftes of God, for the edifying of his Churche? D. I ſay not theſe thynges to deſpiſe or condempne them: for we ſhould be to much vnkynde towarde them, if we ſhould condempne or deſpiſe them, conſiderynge they hauehave taken ſo greate payne to make the holy Scriptures more playne and eaſie vntounto vsus, and that by their laboure wee hauehave had greate commoditie. They hauehave ſweat, to delyuer vsus from a greate deale of payne and trauayle, and hauehave greatlye holpen vsus with their labour, and made the way more plaine for vsus. Alſo we ſhould be to outragious againſt God, if that we ſhould deſpiſe them, blaſphemyng the giftes of hys holy ſpirite whiche he hath beſtowed among them. Wherefore, thincke not that I do alow the iudgement of certaine raſhe men, or fauoure a nomber of puffed prowde ſpirites, who without any regarde condempne all men, eſteemyng none but them ſelues. Bycauſe they hauehave knowē that the worlde hath bene ſeduced by gyuyng to much credite to the iudgementes of men, and hauehave bene to lyght of credite, not enquiryng of the truth, by the witnes of the holy Scriptures, they hauehave gone ſo farre on the other ſyde, that they are no leſſe to be blamed, then thoſe whome they do condemne. For if it bee perillous to credite to muche the iudgementes of men, ſo is it alſo daungerous, if that we gyue not that credite that we ought to do, to the iudgementes of thoſe, which gouerne them ſelues accordyng to the worde of God. T. It is a very hard matter to kepe meaſure and meane, and ſo to do thinckyng to auoyde the one ſorte, of extremitie and perill, that wee fall not more daungerouſly into the other. For if I gyue no credite to the iudgemente of others, but will dwell wholly vponupon myne owne, and vponupon my oppinion, wherin am I more worthy of prayſe, then they whō I do condempne? Am not I a man as they are? D. There is no doubt but if I do folow onelyonly mine owne iudgement, & fantaſie, I folow the iudgement of men, for I am no God, any more then other men are. If the others be to be blamed, bycauſe of their ouer muche lightnes, negligēce, rayſh belife, & follie, ſo ſhould I alſo feare that I be not ſubiecte to greater blame through follie, pride, ſelfe will & falſe perſuaſiō of my ſelfe. T. Here is no ſmal daūger: but before all other things we ought to feare, leaſt we ſtand to much in our owne con- & truſt to much to our owne iudgements & vnderſtanding, deſpiſing the iudgementes of others, & to be to much gyuen and wedded to our own willes. For this vice is meruellous daungerous, & is the chief fountain and cauſe of all hereſies and Sciſmes, whiche are the moſt daungerous peſtilences, that may happen into the Church. D. Therfore hauehave I ſayd theſe thinges to the ende that we mighte know how to folow that moderation, the which S. Auguſtine hath folowed without giuing more or leſſe vntounto men, then faith & Chriſtian charitie may endure, yelding alwayes to God, & to the canonicall Scriptures, that honor which we do owe vntounto thē, & taking good hede, that we gyue no more to Councels & to men, then to them, what apparēce or ſhew ſo euer they hauehave For they that come to Councels, are men. And in that they are men: they are chaungeable, ſubiecte to errors and vntruth. They do conclude accordynge as the ſpirite is, by whom they are gouerned. If they be led by the ſpirit of God they wyll conclude in the fauour of the truth: yf they be led by the ſpirite of error, as were the Prophetes of Achab agaynſte Miche, they will maynetayne and confirme lyes. i. King. xxii.And by theſe meanes they, that ſhal followe them, ſhall bee in very good caſe.

Of the difference that men ought to put betvvene the doctrine and vvritings of the Apoſtles and Prophets, and of thoſe that came after them, and the cauſe therof.

T. I Do confeſſe that thoſe which come to the Councels, are men, but a man may replye, that in a lawfull generall Councell, they are guided by the holy Ghoſt, and that he will not ſuffer them to erre. S. Paule and S. Iohn, Iame. i. Act. 3. 14 Gal. 1. 2.Dauid and Ely, Eſay and Moyſes, and all the Prophets and Apoſtles were men like vntounto others, ſubiecte to ye ſame infirmities that others were, and yet S. Paule doth ſo authoriſe his doctrine (as hath bene alreadye ſayd) that he condempneth the Aungels of heauen, if they doe gayne ſaye it. Wherfore they conclude, that euen ſo as the Prophets and Apoſtles were men; and yet notwithſtanding all their writinges are without errour, euen ſo fareth it with the fathers in all their determinations and Councels. D. They conclude veri euel, and ſpeak wholy againſt the ſentence of S. Auguſtin, who is as good a chriſtiā as any one. For they attribute as much to the bokes & ordinances of men, as to the Canonicall bookes: whereupon we oughte to conſider, that albeit the Prophets and Apoſtles were men, yet notwithſtanding there is greate difference betwene them and thoſe that came after them. For we are certayne that they ſpake by the ſpirit of God, and that God hath not ſuffered any errour to be mingled in their writinges, becauſe that he woulde they ſhoulde be geuen and left to vsus for moſt certayne rules, wherby to examine all other doctrines. There is yet an other matter beſyde this, which is well worthye to be noted: To wit, that if any of thoſe by whom it hath pleaſed God to be ſerued in this woorke, hauehave chaunced to committe any faulte in their office, the ſpirite of God hath not hidden it, but hath manifeſtly declared it, to the end ye men ſhoulde not ſo be moued with the authoritie of ſuche perſonages, that they ſhoulde followe lies in the ſteed of ye truth, and vice in the ſteede of vertue. We hauehave an euident example hereof in Nathan the Prophet, who without hauing demaunded i. Sam. 7at the mouth of the Lord, ſayd of his owne onelyonly authoritie, and proper councell to Dauid, that he ſhoulde builde the Lordes houſe and temple, wherfore he was rebuked and corrected immediatly: the next nyght following by the Lorde, who commaunded him to declare the contrarye to Dauid. We may alſo alledge ye example of the Prophet which was ſent into Beth-el and was kylled by the Lyon: i. kings. 17 Iob in Iere. xx i. Kings. xix Ionas. 2 Gal. 2and that of Iob, and of Ieremie who curſed the day of their byrth: and alſo that of Hely and of Ionas, & ſo many faults of S. Peter and eſpecially that for the whiche S. Paule reproued him. I leaue vntouched a number of others: ſuch lyke. Now it ſtandeth not ſo at this preſent with vsus, ne yet with the auncient doctors that were before vsus. For ſeing that God woulde that thys rule ſhoulde be obſerued in hys church, it coulde not otherwiſe be, but yt it muſt be appoynted by a number of bookes certayne, or ells there woulde neuer hauehave beene any ende. Seing then that the Lorde hath once appoynted and allowed thys rule, we maye compare vntounto it neyther booke nor Councell, what ſo euer they bee. For if ſince the time of the Apoſtles there hath neuer beene man, of what holines or knowledge ſo euer he were, that hath ſo perfectelye and wel written and taughte, as the Prophettes and Apoſtles didde without faylinge in anye one thinge▪ wee maye not thincke that it is otherwiſe in their Councelles and Sinodall ſtatutes, then it is in their bookes. For thoſe that write ſuch bookes, be the very ſelf and ſame men by whom the Councells are celebrated and holden, vntounto whom their aduiſes and opinions are ſpoken, euen as they are couched in their bookes. Wherefore they may as wel erre in the one, as in the other: we muſt alſo knowe that the moſt holy and perfecte men in deede hauehave not all the giftes of God, neyther continuallye nor in all ages, ne yet in all things, no, not thoſe giftes in dede which are geuen vntounto them: but that GOD doth reueale manye thynges to others, and at other tymes.

VVhat rule S. Auguſtine geueth concerning Councells and the vvritinges of the auncient Fathers.

T. SEing it is ſo, it is very nedeful that we hauehave ſome certayne rule wherwith to guide vsus in theſe matters. D. I doe thinke that we can not doe better, nor follow a better rule, when any of theſe things come in queſtion, then to followe ye maner of proceding that S. Auguſtine did vſe with Maximine, Biſhop of the Arrians, which would arme himſelf with the Councell of Arimine, againſte the concluſion that was made and confyrmed by ye holy fathers, touching the diuinitie of our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt, in the Councell of Nice, by the authoritie of the truth, as it is ſayd, and hy the truth of authoritie. Tom. 6. Lib. 3. I may not now, ſayeth he, alledge the Councell of Nice, nor thou the Councel of Arimine, as for a preiudice, neyther am I bounde to the authorite of the one, nor thou to the authoritie of the other. Let vsus debate the one matter with the other, the one cauſe with the other, the one reaſon with the other, by the authoritye of the Scriptures, not by proper and particular witneſſe of eueryevery man, but by indifferent to vsus both. Which thing he hath alſo written in other places as concerning To Paul, Epiſt. 112 To Hic. 29 Epiſtthe authoritie of the Canonicall bookes, & agreeth very well with this. I will not, ſaith he, that thou embrace myne authoritie, to the end thou ſhouldeſt thinke it neceſſarie to beleue any thing, becauſe that I hauehave ſpokē it: but that thou beleue the Canonicall Scriptures. And againe, I confeſſe to thy charitie, that I hauehave learned to beare that honour and reuerence to the onelyonly bookes of the Scriptures which are called Canonicall, that I doe beleue aſſuredlye that no one of the authors of them hath in any one iote of his writinges erred. And i…diatlye after he ſayth: But I read y• others in ſuch … what excellencie of holines and doctrine ſo euer be …, I thinke not that which they ſaye to bee true becauſe that they were of that opinion, but becauſe that I am perſwaded that that whiche they ſpeake, is agreeing to the truth, eyther by the Canonicall authors, or els by apparaunt reaſon. This is his manner of writing to Saint Hierome. And agayne, thou ſeeſt here howe S. Auguſtine ſubmitteth the writings of the auncients, and the Coūcels, to the worde of God, and to the determinations therof, conteyned in the holy Scriptures, and maketh it iudge aboue all. T. I do finde the aduiſe of S. Auguſtine very good: but me thincketh there are other things to be conſidered in that conference and difference of the auncient Doctors and determinations of the lawfull Councels, whereof I woulde gladlye heare the reſolution. But becauſe that we hauehave entreated of manye good poyntes touchyng thys matter of Councells, it ſeemeth to me very good for this preſent hers to make an ende, to the end I may hauehave ſome little tyme to call to my remembraunce thoſe thinges, whereof we hauehave alreadye diſcourſed to that purpoſe, and becauſe I will not be to tedious vntounto thee. D. Feare not to demaunde of me: for there is nothing that I doe more willinglye. T. I know that wel, but I ſhould be to much diſcourteſe and rude, if I ſhoulde hauehave no regarde: nor ſpare thee more then thou wouldeſt ſpare thy ſelfe. Moreouer it is not ſuffii… ent for me to heare onelyonly as doe many ſcholers, whiche charge them ſelues with moe leſſons then their capacitie may endure, doing nothing but heare without profitting or learning of any thing. D. Thou haſte reaſon in that that thou ſayeſt.