The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 1 · Body of dialogue

The Christian Disputations · Dialogue 1 · Body of dialogue

¶ THE FIRST DIALOGVE which is called the Alchymee of Purgatorie.

The Speakers.

Hillarius.

Euſebius.

Theophilus.

Thomas.

HIllarius.

If mine eyes hauehave not deceiued mée, I thinke I ſaw you all thrée to day at the Sermon: wherefore I deſire to know your opinions how the ſame pleaſed you, and what you thinke of the Preacher.

Euſebius.

As far as I can iudge, I thinke that he is very ſkilfull and cloquent: for he hath ſpoken very learnedly and deepely of matters ſo obſcure and profounde.

Hillarius.

He could not ſpeake more profoundly: For he hath pearced euen vntounto y^• very centre of the earth: therfore I am the more abaſhed that he ſpake ſo cléerly of matters ſo obſcure, and of theſe darke places no man euer ſaw ought. For the Sunne neuer ſhineth there.

Theophilus.

As far as I could perceiue by him, I thinke that eyther he hath not bene in thoſe places of which he ſpake, or els if he were, it is long agoe. If the opinion of Iſydore be true, we ſhall hauehave very ſmall occaſion to giuegive credite to this ghoſtly father and to his preachinge.

Euſebius.

Hath Iſydore ben of an other opinion, then the reſt of the Chriſtian Doctors, touching this matter?

Theophilus.

There is none among the Chriſtians which doubteth that there is an hell, ſeeing that the holy Scripture rendereth ſo ſure and vndoubtefull a teſtimony with the which we ought to content our ſelues, not willyng to know any Hell & hell fire Mat 5 c. 25. Mat. 18. 18 Ma…c… 41. …ſ… …6 g …4. …ob. 10. d. 12Matt 5Matt 18:18further, then it hath reuealed it vntounto vsus. It ought to ſuffice vsus which Ieſus Chriſt witneſſeth vntounto vsus, that there is an hell of eternall & vnquenchable fire, where the worme dieth not, but wher ther is euerlaſting horrour, weeping & gua hing of teeth: we need not to enquire of the place: for I p. 23thinke ther is none which deſireth to go thether. And therfore we hauehave néede to praye vntounto GOD, that it woulde pleaſe him to giuegive vsus his grace to know his will, and to be able to accompliſh it thorow his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, to the ende we may auoide that hell fire and extreme darkeneſſe. We néede not much to ſtay to know in what place hell is, The bounds of hell The opiniōs of the Theologians Thom. in. 4. diſt 42 art. 2. D. 1. Richard. 4. diſt. 42. Plato in Phaedone. The opinion of Iſydore. Io. maio. 4. Sent diſt. 44. queſt. 1.whether it is in the centre of y^• earth, according to the common opinion of the Doctors & of Plato, which ſaith, y^• it is in the depth of the earth: or whether it is vnderunder the earth in the country of the Antipodes, according to the opinion of Iſydore, who ſayth that after the day of iudgement, the Sunne and the Moone ſhall kéepe themſelues ſo ſtedfaſte in heauen that they ſhall no more tourne round about the earth, but giuegive their lyght and brightneſſe, onelyonly in that part of the world in y^• which we dwell, and that the damned ſhalbe all ſent away vnderunder the earth, into thoſe horrible darkeneſſe, and into thoſe places, in the which at this day, ſome men doe thinke, that the Antipodes doe dwell.

Hillarius.

If it were ſo that the Sunne and the Moone doth nowe ſhine there, wée maye thinke, that ſome one of the countrye of the Antipodes is come from thence, who hath declared and deſcribed to our Preacher the ſcituacion of hell, of Lymbo patrum, and of Purgatory, with al their confines in ſuch ſort and manner as he hath expounded them vntounto vsus.

Thomas.

You may ſaye what you will, and I will beléeue what pleaſeth mée, but I cannot thinke that he was euer there, or that hée hath euer heard any one ſpeake that came from thence, & hath ſo well viſited all the places theroff. For neuer in my lyfe I hearde it better deuiſed. There is neyther hall, chamber nor cloſet, cole-panne, kitchin, nor ſeller, chimney nor pot-hangers, great caudron nor lyttle caudron, chaynes nor fleſh-hookes and other inſernall vtenſills, but that he hath deſcribed and ſet them foorth ſo lyuely, as mée thinketh I ſée the thinges before mine eyes in ſuch ſort, that yet I am afrayde when I thinke on them. The Cyrographers and Notaryes are very dilygent and curious for to expreſſe & declare in their inſtruments and writings the ſituacion & lymtis of houſes and poſſeſſions of which they make writings off: But I hauehave not found any ſo ſkilfull and of ſuch habilitie who can bound and lymitte ſo perfectly the landes, as our preacher to day hath lymitted and bounded out hell, Limbus patrum and Purgatory. As far as I can perceiue he knoweth in what clymate they are: how many degrées, miles The diſcription of helland places the one is from the other: of what ſide they are all ſcituated and placed, whether they bée on the Caſt, Weſt, North or South.

Hillarius.

You take not the matter am…ſe. But you muſt not be abaſhed, if he and ſuch as he is, doe take ſo great paynes to bound and lymitte ſo perfectly thoſe places, and chiefely Purgatorie: For they Purgatory and lus reuenueshauehave no better poſſeſſion then this, which yéeldeth vntounto them more profite and gaine, nor of which they receiue and gather vp more rents and reuenues. There is no realme, Lordſhip, lande nor heritage which bringeth more profite to their Lords & owners, then Purgatory doth bring vntounto them. Wherefore it is no maruayle if they doe feare ſo much to looſe it and that their bounds and lymits ſhoulde be tranſported or changed any other where. Ptolomus and many other wiſe and excellent Geographers are eſtéemed to be very well learned, aſwell among the Greekes as the Latines. But I thinke that among all thoſe, there is not one, which in his Geography hath at any time ſo wel painted and deſcribed the earth with all the parts thereoff, countryes and regions as this our Doctor hath deſcribed and drawen out before our eyes, theſe low parts and inſeruall regions.

Thomas.

By that we may know, or at the leaſt preſume, that he ſpeaketh not onelyonly by heare ſay, but that he hath bene there in proper perſon, or …ls hath had ſome expert teacher in that Geography. For I doe ſée that the beſt Geographers and the moſt cumming Coſmographers doe faile oftentimes in the deſcription of the earth, and of many countryes and regions which are moſt familier to vsus, and of which they may hauehave greateſt and moſt certeyne experience.

p. 24Hillarius.

Without ſéeking any further, we may try it in the French Cardes or Maps. There is not almoſt a country better knowne then Fraunce, neuertheleſſe we ſée oftentimes great errours in thoſe Cardes in the which it is deſcribed. Wherefore wée may well thincke that it maye ſo chaunce in other tables, mappes, and cardes conteminge the deſcription of heauen and earth and of the regions and countryes vnknowne.

Thomas.

I doubt not at all, but that this Monke hath the The inferuall mappesſpirite for to compoſe and make a table and Mappe of theſe low countryes, better then the paynters hauehave paynted them out in the temples, or the Printers in the Shepheards Calēders. And therfore I deſire very much to ſpeke with him. For I hauehave taken in hande a iourney in the which he may helpe mée. For I hope that eyther he will ſhewe mee ſome good way, or els ſatiſfie mée in ſuch ſorte that peraduenture I ſhall ſaue the iourney and charges.

Hillarius.

What voyage is that which you hauehave taken vppon you? will you goe into Sicily?

Thomas.

What to doe in Sicily?

Hillarius.

To deſcend into hell: For I cannot vnderſtand The deſcending into hell in Sicily.any other thing by your talke, foraſmuch as you enquire after that Monke to accompliſh and ende your voyage. I thinke you will hauehave him for your guyde, to conduct you in that daungerous voyage, euen as Circe …uyded Vlyſſes Homer iodſſ. 1. &. 11. Virg. Aeneld. 6. Ouid Meta. li. 14.to bring him to the ſpeach of Elpenor: and Sybilla Aeneas to conduct and bring him vntounto the ſpeache of his father Anchiſes.

Thomas.

I thinke you are eyther a Prophet or a Diuine: you hauehave hitte the na…e on the hea…e, you hauehave not erred a whit from the matter. …ut to what purpoſe ſpeake you vntounto mée of Sicily? Is there any hauen, or any entrye, place, or denne, to deſcende into thoſe infernall and obſcure, horrible and moſt darkeſome countryes.

Hillarius.

What meane you to make all this circumſtāce & queſtionings? you make it ſo ſtrange as though you had neuer heard it ſpoken off before. Ther is nothing more The Poeticall diuinitie.common in the Poeticall Theologie.

Thomas.

You alleage vntounto mee a goodly diuinitie. I hauehave nothing to doe with the Poets, nor with their fables and faynings. Is it not well knowne, that they be inuented of pleaſure, and there is no truth in them, but that they are moſt euident lyes.

Hillarius.

If you ſo lyttle eſteeme the teſtimonye of the Poets, I thinke you will not deſpiſe altogether the The common vvitneſſe.vulgar & common opinion which hath continued and endured ſo long time, and moreouer doth confirme it.

Thomas.

You bring mée into a faire land, and alleage vntounto mée a teſtimony worthy of credite, for confirmation of the other, to ſet mée ouer vntounto the common people: there is nothing more vnconſtant, more fooliſh, more mutable, nor more ready to beléeue all lyes, fables and follyes?

Hillarius.

I thinke y^• yet at the leaſt wiſe you wil not reiect the teſtimony of that holy man Odillo, Abbot of the Monks Odilus Abbot of Cluny.of Cluny, and of many orher Monkes very deuout, which hauehave followed him.

Thomas.

It may be that when I ſhall heare his opinion, eyther I will allow it or diſallow it. What ſayth hée?

Hillarius.

Peter of Amiens hath written that in the time of Pope Iohn the viij. About a thouſande Durant. ie Rat. dan o…fi. lib. 7. Rub. de offi. …or. Polid. Virg. de inuent. reli. lib. 6. c. 9. Aetna called Gibello mount in …icily.yeares after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, Odillo was in Sicily, and bicauſe that he heard oftentimes the noyſe, cryes and bewaylings which were made continually, about that burning hill Aetna, called of the Italians at this day Gibello monte, did thinke it came from the Diuells lamenting that the ſoules of the faythfull deceaſed were deliuered from torments through the maſſes, vigiles, prayers, ſacrifices and offrings of the Chriſtians. And therfore he incontinent declared the ſame to his Monkes, and they all decréed together, that after they had offered their offerings the firſt day of Nouember, and celebrated the feaſte The feaſt of the dead. Supple. Chron. lib. 2. Feralia Satraof Saints in the honour of all Saints, they would in lyke manner the next day beeing holyday make prayers and …riſons for the ſoules of all the faythfull deceaſed. Afterwarde in ſucceſſion of time others receiued and allowed p. 25that manner of doing, as good and holy.

Thomas.

What Parentali….reaſon had they to imagine that thoſe cryes & mourninges came of the lamentations that the Diuels made?

Hillarius.

I cannot vnderſtand that it hath had any other reaſon or foundation then the Poets, and the common people, to thincke that there was a place there to deſcende into Hell in Sicile.hell, and the place in which the ſoules of the wicked were tormented for their ſinnes, bicauſe that in that ſame mountaine there is a perpetuall fire which alwaies burneth, and Plini. li. 3. c. 2hath done ſo of long time. Wherefore they hauehave thought that y^• damned were kept in thoſe great burning goulfes. By this ſame reaſon was Odillo and his Monkes moued, and were the Authours, that the Chriſtians gaue Anniuerſaries.themſelues to celebrate feaſtes, and make ſacrifiees for the dead in the month of Nouember, euen as the heathen Romaines did commonly vſe it in the month of February, by y^• Quid. Faſt. li. 2 Liui. li. 1. dec. 1.inſtitution & appointmēt of Numa Pompilius y^• ſecond king of the Romaines. Al the reaſon that moued Odillo procéeded but of ignoraunce, for y^• he vnderſtood not the cauſe whereof thoſe gronings, noiſe and feareful cryes which he hearde in Sicily about that mountaine did ariſe. But imagined that it was the Diuels which haled and fore themſelues by the haire, ſorrowing with great deſpite that they ſawe theſoules goe out of paines and tormentes. But his imagination hath brought no hurt to his couent, nor to all the other Monkes and Prieſtes. For that ſanie day, is the beſt faire that they hauehave all the yeare, and a time in which they make harueſt and vintage altogether, with not taking ouermuch paines. If the ſoules of the deceaſed hauehave as much gaine as they, they, may bée very ioyfull of the feaſt.

Thomas.

But I woulde gladly knowe, from whence thoſe cryes and mourninges did procéede, whether they came Lu…r. li. 1. Hic Aetnea minantur. Murmura flam… marum rurſum ſe colligere iras.from the Diuels, or from the ſoules of the dampned, or from thoſe which are kept in Purgatory, or of ſome other naturall cauſe.

Hillarius.

The cauſe is eaſie to bée knowne of him who wyll vnderſtande what is the ſituation and nature of the place. For of the one ſide is the … …u…ibus crap…es terum vt vis cuomatignes. Ad caelum qu… ferant flamai ſulgur… rurſum Clau. de rapt. proſerpi. li. 1. Sil. li. 14. Diodo. li. 6. &. 16 Polib. li. 1 …elli puni… S…rabo. li. 6roaringe of the Sea, which maketh an horrible noiſe, on the other ſide the greate goulfes of fire that ariſe and come out of the mounteyne. Wherefore when the vehement▪windes doe blowe, and enter violently into the holes and caues that are▪there, and mingle themſelues wyth thoſe vaines of brimſtone kindled with that impetous fire, wée muſt not meruaile when all thoſe thinges mixt and confuſed together, doe méete, if there are fearefull cryinges, and ſuch which the Poet hath deſcribed, ſaying.

Lo… here the hill that Aetna hight, moſt horrible to beholdeOuid Meta. li. 15 The diſcription of the hill Aetna.

Thundring out and making cries, moſt terrible to be tolde.

Which many times doth caſt frō it, of clowds that are ful darke,

And alſo vvhirle vvinds that are great, vvith ſmoke that is ful black.

And burning ſparkes of fire did fly, and flames that are moſt great

Which from the fire roſe ſodeinly, and toucht the heauenly ſeat.

Which oftentimes doth vomit out, the hovvels and the guts

Of rockes and ſtones that are full hard, which in that hil ther lu…kes.

Thomas.

I doe then much doubte, if it bée euen ſo as you ſaye, but that the good Odillo was deceyued, and that hée, and all his Monkes hauehave greatly dreamed.The poeticall fable of Enceladus and of the other Gyrantes. Vir. an…d. li 3 Fama eſt E… ladi ſ…muſtum flumine corpus Vigeri mole ha…, ingentemque inſuper Aetnam impoſitam r…ptis flammam ex… pirare camini…. Et ſeſſum quoti. …s mutat l…us intremere omnē. Murmure Trinacriam, & … …

Hillarius.

They hauehave at the leaſt ſo much dreamed and thoſe which hauehave beléeued their dreames, as they who ſtayinge themſelues vppon the fables of Poets, hauehave thought that Enſeladus, Briarnis and the other Gyauntes, were buried vnderunder that great and burning hil of Aetna, after that Iupiter deſtroyed them with lightning and ouerthrewe them vppon the mounteines that they had made for to aſcend into heauen, when they warred agaynſt him. For euen as they imagined that thoſe fearefull and terrible Gyauntes were encloſed vnderunder that mounteyne, who remouinge themſelues from the one ſide to the other, dyd caſt and throwe foorth thoſe great and daungerous …tes, flaminge fyers, whoorlewindes and ſmoked: p. 26Thoſe héere doe put the Dyuels in ſlée…e of the Gyants: And doe attribute vntounto them that which the mounteyne doth naturallye. So as other dreamers and fo…es hauehave done of the mounteine of Iſlande and Norwaye: of The mountains of Iſland and Norvvay.which they that hauehave written of thoſe Regyons & Countryes, doe wytneſſe that they are almoſt like vntounto that hyll Aetna, and ſpecially about the borders of Norwaye. For they ſay that there is there a mounteyne commonly called Hechelbergo enuironed with the Sea, the moſt horrible Hechelbergo.and fearefull that is in the worlde. And for to make the tale better and the thing more meruaylous, they ſaye alſo, that there are hearde the cryinges, wéepinges and lamentations of the ſoules which goe into Hell, inſomuche as thoſe horrible cryes and noyſe are ſpreade and heard The crying of the damned.a myle rounde aboute. They adde moreouer that there are very great and meruaylous blacke Rauens & Crowes Rauens and hel crovves.which flye rounde about it makinge alſo horrible cryes, in ſuch ſort that they terrefie eueryevery man that none bareth to approche nighe vntounto that mounteine. Afterwards; Fountaines of exceſsiue coldeneſſe and heate.ther ariſeth out of the ſame two fountaines, whereof the one is of ſuch vehement and exceſſiue coldeneſſe, and the other of ſuch heate, that both of them are intollerable, and there is no Element howe colde or hotte ſoeuer it bée, but that they ſurmounte it, both in heate and coldeneſſe. And which is more in that ſame Countrey, towardes the South partes, as men ſaye, there is a place called Nadhegrin, in which the Dyuels of that Nadhegrin. viſible d…uels.place doe appeare vntounto men, whome they ſée before their eyes hauing bodies of the ayre.

Thomas.

Odillo might hauehave had better occaſion to hauehave ſituated Hell and Purgatory there, then in the hyll Aetna.

Hillarius.

It woulde hauehave had better, appearaunce, if thoſe thinges were true. But if wée ſhoulde ſtaye our ſelues vppon ſuch dreames and lyes, wée myght alſo forge an other Hell and Purgatory in Scotland, in which The do…eful hil in Scotland.men ſay that there is a hill full of ſorrow & very fearfull, by reaſon of the cryes of thoſe that do wéepe and lament there. And in Thuringia there is a hill in which ther are heard Thuringia.moſt horrible noiſe & cryes: And y^• hath not onelyonly the name to be frequēted with Faunes & Satyres which are a kinde of Diuels, which many waies hauehave ſeduced y^• Panims. But alſo ſome do affirme y^• they hauehave ſéene the ſame by experience. And ſome writers & Authours accōpted for men worthy of credite, hauehave written it.

Thomas.

There ſhould bée then many Helles and Purgatories by that accompt. But bicauſe I feare very much, that there are great follies and lyes in thoſe hiſtories, I thincke that it ſhoulde bée moſt ſure and expedient for mée, to take that way which I firſt purpoſed, then to take the way either in Sicily or in any of thoſe places that you hauehave named vntounto mée. For the way is not much frequented nor knowne as that is which I hauehave taken vppon mée, except you hauehave touched the one of the countries, whether I would goe.

Hillarius.

Whether hauehave you then enterpriſed to goe?

Thomas.

I doe make mine accompt, to goe ſtraight into Scotland or into Ireland.

Hillarius.

Is there any way to deſcend into theſe infernall Regions and countries?

Thomas.

HaueHave you euer heard ſpoken of the voyage and Caues of Saint Patricke? doe you not remember the bookes that we had at The voyage of ſainct Patrickes purgatory.ſchoole when wée were little children?

Hillarius.

You make me now remember the ſaying of my Graundfather. Were we not happy in thoſe daies, that we had ſuch bookes in our handes, in ſtéed of ſome good Authour, and of the Bible and holy Scriptures? If wée conſider well the vnhappineſſe and miſery of that time and barberouſneſſe and ignoraunce both of God and all good diſcipline which then poſſeſſed all the worlde, and compare it with the mercy which GOD at this preſente doth vntounto vsus, wée hauehave good occaſion to render vntounto him thanckes. Dooe you thincke that that booke, wherein is deſcribed the voyage of Sainct Patricke and ſuch other lyke, ful of fables, moſt ſottiſhe and brutiſh, were méete to giuegive any good doctrine vntounto children, and that the newe teſtament had not bene a p. 27better for them to hauehave in their handes? Truely wée are in a good way, foraſmuch as wée bée already come vntounto Saincte Patricke.

Thomas.

You knowe that thys caue is in Ireland.

Hillatius.

Some place it in Ireland, and others in Scotland: It is all one to mee whereſoeuer it bée, for I will make no voyage thether.

Thomas.

It is all one alſo to mée. For thoſe countries are not farre Scotland and Ireland. Eraſmu…n …hiliad. va… in Commentae. ſuper pomp. mel.diſtant the one from the other: It is inough for mée, ſo that I may finde it. For that cauſe I hauehave determined to goe thether out of hand. But ſince I heard our Ghoſtly Father, I will not goe before I hauehave firſt ſpoken wyth him: and after I wyll rule my ſelfe according to the counſaile that he will giuegive mee.

Hillarius.

You doe either mocke or dreame?

Thomas.

That is no countrey, whereof wée ſhould mocke, foraſmuch as all thoſe that hauehave bene there hauehave loſt their laughing and all reioyſing.

Hillarius.

It is then lyke vntounto the denne of Throphonius, which is in the country of Lebadia, of which the auncient To looſe the laughter.writers hauehave written almoſt all after the ſame ſort, as our dreamers hauehave done, of Sainct Patrickes hole or caue: and doubt not, but y^• the one fable hath engendred y^• other. Neuertheleſſe Throphonius denne. Lebadia philoſ…r. …as. chil. 1. ce…t. 7.I doe not yet thincke that you ſpeake in earneſt.

Thomas.

You thinke that I am ſuch a mocker as you are.

Hillarius.

If you bée not a mocker, you are then a dreamer.

Thomas.

I ſléepe not whereby I ſhould dreame.

Hillarius.

No more alſo did our ghoſtly Preacher ſléepe to day: I neuer in all my life heard ſuch an olde dreamer dreame and take on in ſuch ſort. I beléeue no other thing but that he hath ſtudyed in the ſchoole of ſome olde doting witch full of lyings, from which hee brought this diuinitie.

Euſebius.

Are you not aſhamed ſo to mock & ſpeake againſt ſuch a vertuous and learned man as he is.

Hillarius.

I know not what knowledge and learning he may hauehave: But this I may ſurely ſay, that I neuer heard any thing of him, whereby I might knowe that there is either knowledge or wiſdome in him. If he had ſtudyed in humaino letters, I ſhould hauehave thought that he had read that hée preached either in the Poetries or verſes of Homere or Virgil, or of Homer. odiſsi. …. Virg. anaed. 6. plutar in comment. de dam. Socra.ſome other Poets, as wel Greeke as Latine: or in Plutarke. For I am ſure y^• in thoſe Theologies a man ſhal finde that matter altogether entreated off almoſt after that ſort as he hath declared vntounto vsus, and chiefly in Plutarke who declareth Timarchus.moſt meruailous thinges, that Timarchus hath ſéene in the denne of Trophonius, which differ but a little from thoſe which we hauehave heard of our Ghoſtly father. But I greatly feare that he neuer profited ſo much in Greeke neither in Latine, that he could euer hauehave read thoſe authours, nor that he coulde hauehave dnderſtoode them, if hée ſhoulde hauehave read them. But for to ſpeake as I thincke, I rather The Shepheards Callender. Dantes.beléeue that he hath read it either in the Sepheardes Callender, or in Dantes. What age is hée off?

Thomas.

Wherefore doe you demaund his age?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that if hée had lyued in the time of Alceſtis and Proteſilaus, either in the time of Hercules and Theſeus, or in the time of Vliſſes and Aeneas, whom the Poets doe witneſſe & affirme to hauehave bene in hell, and that they hauehave viſited all thoſe countries and chambers, as well the Limbus patrum as Purgatory, and alſo thoſe goodly and pleaſaunt fieldes Eliſeas, wée might preſume and thincke that he hath ſpoken vntounto them, and hath learned of them that Theology. But hée muſt bée then at the leaſt more then a thouſande and nine hundreth yeares olde, and that hée muſt Iohn. 12. b. 9 A ſained fable vponupon the hiſtorie of Lazarus after the imitation of the poets.John 12bée twiſe ſo olde as Mathuſala.

Thomas.

HaueHave wée not Lazarus whome Ieſus Chriſt raiſed to lyfe who hath bene longe time after all thoſe, who could tell what there is? For thou canſt not ſaye that the ſame is a fable as the others are?

Hillarius.

Yet the Ghoſtly Father could not hauehave ſpoken vntounto him, except hée were at the leaſt more then fiftene hundreth yeares olde. I doe not denie his reſurrection, but I doe denie all thoſe lyings which are added vntounto the hiſtory of the Goſpell.

Thomas.

Could he not very well hauehave heard it of thoſe who through longe ſucceſſion hauehave learned and vnderſtanded it of thoſe who hauehave hearde it of p. 28Lazarus.

Hillarius.

Héere are a great many of héereſaies, I would gladly knowe who was the firſt, vntounto whom Lazarus declared it, and whether Lazarus hath ſpoken more amply then Ieſus Chriſt and all his Prophets and Apoſtles. Doe wée not plainely ſée howe wée doe ieſte with God, tourning his woorkes and miracles into fables, and Poets inuentions? Could the enemies of our Religion do more? Doe not theſe olde dreamers who hauehave dreamed and inuented out ſuch fables, make of Lazarus an other Alceſtis, Theſeus, Vliſſes or Aeneas who are come from hell, for to declare what is done there? To what other end doo all th…ſ… inuentions and fabulous narrations of olde fooles ſerue. But for to call into doubt Gods truth, and for to giuegive occaſion vntounto the mockers and contemners of God and of his woord, to laugh and make a ſcoffe of the Chriſtian Religion, and the Doctrine of the Goſpell. As Pithagoras, Lucrecia, Lucian and many others hauehave ſcoffed at the Ouid Me…. 15fables and inuentions of the Poets, touching their Hell, and of the vaine credulitie and great fooliſhneſſe of the ignorant people, who gaue credit vntounto them. As we hauehave done to the dreames of thoſe Caphards and …oltes, who would make ſo many partes of the infernall Regions, as the Coſmographers hauehave made of the earth. For as they hauehave deuyded The diuiſion of the inſernal Coſmographie.it into Aſia, Africa and Europa: Euen ſo hauehave thoſe deuided the infernal habitations into the Limbus patrum, Purgatory, & the hell of the dampned. And hauehave made all thoſe countryes inhabited, and ſo full of people that there is not one little corner nor angle, but that all is full, chiefly in purgatory, if we will beléeue our Prieſtes and Monkes. For the ſoules goe thether dayly by thouſandes.

Theophilus.

Our Lord Ieſus Chriſt raiſed not Lazarus, nor the others, whom he hath called from death to lyfe, for to holde & kéepe men by ſuch mockeryes, and for to make the worde of GOD lyke vntounto the woorke of Poetes. For his ſimplicitie, grauitie, nor yet hys maieſtye, can beare and ſuffer it. It ſufficeth hym to teache I… ſufficeth to knovv of Hell.vsus that there is a Hell, and wée ought to contente our ſelues therewith, without enquiringe where it is, nor what it is. For thoſe who through the iuſt iudgement of God ſhall bée there condemned, ſhall knowe it by prouing and féeling it to ſoone, and more then they would. The elect and bleſſed who through Ieſus Chriſt are delyuered, ſtudy not to know any further, then God hath reuealed vntounto them, that they hauehave felt it in their conſciences, when they hauehave offended, and that they hauehave bene grieued and preſſed downe with the féeling of their ſinnes.

Hillarius.

What will you ſay if this Ghoſtly father be one Tranſmigration of pythagora….of Pithagoras Diſciples, and of that ſame opinion? and that, the ſoule of eueryevery one of them, whom of late the Poets doe witneſſe to be deſcended into hel, were entered into his body, inſomuch that he was one of the very ſame?

Theophilus.

Wée might very well hauehave thought no leſſe, in hearing theſe dreames and lyes: But that wée knewe for certein that the opinion of Pithagoras is falſe (although that many among the Iewes are yet dronken therewith) & that the ſame which the Poets and Monkes hauehave inuented are nothing els but dreames and lyings. But yet although our Monke were ſome Theſeus, Vliſſes or Pithagoras, yet he might very well be deceiued. For ſithence that thoſe The …yre begun in purgatory.were in thoſe regions and countryes, the fire hath begun there to kindle, which hath burned all the wals of thoſe dyuerſe habitations and infernall chambers, forged, made and builded firſt by the Poets, and after wards by the Monkes and Prieſts, inſomuch that there remained neither Limbus patrum, or yet Purgatory, but Hell onelyonly, where that inextinguible fire is.

Thomas.

Y…u do ſpeake of the Limbus patrum and of Purgatory, as though ther were none, & that the ſame that hath bene preached vntounto vsus, was inuented of pleaſure, & that they were but fables. But doth not the Scripture make mention of it? do you thinke that ſo many good prechers which hauehave ben in times paſt would hauehave taught ſuch things, if they had not be… true?

Theophilus.

I hauehave heard many preach y^• the children y^• are borne dead, The children borne dead.& all thoſe which do die before t…ey be baptized, go ſtraight p. 29way vntounto the Lymbus patrum wherein they hauehave their chambers aparte, ſeperated from hell and Purgatory, and that they ſhall neuer enter into Paradiſe, but that they ſhall be depriued for euer from y^• ioyes theroff. Afterwards there was nothing that I heard ſo much commended in the ſermons, as the ſoules of Purgatory, vntounto whom alſo they giuegive chambers apart, and doe kéepe them as priſoners, in thoſe dungeons and priſons, vntill ſuch time as they hauehave The priſoners of P…rgatory.payd their raunſome.

Euſebius.

Doe you not ſtedfaſtly beléeue that the ſame is true, that ther is a Lymbe and a Purgatory?

Theophilus.

I would beléeue it without any doubt or contradiction, if I had read it aſwell in the olde Plato in gorgia & phaedone pl…t…r. in comde dam.and new teſtament, as in the bookes of Plato and of Plutarch and ſuch other which were of the ſame opinion.

Hillarius.

You ought yet to hauehave added amonge y^• Greeke Poets Orpheus, and Homere and Virgile among the Latine Poets: who hauehave ſo well deſcribed the Lymbe, hell, Purgatory, and the Popes paradiſe, that I thinke it is not poſſible to paynt and ſet them out better. And I cannot beléeue but that he was inſpired with the ſame ſpirite by The ſpirite, the Authour of pgatory.which they hauehave ſpoken who hauehave forged and inuented vntounto vsus thoſe Lymbes and Purgatoryes, and with which thoſe were inſpired, who did ſit in the Councells in which ſuch doctrine was allowed and confirmed: peraduenture he may finde ſome thing in the diſcription of Virgile which may ſeeme a lyttle to differ from the Popes Theologie: But notwithſtanding if the matters are wel examined and tryed, one cannot finde ſo great errours, that for thein hée may be iudged an hereticke in the Popes church, nor yet repugnance which is not more eaſie to agrée, then to make Scotus and Thomas Aquinas to agrée together: the Reals The Limbe vvher the children areand No…alls, the Sophiſtes and Doctors queſtionaries that be among them.

But for to proue it, giuegive eare what the Poet ſpeaketh …n ſuch ſort as I may ſpeake in our propre tongue: And for to begin in order I wil recite vnt… thee firſt the …eſcription of t…e …mbe… …here the children are, ſaying. Anone vvere voyces heard, and piteous cryes, and vvaylings ſh…ll Virg. A…t. 6Of ſoules of tender babes, and infants vveeping voyde of ſkill. That pleſure ſvveet of life did neuer taſt, but from their breſt Vntimely death them tooke, and Fortune grim hath down oppreſt.

He giueth vntounto the lyttle children their chamber apart, and appoynteth their dwelling at the entring in of hell, the which he deſcribeth more horrible and fearefull, ſaying.

Yet ſyts a vvorſe v…ithin, Than hell it ſelfe that ſinke-hole ſ…eepe,

Tvvo times as broad deſcēds, tvvo times as headlōg dovvn right deepHell. A…c. li 6

As heauen vpright is hye, if men thereto from thence might peepe.

Ouer and beſides theſe two places, he addeth yet two others, to wéete, Purgatory, and the fieldes E…ſeas, of which we will ſpeake off héereafter when his tourne commeth. Now al theſe which are lodged in thoſe diuers chambers, are handled eueryevery one of them according to their merites, and puniſhed after diuers ſorts. For the torments and paynes are giuen vntounto them eyther more grieu…ns and cruel, or els more tollerable & gentle, according to …uery ones mirites and deſertes. He putteth and placeth a large priſon, déepe, and darke, horrible and fearefull, in the moſt loweſt part of hell, from which thoſe ſhall neuer depart which once hauehave bene throwne therein. That priſon is the very hell it ſelfe, wherein the great and moſt grieuous ſinnes and offences are puniſhed, and that they are …ſanable and can by no meanes be purged, as theſe: ſacriledge, murder, tyranny, vyolences, erecrable whoredome, and ſuch other crimes, and chiefely thoſe of the Tyrants, Kings, Princes and Lords, whom Plato of which In Gorgia. the ſins of y^• princ…s and tyrants.proceeded this Philoſoph…e, lodged all in hell, if in ſléede to be good Princes and Paſtours, they hauehave bene tyrants, and the deuourers of the people.

Thomas.

I doe already héere perceiue a great agreeing with our Prieſts and Monkes. As concerning the Lymbes of the lyttle children, there is no more difference, but that Virgile putteth them all there, and our prieſts doe not lodge & put but thoſe which p. 30are dead without being baptized.

Hillarius.

He is not ſo rude and vngentle vntounto them. For he depriueth them not of all ioy and conſolation, as theſe our prieſts do the poore little children of the Chriſtians.

Thomas.

As touching hell I doe not much miſtyke the opinion of Plato. Firſt bicauſe it approcheth nigh to the veritie of the holy Scriptures, and that he declareth the iuſt iudgement of God vppon the tyrants. For it is good reaſon, ſith that there is none who may chaſtice & correct them in this world, and y^• they will not be in ſubiection neyther to God nor man, but do what they liſt, they ſhould hauehave double puniſhment in the other world: And that they ſhould vomitte and ſpew vp agayne their great cruelties, vyolences, and great enormities that they hauehave committed, bicauſe they feared neyther iuſtice nor puniſhment.

Theophilus.

Although that the witneſſe of the holy Scriptures is ſufficient for vsus, yet this ought further to moue vsus, & to confound the Infidlls when The ver…e of. the tru….we doe ſee the vertue of the truth to be ſo puiſſaunt and of ſuch force that it conſtrayneth Philoſophers, Poets and others, who hauehave bene ignorant of the knowledge of God, to confeſſe it and to beare witneſſe thereoff.

Thomas.

But me thinkes that our Prieſts and Monks do much differ from Plato & Virgile in y^• they do lodge y^• richeſt people and the great Princes and Lords ſooner in Purgatory then in Hel.

Hillarius.

Do you not know the cauſe? The riches of Purgatory.There came no profite vntounto Plato nor Virgile of the Purgatory, as commeth vntounto thoſe, & beléeue that although they had any profite, they were of a better conſcience, and that for their owne perticuler gayne they would not hauehave ſo ſeduced the poore ignorant people. For they do ſhew foorth by their writings, that they had a certeyne feare and knowledge of God, more then we may acknowledge in theſe our prieſtes. For they watche after the deade bodyes, as Plato and Virgle.the Rauens doe vppon carrion. And if they can méete with any dead man that hath his purſe well ſtuffed with money, wherewith hée is able to paye his raunſome, they will be ſure to make him tell who hath eaten the fat, they will put him in ſuch a place, from whence hee cannot come out before they hauehave taken ſome fat from him. For they are the tyrants of tyrants and the pillers of the great The tyrants of tyrants, and the pillers of the vſarers.pillers and Ʋſurers, whom they will not ſuffer to be broiled and tormented of the Diuells, but they will be their hangmen themſelues, take away that office from them to whom God hath giuen it.

Thomas.

They ſhalbe thē much tormēted by this accompt. For they ſhalbe cruelly handled in this world, and alſo in the other after their death, as they hauehave vexed b tormented y^• worlde whilſt they were alyue. And ſuffer them not notwithſtanding to fall into y^• hands of the Diuells. But I would gladly know what payne the other hauehave that hauehave committed ſmaller ſinnes.

Hillarius.

Plato and Virgile do lodge theſe in Purgatory, The Purgatory of Plato. In Gorgia. plutar. deſera. muni. vind. The ſynnes of the ſimple people. The ſynnes of princes.eſpecially the ſimple people & which hauehave not bene of great credite and authoritie. Wherefore they could not hauehave ſo great lycence to doe euill as the others. And if they had committed any fault, they had not the power ſo much to hurt the people as the others had. For the ſinnes of the Princes doe not hurt onelyonly themſelues: But as well by them as by their euill example they doe hurte and deſtroye all the worlde, where the ſimple people doe hurt but themſelues. And therefore they did thinke that their ſins were ſanable, and that they might be purged. For that cauſe, they condemned them not vntounto eternall dampuation: For The differences of ſynnes and the diuerſitie of the eſtates of thoſe that be deadthey thought y^• they had not committed euils inough for to be damned, & that ther was ſome remedie to be healed. Alſo they lodged them not at y^• firſt daſh in y^• fields of bliſeas, as the other great and vertuous men, who thorowe their vertue hauehave merited to be incontinently receiued into bleſſedneſſe and toye, or in the number of Gods.

Thomas.

Thoſe then which were good people, and which had not the power to doe ſo euill as the other, doe go into Purgatory againſt their wils. Neuertheles I am ſure that God will not held them excuſed therfore. For …e regardeth the heart, will and the affections, and not onelyonly the workes as the Philoſophers doe. Our prieſts differ not much from p. 31that opinion. For they Cannoniſe & lodge among the Saints Cnnonizacion of the Saints. Extra. de. cele. miſſ. 13. q. 2. Tempus.thoſe whome they doe iudge to hauehave bene moſt vertuous and holyeſt and the ſoules perfectly good, the which doe fly ſtraight into heauen, and hauehave no néede of our good déedes.

Hillarius.

That is to wéete the moſt greateſt Hypocrites, ſuperſtitious and Idolaters, & thoſe which hauehave done moſt for them, and that hauehave beſt nouriſhed and fed their fat bellyes.

Thomas.

They doe lodge in Purgatory thoſe who hauehave not accompliſhed héere their penaunce, which neuertheleſſe dyed confeſſed and repentaunt, or which do not carry deadly ſinne with them, but onelyonly veniall ſinnes, the which may be purged by the fire. For there is ſome remedy for thoſe.

Hillarius.

Such is their doctrine: But notwithſtanding when it commeth to triall, they neyther hauehave regarde to mortall nor yet veniall ſinnes, but ſooner to the riches or to the pouertie. It is all one with them whether the ſinnes be mortall or veniall, ſanable or inſanable, ſo that the dead hath wherewith to paye their drougs & medicines, & money for his raunſome, and letters of grace that they make for them by their buls and pardons. And as touching the poore, of whome they hauehave no profite, it is to them all one whether they go, be it into Paradiſe, Hell, or Purgatory. For they hauehave no care of the ſoules, but onelyonly of their purſes.

Thomas.

I hauehave yet one thing to demaunde of thée. Doe they ſay that there is fire in y^• Poets Purgatory as there is in y^• of the prieſts?

Hillarius.

It ſéemeth to mée that y^• Poets are a lyttle more reaſonable and more merciful then the prieſts and Monks. For they make not ſuch broyling and roſting of the poore ſoules.

Thomas.

How then?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that they hauehave aſſigned the payne a little eaſier and lyghter, according to eueryevery ones miſdéedes. For they condempne not all generally to y^• fire. But they do make thrée differences, The differences of ſynnes and the diuerlitie of the paynes.according to the greatneſſe and ſmalneſſe of ſinnes. Thoſe that hauehave ſinned moſt grieuouſly, and which are moſt full and ſtuffe… with ſinnes, and which are moſt earthly and moſt hardeſt to be purged, béeing ſo harde glewed and tyed to the ſoule, that it cannot be pluckt away, nor made cleane by no meanes but thorow the fire, are put and caſt into the hot furnace. For they muſt be melted all new agayne. The other that are not altogether ſo filthy & vile and that hauehave not their ſinnes ſo glewed in the ſoule that one cannot pul them away, are holden for a certeine time within the great goulfes of water, for to be there waſhed and made cleane. Ther are yet others y^• are leſſe faultie and guyltie, & which hauehave committed but certeyne ſmall ſins, that hath no neede of ſuch ſtrong purgation. And therefore they are hanged but a lyttle in the ayre for to winde them. For they néede but to hauehave a lytle winde for to blowe away the duſt that The diuerſitie of purgationscleaueth faſt to the ſoule, bicauſe of the coniunction that it hath with his body and his fleſhe.

Thomas.

As farre as I perceiue they doe with the ſoules in that Purgatorye as we doe with our apparayle, ſheetes, veſſell and mettall. For when we hauehave any clothes, or ſhéetes that are duſtie, or whereof we doubt the Moths and Wormes: we ſtretch them abroad and hang them vppon a pearch in the ayre for to winde and cleane them. And if ther be any ſpot or ſtaine that will not eaſely come out, we waſh them with water. And if that ſufficeth not, we ſope them, or put them in the bucke and bucke them, or els delyuer them to the ſcourers for to take out the ſteyne. Alſo if we hauehave mettall that is ruſty and canckred & which hath néede to be made cleane, we caſt it in the fire, which maketh it very cleane and conſumeth the droſſe and ruſt and other falſe mettall, and ſeperateth it from the pure and fine mettall.

Hillarius.

Thereby you maye knowe that the Poets hauehave had more witte and reaſon and better colour ſo to do then the Prieſtes. For they hauehave conſidered the nature of the ſinnes, and of the ſinners together, as a good Phiſition The Phiſicions of the ſoule.doth behold the completion of thoſe that are ſicke, for to giuegive vntounto eueryevery one a conuenient and ſit remedy for his diſeaſe.

For they hauehave regarde that mans bodye was made of the foure Elements, and that the completion and the affections p. 32of man doe follow the temperatneſſe of the body, and the nature of the elements, of which they were made. Foraſmuch then as the body is the houſe and habitacion of the ſoule, & that the ſoule hath bene holden within that earthly body as in a priſon, and darke dungeon, it is impoſſible, but that it is corrupted and defiled with the filthineſſe of that infectious body, as he which ſhall depart out of an infectious and ſtincking priſon. And therefore Plato and the other Philoſophers and Poets, which followed his opinion, hauehave thought, that the ſoules had néede of ſome purgation, after that they were ſeperated from the body, bicauſe that after their departing, it was impoſſible but that they ſhould carry with them and kéepe ſome filthineſſe of that corrupt fleſh, bicauſe of the coniunction, conuerſation and familiaritie, that they had together. Neuertheleſſe bicauſe that the bodyes are not all of one complexion, but according to the diſpoſition and temperateneſſe of the elements, of which they are made, ſome are more earthely and other ſome more heauenly, & according to the doctrine that they hauehave receiued, and the exerciſe that they hauehave had in vertue, ſome more vicious or vertuous then the others: Euen ſo hauehave they eſtéemed and thought that the ſoules did differ, according to the difference of the bodies from which they came out. They hauehave then conſidered that there are ſome ſinnes that are more thin, eaſie & lighter then others, holding more of the nature of the ayre, and of the winde, then of the earth. And therefore they muſt purge them by the element, which approcheth néereſt to their nature, and which ſéemeth for them the beſt remedie.

The others that are more heauy and wayghtie, as the water is more heauyer and wayghtyer then the ayre and winde, are waſhed in the water: For they doe holde moſt of the nature of the water. And therefore they put them in the bucke, wherein they driue, beat and waſh them very cleane.

Beſides thoſe there are other more wayghtyer and heauyer and altogether earthlye, whome neyther the wynd… nor the water can make cleane. And therfore y^• Soules that hauehave ben ſo defiled with y^• filthineſſe of their vile & wicked body, & ſo much giuen vntounto y^• pleaſures of y^• body, that they are almoſt degenerated & become earthly, are purged by the fire. For thei hauehave néede of a hotter & ſtronger elemēt for to purifie them, and for to conſume all filthe and droſſe, that there remayne nothing but the pure mettall of the celeſtiall nature. For contraries are healed by contraries. But leaſt you ſhould thinke that I am the authour and inuentour of that Philoſophie, and that I ſpeake theſe thinges of mine owne head and for my profite, behold how the Poet ſpeaketh, in whoſe verſes you ſhal finde compriſed in few words a great part of that Platonicall & Plutarchall Theologie, where he writeth of the ſoules ſeperated from the body after this manner.

MOreouer, when their end of lyfe, and lyght doth them forſake.Virg. Aene. 6. Purgatory.

Yet can they not their ſins, nor ſorrows all poore ſouls of ſhake.

Nor all contagions fleſhly, from them voydes, but muſt of neede

Much things cogēdred long, by wondrous means at laſt out ſpread.

Therefore they plagued bene, and for their former faults and ſins

Their ſundry paynes they bide, ſom hye in ayre doth hang on pins.

Some fleeting bene in flouds, & deepe in gulfs themſelues they tire

Till ſinnes away be waſht, or cleanſed cleere with purging fire.

Each one of vsus our penaunce heere abydes, then ſent we bee

To Paradiſe at laſt, we fevv fields of ioy doe ſee.The fields …liſeas.

Till compaſſe long of time, by perfect courſe hath purged quite,

Our former cloddred ſpots, and pure hath left our ghoſtly ſpirite

And ſences pure of ſoule, and ſimple ſparkes of heauenly lyght.

Thomas.

I doe thinke that the Alcumiſtes hauehave taken theire foundacion vppon that Philoſophie…. For that is the true manner for to extract the fifte eſſence. But I thinke that thoſe Phiſiciens of the ſoules had néede to ſée their vrine for to make them better know their complexion, and to giuegive vntounto them the medicine and purgation méete for the ſame.

Hill…ins.

It ſhould be then néedefull that the Soules that are in Hell and in Purgatorye ſhoulde aſwell hauehave, Eſculapius or Coſme and Daiman for their Phiſitious, p. 33as the Gods and Saints hauehave in heauen, and by a The phiſitions and paticaries of hell.better reaſon. For the Gods and the Saints hauehave no more néede neither of medicine nor of purgation as the poore ſoules hauehave that are kept in Purgatory. I know not how the auncient Poets and Painims hauehave gyuen vntounto Mercury the office of Phiſicke, for to practice his medicines in Mercury.Hell, with which hée guideth the ſoules, for to make them to paſſe ouer the floudes by Charon the ferry man: For he had bene very méete and proper for the ſoules.

Thomas.

But when they ſhall hauehave a Phiſition, who ſhall bée their Poticary, for to make their drouges?

Hillarius.

The Prieſtes, which hauehave their ſhops full, The purging drougs of the panims.and are better furniſhed with them then euer the Panims were, which had chiefly thrée ſortes of drougs, for the purgacions as well of the quicke as the dead, the which Ouid hath comprehended in thrée woordes, ſaying:

Three times the olde man vvaſhed vvas, vvith Water faire & cleereOuid.

And vvith hot fire and Sulphur ſtrong, he purged doth appeare.

Beſides theſe purgations of the water, fire, & brimſtone, Cuperent luſtrari ſi qua darentur Sulphura cum t… di…, a u… ſi ſores humida laurus.they had alſo their holy winnowinges or faminges, which they vſed chiefly at the feaſtes and ſacrifices of God Baccus, the which they made with a fanne conſecrated for that pourpoſe.

Theophilus.

Beholde the dreamings wherein men doe fall, yea the moſt wiſeſt, when they gyue themſelues The holy fannings of Baccusto play the Philoſopher with heauenly things after their owne fantaſie and minde without the ſpirite of God, and that they doe ſéeke the purgation of their ſinnes in their purgatories, beſides Ieſus Chriſt.

Thomas.

Mée thinckes that wée doe yet reteine almoſt all thoſe cuſtomes. For wée doe light and offer torches, tapers and candels of Waxe, as well for the dead, as for thoſe that are aliue. And the firſt thing that we muſt hauehave, when one dyeth, are the torches to leade hym to hye graue. And all the yeare after wée muſt hauehave Candels lighted vponupon his Sepulcher, and after to offer them vntounto The torches & lights at the burials.the Prieſtes.

Hillarius.

It is bicauſe they ſée not.

Thomas.

Whom do you meane? the Prieſts or thoſe that bée dead?

Hillarius.

Both the one & the other. We cannot deny but that the dead bodyes hauehave loſt their ſight, & that they are in darkeneſſe, as touching their body. But neuertheleſſe the ſhining and brightneſſe of the torches Virg. Caſſum lumine lugent.ſerueth them to no pourpoſe. I thincke alſo that the ſoule hath no neede of them. For if it goe into Paradiſe, it hath the Angels to carry it thether, as the ſoule of Lazarus was carryed by the Angels into Abrahams boſome. For that Luc. 16. 2. …Luke 16:2hath light inough and the Angels alſo wyth the brightneſſe of God. Wherefore they hauehave not to doe wyth our light, that cannot ſerue for the ſoule, but for the body onelyonly. If the ſoule goe into hell, there are guides inough for to bring it thether, and it is not nowe neceſſary that we do giuegive light to it. It hath the Angels of Sathan altogether contrarie to the other Angels to carry it thether.

Thomas.

But if it go into Purgatory, for that it is ſo déep, hath it no néede of light for to conduct them through thoſe darke places?

Hillarius.

If that which they ſaye bée true, there is fire inough, without putting any more vntounto it. And if that fire bée not ſufficient for them, I thincke that the light of our torches cannot giuegive light there. For if the Sunne beames and his brightneſſe cannot enter and pearce through, what may wée hope of our fire? You may then vnderſtande by theſe reaſons that all theſe lights ſerue nothinge at all for the dead, nor profite them, neither for the body nor yet the ſoule. It muſt be then that they doe profite the Prieſtes, or els it is a loſt labour. But wherein can they ſerue for them? For if they bee blinde, and that the Sunne light helpeth them not, no more ſhall they ſee by the illumination of the torches and candels. If they doe ſee cléere inough, they hauehave no néede: for the cléereneſſe of the Sunne ought to ſuffice them: except they buryed them in the nyght, as the Panims dyd bury the poore that had not money to pay for their funerall pompe.

Thomas.

It muſt then bée that they are eyther madde The burying of the poore in the night.& out of their wyt, or els that they would ſhew by the ſame, p. 34that thoſe that do ſuch things are fooles and depriued of all vnderſtanding.

Hillarius.

I thincke that they would do In Apotheg. Diogenes.as Diogenes did, who at noone dayes lighted a candle, and did ſéeke for men in the middle of the Market wyth a lanterne.

Thomas.

To what pourpoſe dyd hée the ſame?

Hillarius.

For to make men to vnderſtande, that they were beaſtes wythout reaſon and vnderſtanding, and that hée had much a doe to finde men, that is to ſaye, wyſe men, both of wit and iudgement, although hée ſought them with a lanterns. Should hée not hauehave more occaſion to doe the ſame nowe at this preſent time? For to what ende do all thoſe lights ſerue, but for to declare that we are the ſucceſſours The imitacion of the Panims.of the Panims who after the ſame ſort vſed torches, and candels at the burials and funerals of their dead? For we hauehave not read in all the holy Scriptures that euer the true ſeruauntes of God hauehave lighted candels for the dead. Nor that they were euer in ſuch ſuperſtition. Alſo we néed not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith wée The holy vvater.ſprinkle the graues of the dead, is alſo taken of the immitation of the Panims.

Theophilus.

I doubt it not. It is very true, that the auncient The baptiſmes. and vvaſhinges of the …hvish people Leuit. 16. c. Nomb. 19. a. 4 Heb. 9. d. 13.Lev 16Heb 9people of God had certeine waſhings & certeine baptiſmes, for their purifications: not that they did thinck that the filthineſſe and vncleaneneſſe of the ſoule & conſcience, could be waſhed & made cleane, by the water & corruptible Elements. For ſith that the ſoule is a ſpirit, it muſt hauehave a ſpirituall purgation, agreeing to his nature, and not corporall.

Thomas.

What profit then do they receiue of ſuch ceremonies?

Theophilus.

They did the ſame for to teſtifie & witneſſe that they were ſinners, polluted & vncleane, and that they had need of a purgation, the which they could not finde in themſelues, but muſte ſéeke it of others. Foraſmuch then as they acknowledge themſelues ſinners, and in makinge open confeſſion by thoſe exteriour and outwarde waſhings, and do witneſſe that the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt was neceſſarie for them for the waſhinge awaye of their ſins, they pleaſed by that obedience and confeſſion, God, and by the faith that they had in Ieſus Chriſt, …figured by thoſe ceremonies and ſacramentes, whom they did looke for to bée their Sauiour. They did truely communicate the bloud of Ieſus, which for them ought to hauehave bene ſhed, as wée doe by the baptiſme, ſauing but that wée had all things more excellent then they. But wée doe not finde that they euer baptized the dead, nor ſprinkled their Sepulchres with coniured Water.

Hillarius.

Wée reade that the heathen Prieſtes vſed in their purgations, the water of the ſea, with which they ſprinckled that which they would purge: Proclus de ſacrif. & mag. Salt vvater. The propertie of Salt.Of which Proclus that noble Philoſopher the Platoniſt yeldeth the reaſon, ſaying that ſuch water hath the propertie to purge, bicauſe it is ſalt, and that the ſalt hath in it ſome portion of the fire, and holdeth ſomewhat of his Nature. That ſame maketh mée to thincke that our Prieſtes for that ſame cauſe dyd put ſalte in their holy Water. For before they dyd coniure the Water, they dyd firſt coniure the ſalte, and after dyd put it into the Water.

Thomas.

They dyd it after the example of Eliſeus.

Theophilus.

But Eliſeus dyd not caſt the ſalt into the The exemple of Eliſeus. 4. Reg. 2. d. 21 De conſecr. daſt. 3. cap. Aquam.water, for to coniure the Diuels there wyth, but hath done it for to purge and make it cleane, bicauſe that it was infected and poiſoned, ſo much y^• none could drincke of it. And notwithſtanding that Eliſeus dyd put ſalte in it, yet neuertheleſſe the ſalt of his nature had not the propertie to correct and amend the corruption of the Water, if the vertue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculouſly: As it is declared by the applications of the thinges, which Ieſus The ſpittle of Ieſus Chriſt. Mar. 7. d. 3…Mark 7Chriſt vſed, as in putting the ſpittle vponupon the tongues of thoſe that were dumme, for to make them ſpeake: or vponupon the eyes of the blinde, for to make them ſee: or wythin Iohn. 9. a, 6John 9the eares of thoſe that were deafe for to make them heare: not bicauſe that hée coulde not dooe that wythout ſuche applications, as hée hath very well declared in a The applicatiōs of Ieſus Chriſt.great many other of his woorkes: For howe oftentimes hath hée healed them in touching them onelyonly, either by …at. 6. a 3 Mat. 9… Mar. 5. c. 29Matt 9Mark 5the hand, as the leapers, or by y^• gowne, as y^• woman which p. 35was diſeaſed with the iſſue of bloude, and others, without either ſéeing or touching them, as the ſon of y^• Centurion: Mat. 8. a. 5Matt 8But euen as thereby hée woulde declare that al procéeded from his vertue and power, & not of the creatures. Alſo ſometime hée vſed them for to let vsus to vnderſtande, that when hée woulde they ſhoulde ſerue, hée gaue them ſuch vertue and propertie as it pleaſeth him, & for to learne vsus that wée ought not to deſpiſe the meanes that hée hath The meanes of God.gyuen vntounto vsus, how vile ſoeuer our reaſon iudgeth them to bée. For whatſoeuer they may bée, ſo that hee hath ordeined them, and that wée hauehave hys promiſe, wée muſte not doubt but by them hée doth that which hée hath promyſed. Therefore hée hath taken thinges, which had not of their owne nature the vertue to bringe to paſſe thoſe effectes, to whiche they hauehave bene applyed, that all men might knowe, that from hym onelyonly procéeded the vertue, and not of any ordinary or naturall cauſe. But theſe miraculous woorkes, are nothinge at all lyke vntounto thoſe which our Prieſtes doe: and theire ceremonies, hauehave not ſuch promiſes. If by that they could remedy ſhe corrupt waters, as Eliſeus did, we will acknowledge the gyft to woorke myracles to bée in them which was in Eliſeus. But to what ende ſerueth the ſalt in the water?

Hillarius.

To what ende ſerueth it to bée put into the Infants ſalted. The ſalt in the Baptiſme.mouthes of the little children, when they baptize them?

Theophilus.

As much as their ſpittle profited the infants béeing put into their mouthes, vppon the tongue and vppon the eares.

Hillarius.

Mée thinckes that I doe ſee Apes, which would counterfet al y^• woorkes of Ieſus Chriſt: Apes that coū terfet Ieſus Chriſt.At the leaſt wiſe all their dooings are as thoſe of the Apes, which doth but little and yet euill. If they could by their ſpittle make the little children and thoſe that are dumme The ſpittle of the Prieſtes.ſpeake: or make the blinde ſée, and the deafe heare, I would counſaile them to vſe it often: But if I had a little childe, I would not hauehave that ſuch ſwiniſh & pockie Merchaunts as are among them ſhould breath ouer his face, nor put their ſpittle in his mouth. They doe call their ſalt, y^• ſalt of wiſdome: And in ſtéed to ſeaſon vsus & to make vsus wiſe through the ſalt of the woord of God: They ſalt vsus in the throat at The ſalt of vviſdome. Accipe ſal ſapientiae. The ſalt of gods vvord. The ſalt of the prieſtes.the baptiſme. I thincke that they feared y^• the wine would not abide drincking, & that we ſhould not be good bibbers. Wherefore they would ſeaſon vsus in good time. I beléeue that they greatly feared leaſt we ſhould become Turkes, and leaſt we ſhould caſt vp the wine, if they ſalted not wel the throate, as men doe vntounto their ſhéepe. If they coulde with their ſalt make the fooles to become wiſe, I woulde The ſeaſoning of fooles.thinck it good to ſalt al the fooliſh people as men do ſalt the fat larde, throughout all the body not onelyonly in the throat.

Thomas.

I would not giuegive y^• counſaile. For then the ſalt would ware very déere, if Saloman hath ſaid true, wryting, Eccle. 1.Eccl 1that the number of the fooles are infinit. Hlilarius. Thy reaſon is good. For y^• inconuenience which thou ſpeakeſt off would follow, and an other more greater: To wéet, that S. Maturyn who healed the fooles, ſhould looſe his occupation: Beſios that I beléeue that the ſalt, although there Sainct Ma…in.be great quantitie & ſtore of it, wil not much profit y^• ſoules when the Prieſtes doe mingle them with the Water. For the diſeaſe is very incurable. But for to retourne to our Prieſts, I doo beléeue that of that ſalt & Water, they would make ſuch potage for the ſoules, as my Mother did potage for the ſoules.once make for hir ſelfe & for me & my little brother which were not much aboue twelue or xiij. yeares of age, without putting into it eitheir Oile or Butter, bicauſe that ſhe would hauehave vsus to faſt with hir with bread & water: For if ther had bene any fatneſſe in the broth or potage, it had not bene a perfect faſt. If it bée ſo, our Prieſts on this ſide the ſea, which dwell farre from it, ſhould hauehave better coulour & cauſe to ſalt & ſeaſon the water, then thoſe y^• dwell hard by it. For if they would make potage for the ſoules, they ſhall finde inough of ſuch ſodden Water in the ſea, & they ſhall not néede to ſeeke after the example of Eliſeus for to make him their Authour: For he was neuer ſuch a Cooke: But Alexander. 1 the firſt inuentour of holy vvater.they muſt giuegive the honour of that inuētion vntounto Pope Alexander the firſt of that name. For if they will purge the p. 36dead through water, I woulde gyue them counſaile rather platine in vit. Alex. 1. de conſecra. diſt. 3 cap. aquam. The bathes of the dead.to waſh them altogether with hotte Water, as the Panims dyd theirs, and call that waſhing the laſt bath or waſhing, euen as our Prieſts doo call their laſt an cling or vnction, the latter Sacrament: In which they doe héerein differ from the Panims, that they anoynted men a lyttle before they dye, & the Panims anointed them afterwardes. Wherefore their vnction was a little more latter. But leaſt you ſhould thincke that I ſpeake wythout authoritie, as many Diuines and Preachers doe, when they doo preache their owne fables and dreames, I will bring out firſt for mine Authours that auncient Poet Ennius, ſaying.

Ennius.When death vvith dreadfull dart, bereft, king Tarquin of his life

His body vvaſht and nointed vvas, by handes of his ovvne vvife.

And Virgile ſpeakinge of the burninge of Miſenus, ſayth:

Some brought the Water vvarme, in Caudrōs hot they ſet in flowreVirg. Aene. 6

The body colde they vvaſh, a precious ointment on they powre.

If the water could any thing profite the deade, it were better to make for them a great bath, & to plunge all their body, in a great tub of Water, and to waſh them well for a good ſpace, then to ſprinckle them ſo little. For me ſéemeth that that manner of dooing is more proper for to kindle the fire of Purgatory, if the Water doth deſcend thether, then for to quench it. And the ſame I wyll proue by authoritie and by examdle. I wyll firſt proue it by the authoritie of many good Phiſitions, which ſay that when a man is very drie for want of drincke, it is better for him to drincke a good draught at once then to ſippe often: For that ſame doth not quenche the heate that is in the body, but kindleth it the more. And to the ende that The examples of the Smithes.it doe not ſéeme that they ſpeake that wythout reaſon, they doe alſo alleadge the example of the Smythes, the which I will bring foorth for my ſeconde argument, which is infallible, inaſmuch as it is alwayes confirmed by experience. For wée ſée that when they woulde hauehave their To vvhat ende ſerueth y^• vvashing of the deade bodies.coales burne well, and to giuegive great heat they ſprinckle thē with water, which they hauehave alwayes ready, wyth a little ſprinckle or beſome, as the Prieſtes hauehave them in their holy water ſtocke. There is yet an other reaſon, for which I doe finde the manner of the Panims better and more lowable, bicauſe that at the leaſtwiſe that ſhall ſerue for the dead, for to proue whether they bée dead or not: For it Thoſe that are aliue reputed to be dead.chaunceth oftentimes through ſome diſeaſe, that the ſpirite is ſo locked and encloſed in the body, that man loſeth altogether his breath, in ſuch ſort that one can by no meanes perceiue it, but iudgeth him to bée dead, and ſo hée is deceiued. By that meanes ſometimes ſome hauehave bene buryed quicke: The which thing ought very much to bée feared in all ſuffocations and chokings, and chiefly of the matrice Suffocations.of women, and alſo in the time of the peſtilence or plague: wherein many times it hath bene found that they The time of peſtilence.hauehave brought to bée buryed thoſe who were found aliue. Wherefore it is not méete to bury any dead body to ſodeine, eſpecially when hée dyeth ſodeinly. For y^• may very well ſometime happen vntounto man, which we hauehave proued in ſome beaſtes, namely in the Dormouſe, which hauehave bene The Dormouſe.found ſo faſt of ſléepe in the Winter, that it is not poſſible to awake them: As it hath ben many times proued in ſome of them, who although they were cut a ſunder in the middle did not wag nor ſtur vntill ſuch time as they are put into hot ſething water. And to that ende and pourpoſe many Plini. Nat hiſt. li. 7. cap. 52. Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 8 A. Auiola L. Lam…a.Hiſtoriographers and namely Pliny maketh mention of one Attilius Auiola, & Lucius Lamia, that after that their bodies were caſt vponupon the woode for to be burned after the cuſtome of the auncient Romaines, did ſtand right vp when they felt the heate of the fire, and there taried ſtil. For none could ſuccour & helpe them bicauſe y^• fire was kindled about them, but were burned all aliue.

Thomas.

Thoſe hauehave no néed to go into purgatory. For they hauehave ben purged inough p. 37alredy.

Hillarius.

For y^• cauſe y^• panims dyd not burne the bodyes of thoſe that dyed incontinently, but kept them ſeauen dayes, and waſhed them in hot water, and bewayled and lamented them with a loude voyce many times, as we Singing after the dead.doe vntounto thoſe that doe ſounde or faynt, when any fayntneſſe of heart hath taken them. And after when they hauehave bewayled them the laſt time, they doe burne them the eight day, and the nynthe day they bury their aſhes. For that cauſe doe they alſo celebrate the nyne dayes feaſte for the ſoule of the dead.

Thomas.

If that which you ſpeake off be true, we do but a lyttle differ from them. For our prieſts doe cry after them with ſo loud a voyce, that if they be not deafe or altogether dead, they would awake.

Hillarius.

There is no difference, but that we are more fooliſh & more mad then the Panims. For the Panims do not crye after the dead, but vntill they are burned and their aſhes buryed: But our Prieſtes doe crye after them ouer their Tombes and Sepulchers, twentie, thirtie, fortie, yea a hundreth yeares after their death, and although they are altogether conſumed to duſte. But I finde them a greate deale wiſer and better aduiſed in that matter, for that they doe ſprinkle theire Sepulchers with water onelyonly, and not with wine, as the Panims that did ſhed out great aboundaunce of wine, and milke vppon the Sepulchers, and To offer vvine for the dead.more lyberally then thoſe doe the holy water.

Thomas.

They were very fooles, doe they thinke that that wine deſcendeth into Purgatory, for to giuegive drincke to the ſoules of the dead, or the bodyes that were in the Sepulchers?

HIllarius.

We are aſmuch fooles if we do thinke that the holye water, wherewith we ſprinkle the Sepulchers and Churchyards, doth deſcend into Purgatory for to quench and put out the fire. For when the prieſt maketh his Aſperges in the Maſſe, and in caſting the holy water vppon the people, if he doe ſée any that putteth not off his cappe or bonet for to receiue that holy coniured and charmed water, he cryeth out vppon him and calleth him Lutherian and Hereticke. Neuertheleſſe if their holy water had ſuch ſtrength to penetrate and goe thorow into Purgatory, it is meruayle if it cannot aſwell pearce and goe thorow a cappe or bonet, without putting it of the head.

Thomas.

From whence thinke you that that manner to To ſprinkle the ſepulchers with vvater.ſprinkle the Scpulchers with water did firſt come?

Hillarius.

Truly I know not: excepte it be done in ſtéede that as the Panims after the burninge did ſprinkle with water all thoſe that were there preſent, for to purifie them The purifications at the funeralls.from the pollution and filth that they might receiue, in approching nigh the dead: with which they did thinke themſelues defiled. And in ſtéede that the Panims did purifie thoſe that be alyue, our Prieſtes will purifie thoſe that bée dead, and when they are vppon the earthe and vnderunder the earthe: Or peraduenture that cuſtome firſt came or tooke his beginninge, for that the Panims did decke and To beutifie the ſepulchers with flovvers.beautifie their Sepulchers with goodly flowers. Afterwards they ſprinkeled them with water, to make them continue the longer freſh and ſwéete. The which is vſed at The cuſtome of the Bigordains. Bag…teres. Ratio diui off. de offi. mor. li. 7. Reiſerſpeeg. Sermo dominie. 20 poſt Trinita.this day in the country of Bigore, in the Citie of Bagnieres hard by the hills Pyrenes: And amonge ſome other Chriſtians, aſwel in Almaigne as in other countryes, who doe put hats or garlands of flowers, eyther of Baye or of Iuye within the béere vnderunder the body of the dead, bicauſe they ſhould kéepe a long time their verdure and ſwéetneſſe. But bicauſe peraduenture you may deſire the witneſſe of all theſe things, which I hauehave now declared vntounto you of the Panims, I would y^• you ſhould heare thē ſpeake themſelues, as already before we hauehave done it, tranſlating word for woorde their Latine verſe into Engliſhe rime, to the end that they may kéepe the better their ſtile.

Marke well then the Prince and chiefe of the Poets, touching the cryes and lamentations that they make after the dead, ſpeaking after this manner of the burying of Polidorus.

And holy bloud in baſins brought, we poure and laſt of allVirg. Aen. 3.

We ſhright, and on his ſoule our laſt with great cryes out wee call.

p. 38And as touching the effuſion of the wine, the ſprincklyng of the water and of flowers, the which he hath compriſed altogether, marke what he ſayth at the funeralls of Miſenus.

…Hen falne his ſinders were, and longer blaſe did not endureAene. 6.

His reliques & remaine of duſt, with wines they waſhed pure.

Then Choryney his bones, in braſen coffin bright did cloſe

And ſprinklyng vvater pure, about his mates three times he goes.

And drops of ſacred devv, with Olyue palmes on them did ſhake,

And compaſſe bleſt them all, and ſentence laſt he ſadly ſpake.Requieſeant in pace.

To fields of ioy thy ſoule, and endeleſſe reſt we doe betake.

And in an other place ſpeaking of the Anniuerſary that Aeneas did for his father Anchiſes ſayth.

…E from the counſel came with thouſāds thick in mightie thrōgVirg. Aene. 9

VntoUnto his fathers tom be, in mids of all his Princes ſtrong.

Two bowles of bleſſed vvine, in ſolemn guiſe he caſt on groūd,

And milke in baſins tvvayne, about the tombe he poured round.

And tvvayne of ſacred bloud, then all the graue he ſpred & layd,

With flovvres of purple hevves, and thus at laſt full lovvd he prayd.

Thou haſt heard the words of the Poet, or at the leaſt the ſence of them, which hauehave giuen mée occaſion to thinke that which I hauehave tolde vntounto thée. Neuertheleſſe it may bée that our prieſts hauehave inuented that manner to ſprinkle the Sepulchers with water, for to ſpare the wine, the whiche they had rather drincke then to ſhedde it, and they will not bée ſo prodigall in ſpending the wyne ſo much as they doe the water.

Thomas.

We doe not ſpare it therefore. For we are compelled to giuegive drinke to the ſoules all the yeare.

Hillarius.

We are the more fooles: But our Prieſtes are wiſer then the Panims. For they hauehave no regarde to giuegive the ſoules drinke, nor to poure it vppon the earthe, for to ſprinkle the Sepulchers: but doe poure it into their bellyes, and ſprinkle their conſciences, and will keepe the lawe of Numa ky…e of the Romaynes, ſaying: Doe The …vv of Numa.not poure out the wine vppon the aſhes and Sepulchers of Vino rogum ne reſpergito.the dead.

Thomas.

They are then the Lieuetenaunts of the ſoules, but I would hauehave no ſuch Lieuetenants at my table. I had rather to giuegive them charge to faſt for mée, then to eate, & had rather hauehave them héerem my Lieuetenants. But let vsus alſo ſpeake of the wynnowings that you hauehave ſet foorth for the thirde manner of Purgatory, y^• which the auncients had and vſed. I know not whether we vſe them towards the dead: But I hauehave ſéene them vſed towardes thoſe that be alyue. I hauehave ſéene them vſed towardes thoſe that be alyue. I hauehave ſéene the prieſtes to winde the women and lyttle children with the platine, meſſell and corporall cloth in the Maſſe. But I know not to what end the Demoſtb. in Aeſ… chi. Virg. Georg. 1. Et miſtica vannus Ia…bi.winde can ſerue for y^• ſoules in Purgatory, but for to blow their fire.

Hillarius.

I would counſayle them to hauehave a Fanne, as the Panims had, which was made holy for to make their holy winnowings. When I hauehave throughlye conſidered it, I doe thinke that our Prieſtes and Monkes cannot giuegive ſo good reaſon of y^• that they do, as y^• Panims. And for to tell the truthe, mée thinketh that they are lyke vntounto thoſe Emperiques, that hauehave but one receyte for all Emperiques.diſeaſes and complexions, for al ages, times and countries, who doe kil more then they do heale: or for to make y^• compariſon Melters.more proper, they make me to remēber thoſe Surgions which doe greaſe thoſe that hauehave the goute and the pocks, whome they cauſe al to paſſe thorow their furnace, for to melt them all anew.

Theophilus.

Sith that they diſpiſe and contemne the The Purgatory of thoſe that hauehave the poxe.Goſpell, and that by the ſame they will not be made newe creatures, forſaking their olde Adam, & the concupiſcence of their fleſh, it is good reaſon, that they hauehave ſuch Smithes and melters for to make them new agayne. And ſith that men doe make no puniſhment. God through his iuſt iudgement will make them to feele that fire, for to quench the fire of concupiſcence which burneth in their heart and vaines, if they can conſider it, which is for theire profite, and to draw them from their whoredome.

Thomas.

Men hauehave The dyet.now founde out, that they can heale thorow the dyet without p. 39melting them.

Hillarius.

I doe greatly feare, that if our Prieſts & Monkes learne none other occupation and ſcience, & that they finde out none other drougs for to purge ſinnes, that they ſhall not finde héereafter any great trade, but ſhalbe conſtrayned to make the dyet themſelues, and the Alcumy with their téeth, the which they doe feare greatly. For men will giuegive them ſo lyttle to eat, that I greatly doubte that they néede not to learne to faſte and to lyue in more greater ſobrietie and abſtinence, for to coole them a little. For ſith that the fire hath begun to kindle with in their furnace, as Theophilus hath ſayd, and that all is conſumed and burned except hell, it is much to be feared that the regiſter and rentall of theire reuenues with all their rentes The rentall of Purgatory.that come vntounto them yearely of Purgatory be not altogether conſumed and melted. I doe thinke that there is no The Art for to teach y^• prieſtes to be ſober.better remedy for to correct their whoredome, & to learne them ſobrietie and to kéepe a good dyet, then to take from them their Purgatory. Wherfore y^• Souldiers were not altogether The ſalutacion of the Souldiers vntounto the holy fatherseuill aduiſed, nor did not euill vnderſtande that matter, who aunſwered to thoſe holy fathers, in ſtéede of a great curſe when they ſaluted them, with their Pax vobis & pax ſit huic Domini: Dominus auferat vobis Purgatorium. O holy father (ſay they.) They doe praye that the Souldiers may hauehave peace, and the Souldiers to the contrary doe pray for them that God would take from them their Purgatory. And doe ſhew the reaſon. For wee lyue ſaye they by the warre, as you doe of Purgatorye, and you would take it from vsus, and giuegive vntounto vsus peace. Wherfore we pray vntounto God that he would alſo take from you the Purgatory, and you ſhalbe as much eſtoniſhed as we, and doe thinke that you ſhall hauehave no more to eate their we hauehave.

Thomas.

You are of his opinion whome I demaunded not long ſince the expoſition of a place that is in the Goſpel, Mat. 17 d…at To driue ou… Diuels thorow faſting & prayer.Matt 17in which Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaking of him y^• was poſſeſſed with a Diuell, whom his Diſciples could not heale, ſaith: This kinde of Diuells cannot be driuen out but by faſting and prayer.

Hillarius.

What expoſition doth he giuegive vntounto thée vppon the ſame?

Thomas.

That the Prieſtes and Monkes were of that kinde of diuells, that they cannot be driuen away but by prayer and faſting, and therefore ſaith he, giuegive them nothing to eate, but let them faſt as long as they hauehave made you faſt, and pray vntounto God for them.

Hillarius.

Beholde a verie good receite, the which will not coſt verie much at the Apothicaries.

Theophilus.

But wée muſt not ſo ieſt and ſcoffe with Gods woorde.

Thomas.

Notwithſtanding he that aunſwered vntounto me ſo and vntounto many other that were preſent, was one of your people and one of your goodly goſpellers.

Theophilus.

I denye not but that wee hauehave many ſuch, which are good Carnal Goſpellersgoſpellers in not giuing any thing vntounto the Prieſtes, nor yet in offering any thing vntounto them. But that is not ſufficient: Sith that they accompt the Prieſtes and Moukes for Diuells, I woulde gladly that they ſhould practiſe with themſelues that doctrine of Ieſus Chriſt, and that they woulde not be onelyonly goſpellers in eating of fleſh all dayes a like, and in not offering no more vntounto the Prieſtes, nor vntounto their images: But that they woulde giuegive themſelues to pray vntounto God, to deliuer his Church from falſe prophets and ſheperdes, and for to prouide true Prieſtes that doe confeſſe and preach his goſpell. And to the The faſtings & prayers of the Chriſtinasende that their prayers ſhould be the more feruent & done with greater faith, I do alſo deſire that they woulde liue more ſoberly then they hauehave done, and that they would faſt after the manner of the true ſeruauntes of God, for to bee more attentiue and feruent in their prayers, and that they woulde giuegive almes vntounto the poore, of the goods of Ieſus Chriſt that men hauehave ſtollen from his members, for to giuegive them to the Prieſtes.

Thomas.

I am of thine opinion. For as touching the riſide we, I ſée that almoſt euerye one wilbe come a goſpeller in that point, that is in giuing little vntounto y^• Prieſtes. But after all theſe matters, I would gladly that you woulde declare vntounto me, when and howe the fire hath firſt begun in Purgatorie, and ſithence what p. 40time it is burned?

Theophilus.

Sithence that the Goſpel of Ieſus Chriſt hath béene preached by the Apoſtles.

Thomas.

Me thinketh that you ſpeake againſt Hillarie, Hovv Purgatory is burnedand al the catholicke Church. For if it had béene burned ſo long time agon, what Purgatorie ſhould the Prieſtes hauehave had ſithence?

Theophilus.

You muſt vnderſtande, that ſithence the ruines and decayed places thereof hauehave béene repayred and amended by them, as an old houſe that men doe reedifie & amend, after that it is decayed. But ſithence theſe thirtie or twentie yeares, the fire hath begun to kindle againe, and hath conſumed and waſted it altogether. Therefore I doe ſay, that either the holy father the preacher was neuer there, or elſe it is long time ſithence: Wherefore he coulde not be aduertiſed of the houſhold that they kéepe there.

Thomas.

Then I pray you, wherefore is not Hell as well burned which is more dangerous, Hell& in which there is greater fire, then either in y^• Limbe, or in Purgatorie?

Theophilus.

If you had well vnderſtanded that which hath béene alreadie told you, I néeded not nowe to ſatiſfie againe your demaunde. The Limbe and Purgatorie are burned bicauſe they were builded and ſet vp with mens hands, who can make no worke to continue any long time, but that it wilbe rotten in longe continuance, or elſe deſtroyed with the fire whiche conſumeth all 2. Pet 3. d Hell and the paines of hell are eternal2 Pet 3things. But hell is an other thing: there are verie ſtronge walles, which will continue for euer. For euen as God, which is eternall hath builded with his owne hande thoſe goodly celeſtiall pallaces, and hath planted that pleaſant and delectable paradiſe, for to receiue his children and ſeruants into the fruition and pleaſure of the eternall life and felicitie: So hath he conſtituted & appointed for to giuegive vntounto the wicked according to their iniquitie, and to puniſh them as a righteous iudge for their execrable crimes & offences, the fire of Hell in which y^• worme dieth not nor y^• fire is neuer Mar. 9. g. 4 4 Eſa, 66. g. 24 Eſa. 30 g. 30.Mark 9Isa 30quēched. For as witneſſeth y^• prophet Eſay: The Lord doth breath forth, thorow y^• wind of his wrath & indignatiō, & doth cauſe the flouds of Brimſtone to flow out for euer, thorow his wrath and vengeance, inſomuch that there is neuer fire there lacking.

Thomas.

But how hath the fire begun in Purgatory rather ſitheus the time that you hauehave ſpoken, then it did before?

Theophilus.

I do meruayle that in this ſo long time it hath not bene done, and how it could ſo long continue, conſidering the tyranny that was there exerciſed. For ſithens that it was reedyfied and buylded agayne, ther went no more any into Paradiſe nor yet into Hell, but all taryed in Purgatory. Ther was neyther poore nor rich but that all were put in there: and they could not be ſuffered to depart although that they had paid their raunſome two or thrée times, eſpecially when there is wherof to take. For there are ſuch, that after they hauehave bene kepte there already one or two hundreth yeares, yet they hauehave bene conſtrayned to diſburſe yearely, dayly and hourely new money, for to hauehave bulls and pardons, for to hauehave Maſſes, Ʋigiles, Requiems, Libera me, and for to celebrate Yereminds, Anniuerſaryes, for to pay obites, and a great many other ſorts of gatherings, tributes and rents, that it is impoſſible to number them.

Hillarius.

I thinke that there ſhould be goodly and rich mines of gold & ſiluer. I know not whether that fire hath melted & conſumed it al together. For ther was in times paſt great ſtore, that almoſt all the golde and ſiluer of the world, and all the riches and treaſures of the Chriſtians are all gone thether. The Panims held Pluto for the God of hell and of riches, bicauſe they thought him to dwell in Pluto.thoſe low countryes, to which the ſoules did goe: and bycauſe that all the treaſures and riches doe come from the earth, and that one ſhall finde th…r the mynes of gold and of ſiluer. But the more I do thinke on the folly of the Panims, ſo much the more doe I finde ours to be out of reaſon, ſauing that we hauehave in deede that which they had but in figure and imagining. For we hauehave the Pope which is the very Pluto. For he hath both Hell and Paradiſe to ſell. Hée is kinge of Hell, Lymbe and of Purgatory. Hée is Eacus, Minos, and Radamantus. For he iudgeth the …oore p. 41ſoules, as it pleaſeth him, and condemneth them to the Limbe, Purgatory or in hell when it pleaſeth him, & as often as he ſéeth good. And God knoweth what mines of golde and ſiluer, what treaſures & goods he draweth vntounto him: in ſuch ſort that we may very well call him Pluto, Mammon, God of the earth and vnderunder the earth, king of Hell and of all his territories. The more I conſider the thing, ſo much y^• more it maketh me aſtonied. For I hauehave read many hiſtories which make mention of many Tyrants and great théeues, which hauehave bene couetous and raueners without all meaſure: But I know not, whether a man ſhall finde many, or To demaund tribute of the dead.one onelyonly that hath cauſed tribute to be paide by the dead, as be doth dayly among the Chriſtians. If one ſhall finde any, I beléeue at the leaſt that he hath not ſo long compelled the dead to pay tribute. Wée may very well ſay that among the Chriſtians is accompliſhed the prouerbe of the auncientes, who ſpeake of thoſe that with wrong & violence Ariſto. li. 2 R…eto.goe about to hauehave and catch, they demaund tribute of the dead and the meale and flowre of Images: willing alſo by that kinde of ſpeaking, to rebuke thoſe that wil enrich themſelues by vnhoneſt & vnlawfull meanes, & which dooe ſéeke profit of thoſe ſmall & vile thinges, as the Emperour Veſpaſian, who cauſed tribute to be paide of the vryne: and of vile things, as of bawdry, euen as the Pope did that receiued tribute of whoores and of brothell houſes that are at Rome. One may alſo ſpeake it of thoſe that get money of all men, without any difference either of friendes, poore or Sueto in ve…aſ. Tribute of v…ne & of the ſtevves.of the beggers, and in the ende, of thoſe that are deade. But that Prouerbe coulde neuer bée better applyed, then to our Prieſtes and Monkes. Veſpaſian althoughe hée was otherwyſe a good Emperour, hath bene taxed of couetouſneſſe for that tribute that hée receyued of the vryne. And when his ſonne Titus who was aſhamed, Veſpaſian & Titus S… to in Veſpaſ.admoniſhed him, hée cauſed him to ſmell at hys noſe the money hée receyued, afterwarde aſked hym, whether hée dyd ſmell the vryne? When Titus had aunſwered hym, that no, hée ſayde vntounto him then? All ſauour is good ſo that money doe come. The ſauour of the gaine is good which way ſoeuer it doe come and of what thing ſoeuer it …ix…i bonus odor exre qu… libet. B…ry ſauour is good ſo that mony come.bée. Our Prieſtes hauehave kepte well that prouerbe and knowe very well to practiſe it. For notwithſtanding that the dead carrens of whom they take money, doe ſtincke, it ſufficeth them ſo that the money doth not ſtincke. The Romaine Princes hauehave bene in the olde time much deſpiſed, The auarice of the Romaines Necrocorinth…a.for that they hauehave digged vp the monuments of the Corinthians, and hauehave carryed awaye their Images and pictures of braſſe. But what ſhall men ſay of theſe héere? They are not content with the diſmes, prebendes, benefices, rentes and reuenewes that they hauehave continually, but The Chriſtians contributaries before they be borne and after they be dead.wée muſt gyue them newe money dayly, after that wée bée conceyued in our Mothers belly, vntill an hundreth yeares after wée bée deade and more. If our Mother that beareth vsus doe take any hurt bicauſe of hir childe, ſhée ſhall make incontinently a vowe vntounto ſome Sainct, and ſhall cauſe Maſſes to bée ſayde, and ſhall bringe money vntounto the Prieſt, and ſhall binde hir ſonne to kéepe the vowe and to doe the like when he commeth to age. Are wée not already appointed to paye a raunſome in our Mothers belly? Doe wée not begin to pay tribute, before wée bée borne? Afterwardes if the childe bée borne? hée ſhall not bée baptized, nor can be a Chriſtian, excepte you dooe Baptiſme.paye money. Beholde the happy houre that wée hauehave immedeatly at the enteringe into the Churche. Muſte the childe bée anealed and confirmed? hée muſt paye, for they will not laye onelyonly their handes vppon hym, nor hée Confirmationſhal not hauehave the holy Oyle & Creame, except that he hauehave Confeſsion Singing of Maſſes.ready money. Will hée bée confeſſed? hée muſt paye. Will he hauehave Maſſes & prayers ſaid for him? he muſt pay. Will hée receiue the Lordes ſupper? he muſt buye Ieſus The Supper.Chriſt with ready money.

Theophilus.

Yet their money were but a ſmall tryfle and a thing of nothing, if that that they did, were accordinge to Gods ordinaunce: But it is altogether contrary.

Hillarius.

Will hée marrie? hée cannot bée wedded p. 42Marriage.but that hée muſt paye. Will hée bée a Prieſt? GOD To take orders.knoweth howo oft hée muſt put his hande into his pourſe before y^• he hath paſſed thorow all their orders. But after hée wyll make the poore people paye for it. Doth hée fall ſicke and will hée bée anealed? and hauehave his laſt Sacrament? Extrem vnctiō.hée muſt paye. I dooe not knowe howe, but that wée maye bée all good Arithmeticians, althoughe wée hauehave neuer ſéene Arithmaticke nor yet caſtinge of accomptes. For wée doe practiſe all our lyfe tyme no other Arithmeticians. & the ſchole of Arithmaticke.ſcience with them. Wée néede not to ſende our children vntounto Schoolemaiſters for to learne them to accompte, cifre and number. For they maye learne verye well with them. They will neither conſecrate nor coniure not ſo much as a ſtone, chalice, candle, or a droppe of water, they will not ſo much as lifte vp their hande for to make a croſſe and bleſſe but with two fingers wythoute putting out all their hande, without ſome hope of gaine. They will not ſo muche as to bleſſe a roote, a graine of The bleſsings of the Miſſell, the Portus and of the Manuel of the Prieſtes. Benedictio …ladi, ſalis, & ouorum Benedictio raſurni. Benedictio pera & baculi. Benedictio anuli & lecti. Benedictio panis, et ſeminum. Benedictio domus nou…. Benedictio eaſula. Benedictio ad omnia.ſalte, or of wheate, an egge or a morſell of chéefe, or a roote when one woulde ſéeth it, or the ſcrippe or hooked ſtaffe of a Pilgrime, when hée woulde goe on his voiage, or the ringe or the bed of one that is wedded, but that they muſt hauehave ſome thing.

Thomas.

They do meddle with a great many of things if they doe all that.

Hillarius.

Their Miſſels, Porteſſes and Manuels may beare wytneſſe, if you will not beléeue mée. But you may well perceiue and knowe that they hauehave not innented all thoſe manner of dooinges, but thereby the better to get money eueryevery where, the which they gette verye eaſely and without any great trauaile, but onelyonly in making of croſſes, and mumblinge ſome wordes after the manner of inchaunters. But into what daunger I doe caſte my ſelfe? I had rather to drawe out all the water of the ſea, then to declare all the manner of the pillings that they dooe vntounto vsus. The Hiſtoriographers dooe accompte as deteſtable crymes the tributes, and vnhoneſte gaynes, the rapines and extorcions that the Tyrantes and Romaine The rapines and extortions of … the Emperour Caligula. Sueto. Trāq. in Calig. The pride of Caligula.Emperours hauehave exerciſed, chiefly Caligula & Nero: But theſe héere wyll iuſtifie them and accompt them for good men in reſpect of them, if that time ſhoulde continue a little longer. It is written of Caligula (who was ſo bolde that he would be worſhipped as God, & hath builded a temple in his honour during his lyfe) that hée ſpared neither Ioſeph. Anti. li. 18. ca. 15.man nor any thing whatſoeuer it bée, to the which hée hath Tribute of vittailes and of proces.not laide ſome tribute. Hée receiued certeine tribute of all manner of vittaile that are ſolde in the Citie. There was neither plaint, proces, cauſe nor iudgement, of which he toke not the fortie part of the ſumme for which the controuerſy was, inſomuch that if the plaint had bene fortie thouſande crownes, he would take a thouſād for his part. He receiueth Tribute of get p…nce and of harlots.the eight part of the gaine that the poore get pence, iangellers, log carriers, and other like did dayly gette. Alſo the common harlots and whoores muſt not onelyonly pay vntounto him when & as often as they did commit whoredome, but did alſo compell thoſe y^• before time vſed that occupation, & which had bene whooremongers and bawdes: and not content with Tribute of marriages.that, did receiue tribute of thoſe that are married. The plaiers alſo of cardes and dice were not exempted. But which Tribute of plaiing at cardes & dice.is more, he cauſed to be builded & ſet vp houſes for whoores for to make his reuenewes the greater.

Thomas.

Beholde moſt vile, excecrable and moſt vnworthy things, I ſay not of an Emperour, but of the moſt wickedſt man in the whole worlde. That is much worſe then to recouer tribute of vrine and piſſe.

Hillarius.

If you thincke that to be vnworthy for a heathen Emperour, what maye you iudge of the Pope and his officers, if they doe the lyke, yea, or rather worſe? You hauehave already hearde howe that there is neither poore man nor rich, of whom they hauehave not gotten money eueryevery way and dayly. And if you will knowe what tribute they receyue of the victualles they ſell, you muſt aſke the Itali…ns, The papiſticall tribute of the vi…a…les.who can tell by experience. I doe beléeue that Caligula neuer vſed ſuche crueltie as Pope Clement vſed, p. 43altogether contrary to his name, who in the time of dearth The crueltie of Pope Clementand famine, ſéeing that the poore people had not any other thing to eat then hearbes, of which they made ſallets for to nouriſh and féede them, the better to ſhew foorth his clemencie, pittie & compaſſion that he had of the poore people of Italy béeing much oppreſſed with hunger, cauſed to make their ſalt deerer, and ſet a talent vponupon it, to the end that they could not eate a ſallet but that they muſt pay tribute. But Diſpenſations for to eat flesh and milkedoe we not dayly ſée the money that they get vntounto them, for to diſpence with thoſe that would eat fleſh & al ſuch meates as are made of milke, againſt their decrées? Theſe are meruaylous ſellers of vittailes and Bouchers, that receiue money of fleſh, egs, milke, butter and cheeſe, and doe neuer dyſtribute any thing. And of their plaintés and proces, doth ther come vntounto them ſmal gaine? And at Rome, Boulong…e and other Cities ſubiect vntounto the Pope, hath he not officers Phil. Beroal. in Sueto Caig. Tribute of vvhores Prafecti Bulle tarum.and other Cities ſubiect vntounto the Pope, hath he not officers and magiſtrates that receiue monthly tribute of whoores and of thoſe women that are forſaken? which are commonly called the Popes pardoners.

Theophilus.

The Lord by Moſes hath forbidden that one ſhall not offer the hire of an whoore nor the price of a Dog. But thoſe are not diſdainfull. At the leaſt wiſe they Deut. 23. c. 18 Alexander Seuerus emperour lampi id in Alexand.Deut 23did as the Emperour Alexander, who did forbid that ſuch tributes ſhould not be put into the treaſure of the temple, nor of the common wealth.

Hillarius.

I doe alſo thincke that thoſe doe not put in much, and that the Biſhops do not enrich very much the treaſures of the Church, with the tributes y^• they hauehave receiued of their whooremaiſter Prieſts for ſuff…ring them to hauehave their concubines, whome they louelove a great deale better, then if they were honeſter men. For they ſhould not hauehave ſo much gaine. But I thincke that the Pope who is the great prince and capitaine of the bawdes ought alſo to compell the Biſhops who are the The Bishoppes Bavvdes to the prieſtes.bawdes, vntounto their Prieſts, to pay vntounto him tribute, of the tribute that they hauehave gotten. But the thing might yet be more tollerable if they had but onelyonly rendered the tribute of y^• whoores, to that they had exempted thoſe that are marryed, of which they doo receiue no leſſe money, as well of the proces which their decrées and canons hauehave ingendered, as of the diſpenſations, as well for the eſpouſes as of the degrées of conſanguinitie and other like thinges. It is alſo written of Nero, that hée neuer gaue any office to any perſon, but that hée added and ſayde. Thou knoweſt that I muſt hauehave. Letting vsus to vnderſtand, that they muſte The ſelling of Offices. Nero. Sueto. Tran. in Nero. Scis quid mibi opus ſit: & hoc aga…s ne quis qui…qu…n habeat Alexander Emperour.paye. For he hath néede of money: And after that ſort hée was the ſeller of offices and of Magiſtrates, which is a very vnworthy thing for a good Prince. But the auarice and rapacite of Nero, nor the ſelling of offices were nothinge in compariſon of that which is in the Popiſhe Church, in all offices and benefices.

Theophilus.

Alexander Seuerus a Romaine Emperour howe greate a Panim ſoeuer hée were, ſhall hauehave good occaſion at the daye of iudgement to riſe againſt that generation. For hee woulde neuer ſuffer that any ſhoulde ſell either honors or offices, ſpeaking theſe wordes worthy to be remembred. It is neceſſary that he y^• byeth do ſell. Wherefore I will not ſuffer Merchaunts of eſtates & offices.

Hillarius.

Beholde the woordes of a worthy Prince: Neceſſe eſt vt qui emit venda…. Ego non patior mareatores poteſtatum.But woulde to GOD that the Pope and his Popelinges did no worſe then thoſe Tyrantes, and that they woulde ſuffer vsus at the leaſt to bee at peace and reſt after that wée bée deade, and that wée might dye without paying any thinge, ſith that our lyſe hath coſt vsus ſo much. But then that tyranny doth begin a freſhe. Are wée dead? we muſt firſt pay for the buriall before we can be buried. The panims had at y^• leaſt common churchyards for to bury in, for y^• poore mean people which did coſt them nothing. The buryall ſolde.But among the Chriſtians, in many places it is not onelyonly lawfull that the poore dead carkas ſhould bée couered wyth earth, except he doe firſt buy the place and length and bredth of the grounde in which he would be buryed. And according to the ſumme thou gyueſt, the place ſhalbe accordingly Grego. in Reg. Iann. …. 1. …a….either little or great. If thou wilt pay a great deale it ſhalbe p. 44lawfull for thée to rotte by the high Aulter. If thou doe …. 2. Qu…ſta. Ib. d. …ro in Gene… 4. poſt. quā. & …. Tu…a. In eccle ſi …o, & ca. precipiendum.Gen 4giuegive but a little, thou ſhalt lye in the rayne wyth the common people. And although men doe offer vntounto them wyllingly money for the buryall, yet they ſhall runne into infainy and ſhame for taking it, and alſo their canons and d… cretalls as it appearethe by the auncient Doctors, doc forbio it expreſly. But they d…e a great deale worſe. For they ſay that it is their duetie and ryght, and compell them to pay it.

Theophilus.

Ephron that heathen and barberous man, offered willingly vntounto Abraham, beeing a ſtraunger and not Ephron & …braham. Gene. 23. b. 10.Gen 23knowen, his field freely, for to bury his wiſ… Sar… in, and it was much adoe euer he would be perſwaded to rece…ue the money that Abraham offered him. But the Chriſtian prieſts doe ſell the buryall in other mens grounde and which belōgeth not to them: yea, & moreouer they h…e out for money, as their owne, that which is common to all. I would gladly that they were at the leaſt ſo honeſt men, as the Scribes Math 27. a. … Act. 1. c. 18Matt 27Acts 1and Phariſes; Biſhops and Prieſtes of Hieruſalem, who bought wyth the money, that Iudas gaue, them againe, a fielde and poſſeſſion for to bury the poore ſtraungers, in …lood wheroff our Prieſtes do ſell the ground to their next neighbours.

Hillarius.

I aſſure you without lying in any one worde, that there was in the citie of O…be a poore Taylor, named A true hiſtory of our tyme.Gaſpard. I thincke you knowe him. Who was ſo poore that he had much adoe to liue and who had ſo many peeces and patches in his cloake as there bée dayes in the yeare. It was ſo péeced and patched with ſo many péeces one vponupon an other that it was rather lyke vntounto a brigantine, then a coate. His wife brought him foorth a childe that was Our lady of Lauſanna & hir miracles.borne dead: hée carryed it vntounto our Lady of Lauſanna, who dyd many goodly m…racles: who rayſed to lyfe thoſe lyttle children that were borne dead, and after they muſt incontinently bury them. For after that ſhe hath rayſed th…m to lyfe, they coſte their parentes no more to nouryſhe. That was a reſurrection altogether differinge from Falſe miraclesthat of Ieſus Chriſt, and of thoſe whome he hath raiſed, who did ſpeake, walke, eate and drincke after their reſurrection, Iohn. 11. e. 43. & 12 a. 2 Mar. 5. d. 42 Luc. 7. c 15 Act. 9. g 40 Act. 20. b. 9John 11Mark 5Luke 7Acts 9Acts 20as it appeared in Lazarus the brother of Martha, and of Mary: Alſo in the daughter of Iarus, alſo in the ſonne of the widdowe of Naim, alſo of Doreas raiſed by S. Peter. And Eutieus by Sainct Paul. When the childe had bene a little time before the Idoll, he ſtoode vp as the others did, and the miracle was done when it pleaſed the olde woman that kept it. For there were alſo meanes to haſte the The olde vvomen that doe keepe the children that bee borne dead.miracles. For when any did giuegive a large drincking penny to the olde woman ſhe might the cléerer or better knowe when the childe chaunged colour or when hée breathed or wagged. And that is ſoone found out as well there, as at our Lady of grace of Geneua, of thoſe olde women who durſt ſay vntounto ſome y^• hauehave brought of thoſe children, whē they will not giuegive them to drincke as they would, nor giuegive them that they demaund: The Diuell of miracle that you ſhall hauehave thrée dayes. Thoſe are yet liuing who hearde it, who can witneſſe the truth. Wherefore I doe conclude, that the olde woman doth the miracles and not our Lady.

Thomas.

And hath that poore man Gaſpard quenched their thirſt?

Hillarius.

I kmow not what he did. I thinke that when ſhe ſawe him ſo beggerly, that ſhe had ſome pittie. But héerein ſtoode the queſtion that when the childe that was raiſed muſt bée buryed, then had he ſomewhat to doe. For he muſt pay foure or fiue grotes for the buryall: and I beléeue that he had not foure farthinges for to paye his charge and expence. Neuertheleſſe he could neuer agrée with the Prieſtes, but was conſtrained to carry his childe to Orbe, or otherwiſe he muſt bury him in the rawe earth. For hée coulde neuer hauehave one foote of ſodden earth.

Thomas.

What doe you call ſodden earth and rawe earth?

Hillarius.

Are you of that country & know not the Ravv earth.language? Doe you not know y^• our prieſts do call cōmonly raw earth that which is out of the churchyard, & which hath not ben bleſſed & conſecrated, y^• is to wéet charmed by them, p. 45as the ſame of their Church. If it be rawe I conclude by contraries that the other is ſodden.

Thomas.

And when he was at Orbe, did he finde the Prieſtes more pitifull then at Lauſannia?

Hillarius.

God knoweth howe that poore man was ſifted and tried. They did thinke to eate him aliue with his childe, & compelled him to carrie him to Lauſannia, or at the leaſt would not ſuffer him to bury him in the Churchyarde: neuertheleſſe hee buried him. But I knowe not whether it were in the rawe ground or ſodden.

Thomas.

Beholde a greate rigour and crueltie ſhewed vntounto a little infant.

Hillarius.

I doe thinke that Apuli. li. 6. Aſini aur.if that tyme had continued any long ſpace we ſhould hauehave béene conſtrayned not to dye, for want of burying. It is a marueylous caſe that that poore little Infant had ſo much Et ſi ſorte p…ae manu non fuerit n…mo expirate pauperem patiotur.a doe to finde one little corner or angle in the earth, for to be buried in, and that the earth was not greate ynough for him. We may very well ſay that of our Prieſts which Phocion. ſaide of the Athemans a little before his death. Phocion Plut. in Phocion.When they had condemned him to dye (bicauſe he was too honeſt a man for them, nor they were not worthy to hauehave him among them) he muſt drincke of the hemlocke. For The poyſon of the Athenians.the Athenians had that cuſtome to make thoſe that were founde faultie to drinke that poyſon, and to put them to death after that ſort. After that all the other that were in the priſon with him, had dronken, and that there was none but he alone left, bicauſe that all the other had conſumed the poyſon that did drinke firſt, the hangman ſaide that hée will not giuegive it him vnleſſe one woulde giuegive him twelue Death bought.drachines of ſiluer. For bicauſe that an ownce of the poyſon was ſold for ſo much. Phocion then pleading with the hangman that his death might not be prolonged, and that the ſame ſhould not let or hinder him to die, called vntounto him a certeine friende of his, and ſaid vntounto him: Sith that it is not lawfull to dye at Athens frely but that it will coſt money, and that I muſt bye death, I pray thée deliuer money to this hangman, and giuegive him the price hée demaundeth, leaſt that for want of money I ſhould tarry any longer before I dye. We may ſay as much of the Chriſtians, and that y^• Chriſtianitie is ſo much contributary, that one cannot onelyonly hauehave the death and the buriall freely, but that we muſt pay a rewarde. There was alſo among the Panims The cuſtome of the dead & the ſ…ry money of Charon.a certeine cuſtome that the dead muſt pay. And therfore when any man dyed they did put into his mouthe an halfe penny for to paye for his paſſage and cuſtome vntounto Charon the Ferryman of Hell for to ſerry the ſoules ouer the riuers that were there to paſſe ouer.

Thomas.

That Naulum O…aluswas very good cheape: But I do thinke that there paſſed many together at once. For the ſoules are not very hea…y.

Hillarius.

According to the bodies from which they came out.

Thomas.

And if they had not wherewith to pay, ſhould they be conſtrayned to retourne to lyue againe, and to continue and abide heere for want of money?

Hillarius.

They had that opinion that they ſhould continue in great torment, if they coulde not paſſe.

For they could not be purged of their ſinnes, nor enter into the fields Eliſeas with the bleſſed, but that they muſt firſte paſſe the riuer: As men hauehave made vsus to beleeue of the ſoules who hauehave not ended their penaunce. They doe alſo beleeue that if their bodyes be not honeſtly buryed according to their eſtate and degrée, they cannot paſſe in an hundreth yeares, but muſt be wandring héere and there, vntill ſuch time as their bodyes be buryed, or vntill the terme of an hundreth yeares, which was aſſigned vntounto them for their payne and puniſhment, be expired: the which things the Poet hath compriſed altogether in one ſelfe place by his verſes of which I wil recite vntounto you one parte of thoſe that agree beſt to our matter.

He ſpeaketh in that place of the things that A…neas hath ſéene, béeing deſcended into Hell with Sibilla, the which afterwardes hée expoundeth and ſheweth playnely wh…t they ſignifie. He firſt deſcribeth that which they hauehave ſéene there practiſed, ſaying.

p. 46HEere now the way doth lead to Lymbo lake and filthy ſtoud,Ver. A…ne. 6.

Whoſe chānell choked is, with troublous groūds of miry mud.

And belching boyles a ſand, vvhichwhich to the bakes it throws frō deeps,

A dredfull ferriman that ſtreme, vvith viſage lothſom keepes.

In tartred vvretched weede, and Charon he by name doth hight

His hoary buſh and bearde, both ouergrovvue & foule vndight.,

With ſkowling ſteming eyes, & from his ſhoulders down his loyns,

His filthy mantell hangs, whom ſluttiſh knot vncomly ioyns.

Himſelfe vvith pyked poale his boat doth guyde, & bears a charge,

Tranſporting ſtill the ſoules, in ruſty duſty canckred barge.

Well aged novv, but ſappy ſtrength he keepes of greener yeares,

To this place al the rout doth dravv thēſelues with louring cheeres,

By nombers great, both men and vvomen dead, nor long delayde,

With Princes preaſed boyes and girles, that wedlocke neuer ſayde.

And ſlouring youth, that in their parents time were laid in ground,

And all that lyfe had borne, about that banke they cluſtered round,

As thicke as leaues of trees among the vvoods in vvynter vvinde.

When firſt to ground they fal, or lyke as foules of vvater kinde.

Aſſembling flock themſelues, when yere of froſt hath firſt begunne,

And ouer S…s they ſeeke in vvarmer lands to take the Sunne.

They ſtood, and crauing cride, that firſt tranſport they might before,

And ſtretching held their hands deſiring much the further ſhore.

The churliſh ferruman, novv theſe novv thoſe by courſe receiues,

And ſome dovvn thruſting throvves, & from the ſande reſtraining

Aeneas then for of this great tumult he merua…lde ſore,) vveiues.

O virgin tell (… he) vvhat meanes this buſie great vprore?

What ſeeke they thus? vvhy to this vvater banke rome they ſo faſt?

Wherefore be theſe reiect? and yonder thoſe their courſe hath paſt?

And ſome vvith ores I ſee are ſ…veeping yet this channeell blevve,

Than ſhortly thus to him dame Sibly ſpake that Prophet trevve.

O great Anchiſes ſonne, vndoubted childe of Gods in bliſſe,

Now Lymbo lake thou …eeſt, infernall poole this water is.

Cocitus cald it is, and Stygies more the name doth beare,

By vvhichwhich the Gods themſelues, ſo ſore afraid bene for to ſvveare.

This preaſe that here thou ſeeſt, ben people dead not layd in graue,

A piteous rable poore, that no releaſe nor comfort hauehave.

This boateman Charon is, & thoſe vvhom novv this vvater beares,

Are bodyes put in ground, vvith vvorſhip due of vveping teares.

Nor from theſe fearefull bankes nor …ers hoaree they paſſage get,

Till vnderunder earth in graues their bodyes bones at reſt are ſet.

A hūdreth years they vvalke, & roūd about theſe ſhores they houe

And then at laſt full glad, to further pooles they do remoue.

There are yet at this day ſome who do not much differ from that opinion.

Thomas.

I knowe not what they doe in The prayer of thoſe that are depriued from …riall. Rer…c. ſperg. Ser…o dominic. 24 poſt Trinita. … all Ap…li. li. 6. Aſin a…r. …rgo inter mortuos anaritia V…i…: ne… C…aron ilie ditis, & pater tantus Deus quiequam gratuito facit? & pauper mortens debat viaticum quarere. The Milanois.other places, but in our citie when any is dead, & that they doe bring him to bée buried, he muſt bring with him his trentall. For aſſoone as the deade corpes is come into the Church, they doe lay ten lyardes vppon his breaſt, whiche is thirtie deneeres in valewe, the which the Curate or vycar goeth incontinently to take vp.

Hillarius.

That is n y^• honour of the thirty pence as I thinke which Iudas ſold Ieſus Chriſt.

Thomas.

I knowe not whether they had a regard to that, but you hauehave made me to thinke that the ſame was to pay the feriage. Wherefore I would at the leaſt wiſe that if the Prieſtes will not ſuffer vsus to paſſe fréely, that our cuſtome might be as cheape as was that of the Panims.

Hillarius.

The Milanois hauehave yet at this day that cuſtome, that they doe put a péece of Siluer in the hand of him that is dead, but he carrieth it with him, and doeth not giuegive it vntounto the Prieſtes. Ʋppon which I hauehave heard recited an excellent hiſtorie which is written in the cronicles of Milanois, verie proper, for to ſhewe vntounto our Prieſtes that they ought to ſuffer the dead to reſt, without demaunding any thing more of them. For they are no more in their owne ground nor countrie: wherefore they ought no more to be tributaries. And may very well thinke that they ought not to hauehave any greate ſtore of money with them in theſe baſe and lowe territories, for as much as alreadie long time agone they hauehave taken all that that they could: & which is more, they did well know that they hauehave taken away nothing with them. For euen as they Ioh 1. d. 21 …c. …. 5 c 14 … o. b. 7 Valer. Max. li. 2 …a. 1. de iuſt aut.John 1came all naked into the worlde, ſo ſhall they returne againe all naked: Except peraduenture our Prieſtes bee of the opinion of the auncient Galles and Frenchmen who do thinke that in the other worlde men doe handle money as they doe in this: & therefore they do lende the one to the other money vntounto vſurie, to pay it below after their death. But I greatly feare that our Prieſtes do not ſo much beléeue of the unmortalitie of the ſoules, as thoſe there, and p. 47that they had rather borrow vppon that compte, then to lende. But let vsus come vntounto our hiſtory. In the time that Gothes Aduenturers To ſpoyle the dead, and to pil the naked A true hiſtoriethe Barbarians and Gothes did inhabite Italy, and Lumbardy, and did vſe great extorcions vntounto the poore people, (as aduenturers and Souldiers hauehave accuſtomed to doe: who after that they hauehave gotten all the ſpoyle, yet they will pill the naked and ſpoyle the dead. And when they hauehave taken all, inſomuch that there is nothing left, yet they would that men ſhould giuegive them more, and doe torment the poore people, for to compell them to tell wher they hauehave hid vp their money, although they hauehave none.) Among the reſt there was an honeſt widdowe and of a riche houſe, Blondu…who knewe not what to doe, hir houſe and all hir goodes were already ſacked and pilled, that there was no more to take, and yet neuertheleſſe the Souldiers did gréeue and threaten hir that ſhée had more money. Whileſt that ſhée was in that perplexitie, one of hir children came vntounto hir and ſayd: You doe remember mother that when my father dyed, one did put a ducat in his hande? let vsus go fetche it and giuegive it to the Souldiers, to the ende that they would let vsus hauehave a lyttle peace and reſt. The poore woman beléeued the counſaile of hir ſonne, and for to hauehave peace with thoſe théeues was conſtrained to open the Tombe wherein hir huſband was layde with other dead bodyes and tooke away that ducat from him for to giuegive it vntounto them. The ſame béeing come vntounto the Captaynes eare: for the Soldiers were preſent, who ſaw eueryevery thing and declared it vntounto him. And therefore incontinently as he vnderſtoode theroff, he ſayd vntounto his people: Let vsus depart hence, and let vsus not torment them any more: For there is no more money, ſith that they hauehave bene conſtrayned to ſéeke it with y^• dead.

Thomas.

Truely that might bée very well called to take tribute of the deade.

Hillarius.

I would gladly that our prieſtes and Monkes had ſuch a iudgement, and that they had aſmuch pittie on the poore people, & not to compel them any longer to pay trybute for the dead, when they ſée that they hauehave woorke vnough to fynde money to buye bread for to giuegive meate vntounto thoſe that be alyue. Mée thinketh that they ought to content themſelues for that they hauehave pilled the world ſo long time, when they ſée y^• it is eaten euen to the bones. For how many poore people are there, that ſhal be conſtrayned to go and dig the dead out of their graues, if they did know any that had money, for to delyuer themſelues from the hands of ſuch aduenturers? But which is worſe, in ſtéede to content themſelues in ſo pillyng the poore people vntill this preſent time, if there bée any that ſpeaketh one onelyonly word againſte their pillyngs and extorcions, and which refuſeth to pay tribute for the quicke and the deade, they will condempne them immediately to the fire, as Heritickes. We doe call the Scythians barbarous people, and eſtéeme them very cruell, eſpecially the Eſſedonians and Maſſagetes, who doe eate theire fathers and mothers and their parents and friendes, in ſtéede to burye them. The Eſſedonians hauehave a cuſtome (as the Hiſtoriographers doe witneſſe) to ſinge after their parents, and after that their kinſfolke and neighbours are aſſembled together, they doe eate the fleſh of the dead bodyes, mingled with the fleſhe of beaſtes. The lyke hauehave they written of the Maſſagetes who were alſo Scythians. I hauehave thoughte that manner of doing to be meruaylous ſtraunge, and would not beléeue it that ther wer people vponupon the earth ſo inhumaine, who had not great horrour and feare to eate the fleſh of men. But when I conſider & way the doings of our Prieſtes, I finde the Scythians to be very humaine in compariſon of them. For they are not contēt to eate the dead onelyonly, but they eate both the quicke & the dead: & not béeing content with y^• do alſo eate with them their wyues, children, parents & friends with all their cheuances & ſubſtance: & yet they cannot be ſuffiſed & ſatiſfied. They make The Prieſtes are the graues of men and of Ieſus Chriſt. Stella clericorum O ſaccrdos cor… pu… tut…m efficitur quotidic ſepulchrū Chriſti.of their bodyes y^• ſepulchers of the poore people whom they do englut and deuoure, for to bury them more preciouſly in their bowels. But you muſt not be abaſhed if they make of their bodies the ſepulchers of the poore people, as the Scythians did of their parents & friends, ſith that they ſay that p. 48they are made dayly the ſepulcher of Ieſus Chriſt, bicauſe they doe eate him dayly, and bury him in their bodyes and entrayles. The poore people hauehave then no iuſt occaſion to complayne of their crueltie. For they doe vntounto them no worſe then vntounto their God, if their doctrine be true, but doe bury them as preciouſly & honeſtly. And hée that will not beléeue me, let him read their booke which is intituled Stella Clericorum: and he ſhall ſée whether I lye or no: Stella clericorum Mundi precium proiieitur in ſterquilinium id eſt in o… immundi ſacerdotis.but he ſhall there finde rather worſe. For it is there written, ſith that the Prieſte is the ſepulcher of Ieſus Chriſte, that if he doe preſume to take the body of Ieſus with his polluted mouth, he doth worſe then if he threwe it in the durte or mire: But which is more, he caſteth it into a priuie. Iudge therefore Euſebius, whether that good God whom they hauehave forged, be honeſtly lodged, and whether he hauehave not a tombe and ſepulcher very precious and according to his dignitie.

Euſebius.

If there are ſome wicked Prieſts who did vnreuerently handle Ieſus Chriſt, and who did diſhonour their office, muſt ye therfore deſpiſe the eſtate, which is ſo worthy and excellent, and blaſpheame Ieſus Chriſt in ſuch ſorte?

Hillarius.

When did you euer heare vsus blaſpheme Ieſus Chriſt, & ſpeake vnreuerently of god? do you thinke ther is no differēce betwene Ieſus chriſt the true ſauiour of y^• world. As for me I finde as much difference, as is betwen y^• true God of Iſrael & the gods of the The true God and that of the Prieſtes.Babilonians and other Idolaters. Wherfore if you will accuſe me of blaſphemy, when I will not receiue thoſe newe gods, and that I ſpeake in ſuch ſort, you ſhall be alſo compelled to accuſe the Prophets of the ſame crime, when they doe ſo often mocke at the ſtrange gods. But wherefore are you not rather offended with them, then with mée, who hauehave not inuēted any thing but do ſpeake only after them? To what purpoſe doe they call the Prieſtes the Sepulcher The Sepulchre of Ieſus Chriſt Act. 1. a. 2 Rom 6. b. 9Acts 1Rom 6of Ieſus Chriſt? Is not Ieſus Chriſt riſen agayne and aſcended into heauen? doth not the Apoſtle ſay. Chriſt once raiſed from death dyeth no more. For as much then as Ieſus Chriſt liueth eternally at y^• right hand of god his father what needeth he of a ſep…lohre, eſpecially of ſuch as theſe are? When he dyed for our ſinnes he had his ſepulchre in Hieruſalem, in which Ioſeph of Aramathia and Nicodemus Mat. 2…. g. …7 Mar. 15. d. 42 Luc. 23. g 50 Iohn. 19 g. 35Matt 2Mark 15Luke 23John 19dyd bury him in. They dyd not as the Scithians, eate him fleſhe and bones and bury him in their bellyes and entrayles. But in a goodly new ſepulchre, hewen in ſtone. The prieſtes then camib… ſaye that they are that ſepulchre in which Ieſus Chriſt was put, and out of which he roſe againe. Wherefore if they be the ſepulchres of Ieſus Chriſt, it muſt be that he is dead ſithence, and that he was buryed in theyr bellyes. For I cannot vnderſtande how he could be buryed, if they hauehave not eaten him, as the Scithians dyd eate theyr parents and friends. And if you doe thinke that I tell you a thing that is ſtrange, conſider and marke well the woords that the Apoſtle hath wrytten to the Hebrewes. The ſacrifice of Ieſu Chriſt Heb. 7. d. 27. & 9. c. 12Heb 7He witneſſeth that Ieſus Chriſt was once offered, and he ſhalbe no more Afterward telleth the cauſe. For if he muſt be often offered he muſt dye often, ſith that there is no ſacrifice without effuſion of bloud. Yet the prieſtes ſay that they doe offer and ſacrifice really eueryevery day Ieſus Chriſt; it followeth neceſſarily, y^• either they do put him to death, & that he dyeth agayne, or els y^• the holy Apoſtle is an euil Logicioner, & that he concludeth euilly, & knoweth not the rules and lawes of his Silogiſmes and conſequences. If it be ſo the Prieſtes may well be called the Sepulchers of Ieſus Chriſt, but not of the true Ieſus Chriſt whom Saint Stephen Marc. 16. d. 19 Luc. 24. g. 51 Act. 1. b. 9Mark 16Luke 24Acts 1did ſée at the righte hande of God, who as the Apoſtle witneſſeth, dyeth no more: vntounto whome I giuegive more credite, then vntounto all the Prieſts and Monkes which euer were or ſhall be. And therefore eyther it muſt bée that they hauehave forged a newe Ieſus Chriſt, that dyeth and riſeth agayne eueryevery day and as often as they liſt, and that they are all lyers: or els that the Apoſtle hath written againſt the truth, the which is impoſſible. Wherefore it followeth, that the firſt part of my propoſition is true.

Euſebius.

Doe you not beléeue that the Prieſtes hauehave power to conſecrate the body and bloude of Ieſus, and that p. 49they eate it fleſh and bones, as groſe and as bigge as he was To eate Ieſus Chriſt.on the croſſe?

Hillarius.

I doe aſke you an other queſtion, whē they hauehave eaten the fleſh & the bones, what do thy with the ſkinne? And how they could dine vponupon Chriſtmas day, after that they hauehave eatē him thrée times. For me thincketh they ſhould hauehave their bellies too ful & ſtrouted. Alſo wherefore De conſecra diſtic. 2. in gloſ. cap. nee Moyſes. Lib. de ſacram. Ioan chanoiſ. Vtrum Chriſtus. comederit ſeipſ…o in die coenae. Reſpondet quod ſic. Vt communiter tenent Docto. res. Vnde verſus. Re… ſedet in …oene turba …inetus duodena. Se tenet in manibus, ſe cibat ipſe cibus.doe you not demaund of me this queſtion which is alſo very cōmon among your deuines? To weet whether Ieſus Chriſt did eate himſelfe?

Thomas.

What reſolution doe they giuegive?

Hillarius.

That he did, you may thereby know what reaſon there is in their doctrine. Will you hauehave a more greater abſurdite? We do eate his fleſh ſpiritually for to hauehave life: But he who is the life, what néede hath he to eat himſelfe? And if Ieſus Chriſt did eat himſelfe, it muſt be that he hath two bodies: the one which eateth, and the other which was eaten. O Lord God, what dreams are theſe? But if your Prieſts do eat the fleſh and the bones, they are worſe then the Scithians. For they were content with y^• fleſh of man, without eating the bones. Neuertheleſſe to the ende that you do not thincke that I will gainſay the word of Ieſus Chriſt, and that I am ſome Caparnaite, who is offended with the preachinge that he made, of eating his fleſh and Caparnaites Iohn. 6. f. 55 To eate Ieſus Chriſt three vvaies.John 6drincking his bloud, or as the hearers who did forſake it. I aunſwere that there is thrée wayes to eate the fleſhe and drincke the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt. The true manner the which he would teach vsus by his worde, and that hée would repreſent and frequent in the holy ſupper is ſpirituall The ſpirituall …nanducation Iohn. 6. g. 63John 6and not carnall, as he himſelfe witneſſeth, ſayinge. It is the ſpirite that quickeneth, the fleſhe profiteth nothing. The woordes that I hauehave ſayde are ſpirite and lyfe.

Theophilus.

That is not ment that the fleſhe of Ieſus Chriſt doth not profite any thing the faithful, ſith y^• he himſelfe calleth it the bread which came downe from heauen, without which we cannot hauehave life, nouriſhment, nor ſaluation. But the carnall ſence and vnderſtandinge of hys woordes, and ſuche intelligence as the Cape…naites, and hearers that were offended had, is the fleſhe eaten in ſuch ſorte as they vnderſtande it. For when wée ſhall hauehave the very fleſhe of Ieſus Chriſt in our mouth, and that wée doe craſhe it wyth our téeth, and diſgeſt it in our ſtomack, it profiteth vsus no more then to Iudas to hauehave kiſſed him, and to the hangmen to hauehave touched him, yea, to bée ſprinckled in hys bloude, and to hauehave had his garmentes. For Ieſus Chriſt doth profite nothinge béeing knowen after the fleſh, except he be knowen through fayth, by the whiche hée filleth and ſatiſfieth vsus alſo wyth his fleſhe and bloude. Therefore it is not néedefull that he diſcende from heauen, nor y^• he remoue frō place to place, for to feede vsus in that manner wyth his fleſhe and bloude, The preſence of Ieſus chriſtand for to bée preſent wyth vsus and in the middeſt of vsus. For he dwelleth in our heartes by fayth, and lyueth in vsus, and quickeneth vsus by his holy ſpirit. Wherfore he calleth Ephe. 3. c. 17 Rom. 8. b. 1… The Temple of God. 1. Cor. 6. d. 19 2. Cor. 6. d. 16.Eph 3Rom 81 Cor 62 Cor 6not the faythfull, hys ſepulchre, but the temple of the liuing God. For hée is not deade in the heartes of the faythfull, but lyueth there and the faythfull by hym. Euen as then the ſunne is preſent wyth vsus, althoughe it deſcende not from heauen into the earth, and maketh vsus to féele hys vertue and power, it illuminateth vsus, and through his heate and brightneſſe nouriſheth and quickeneth both man and beaſtes, better then if it were héere in earth with vsus: euen ſo Ieſus Chriſt, that greate ſonne of righteouſneſſe through his diuine power and vertue of his holye ſpirite, doth gyue vntounto our ſoules and bodyes hys fleſh and his bloude, and doth nouriſhe and fill vsus and maketh vsus to feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and paſſion, and of his body and bloude, that hée hath gyuen for vsus, better then if we did eate his fleſh with our téeth and there dyd deuoure and ſwallow it in wyth his bloud in our ſtomacke: inſomuch that there is not a body which is ſo well nouriſhed and fedde wyth bread and wine, that hée eatcth and drincketh, as the faythfull who with a true and liuely faith commeth vntounto him., and receyueth his woorde and communicateth the Sacramentes that he hath ordayned, is p. 50filled and ſatiſfied wyth his fleſh and his bloude. For hée Iohn. 6. d. 31.John 6hath ſayde: he that commeth to mée ſhall not hunger, and he that beléeueth on mée ſhall neuer thurſt. If he that commeth and beléeueth in him ſhall no more hunger nor thurſt, it followeth then that in beléeuing and communicating his Sacramentes, hée hath eaten and dronken and is ſatiſfied.

Hillarius.

That ſufficeth which you hauehave nowe ſpoken off (friend Theophilus) for to proue my meaning. For we hauehave not at this preſent neyther better time nor fitter occaſion for to purſue more fully that matter. But I wil not graunt vntounto thée Euſebius, that the Prieſtes doe eate the fleſhe and drincke the bloude of Ieſus Chriſte after that ſorte. For ſith that they ſéeke his carnall preſence, they depriue themſelues of his ſpiritual preſence, according to the witneſſe of the Apoſtle which ſayth: Wée hauehave an Aulter Heb. 13. c. 10Heb 13whereoff they maye not eate whiche ſerue in the Tabernacle. If thoſe who doe ſerue in the Tabernacle of Moſes, and put yet all their affiaunce in the leuitical Ceremonies and ſacrifices, are ſhutte out and depriued from the true ſacrifice of Ieſus Chriſte, what communion can thoſe hauehave wyth hym, who hauehave altogether ouerthrowen his Sacramentes and Ordinaunces, and hauehave founde out and inuented newe ſacrifices, more intollerable then euer the Iewes vſed? There is an other manner to eate the fleſhe and drincke the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt, the which The carnall manducatiō CapernaitesI cannot graunt vntounto them, y^• is, the carnall eating, as the Caparnaites dyd vnderſtande it, euen as one eateth the fleſhe of the butchery. Ieſus Chriſte whiche is at the ryght hande of God cannot bée eaten after that ſorte.

For hée is the breade of Angels and of the true chyldren of God, and of his ſhéepe and not of Dogges, Wolues, Hogges, Lyons and wilde beaſtes. But I wyll graunte vntounto them the thirde manner to eate Ieſus Chriſt, and The papiſtical manducation.doe confeſſe wyth thée that they doe eate it truelye, reallye, and eſſentiallye, not onelyonly in fleſh and bones, but which is more (leaſt you ſhoulde accompte mée for an hereticke) beſides the fleſh and bones, they doe eate the ſkinne, and breake the bones for to ſucke out the marrowe that is therein, bycauſe they hauehave founde ſuche good taſte in the meate.

Thomas.

If they doe ſo, they doe worſe then the Iewes. For they brake not a bone of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

That was bicauſe that it was neceſſarye that in him ſhould be fulfilled which was figured & repreſented The hones of Ieſus Chriſt are vvhole Iohn. 19. f. 33 The paſcall Lambe. Bxo. 12. 2. 5John 19by the paſcall Lambe, of which they muſt leaue his bones whole. For we cannot hauehave Ieſus Chriſt, but that we muſt hauehave him whole, & his vertue & power cannot be broken by death it ſelfe.

Thomas.

I hauehave not yet very wel vnderſtood you.

Hillarius.

I will declare it vntounto thée by a cléere demonſtration, & by euident arguments. Diddeſt thou not firſt confeſſe vntounto me, that all the true faithfull are the true members of Ieſus Chriſt?

Thomas.

I confeſſe it.

Hillarius.

If they be members of Ieſus Chriſt, they are then his body, of which he is y^• head, as the Apoſtle doth witneſſe in many places.

Thomas.

I doe agrée vntounto you Induction Members of Ieſus Chriſt. 1. Cor. 12. b. 12 Rom. 12. b. 51 Cor 12Rom 12in that.

Hillarius.

Foraſmuch then as the faithfull are the body of Ieſus Chriſt, you will alſo graunt mée, that thoſe which eate the faithfull and poore widowes & orphants, doe eate Ieſus Chriſt. And if you will denie it, I will proue it To perſecute Ieſus Chriſt. Act 9. …. 4Acts 9by that that Ieſus Chriſt ſayd vntounto Saul, ſaying: Saul, Saul, why perſecuteſt thou me? In the ſame manner then as Ieſus Chriſt doth complaine himſelfe to be perſecuted whē his members are: So may I ſay, without digreſſinge from the Scripture, that thoſe eate Ieſus Chriſt that do eat his members.

Thomas.

But you hauehave not yet proued, that the Prieſts doe eate the members of Ieſus Chriſt.

Hillarius.

It hath ben alredy proued by the things that were ſpoken before. For hauehave I not already tolde thée, how they doo eate both the quicke & dead? But leaſt thou ſhouldeſt thincke that I ſpeake without the Scripture, beholde his witneſſe. What doe you vnderſtande by that rebuke and checke that God did vntounto the tyrants and enemies of his people, when he complained that they denoured Iacob, p. 51To eate Iacob.and his people, as a morſell of bread.Pſa. 79. b. 7 Pſa. 53. a. 5 Pſa. 14. a. 4Ps 79Ps 53Ps 14

Thomas.

The places doe declare inough of themſelues. For he complaineth that his enemies are come into his enheritage, and hauehave deſtroyed his people, which is ſignified by Iacob, of whom did procéede & come the twelue tribes of Iſrael. That is a manner of ſpeaking common in all tongues. Euen ſo doe we ſaye that a man is burned when his houſe is burned, alſo wée do call the great théeues, couetous perſons, Metonimia. Virg. Aene. 2 Vealegon ardet. Deuourers.tyrantes, rauiſhers and vſurers the conſumers and deuourers of the poore people, widowes and Fatherleſſe children, not that they eaſe and deuoure mans fleſh, but bicauſe they deſtroy and deuoure their ſubſtaunce, and many times cauſe them to dye for very pouertie and lacke.

Hillarius.

You hauehave alredy concluded y^• which I would hauehave concluded. We cannot denie, but that the Prieſts and Moonkes doe deuoure all the ſubſtance of the poore Chriſtian Gods heritage. 1. Pet. 5. a. 31 Pet 5people, which is the true heritage of God, and the true Iacob whome they hauehave conſumed, waſted, and deuoured more cruelly then the Babilonians did vntounto the Iſraelites. For to make you better to vnderſtande the effect & ſumine of our diſputation, I will comprehend it in a little ſillogyſme Sillogiſmus in darii.and playne concluſion. Whoſoeuer eateth the poore, eateth the body of Chriſt. The Prieſtes doe eate the poore: wherefore it followeth infallibly that they eate the body of Ieſus Chriſt. The ſillogiſme is good, for it is in his inode and dialecticall and logicall figure. It néedeth no more for to proue the premiſſes and the Antecedent. For you hauehave already graunted it vntounto me by your aunſweres. You doe then ſée now friend Euſebius, that I am not an heretick, noither after God nor after the Pope. For I doe confeſſe y^• true and ſpirituall manducation of the body of Ieſus Chriſt, & the very papiſticall manducation, which is more truer then it is in the bookes of your Doctors. I doe then thinck that you ought to content your ſelues with vsus, & that the Pope ought not to purſue vsus to the fire, & to ſuch cruell death, for that Article. For I beléeue y^• there is none of all thoſe whō you doe condemne for hereticks, who are not ready to confeſſe as muche as I. And if you will compell them further, me thinckes you doe them wronge. For what can they confeſſe any more, without ſpeakinge againſte the truth? Nowe it reſteth that I doe proue howe they doe To eate the ſkinne and the bones.eat the ſkinne and breake the bones for to hauehave the marrowe. Wherefore I will take for my warrant and aduocate in this cauſe chiefly Michea amonge the Prophetes, who ſpeakinge both of them and of their like, accuſeth them after this manner, ſayinge. Ye hate the good and louelove Mich. 3. 2. 2.Mic 3:2the euill: ye plucke off mens ſkinnes and fleſhe from their bones: ye eate the fleſhe of my people, and flaye off their ſkinne: ye breake their bones, ye choppe them in péeces as it were into a Cauldron, and as fleſh into a Pot. And as concerning the Prophetes that deceiue my people, thus the Lorde ſaith againſte them: When they hauehave anye thinge to bite vponupon, then they preache that all ſhall bée well: But if a man putte not ſome thinge into theyre A ſop in the throte.mouthes, they preache of warre againſt him. I doe neuer read thoſe wordes of Micheah, conſideringe the auarice and rapacite of our falſe teachers and ſhepheards, Shepheards feeding themſelues.who doe feede themſelues, not the Lordes flocke, but that mée thinckes I ſée before mine eyes that greate Bze. 34. 2. 2. Serberus the porter of hell.and hidious Cerberus the dogge and porter of Hell, with his thrée heades, whiche hée hath for to deuoure, eate, and ſwallowe vp all that commeth vntounto hym, if one doe not caſt a ſop into his mouth, euen as Aeneas and Sibyle did, accordinge to Virgiles diſcription, who hathe ſette out his rage and vnſatiable madneſſe, ſpeakinge after this ſort.

There Cerberus, infernall hound, with throates vvide open three,Vir Aene. 6.

Doth havvle vvith barking noiſe, at Lymbo mouth full huge to ſee.

Whoſe neck vvhen Sibly ſavve vvith ſtartling ſnakes to ſwelling fixt,

A ſop of bread vvith ſleepy ſeedes and Honny ſweete commixt.

Againſt his throat ſhe threw, he gaping wide his threefolde iawes,

All hungry caught that gub, & couching ſtraite with ſtretched paws.

He bowed his boiſtrous backe, and on the ground himſelfe he ſpred,

Encombring all the caue, and groueling lay with ſlombry head.

p. 52We hauehave a great number of ſuch dogs, who although Dūme dogs and cryers.they are mute for to preach the word of God, for to crye againſt the abuſes, vices and offences, for to chaſe and driue away the Wolues from the folde & to defend the ſhéepe, neuertheleſſe are not mute, but great cryers againſt the true ſeruaunts of God who ceaſe not to barke, bite & deuoure, except for to hauehave them quiet, one do caſt them ſome bone or ſop in their mouth. Now thincke if that infernall monſter & mad dog, who hath but thrée heads and one belly, be ſo hungry and inſatiable, what ought we to eſtéeme of ſo many Cerberus, and of ſo many gluttons who hauehave ſo many heads & bellies, which are as the great goulfes of the ſea. It is not then w^tout cauſe that y^• prophets comparing ſuch ſhepherds to thoſe great maſties & dumme dogs, ſhameleſſe idle knaues Eſa. 56. c. 11Isa 56and inſatiable, & vntounto Lyons & rauening Wolues who hauehave eaten nothing vntil Euening, who do flay the ſkinne, eat the fleſh, afterwards doe breake the hones and caſt them into the pot for to eate and deuoure them, and yet cannot bée ſatiſfied and filled. Wherefore I cannot beléeue but that Salomon by the ſpirite of GOD hath foreſéene and ſpake of that generation, and that hée minded to paynte Prouer. 30. b. 14.Prov 30it out vntounto vsus, when he ſayde: There are a people whoſe téeth are ſwoordes, and wyth their chaffe bones they conſume & deuoure the ſimple of the earth, and the poore from amonge men. The Horſeléech hath two daughters, the The daughters of the horſelech. Horat in art. Poet.one is called fetche hether, and the other bringe hether.

Theophilus.

Hée ſayeth not wythout cauſe that ſhée Non miſſura cutē niſi plena cruoris hirudo. The inſatiable thinges. Pro. 30. b. 16Prov 30hath two daughters. For ſhée hath two throates, and draweth the bloude from one ſide to the other. But I am not abaſhed, but of that that when hée nombreth the thinges that are not ſatiſfied he hath alſo added thoſe which are the moſt inſatiable of all. He ſayth, that there be thrée things that are neuer ſatiſfied, and the fourth ſayth neuer hoe. That is to ſaye, hell, a womans wombe, and the earth hathe neuer water inoughe, as for fire it ſayth neuer hoe. One may very well adde to theſe for the fift.

Hillarius.

It is no néede. For among theſe foure, they are alredy conteined in two for fault of one. Hath not Salomon The fire inſatiable.ſpoken of the fire, who neuer ſaith hoe. For one cannot finde ſo much as it conſumeth. There was neuer fire, that molted and conſumed ſo much goods, as the fire of their Purgatory & of their kitchin which is of y^• ſame nature. Againe, is not y^• hell compriſed among thoſe inſatiable things? Hell or y^• graue inſatiable.May wée not well ſpeake that of them which Dauid hath written of his enemies? ſaying: their throat is an open ſepulchre. Pſa. 5. c. 10Ps 5And that which Eſay ſpeaketh off, ſaying: hell gapeth and openeth hir mouth meruailous wide. For of all Eſa. 5. 6. 14.Isa 5:6Isa 5:14that they can once lay hand on, nothing euer retourneth againe, no more then from the mouth of hell and graue. But which is worſe the graue conſumeth & deuoureth but the dead bodies: but theſe do deuour both the quick & the dead: And we may very wel ſay y^• theſe are the Harpyes of whom Harpyes. Vir. Aene. 9 Virginei volucrū v…ltus, fodiſsima ventri… Proluuies, vnca que manus, & pallida ſemper. Ora fame. Painted Sepalchres. Mat. 29 b. 14 Mar. 12. d. 39 Luc. 20. g. 47 The ornaments of the painted Sepulc…res.Mark 12Luke 20Virgile maketh mention off. But bicauſe they are faire and goodly ſepulchres, as the Scribes & Phariſes who do neuer ceaſe to crye: Corban, Corban, giuegive, giuegive, offer, offer: and as the daughter of the Horſeléech. Bringe, bringe to the candles of the good Sainct. Bicauſe they are ſo beautifull & polliſhed without, y^• poore world cannot know thē, although they do ſée them deuoure & eate vp widowes houſes before their eies, vnderunder colour of long praiers. For they hauehave thoſe goodly habites of religion, goodly Ornaments, Ceremonies, goodly names & titles, and that goodly appearaunce of holineſſe, which do couer & beautifie thoſe ſepulchres & tombes, in ſuch ſort that men cannot perceiue the filthineſſe & infection that is there hidden and kepte cloſe within, but paſſe ouer it without any aduiſement, as men doe by the Sepulchres.

Theophilus.

They are more open and dyſcouered then néede required. For GOD hathe nowe rayſed vppe a people whome they woulde not hauehave, who hauehave in ſuche ſorte remoued all that filthe and infectyon that it ſtincketh throughoute the whole worlde. p. 53And we muſt not be abaſhed if they call them the Sepulchers Sepulchers of Ieſus Chriſt.of Ieſus Chriſt, and though they doe meruaylouſly ſtincke, ſith that Ieſus Chriſt is altogether deade in them, and to them, and that they hauehave nothing at all. For if Chriſt lyue not in vsus, what other thing can wée bee, but dead carryons, ſtincking and infectious, who doe not onelyonly rotte and conſume themſelues, but doe rotte and conſume with them all other things?

Euſebius.

All of you doe cry out agaynſt the Prieſtes. HaueHave you now all ſayd? It was not inough for Hillarie to ſpeake euill and backebite, but that you muſt ayde and helpe him Theophilus, and meddle alſo as well as hée.

Theophilus.

You neuer ſawe a man that delyteth leſſe The difference betvveene to ſpeake … euill and to ſpeake truth.to ſpeake euill and backebite, and to heare euill ſpeakinge and tales: But truth conſtrayneth mee, and you oughte to vnderſtande, that to ſpeake truth for the health of ones neighbour, is not to ſpeake euill, backebite, and ſlaunder any man. Would to God I coulde ſpeake as much good of them, as of the Apoſtles. For I doe louelove better to praiſe their vertue, charitie and mercy, then to diſpiſe their vices, crueltie, auarice, and rapacitie. But what will you that I ſpeake? If I doe ſée a poore man, who is wandring alone in a forreſt, or woode full of théeues, am not I bounde to giuegive him warning of the daunger he is lyke to fall in?

If I ſay nothing vntounto him, am not I guyltie of his death ſith that I knew the daunger: And if I encourage him to enter, and tell him that there is no daunger, am not I then more culpable and worthy to be taken for a murtherer of my poore brother? But if I doe admoniſh him of the daungers and of the théeues. Doe I wrong vntounto the theenes in callyng them by their name? Shoulde I doe better and according to Gods commaundemet to call them good people for to ſaue their honour, and that I ſhould put my brother into their handes to hauehave them to cutte his throate?

What goodneſſe can I finde in thoſe, who from the greateſt All Papiſticall Prieſtes excō municated,to y^• leaſt are al excommunicated & iudged Simoniacks and Heretickes, vnworthy of all Eccleſiaſticall honour and office? not onelyonly by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures, To take money for y^• ſacramēts & ec…lcſiaſtical offices Gela. Papa. l. quae … Baptiz …dis Item Ca…ſt … Grego. Naziāze c 1. 3 Q…i ſtude: Ambr. de my…te ca. cum ordina…ntur Item can Q…buſdam & pueribut alſo by their owne councells, decrées, and Canons.

For how many Councells, Decrées and Canons be there that doe forbid to demaunde and take, giftes, rewardes, preſents, hire or ſiluer, nor any thing whatſoeuer it bée, for creame, baptiſme, orders, laying on of hands: for y^• earth, nor Sepulture, neyther for Sacraments nor whatſoeuer office is in the Church, vnderunder payne of excommunication, and to be holden and reputed Simoniackes, Heretickes, and Sacriledgers, and depriued and depoſed from theire offices and honours? and not onelyonly they that receiue the money, but alſo thoſe who doe giuegive it for ſuch things.

Thomas.

There ſhall be then by that compte no Chriſtian, who ſhall not be excommunicated. For among the prieſts Papiſts excommunicatedthere is not one but hath receiued money for ſuch thinges, nor among the people but hath diſburſed ſomewhat.

Theophilus.

Therefore you may conſider what communion may be in y^• Popiſh Church. For Saint Peter did Act 8. d. 20Acts 8not only curſe, in the authoritie of God Symon the Sorcerer, of whome Simony and Simoniackes hauehave taken their Simony & Simontack.name, but alſo the money that he offred for to buy the gifte of God withall. Now if Symon for offering y^• money hath receiued ſuch malediction, what ought it to be vppon them that doe cleane contrary to Saynt Peter, who doe not onelyonly receiue but alſo doe compell the poore people to giuegive it them? I doe not héereby meane that the true Euangelycall Prieſts, and true Paſtors of the Church, are not worthy of their nouriſhment and rewarde: But I ſpeake agaynſt Merchaunts in the Churc… 1. Pet. 2. 2 31 Pet 2:2thoſe Merchaunts which are in the Church of God, whom Saynt Peter hath foreſpoken, who hauehave both GOD and the Diuill to ſell, Paradiſe …nd Hell, holy things and prophane things, and which doe exerciſe merchandiſes of all things, and are polluted and d…fil…d with all Simonie Plati in v…ta Leon… pont. 2. Conc…liu…. Elbertinum. Ex cnoci. Telet 11. Ca.and Sacriledges, that they themſelues hauehave bene conſtrayned to condemone them. And he that will not beléeue me, lette him read Platine in the lyues of the Popes, and the decrees of the Councell of Elybertine holden in Spayne, in p. 54the time of Conſtantine: and that of Tholet, holden in the Quiequid. …x …yno. ca. 6. Nuil…s. …x conc. Calc. 1. q. 1. cap. Si quis. Ex conc. Carth. 4. cap Placuit. Emendan. Dictum. Conc…. Tiburienſis. The ſelling of the buriall. Pſal. 24. a. 1. Math. 10. a 8.Ps 24Matt 10yeare. 713: and that of Calcedone: And the 4. of Carthage: And the Councell of Tiburien and Varenſian, who doe condempne namely thoſe that take money for the buryalls, ſaying after this manner: Wherefore doſt thou ſell the earth? Remember that thou art earth, and into the earth ſhalt retourne agayne. For the earthe is not mans, but as (the Pſalmiſt Dauid witneſſeth) the earth is the Lords, and all that therein is: If thou doe ſell the earth, thou ſhalt be holden guyltie of larcenie, as he that attributeth vntounto himſelfe the thing of an other mans. Thou haſt receyued it of God fréely, giuegive it fréely. And bicauſe it is altogether forbidden to all Chriſtians, to ſell the earth vntounto the dead, and to deny vntounto them the graue and burial which is due vntounto them.

Item, we muſt commaunde according to the authoritie Ex con. Vatenſi. cap. Praecipiendum. Grego. in Regiſtro. Ianuarius biſhoppe. Nereida. 13. q. 2. cap. Queſta eſt. Ephron. Gene. 23. b. 10Gen 23of the Canons, that one ſhould not demaunde or receiue any thing for mens burialls, nor for their graues. And hée that would ſée the opinion of Gregorie, lette him reade the Epiſtle, wherein he rebuked Ianuarius Biſhop of Sardinia, for that he aſked money of Ne…eida, a noble woman, for the ſepulture and burying of hir daughter. And for to make him more aſhamed, he propounded vntounto him the example of the Panim Ephron, and the honeſtie that he vſed towards Abraham touching his fielde for the buryall of his wife. What ſhall we ſay friende Euſebius of thoſe poore blynde men, blynded thorow their auarice, who ſo openly ſpeake agaynſt the worde of God, and all Councells and Canons? May not we rebuke and checke them with that, that Tertulian Tertulian Apolog. aduer. Gent. ca. 13. Tributary gods and to be ſold.rebuked the Gentiles and Panims, ſaying: The Gods that are moſt tributaryes and the greateſt gyuers, are to you the moſt holyeſt, but for to ſpeake better, thoſe that are the holyeſt, are the greateſt gyuers and trybutaryes. Their maieſtie is put to ſale and valued and is eſtéemed after the gayne that it bryngeth. Your begging Relygion, goeth about in Tauerns, Shops and Markets, Begging Religion.for to begge. Ye demaunde money for the pauement and bourding of the Temple, for the entring into the Temple and holy places. It is not lawful for to know your Gods without money Tertul. in Apo…duer. Gent a. 42 Begging Gods VntoUnto vvhome vve muſt giuegive.or rewarde, for they are to be ſolde. We cannot ſuffice or hauehave inoughe both for men and for your begging gods, and lette vsus not thinke that we are bounde to giuegive vntounto any other, then vntounto thoſe that aſke it. If Iupiter then will hauehave it, lette him put foorth his hande. For our mercy doth beſtow more goodes throughout all the ſtréete, then your relygion throughout all your Temples. Hée The charity of the auncient Chriſtians.declareth by thoſe woordes that the auncient Chriſtians beſtowed not their goodes in buylding of Temples, ſetting vp of Idolls, and in offring to them ſacrifices, and in féeding of thoſe Caphards & falſe Prophets, and in the meane ſeaſon to ſuffer the poore to periſhe with hunger, about in the ſtréetes: but doe beſtow them in nouriſhing and féeding of thoſe that were among them. Therefore he complayneth in the name of all the Chriſtians, that ſith that they hauehave beſtowed already ſo much goodes for to nouriſhe and féede the poore, they cannot prouide ſufficient to giuegive ſo much vntounto the Idolls and Gods of the Panims, who doe neuer ceaſe to aſke and begge. He thinketh in his iudgement that the Chriſtians hauehave inough to doe to kéepe and prouide for the poore that are among them, without beſtowing ſo much coſt and charge to keepe and prouide for the Gods of the Panims, who are more coſtlye then the poore. What will he then now ſaye if hée did ſée the Prieſtes The tributaries of the Prieſtes.who are called Chriſtians and Lieuetenants of Saint Peter, to gather and receiue tribute of the Gods, of Images, of the quicke and the dead, and to make Gods, and men, the quicke and the deade tributaries, and to compell the poore Chriſtians to maynetayne and keepe ſo rychly theire falſe Gods and Prophets, the bones and the carcaſes of the dead, and to be at ſuch great charge and expences vppon the dead, and in the meane time doe ſuffer the poore members of Ieſus Chriſt and the lyuely Images of God to periſh with hunger. May he not rightly ſay, that all the p. 55Chriſtian Relygion is no other thing now, but a very beggery? And the Gods that are there of the beggers, doe neuer any other thinge but begge, and that the deade d…e ſpende more then thoſe that be alyue.

Hillarius.

Theſe are daungerous beggers. For they Daungerous beggers.are lyke vntounto thoſe luſty and ſtout beggers, who will chide and beate people, when they will not giuegive them that they would hauehave: and ſometimes they doe cutte Merchaunts throates. At the beginning they doe ſéeme but as though they did begge. And therefore they hauehave found out ſo many abuſes, for to make their begging the better worth, and for to ſtill theire ſcrippe the better. Afterwardes in the ende they make men to giuegive by force. But among all their inuentions, they neuer had any that brought them more gayne, then the God Pluto and his furnaces of Purgatorie. God P…uto. The furnaces of Purgatorie AlcumiſtesFor there they doe make the Philoſophicall ſtone, and by thoſe doe impoueriſh all the whole worlde, as the Alcumiſtes deceiue thoſe who do muſe after their furnaces. But theſe are more craftye and ſubtile. For they do enrich themſelues with other mens pouertie, and the Philoſophicall The Philoſophicall ſtone.ſtone is alwayes good for them. And if God would not hauehave had that the fire ſhoulde hauehave begunne in thoſe furnaces, as Theophilus hath ſayd, all the whole worlde would hauehave gone to ruyne, and there woulde nothing hauehave bene lefte.

Thomas.

I hauehave deſired of longe time to vnderſtande, how that fire hath begunne there, by what meanes, and by whom. But you hauehave not yet declared it vntounto me.

Hillarius.

I am content to tell vntounto you. Firſt, that The mouers of ſedition of Purgatorie.that I doe vnderſtande and know, and who hauehave bene the mouers of ſedition, which were the cauſes of that great offence, and afterwardes Theophilus ſhall tell you his aduice, which I doubte not but that it is better then mine. Sithens that Paradiſe and Hell were ſo ſhutte vp, and that there arryued dayly ſuche a greate number of ſoules in Purgatory, and hauehave bene kepte there ſo longe time, there is no doubt, but that it muſt néedes be that the fire was very great, for to kéepe ſuch a roſting and for to warme and make hot the kitchin and for to ſeethe the potte of ſo many Prieſtes and Moonkes, who are diſperſed and ſcattered abreade throughout all Chriſtendome to ſo great a number, there is no Arithmetician, how cunning ſoeuer he be in his A…te, which can caſte or number them. And yet neuertheleſſe all the fire that was in theire kitchin begun of Purgatory. For they, neyther their family (which is not lyttle) doe eate no meate but that which is boyled and ſodden in that fire. For you oughte to vnderſtande, that foraſmuch as the number of y^• ſoules do become very many, and that Purgatory was the better furniſhed, ſo much the more greater did the fire kindle in their kitchin. For the reuenew was very great. Wherfore it muſt néedes be alſo y^• the trayne did encreaſe & augment, and that after Requiem, one ſhould ſing Gaudeamus. And y^• more they did The gaudeamus of the preſ…esſée y^• fire to burn y^• more they did blow it. To be ſhort al wēt by y^• diſſhes. They did caſt the houſe out of the windows. There was no more queſtion but to blow the coale, to reioyce and tryumphe, inſomuch that they themſelues did make the fire.

Thomas.

I doe not yet very well vnderſtande your meaning, except you doe ſpeake more playnly.

Hillarius.

I meane that they are fedde and nouriſhed ſo fatte and bigge about that kitchin, and hauehave inuented ſo many fables and lyes, for to mayntayne and augment that fire, that they hauehave vncouered and bewrayed themſelues: and alſo hauehave done ſuch wicked and moſt execrable things that whether men woulde or no, they hauehave bene conſtrayned to open their eyes, & to know that they were but deceiuers and ſeducers of the people, and that all their doctrine was nothing but fables and lyes, and eſpecially by theire Croyſarde, which hath brought forth Luther in place, who The croyaardswas the firſt that diſcouered their diſceyte.

Theophilus.

It is very true, that that which you ſay hath ſerued for ſome thing. For where Ieſus Chriſt hath Mat. 5. b. 16Matt 5commaunded his Diſciples that their lyght ſhould ſo ſhine before men, that they ſeeing their good workes might be induced p. 56to glorifie God: Thoſe héere hauehave ſo lyghted and kindeled the fire of their Purgatory, that eueryevery one beginneth to ſée the darke places wherein they hauehave put vsus. But that were but a ſmall thing, if God thereby had not ſent from Heauen another fire, more vehement and burning, which The celeſtiall and euangelical fyre Gene. 19. e. 24. Pſa. 103. b. 8 Nomb. 14. d. 18. Exo. 34. a. 7.Gen 19Ps 103Exod 34hath burned and conſumed it altogether.

Thomas.

Did the lyghtening fall vppon it, or the fire and brimſtone that conſumed Sodoma and Gomorra?

Theophilus.

Not yet. For God who is full of compaſſion and mercy, and longe ſuffering, will not ſodainly vſe ſuch rigor and vengeaunce. And therefore the fire that he hath ſent is more for to illuminate and make hotte, then for to burne and couſume. But it is of ſuch a nature and force that it draweth after it the fire of the wrath and indignation of God, vponupon thoſe which by the ſame will not be illuminated. That is it of which Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh off, ſaying: I am come to put Luc. 12. g. 49.Luke 12fire on the earth: and what is my deſire, but that it be kindeled. And for to declare better what is the vertue of that fire, and what fire he meaneth, he hath ſent his holy Ghoſt vntounto his Apoſtles and Diſciples, lyke a tongue of fire, Act. 2. a. 3 Mat. 3. c. 11 Act. 1. a 5 The true fire of purgatory.Acts 2Matt 3Acts 1witneſſing thereby, that it is hée, of whome Iohn Baptiſt hath ſpoken, ſaying: who ſhall baptize you with the holy Ghoſt and with fire. That is a fire that hath an other vertue, then to purge the purſes of the poore ſinners. For it purgeth in deede the ſoules, the which none other fire can doe. And therefore he hath ſent his Apoſtles for to carry Mat. 28. d. 19. Mar. 16. c. 15 Luc. 24. c. 36 Iohn. 20. a. 22 Eſa. 2. c. 25Matt 28Mark 16Luke 24John 20Isa 2that fire, and to ſette on fire all the world, that thorow the ſame all ſinnes, filthineſſe, and iniquities ſhould be purged in his Church as in a furnace, & that all that which was falſe mettall, ſhould be ſo tryed and melted that nothinge ſhould remayne but pure gold: and that all the relicks of 2. Cor. 5. d. 17. Heb. 1. a. 3 1. Cor. 5. b. 7 Act. 15. b. 9 The purgatotory of Ieſus Chriſt & that of the Pope.2 Cor 5Heb 11 Cor 5Acts 15the olde Adam ſhould be burned and conſumed, in ſuche ſorte that all the true children of God ſhould be made new creatures throughe the power and vertue of Ieſus Chriſt, who alone hath made the purgation of our ſinnes, puryfying our hearts through fayth, waſhing and making them cleane with his precious bloude.

Hillarius.

Behold a Purgatorye much differing from the other. For in the other they doe nothing without money, but in this heere we muſt not hauehave any.

Theophilus.

But he that will giuegive and offer vntounto it is accurſed of God, and ſent to hell fire, as it appeareth by the reprehenſion that Saint Peter did ſo rigorouſly vntounto Symon the Sorcerer, curſing both him and his money that Act s. d 10he offered.

Hillarus.

I am not abaſhed, althoughe hée were a begger. For he was very rigorous and cruell vntounto thoſe that did bring him money. Thoſe that ſay they are his ſucceſſours hauehave not done the lyke: But cleane contrary, that is, that he that will be beſt welcome vntounto them, Exo. 13. b. 15 Deut. 10. d. 16Exod 13Deut 10muſt not come emptie handed. For it is wrttten: Thou ſhalt not appeare before the Lord emptie. They hauehave well aduiſed on thoſe places that ſpeake of bringing, for to make them ſerue for their gayne and profite: although that they doe vnderſtande nothing of them. And therefore they ſay vntounto thoſe that doe bring any thing vntounto them: Intra in gaudium Domini tui: Enter into the ioye of thy Lord. Centuplum accipies, & vitam aeternam poſsidebis. Thou ſhalt receiue an hundreth times as much, and poſſeſſe eternall lyfe.

Theophilus.

Saint Peter ſtudyed in an other ſchoole, and remembred the commaundement that the maiſter gaue vntounto him ſaying: Freely ye hauehave receyued, fréely gyue. Mat. 10. 28.Matt 10:28And for that cauſe hath hée himſelfe preached in his name, ſaying: ye were not redéenied with corruptible things, as 1. Pet. 1. d. 181 Pet 1ſiluer and golde, from your bayne conuerſation, which yée receyued by the traditions of the fathers: but with the precious bloud of Chriſt, as of a Lambe vndefiled, and without ſpot. Foraſmuch then as it is ſo, are not thoſe men The panishmē? vppon thoſe vvhichwhich re…ect y^• goſpell, & doe go to a ſtrange fireworthy to be caſt into euerlaſting fire, if they doe reiecte ſuch grace, when it is preſented and offered vntounto them? and if they refuſe to bée purged with that celeſtiall fire, which was not ſent vntounto them for to conſume them, but for to ſaue them?

Hillarius.

Wée muſt not doubte of it.

p. 57Theophilus.

All other fire then beſides that is a ſtraunge fire, the which y^e Lord hath forbidden, willing & cōmaunding Leuit. 10. a. r. Nomb. 16 g. 46. Nomb. 26. g. 26. Eſai. 6. c. 6.Lev 10Isa 6that we ſhould vſe onelyonly the ſame of his temple and aulter, of which the Seraphin tooke and brought the cole in his hand, wherewith he purged the lippes and mouth of Eſay. Alſo they ought to way and conſider the example of Dathan and Dathan and Abiron. Nomb. 16. e. 31.Abiron and what profit they receiued in offering of ſtraunge fire, other then that which was commaunded of God. They offered it, but it was to their owne hurt and deſtruction. For God kindled fire againſt them and they were burned and conſumed, as the Babilonians were wyth the fire of their furnace. Danl. 3. c. 22. Nadab and Abihu. Leuit. 10. a. 1.Lev 10And if God dyd not pardon Nadab and Abihu the proper ſonnes of Aaron, but cauſed them to bée burned and conſumed openly in the ſight of all the people, onelye bicauſe that through negligence they did take other fyre then of the Temple, doe they thincke that hée will ſupport and beare rather wyth thoſe who dyſpiſe the fire of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, and of his holy Ghoſt: Therefore hee ſayde not wythout a cauſe, when hée did ſende his Dyſciples for to bringe that fire, ſayinge: When you ſhall enter into any Citte or houſe, if they wyll not …ue you, Mat. 10. b. 14.Matt 10ſhake off the duſt of your féete in a witneſſe agaynſt them. For truely I ſaye it ſhall bée eaſier for the lande of Sodoma and Gomorra in the daye of iudgement, then for thoſe of that generation. Wherefore I ſayd but euen now y^e that celeſtiall fire draweth with it the fire & brimſtone, which conſumed Sodoma and Gomorra. For he that ſhall not be purged by that fire in this world, it is neceſſary that he be conſumed in that hell fire. And therefore it is better for vsus that we doe holde our ſelues vntounto that Purgatory, ſith that it hath pleaſed God to bring vsus thether agayne, then to ſéeke an other, which in ſteede to purge vsus, doth burne vsus in hell fire.

Thomas.

If it be ſo, it is a greate deale better. But I would gladly know how that fire hath bene quenched out ſo long time, and now kindled againe.

Theophilus.

You may well vnderſtand that when men woulde kindle an other, they muſt quenche out thys heere, and alſo wh… men wold build an other Purgatory, they muſt ruinate and deſtroy that of Ieſus Chriſt. For they cannot agrée together: and it is impoſſible that the one can endure & continue with the other, ſith that the one purgeth without The cauſe vvherefore the purgatory of Ieſus Chriſt hath hene vnknovvne.money; through the onelyonly grace of God, and the other is an inſatiable goulfe, which melteth & conſumeth all the golde & ſiluer of the world, neither purgeth it the ſinnes, but maketh all thoſe guiltie of hell fire that ſéeke in it their purgation.

Hillarius.

I doe compte him to be fooliſh & mad that had rather conſume and waſt all his ſubſtaunce for to buy hell, then to receiue Paradiſe fréely, which ſhal coſt him nothing.

Thomas.

In hearinge you ſpeake, I am greatly eſtonied to ſee how men hauehave chaunged their nature. For they do all willingly runne to the beſt chepe, & there is none but bad rather receiue good merchaundiſe, if it coſte nothinge, then to buy the bad very deere: or poyſon for to kill in ſteede of bread which ought to nouriſh, & which ſhall be preſented and offered vntounto him without money.

Theophilus.

And yet neuertheleſſe wée doe ſée the ſame put in practiſe eueryevery day: wherein we may well know how God hath taken away the ſences and vnderſtanding of men, who doe take ſuch great pleaſure to deſtroy themſelues, and to loſe both their bodies, ſoules and goodes: For they are mad to runne after y^e prieſts for to buy death, and refuſe life, which is preſented vntounto thē fréely and thanckfully by Ieſus Chriſt.

Hillarius.

I beléeue it well, & behold the cauſe wherefore al theſe collyars and kitchin men, who doe liue vponupon that fire, hauehave endcuoured themſelues as much as lyeth in them, to quench out altogether the fire of the goſpel of Ieſus Chriſt, which quencheth & putteth out theirs, bicauſe that it is more vehement and more violent, and conſumeth it into Aſſhes.

Thomas.

Is it then true that it is quenched euen as you ſay, and that there remaineth nothing whole?

Theophilus.

There remaineth yet ſome chamber or cabine, which are not yet all burned. But ſithence that once the fire of Ieſus Chriſt hath begun there to kindle, it will not ceaſe vntill ſuch time as it hath conſumed it all p. 58into Aſſhes, for that is a fire which none can quench.

Hillarius.

I do much meruaile that they doe not all runne for water to caſt vponupon it. Whereto ſerueth their holy water? wherefore doe they not no we make it to ſhew his vertues, as well as againſt the lightninges & tempeſtes when they coniure them?

Theophilus.

They do cleane contrary. For eueryevery one runneth to the fire, to the fagots, to the brimſtone, to the lights & to the bellowes for to make it the more to burne. And they are ſo hot after it that there is neyther, To put out fire by fire.King, Prince, Lord Bourgis, Merchaunt, or Labourer, whom they do not prouoke to blow their fire & to caſt on fagots, in ſuch ſort that it is become ſo great, that men doo ſée in many places that it is like to conſume thoſe that bée aliue.

Thomas.

Can they quench it by that meanes?

Theophilus.

You are not deceiued, hath the fire of men vſed to quench the fire of God? No, but they doe kindle it dayly more and more.

Hillarius.

I know the cauſe wherefore they doe it. They do greatly feare leaſt thoſe Lutherians and heretickes ſhould not be dampned, and that they ſhould not go into hell, ſith that they denie the Purgatory, and that they will not enter, therefore they woulde make them to féele it in this world, and to purge them from their ſinnes, & to put them in Paradiſe againſt their wils. They doe well declare thereby, that they differ from the Perſians, The Perſians. Cice. Tuſ. q. li. 1 Strab. li. 15. Volater. Herod. li. 1. 2. 4. Reg. 16. a. 3. &. 17. e. 17. 2. Cor. 28. a. 3. Pſal. 106. f. 37 Lact. de ſal. rel. li. 1. ca. 21 Euſ. de prep. eu. li. 4. Plini. li. 7. Dtoni. Hali. Diod in. 2. biblioth. The Pope maketh princes his haugmen.Ps 106who will not burne the dead bodyes, as the Greekes & Latines do, bicauſe they hold the fire as a God; and they thinck that it ſéemeth that it was much vnſéemely for his maieſtie to defile himſelfe with dead bodies, and to nouriſh him with fleſh. But theſe héere do giuegive him none other meat, but do ſacrifice to him men, as the Idolatres dyd God Moloch, Pluto, Saturnus, and dyd nouriſhe them wyth mans fleſhe. But one maye replye vntounto mée, and ſaye, that they dyd vntounto him that honour to nouriſhe hym wyth lyue fleſh.

Theophilus.

I am not ſo much amazed to ſée them doo that, as I am to ſée how they make the princes & lords their hangmen, putting into their hands thoſe whom they would hauehave to be executed.

Hillarius.

They ſhewe themſelues to bée the ſucceſſors of thoſe, who ſayde vntounto Pylate, ſpeaking of Ieſus Chriſte: we hauehave a lawe and by our lawe he ought to dye. But it Iohn. 19. 2. 7.John 19:2John 19:7is not lawfull for vsus to put any man to death. And therefore they praye ayde of the ſeculer power, the whiche men dare not refuſe. I doe thincke that many Princes & Lordes doe feare leaſt it happen vntounto them as it happened vntounto Nicanor the preuoſt of Alexander, againſt the Bactrianians. Nicanor.The Hircanians and Bactrianians did vſually giuegive vntounto the dogges thoſe that were very olde, and did thincke it to be the Bactrianians Hircantans.beſt burying. For that cauſe the common people nouriſhed vp common dogs for that purpoſe, and the riche men tame and demeſticall dogges for to ſerue them for that purpoſe: Cicero. ſi. 1. Tuſ. qua. Sixt. Emper. Hiero. aduer. louin. lib. 2. Canes ſepulchrales. The dogges for burying. Cal. Rhod. Lect. aut li. 17. ca. 19. Aduer. louini. li. 2. P. Roſſet a princely poet. Chanons of Mont faucon.And therefore they called them in their language the dogges of Sepulchres or graue dogges. Then when Nicanor was come vntounto the Bactrianians, hée endeuoured himſelfe to reforme and correct that vile cuſtome and execrable crime. But he could neuer take order to reforme it, but to the contrary as witneſſeth ſainct Hierome, they did riſe againſte him, in ſuch ſort that he had almoſt loſt his kingdome. Now if we will conſider the thinges and way them well, what are in theſe daies our Prieſts and Moonkes who do liue vponupon carrion, as the dogs of the Sepulchres doo. For that cauſe I thincke, that Roſſet the Poet of Sauoy, called the dogges, the Chanons of mount Faucon, as I hauehave heard him oftentimes ſay in his leſſons. Sith thē they hauehave vſed to eat mans fleſh, it is no meruaile though men do feare them, & that they féede them deintely, as they doe in Hircania. For there is not almoſt any great houſe but hath his domeſtical dogs, beſides thoſe that are kept & fed commonly in eueryevery towne & village.

Theophilus.

I doe much doubt that the ſame that they are afraide off will happen vntounto them, ſith y^e they wil ſet no good order, according to y^e power that God hath giuen vntounto them. I do greatly feare, that in y^e ende thoſe dogs wil dououre thē altogether. For they hauehave already wel begun.

Hillarius.

Me Cicer. de nat. Deo. lib. 2.thincks that they take y^e Pope for Moloch, Pluto or Saturne, whō men cannot appaiſe without ſacrificing vntounto them men. p. 59The Pope woulde bée called our holy father, but that is ſuch a father as Saturne was, who did eat his owne children Saturne and Rea.(if the Poets hauehave not lyed) but yet Rea his wife hid them from him, and kept them y^e he ſhould not eate them. But the court of Rome, & the papiſticall Church, who would be called our holy mother Church, doth eate them as well as our holy father: and in ſtéede to hide them from him, ſhe ſéeketh eueryevery where for to deuoure thē with him. Wherfore we may very well giuegive credit to the Poets, & accompt them as Prophetes herein. For me thincks that they hauehave truely Ould. Faſt 4.propheſied and figured … thoſe Gods which we hauehave. I Sueto. in Ang.would that the Princes would better aduiſe themſelues in their doings, and that they doe not vntounto the Pope, as Auguſtus Caeſar did vntounto Iulius, vntounto whom he ſacrificed thrée hundreth men before his Alter the ninth of March of thoſe that yéelded themſelues.

Thomas.

I know not what to ſay of your matters, and am much abaſhed that Euſebius holdeth his peace all this while without ſpeaking any woorde, that he taketh not the quarell in hande & the matter in earneſt for to defend the holy mother y^e church to which he beareth ſo great zeale. How much doth purgatory coſt thée eueryevery yere Euſebius?

Euſebius.

I will not make thée accompt, nor I wil not hauehave the trumpet blowen when I do any good déede.

Thomas.

I will tell thée the cauſe it that be true that they ſay, you and I hauehave loſt much money, & our matter fareth very euill. Wherefore me thinckes you ſhoulde anſwere ſomething, and alledge ſome reaſon againſt that y^e they ſay, or otherwiſe me thinckes you wil be vāquiſhed, & that you do proue all that which you hauehave heard of them.

Euſebius.

What reaſon will you that I alledge vntounto people without reaſon? It maketh me to tremble to heare their blaſphemies, and I doe meruaile how God can ſuffer them, inſomuch that in hearing them me thinckes that the earth ſhould open hir mouthe and ſwallowe them vp. A lyttle thing would hauehave made me to hauehave gene away, and I am amazed how I could heare it ſo long.

Theophilus.

HaueHave you found our matters ſo out of reaſon.

Euſebius.

But what reaſon is there to mocke ſo wyth God & with our holy mother the Church? I do greatly feare that God will not giuegive you grace to go from hence into purgatory: But that he wil ſend you into hell, & that you ſhalbe of the number of thoſe vntounto whom Ieſus Chriſt will ſaye: Goe ye curſed into euerlaſting fire. For I wel know by your Mat. 25. d. 41Matt 25owne words that you do ſmell of the brimſtone and fagots, and that you are rancke heretickes. I doubt not, but y^e there hath ben a great many burned that hauehave ben honeſter men then you are.

Hillarius.

Nor I alſo doubt it. ſhe cannot denie but that the tyrants hauehave burned many holy Martyres, for the Goſpel of Martyrs.Ieſus Chriſt, & doe yet ſtill vntounto this day a great many honeſter men then we. For if they had not bene good & honeſt men, they would not hauehave by their bloud ſealed the witneſſe of the truth.

Thomas.

I do wel perceiue that Euſebius wil leape by and by vponupon the Aſſe, and will be in a rage, if men do vere him much.

Euſebius.

Who would not be in a rage, bearing ſuch matters? It were inough to make all men aliue in a rage, that hauehave any zeale vntounto the holy catholike Church.

Thomas.

Foraſmuch as thou thinckeſt that wée are ſo farre paſt reaſon, I pray thée, to aunſwere vntounto that which I wil aſke thée. And if thou hauehave any good reaſō, ſhew it foorth, for to draw mée from errour & hereſie, if thou thinkeſt y^e I am fallen into any.

Euſebius.

I will not diſpute nor plead with you, but I had rather follow the counſaile of ſainct Paul, who commaundeth me to reiect him that is an Tit. 3. c. 10Titus 3hereticke. For it is forbidden to diſpute with them. And I To diſpute vvith Heretickes.do wel know, that I ſhall profit nothing, but to be peruerted, if I were not very ſtrong in my faith. For as farre as I can perceiue, you are already to obſtinate and hardned in your hereſies: and as ſaint Paul ſayth: Euill woords corrupt 1. Cor. 15. c. 331 Cor 15good manners.

Theophilus.

You hauehave ſpoken your minde. But before that you do condemne vsus for heretickes, we muſt be vanquiſhed of hereſie. And if it ſhould be ſo that we ſhould fal into any errour & hereſie, yet thou canſt not cal vsus hereticks, except p. 60it be knowne vntounto thée that we were the authours and The ſignificatiō and definition of an hereticke Auguſt. 1. li. de vtilita. credend. Et. 24. quae. 3. ca. Haereticus.inuenters of ſects, or that we were obſtinate and hardned in errour, and that through praiſe, arogancie, preſumption or couetouſneſſe, & for ſome worldly gaine or profit, we woulde ſpeake againſt the truth. For according to S. Auguſtines diffinition, ſuch men ought to be taken for heretickes. But I beſéech God we be not led with ſuch affection. And when you ſhall know perfectly that we are heretickes, yet ſainct Paul Titus. 3. ca. 10.Titus 3doth not commaund vsus to reiect an heretick at the firſt daſh, but after once or twice admonition, when he ſheweth himſelfe incorrigible. And as yet you hauehave not admoniſhed nor corrected vsus, wherfore you cannot lawfully accuſe vsus, neither of obſtination, nor yet of hereſie. And to the ende that wée ſhould giuegive the leſſe occaſion, I am content to heare patiently all y^t which you will ſay, and beléeue that I ſhall receyue reaſon for paiment, vponupon this condition alſo that you wyll heare mée, & talke with me quietly, as though you did count me for your Chriſtian brother, vntill ſuch time as you hauehave vanquiſhed me by your reaſons, & that you did fully know my obſtination.

Thomas.

I would gladly ſée Euſebius ſkirmiſh with you: But in the meane time I would alſo as gladly heare that ſome would ſpeake of dinner, and to let that ſkirmiſh alone till afterward. For I do ſée y^e the ſunne is already very hye, and thincke that we hauehave forgotten to dine: For I hauehave a ſtomacke that barketh as the hungry hound, which kéepeth me y^e I cannot forget it.

Hillarius.

Thervnto I am thy compalgnion. Therfore I finde thy counſaile good. I know not how it is with you, but with me I hauehave a good appetite to drinck.

Euſebius.

God knoweth that you are yet faſting at this maſſe. For you hauehave accuſtomed to faſt.

Hillarius.

Although I hauehave broken my faſt twice, yet you ought not to be abaſhed although that I am much altered. For we hauehave bene all y^e day about that fire of Purgatory, which hath ſo altered me that I thincke that all the holy water of the Prieſtes cannot quench the fire and the thirſt which is in my throate.

Euſebius.

I dooe beléeue verye well that you louelove the wine better then he water, & that y^e ſame is the holy water that you require.

Hillarius,

I do alſo beléeue that you are not much contrary from mine opinion, and I do not thinck, how good a catholike ſoeuer you be, that you would chaunge with a prieſt a pinte or quarte of wine, for a quarte of his holy water. At y^e leaſtwiſe I would not: for I doe finde the one better and more profitable then the other. I know not how y^e ſoules of Purgatory do like of the water, but I do like better of the wine: And if I muſt néedes drincke water, I had rather to mingle it with a little wine, then with ſalt, as the Prieſts do in their holy water.

Euſebius.

They do it not for to drincke.

Hillarius.

I beléeue it well: for they are not ſo deintie: & they louelove the wine as well as I. But wherefore doe they it?

Thomas.

For to deface & purge the ſinnes by the ſprinckling thereoff.

Hillarius.

I am aſhamed of their folly. One may Apothegma of Diogenes for the holy vvater Ouid, Faſt. 1. Ah nimium ſaciles, qui triſtia crimina cadii. Exigua tolli poſio putalls aqua.very well ſay vntounto them as Diogenes ſaid vntounto a certeyne Panim, who ſprinckled himſelfe with water for to purge his ſinnes, after their auncient manner. O miſerable man (ſaith he) if thou haſt ſ…led in thy Grammer and committed a fault and incongruite, thou canſt not be abſolued w^c ſprinckling of the water: how doſt thou then thinck with the ſprinckling of the water to be abſolued and waſhed from thy ſinnes?

Thomas.

It ſéemeth vntounto me that if you hauehave ſuch great thirſt as you ſay, you wil not begin to enter into a new matter, for to make vsus faſt any longer.

Theophilus.

Admit it were ſo y^t we had a day of faſting. For it is now Lent, & although it were not yet I do beléeue y^t Euſebius would hauehave faſted & peraduenture Thomas alſo. And when we ſhalbe all vnderunder the Popes religion, we muſt thē faſt the Lent al out, or els at the leaſtwiſe a great part thereoff.

Hillarius.

It is true, and it is better for vsus to faſt at libertie, then through compulſion. But ſith that ye be all of that minde, let vsus goe then to dinner.

¶ Finis primi Dialog.