The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 6 · Body of dialogue

The Christian Disputations · Dialogue 6 · Body of dialogue

THE SIXT DIALOGVE WHICH is called the Requieſcant in pace, of Purgatorye.

THOMAS,

Although friend Euſebius, thou haſt reſiſted Theophilus and Hillarie as much as thou canſt, and that thou haſt fought valyantlye, yet neuertheleſſe thou couldeſt not ſo vertuouſlye defende thy ſelfe, but that the forewarde, the winges and the hornes of thy armye, and almoſt all the whole hoaſt is diſcomfyted and ouercome: there reſteth no more nowe but the arrierewarde. If it defende it ſelfe no valyentlyer, and that it bée no better armed then the others, thou ſhalt carry no good newes to the Pope of that combatte, and thou ſhalt giuegive him no greate occaſion to receiue thee among his Capitaines, and to reward thée ritchly.

Euſebius.

I doe not fight for the Pope, but for the trueth. It is to me all one who dee gaine or winne the battaile, ſo that the victorie abideth with the trueth, and that Ieſus doe raigne in his Church.

Theophilus.

I am very glade for the good affection that GOD hath giuen vntounto thée, and that thou art not like vntounto a heape and company of ambicious and glorious men, who what ſo euer euill cauſe that they hauehave, will neuer confeſſe them ſelues ouercome and vanquiſhed, but eſtéeme their glory more dearer then the ſame of Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

It is verye true that at the beginning I was much offended with your wordes. But when I conſidered that which I hauehave hearde of you, I knewe not well to which ſide to turne. You hauehave alreadye very much ouercome and fayled me, neuertheleſſe I hauehave yet many places of the holye Scriptures, which holde me in ſuſpens, and leaue me in a greate ſcruple and doubt in my conſcience, vntill ſuch time as thou haſt p. 262ſhewed me by liuely & euident reaſons, that I muſt vnderſtande them otherwiſe then they hauehave béene expounded vntounto me: or elſe you ſhall be conſtrayned to chaunge your matter, and to denye and vnſay all that you hauehave ſaide euen vntill this preſent time.

Hillarius.

Propounde them all by order, and Theophilus wil addres & guyde thée to the true vnderſtanding.

Euſebius.

For to kéepe the better order, I wyll beginne by the olde teſtament, and afterwards will follow The diſpoſition of this dialoguethe newe, after the order by which the bookes of the ſame are diſpoſed and ſet, alledging out of eueryevery one of them the pointes which may ſerue to my matters. I will put forth vntounto thée that which Thoby commaunded his Thob. 4. d 18.ſonne, ſaying: Set thy breade and wine vppon the buriall of the righteous. But thou wilt aunſwere vntounto me, that that booke is Apocripha, or onelyonly Eccleſiaſticall, and not The booke of Thobie.Canonicall, as thou haſt already done of the ſame of the Machabees.

Theophilus.

Truely I may aunſwere thée ſo. But although it were Canonicall, where too would it ſerue for thy matter?

Euſebius.

Very well, following the interpretacion of Eccius, which expoundeth it of the Almoſes for to refreſh The expoſition of the place of Thoby.the poore, that they ſhould pray vntounto God for the ſaluation of the deade.

Theophilus.

He that woulde followe the expoſicions of Eccius, there is not a place in the Bible which he hath not corrupted and marred, for to make it ſerue to the popiſh tyranny. In the booke of Thoby, & in that place there, there is no mention made of praying for the dead. And although thoſe words preceded thervnto, he ought rather to hauehave ſaide: Set thy breade vppon the buriall of the ſinner, then vponupon that of the righteous. For the ſinners ſhal hauehave more neede of ſuch prayers, then the righteous. But he ſaith altogether contrarye. For hée addeth: eate and drinke not with the ſinners and wicked: The which is better expreſſed by the Greeke, ſaying: Set thy breade vponupon the buriall of the righteous, and giuegive it not vntounto ſinners. Wherefore it is moſt likeſt to be true, ſith that before he hath ſpoken of Almoſes, that he recommendeth by thoſe wordes, chiefely the righteous and faithfull, euen as ſaint Paul, aboue all other recommendeth thoſe of the houſhold of faith. Nowe there are many manners and wayes to beſtowe ones breade and wyne vppon the burialles of the righteous: The firſt is … ſtovve ones bread & vvine vponupon the burtial of the righteous Thob…in burying them honeſtly, as Thoby did, without ſparing that which was there vntounto néedefull and requiſite. For the Hebrewes by the breade, wyne and water, doe vnderſtande all the things neceſſarie vntounto man, and vntounto mans life. The other is, when we doe helpe our bretheren, & ſuccour ſo their neceſſities: that they dye not for want of vittailes, nor goe downe to the graue without being buried. If we doe otherwiſe, we kill them, when we f…de them not, and that they do dye through our default. The thirde is when we comfort thorowe Almoſes the children and friendes of the deade. Then we ſhed foorth our breade and wine vponupon their burialles, behold the holy water that they deſire. And it is a great deale better to doe after that ſort, then to playe the glutton with the gluttons, drunkerds and wicked. But the manner of ſpech is ſomewhat obſcure, bicauſe that the booke, notwithſtanding that it was written in Greeke, yet neuertheleſſe it keepeth the phraſes and manners of the Hebrew ſpeach.

Hillarius.

He that will then followe the counſell of Thoby, muſt no more banket and feaſt the Prieſtes, ſith The place of Thoby … to the ….that he forbiddeth to giuegive his breade and wine vntounto ſinners and the wicked. For there is not a people vponupon the earth, of a more execrable life, nor which do more abuſe the goods which GOD hath giuen vntounto man: Amongſt whom one may well accompt and number Eccius for one of the principalleſt Captaines of God Bacchus. For he was very angry, that day he was not dronken in. Wherfore it is no meruaile, if he woulde mainteine the ſpitt and the fryingpan. But yet no ueil … although he and p. 263all ſuch as he is would preſſe and take the words of Thoby by the rigour without admitting any expoſition confirmable and agreable to the worde of God, it ſhould hauehave had more colour for to allow the auncient cuſtome which the Panyms had to cary breade vponupon the burialls and to An other p…ace taken out of the pſalme, 66powre thereon wine, euen as already hath béene ſpoken, then for to proue the bankettes of the prieſtes, and the prayers for the deade. Neuertheleſſe we are well aſſured that neither Thoby nor any other holy man but hauehave had regard not to allow ſuch ſuperſticious.

Euſebius.

Let vsus leaue of Eccius and the priſtes, and anſwere me vntounto that which is written in the booke of the Pſalmes: We hauehave paſſed thorowe the fire and water, and thou haſt drawen vsus out, and ſet vsus in ioye and comforte. Howe vnderſtandeſt thou that place? The which many Theologians doe expounde it of the fire of purgatory, by the which the ſoules muſt firſt paſſe, for to be purged, before that they can enter into the celeſtiall reſt. To which agréeth very well that which ſaint Paul The place of the 1. Cor, 3. c. 11writeth to the Corinthians, ſaying: For other foundation can no man …ay, then that which is layde, which is Ieſus Chriſt. And if any man bylde vponupon this foundacion, gold, ſiluer, precious ſtones, tymber, hay or ſtubble, eueryevery mans worke ſhall appeare. For the day ſhall declare it, and it ſhalbe ſhewed in fire: And the fire ſhall trie eueryevery mans worke what it is. If any mans worke that he hath buylt vponupon, byde, he ſhall receiue a rewarde. If any mannes worke burne, be ſhall ſuffer loſſe, but he ſhalbe ſafe himſelfe: neuertheleſſe yet as it were thorowe fire. What fire can we here vnderſtand then that of purgatory, which purgeth? wherefore one is ſauid by the ſame. The which we cannot vnderſtand of y^• ſame of hel, from which none can be deliuered, nor conſequently ſaued. What aunſwereſt thou to that? I do here breake a lyttle the order that I had thought to hauehave kept, & do leape from the Pſalter vntounto the Epiſtles of ſaint Paul: But it is b…cauſe that the matters are like, and that the one of the pointes may the better be diſcuſſed and opened with the other. For we cannot vnderſtand that fire, thorowe which one goeth and paſſeth, but of the ſame of which ſaint Paule ſpeaketh by the which one is ſaued. For none can paſſe from the ſame of hell, but it kéepeth and holdeth faſt all that that commeth to it. Declare and expound vntounto me theſe two places, and afterwards I will go ſtraite way to the newe Teſtament, and will kéepe order as I hauehave ſaide.

Theophilus.

As touching the place of the Pſalmes, Aunſwere to y^e place of the Pſalmes.it is moſte cleare, that in that Pſalme the Prophete ſpeaketh of the tyrannye and oppreſſion, and of the greate afflictions and aduerſities which the people of god hauehave ſuffered, from which God hath deliuered them. And the better to comprehend all in a ſumme, the great euills and daungers, in which that people hath beene drowned and plunged, he ſpeaketh it in the perſon of him: wée are come vntounto the fire and water, and thou haſt ledde vsus by them. He vſeth commonly the compariſon of the fire Eſai…. 4. … 4. …ere 49. … 27 1. Pet. 1. b 7.1 Pet 1and water, bicauſe that there is nothing which ſooner will kill & diſpatch a man, then the fire and water, when they hauehave once power ouer him. And therefore they are many times taken in the holy ſcriptures, for the temptations perſecutions, paſſions, daungers deathes, and iudgement of God, by the which all is examined, proued and tryed as by the fire and water, and there is none that can eſcape, if the Lorde do not delyuer and drawe him from it, as it is here ſpoken afterwardes. As touching 1. Cor. 3 …. The expoſition of the place of the Corrithians1 Cor 3the place of Saint Paul, he pretended an other thing, then to the fire of Purgatory, as it is eaſie to know by his owne wordes. Wherefore I doe make thée thine owne iudge of the cauſe, & I demaunde of thee firſt, whether thou art of an opinion, that it behoueth that all the holy Prophets, Apoſtles and Martyrs, do paſſe by or thorowe that fire of Purgatory?

Euſebius.

Noe.

Hillarius,

Thoſe which alledge that place for to proue the Purgatorie, dare not to confeſſe that. For they magnifie and extoll ſo much the merittes of Saints, that they hauehave made p. 264a treaſure in their Church, of thoſe which they hauehave of The treſure of the Church.ſuperaboundance, the which they do vaunt themſelues to diſtribute vntounto others.

Theophilus.

Neuertheles the Apoſtle ſpeaketh in that place of the principalleſt members of y^e church, to wit, of the Prophets, Apoſtles, Euangeliſts, Doctors, Preachers, and conſequently of all thoſe which do edifie by their doctrine, whom he calleth maſons and buylders. He ſaith that eueryevery ones worke ſhall paſſe by the fire, and that the workeman alſo ſhalbe examined by the ſame. Wherfore, either you ſhall be conſtrayned to confeſſe that that fire cannot be vnderſtanded of the ſame of Purgatorye, or that there is neither Saint nor Saintes but is compelled to paſſe by the ſame, for to proue & trye his worke, ſith that he excepteth none. But ſaith plainly, that eueryevery mans ſhalbe tryed by the fire: The which thing ſaint Auguſtine was not ignorant off, but vſeth the ſame reaſon, De ciui. dei. li. 21. ca. 26. Trac. defid. & oper. c. 16. Ench. ca. 68againſt thoſe which would mainteine by thoſe words of the Apoſtle, that thoſe which beléeue in Ieſus Chriſt, ſhalbe all ſaued, howe wicked a lyfe ſo euer they hauehave lyued, and buylded vppon the foundation, which is Ieſus Chriſt, prouided that they had not altogether abandoned and forſaken the foundation. He taketh not that fire, for that of Purgatory: But for the tribulations, aduerſities, and perſecutions of this worlde. Although that ſome wil ſay, that the like is done yet in the other world, he ſaith that he will not repunge their opinion: the which as he ſaith may be true. But yet neuertheleſſe he dareth not to affirme it, but expoundeth that fire of the tribulations of Theophila. in 1. Cor. 3.1 Cor 3this worlde here. Theophilacte, who almoſt in all his commentaries hath followed Chriſoſtome, notwithſtanding that he is not of the moſt auncientes, and that hée hath written ſithence that the church hath beene verye much marred and ſpoyled, and that already that fire of Purgatorye was ve…ye muche kindeled, yet neuertheleſſe hée made here no mention at all, not of one onelyonly ſillable: But taketh that fire for the ſame of Hell: ſaying, that the ſinner ſhalbe ſaued: that is to ſay, that he ſhalbe reſerued whole and entire, for to burne in the fire and to be puniſhed perpetually. But for to come to the true and more cleare vnderſtanding of thoſe wordes, Saint Paul meaneth here brieſely, that all buylding, all doctrine, and workes buylded and inuented without the word of God, ſhall turne into ſmoke and vaniſh away altogether, without being able to abide and continue firme, notwithſtanding that all that ſhalbe builded vppon the true foundation, which is Chriſt, who cannot beare vppe any buylding, if it be not pure gold, ſiluer, pearles and precious ſtones, taken from his worde, which is more pure Pſal. 19 c. 11Ps 19then the gold and ſiluer fined and tryed ſeuen times. And therefore the Apoſtle vſeth here a metaphore, tranſlation, and compariſon. For euen as he compareth the pure doctrine A compariſon of the d…ne and hum…ne doctrine.of y^• goſpel to the gold, ſiluer & precious ſtones, which cannot be conſumed by the fire, but are by the ſame tryed and doe appeare more faire and cleane: So he compareth the doctrines dreamed and inuen…ed by the braine of man, vntounto wood, hay, chaffe and ſtubble, and by good right. For euen as thoſe thinges cannot abide the fire but are conſumed and periſhed aſſone as they féele it, ſo in lyke manner ſhall mens doctrines periſh, and cannot abyde and continewe firme, when they ſhall come to the touchſtone. It happeneth vntounto vsus oftentimes that we delyte and pleaſe our ſelues in our owne workes, and wée thinke that we hauehave made a faire and a goodly péece of worke. But wée muſt bring it to the touchſtone: the which ſhall not be after our owne iudgement, but according to the ſame of GOD, who is the iudge of vsus and of our workes. Therefore ſaith he, that the day ſhall declare it, and that the fire ſhall trye what euerye mannes worke ſhall bée. He calleth the day of the Lord, The day of the Lord.all tymes, in which hée manifeſ…eth his preſence vntounto men, by any manner of wayes: the which he doth chiefely by the manifeſtation of his truth, and reuelation of his Goſpell. p. 265By the fire, although that in the Scripture it be many The fire.times taken, for the temptacions and tribulations, yet neuertheles it agréeth beſt héere to the ſence & meaning of the Apoſtle, to take the fire for the towchſtone which procéedeth of the holy Ghoſt, which is the true fire, which conſumeth all doctrine inuented by men, the which cannot abyde the ſpirituall towchſtone but vaniſheth away aſſoone as one proueth the ſpirites, whether they be of God or not. Aſmuch happeneth of all the workes, procéeding of ſuch doctrine, the which cannot beare the iudgement of God. But to the contrary, it happeneth to the … Pet, …, b. 7truth as to the faith, the which euen as the golde, becommeth more fairer, and ſheweth it ſelfe more pure, when it is tryed and examined in that furnayce, and approcheth néerer of that ſpirituall iudgement. And therefore when the word of the Lorde is manifeſt by the vertue of the holy Ghoſt, then all things are reuealed. We ſhall know what worke we hauehave made: whether it hath any …ault in it or not: and whether we hauehave loſt our time: or whether we be worthy of a reward. If we hauehave not buylded a matter agréeing to the foundation, when the truth & the iudgement of the ſpirit of god preſſeth our conſcience, or that the temptations alſo and the afflictions doe compaſſe vsus rounde about, wée are compelled to condempne our worke, and we ſhall proue that that which we eſtéeme to be of ſome waight and importaunce, is nothing at all, and that in which we put our hope and truſt, cannot ſerue vsus, neither confirme nor aſſure our conſciences,

Euſebius.

But how are we ſaued by the fire, if our workes are loſt, and by the ſame conſumed?

Theophilus.

The Apoſtle declareth it ſufficiently himſelf, To be ſaued by the ſyre.if we do marke of what people he ſpeaketh. He ſpeaketh not of Hereticks, Apoſtates, ſeducers and falſe Prophets, which teach falſe doctrine, contrary to the faith, and which are ſeperated from Ieſus Chriſt and from his body, which is the Church, by their infidelytie and peruerſitie. But he ſpeaketh of the Maſons and buylders of the Churche, that is to ſay, of Euangelycall Paſtors and Miniſters, which hauehave not forſaken the foundation, nor y^• head, which Col, 1. c. 18. &. …, b. 10. …hc. 1. d. 22is Ieſus Chriſt, that is to ſay, which hauehave not tourned themſelues from the principall poynts and articles of the Chriſtian religion, and from the ſaith in Ieſus Chriſt, and from things neceſſary to ſaluation: But hauehave mingled ſome of their inuentions and traditions amongſt the doctrine of the Goſpell: and hauehave fayled in ſome lyttle and ſmall things which are not very daungerous. Thoſe then to whom ſuch things ſhall happen: ſhall receyue domage and loſſe: For their wor…e, and that which they hauehave added to it of theirs ſhall periſh: and ſhall hauehave no more profite, then if they were altogether diſpoſſeſſed of them: But they ſhal hauehave rather ſhame and confuſion for them. Yet neuertheleſſe they ſhall be ſaued, but as by the fire: not their fault their errors and ignoraunce and their buildings, buylded without the word of God, may be agréea…le to God: But bicauſe of the foundation which they hauehave holden and kept, and of the head of which they remayne members, and of the faith which abideth in them, ſhall be purged and delyuered from error and ignoraunce by that fire of the holy Ghoſt, with which they ſhall bée illuminated. But yet neuertheleſſe héerein, men will liken The … of foolish builders.him vntounto a fooliſh buylder, which ſhall buyld vponupon a good and ſure foundation of ſtone and a rocke, a houſe or buylding of wood, …ye, chaſſe and ſtubble, which thinke to hauehave made a goodly péece of worke, and knowes not his fault vntill that he ſéeth that the fire bath taken and conſumed it altogether. Then he knoweth by experience, that be hath loſt his time, and the coſt and expences that he hath beſtowed about it; and that be is forced to beginne his buylding a new, … though he had neuer put his hand vntounto it, ſauing that th… ſhame and the loſſe abideth with him. We call our ſelues all Chriſtians, and doe confeſſe that there is but one foundation and one head, Ieſus Chriſt, But although that in that behalfe we doe all agrée, yet neuertheles when they come to buylde vponupon that p. 266foundation, all ſhall not be found good Maſons. For many will be Maſters, before they hauehave bene good ſchollers and apprentices: and will not follow the rule and the inſtruction of the maſter Maſons, well expert and cunning in their miſtery and occupation, but thincking to make ſome fairer thing, doe buylde after their owne fantaſie. They doe preach or heare the Goſpell, and will ſerue god after their affection, and as they thinke good: And thincking to make ſome faire péece of worke they marre it altogether. But they doe not know it by and by, vntill ſuch time as the fire of the Goſpell and of the ſpirite of God, which is the true Iudge, and the truth reuealed vntounto men deſtroyeth all the goodly outwarde appearaunce, and maketh it to be ſéene ſuch as it is, and not ſuch as it appeareth outwarde: As wée ſée by experience, in the Moonkiſh ſectes, and in many other ceremonyes, ſuperſtitions, Idolatryes, and workes inuented of menne, in which wee doe glorye and boaſte our ſelues, and thinke that we hauehave done mough for to merite foure Paradiſes, and for to make God to be in our debte. But when the Goſpell is purely preached which beateth down all error, all vayne ſuperſticion and mans truſt, then we ſhall know our fault, and be aſhamed of that of which we thinke to be much eſtéemed. Or when God ſendeth vntounto vsus ſome great affliction temptation and aduerſitie, that his iudgement preſſeth vsus, that he examineth and prourth our woorkes, as the fire proueth and tryeth the golde in the furnayce. Then we ſhall know our hypocriſie, folly, vanitie, and falſe religion, the which wée doe not thinke but to be pure godlyneſſe and righteouſneſſe: And as the holy Apoſtle, eſteeming as dongue all that which before wée eſtéemed as golde. But foraſmuch as wée hauehave Philip. 3. b. 8Phil 3not renounced and forſaken Ieſus Chriſt, nor the fayth which wée hauehave in him, wee are not altogether loſt, thorow the fault that we hauehave committed, but it happened vntounto vsus, euen ſo as vntounto him which hath eſcaped the fire. But he hath yet neuertholeſſe loſt his houſe, and all that which was in it, bicauſe that it was not buylded with good ſtuffe: and could ſaue but his body all naked his lyfe. Wherfore he muſt buyld it altogether new: doſt thou not thinke Euſebius, that this expoſition agréeth better to the ſence and meaning of the Apoſtle, then that of your Doctors which would tourne and wreſt it, to their ſence and vnderſtanding, againſt the ſame of the ſpirite of God, and of Saint Paul, and of the auncient Doctors, which hauehave neuer expounded it of the fire of Purgatory, but almoſt al of them to the ſence as I hauehave expounded it, chiefly Ambro. in 1. Cor. 3. The cuſtome of the falſe and tru… doctors1 Cor 3Saint Ambroſe. I cannot be too much abaſhed of the manner of doing of thoſe which will vphold mannes traditions. When we will propone any thing in the Church of Ieſus Chriſt, for a doctrine of ſaluation and an article of faith, we ought firſt of all dilygently to examine, whether that which we would put foorth, hath any certeine and ſure foundation in the word of God. If we find that it is commaunded of God and compriſed in the holy ſcriptures, we may and ought boldely to propounde and affirme it. On the contrary, if the Scripture doth make no mention of it, it is not lawfull onelyonly to open the mouth, for to ſpeake one word, and for to propounde for certeine a thing vncerteine. For curſed is the man, which putteth foorth for a ſure doctrine, a thing, of which he himſelfe is not certein, and of which he cannot ſay with the Prophet and the holy Pſal. 116, b. 11 2. Cor. 4. c 13Ps 1162 Cor 4Apoſtle: I hauehave beléeued it and therefore I ſpake it. For wée ought to beware and kéepe our ſelues, as from death, to teach vntounto others, to beléeue and to do that, which we our ſelues beléeue not, and of which we are not certeine. Now it is impoſſible to be aſſured and certeine of ſuch things, then by the word of god the which we ought to follow in all things. But I ſée cleane contrary in thoſe which hauehave taught mens traditions, in ſtéede of the worde of God. For in ſtéede to take counſayle of it, before they doe inſtitute any thing, they hauehave firſt propounded and perſwaded the people, that which cōmeth in their p. 267out béeing much aduiſed, whether God hath commaunded or forbidden it. It ſufficeth them ſo that they hauehave ſome ſhew and appearaunce. And when they perceiue that one will examine their Doctrines by the rule of the word of God, then fearing to be ouercome and condempned, they ſéeke if they can finde any thing in the Scripture for to proue their intent: the which they ought to hauehave done before they put tho thing foorth. But ſithence that they hauehave once ordeined and publiſhed it, and hauehave perceiued and felt the profit, it grieueth them ſore to recant and gaineſay it. And therefore they doe all their endeuours, for to finde in the Scripture ſome coulour, for to beautifie and ſhew foorth their worke: And there is nothing, ſo that it hath any appearaunce at all, but that they drawe it violently, depraue and marre it, for to make it ſerue to their purpoſe.

Hillarius.

They doe as thoſe which doe fight together, which take and catch all that commeth to their hands, for to defende them with, bée it ſwoorde, launce, ſtaffe forke, pole, fire brande, ſtones, dunge, myre, duſt, aſſhes, and all that which they can catch or come by, without regarding any thing but to defende themſelues and hurt their enimie. For that is all one vntounto them, ſo that they eſcape, … cary away the victory. Theſe Theologians Proue…b…. Rogula Leſbia. Ariſt. …. … mora. Eraſ. chil.doe make me to remember the olde pronerbe, of the rule Leſbia, the which was of Lead: Wherefore the Maſons of Leſbia boowed it as they would. And in ſtéede that they ought to meaſure and compaſſe their worke by the ſame, and the ſtones which they hewed and the wals which they builded, and to correct and amende them if they were not right & wel compaſſed, they did cleane contrary. For they did bend & make crooked their rule for to make it to agrée with their worke, where they ought to make the worke to agrée to the ſame. And ſo it obeyed them in all thinges. And whereas they ſhould correct and amend their worke by the rule, they corrected and amended the rule by their woorke. Euen ſo are many of the lawes, the which one maketh them to agrée to the manners, whereas by them they ought to be corrected, & not the lawes by mās affections.

Theophilus.

There is not a thing the which at this daye they doe more abuſe in that ſort, then the holy Scriptures. There is not a rule more firme, more ſurer and certeine, and yet neuertheleſſe the falſe Doctors to all purpoſes dooe tourne and wreſt it to their ſence and vnderſtandinge, as wée doe ſée by experience in that matter of Purgatorye. For ſithence that once that errour was brought into the Church of God, as ſoone as was founde in the holy Scripture one woorde that made mencion of fire, they hauehave by and by drawen and applyed it to their purpoſe, and hauehave taken it for a certeine proofe of Purgatorye, without hauing regarde, that the fire in the ſame is taken more then in a thouſand places, as well in the olde as newe Teſtament, in ſo many diuerſe ſignifications, chiefely in the pſalmes, Eſay, Ieremy, and in the other Prophetical and Apoſtolical Scriptures, of which it is not now néede to bring foorth the examples.

Hillarius.

Thou haſt hearde a ſufficient declarati…n of that place, of which thou oughteſt to content thy ſelfe Euſebius, and to kéepe thy ſelfe from following the example of your Doctors, which doe drawe and wreaſt the holy Scriptures, for to make them ſinge what it pleaſeth them, more cruelly then … Tyrant would draw and handle a malefactor on the racke and on the gallowes.

Euſebius.

They doe ſay the lyke of you.

Hillarius.

But it is ea…ly to iudge vntounto whome that office agréeth beſt.

Euſebius.

And howe vnderſtandeſt thou this place of Saint Mathew? where hée ſayth: Agrée with thine aduerſary The place o… Ma…. …, …, …5.quickly, whileſt thou art in the waye with him, leaſt th… nouerſary deliuer thée to the Iudge, & the Iudge deliuer thee to the Miniſter, & then thou be caſt in priſon. Verely I ſaye vntounto thée: thou ſhalt not come out thence til thou hauehave payde the vttermoſt farthing. What other priſon may wée vnderſtande héere, but the ſame of Purgatory? p. 268For from that ſame of hell there is neuer no hope to come foorth. But ſith that it is heere ſpoken of the comming foorth, after they hauehave wholy and fully ſatiſfyed, we cannot doubt, but that the ſame priſon is Purgatorye, in which the ſoules are deteined and kepte in paines, vntill they hauehave fully ſatiſfied for all their ſinnes.

Theophilus.

Sith that thou expoundeſt the priſon in ſuch ſorte, I demaund of thée, who is the Iudge, of whom is héere made men…ion off?

Euſebius.

It is God.

Theophilus.

And who is the aduerſe partie?

Euſebius.

The Diuell.

Theophilus.

And who is The Sargeants of Purgatori…,the Sargent or Miniſter?

Euſebius.

The Angell.

Theophilus.

Thou wilt then ſay that the Angells doo conduct and lead, the ſoules into Purgatorye, to the place of paines and …orments?

Euſebius.

Who then? the Diuels? Shall it be reaſonable, that the faythfull ſhould be put into the hande of the diuell, for to he ſubiect vntounto him whom they hauehave vanquiſhed and ouercome? and puniſhed? by him ouer whom they hauehave triumphed?

Theophilus.

They hauehave not yet wel triumphed, if they be yet ſo deteined and kept in ſinnes, that for them they muſt be kept in a fire, altogether lyke vntounto that ſame of hell, for the time that they are there. Mee thinkes that that office ſhould be more decent and meete for the Diuels, then for the Angells. For it is not lyke to be true, that the Angells ſhould be the hangmen of the ſoules of the faythfull, and that they ſhoulde take pleaſure to impriſon and torment ſo cruellye their neighbours and bretheren, whiche are Citizens of Heauen with them. I hauehave read in the holy Scriptures, that the Angells caryed the ſoule of Lazarus into the beſome L…. 16. b. …0of Abraham, into a place of ioye and reſt, and that they hauehave deliuered Saint Peter and the Apoſtles out of priſon: But I hauehave neuer read that they hauehave lead them Act, … b. 7 …eon. de …tin. ſe… …. d…or. Aut Flo…e…ia Sum.into priſon, nor into places of tormentes, nor that they did leade the rich man into hell.

For as much as your Doctors confeſſe that the Diuels do holde themſelues next to the ſoules of thoſe which are purged in Purgatory, and doe accompany them, for to reioyce themſelues of their torments and to mocke them of the ſame: They may beſt gi…e that office vntounto them, and to exempt and omit the Angells. But what appearaunce hath it with thy expoſition? If the Du…el, or the ſinne ought héere to be vnderſtanded for our aduerſe partye, it followeth then that Ieſus Chriſt commaundeth vsus to agrée and to be at one with the diuel and ſinne. But how can we be agreed with him and with God? Furthermore, he would that that ſame agréement ſhould be done whileſt that one is in the way, that is to ſay, in this lyfe. For after that man is dead, he is out of the way. It muſt then followe that he muſt make héere his good déedes, before he doe dye, for to auoide that priſon of Purgatorye. And the ſame ſhall be for to confirme the prouerbe of the Prieſtes, ſaying: that better is the candle that goeth before, then that Prouerbe The candl… before.that commeth behinde?

Euſebius.

How wilt thou interprete that place?

Hillarius.

Sith that there is an allegory, and that your Doctors doe play ſo with the word of God, I will alſo play and ieſt with them. Firſt, although there were none other reaſon, but that you will heare build the Purgatory vponupon an allegory, it is ſufficient inough, for to ouerthrow and pull downe all your foundation. For there is not a Theologian The vſe of alleg…es.which confeſſeth not but that the Allegoryes are not ſufficient for probation and confirmation of doctrine, whatſoeuer it bée, if it hauehave none other foundation, more cléerer and more playne in the worde of God: but is more proper and fitte for to beautifie and ſet out the matters, to delite and mooue the auditors and hearers, then for to proue and confirme it. For one maye expounde them after diuerſe manners, accordinge to the dexteritie and wit of him which declareth them.

And therefore if I woulde ieſte and playe with the woorde of GOD, as your Doctours doe. I might allegoriſe Expoſition allego…all.and declare that place, expoundinge the Iudge p. 269for the Pope, which is the God Pluto. The aduerſari… for the Prieſtes. For they doe quarrell with vsus alwaies for to get money from vsus, and we can neuer be at one, and agréed with them, except they hauehave al, and that they hauehave eaten vsus quicke and dead. The Sergeaunt that is the Angell and the God Mercury. For according to the Poetical Merc…y.Theologie, he had wings and …aryed the ſoules to hel, and was the God of gayne, of deceipts & larc…nyes as already hath bene touched. Now who leadeth the ſoules into Purgatory, but that S…rgeaunt héere of God Pluto? As the cauſe of the gayne and hope of the money and raunſome which our Merchaunts and aduerſe parties doe looke for? They would gladly that we ſhould agrée with them whilſt that we are in the way, in this preſent lyfe: and that wée ſhould diſtribute vntounto them all our goodes, without leauing any thing, neyther to our children, parents, nor friends. I am very certeine, that after that we hauehave giuen them all, and that there is no more hope to gette any more raunſome of vsus, that there ſhall bée no more priſon for vsus, nor Sergeaunts for to leade vsus thether. Doeſt thou thinke Euſebius, that my interpretation is not as good as thine? I am well aſſured, that as to the ſence and meaning of the words of Ieſus Chriſt, neyther the one nor the other approcheth nigh vntounto it, and leſſe thine then mine: but according to your Theologie, mine is more ſufferable and more true.

Thomas.

Thou wilt then ſay, that the one and the other are nothing worth: and therfore Theophilus, expound vntounto vsus the true ſence and meaning of Ieſus Chriſt.

Theophilus.

We muſt wel note and marke that which Hillarius hath ſayd of Allegories. How much difference there is betweene thi… héere of Ieſus Chriſt, and thoſe which y^• expoſitors do make commonly. For in theſe words The ſence of the vvords of … Ieſus Chriſt.of Ieſus Chriſt, there i… an example & a compariſon wrapped in with an Allegorie. For Ieſus Chriſt would not here declare any other thing, but into what dangers & inconu… niences thoſe doe put themſelues, which had rather to goe to the …igour of right then to agrée friendly with the aduerſe partie, before they doe come to iudgement: to that ende that hée doth the better incitate and ſtirre forwarde men vntounto amitie and brotherly reconcilyation, of which he ſpeaketh in this place. After the ſame forte doth Saint Bretherly re… Ch…ſ… … M…. 5. Homil. 16.Chriſoſtome expounde it, without making any mention of Purgatory, and he alloweth not thoſe which do vnderſtand by the aduerſe partie the diuell, but interpreteth that place o… …lees an… proceſſe. Now our Lord Ieſus the better to moue the hearers to brotherly reconc…lyation, taketh example vppon the pleaders, as if he ſhoulde ſaye: If thy aduerſe partie do bring thée into iudgement, th… canſt doe no better for thy honour and profite, then to agrée with him, before thou proue and try the rigour of right. For if thou agrée friendly with the partie, he may ſhew thée ſome fa…our and forgiue thee the deb…e, and thou ſhalt auoyde the diſhonour, ſhame, and the coſt…s, which is beſtowed vppon the playnts. On the contrary if thou doe not agrée, thou canſt not ſo well auoyde the payment: but the Iudge ſhall know it, and thou ſhal… be condemned and compelled to pay to the vttermoſt all the debt, without rebating one farthing, euen as thoſe which for debt are deteined and kept in priſon, vntill the ende of th… payment. Beholde the example and the ſimilytude which Ieſus Chriſt propounded vntounto vsus, for to bring vsus to reconcilyation. But he declareth not amply that which he would hauehave vsus to vnderſtand by the ſame: but it ſu…ſeth him to hauehave ſet vsus in the way, and he hath opened vntounto vsus the vnderſtanding of that which he would teach vsus, which auayleth as much as if he had ſayd: Whileſt that thou arte yet alyue and that thou haſt time, retourne in grace, and agree with thine aduerſary, that is to ſay with thy brother and neighbour, whome thou haſt offended, and to whome thou art bound. For we are debters, vntounto all thoſ… to whom we hauehave done iniurie and wrong.

And therefore let vsus not ſuffer that the bloude of our brother ſhould demaund ve…geaunce, and delyuer vsus into p. 270the hande of the Iudge. Le…te vsus not tary vntill we bée cy…ed and that the day bee aſſigned vntounto vsus, for to a…peare in his iudgement: But let vsus con…rre our contrauerſies friendly the one with the other, whileſt he giueth vsus leaſure, and he himſelfe as a rightfull arbitrator exhorteth vsus to doe it.

For be we aſſured that if wée doe it not, after that hée ſhall tary long time, he himſelfe will ſet vsus agréed. But that ſhall be to the great coſt and expences and to the great hurte and ſhame of him in whom he ſhall finde the wrong, and who ſhall be the cauſe of the controuerſie, and of the lette and h…deraunce which ſhall be in the agreement.

For he ought to be aſſured that his malyce and obſtination ſhall be vntounto him déere ſolde, and that he ſhall not be abated one onelyonly farthing: for if he be condemned to ſatiſfie to the righteouſneſſe of God, euen to the vttermoſt penny, there is no more hope of health and ſaluation. For ſith that the ſentence is once giuen, and that man is out of this mortall lyfe, there is no more time to demaunde and aſke agréement.

On the other ſide, it is impoſſible that man can euer hauehave wherewith to ſatiſfie God, ſith that thorow his infidelytie & peruer…tie he hath made y^• ſatiſfaction of Ieſus Chriſt vnprofitable for himſelfe. It followeth then neceſſarily y^• that priſon is not purgatory, but hel, which hath The priſon.no iſſue, nor place of raunſome. Wherefore that place concludeth nothing for the Purgatory. And although it be ſayde that man ſhall not come out of that priſon, vntill that he hath payed the vttermoſt farthing, wée muſt not therefore conclude y^• he ſhall come out at any time, but rather that he ſhall neuer come out. For that manner of Do….ſpeaking is very common in the Scripture, and ought to be vnderſtanded as y^• which is written of y^• Rauen which Noe did ſende out, which retourned not agayne: vntil that Geneſ. …, b. ….the waters were dryed vp.

It followeth not therefore that hée retourned agayne at any time afterwards. And Saynt Auguſtine expoundeth that ſame place, eue… as that which is written by that ſame Euangelyſt, ſpeaking of Ioſeph, ſaying, that he knew not the Virgin Mary, Math. …. d 25vntil ſhe had brought foorth hir firſt begotten ſon. We muſt not conclude by theſe words, with Hel…dius, that he hath knowen hir afterwards. For he meaneth none other Helindius.thing, but that he knew hir not, whē ſhe …re Ieſus Chriſt. But it followeth not therefore that he hath knowen hir afterwards: Or otherwiſe he ſhould be forced to conclude, that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall reigne no more, after that he ſhall hauehave put all his enemyes vnderunder his feete, therefore it is written, that the Lord hath ſayd vntounto him: Sitte thou on my right hand, vntill I put all thine enemies thy footſtoole. Pſa. …. ….Thou doeſt then ſée that the expoſition of Saint Auguſtine, ouerthroweth yours. And that which I ſay of that place, muſt be alſo vnderſtanded of that which is writt… afterwards of the ſeruaunt which would not hauehave compaſſion The ſence and me…ning of the parable. Ma…. …. …. …0,vponupon his companion, nor forgiue him the debt. Ther is no difference, but y^• Ieſus Chriſt by that example declareth vntounto vsus, that we muſt not hope to obteine pardon of God, except we hauehave done firſt all our endeauour, to obteine it of thoſe whom we hauehave offended, and to ſatiſfie and become friends agayne with them. Alſo in lyke manner by the other he declareth vntounto vsus, that we ought to hauehave no more hope, if we doe not pardon thoſe which ſhall offend vsus.

Thomas.

We muſt not then, by that reckoning, tary to pay our debts, and to amend the iniuryes done vntounto our neighbours, vntil we be dead, for to make ſatiſfaction afterwardes in Purgatory to the Prieſtes, vntounto whome the wrong was not done and the debts were not due.

Theophilus.

Euen as by that example Ieſus Chriſte exhorteth eueryevery one of vsus, to agree with our neighbour, during this lyfe: So he admoniſheth vsus to doe the lyke towardes GOD, vſing the very ſame ſimilytude in the Goſpell after Saynct Luke: Declaring vntounto vsus thereby, that if wee doe knowe howe to prouide and The … …d meaning of the vvords of Sa…t Luke. …1.Luke 1g…u…rne our affayres and dooinges after the worlde, p. 271and to agrée with thoſe vntounto whom we are bound, for to auoyde the loſſe and inconueniences into which we maye fall, we ought by a more ſtronger reaſon to trauayle to doe ſo with God, whileſt that the time of our viſitation indureth, and that he giueth vsus time and ſpace to agrée with him thorow true repentance. For after y^• the ſentence ſhall be giuen, there ſhall be no more remedie. Thou maiſt then Euſebius knowe, if thou doeſt well vnderſtand the meaning of the words of Ieſus Chriſt, that they doe deſtroy Purgatory, in ſtéede to buylde it. For he giueth vsus no hope that we may take order and remedie for our affaires and buſineſſe after we be dead, but he would that we diſpoſe it both with God, and among our ſelues, before that we departe from hence, and that we appeare before his face.

Thomas.

Thou muſt then ſéeke ſome other way, Euſebius. For as farre as I doe perceiue and ſée, that place will not helpe vppe thy Purgatory.

Euſebius.

Then before we goe out from that Euangeliſt, tell me Theophilus, The place of Sainct Mat. … c 31. Luc. …. b. …0wherefore Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd, that the ſinne agaynſt the holy Ghoſt is not pardoned in this worlde, nor in the world to come.

Theophilus.

That poynt is one of the chiefeſt arguments which your Doctors doe put foorth for the defence of Purgatory. But what wilt thou thereby conclude?

Euſebius.

That which Saint Gregory concluded, who Dialo. 4. D…ſt. 25. ca Qual…s.wayed and marked well thoſe words, and ſayd, that by that ſentence is giuen vsus to vnderſtand, that there are ſome ſinnes, which are pardoned in this world, and others which are in the other world, which out to be purged before the iudgement, and for the which it is to be beléeued, that there is a fire. If in the other worlde there bée forgiueneſſe of ſome ſinnes, it cannot be in Hell. Then of force it muſt be in Purgatory.

Theophilus.

I doe greatly meruayle of that Logicke, which maketh ſuch Silogiſmes and concluſions: That ſin is not pardoned in this world nor in the world to come. There is then ſome which is pardoned in the worlde to come: the which cannot be but in Purgatory. Wherefore there is a Purgatory. There is not a Sophiſter ſo ignoraunt, which ought not to knowe, that according to the rules of their Logicke, one cannot draw a conſequence whatſoeuer it be, of propoſitions altogether negatiues. If then of negatiues, a conſequence negatiue is nothing Ex puris negatiu… nihil ſequitur.worth, how ſhall the affirmatiue be good, ſuch as you woulde héere conclude? Why one you not conclude rather. This ſinne is not pardoned in this world nor in the worlde to come. It ſhall be then neuer pardoned, For if there be a pardon, it cannot be but in this worlde or in the other. The conſequence after this manner ſhould be good. For the Antecedent hath comprehended al the times and places to whome the ſinne may be pardoned.

And after that ſorte doth Saint Marke expounde it, of Mar 3. d 19Mark 3whome the gloſe is more certeine, then yours. For in ſteede of that that Saint Mathew hath ſayd, neyther in this world nor in the other, he hath ſaid: neuer. Wherein it appeareth that thoſe two propoſitions are equiualent and of equalytie. That ſinne is not pardoned neyther in this worlde, nor in the other: and that ſinne is neuer Propoſitions., Eq…poll…is.pardoned. Furthermore, you doe conteſſe, that it muſt bée that the fault of ſinne, the which maketh man ſubiect to dampnation, be alredy pardoned in this world, & that ther remayneth but the payne, the which he muſt beare and ſuffer in Purgatory. For you doe putte none other difference, Di…erſitie of pardons.betwéene the ſoules of the bleſſed which are already at reſt, and thoſe of Purgatory, and the dampned, but that the Saints which are already in Paradiſe, are pardoned of payne and fault. Thoſe which are in Purgatory, are not pardoned but of the fault, but they muſt heare and ſuffer the payne due to ſinne, vntill ſuch time as they hauehave ſatiſfied for it, and that they be perfectly purged.

But yet neuertheleſſe bicauſe that the faulte is pardoned them, their payne is not to them eternall, as the ſame of the dampned, bicauſe that the fault of dampnation is ta p. 272ken away from them, the which abideth and continueth vponupon the reprobate. Now Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh héere of ſinne which dampneth, the which agreeth not but to the reprobate. Wherefore he ſpeaketh of the faulte of ſinne, the which is not pardoned in Purgatory, according to your doctrine, for in the ſame one can but releaſe the payne.

It followeth then, that although that we doe agrée and graunt vntounto you that ther is ſome forgiuenſſe of ſinne in the other worlde, euen as you woulde conclude of the words of Ieſus Chriſt that the ſame ſhould nothing at all relieue and helpe vp your Purgatory. Wée muſt then Sinne againſt the holy Ghoſt.conſider the manner of ſpeaking, by the which Ieſus Chriſt woulde declare, how greate and deteſtable that ſinne is, and to take away all the hope of pardon, vntounto thoſe which in that poynt will reſiſt the truth knowen, and will goe about to quenche and putte out the lyght of the holy Ghoſt, which is offered vntounto them.

And therefore hée was not contented to ſay: that ſinne ſhall neuer be forgiuen and pardoned. But the better for to augment and amplyfie the thing, hée woulde vſe that manner of ſpeaking, which comprehendeth the iudgement of God, the which already eueryevery man féeleth in his conſcience in this lyfe: and that latter iudgement which ſhall be manifeſted in the reſurrection.

Wherefore hee ſayth briefely, that in this ſame lyfe, in the which God hath giuen to man, time and ſpace to conuert and tourne himſelfe vntounto him, that ſinne ſhall neuer be pardoned, and yet leſſe in that latter iudgement, in which God will giuegive his latter ſentence: except peraduenture there were ſome, which in him had ſome hope.

But it followeth not thererefore that he hath forgiueneſſe of any ſinne, in the worlde to come, which ſhall not bée héere pardoned. But to the ende that thou mayſt yet better knowe, that Ieſus Chriſt hath not ſpoken in that ſorte without iuſt reaſon, we muſt conſider that he furniſheth vsus héere with a good witneſſe againſt the Originiſts and Anabapti…s, which doe promiſe forgiueneſſe of ſins Againſt the Crigeniſte…vntounto the Diuells and reprobate in the other worlde. Although I doe not beleeue, that Origines was of ſuch an opinion: For his bookes doe witneſſe vntounto vsus the contrary. But for to retourne vntounto the words of Ieſus Chriſt, ſith that Ieſus Chriſt ſayth ſo cléerely, that that ſinne, which is proper vntounto them, ſhall not hauehave forgiueneſſe in this world nor in the other, it followeth then, that it ſhall neuer hauehave: or els it muſt be that they finde out an other thirde worlde, euen as they hauehave founde out a temporall eternitie, to the which they doe giuegive an ende: and an eternall A temporal eternitie.fire, which is temporall, not perdurable. But although it ſhould be ſo, that there ſhould be in the world to come ſome forgiueneſſe of ſinnes, it followeth not therefore, that it is neceſſary to hauehave there a Purgatory. Now firſt of all there is no certeine witneſſe that there is any remiſſion and forgiueneſſe after this lyfe, but a certeine humayne coniecture and preſumption. Then if that propoſition be buylded vppon humayne coniecture and preſumption, yet that which affirmeth the Purgatory is beſt, ſith that the ſame is none other thing but a coniecture and preſumption, buylded vponupon other coniectures and preſumptions. For put the caſe that there ſhould be forgiueneſſe in the other lyfe, coulde it not be in any other place rather then in Purgatory? or at an other time, then you do there limit? Could it not hauehave bene giuen, either by and by after that one is dead, or delayed vntill the latter iudgement? But which of the auncienteſt doctors of the church is there, that euer hath expounded that place in ſuch ſence as thou takeſt it? Chriſoſtome expeundeth it after this Chriſo. in Mat. 12. …omel, 42Matt 12manner: Sith that that ſinne is not veniall vntounto you, you ſhall be grieuouſly puniſhed both in this lyfe and in the other. He meaneth none other thing by thoſe words, but that the Iewes which reſiſted the holy Ghoſt, ſhall not be only puniſhed in this world, for to be chaſtiſed and corrected 1. Cor. …, 2 … … Luc, 6. c. 23as the Corinthians were: or onelyonly in the other world, as the rich man was: but they ſhall be héere and p. 273there, as thoſe of Sodome and Gomorra. For they were Gen…, …, …, 24deſtroyed by the Romaines, and hauehave not eſcaped eternall dampnation. There is nothing in this expoſition which can ſerue you. Thoſe which are of an opinion, y^• the ſ…les doe abide vncertein of their ſaluation, or dampnation, and that they may yet profit or empaire betwéene this and the great iudgement: In like manner thoſe which doe eſteme and thinke that the goſpel ſhalbe preached vntounto the ſoules of the dead, to which it hath not bene heere declared, ſhall they not hauehave more colour héere to build their reaſons and arguments, then you for your Purgatory? For at the leaſtwiſe, thoſe latter héere ſhal hauehave more appearaunce, a…cording to the ſcripture, bicauſe that they may or can alledge ſome places, which doe ſéeme expreſly inough to fauour that opinion. And yet they hauehave other reaſons very apparant, where you hauehave not but certeine colde coniectures Nowe Ieſus Chriſt, who is the infallible veritie woulde not, that we ſhould builde the articles of our fayth, vppon coniectures, but vponupon the expreſſe veritie. For ſith that he and his Apoſtles doe witneſſe, that they hauehave man…feſted Iohn, 15 Act. 20 …. 20Acts 20:20all that which was neceſſary to our ſaluation, & hath commended to vsus ſo much the louelove towards our bretheren, it is not lyke to be true, but is repugnant to the witneſſe of Ieſus Chriſt, that they hauehave ſpoken vntounto vsus ſo obſcurely, & hauehave giuen vntounto vsus onelyonly ſome coniectures of this matter, and of the louelove that we owe vntounto the dead, the which the Prieſtes doe wreſt it more, then that which is due vntounto thoſe that be liuing.

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſpoken ſo obſcurely, therefore they would make commentaries & gloſes, for to declare it, bicauſe that it bringeth vntounto them more profit.

Thomas.

Thou haſt opened a place, Theophilus, of which I would gladly be reſolued, that is to ſay, Pre…ching to the dead.of the preaching to the dead. For to tell the truth I hauehave oftentimes dreamed & muſed after it, bicauſe that I conſidered, y^• according to the witneſſe of the Scripture, n…ne …ohn, 35…can hauehave ſaluation, but thorowe the faith in Ieſus Chriſt. Now if we do compare thoſe which hauehave knowne Ieſus Chriſt and hauehave beleeued in him, with thoſe which hauehave not beleeued, and which hauehave neuer hard him ſpeake, the number of thoſe here ſhalbe very little, in reſpect of others. Wherefore it followeth, that there ſhould be a merua…lous number of the damned, & that the mercy of God ſhall not be ſo great as his rigor & iudgement. Now it is ſtraunge to mans reaſon, to iudge that God will dampne ſo many, chie…y, ſith y^• he hath had as many which hauehave not known Ieſus Chriſt, for want that one hath not ſhewed him vntounto them. Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of thoſe héere is not much out of reaſon: And I would gladly know what places they can hauehave of the holy Scripture for to proue it, for I will accord and agrée almoſt ſooner to that, then to the opinion of Purgatory.

Theophilus.

Thou haſt moued a queſtion, the whiche cannot be expreſſed and abſolued in few wordes. For we muſt firſt declare what knowledge of Ieſus Chriſt is neceſſary vntounto ſaluation: and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world, among all people & nations: And how it hath ben ſufficiently manifeſted vntounto the elect for their ſaluation, & to the reprobate for their condempnation: Inſomuch that they are all inexcuſable, & they cannot alledge ignorance ſufficient for to excuſe them: And it is not néedfull that they hauehave any more preaching after this lyfe. But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time, that we maye ſpeake more amply of it, and better to ſatiſfie the queſtion which is made dayly, touching the ſaluation or dampnation of our predeceſſors, which hauehave liued in errour and ignoraunce. Yet neuertheleſſe bicauſe that the places, which we hauehave accuſtomed to alledge, for y^• preaching to the dead may alſo ſerue to the matter at this preſent time, I am contented y^• we do entreat of them, for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the ſame: nor the Limbe. nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make thē ſerue. But for that that it may be, that Euſebus p. 274doth put them foorth amongſt his defenſes, it were better that we do delay that matter, vntil ſuch time as he bringeth it in by courſe, in following his matter by order: or if be do it not, thou maiſt put me in remembrance Thomas. Yet neuertheleſſe before that Euſebius purſueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open, I wil propound vntounto him an argument, concerning the point of which we hauehave entreated off, that is to ſay, of the remiſſion & forgiuenes of ſinnes in the other world? Whervpon I demaund of thée Euſebius: when Ieſus Chriſt did giuegive the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vntounto his Church, as wel in y^• perſon of S. Peter as vntounto al y^• church generally, & that he declare the power of them & of the eccleſiaſtical miniſtry, hath he not ſayd namely: That which thou ſhalt The povver of the keyes, Mat. 16 c. 19 &. 18. c. 18Matt 16binde in earth ſhall be bound in heauen, & that which thou ſhalt looſe in earth ſhall be looſed in heauen. He ſayth not: That which thou ſhalt binde or vnbinde, in heauen or in Purgatory, or in hell, or in the other world, or in the other life, and in an other earth, but ſpeaketh of this héere in the which the keys hauehave ben giuen, & in the which the Euangelical miniſtry hath his vigor and ſtrength. I wil not reiterate that that you ſaid of the forgiuenes of fault & paine. For al that is againſt you But me thinketh that the Pope and thoſe that hauehave receiued the power of him, doe verye euill vnderſtand their office, willing to extend and ſtretch the power of their keyes, pardons and indulgences, vntounto The povver of the keyes & the Indulgences for the dead.the other world, and vntounto the dead, which hauehave their eſtate a part and ſeperated from ours, and are no more vnderunder the iudgement of the church which is in earth, which hath not to regard but on the liuing.

Euſebius,

Alexander of Ales, & Gabriel Biel hauehave very wel ſatiſfied y^• obiectiō. For they do In. 4. Sent. Res…erper. de mor virt ſerm. Dom. in ſexa.anſwere, y^• the dead ought to be accōpted, to be yet vpō the earth, as touching y^• abſolutiō or ligatiō: binding or vnbinding, vntil y^• they are paſſed & entred into the kingdome of heauen. For whileſt y^• the ſoules are in purgatory, they are vponupon the earth, ſith that they are not yet in heauē, & that Betvvene vvhether the ſoules of purgatory are prented.they are yet of the Church militant, & not of y^• triumphāt. Furthermore, euen as thoſe which are in the earth are yet in the way, and not at the end & full marke, ſo are thoſe which are deteined in Purgatory: They are in paſſing, for to goe to the countrey, as touching the purgation, by the which they are purged & paſſe to the country, as by y^• way. Although y^• they are at the ende & marke as touching the confirmation. For they can no more ſinne nor merit. Furthermore, all the while that they are ayded, & receiue comfort of the temporall & earthly goods, by prayers, one may well holde & accompt them for to be yet of this world, ſith that they doe communicate with vsus of the goods which are there.

Hillarius.

He will accompt then of the dead, as of the Monkes, which are dead to the world in ſome pointes, Monkes dead to the vvorldbut not in other ſome. They are dead to the world, as to that that they doe ſerue and profit no perſon, no more then the dead. But they are not dead, as to eating and drinking, and to other carnall workes. For in y^• there is not a people which doe better liue in the world, nor which are more of the world. Euen ſo ſhall it be of the dead. They ſhalbe dead to vsus, for to giuegive vsus any more ayde and ſuccour. But they ſhal not be dead for to hurt vsus and to eate & conſume our goods and ſubſtaunce. It is ſaid in a common prouerb: Prouerbe. Mortus non mordent. The dead do byte.That the dead do not bite: But there are none liuing more biting, then ſuch dead men, except the Prieſts and Monks which do become vntounto vsus ſo biting, for to bite vsus vnderunder the name and title of them.

Theophilus.

The Pope aduaunceth himſelfe to be the liuetenant of S. Peter: But wherefore The Pope the … of Saint Peter.doth he attribute vntounto himſelfe the office of S. Peter?

Euſebius.

Bicauſe that S. Peter can no more execute it.

Theophilus.

Wherefore can he no more exerciſe & execute it?

Euſebius.

Bicauſe y^• he is no more conuerſant among the liuing, and bicauſe he hath ended & finiſhed his courſe, and hath ended his miniſtry among men.

Theophilus.

Thou commeſt nowe to the matter. If then Saint Peter hath not belowe the Heauen power to abſolue vsus, nor they of the other worlde, thoſe which are in this heere, how ſhall the Pope hauehave more power, for p. 275ſo abſolue belowe the earth, and they of this world, thoſe Abſolucion of the quick and the dead.which are in the other? Sith that he attributeth vntounto himſelfe the office of ſaint Peter, for that that Saint Peter is abſent from thoſe that are liuinge wherefore … not content himſelfe with the liuinge. What hath he to doe with the dead? If in the other world there be an premiſſion of ſinnes, and the … of the …: … take place, wherefore doth he not leaue … of the ſame vntounto Saint Peter, and to the Prophets, Apoſtles, Martyrs and confeſſors which are there. For if it bée néedfull to pardon ſinnes to the dead in the other world, thoſe which are there preſent, and know their … they not better doe it then the Pope: … which … … ſent, and altogether ignoraunt … eſtate and condition? They ſay that they cannot pardon ſinnes to thoſe that be aliue, nor abſolue them except they confeſſe themſelues vntounto them … to know and iudge of th…m how can they … and giuegive … vntounto the ſoules of the dead, … not, and … confeſſion, nor know whether they be … or not whether they be de…eined …. hell … Purgatorye, or already The office of a Lieutenant.paſſed and arriued into … I … thincke that a liuetenant is … the place of an other; which cannot … prop… perſon. Then if the Pope be the … of Saint Peter: in this world, bicauſe that S. Peter is no more héere, howe can he be his liuetenaunt in the other world, in which Saint Peter is, and he is not? Beholde a ſort of liuetenauntes, the moſt ſtraungeſt that euer was in the world. For in ſtéed to holde and kepe the place, in which they ought to be pr… ſent, in the name of thoſe that are abſent they béeing abſent, would holde the place in which they cannot be in the name of thoſe which are there preſent. Wherefore I would counſayle the Pope and his, to let the dead alone from henceſoorth, and to meddle no more with them, and that they doe leaue the charge vntounto Sain…t Peter and to Math, …. c. 22the other Apoſtles and Saintes which are with them.

Hillarius.

If Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd vntounto one of his Diſciples: let the dead bury the… dead, we may well ſay vntounto thoſe héere: let y^• dead abſolue y^• dead, & be you careful but for thoſe that be ti…ing. For I doe aſſure them, that they ſhall hauehave inough to doe to gouerne the liuing, & they ſhal …nde themſelues more …indled & letted then they thinke, and more then they would. Wherefore I beléeue that they ſhall be forced to let the deade al…ne, and to leaue all the charge vntounto Saint Peter and vntounto his compaignions: or for to ſpeake better … God; which hath both the quick and the dead in his … Wherefore wée hauehave no néede to …men… neither the quicke nor the …end vntounto y^• Saints nor Saintes, …ut … vntounto the Lord Ieſus, who is the Iudge and Sauiour … the Pope ſayth alſo that he is …, I know not what ſhall be his Church. For if the Pope be liuetenaunt of Ieſus Chriſt: and the office of a … is …o holde the place of him that is abſent, it follow… then that I…ſu… Chriſt i… not in the Popiſh Church, but h… … a …. And ſo by that meanes the Popiſh Church ſhalbe without Ieſus Chriſt … without God. Then of neceſſitie it muſt be that the Diuell …, and that be is the …ead and the God, as be is the God of this w…ld. For in the Chriſtian Church, Ieſus Chriſt hath no néede of a …ar neither liuetenant, ſith that he … alwayes preſent, and that he hath promiſed to be in the middeſt of his Diſciples, and with them vntill Mat, 18. c. …0 &. 28. d 20the …nde of the world. Except we will call his …uly ſpirit, his …ear after the imitation of Tertulian bicauſe that it r…igneth in vsus by him, and qiutheneth vsus. …huſebius. Mee thinketh that no reaſon can perſwade …. For the aunſwere … I hauehave alledged vntounto you of Alexander of Ales, hath already ſatiſfied all your obiections and replyings, … although that S. Peter and the Apoſtles are in the other world, they are not therefore in Purgatory.

Wherefore their miniſtrie & their power of their …eyes, cannot be ſtretched & pulled out the …her, but are in heau…, in which ther is no more néede.

Theophilus.

Alſo, … more p. 276is the Pope neither the prieſts. I know not whether that The keyes of Saint Peter & the Pope.their key be longer, then that of Saint Peter, or whether that there were more ſpace from the heauen vntounto Purgatory, then from y^• earth.

Hillarius.

But how knoweſt thou, whether that Sain… Peter hath caryed his key with him or …. For if the Pope hauehave it, Saint Peter hath it no more.

Theophilus,

Saint Peter had two names, and was called before Symon, Now I beléeue in déede, that the Pope may hauehave the keyes of Symon, not of Simon Peter, but of Simon Peter. Mat. 16. c. 19 Iohn. 1. …. 42Matt 16John 1Simon Magus: the which argée not with the true …oore, which is Ieſus Chriſt: nor with the true locke which is the word of God, the which is …o the true key of knowledge The keyes of Symon. Iohn. 10. …. 7 Luc. 11. g. 52John 10Luke 11for to open vntounto vsus the kingdome of heauen.

Thomas.

He hath then chaunged the key.

Theophilus.

There is nothing truer.

Thomas,

And his, to what doore doth it agrée?

Hillarius.

VntoUnto that of the cofers … ſcrips, for to ſtuffe and fill them,

Thomas.

Then Purgatory is in our purſes.

Hillarius.

We hauehave ſufficiently pre…ed it. Purgatery of purſes.For they hauehave ſo well purged vsus, that thou wil… ſay that they are made of the … of the D…ell. For any one croſſe may not …ary in it, where that Purgatory is.

Thomas.

It muſt be called then from hencefoorth, Pag… tory, Pagatore.or purge purſe. Now if the Purgatory be ſo …e, it is not now néedfall that the key be too long for to open it. But whatſoeuer it be, the Popes hauehave ben y^• ſubtileſt lockyers, & the greateſt …othſmiths y^• euer was in the world. The great lockyer.For ther was neuer none, as farre as I can ſee, which hath made and counterfaited more keyes, nor which hath made them to agrée better to all locks.

Hillarius.

The experience doth witneſſe it.

Theophilus.

I do think yet vponupon an other reaſon, againſt y^• of Euſebius. If thou wilt limit y^• miniſtry The prieſthod of the dead.of Saint Peter and of the Apoſtles, within the compaſſe of heauen, and wilt not ſuffer their power to bée ſtretched foorth euen to the confins and ende of Purgatorye, at the leaſt thou ſhalt not denye mée, but that there be ſome Popes, Cardinalls, Biſhoppes, Prieſtes, and Monkes in Purgatory, … thou wilt ſay y^• the… do …o all ſtraight way into paradiſe, or into …. Now if, they be in Purgatory, wherefore …e ye not ſuffer them to hauehave that office, in the places, where they are preſent.

Euſebius.

Bicauſe for that they are ſinners as others are and ſubiect vntounto one iudgement they are of the ſame condition as the others, and they cannot giuegive them that whereoff they themſelues hauehave néede, and cannot hauehave it for them, Furthermore, as ſoone as they are dead, they are depriued from that office.

Hillarius.

I hauehave two reaſons for to beate downe thy aunſwere: The firſt is that I am abaſhed, that the Pope and his doe attribute vntounto themſelues the power to pardon all ſinnes, how great and wicked ſoeuer they bée, yea, all Sodomy, and if néede hée, the ſinne againſt the holy Ghoſt, notwithſtanding that it bée irr…miſſible, and doe giuegive bul… and pardons for all, ſo that one doe bring them money, and that they hauehave alſo power to pardon the ve…all ſinnes in Purgatory. For according to your own doctrine, none are there deteined and kept but for the veniall ſinnes. For the mortall ſinnes, hauehave no purgation in the other world, but they muſt bee puniſhed in hell. And as to that that thou ſayeſt, that they are ſinners, and ſubiect to the ſame paines in Purgatory, ſo are they in this worlde, and leaue not off therefore to abſolue themſelues the one to the other, although they ſhoulde hauehave killed Father and Mother: and ſo make themſelues The papiſticall creame. Character indelibilis.as white as the Collyers. Furthermore, you doe call the impreſſion of your Creame and holy Oile with whiche you doe anointe the Priſtes, when they doe take their orders, Charector indelibilis, that is to ſaye, a marke and a ſigne which cannot be put out nor defaced. If it be ſo, the P…ieſtes dooe abide and remaine alwayes Priſtes, although they be dead. For you will not confeſſe, that that impreſſion and marke is onelyonly done vntounto the bodye: But you doe affirme, that it penitrateth and pearceth euen to the ſoule: of which it can neuer be defaced nor abolyſhed, yet neuertheleſſe thou knoweſt better then I.

p. 277Theophilus.

They doe attribute vntounto it ſuch vertue, that they doe affirme for cert…ine, that a pr…eſt, notwithſtanding ſo. Chaneſ. de ſacra. Corp. Ch….that he be an heriticke, or an apoſtate, or deſgraded, yet neuertheleſſe be ſhall hauehave power alwayes to conſecrate the body of God, as well as others, if he doe pronounce the ſacramentall wordes vppon the hoaſt, with the intencion to conſecrate.

Hillarius.

Beholde yet to confirme better my purpoſe I do not doubt for my parte, but that that Character is the marke, wherewith is marked the conſcience of thoſe The burning of the conſience 1. T…oth, 4. …. 2.which ſhall giuegive héede vntounto ſpirits of errour and deuiliſh doctrine, and which are Apoſtates of the faith, according to the prophecie of ſaint Paul. That is the marke of the great whore of Babylon without which one cannot ſell The marke of the vvhore. Apoc. 13. c. 8Rev 13nor buy, nor hauehave any place in the Popiſh Church. That is a marke cleane contrary, vntounto that which the Angell printed in the foreheads of the elect of God. Nowe ſith Apoc. 7. …, 4Rev 7that the Apoſtles of Ieſus Chriſt, and the true biſhoppes and prieſts, which by them were ordayned, hauehave not had that Cautor that is to ſay Marke (I had thought to hauehave ſaid Charecter) I am not abaſhed, if they hauehave not ſuch power in the other worlde, as the Pope hath in the ſame and in this. But it is an other thing of him and of his which do departe out of this worlde, with this Cauter (I doe beguile my ſelfe alwayes) I doe ſay The example of Fryer Roger.with that Char…ter, which they do beare alwayes with them. Wherfore they ought to hauehave no leſſer power there then here. And y^• ſame I wil proue by y^• example of Frier Rogers a C…rdelier, which is recyted in the booke of the conformities of ſaint Fraunces. It is there written, that after that he was deade, he appeared vntounto a certeine woman, who confeſſed vntounto him all hir ſinnes, & hée gaue hir obſolution. If h… being deade had the power to come to heare the confeſſion of the lyuing, and to abſolue them, wherefore ſhall not his other compagnions béeinge deade hauehave, and chiefely the Popes and Byſhoppes, who hauehave ordained them and confirmed them, as much power among the dead? Furthermore, if according to the witneſſe of your Doctors, others may ſatiſfie for vsus, not onelyonly during our lyfe, but alſo after y^t we be dead, wherfore Tho. diſt. …5 q. 2. & diſt. 20 q. …. ar. 3. & diſt. 4…. q. 4. ar. 1.cannot we after that we be dead ſatiſfie for our ſelues, and to cauſe Maſſes to be ſong in Purgatory, ſith that there are ſo many Prieſt's Popes, and Biſhops for to doe it? What thinkeſt thou Thomas.

Thomas.

Thou ſayeſt well. But I thinke that they cannot hauehave their hoaſts and ſinging cakes.

Hillarius.

Yet they had neuertheleſſe fire inough for to ſéethe or bake their gods.

Thomas.

If it be ſo, as they ſay, there is too much. And therefore I thinke that they cannot hauehave hoaſts, chalyces, aulters, nor veſtements. For the fire will ſchorch and conſume it all.

Hillarius.

Thou makeſt a good reaſon. But by that compt, how can the bulls and pardons of the Pope be kept and preſerued from the fire, which are ſent thether by hole cart loades, & which ſome do cauſe to be buried with them, for to cary them thether, ſith that they are but paper and parchment? The bulles in purgatoryAſmuch may we ſay of the rule and habite of Saint Fraunces. What ſayeſt thou Theophilus.

Theophilus.

There is yet an other poynt. If they will ſay that thoſe which are in Purgatory, can no more merite, neyther for themſelues, nor for others, they cannot ſay the lyke (without ſpeaking agaynſt the doctrine, which they hauehave giuen vsus) of y^e ſaints which are in Paradiſe. For they doe affirme, that they pray vntounto God for vsus, & that they are our interceſſors & aduocates towards The interceſſiō of the Saints for vsus.him, and that in ſéeing God, which ſéeth all things, they doe ſee all as in a Mirrour or looking glaſſe. If they doe pray for vsus which are yet in this lyfe, bicauſe of the great Grego. Rat. … off. …. 7 Rub. de off. Mort.louelove and charitie that they hauehave towards vsus, wherefore do they not alſo willyngly pray for their bretheren deteyned and kept in the fire of Purgatory? For they ſhoulde hauehave a greate deale more reaſon to doe that, if they had anye care or charge of menne. And that for manye cauſes.

p. 278Firſt that the eſtate and condition of the one and the other agréeth more, then it doth of the dead to the lyuing. Secondly, bicauſe that they themſelues can better perceiue of their eſtate and condition, and whether they bée more in payne, or whethether they be out of it, then we. For there is more agréeing of the ſpirits to the ſpirits, which are ſeperated from the bodye, then to vsus which are yet wrapped in them. And which is more, if y^t the ſoules of Aug. li. de …ur. pro mor. Agen. 13. q. 2 Fatendum Ra…. d…. off. R…b. de off. mor.Purgatory doe know, eyther by diuine reuelation, or by the report of Angells, or of y^e ſoules of them which dayly doe depart out of this worlde, that which is done vppon earth, as your Doctors doe teſtifie and affirme, can they not aſwell reporte and tell vntounto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory? It is not lyke to be true, i… there bée any, but that they are better aduertiſed then we, and that many wayes. And if they be aduertiſed, I cannot beléeue, that they are ſo inhumayne and vngentle, if they doe pray for the lyuing, but that they doe pray a great deale more for thoſe poore ſoules: ſith that they are in ſo gréeuous torments, without any compariſon that may be in the world. I doe ſpeake alwayes according to your doctrine. And this is the thirde reaſon, by the which I will conclude agaynſt the Prieſtes, eyther that the Saints doe not praye for the lyuing: or y^e it is in lyke manner neceſſary and a great dele more néedeful that they pray for the dead. Now if they pray for the dead, I am of an opinion, that we leaue vntounto thē al the charge. For it agreeth better to them then vntounto vsus, ſith that they are no more of this world, but of the other, in which are thoſe that are dead: and that we hauehave no more cure and charge but of the lyuing. If they will deny that they doe not pray for the dead, I hauehave more iuſt and lawfull reaſon to deny vntounto them, that they doe not pray for the lyuing: Except peraduenture they would ſay, that the Saintes were as cruell, as th… which will ſuffer thoſe poore ſoules alwayes to burne, which do bring vntounto them no money.

Hillarius.

Thou haſt put foorth very ſtrong reaſons.

But I will a little helpe Euſebius, to defende his cauſe, and will propounde and put forth reaſons againſt th…e to which thou ſhalt hauehave much a doe to aunſwere. Thou ſpeakeſt of the ſaints, what wilt thou ſaye, if I proue vntounto thée by liuely & ſtrong reaſons, that the Pope The Pope hath more povv…r … the ſa…tshath more power and authoritie then they?

Theophilus.

That ſhould be an other …atter.

Hillarius.

I will make thy ſelfe confeſſe it. Who hath more power and authoritie, either God or the ſaints?

Theophilus.

There néedeth not an aunſwere vntounto thy queſtion. For one may vnderſtande it without ſpeaking. There is not a Papiſt, but will …aſely confeſſe, that there is not a ſaint, which hath vertue nor power, but ſo much as God will giuegive vntounto him.

Hillarius.

I hauehave my meaninge, and I will nowe make thée ye…de thy ſelfe vanquiſhed. For thou haſt alreadie confeſſed vntounto me of thine owne prop… mo…th, & haſt co…firmed my propoſition, the which I …l yet better proue vntounto thee, and I will conclu…e all our diſpu…a…ion in a little ſillogiſme. And I will take for my Maior and for the firſt propoſition of my antecedent, that which thou haſt confeſſed vntounto me. Take then my Syll…giſme. God hath more power and authoritie then the Saintes. Nowe the Pope is God. …go, the Pope hath more power Syllogiſm….and authoritie then the Saints. The Maior is alreadie confeſſed by thee. It reſteth now but for to pr…ue the Minor, and the ſecond propoſition: and afterwards the conſequence and concluſion ſ…albe cert…ine and …uby…able. Nowe but that the Pope is God in …arth, thou ca…ſt not d…ny…ſt, for many reaſons, the which I will not n…we The pope is god … … more then god.ſh…we forth. But I will do more. For I will pr…ue, that he is not onelyonly the God on earth, but which is more, in heauen and in hell, and that he doth make things which God neuer did make.

Theophilus.

By that accempt, the Pope then ſhall not hauehave not only more power then the Saints, but more then God himſelfe.

p. 279Hillarius.

It is very true, and thou thy ſelfe ſhalt Iudge it, prouided that thou do heare my reaſons. I will not alledge for confirmation of my theame, that which ſaint Paul hath written of Antechriſt, the man of ſinne, Antechriſt. 2. Theſſ. …, 2. …. …the ſonne of perdition, which exalteth himſelfe aboue all that is called god, or which is worſhipped, ſo y^• he ſhal ſit as god in the Temple of God, and ſhew himſelfe as God: Notwithſtanding that that Prophecie and titles doe agrée meruaylouſly well to that God of whom we ſpeake. But I will procéede by an other way, the which ſhall ſerue for an expoſition of thoſe words of Saynt Paul.

Theophilus.

If thou doeſt as thou ſayſt the Pope and all the Papiſts ſhall be much bounde vntounto thée. For they ſay onelyonly that he is God in earth. Now if he be but God in the earth, he hath then nothing in heauen: And he muſt not open the gates of Paradiſe vntounto the ſoules of Purgatory. And ſo I may ſerue my ſelfe with their publyque witneſſe, for to proue that which I ſaid of his keyes, which cannot be ſtretched foorth out of this earth.

Hillarius.

A man may eaſely reply thereon. For according to their doctrine, Purgatory is in the earth. Wherefore, ſith hat he is God in earth, he may well hauehave ſome power. There ſhould be an other reaſon, if Purgatory were The place of Purgatory. Plut. l…. de fa… qu… v…ſitur in Luna….betweee the Moone and the earth, where Plutarch putteth it: except they will ſay that with the earth they doe alſo compare the ayre and all the other elements, making the Pope aſwell God in the ayre, water and fire, as in the earth: at the leaſt thou wilt not deny, but that he may wel hauehave the keyes of hell, for to leade thether the ſoules: and The keyes of hell.that he is the God of the ſame, if it be in the center of the earth, according to the common opinion of his Doctors. But for to come vntounto the matter, thou which art a Theologian knoweſt, that there be two manner of wayes to The maners to knovv God …xod. …. … 23 To ſee God bef…re & …ſee and know God. There is a manner to ſée him before: a… a manner to ſee him behinde. To ſee him before, that is to ſay in his beeing, glory, and maieſtie, it is not giuen vntounto mortall man. For he ſhall not be capable of ſuch viſion and knowledge. And therefore hée aunſwered vntounto Moſes, who deſired to ſee his glory, that he ſhould not ſée … …o. …. …. 20it before, but he would ſhew vntounto him onelyonly his hinder and backe parts. I doe vnderſtand and meane according to that which I hauehave learned of ſome Theologians, that to ſee and know the backe partes of God, that is to ſee and know him by his workes, by his effects, and in his creatures. For ſith that he is incomprehenſible vntounto man in his ſubſtaunce, glory and maieſtie, the way and manner that he hath giuen vntounto man for to know him, is this: to witte, by his word: by his workes: by his effects: and his creatures: with which man ought to content himſelfe without enquiring curiouſly of the nature and eſſence of God, the which we cannot comprehende. vvhat knovvledge of god is neceſſary for vsusFor we hauehave no neede to enquire what …e is in himſelfe: but what he is towards vsus: the which he hath manifeſted vntounto vsus chiefely by Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne: by the workes that hée hath done and made in him & by him, and that he doth alwaies. And y^e maner of knowledge, after the maner of y^e ſpeaking Argument A poſterioriof y^e dialecticians & Logitians, may be called A poſteriori. I will then proue A poſteriori, the deite of y^e Pope: that is to ſaye, by his workes and by his effects.

Thomas.

I will make heere a lyttle incident or ſtate. Thou haſt now altogether aſtemed mée, in hearing thée ſpeake. For thou art runne more déeper and profounder in Theologie, then euer Theophilus hath yet done, which neuertheleſſe is a better Diuine and Theologian then thou art.

Hillarius.

I hauehave alſo learned the greateſt parte of that which I know of Theologie of him. But I woulde alſo that thou ſhouldeſt know, that notwithſtanding that you doe accompt me but for a foole and a babler, yet I am notwithſtanding ſome thing wiſer then you doe thinke, but that wiſdome continueth not with mee much.

For I will now caſt my ſelfe into an other Theologie, contrary vntounto this. Yet neuertheleſſe for to enter therevnto, and the better to declare the difference that is betwéene p. 280the diuine Theologie and the Theologie Papall, I will beginne my probation by the author…tie of Ieremie ſaying: Iere. 1…. d. 20Jer 1Can a man make thoſe his gods? He rebuketh the Idolatrie of the people of Iſrael, and therefore he maketh that Man making gods.demaund, as of a thing impoſſible. For how can a man make gods, ſith that he cannot be made himſelfe, if God doe not make him? How ſhal he then make gods?

Yet neuertheleſſe the Pope attributeth that power vntounto himſelfe. Wherefore it muſt néedes be that he be more then man: yea more then God. For we doe not read that God did euer make gods, to take God in his proper ſignification. For he alone will be God, and there can be no more but one alone: or otherwiſe he ſhould not be God. Except One onelyonly god. Deut. 6. …. 4Deut 6we will doe as Plato, to hauehave a great God, which maketh other lyttle gods. Therefore hath he ſayd that he is God, Pſa. 42. …, … &. 48 …Ps 42and that he will not giuegive his glory and power to none other. But the Pope taketh authoritie and power not onelyonly to make Gods and Saints, but alſo to vnmake them agayne: the which I will proue vntounto thée briefely. And without alleadgeing many examples for to auoyde proli… itie, I will put foorth but one, by which one may iudge of the others. I will take Boniface the eight of whom Platin giueth this witnes, for y^• ep…loge & concluſion of his legend, Boniface the ….ſaying: In this ſort & maner died Boniface, he which enforced himſelf more to giuegive terror & fear vntounto emperors, kings princes, nations & people, then to induce & lead thē in religion: & which endeuoured himſelf to giuegive & take away kingdomes: to chaſe & baniſh men & to bring them againe at his To take avvay and giuegive …ingdome….pleaſure: hauing more greater thirſt and deſire of the gold, the which he got out of al parts, more then one could declare. Now this differeth not from that which the Decrées and Canons d… witneſſe of the power. of the Pope, ſaying: That it aperteineth vntounto him that he may giuegive, take away, chaunge tranſport the empires & kingd…ms, principalites & ſ…ig…or…es, as many amōg thē of long time hauehave practiſed, and ſhewed by effect, of whom the examples ſhalbe to long to rehearſe. Now we cannot deny, but that y^• ſame is an act proper vntounto God alone, according to the witneſſe of Dan…el … …, 3, 4. …and of all the Prophets. Sith then that the pope vſurpeth vntounto himſelfe, that is already a c…rt…ne witneſſe of his de…tie: And without abandoning and forſaking Boniface, Plat in …it. B…f 8 … …ing of …he himſelfe did not ſh…w himſelfe ne…lygent in that matter, agaynſt Philip king of Fraunce, of whom he demaunded the Arch…a…ry of Na…bon, for to declare vntounto him, that if he did not releaſe out of pr…ſ…n a Biſh…ppe which by him was ſent thether, that his kingdome was co…a… vntounto the Church, and that the king was excommunicated and curſed: and that he would delyuer and abſolue all the Frenchmen of the oath and f…a…t… that they made vntounto the king.

Theophilus.

Behold there a goodly acte of deitie. But there is nothing which is more common vntounto them then that.

H…ll…rius. I will yet declare vntounto thée of others which are no leſſe aua…leable, the which Plati… rehearſeth in like maner. What do y^• words ſignifie y^• he ſayd vntounto Prochet the Archbiſhop of Genes, when he did caſt down himſelfe Prochet Archbyshoppe of Genes. … d… …. … The aſ…hes of pope Bo…ace, Me…eto homo. quia … …, & … … reuer…r…. G…bell…s. Memeto hom… quia G…bell… … …, & cum Gibell… … re…r….at his f…te vponupon Aſhwed…ſday? Wher the Prieſts were accuſtomed to ſay: Remember man that thou art aſhes, and into aſhes thou ſhalt …etourne agayne: he ſayde vntounto him, in chaunging ſome words: Remember man that thou art a Gibell… and with the Gibelli…s thou ſhalt retourne into aſhes. And after that he had ſayd vntounto him that, hée did not put the aſhes vponupon the head as the cuſtome is, but did caſt them in his eyes, and depriued him of his Archbiſhoprick…: Afterwardes he reſtored …t to him agayne, when he did vnderſtand that the Card…als were n…t … red and come from Genes. Thou doeſt héere ſ… that hée maketh and vnmaketh Biſhops, as he lyſt, and ſpeaketh as a God: He maketh men to r…t…n… into aſhes, euen as from aſhes they came. And for to make that goodly act ſhew the fayrer, I wil rehearſe vntounto the two others, which are yet more better witneſſes of the Popiſh d…tie.

The firſt is of Stephen the ſixt, who wa… ſo mad againſt p. 281The …g… …ndPope Formoſus, that after that he had taken his counſel, madneſſe … Pope Stephen againſt …o…oſus.cauſed his body to be taken out of his tombe, afterwardes ſpoiled him of his pontifical & Popiſh apparel, and in ſtéed of them cauſed him to …ée cladded with laye mens apparell, and did cut off the two fingers of the right hande, the which the Prieſtes vſed in their conſecration, afterwards, cauſed them to be caſt into the …ud Tiber, and commaunded that he ſhould be buryed as a lay man, in the graue and burial o… y^• lay men. Now conſider, …f one Pope hath ſuch power ouer an other Pope, which neuertheleſſe is God, and not onelyonly God, but can make God, and vnmakers of Goddes, which doe take power of him to make Gods, let vsus thinke what power hée can hauehave ouer others. For in the time that Formoſus was Pope, he could not hauehave bene in the Popedome, nor in the order of Prieſthoode, but y^• hée did make Gods, of his two fingers which were cut off, and caſt into Tyber. Furthermore, how many Cardinals, Biſhops, Prieſtes, and Monkes were made Plat. in vit. Steph. …. St…ll… …leri…or… O …e…era…d… ſacerd…tum dign…tas, ſi digne & ſacerdo ta…er vixeris …ntra quorum manus, velut in v…ero virginis, filius d…i incarnatur. Item. Iſte qui crea…t me, ded…t m…hi crear… ſ…. Qui crea…it …e ſine me, creatur med…ante me. The creatours of the Cr…a…ourduring his Popedome: which all of them were forgers, and makers of Gods? And yet neuertheleſſe they could not hauehave that power but of him. Wherefore one might rightly ſay of him: The Lord, the God of Gods. For there is not a Prieſt of how ſmal learning ſoeu…r he be, which according to their doctrine, but dareth to attribute vntounto himſelfe the power to make Gods. For which I will hauehave none other witneſſe, but their booke, intituled Stella clericorum, in which are written ſuch woordes: O howe venerable is the dignitie of the Prieſts, betwéene whoſe handes the ſonne of God is incarnate, as in the wombe of the Virgin: And afterwardes ſpeaking… …n the perſon of the Prieſt. Hee which hath created mée, hath giuen me power to create him. Hée which hath created me without mée, is created by the meanes of mée. Afterwardes, hée concludeth: ſith then that the Prieſt is of ſo greate a dignitie, that hée is the creator and maker of his creator, and of eueryevery creature, it is not conuenient to looſe or damne him. They do… finde it inconuenient that God ſhould damp…e the prieſts, bicauſe that they are the creators Item Cum ergo tā …e dignitatis ſit ſacerd… quod creator ſit ſui creator…, & tot… creaturae, ipſū perdere vel damnare incō uenien… eſt. Vnde Iſidorus. Sicut patrem interficere filiū impoſ…bile eſt, ſie creatorem perdere creaturam in conuenient eſt. Sylla & Mar…is.of hun. And yet neuertheleſſe the popes may wel condempne the popes, yea, out of this world, ſithence that they are before God their ſouereigne Iudge, which are not onelyonly prieſts, but which is more, doe make the prieſts. Doeſt thou finde this ſtraunge Thomas?

Thomas.

To ſpeake the truth, thoſe Gods doe handle very euill the one the other.

Hillarius.

I doubt not but that which pope Stephen hath done vntounto Formoſus, doth not ſéeme ſtraunge vntounto thée. But pope Sergius the third hath done vntounto him worſe.

Thomas.

Then that poore ſoule Formoſus was moſt vnhappy after his death. They hauehave done againſt the prouerbe, which forbiddeth to fight with the dead.

Hillarius.

Thou maiſt hauehave well ſayd it, if thou hadſt heard the hiſtory all out. The crueltie of L. Sylla againſt Marius was not ſo great. But I thincke neuertheleſſe but that thoſe popes hauehave takē their patron vponupon him. For ſo did he cauſe Marius to be taken out of y^• earth after y^• he was dead to be auenged of him. And Sylla fearing that one ſhould not doe to him the like after he was dead, commaunded that his body ſhould be burned. For vntill his time the famelly of which he came off, accuſtomed to bury the bodyes of the dead, and had not as yet burned them as others did. But for to retourne vntounto Sergius, thou muſt vnderſtande. Firſt, that he hath ſo reproued all the actes of Formoſus, that thoſe whom Formoſus did make prieſtes, ſhoulde retourne Plat. In vit…. Serg. 3. Sergius & Fermeſus.againe to take their orders of him, iudging thoſe vnworthy to be prieſts whom Formoſus had made, if they did not the ſame. And not being content to hauehave done that diſhonour vntounto Formoſus after his death, cauſed his body to be taken out of the ſepulchre againe, and did not onelyonly cut off the fingers, or the hand, as Stephen his predeceſſor did, but did cut of his head as a malefactor, euen ſo as though he were a liue. Afterwardes did caſt the body into the ſtud …yber, as vnworthy of buriall and humaine honour. …hou canſt not now denie Theophilus, but that the popes hauehave power …oth ouer the Gods, and ouer the quick p. 282and the dead. And for more greater confirmation hereoff, To excommunicate the dead. 2. 4. q. Sane. 2they hauehave their Canons, which do giuegive vntounto them power to iudge, not onelyonly the quicke but alſo ouer the dead, and to excommunicate & accurſe the hereticks, but which to more, Pope Boniface hath better declared his diuine power, againſt S. Harman, whoſe body and bones he cauſed to bee Herman condempned by the Pope. Plat. in vit. Boniſ. 8.digged vp, whō thoſe of Ferrara hauehave honoured & accompted for a Saint already the ſpace of xx. yeares, & condempned him for an heretick, and burned him: As ſome ſay that they hauehave alſo done y^• like of wikchf, who neuertheles was of better learning thē his aduerſaries. But that ſame is alwaies common to all the papiſtical ſect, as de Roma the defiler of the faith hath well confirmed it thoſe yeares paſt, in two poore faithfull Chriſtians at Aix in Prouence. Hée hath ſtocked & impriſoned them ſo much, & hath ſo ſcorched and burned their feete & anckles within their bootes, which he filled with greaſe, and ſo putting to fire, that thoſe poore people & martyrs of Ieſus Chriſt could not tary the time to be altogether burned, but they died whileſt that he was abſent, & were buried by y^• hangmā in vnhallowed ground, bicauſe that they were accompted by them for heretickes. Yet neuertheleſſe that cruel tyrant de Roma could not be …f …oma the …hler of the …aith.contented w^t all that, but was very angry bicauſe they buried them, & cauſed thē to dig thē vp againe, & to burne the being dead, ſith y^• he could not burne thē being aliue. On y^• contrary, euen as Boniface, hath cauſed this S. Ha…man to be digged vp & to be condemned for an hereticke & bu…ned Saint Herman.him, who neuertheleſſe was accōpted for a Saint… he hath alſo canoniſed S. Lewes, who was of y^• bloud roial, who as Saint Levves. canonized.ſome men ſay, was profeſſed of y^• order of S. Fraunces. Alſo in like manner, pope, Felix & Gregory hauehave ordeined that one ſhould celebrate yearely, feaſts & ſacrifices in y^• memory of y^• martyrs. Now what other thing is y^• but to iudge thē ſaints & to deify them? But to y^• end y^• eueryevery one do not attribute vntounto themſelues the power to make Gods as the popes, & that eueryevery one do not honor him y^• cōmeth in their fantaſy. Pope Alexander y^• third hath ordeined y^• no man ſhould be holden and accompted for a Saint, and that no diuine honour ſhoulde be attributed vntounto him except that he were firſt inrolled among the Saintes and canoniſed, by the commaundement and ordinaunce of the Apoſtolical ſeate. That commaundement and degrée is written in the decretals, in the title of the reliques of Saints. Sith then that he canoniſeth and maketh Saintes, afterwards when they are made he vnmaketh them, it followeth then that he maketh and vnmaketh the Gods, & that he is Iudge both of the quicke and of the dead. For all that is God vntounto man to whom he giueth the honour due vntounto God. Now we cannot denie but that the ſuperſtitious and Idolaters do giuegive vntounto their Saintes and vntounto dead men, the …onor Dead men the gods vntounto Idolaters.due vntounto God alone. Wherefore it followeth that they are their Gods, as well as to the Idolaters, thoſe whom they hauehave accompted for Gods, which neuertheleſſe were dead men, which hauehave ben canoniſed by the kings, Princes and Senates, and the cōmon errour of the people, euen as the Herodia. li. 4.pope & the ſuperſtitious do yet vſe at this day. Sith then that the pope maketh and vnmaketh ſuch Gods, which are dead men, and iudgeth, condempneth, and abſolueth them, it followeth then that he is the Iudge of the quicke & the dead: the which is alſo declared, by the example of y^• Emperour Henry y^• fourth, who was excōmunicated: afterwards was put into a cruel priſon, in y^• citie of Liege, by his proper Henricus. 4.and onelyonly ſonne, in the which he was ſtrangled: and ſo as many do affirme, by the commaundement of his owne ſonne, who ſecretly ſent vntounto him the hangman. And therfore for that he dyed excommunicated, hée was not buryed in the holy ground, vntil that he was abſolued and deliuered from his excōmunicating, after his death, by y^• pope: by y^• meanes of which abſolution, hée was caried to Spire, to the ſepulchre of his fathers. Wilt thou now deny, that the pope hath not more power then the Saintes, & that he is not greater Lord then Ieſus Chriſt, & aſmuch to be feared or rather more then God? For Ieſus Chriſt hath ſaid, & witneſſed …rely, that his kingdome is not of this world.

p. 283But the Pope will hauehave it both in this world and in the other. Furthermore, he admoniſheth vsus not to feare thoſe Math, to, c. 28which can but onelyonly kill the body and do no more, but let vsus feare him onelyonly which is able to deſtroye both body and ſoule and to caſt them into hell. Sith then that the Pope attributeth vntounto himſelfe ſuch power, that after that y^• he hath killed the bodyes, he perſecuteth ſtil the ſoules after the body is dead, and excommunicateth the dead and ſendeth them into hell, who will deny that he is not God, and that he may not vſe the authoritie of his keyes, as well towardes the dead, as towards the liuing? And that his buls and pardons doe not extend and ſtretch foorth vntounto The vertue of the bulles and pardons.the dead and to the ſoules of Purgatory? As it appeareth by the doing of Pope Sixtus the fourth, Innocent the eight, Paſcale the fift, Caliſtus, and a great many other Popes which hauehave giuen full remiſſion by their buls and indulgences both to the quicke and the dead: And oftentimes for ſmall cauſes: As for to goe and viſite a certeine Chappell: to make a certeine voyage, and other like matters: But vponupon condition, that he hauehave alwayes ready money. And the better to witneſſe that Popiſh deitie, Pope Boniface the eight would not hauehave his Iubile among the Iubile of the Pope. Plat in vit. Bemſ. 8. …ubile of God. Leuit. 5, b. 11Lev 5Chriſtians, as God had it amonge the Iſraelites, but of an other ſort. For God ordeined the yeare of the great Iubile, from fiftie yeares to fiftie yeares, for to comfort the poore people: for to render and reſtore the wages and poſſeſſions vntounto the poore that are in debt: for to deliuer the poore bondmen out of ſeruitude & bondage, and for to prefigure and foreſhew the yeare of grace, and the deliuerance & liberty which Ieſus Chriſt ought to bring vntounto the Chriſtian people, according to the propheſie of Eſay and of the Luc, d. c, 16 Eſa. 61, a, …Isa 61other prophets. But the Pope Boniface in the yeare 1300 as if Ieſus Chriſt was not come, and that he had not by his comming declared vntounto vsus the yeare of y^• great Iubile, which ſhall indure vntill the ende of the worlde, & by the which we are affranchiſed frō the ſer…tude of ſinne, death, diuell, and of hell, as putting himſelfe in the place of Ieſus Chriſt, hath conſtitute… his Iubile, by the which he hath promiſed full remiſſion of ſinnes, vntounto all thoſe which will come viſite at Rome the Chu…ch of Saint Peter, and of Saint Paul: And hath commaunded that it ſhould be alwayes celebrated from an hundreth yeares vntounto an hundreth yeares. For he feareth leaſt the olde cuſtome of the auncient Panims ſhould in ſucceſſion of time be altogether aboliſhed.

Thomas.

What cuſtome?

Hillarius.

They hauehave accuſtomed The playes of the panyms.to play in the honor of their Gods, ieſts, hiſtories and diuers other playes, which they do call ſeculer playes, bicauſe they do not celebrate it but from an hundreth to an Luds ſeculares.hundreth yeares. And therefore the Heraldes doe crye which declare and publiſh them: Come & ſée the games the which none of you ſhal neuer ſe any more.

Euſebius.

But Boniface hath done cleane contrary to that y^• thou ſayeſt. For he hath conſtituted the Iubile for to aboliſh the memory of thoſe Paniſh plaies.

Hillarius.

He hath chaunged playes into playes, and thoſe which profited him nothing at all he hath chaunged thē into others more profitable for him. But the other Popes which came afterwards, ſeing and perceiuing that that Iubile was too long for them, and that they could not hauehave ſo good a part for their pray, hauehave abrogated and made ſhorter the time. And therefore Pope Clement the ſixt hath remitted it frō 50. years to 50. years. Clement. …. Plat. in vi…. Clement. 6. Sextu… B…nauenture de…ied. Alexander. 6And after him, Pope Sextus the fourth, who hath dei…ied and put among the ſaints. S. Bonauenture, hath agayne remitted it from xxv. yeares to xxv. years: and hath celebrated the firſt, in the yeare 1475. Afterwards, Alexander the ſixt, who was pope in the yeare 1500. following the example of Sextus, hath yet better enlarged that Iubile. For …e hath not onelyonly held & kept it at Rome, but hath ſo enlarged it thorowout all Chriſtendome, that there remayneth almoſt no citie, village, nor pariſh, but that he hath made them p…rta…ers of it.

Thomas.

They may then bée well called Gods liuetenaunts in earth. For ſith that they do it … y^• …t, Ieſus Chriſt is well at leaſure. He …ught to hauehave p. 284no great care, neither for the quicke nor for the dead, ſith that he hath ſuch liuetenauntes: we ſhall bée compelled The Pope the iudge of the quicke and of the dead.to chaunge our Credo, and whereas in the ſame we conſeſſe that he ſhall come from heauen for to be the Iudge of the quicke and the dead, we muſt giuegive that title vntounto the Pope.

Hillarius,

A good Sophiſter wil eaſily abſolue thy doubt. For wee confeſſe that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall come at the time appointed. Wherefore they will conclude that Ieſus Chriſt is not yet really and in eueryevery déede, Iudge of the quicke and of the dead, but that he ſhalbe: Or if thou wilt that I doe tell thée in their language: That he is Iudge, Non actu ſed habitu & aptitudine, but that the Pope is, not onelyonly in power remote & future, but actu, & in potentra propinqua propinquiſsima: that is to ſay, of act, d…ede, worke and power néere and preſent.

Thomas.

Beholve a goodly ſolution. In the meane while then, Ieſus Chriſt ſhal reſt, and the Pope ſhall doc…all.

Theophilu….

I am abaſhed, if their buls, indulgences & pardons hauehave ſuch power. How Gregory hath paſſed them Gregory. …. hath made no mentiō of the bulles for the dead.ouer, without making any mencion of them, when he comprehended all the meanes by which the liuing, might comfort the ſoules of purgatory. For hée did put a…d declare …nt foure, and touched not one word of the buls and pardons. But there is yet an other pointe, that which y^• doctor Hoſtienſis, which is of great reputatiō among the papiſes, Hoſtienſis contrary vntounto the bul…es.was not of opinion that the pope can doe ſuch thinges by his pardons and indulgences, but hath holden the contrary. …ea, and the other doctors, as Bonauenture, Thomas of Scolaſtical doctours doubting of the bulles. Re…ſperg. de mor. …. ſer. d…m. ſexa.Aquin, Alexander of Ales, Giles, D…rand, Richard, Peter of Tarentaiſ…, and many other like, hau… had ſometime the thing in doubt, and hauehave onelyonly diſputed of it, as of an opinion: afterwardes hauehave taken vponupon them baldneſſe to define vponupon it, and to giuegive their ſentence, as if they were wel aſſured of it. But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true, it is great felly for the papiſtes, to beſtowe any more any pennye, nor halfe pennye, neither for the funerals, nor for y^• maſſes, vigils, nor other ſuffrages for y^• dead, & that they ſhould reiect a… other manner Bulles doing all thinges.of doings, for to hold themſelues onelyonly to y^• buls & pardons, and to buy them for to draw the ſ…ules from Purgatory. For it ſhould not coſt them ſo much, & ſhould hauehave ſooner diſpatched & ri… away the poore ſoules from Purgatory. For if the Pope hath in his hands the treaſure of the The treaſor of the church, and the diſpenſation of the ſame. Alex. de A…es. In. 4. Sent. Re…ſperg. de mor. virt. ſerm. D…m. in ſexa.Church, & hath the power, as Alexander de Ales witneſſeth, by the power of his keys, & by the meanes of his indulgences to diſtribute & beſtow them, as wel to the liuing as to the dead, the Papiſtes hauehave no more néede of any other thing. For euen as they hauehave by their Maſſes and other inu…ntions, aboliſhed & put out the vertue of the death and paſſion, and of the ſacrifice of Ieſus Chriſt, ſo the Popes, which hauehave bene the authors of the buls and indulgences hauehave aboliſhed maſſes, ſuffrages, & al meritorious works, for the quicke & for the dead, which their predec…ſſors hauehave inuented, without the word of God. And ſo by that meanes one ſhal hauehave no more néede, not onelyonly of Ieſus Chriſt, but alſo of their maſſes, nor of all that that they can do: but it is ſufficient for al, to hauehave paper & parchment written, and buls ſigned & ſealed with waxe or with lead. …ut which is more, I am very much abaſhed, how they dare to attribute ſo much power ouer y^• dead, to their buls, keys & abſolutiōs, ſith that the Pope Gelaſius and their decre…als & Canons doe witneſſe and openly confeſſe, that the church can bind… and vnbinde thoſe y^• be liuing, & not the dead: and that w…e doe not read, that the ſame was euer cōmaunded or done, not of Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe, which al…ne hath the power to do that. But hath ſaid namely vntounto S. Peter: Al that that thou ſhalt binde or vnbinde vponupon the earth, ſhalbe bound in heauē. He hath ſaid namely, vponupon earth. For he hath neuer The povver of y^• …e…es limi…ted in this world. 24 q. 2 ca. Quod aut. & le…atur. Mat, 16. c 19ſayd, that he that ſhalbe dead being bound ſhalbe vnb…und. Beholde the very wordes of the Canons, which doe well way the wordes of Ieſus Chriſt, and doe confirme y^• that I hauehave ſaid, of the authoritie of the keyes, at the leaſt in this place: in which is ſaid very plainely, that by thoſe p. 289words of the goſpell is declared, that none can be excommunicated, or abſolued a…ter he is dead. For he ſaith: That which thou ſhalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth. He ſayth not vnderunder the earth, declaring that we may binde and vn binde thoſe that be alyue, for y^• diuerſitie of their merits but we cannot giuegive ſentence of the dead. Beholde the queſtion that Gratian propounded, & the reſolution in his owne words.

Thomas.

How can that agrée with that which hath 24. q 2. ca. Sane.bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons, which doe giuegive power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead. It muſt néeds be that the canons be contrary the Contrarietie of the Canons.one vntounto the other.

Theophilus.

That is not newe nor rare with them. But the gloſers doe excuſe that by their interpretacions and exceptions. I doe not denye, but that we may condempne To excommunicate the doctrine of y^e dead.dempne after that one is deade the falſe doctrine that a man and an Hereticke ſhall holde during his lyfe, if then it be manifeſted, euen as it might bée done by ſome of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples, for to aduertiſe the Churches, to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themſelues. But to excommunicate and curſe the perſons, I knowe or ſée not how that can bée bo…ne with all by the holy Scripture, …ith that they are before theyr Iudge, vntounto whome the Angells did ſende the Diuell, as is written of Michael the Archangell, who The angells durſt no… curſe the diuell. … piſt. Iud. b. 9diſputing with the Diuell about the body of Mo…es, durſt not vſe rayling iudgement agaynſt him, but ſaid vntounto him: The Lord rebuke thée: Yet neuertheleſſe thoſe heere dare to enterpriſe more agaynſt men both quick and dead, then the Angells durſt agaynſt the Diuels: although that they holde them already for moſt certe…e to be condemp…ed of God.

Hillarius.

I am yet abaſhed of one thing. If the Pope hauehave ſuch power to giuegive full remiſſion from payne and fault by his bulles & moulgences, aſwell for the quick as for the ſoules of the dead, I meruayle that hée hath not already long ſithence made empti… and cleanſed Purgatory: and that he hath not fetched out all the ſoules, ſith that he giueth ſo many pardons dayly and hourely, and not only he, but al …is Cardinals, biſhops, prieſts & monks.

Euſebius.

In. 4 ſent. Re…ſ…erg. de m…r. v…r. ſer. d…m. ….There is a goodly aunſwere vntounto that queſtion. The firſt is, for that there goeth eueryevery day new into Purgatory. The other is, euen as Saint Thomas & ſaint Bonauenture doe aunſwere vntounto that obiection, that it is very requiſite and needefull, before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable, that it hauehave reaſonable cauſe: The diſpenſatiō of the treaſure of the Church.and that the diſpenſation of the goods and treaſure of y^e church (in which are aſſembled and compriſed al the merits of Ieſus Chriſt & all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes, which euer were) ſhould be done with moderation and diſcreſſion: VntoUnto vvhome the pardons do profyt.or otherwiſe god will not accept it. And therefor the pardons & indulgences are not giuen vntounto any perſon, eyther for him or for any other, be he quicke or dead, but by reaſon of ſome good worke that he hath done, eyther for him ſelfe, or in the name of thoſe for whome the pardon is giuen. And therefore is lymitted the power of all thoſe which hauehave the charge to giuegive them, & al do know, be they Cardinals, Archbiſhops, Biſhops, Abbots, Moonks or Prieſts, The povver to giuegive pardons lymitted.how many they may giuegive eueryevery day: except the Pope, which hath not his power limitted, except he vſe thē vnreaſonably, y^e pardōs thē y^t he wil giuegive, ſhal not be auaileable w^t god.

Hillarius.

I vnderſtand what thou wouldeſt ſay. The pope hath heaped vp together all y^e merits of Ieſus Chriſt, of the patriarchs, prophets, Apos;tles, Martirs, confeſſors, virgins, ſaints & ſaintes of paradiſe, & of al the Chriſtian Church in a treaſure, and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or ſhut, & diſtribute little or much, when he will and as it pleaſeth him. The great Lockyer or lockſmyth.For he is the great lockeſimth. But al the others are but as his ſeruaunts, of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of eueryevery one, in ſuch ſort, that they cannot diſtribute, but that that he hath delyuered vntounto them, and of whom they hauehave the keyes. Wherefore if it behoueth that hée p. 286hauehave in y^e treaſury & garner a great many of ſeuerall chā bers and cabins, of which many muſt hauehave the keyes eueryevery one his owne, for to depart and beſtow that whereoff he hath the diſpenſation, without daring to touche the reſt, except that ſometimes, thoſe lyttle varlets and lockeſmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great lokſmith Picke lockes.and great treaſurer, he knowing nothing thereoff, and that he be not therewithall content: although that vnderunder his name and title, they ſtreth foorth their power, as ſéemeth good vntounto them, and doe forge keyes, bulles and pardons as many as they lyſt, and alwaies at the coſts of the poore people. Now the great lockeſmith hath no lymit, but that he hath alwaies reaſonable cauſe, for to giuegive buls and pardons as many as one woulde, ſo that money doe come: or otherwiſe he will ſuffer the poore ſoules to be roſted and tormented in Purgatory, as long as the world ſhall continue, for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade. As concerning the others which hauehave the daies limitted that they may giuegive pardons, I hauehave a certeine doubt, the which I would y^t I were reſolued of it by thée Euſebius. For ſith y^t the one hath power to giuegive two or thrée thouſand, an other two or thrée hundreth, an other an hundreth fiftie, fortie, thirtie or twentie, either more or leſſe. I would gladly know of thée what Clockes of Purgatory.horologes & clocks, & what quadrans they hauehave in purgary, for to meaſure thoſe dayes there. For ſith that there is no ſun, moone nor ſtars, what daies & what yeres can they hauehave? For the time is taken of the morning, of the heauen & of y^e courſe of y^e ſunne. But thoſe which are in purgatory, hauehave nothing of al this: Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres, what months, dayes & houres they can hauehave: & whether they be very long or ſhort. Example of the long dayes in Purgatory.As far as I can imagine, by an exāple which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his ſum, y^e daies ought ther to be meruailous lōg. For he ſaith, that an Angell caryed thether a ſoule of a man, to whome hée promiſed, that it ſhoulde tary there but an houre. And as ſoone as that Angell did come agayne to ſee that ſoule, it did begin to crye out vponupon him, and to call him lyer, deceiuer and traytor.

Thomas.

To what purpoſe?

Hillarius.

It ſayd vntounto him: Thou haſt promiſed me, that I ſhould be but an houre and I hauehave bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres. But the Angel aunſwered vntounto him: There wanteth a great many my friende. For thou haſt not yet taryed a quarter of an houre.

Wherefore I doe conclude, that it muſt needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long, ſith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thouſande yeares of ours: or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte, and that the time continueth long to the poore ſoules.

Euſebius.

I will tell thée as touching the pardons, it hath bene long time ſithence, that many people doe know that there is in them great abuſes. Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them.

Theophilus,

I doe alſo iudge it loſt time to ſpeake of ſuch abuſe, if I did not ſée y^t ſithence y^e time of Gregory, ſo many people to hauehave bene abuſed, & that ſo many great Doctors, which are moſt eſtéemed amongſt the Sophiſters and Schoolemen, hauehave written of it, and hauehave confirmed it ſo aſſuredly.

Hillarius.

The povver of the deal ouer the PopesI know that thou doeſt beginne already Euſebius, to agree with vsus. I beléeue that thou art of this opinion, that the Pope ought to let the dead reſt, without reigning ouer them, ſith that they hauehave more power ouer the Pope, then the Pope ouer them: as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke, which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces. For I hauehave neuer read that the Pope hath rayſed to lyfe any dead perſon, and that he came to aunſwere before him, of all thoſe whom he hath cyted, condempned, abſolued, or excommunicated. But that booke doth witneſſe manifeſtly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Biſhop of Poytiers, hath Pope Clement the … by Fryer VValter being dead.cauſed to be cyted after his death by a Cedule, Pope Clement the firt, for to appeare before the eternall Iudge, p. 287bicauſe that he had vniuſtly depoſed him from his office.

Thomas.

And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion?

Hillarius.

If the booke lye not, that was no ieſt. For at the verye ſame daye which was preſcribed vntounto him, the Pope dyed of a ſodeyne death, and departed ſodeinely for to goe and aunſwere there. What ſayeſt thou by this Euſebius? If this hiſtory be falſe, it is a great diſhonor for the Cardeliers, who do make great accompt of that booke, and doe holde it to be very pretious among them, as a relicke, and reuelation. And for the Pope alſo which hath confirmed the order of ſaint Fraunces, and of the foure Mendicants. I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding, and The foundaciō of the order of the Mendicāts.the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other. For ſith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces, the order of ſaint Fraunces is buylded and ſtaied vppon the Pope, wherefore when the Pope ſhall fall, which is the ſtone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding, alſo ſhall fall the buylding, the order and the rule of y^e Mendicants. Now we cannot deny, but y^t example doth ruinate & ouerthrow y^e Pope & all his power. I do not diſpute whether y^t the hiſtory be true or falſe. For I beléeue that is as true as it is true y^t the Pope is God, & ſaint Fraunces conformable & agréeing to Ieſus Chriſt, as y^t booke ful of blaſphemies enforceth it ſelfe to proue it. But I conſider onelyonly, that ſith that the Cordeliers hauehave written ſuch an hiſtory, & do maynteine it by their bookes, that they doe abate aſmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope, as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order. For how can this witneſſe agrée, with this propoſition? The Pope cannot erre? And with the expoſition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of thoſe words? Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation, and the gates of hell ſhall not preuayle agaynſt it.

If the Pope be that rocke or ſtone, and that ſtone is fallen, it muſt néedes be that all the Popiſh church doe fall with it, and the orders of the foure Mendicants, which are his foure Euangelyſts, and his principall pillers. And The Popes euangeliſtes.ſo by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made, doe vnmake the Pope, which hath made them, and the creature vnmaketh his creator, and the creator his creatures.

Theophilus.

It chaunced to them, as to the Madianits, The papiſtical Madianites. Iudg 7, g. …2.Judg 7which deſtroyed themſelues the one the other, with their owne weapons, when they heard the ſound of the trompets, and pitchers of the army of Gedeon, and ſaw the lyght of his torches. So in lyke manner ſith that Ieſus Chriſt, our true Gedeon, hath put the trompets of his goſpell. The true Gedeōinto the handes of his lyttle army, the which, by vertue of his holy ſpirite, he maketh to ſounde euen vntounto the endes of the worlde, and cauſeth the lyght of his worde and goſpell to ſhine thorow out the earth, we ought not to doubt, but that all thoſe Madianits ſhal be in ſhort time diſcouraged and diſcom…ited, according to the Prophecie of Eſay: notwithſtanding that the flocke and company of Eſa. 9. …Isa 9Ieſus Chriſt be lyttle. For it is puiſſant inough by vertue of their capitayne: beſides that they themſelues ſhall bée diſcomfited with their owne ſwerde, and ſhall fall into ruine, with their Purgatory which hath but a lyttle hold or ſtay except thou do bring vntounto it agayne ſome ſtone and morter for to repaire and amende it.

Euſebius.

I will employ all the meanes or wayes that I can finde out. And therefore marke and regard how thou ſhalt ryd and diſcharge thy ſelfe of that which is written in Saint Luke. where Ieſus Chriſt ſaith: The ſeruaunt The place of Saint Luc. 12 …. 47.Luke 12:47that knoweth his maſters will and prepareth net himſelfe neyther did according to his will, ſhall bée beaten with many ſtripes: But he that knew not his maſters will, and yet did committe many things worthy of ſtripes, ſhal be beaten with few ſtripes. Now it is euen ſo, that in hell there is neither little nor much. For the paynes there are infinite. And therefore it is called the hell fire, the ertreame darkenes. Wherefore it followeth that that pathe p. 288Mat 22 b. 17Matt 22of which is heere ſpoken off, cannot be vnderſtanded but of the ſame of Purgatory, in which may be more or leſſe.

Theophilus.

There ſhould be no hell if thou wilt ſo interprete the ſcripture. What opinion haſt thou of thoſe The iudgement of the Sodomits and Gomorriās Genoſ. 19. c. 24.of Sodome and Gomorrha: Doeſt thou thinke that they be in hell or in Purgatory?

Euſebius.

I beleeue that they are in hell: ſith that their iniquitie hath bene ſo great, that it muſt needes bee that God hath conſumed them, thorowe the fire of his iudgement.

Theophilus.

If there were founde among them ſome, who féelyng the iudgement of God vppon them, hauehave remembred the preaching & admonitions which Loth made vntounto them by the word of god, and which hauehave had repentaunce and were ſory for their ſinnes, in requiring merciemercy of God with a good heart and good affection in the middeſt of the fire: I will not maynteine that God hath refuſed vntounto them grace and merciemercy. For he hath promiſed vntounto E…e…h. 18, …. 2…the ſinner, as often as with a good heart he ſhall retourne vntounto him. Now if there be any ſuch among them, I leaue that to the iudgement of God, who knoweth all things and thoſe that are his. For he puniſheth ſometimes ſome 2. Timo…. 2. c. 1….men with corporall paynes, with the reprobate, the which notwithwanding he condempneth not with them to eternall dampnation, he puniſheth them corporally, as he chaſtiſeth and correcteth his elect by aff…ictions, eyther bicauſe The punishmēt of y^e elect with the reprobate.that they hauehave bene neglygent in rebuking the wicked and vicious: or els that they hauehave giuen ſome conſent vntounto their vices, and hauehave not hadde in recommendation the honour of GOD as they ought to hauehave had.

But bicauſe that they hauehave not abidden and continued hard hearted, & hauehave not ſinned againſt the holy Ghoſt, the Lord mittigateth their payne, and is contented to chaſtice and correct them corporally, for to humble them, to make them to acknowledge their faulte, and for to bée an example vntounto others: As the Apoſtle witneſſeth of the Corinthians, who for the diſpiſing of the Supper of Ieſus Chriſt, were chaſtiſed of God with diſeaſes and death. Such might be the kindred of Loth. For it is not lyke to be true that Loth woulde hauehave taken allyaunce The kindred of Loth.with them, if they had ben altogether as abhominable as the others of the citie. Yet neuertheles bicauſe they were vnbeleeuing & of incredulytie, and that they lyghtly regarded all things, they were puniſhed with the others, for to giuegive others to vnderſtande, that it is not good to dwell among the wicked and to ſupport their iniquitie. Yet neuertheleſſe I leaue the ſame to the iudgement of God, who knoweth the hearts. But I onelyonly ſpeake this to the ende we doée not iudge raſhly of his ſecrets and iudgements, & except we hauehave expreſſe reuelation: but thoſe that hauehave perſeuered in ſuch a heart and ſuch affection as they had, when they would hauehave done vyolence vntounto Loth, and to his gueſts which he had receyued into his houſe, and are dead in that wicked minde, I doubt not but that they are periſhed. For we hauehave the expreſſe word of god, of the condempnation of ſuch perſons. For I doubt not that of thoſe Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh not, when hée ſpake vntounto his Apoſtles, of thoſe which re…ected the preaching of the Goſpell: Verely I ſay vntounto you, that thoſe of Sodoma Math. 10. b. 15Matt 10and Gomorrha ſhall be handeled more eaſely in the day of Iudgemet then thoſe there. In what place ſhall be that handlyng? That ſhall not be in Paradiſe. For where there is no payne, there néedeth no mitigation. Neyther ſhall it be in Purgatory: For according to your owne doctrine, it ſhall then ceaſe. It muſt néedes be then in hell.

Euſebius.

But how can that be in hell, ſith that the paine there is infinite.

Theophilus.

Thou muſt vnderſtande, that there is not ſo lyttle a payne, which is not infinite and importable, vntounto him which is forſaken of God, but yet neuertheleſſe God may and can make his iudgement, his wrath and indignation to be felt vntounto ſome more then to other p. 289ſome. But it followeth not therefore, but that all men are conſtrained to cary it, and but that it is a burthen importable to all men. Therefore it is ſo often written, that thoſe which ſhal hauehave moſt ſinned ſhal be moſt puniſhed. Now thoſe vntounto whome God hath giuen more fauour and grace, and hath giuen more knowledge of his wil, then the others, doe ſinne moſt griuouſly. For they declare a more greater ingratitude, malice and ſtubberneſſe, & hauehave leſſe excuſe. But it followeth not therefore, that the ignorance and negligence doth excuſe the others, but that they Ignorance doth excuſe none.hauehave their part, Ieſus Chriſt manaſeth with a more grieuouſer iudgement thoſe which ſhall reiect his Goſpell bicauſe that God hath ſhewed vntounto them more grace and fauour, then vntounto the Sodomites and Gomorrians. Wherfore they doe render themſelues more culpable and inexcuſable. But although that the Goſpell hath not bene preached ſo cléerely and plainly vntounto the Sodomites & Gomorians, as vntounto vsus, yet Ieſus Chriſt doth not excuſe them therefore altogether, nor abſolueth them of the iudgement of God. But for to amplyfie the ingratitude & malice of Punishment vppon thoſe vvhichwhich do reiect the goſpell.thoſe which reiect the benediction and bleſſing of God, he compareth them to the moſt execrableſt that euer were vponupon the earth. Not for to iuſtifie the others, but the better to confound thoſe héere, demonſtrating vntounto thē that their iniquitie is ſo abhominable, that God condempneth thom whiche maye bée accompted and taken for good men, in compariſon of theſe: not that they are, but in compariſon of the exceſſiue iniquitie of thoſe héere. After this manner we muſt vnderſtand that place of S. Luke, without dreaming out a Purgatorye. For the paine of which Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh off, maye bée héere in this worlde: or at the daye of iudgement: or in hell, as the ſame of the Sodomites, Gomorrians and their lyke. Or thou ſhalt bée conſtrayned to put into Pargatorye all the wicked and reprobate, which hauehave bene ſithence the beginning of the worlde. For the Lorde doth alwayes menace and threaten with more grieuous paine the ſucceſſors ſors, then the predeceſſors, bicauſe that they doe agrauate alwayes more & more the iudgement of God vppon them, bicauſe that the light is more greater reuealed vntounto them, and that they hauehave more examples of the iudgements of God, y^t which they deſpiſe: & do yéeld themſelues culpable, not onelyonly of their wickedneſſé, but alſo of the ſinnes of their fathers and predeceſſors, allowing them by their doings.

Thomas.

The ſleepers and dreamers may take from that place an argument for to proue their dreames, bicauſe it ſéemeth by the words of Ieſus Chriſt, that the paine of the Sodomits and Gomorrians is differred vntill the day of iudgement. But thou haſt already ſhortned and cut off the way for them, in declaring vntounto vsus bow the iudgement is already done, and how it is yet to doe.

Theophilus.

Theſe two places ought very well to incitate and ſtirre vsus forward to follow veritie and to ſeke it. For ignoraunce exempteth vsus not from the iudgement of God, the which commeth of our fault, chiefely in theſe dayes, that the Goſpell is ſo cléerely reuealed vntounto vsus.

Euſebius.

Therefore I deſire to know and well vnderſtād all thoſe places which might yet trouble my braines, amonge which there is one in the actes of the Apoſtles, which ſome men doe interprete for the Purgatory. It is there written, that God hath raiſed vp Ieſus Chriſt, and … place of the Act. 1. d. …4Acts 1… ſ…d the ſorrowes of Hell. Nowe he hath not looſed the ſorrowes of the hell fire or gebenne, which are eternall: nor of the Limbe. For there is to be had ioy and conſolation. It followeth then, that the ſame ought to bée vnderſtanded of the ſorrowes of Purgatory. As much may we ſay of many like places which are in the Pſalmes, as theſe héere, vntounto which Dauid ſaid: The ſorrowes of hell compaſſed ……e. Then Lord haſt brought my ſoule out of hell. God ſhall deliuer my ſoule from the power of hell, when … Pſa… …, …3he …. And Iob ſayth in like manner: O y^• thou wa…ideſt …eepe mée and hide mée in the hell, vntyll thy wrath …ere ſtilled: and to appointe me a time, wherein p. 290thou mighteſt remember mée? what other hel can we héere vnderſtand, then Purgatory?

Theophilus.

I am abaſhed of y^e great ignorance of ſuch interpreters of the ſcripture. For firſt, in y^e place of the acts, it is not in y^e Gréeke copies the ſorrowes of hel, and it was not ſo written of S. Luke. For he hath ſayd, the ſorrowes of death, and not of hell: although that in your common tranſlation it is written as thou ſayeſt. But although it were ſo, all ſhoulde come to one ende. For the text doth plainely declare, that Saint Peter ſpeaketh in that Sermon of the reſurrection of Ieſus Chriſt, and that hée himſelfe expoundeth hell, for the tribulations, extreme ſorrowes, the death, the pit, the ſepulchre, the low places, and the eſtate and condition of the dead, from which Ieſus Chriſt is raiſed. He maketh there no mencion of the Limbe, of Purgatory, nor of the gehenne or hell fire. That ſame ſolution ſufficeth for all the other places by thée alledged. For that is very common in the Scripture, to take hell in that ſignification, as it appeareth by thoſe places the which thou baſt put foorth. For how many times ſaith the Prophet in thoſe ſame places? The ſighings of the dead hauehave enuironed me. I hauehave called vpō thée in my trouble. I hauehave Pſal, 2…. 30, 49cryed vntounto thée and thou haſt healed mée. Thou haſt deliuered mee from thoſe that goe down into the pit. He meaneth none other thing by thoſe woords, but that he ſetteth foorth and declareth that hell from which he was deliuered. Wherefore I am greatly aſhamed, both of Eccius and of Cochleus, for that they were not aſhamed, to alledge ſuch places for to mainteine their Purgatory.

Euſebius.

Whatſoeuer thou ſayeſt, it ſeemeth neuertheleſſe The place of the 1. Cor. 15 To b… baptiſed for the dead1 Cor 15that already in the time of Saint Paul, the Chriſtians were of an opinion, that the liuinge might giuegive ſome ayde vntounto the deade, by that that hée writeth of thoſe which did baptiſe themſelues for the dead. Nowe that could not profite, neither thoſe which were in Paradiſe, nor thoſe which were in hell. It muſt be then that it profiteth thoſe of Purgatory.

Theophilus.

Thou oughteſt alreadye to hauehave vnderſtanded by that which hath bene ſayde of that place, that it can ſerue nothing at all for Purgatory. I doe not denye vntounto thée, but that in the time of the Apoſtles, there were ſuffrages and prayers for the dead. But that was among the Panims and Idolaters, as it hath bene already very amply entreated off amongeſt vsus. And doubte not, but that there remayneth ſome roote of ſuch ſuperſtition in ſome of thoſe which are called Chriſtians. But if it were ſo as thou doeſt vnderſtande it, it followeth not therefore that Sainct Paul alloweth that manner of dooing: As the auncient Doctors themſelues dooe witneſſe it, namely Sainct Ambroſe. For I may well take Ambro. in 1. Cor. 15.1 Cor 15an argument againſt a Papiſt (which will denye vntounto mée the reſurrection, or immortalitie of the ſoules) with their manner of dooings towardes the dead, for to beate him with his owne ſwoorde, and yet I will not allow neuertheleſſe their ſuperſtition. But it is not néedfull to ſtay any more vponupon that place, ſith that I hauehave already declared vntounto thée, howe the auncientes hauehave vnderſtanded it, and howe it is alſo expounded by others. For whatſoeuer expoſition that thou maiſt giuegive vntounto it, it cannot ſerue for thy purpoſe. And there was neuer any of the auncientes, which hath dreamed, that the ſame was done bicauſe of Purgatorye. For Epiphanius witneſſeth, Epipha. li. 1 Tom. 2. hereſ. 18.that thoſe which baptiſed themſelues for the dead, which were dead before that they had receiued Baptiſme, did it to that ende that when they ſhoulde riſe againe in the reſurrection, they ſhoulde not bée puniſhed for that they hauehave not bene baptiſed in this worlde. He ſayth that ſuch was their opinion. Wherefore it is eaſily to knowe, that they did not thinke of Purgatory.

Hée toucheth yet an other expoſition of that place, the which hée alloweth. But yet it maketh leſſe for thée. To conclude, that place ſerueth as much for your broylers of ſoules for to proue your Purgatory, as for the Marcioniſtes heretickes, who as witneſſeth Theophilactus, p. 291doe drawe them to their purpoſe, for to proue their Theophilact. …, Cor. 15baptiſme, which they receiue for the dead. For when any dyed among them without baptiſme, they had a cuſtome, that one that was a liue ſhould enter within the béere of the dead, or where the dead was layde. Afterwards they did come vntounto the béere and demaunded of the dead, if he will be baptiſed? Then the liue man, which was there hid, in a low place vnderunder the béere, aunſwered y^t he would. Wherefore they dyd Baptiſe him in ſtéede of the dead.

Hillarius.

They had yet more appearance, thē our Biſhops & Prieſts which baptiſed the bels.

Euſebius.

If thoſe two arguments doe ſéeme vntounto thée weake and feeble, I will alldge vntounto thée a ſtronger. When S. Paul did write vntounto The place of the Phil, 2, b. 9the Philippians, that vntounto Ieſus Chriſt is giuen a name aboue all names, y^t in the name of Ieſus, ſhould eueryevery knée boow, both of things in heauen & things in earth, & things vnderunder y^e earth. What vnderſtādeth he by thoſe which vnderunder the earth do boow their knées vntounto Ieſus Chriſt? That cannot be vnderſtanded of the diuels. For they hauehave not accuſtomed to honour God, nor the damned alſo. For their office is rather to blaſpheme him. It muſt needes be then that they be in Purgatory which do boow the knée vntounto Ieſus Chriſt, which do honour him, or otherwiſe y^e words of S. Paul ſhould not be true.

Theophilus.

If by boowing the To bovve the knee.knée, S. Paul did vnderſtande the true diuine ſeruice, the true inuocation, and the true honour which the elect doo owe vntounto God, ther ſhould be ſome reaſon & appearance in the argument. But S. Paul by that manner of ſpeaking, The ſeignyary of Ieſus Chriſt.meaneth none other thing by boowing the knée, but that to Ieſus Chriſt is giuen ſuch domination, that it is neceſſary that eueryevery creature bée ſubiect vntounto him, and obeye him, and acknowledge him to bee Iudge and Lorde: the which the good and the elect dowillingly and with a good heart: the wicked and reprebate, in ſpite of their téeth. But they are neuertheleſſe campelled. For they cannot reſiſt the vertue and power of Ieſus Chriſt, which maketh his enimies his footſtoole. But the Apoſtle vſeth ſuch Pſal. 110. …. 1Ps 110manner of ſpeaking, for to followe the ſtile of the Prophetes, and to declere vntounto vsus that which the Lord hath ſayde by I ſay: I doe liue ſayth the Lord: EueryEvery knee ſhal Pſa. 45. d. 23.Ps 45boowe vntounto mee. The which the Apoſtle expoundeth by other woords, ſaying: wee ſhall be all brought before the iudgement ſcate of Chriſt. Afterwardes hee confirmeth …om. 14 b. 10that propoſition by the very wordes of the Prophet, declaring that all that commeth to one effect. For bicauſe that the good and euill are compelled to render obedience vntounto their Lordes, and that they doe declare commonly their ſubiection and humilitie in boowing the knée and dooing reuerence before their Lorde, the Scripture vſeth ſuch manner of ſpeakinge for to ſignifie the obedience, reuerence and ſubiection, that eueryevery creature muſt ſhe we towardes God. Although that the ſame may bée done diuerſe wayes either by bowing the knées, and without bewing the knées. For the Angells and the ſoules can no better boowe their knees then the Diuels: ſith that all of thē hauehave no knées: which cannot be but to bodies: if we doe not vnderſtande any otherwiſe thoſe figures of ſpeaking. And therefore there is no inconuenience, to vnderſtande by thoſe which do boow the knees vnderunder the earth, the Diuels themſelues with all the reprobate, which ſhall all appeare before the iudgement ſeate of Chriſt, and ſhall be cōpelled to acknowledge him to be their Iudge, in great VVho do bow the knees vnderunder the …rch.horrour and feare, as they hauehave already ſhewed by experience, in the time that Ieſus Chriſt was yet in his mortall body & paſſible, before that he was riſen againe. For the wicked ſpirites were conſtrayned to obey him, and to confeſſe him to be Chriſt and to pray vntounto him: Although that it was againſt their wills, ſaying: O Ieſu thou ſonne of God, what hauehave wee to do w^t thee? Art thou come hether … d. 10. Mar. 1… 24Mark 1:24to torment vsus before the time be come? We know that thou art the holy eue of God: And they beſought him, ſaying: If thou caſt vsus out, ſuffer vsus to goe our way into The prayer of the …the herd of ſwine. In the very ſame manner as they are p. 292compelled to entreate & beſeech Ieſus Chriſt, & to confeſſe him, ſo ſhall they be compelled to boow the knee vntounto him. And if they did that vntounto him whileſt y^t he was yet mortal & paſſible, what ſhal they do now, ſith y^t he ſitteth immortal & glorious at the right hand of God his father? And if they doe beſéech or pray to Ieſus Chriſt, may they not as well boow y^e knee vntounto him? In y^e ſence the auncients hauehave vnderſtāded, & Theophilactus expoūdeth it expreſly of y^e diuels, Theophi. in Epiſt. phi…. 2.which ſhalbe conſtrained to giuegive glory & honour vntounto Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

If thou haſt eſcaped y^t place, I beleeue, y^t thou ſhalt not eſcape ſo eaſily of the like, written in y^e Apocalipſe, where it is ſayd: And all y^e creatures which are in heauen and on the earth, & vnderunder the earth, & in the The place of the Apoc. 5. … 13Rev 5:13ſea, and al that are in them heard I, ſaying: bleſſing, he nor, glory & power be vntounto him that ſitteth vponupon the ſeate, and The prayſe geuen to God of all creatures.vntounto the lambe for euermore. Thou canſt not héere ſay but that it is ſpoken of y^e true praiſe & of the true honor which is due vntounto God, the which y^e diuels, nor the reprobate cannot giuegive vntounto him. And yet neuertheles it is here ſaid, that there be creatures vnderunder y^e earth, which do giuegive vntounto him that praiſe, which can be none other thē the ſoules of purgatory,

Theophilus.

You do lacke but the leg of a Fly for to build your arguments. Doeſt thou not ſee y^t the holy Ghoſt vſeth an enumeration, by the which he witneſſeth, y^t all creatures in al places do praiſe their creator, & Ieſus Chriſt the true lambe, by whō all is reſtored? But being not contēted to vſe an vniuerſal propoſition, he alſo woult by enumeratiō of creatures in perticuler, conclude y^t in general, bicauſe that that manner of ſpeaking doth better expreſſe the thing, & doth amplifie better the glory of God, declaring y^t there is not an element, nor any place where God is not praiſed and magnified, frō the higheſt part of heauen vntounto y^e bottom of y^e earth & from eueryevery part of the world. For as he writeth, that the heauens declare y^e glory of God, & the firmament ſheweth foorth his handy works. Alſo there is not a creature whatſoeuer it bee, neither Pſal. 19. a. …Ps 19in Heauen nor in the ayre, nor in the water, nor in the earth, nor vnderunder the earth, not ſo much as an Ant or Piſmer, neither a worme, plant, trée, nor ſtone, which preacheth not, ſingeth, prayſeth, & magnifieth according to his nature, in his manner.

Euſebius.

How can the mute and dumbe creatures ſpeake, being without reaſon and inſenſible, which hauehave no ſence, reaſon, vnderſtandinge nor ſpeach? It muſt néedes be that we doe vnderſtand that of men.

Theophilus.

How can the Angells & the bleſſed ſoules, ſpeake and praiſe God, which hauehave no mouth as we hauehave? And how can the Firmament, the Sunne, the Moone, and The ſpeaking of the muet creatures & thoſe that hauehave no bodyes.the ſtarres declare and ſhew foorth the glory of God, and declare his vertue and power? for they hauehave no ſoule, nor mouth as men hauehave. Yet they hauehave neuertheleſſe their mouth agréeing to their nature, for to render vntounto God the honour which apperteyneth vntounto him. Euen ſo ought we to vnderſtand of al other creatures, which are all the liuely Images of God, which declare vntounto vsus thoſe meruailes, and doe ſpeake better hauing no mouth, then the Images which hauehave mouthes and ſpeake not, and which crye not thorow their throate. And therefore how many creatures Pſal. 1…5. b. 5Ps 1:5may there be vnderunder the earth which do praiſe God in that manner? And notwithſtanding that the dampned and reprobate doe not praiſe him in that ſort as he is praiſed of the elect, yet they are neuertheleſſe conſtrained to praiſe & glorif…e him againſt their wills, and they cannot doe nor ſpeake any thing which ſerueth not vntounto his honour and glory.

Euſebius.

Sith that by thy expoſitions thou haſt already pulled out of my handes all the argumentes that I hauehave againſt thee, I will diſplay at once that which remaineth behinde. What wilt thou ſay vponupon that other place taken from the ſame booke? in which is ſpoken of the holy Apo… 21. g, 27citie of the celeſtial Hieruſalem, after this māner: ther ſhal enter into it no vncleane thing. To which agreeth that which is written in Eſay. This ſhalbe called the holy way, Eſa. 35. d. 8.Isa 35no vncleane perſon ſhall goe thorow it.

p. 286Theophilus.

What wilt thou that I ſhould aunſwere thée vppon the ſame. There is none that will deny, but that he muſt be purged from all his ſinnes, before he can come vntounto the eternall lyfe. For fleſh and bloud cannot 1. Cor. 15. ſſ. 5…1 Cor 15inherite the kingdome of God. But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory, but by the bloude of Ieſus Chriſt, by the which we are waſhed & purified, when thorow Apo. 1, b. 5 Act. 15. b. 9 Iohn. 15 a. 3Acts 15John 15the word of god & thorow faith our hearts are ſprinkled. Therefore ſayd Ieſus Chriſt vntounto his diſciples: you are cleane bicauſe of the words which you hauehave heard. We are purged, when we obteine remiſſion of our ſinnes, and that the Lorde forgetteth them, not imputing them vntounto vsus and remembring them, according to that which is written. Bleſſed are thoſe whoſe iniquities are forgiuen Pſa. 32. a. 2Ps 32& whoſe ſins are couered. Bleſſed is the man vntounto whom the Lord imputeth no ſinne.

Thomas.

I doe greatly feare Euſebius, ſith that thou art already come vntounto the Apocalips but that thou wilt be by and by at the ende of thy knowledge. For that is the ende of the new Teſtament, and of all the canonicall Scripture.

Hillarius.

I beléeue that he hath conducted and lead vsus euen vntounto the Apocalips for to bury his Purgatory to the ende we may helpe him to ſing his Requieſcant in pace. For I beleeue that he will dye héere, and that hée ſhall Requieſcant in pace of purgatory.paſſe no further. Your Doctors doe write that after the Iudgement, Purgatory and hell ſhal be all one. But I beléeue that that Purgatory which thou wouldeſt hauehave proued in the Apocalips, to be none other thing then thoſe pondes of fire and brimſtone, in which the beaſt which The vvells and ponds of fire & brimſtone. Apoc. 19. d. …0Rev 19hath engendered Purgatory, is caſt with hir falſe Prophets into the eternall bottomleſſe pitte.

Theophilus.

What ſayſt thou Euſebius to the ſame? Haſt thou no more refuge? Or whether thy arriere woorde bee altogether diſconfited?

Euſebius.

I hauehave no more wherewith to reuenge me, The place of the. … Pet. 3. d, 19except I ſhew foorth that place of Saint Peter, which witneſſeth that the ſpirite of Ieſus Chriſt preached vntounto the ſpirites which were in priſen: By the which priſon I cannot vnderſtand but Purgatory or the Lymbe. …r…ching to ….At the leaſtwiſe it muſt bee that thou doeſt allowe the one or the other.

Theophilus.

That obiection commeth well to purpoſe, for to aunſwere alſo to the queſtion of Thomas, and to thoſe which would hauehave a preaching of the Goſpell in the other world:

Thomas.

I am very gladde that thou haſt not forgotten it, and that the occaſion ſerueth ſo well.

Theophilus.

But before I will enter into it, I will agayne admoniſh thee, that I wil not define nor determine any thing of the eſtate of the dead, beſides that which the holy Scripture hath expreſſely reuealed vntounto me. Wherefore I do conclude that although it ſhould be ſo that thoſe eſtéeme it to be true, yet neuertheles I ſhall not be of that opinion, that any perſon ſhould truſt vntounto it and that hée ſhould leaue off to doe his endeauour in this worlde, to ſeeke Ieſus Chriſt: ſith that the Scripture doth not promiſe vntounto vsus cleerely any ether remedie, nor any other preaching and reuelation for our ſaluation after this lyfe. Therfore I would gladly allow, in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory. For notwithſtanding that he did beleeue that in the ſame one might be purged Aduertiſement.from his ſinnes, yet neuertheleſſe he ſayth, that it is moſt ſure to gouerne himſelfe ſo in this worlde, that one néedeth not of that remedie in the other, but to hauehave there his recourſe and hope.

Thomas.

I am of thy opinion. But expound vntounto vsus at the leaſt the places, that one may alleadge them, to that purpoſe for to hauehave the intellygence thereoff.1. Pet 3, d 181 Pet 3

Theophilus.

That which hath moſt ſhew is that which Euſebius hath touched, in which is written y^t Chriſt hath once ſuffered for the ſinnes, the iuſt for the vniuſt for to bring vsus to God and was killed, as perteining to the fleſh: But was quickened in the ſpirite. In which ſpirit he alſo p. 294went and preached vntounto the ſpirites that were in priſon, which were in time paſſed diſobedient, when the long ſuffering abode exceeding patiently in the dayes of No… &c, The other is by and by after, where he ſaith, that the wicked 1. Pet. 4, b. ….1 Pet 4ſhall giuegive accompt vntounto him that is ready to Iudge quicke and dead. For vntounto this purpoſe verely was the Goſpell preached vntounto the dead, that they ſhould be iudged lyke other men, in the fleſh, but ſhould lyue before god in the ſpirite. Behold two places, after which many learned men hauehave much trauayled, and hauehave expounded them many wayes. Yet neuertheleſſe it hath bene moſt commonly taken for the Lymbe after that it was forged and inuented, bicauſe that he ſpeaketh of the ſpirits which were in priſon or in the lower partes, to whome Ieſus Chriſt hath preached. Thoſe there hauehave vnderſtanded by thoſe ſpirits, the ſoules of the auncient Fathers. By the priſon, the Helles and the Lymbes, in which they were deteined. The others, which are ſo affectioned after the Purgatory, that there is not a place in all the Scripture, which they endeauour not to wreſt & draw, either wrongfully or ouerthwartly, and hauehave taken that priſon for Purgatory, & the ſpirits, for the ſoules that are there. But theſe héere hauehave leſſe ſhew, and doe put themſelues more out of reaſon then the others. Chiefely, ſith that there is none of the Auncients, y^t I know, not of thoſe which hauehave beleeued the Purgatory, that hauehave vnderſtanded it after that manner, and which hauehave alleadged it to that purpoſe. Wherefore it is not needeful to aunſwere them any further. But for to come to the expoſition of thoſe places, I will firſt aduertiſe you, that there are diuers interpretacions, the which I will recy… ſome, to the ende that thou ſhouldeſt not thinke that I doe condempne all the others which hauehave expounded it: Or that I am more arrogant then all men, and that I doe attribute more to my ſence and iudgdement, then to any other.

If I define raſhlye of a thinge, the which all the Expoſitours hauehave founde it ſo obſcure and harde, that many among them hauehave bene conſtrayned to confeſſe that they cannot vnderſtande it. Then I will touch the diuers expoſitions, which are more ſufferable. Afterwardes I will ſignifie vntounto you that which I thinke to be moſt proper. There are ſome which doe not vnderſtand that Saint The firſt expoſition.Peter ſpeaketh héere but of the lyuing vntounto whom Ieſus Chriſt hath preached the goſpell, aſwell in his owne proper perſon, as by his Prophets and Apoſtles, which hauehave all ſpoken by his ſpirite. Wherefore one may well ſay, that Ieſus Chriſt hath preached vntounto thē, ſith that it was not they that did ſpeake, but Ieſus Chriſt who by his holy ſpirite did ſpeake in them. Thoſe heere do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphore and by an Allegorie, and doe vnderſtande by the ſpirits which were in priſon, the dead, vntounto whom it is ſayd in the chapter following that the Goſpell was preached, ſaying that ſaint Peter by that ſeconde place expoundeth the firſt. Now by theſe dead, vntounto whom hath bene preached, they vnderſtand not the dead: but doe take that word, by a Metaphore, vnderſtanding The liuing called dead.by the dead, the ſinners which are dead thor…w ſinne: the which he hath called before the ſpirits which were in priſon, bicauſe that the ſoule which is dead thorow ſinne, is holden by the ſame, as a priſoner which is in bondes and fetters, in the ſtockes and in priſon. Thoſe which doe expounde it after that manner, notwithſtanding that they doe accorde as touching the interpretation of the words, yet neuertheleſſe they doe a lyt…le differ, touching that ſpirite, by the which Ieſus Chriſt went and preached vntounto the ſpirits which were in priſon. For ſome doe expound VVhat is the ſpirit vvhichwhich hath preached to the dead.it for the manifeſtation of Ieſus Chriſt which hath bene before his comming. Others, for that which hath followed his comming. Theſe heere doe vnderſtand by the ſpirite the holy Ghoſt which Ieſus Chriſt ſent, A &. 2. … 4and gaue vntounto his …poſ…les, by the which he hath preached the Goſpel to the Iewes and …entiles, which before were rebellious and diſobedient vntounto the worde of God. …phe …, …, 2Wherefore hee calleth them rebellyng and diſobedient p. 295ſpirits, deteined in the captiuitie of errour and of ſinne. For although that Ieſus Chriſt aſcended into heauen, and hath taken his body from vsus, yet neuertheleſſe he is alwaies Mat, 18 …ohn, 20 1, Cor. 12.among vsus, by the vertue of his ſpirite, by the which he ſpeaketh in his Apoſtles, Miniſters, and Euangelycall Paſtors, and preacheth and admoniſheth alwayes the ſinners, and toucheth their heart, and conducteth and leadeth their ſpirits by his, for to make them enter into his Church, & for to ſaue the elect in the ſame, as thoſe which were ſaued in the Arke of Noe. There is nothing in this …eneſ. 7. …, … 1, pet. 2. …. 5.expoſition contrary to the Analogie of the faith, and the ſence of the Scriptures. But yet neuertheleſſe it ſéemeth to ſome to be a lyttle allegoriſed and vyolated and to ſtray a lyttle too far front the Apoſtolycal ſimplycitie. Although that it be tollerable and Chriſtian lyke. Others doe vnderſtande by the ſpirite of Chriſt, his eternall vertue, by the which he hath bene long time agone the Sauiour and Iudge of the worlde, as he is at this preſent, the Sauiour by the water, as he doth now by the baptiſme. And therefore they doe vnderſtand that he is gone by his ſpirit, by his diuine vertue, & by his word, thorow out the world, as he paſſed thorow out Aegipt, declaring his power among the Aegyptians & ſauing the Iſraelites. Aſmuch hath hée Exo. 12. & 13 Geneſ.Exod 12done in the time of the floude: and doth yet at this day. For he declareth his Iudgement vntounto the wicked, & hath drowned them in the floude, euen as now he declareth it vntounto all, to the ende that his ſeruaunts may be ſaued in the Arke of the Churche, and the others drowned by the Iudgement of God. Therefore is Noe called the herauld The herold of righteouſnes.of righteouſneſſe for to declare, that by the ſame, the ſpirite of Ieſus Chriſt declareth vntounto men the righteouſnes and Iudgement of God, as a king declareth the warre by an herauld of armes, vntounto thoſe which doe rebell agaynſt him, and refuſe peace. And the word which Saint Peter 2. Pet. 2. …, …,2 Pet 2vſed when he ſayd, y^• Ieſus Chriſt hath preached vntounto the ſpirits, doth not ſignifie onelyonly to preach, but alſo to publiſh a commaundement and an ordinaunce as an Herauld. And that worde herauld, the which Saint Peter vſed ſpeaking of Noe, is taken of the very ſame, of which he vſeth, ſaying that Ieſus Chriſt hath preached vntounto the ſpirites. And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them ſpirits, they The ſpi…ts p…ſo…e…s,thinke that he did it hauing regarde to their thoughtes and affections, beeing poſſeſſed with euill ſpirits. And doe buylde their interpretation vppon that which is written: God did ſée y^• all the thoughts of mans heart was giuen Geneſ. 6. a, 5Gen 6vntounto euill. And vppon that which Saint Paul (ſpeaking of the power which is giuen vntounto him by y^e miniſtring of 2, Cor. … b. 5the Goſpell) ſayth that it is for to beat downe eueryevery high thing, which exalteth it ſelfe agaynſt God, and for to bring into captiuitie the thoughts and ſpirites of men to the obedtence of Chriſt, delyuering them from the ſubiection of the wicked ſpirites which doe holde capti…e the ſpirites, and vnderſtanding of the reprobate. They doe vnderſtand then by the ſpirites which were in priſon, thoſe which were in the ſpirituall priſon, or whoſe ſpirits were deteyned in captiuitie and priſon, by the wicked ſpirits. They hauehave yet regard vntounto that that the ſcripture calleth thoſe Geneſ. 6. a. 2Gen 6which periſhed by the floude, the ſonnes of God, which did ſee the daughters of men: and to that which is there written, that the Lord did ſtrike and deſtroy eueryevery ſoule and taketh from the middes of them eueryevery ſpirite, and that he hath ſayd in threatning them, that he will take from them his ſpirite. For that cauſe they thinke that Saint Peter was induced to call ſuch men ſpirits, bicauſe that whileſt that their ſpirits did ſleepe and were detemed by the wicked ſpirits, they were ouercome and drowned by the waters of the ſloude, and the ſpirit was taken from them, as to him which was ſtrangled and c…oked in the water. They alſo hauehave regarde to that, that that worde which Saint Peter hath vſed, which we doe interprete priſon, doth alſo ſignifie, the watche and warde which is kept in the night: Inſomuch that they thinke that Saynt Peter had regard vntounto the parable of Ieſus Chriſt, which admoniſheth eueryevery one to watch, as the faithfull ſeruant p. 296looking for his maſter, who knoweth not what houre hée will come, whether it be in the ſeconde, thirde, or fourth The ſence and meaning of the vvordes of Saint Peter.watch of the night: and for a full reſolution, they will fall vppon this ſence: Although that Ieſus Chriſt be dead as touching his fleſh, body and humanitie, yet neuertheleſſe he is quickened by the ſpirite, that is to ſay, by his eternall vertue and diuine power, by the which hee is not onelyonly riſen from death, but alſo hath giuen vntounto vsus his quickening fleſh, and hath tourned death into lyfe, quickening by the ſame all thoſe which were dead thorow ſinne, …ohn, 6And to the ende that none ſhould diſpiſe Ieſus Chriſt, bicauſe that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect perſon, he declared that he is ſo dead, that there is no lyfe but in his death: and that none can lyue but by him: and that he is not onelyonly to day, but euerlaſting, and that by the ſame ſpirite and diuine and eternall vertue he Heb. 13. b. …Heb 13is already an other time come vntounto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells, the proude and peruerſe ſpirits, oppreſſed with wicked ſpirites, which were not vnderunder their kéeping, but did ſléepe, not thinking on the iudgement of god, vntil ſuch time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them, as he doth yet at this preſent, by Geneſ, 6, & 7that ſame ſpyrite, by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world, and ſaueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe.

Hillarius.

It ſeemeth that that expoſition is alſo a little vyolated & far fetched, neuertheleſſe it commeth not euill to purpoſe, but ſéemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter.

Theophilus.

Bicauſe that the place is obſcure & hard, I dare not to define & pronounce of it raſhly. But I would gladly put forth theſe expoſitions, to y^t ende you may iudge of thē, & for to awake y^e ſpirits, for to finde out ſome better thing. Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the ſimpleſt, y^t is to ſay, that S. Peter willing to ſhew foorth the efficacie & vertu of Ieſus Chriſt & of his An other expoſitiondeath and paſſion, witneſſeth that it was ſo great, that the lyuing hauehave not onelyonly felt & perceiued it but the dead alſo, vntounto whom it is come. But in what manner or after … … vntounto the deadwhat ſort? How is it communicated vntounto vsus, and all his giftes and graces but by his ſpirite and diuine vertue? Euen as then by his ſpirite he hath giuen vntounto vsus his quickening fleſh, which is vntounto vsus ſpirite and lyfe, and hath Iohn, 6, …. …3communicated vntounto vsus his vertue, ſo hath he manifeſted himſelfe by the ſame ſpirite vntounto the deade, both during their lyſe and after their death. For it is ſayde of Abraham, that he did ſée the day of the Lord, and reioyced. Iohn, 8. …. 56.If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe, felt the efficacie and vertue of Ieſus Chriſt, long time before that he didde offer his eternall ſacrifice, wée cannot doubt, but that he and all the others, which were in his boſome, hauehave felte it more fully, when he did manifeſt himſelfe more fully.

By this we may well vnderſtand, whereto this place can ſerue to proue Purgatory. For if the vertue of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt be of ſuch efficacie, that it goeth vntounto the dead, what néede hauehave we then of Maſſes and Suffrages of the Prieſts for to comfort the dead, and to apply vntounto them the merits of Ieſus Chriſt? ſith The predicatiō to the dead.that none can do it but he himſelf, by the vertue of his ſpirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead. Now hée calleth that manifeſtacion predication: not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth, towards the dead, ſuch as is among the lyuing, but bicauſe that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall miniſtring, Ieſus Chriſt is manifeſted vntounto vsus and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and paſſion.

Alſo the ſpirits of the dead hauehave theirs, but in their maner, and ſuch as apperteineth vntounto them: euen as we doe vnderſtande that God gaue himſelfe to his Angells to be knowen, and to make them taſt of his bountie and goodneſſe, but by an other meane then vntounto vsus, bicauſe that their condition was contrary. We muſt not then dreame The deſcending of Ieſus Chriſt into hell.out a Lymbe and a materiall priſon and a locale deſcending of the ſpirite of Ieſus Chriſt into hell: and a preaching p. 297ſuch as wée hauehave. But wée muſt vnderſtande all thoſe things ſpiritually. For as it is not néedfull that Ieſus Chriſt ſhould deſcend locally from heauen, for to make vsus feele his vertue, ſo it is not neceſſary to deſcend into hell. For the vertue of his ſpirite is ſuch, that it filleth heauen and earth, and is ſpread abrode eueryevery where.

Hillarius,

As I thinke, our dreaming Theologians had very much leaſure, whē they ſetled themſelues to diſpute, whether the ſoule of Ieſus Chriſt did ſuffer in the hell. Amongeſt the which, ſome of them are founde to bée of opinion, that he did.

Theophilus.

If they had wel vnderſtanded that which Ieſus Chriſt ſayd vntounto the théefe: This day ſhalt thou Lue, 13. ff. …3be with me in Paradiſe, and how Ieſus Chriſt deſcended into hell, when his ſoule was ſorrowfull, and in anguiſh, euen vntounto the death, and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God, and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curſe, and the dampnation due vntounto our ſinnes, inſomuch that he was ſtroken & beaten of God, & hath ſuffered death, after which he deſcended into the ſepulchre or graue, they ſhould not hauehave néeded againe to make the ſoule of Ieſus Chriſt to deſcend from Paradiſe, in which it was, for to goe into hell. For it is ſufficiently giuen vntounto the ſpirites of his elect to vnderſtand, which hauehave receiued conſolation, and vntounto thoſe of the reprobate, declaringe vntounto them from what goodneſſe they were depriued without deſcending or aſſending.

Euſebius.

To what purpoſe then doth he ſpeake of the priſon? and what other thing can hée vnderſtand but the Lymbe? of which it is alſo ſpoken in Zachery, ſaying: I hauehave let thy priſoners out of the pit where is no water.The Li…e. Za…h, …, …

Theophilus.

By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vsus to vnderſtand none other thing, but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon, he will deliuer his people y^t are captiue, kept in y^e bottom of all miſeries. By the priſoners, he vnderſtandeh his people that bée in The priſoners. The vvells.capti…itie, by y^• euils he vnderſtandeth a captinitie, a goulſe and bottome of all miſerye, from which it is not poſſible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himſelfe. Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth: yea yet without water, in which one cannot ſwimme: to the ende they may the better knowe their miſerie, and the grace and mercy of God towardes them. When S. Peter did ſpeake of y^e priſon of the ſpirits, The priſonhe did it for to amplyfie the better y^e grace of the Goſpell, comparing thoſe which wer vnderunder y^e ſeruitude & bondage of y^e law, & vnderunder thoſe ſhadows & figures vntounto thoſe which ſhall be in a priſon in reſpect of thoſe which hauehave receiued the light of y^e goſpell. But we muſt not therefore dreame, that y^e boſome of Abraham was a priſon, or a Caſtle, as we hauehave alredy declared in the other diſputacion. But we muſt be aduiſed & know y^t thoſe things are ſpoken by a compariſon, as we hauehave already declared the examples.

Thomas.

It ſéemeth that Saint Peter ſpeaketh not, but of the reprobate. For after that hée hath ſpoken of thoſe ſpirits which wer in priſon, he addeth which late or ſometune were rebells.

Theophilus.

…. Cor.He ſpeaketh generally of all. For euen as the Goſpell is a ſweete ſauour of lyfe, to lyfe vntounto thoſe which are ſaued, and a ſauour of death, to death vntounto thoſe that periſh, ſo the death of Ieſus Chriſt bringeth a great reioycing, both to the Angells and to all the bleſſed ſpirits, and more greater confuſion and grieuous dampnation vntounto the wicked and reprobate. But after that he ſpake generally of the ſpirits he purſued not all the two parts, but ſtayed himſelfe onelyonly to the diſobedient and rebells, bicauſe that he is fallen into that matter ſpeaking of afflictions. Wherefore for to comfort the faythfull, he Gene…. …. …ſ…ayed to declare vntounto them y^e vertue which Ieſus Chriſt hath, for to ſaue his, as he ſaued Noe and his family in the Arke: and for to puniſh the wicked and perſecutors, as he hath drowned the Gyants by the floud. For that cauſe he ſtayed to declare the Iudgement of god, as in the chapter following, ſaying: that Ieſus Chriſt ſhall Iudge the p. 2981. P…. …. b. ….quicke and the dead. For vntounto this purpoſe verely was the Goſpell preached vntounto the dead, that they ſhould bée iudged lyke other men in the fleſh, but ſhould lyue before God in the ſpirite.

Thomas.

By that which thou ſayeſt, thou doeſt declare vntounto vsus that that place, concludeth not y^t ther is any other Limbe nor Purgatory, then ſuch which thou haſt ſhewed vntounto vsus from the beginning. But what ſayeſt thou touching the preaching of the which we hauehave ſpoken which ought to be done vntounto the ſpirits after this lyfe.

Theophilus,

Firſt of all as touching thoſe which are Thoſe vvhichwhich hauehave not beleued in this vvorld.departed out of this world, without hauing one grayne of that ſeede of the feare of God, but hauehave altogether reſiſted his ſpirite, and the naturall lyght and knowledge that hée hath giuen vntounto them, or at the preaching of his goſpell we cannot leaue vntounto them any preaching, nor any other remedy after their death, for their ſaluation: except wée wil fall into the error of the Origeniſts and Anabaptiſts. Iohn. … c, 1…For it is written: He which beléeueth not in the Sonne of God is already condempned. But if it be a queſtion of the elect, which hauehave had alredy in this world ſome grain of the ſeede of God, which hauehave walked in his feare, although that they hauehave bene yet wrapped in many errors. and darkeneſſe, there is an other conſideration. Not that I doe vnderſtand that the goſpell is preached vntounto them after they are departed out of this lyfe, otherwiſe, ſaying that they ſhall hauehave more ful knowledge of that, that they hauehave onelyonly héere known, as amongſt the midſt of darkeneſſe. For if they be the ſonnes of God, the ſeede of god 1. Iohn. …. …. 9 Cornelius Act. 10 ….Acts 10which is in them ſhall ſaue them: As wee may iudge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion.

Before that he had heard the preaching of Saint Peter, he had not perfect knowledge of Ieſus Chriſt. Hée was yet a Panim: but he was not therefore altogether without the ſeede of the feare of GOD, nor without ſome beginning of fayth & obſcure knowledge of IESVS CHRIST: Or otherwiſe his prayers and almes deedes ſhoulde not hauehave bene approued of God, whome Heb. 11, b, 6.Heb 11one cannot pleaſe without fayth. If he had then dyed before that S. Peter was come vntounto him, I do not thinke therefore, that he had ben altogether reiected and forſaken of God: and that that knowledge ſufficed him not to ſaluation: or that he had not giuen himſelfe more fully to be knowne of him either by ſome diuine inſpiration: or by ſome other meanes, ſuch as it pleaſeth him: yea, in the Article of the death, or at his laſt gaſpe, rather then to ſuffer him to periſh. As we may preſume as wel of the Iewes, as of the Panims, who before the comming and manifeſtation of Ieſus Chriſt in the fleſh, had the lawe of God written in their heartes: notwithſtanding that they hauehave Rom 2. …. 1….Rom 2not had altogether ſo full knowledge of Ieſus Chriſt, as we hauehave at this preſent. For although that the knowledge VVhat knovvledge of God is neceſſary to ſaluation.of Ieſus Chriſt be vntounto all men neceſſary to ſaluation, it followeth not therefore, that none can be ſaued, if it be not full and perfect in him. For who euer had in this world ſo full knowledge of him, and a faith ſo perfect, that he had nothing to ſay? There was neuer ſuch a one found in this world. It ſufficeth then that that knowledge & faith, hath taken roote in vsus, & that we do trauaile as much as we can poſſible to augment and increaſe it. And afterwards when we ſhall doe our endeuour, as much as we can, the Lord which hath begun his worke in vsus will bring it to paſſe, and will ſupply and recompenſe thorow his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we hauehave receiued of him (euen as he doth of our workes, which are all imperfect, bicauſe of the imperfection of our faith) ſo that ther be not diſpiſing, and to great negligence in vsus, which cannot be but to the reprobate. Euen then as GOD, by his great mercye ſupporteth the imperfection of our fayth, and ceaſeth nor leaueth off to receiue vsus for his children, ſo that the ſeede and the roote of the ſame be quickened in vsus, ſo I cannot vpholde and mainteine by anye witneſſe of the holy Scripture, that any ſhould hauehave iuſt occaſion to hope for ſaluation after this lyfe, which from p. 299the ſame ſhall bée departed without any knowledge of God & of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne. Wherefore I doe holde me to that which the Scripture hath reuealed vntounto me, & do leaue the reſt with the ſecrete iudgements of God, which are hid from vsus and couered. But yet neuertheleſſe I think that it is alwayes moſt ſure, to trauaile very much after the knowledge of the truth, whileſt that wée be in this worlde, that wee may hauehave ſo much as is néedfull for our ſaluation: and that our deſpiſing be not any cauſe vntounto vsus of dampnation. And if wée doe our endeuour, wee are very ſure that the Lorde will not faile vsus, and that he will not hide himſelfe or withdrawe himſelfe from vsus, if wée doe ſeeke him and deſire to approch and come vntounto him. For it is impoſſible, that hee wil hide himſelfe from thoſe whom he hath choſen, & whō he hath purpoſed to glorifie, and to make them bleſſed by his knowledge. And notwithſtanding that wée hauehave not all of vsus, ſo great and high knowledge of him, nor ſo many of his gi…tes and graces as his Prophetes and Apoſtles, yet neuertheleſſe hee will giuegive vsus as much as ſhall be neceſſary and expedient for vsus: wherewith wée ought to content our ſelues. Behold that that I had to ſay vponupon that pointe, and whereto I will ſtaye my ſelfe, without ſeking any further.

Thomas.

And I with thée: And praiſed be God for that I did finde your company, in which I hauehave heard ſo many good doctrines, and debating of ſo many good points of religion, of which I was before in great doubt, & had my conſcience much troubled. But nowe, the grace of God hath reſolued mée, and hath ſette my conſcience at reſt. And thou Euſebius, haſt thou chaunged thy opinion?

Euſebius.

I doe yéelde my ſelfe: and doe confeſſe that I can no longer withſtande the truth: and doe render thanckes vntounto GOD which hath deliuered mée from thoſe great darkeneſſe, errours and abuſes, in whiche I was fallen into and drowned. For I was in greate daunger to be altogether loſt, if God thorowe his grace had not retyred and pulled me backe. And ſo much as I did thinke that I was in the right way, ſo much was the daunger the greater.

Thomas.

I am very glad to heare ſuch words of thée. For he that would hauehave ſworne vntounto me at the beginning when I did ſee thée ſo contrary vntounto Theophilus & vntounto Hillarius, that thou ſhouldeſt hauehave come vntounto this reſolution, I would neuer hauehave beleeued it.

Euſebius.

No more would I. But that which is impoſſible to men, is poſſible to God, who hath the hearts of Mat. 1…. d, …6 Pro. …1. a, 1.Matt 1Prov 1his in his hand, and chaungeth them as it pleaſeth him. And therefore we ought neuer to viſpaire of the conuerſion or of the ſaluation of any man, whileſt that we do ſée ſome little ſparke of the feare of God to ſhine in them, vntill ſuch time as we doe ther openly ſée reſiſtaunce againſt the knowen truth and the ſpirite of God.

Hillarius.

I hauehave not loſt altogether the hope. For I was well aſſured, that thou wouldeſt not reſiſt the truth thorow malice, but onelyonly thorow ignoraunce. And God will not leaue ſuch men willingly alwayes in errour, but will drawe them out of it in the time that he hath ordeined: As we hauehave the example of Saul the great perſecutor, whome he hath made an Apoſtle and Euangeliſt of Saul… being a perſecutor, made an apoſtle Act 9. …. 1.Acts 9the Doctrine which hée blaſphemed, and hath tourned a madde Wolfe, into the moſt excellenteſt Paſtour y^t euer was in his Church. But ſith that God hath ſhewed vntounto vsus that grace and fauour, that we be all falled into a good concord, and vnitie, and that he hath conuerted and turned our warre, into ſo greate a peace, wée ought as well to remember to prepare the Funeralls for the The burning of Purgatory.Lymbe and Purgatorye, ſith that they are deade and readye to bée buryed. But let vsus bée aduiſed who ſhall furniſhe the funerall pompe, and the Suffrages and Obſequies, and who ſhall doe the office.

Then muſt ringe the Belles Thomas, and Euſebius ſhall cary the Croſſe: and Theophilus the holye Water p. 300ſtoppe: and I will carye the ſprinckle and will doe the office, and the Prieſtes and Moonkes ſhall mourne.

Thomas.

I néede not to ringe the bells, for his death will be ſufficiently publiſhed abroade without that: And the Prieſtes will ſoone know of it without Bells, when they ſhall ſée their Kitchin to be ſo colde, and that the fire ſhall bée altogether extinct and put out. You ſaye in ſpeakinge of the lamentations whiche the Prieſtes dooe make after the dead, that they doe make pitious moane about them, as to the outwarde appearaunce by wrything their mouthes, but doe laughe inwardlye in their heartes. But I doe not doubt, that in this forrowe and lamentation héere, that they will not doe it faynedly, but that they will wéepe earneſtly. For they did neuer bury parentes nor friendes, whoſe death was ſo deere vntounto them, and which dyd bring vntounto them more greater ſorrow nor domage.

Hillarius.

I do greatly feare leaſt it happen vntounto them as to the labourer of whome Eſope ſpeaketh off. He rehearſeth a fable of a woeman who had newly buryed hir The fable of y^e fayned mourning of a laborer.huſbande, who did goe eueryevery daye to his graue to wéepe and lament. Nowe there was a labourer which ploughed in a fielde which was not farre from the Churchyarde. Wherefore hée ſeeing that woeman, and was in louelove with hir, inſomuch that hée lefte his Oxen, and went alſo vntounto the graue, and beeing there ſette downe, dyd alſo wéepe with the woeman. When the woeman aſked him wherefore hée ſo lamented, hée aunſwered hir: bicauſe ſaith hée, that I hauehave buryed a faire and an honeſt woman, for whome I am much ſorrowfull and ſad. But after that I hauehave well wept and lamented, I am eaſed of my ſorrow. And the woman ſayd vntounto him: Euen ſo is it chaunced to me of my huſband. Wherevpon the labourer aunſwered vntounto hir. For as much then as both of vsus are fallen into one miſfortune, wherefore maye we not marye together? For I will louelove thée, as I loued my firſt wife, and thou ſhalt leue mée in like manner as thou diddeſt louelove thy firſt huſbande. By thoſe woordes …ee he did put that into the woemans head, in ſo much that they accorded together. But whileſt that hee vſed that deceite and plaide the Foxe with the poore woman, ther came a théefe more wily thē he, which ſtole away his Oxen and caryed them away. When hée was retourned and that he founde not his Oxen, hée did begin to wéepe and lament, and to ſtrike his breſt very bitterly. The woeman alſo came: and when ſhée had founde him weeping and lamenting, ſhée ſayd vntounto him Doeſt thou wéepe yet. And hée aunſwered vntounto hir: nowe I wéepe earneſtly. Before his teares were fained and did but wéep… outwardly, and laughed in his heart as our Prieſtes do at the Funeralls and Obſequies of the dead. But I am altogether certeine, that there ſhall bée no ieſtinge nor Crocodiles teares, in the burying of their Purgatorye. For as ſoone as he ſhall be dead, the Maſſe ſhall not liue longe after. And ſo they ſhall hauehave two bodyes whiche will bringe vntounto them great ſorrowe and heauineſſe. But I beléeue that they will not beſtowe ſo much money about them, for to make their good déedes, as they hauehave gotten and heaped together by their meanes. But let vsus ſuffer them to wéepe their fill, as well as they hauehave made others wéepe, & let vsus ſinge when they wéepe. Neuertheleſſe I will yet doe for them this ſeruice, to make for them a lamentation and complaint, to moue them the better to pittie and compaſſion vponupon that poore dead body. For me thinckes that I doe heare them already lament in this wiſe.

Now let vsus lament we Moonkes and we Nunnes.

Prieſts, bawdes and whoores, with our baſtard ſonnes.

For now the hot Furnaces quenched are

that hauehave made vsus fat with their deintie fare.

Now we may compt our ſelues in euill caſe

for the good time we had hath loſt his place.

p. 301And dead is he that did heape vp in cheſt,

Money wherewith we made our Gaudemus.

Alas he is now at peace and at reſt,

Wherefore let vsus ſing an other Oremus.

Let vsus ſuffer them to ſing that in ſtéede of Vigiles and of Libera me, and of their Fidelium, and I will make his Epitaph, which ſhall ſerue him for his latter Oremus.

O gentle ſir Iohn, who of Purgatory

Haſt gotten ſo much of ſiluer and golde:

Make ſpeedely to be known to all of the Popry,

To ſing Requiem aeternam for his ſweete ſoule.

By him an Epicures lyfe thou didſt lead,

But now alas he is dead an hath no place:

And with him thy earthly kingdome is dead.

Sing for him then Requieſcant in pace.

Thomas.

Amen. Now ſith that he is buryed let vsus goe to Supper, that he may hauehave alſo his funerall Supper, and that wée may as well banket as the prieſts in thoſe of the dead in the dayes of their Anniuerſaries & yeares minde.

Hillarius.

Let vsus goe.

FINIS.