The Christian Disputations — Pierre Viret

The Christian Disputations · Pierre Viret

Theophilus.

Sainct Iohn ſpeaketh it bycauſe that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of God. He ſayth not other mens workes, but theyr owne workes. For as man lyueth of his owne ſoule, and not of the ſoule of an other mans, euen ſo doth the righteous man of his faith. And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith, & not of the faith of an other, euen ſo ſhal eueryevery one be iudged according to his workes, and not after Abac. 2. a. 4. Rom. 1. b. 17 Rom. 2. a. 6thoſe that other men ſhall doe. For it is written: EueryEvery one ſhall beare his owne burthen. And therefore Ieſus Chriſt ſayth: by thy worde & thou ſhalt bee iuſtified: and by thy wordes thou ſhalt be condemned: That is ſo ſaye thy Gala. 6. b. 5 Mat. 12. d. 37. Wherefore the Iudgement shal be according to the vvoorkeswordes and thy workes ſhal beare witnes, of thy heart, and by them thou ſhalt, bée iuſlified, that is to ſaye, abſolued, declared and pronounced iuſt and righteous: O… by them thou ſhalt be condem…ned, knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation. Not that God néedeth any witnes of our workes, for to know whether we are worthy of abſolution or condēnation. For he knoweth y^• hearts, & néedeth none other witnes but his owne. Pſa. 159. a. 2 …. 9 …. 30 …. 4But y^• ſcripture vſeth ſuch māner of ſpeaking for to apply it to our capacitie, for to manifeſt & declare vntounto vsus better y^e Iuſt Iudgemēt of god, which wil ſhew foorth y^• h…pecri…e of mā heart. For mā how wicked ſoeuer his heart be, he wold alwaies hide it: & if one put it to his own cō …c…éce although y^• he do condemne it, he wil not for y^• leaue off to aduaſice & brag he y^• le an honeſt man, vntil ſuch time as he he také with his wicked déed, as y^• theefe w^t his ſtea…ing. For he is ſo peruers & wicked although y^• be be taken w^t the deed, he wil excuſe himſelf: And as y^• ſhameles whore, is not a ſhamed to deny y^• which we ſee w^t our eyes, & hanole w^t our hands: As we hauehave an example in Came. Although Gene. 4. b. 9.that he killed his brother, and y^• his handes were yet all blouddy and wette with the bloud that he …ad ſhed, it ſeemeth to heare him ſpeake, that God did vntounto him greate miury and wronge, in aſking him where he is. And therefore God would vanquiſhe the malyce and peruerſitie of mans hearte, and condemne it by the workes that are manifeſt, for to declare vntounto him, and to make him confeſſe by the fruite, that he is the roote a…d the tree, to the ende that he may not glorify himſelf to be the Figge & the O life Mat. 7. c. 16tree, when one doth emdently ſhewe vntounto him the thornes & thiſtles that it hath born. And euen ſo eueryevery creature is conſtrayned to acknowledge and conf…ſſe, that the iudgement of God is iuſt, and that it conſiſteth in all truth and equitie. Now the workes y^• men do for vsus, after that wee The vvorks dene for vsus after our death.bee dead, are not ours. Wherefore wee cannot ſaye, that they follow vsus. For it is another matter to bee in the way and iourney, and to hauehave already ended his iourney and to be arriued at the port, whyleſt that we are in the courſe of this preſent life, he taketh vsus as a ſree which yet groweth, the which one may dreſſe and proyne, for to To be in the vvaymake him beare fruite. But when he is once cut downe, ther is no more hope, he lieth wher lie falleth, he muſt trauayle no more afterwards. In like maner may we iudge of man. Whileſt y^• he is in y^e way, & that he is in his courſe & Luc. 13. b. 6ſight, one may aide him by admonitiōs, entreatings & other morkes of charitie, which we owe y^• one to y^• other, whilſt y^• we are herein y^e work of god, for vsus to helpe the one the other to obteine & win the victory. But after that he hath called vsus from the worke in the which he hath ſet vsus, wée muſt attend and looke no more but for the rewarde and Crowne of righteouſenes, the which the righteous Iudge ſhall giuegive vntounto vsus, as Sainct Paul hoped for himſelfe, as 2. Timo. 4. b. …we hauehave fought for him the good fight, and hauehave fulfilled our courſe and hauehave kept the faith vntounto the ende: On the contrary, we muſt looke for feare, confuſion, and eternall death, as the ſlougthfull ſeruant, vnfaithfull and vngrations, we hauehave hid away and ſtollen the Talent away Mat. 25. c. 26from our Maiſter, without bringing vntounto him any profit. Mat. 3. b. 8.Therefore Sainct Iohn ſaith: Bring foorth fruites worthy of repentance: that is to ſay, thorow which you ſhewe foorth that truely you repent you of your ſinnes, and that you hauehave amended your euill life. For the are is put vntounto the roote of the tree, ſo that eueryevery tree whiche bringeth not foorth good fuite, is hewen downe and caſt in to the fire. Uppon that ma…ter Sainct Auguſtine did writte Mat. 3. c. 10.vntounto Macedonius after this manner: There is no other place for to correct and amende manners, then in this life. Augu. Epiſt. 54For after this life eueryevery one ſhall hauehave that that hee hath gottē here. And in another place he ſaith: In this world the Sermo 66. de temporemercy of god helpeth thoſe y^• rep…t: But in y^• world to come repētance profiteth not, but we muſt rīder accompt of our works. Liberty of repētance is only giuen vntounto vsus in this life, after y^• we be dead there is no more licr̄ce of correctiō. Now is y^• time of mercy, after wards ſhalbe y^e time of iudgment. And in expoūding thoſe words of Ieſus Chriſt: Hee In 10. tract. 12. Marc. 16. d. 16which beleeueth not is already iudged, ſaith after this mā ner. The iug…ei…ēt appereth not yet, but y^• iudgemēt is already done. For y^• Lord knoweth who are his. He knoweth 2. Tim. 2. d. 1…thoſe which abyde looking & farryng for the crown, & thoſe which abyde looking for the fire. Moreouer Sainct Iohn Chuſoſtome ſpeaketh more plainely, confirming that Chriſoſleme de L. 12. t. con. 2.which I hauehave ſaid, in ſuch words: Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end, and prepare thy ſelf to the way, and if thou haſte taken any thing by violence from anye man, reſtore it againe: and make reſtitution, and ſay with Luc. 19. b. 8Zachens: if I hauehave taken from any man by forged cauilatiō, I reſtore him foure fould. If thou art angry with any man, agree with him, before that thou do come vntounto iudgement: diſpatche here al things, that without let thou mayſt ſée that Iudictall ſeate. All the while that wee are here in this world we hauehave goodly hopes, but aſſone as we ſhalbe gone from thence, it lyeth no more in oure power to doe penaunce, nor to deface and put out our ſinnes. For after y^e Hom. 22 and popu. In Mat. 11 Hom. 37. In Heb. c. 1. & 2. Hom. 4.end of our life, there is no more occaſion of merites, no more then there is vntounto thoſe y^e play at priſes & games, to obtaine crownes and rewardes after that the combat, play and priſes are finiſhed and ended. For he which in this preſent life hath not waſhed away his ſinnes, afterwards he ſhal finde no conſolation. For in hell (as it is written) who ſhall confeſſe thee? That is to ſay, who ſhall prayſe Pſa. 6. b. 6thee in the graue? And by good reaſon. For this is the time of the Theators, of Combals, Playes, and Priſes: But y^e ſhalbe the time of the Crownes, rewards and ſalaryes. Alſo let vsus not thinke when we ſhall be come thyther, that we ſhall hauehave mercy, which do nothing at all, wherefore we ought to hauehave pardon: No though Abraham, Noe, Iob, and Daniell did pray for vsus. Whileſt then wee hauehave time, let vsus prepare for our ſelues great truſt and aſſurance towards God. And Sainct Hierome ſaith no leſſe, confeſſing that Hierome. 12. q. 2. Inpreſenti. Ambroſius. lib. de bon. mor. ca. 2.in the other world. And Sainct Ambroſe, is of the ſame opinion, ſaying, Dauid required that his ſinnes might bee pardoned him before that he departed out of this life. For he that ſhall not here in this life receaue forgiueneſſe of his ſinnes, ſhal not hauehave it in the other: he ſhall not hauehave it bicauſe he ſhall not hauehave the power to come and attaine to the eternal life. For y^e forgiuenes of ſinnes, is the eternall life. Therfore ſaith hee: pardon mee O Lorde, that I may bee comforted before that I goo and ſhall be no more. And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papiſticall doctrine, which is ſo repugnant both to the holy ſcriptures, and to the witneſſe of the auncient Doctors of the CyprianChurche. Sainct Cyprian hath written, in the Sermon that he made of the immortalitie, that the faithfull that do dye, hauehave taken white robes and garments, By which he The office ſorthe dead Domine Ieſu Chreſte rex glorie libera ammas omnium ſidelium deſire torum & de penis inferni de profundo lacu Lsbera, eas de ore leonis, ne ab ſor beat eas tar tarus, ne cadūt in obſcuro ſed ſignifer ſanctus Michael rpreſentet eas in lucem ſanctam quam olim Abrahe promiſiſls & ſeminie ius Quia in inſerno nulla est redemptio. Mantua. 3. calami Sed ne que rex Ereli quem que tranare paludi Nee ſuper is ite rū reddt ſinit The ſignificatiō of hell.meaneth, that they are come to the beatitude and felicitie, and feacheth, that we muſte wéepe no more for the dead. Sith that they are alreadie in the eſtate of felicitie. But me thinkes that the Prieſtes do not take them to bee aſſured of the eternall life whom they lodge in their Purgatory, but that from Purgatory, they may yet fall into hell: Or if they vnderſtand it not ſo, wherefore do they ſing in the offertory of the Maſſe for the dead? Domine Ieſu Chriſti &c. That is to ſay, O Lord Ieſu Chriſt king of glory deliuer the ſoules of all the faithfull that dye from the paines of hell, and from the déepe lake. Deliuer thē from y^e Lions mouth, leaſt y^e in hell he deuour thē, leſt y^e they fal not in y^e obſcure & dark places, but y^e S. Michel y^e ſtandard bearer do repreſent thē into the holy light, which of late thou diddeſt promiſe vntounto Abraham and to his ſeed.

Thomas.

Mee thinkes that this is repugnant vntounto that which Euſebius hath ſpoken before, and to that which the Prieſts do ſing, ſaying: that in hell there is no raunſome nor delyuerance. And yet nenertheleſſe, they pray here in that o…fertory, vntounto Ieſus Chriſt, that he wil deliuer them from the paines of hell. It muſt then needes follow, that eyther their prayer is vaiue, and that they demaunde a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impoſſible and contrary vntounto his will, or that there is aſwel deliuerance in hell as in Purgatory, and that they ſpeake againſt themſelues, or els that hell & Purgatory be al one thing.

Euſebius.

Thy diſiunetiue is not good. For not, withſtanding y^e commonly men take hell for the hell fire and the place of the dampned, yet neuertheleſſe it may bee vnderſtanded more amply for y^t low places and coſitries, & the eſtate & condicion of the dead: after this manner, his ſignification ſhall comprehende & contrine alſo the Purgatory, as it doth in this place here.

Hillarius.

We muſte then expounde it of the paines of hell, that is to ſay, of the paines of Purgatory.

Euſebius.

It cannot be vnderſtanded otherwiſe.

Thomas.

And what ſhall we vnderſtand by the deepe lake?

Euſebius.

The very ſame.

Thomas,

There is then alſo a lake in Purgatory?

Hillarius.

You do well Thomas to be affrayd, Did you neuer here before, how y^e prieſts did pay y^e ſeriage for to hauehave y^e dead paſſe ouer? It is then neceſſarye y^e they hauehave their fery man Charon, for to let paſſe & repaſſe y^e ſoules, aſwel Charon the fery man.as y^e Panims & Poets had. Now if there be a Charon & a fery man, he cānot carry ouer ſoules w^tout y^e there is ſeas lakes, or ryuers, for to caryhis boats, ſcyfes, ſhips, barkes & gallies.

Thomas.

But I am greatly abaſhed wherfore wée do call thoſe that dye, in the french tongue treſpaſſes. Thinke that it was bicauſe that they were already paſſed vvherefore vve do call the dead bodyes in french treſpailes.from this life in the other. But as farre as I can perceiue it is rather bicauſe that they hauehave paſſed ouer thoſe infernall lakes and reuers.

Hillarius.

I doe beléeue that the Chriſtians and true faithfull people hauehave called their dead treſpaſſes: ſignifiyng by y^t ſame that the death of the faithfull is no death, but only a paſſage for to enter into life, & thoſe which are dead Iohn. 5. a. 24in y^e faith of Ieſus Chriſt, according to his promiſes, are paſſed from death to life. And therfore they are rightly called treſpaſſes bicauſe y^e they are already paſſed ouer, & are come vntounto the port of health, in which they reſt in ioy and conſolation w^c Ieſus Chriſt their Lorde, hauing eſcaped all the daūgers, & the great gculfes of y^e ſea of this world, The Pope Pinto, Eacus, Minos, Rhadamantus and Neoptolemus.of ſinne, death & hell. But ſithence y^e the pope hath begun to reign in ſtéed of Ieſus Chriſt, & y^e he hath take the office of Pluto y^e god of hel, & of Eacus, Minos, Rhadamantus, and Neoptolemus y^e infernal iudges, as a newe king, hée would chaūge y^e laws, eſtates, habitations & māners of huing of his ſubiects y^e be dead, aſwel as of thoſe y^• be aliue, The decrees & Canous of Leſus Chriſt.& endeuoreth himſelfe w^c all his power & ſtrength to aboliſh & put out y^e laws, ordinances, inſtitutions, holy Canōs & inuiolated decrées, which Ieſus Chriſt hath giuen aſwel to y^e liuing as to y^e dead by his prophets & apoſtles, paſſed, confirmed, ratefied & ſealed by the arreſt of the celeſtiall & beauenly court & by the great counſell & wiſedome of god, of the holy trinitie of y^e father, the ſonne & the holy ghoſt, of all the angels & archangels, Saincts & Sainctes, patriarkes, apoſtles, Euangeliſts, Martirs, Confeſſors & Mirgins, to the end y^• the faithful w^cout any other, ſhould hauehave place in heauen, in earth & in hell.

Theophilus.

He woulde The Emperors & Pope do abolish the ſtatutes of their predeceſſours.do vntounto Ieſus Chriſt, as the Romaine Emperors, & the Popes hauehave done many times the one againſt the other, making fruſtrate, & boyd y^e which their predeceſſors hauehave made & ordeined. For in aſmuch as they hauehave made Ieſus Chriſt the firſt pope, & S. Peter y^e ſeconde, I thinke, y^e it ſeemeth good vntounto thē, y^e aſwell they maye abrogate & make boide their ordinances, as they hauehave done thoſe of other Popes their predeceſſors, changing moſt ofcē times y^e that the firſt hauehave ordeyned, & making fruſtrate their counſels & decrées, eſpecially ſithence y^e time of pope Stephen, who made boide al y^e which Formoſus his predeceſſor had don. Ieſus Chriſt the eternall Plipe, Plat. in vita Stepha. 6. & Formoſus. 1. Stephan. 6. For moſus 1. Antibopes & SchiſmatickesBut they do in that great wrong vntounto Ieſus Chriſt that ſithēce he is riſen againe there are ſo many popes riſen vp in his place. For they wil not ſuffer that one ſhould chooſe another whilſt they are aliue: or if that be done, they call him antipope y^e is choſen in ſpite of their bearde, and hold for ſciſinaticks aſwel him as thoſe that hauehave choſen him & which are Ioyned w^c him. They call him antipope who ſetteth himſelf againſt him whē they eſtéeme to be y^e Chriſt & Antechriſt. Rom. 6. a. 4 1. Cor. 15. b. 12 Ephe. 1. d. 28 & 2. b. 6 Coloſſ. t. c. 18. Mat. 28. d. 20true pope, eue as we ſet antichriſt againſt Chriſt. Sith thē y^e Ieſus Chriſt is riſe frō death he is immortal, & ſhall dye no more, but ſhal abiee & dwel eternally w^t his churche, of which he is y^e only head, according to y^• promiſe y^• hee hath made to his diſciples, ſaying: beld I am with you vntill the ende of the world: For aſmuch alſo as that great hea…nly father, of whom proceedeth all fatherly louelove y^• is called Ephe. 3. c. 15 Daniel. 7. 1 22y^• olde aged, of whom Daniel ſpeaketh off, he hath giuen vntounto him al iudgment, power & ſeigniory both in heauen & in earth, & hath made him to be called by his prophet, the father of the world to come, Prince of peace, willing y^• in y^• name of Ieſus ſhould eueryevery knee how, both of Eſa. 9 b 6 Phll. 2. b. 10 Apo. …. d. 13things in heauen & things in earth and thinges vnderunder the earth, I am greatly abaſhed frō whence this ouer boldnes & raſhnes ſhould proceed to create & thoſe other popes then he, ſith y^• he is alwayes aliue, & y^• he is the Lord of y^• quick and of the dead, and his kingdome hath nene ende.

Hillarius.

They cannot denie but that they are al Antipopes. That is to ſay contrary and enemies to the true Hope, & ſo conſequently heritickes and ſchiſmatickes. For ſith y^• Ieſus Chriſt is the true Chriſt, & true Pope, that is All Popes Antipopes & Anticuriſtsto ſay, the father of y^• Chriſtian Church, it followeth that they are Antichriſts & Antipapes of the churche of Ieſus Chriſt, & true & lawful Popes of y^• of Antichriſt. y^• which hath not onelyonly of trepaſſe but alſo paſſed, repaſſed & trepaſſed, which neuer ſhall finde reſt. For they muſt firſte paſſe into Purgatory, & after repaſſe, for to put them out, & againe to paſſe all ouer for to put them in the Popes The Papiſticall …irgesparadiſe. But as ſlowly as they can, when they can gette no more money. Wherefore it muſt needes be y^• there are lakes & ryuers, at the leaſt, inſomuch as y^• Poets doe declare The lakes and internall finds.it, ſith that we muſt ſo much paſſe and repaſſe.

Thomas.

But how can y^• fire & water agrée together if Fire. & vvater.there are ſo many riuers & deepe waters, it ſeemeth to me y^• it is great folly, to caſt y^• holy water vpō y^• graues, & vpō y^• dead, ſith that they hauehave ſuch ſlore below with them. If Holy vvater vn profitable.I were below in Durgatory within that fire. which is ſo hot & burning, I would finde the meanes, if it were poſſible, to get me neere vntounto thoſe riuers, & would plunge my ſelfe therein, as a Ducke and a Coote.

Hillarius.

I would not that the Prieſts ſhould ſing & pray for mee, that I might be deliuered from y^• deepe lake, for I had rather to be a fiſh, and to dwell therein alwaies.

Thomas.

Thou cauſe be no better at thine eaſe. For thou ſhalt be alwayes in the freſh water, and maiſt drinck when thon wilt.

Hillarius.

That ſhould be a goodly paſtime for y^• drunckardes, if thoſe ſlouds were of wine, & for thoſe that dwell vponupon the mountaines, if it were of milke, as in the time of Saturne, and in the time of the golden Age, if the Fluds of vvyne & of milke. Ouid. Meta. 1 Flumina Iam lactis, Iam flumina nectaris ibant. The infernall fluddes their names & interpretations. Lethe, Acherō, Styx, Cocytus, Phlogeton.witneſſe of the Poets be true. But I rather feare that thoſe are not alwaies that, as the Poets hauehave ſayd, and that one cannot alwaies attribute vntounto them their auncient names: Although that the Pope raigneth there in ſtéede of Pluto. For the one is called, Lethe, y^• is to ſay, obliuion: An other Acheron, that is to ſay, without Ioy: An other Stix, that is to ſay, ſadneſſe: An other Cocytus, that is to ſay, mourning and lamentation: An other Phlegeton, that is to ſaye, heate. Now what other thing can there be in the Popes Purgatory, if it be ſuch as they hauehave deſcribed vntounto vsus. I finde it in nothing to differ from the Poeticall hels. Wherfore they doe no great wrong, if they do ſing: Deliuer them from the déepe lake, and from the Lyons mouth. Syth that that roaring Lyon is there, it muſt of force bée that it is hell. But they fayle in this that they hauehave not directed their prayer vntounto the Pope, and hys, which hauehave caſte the ſoules therein and holde them there, and not vntounto Ieſus Chriſt, who handeleth not ſo cruelly thoſe of his faythfull ſeruauntes. But truely thoſe which wyll not drincke of the fountaine ef life of our Sauiour Ieſ…s, and of hys goodlye Pſa. 12. a. 3 & 55. …. 1. Iere. 2. c. 13.ſwéete riuers, which are more ſweeter then either wine or milke, are well worthy to drincke of thoſe bile and ſtincking papiſticall Ceſterns, and to be plunged and drowned in thoſe pits and infernall lakes, and to lyue in the yron Age.

Euſebius.

Thou blameſt the Sophiſters, but I neuer The ſignificatioſ the deepe lake.ſawe a greater Sophiſter nor greater ſlaunderer. When the Prieſts doe pray that Ieſus Chriſte woulde delyuer the ſoules from the déepe lake, is it not eaſie to be vnderſtanded, that they ſpeake not of a lake full of water, but that woorde is taken by tranſlation and compariſon, for to declare and ſhew foorth y^• depth of y^• miſeries in which ſinne leadeth the poore ſinners?

Theophilus.

But hath not Ieſus Chriſt thorow y^• bloud of his teſtament, deliuered all the true Chriſtians from thoſe broken pits that wyll holde The lake without vvater. Zach. 9. c. 11no water, euen as he hath brought the children of Iſraell from the bottome of their captiuitie and miſery, accordinge to the propheſie of Zachary? doſt thou thincke that Zachary hath lyed?

Hillarius.

Thou doeſt call me ſophiſter and ſlaunderer, but if thou finde that that I do ſay ſo ſtraunge, I would gladly knowe of thée out of what floud came the ſoule, which the fiſhermen of the Byſhop Tibaud dyd take in a net in ſteede of a fiſh?

Thomas.

Truely I now perceiue A ſoule taken in a netthat thou doeſt mocke men too plainely.

Hillarius.

If I mocke, thou muſt then impute the fault to that great Doctour Barleta, of the order of the preaching Fryers, who hath written that goodly example, in his Sermon Barleta feri. 4 hebd. 4. quadr. de pe. purg.that he made of the paines of Purgatorye, and ſayde moreouer that the fiſher men dyd bring that net vntounto the Byſhop, vntounto whom the ſoule cryed: Praye for me in thy maſſes, to whom the Byſhop demaunded, what art thou? The Biſhop Tibaud.the ſoule aunſwered: I am a ſoule that hauehave accompliſhed héere my penaunce. And as ſoone as he had cauſed a trentall of Maſſes to be ſong for it, it was deliuered from hir paines. Now what doeſt thou thincke, how was that ſoule brought thether? I can coniecture none otherwiſe but that it did ſwim bpon the top of the water, as the Troutes, Salmons and Eles, & many othe… fiſhes doo, which go againſt the ſwéet water, and do depart from the ſea and lakes, for to enter into the riuers. For I doubt not, but that there is ſtinckinge mudde, myre and durte in thoſe papiſticall lakes, and that the water is verye muche corrupted, ſalt and bytter, The papiſticall lakes and …ondes. The …luds of Paradiſe Eſa. 11. a. 3 Gene…. 2. b. 10wherefore I am not much eſtoniſhed, if that the ſoules hauehave ſuch great deſire to depart out of thoſe ſtincking Ceſterns, for to refreſh themſelues and to drawe of the water, in the ſountaines of our ſauiour Ieſus Chriſt, and in thoſe pleſaunt riuers and flouds of that delicious and pleaſaunt garden, wherein the golden age continueth for euer, and of that goodly Paradyſe, the whiche God hathe planted, The tree of lifeand in the myddeſt of which hée hath ſette the trée of life, for to make vsus pertakers of his immortalitie. And as for mée, whatſoeuer Sophiſter thou call mée, yet I coulde not gyue better ſolucion to my queſtion: nor I knowe not whether in Sorbonne, one myght finde a more fitter. But leaſte thou ſhouldeſt not thincke that I doe ſpeake wythout authoritie, I wyll alledge vntounto thée the wytneſſe Cic…ro. Tuſe. q. li. 1of the Poets, and the ſame of Cicero, who alledgeth that he fauoureth greatly the hiſtory of Barleta, and the expoſition that I hauehave made vppon the ſame. Marke then the A ſoule drawen from hell.horrible and ſharpe verſes, that thoſe ſoules which departed from hell did ſpeake, as ſome man hath tranſlated it into our tongue.

From the infernall lake I came, and griſly goulfe of hell, Where ſoules in fire & brimſtone plungd, in endleſſe tromēts dwell. Thus hauing paſſed Acheron that foule and ſtincking ſloud, And eke eſcaped Gerberus the dog that is ſo woode, VponUpon the ſharpe rockes creepe I muſt, and doe by penaunce ſo, (Till time I hauehave ſulfilde the ſame) in pangs of paine and vvo.

Thou doeſt heare the language that the ſame ſoule did ſpeake, although that Cicero did mocke of thoſe fictions and of ſuch a heape of fooles, who demaunded a forme & ſhape of the ſoules, and did thincke that they did retourne. Upon which he ſaith: From thence by his accompt the lake of Auernus Aueruusis not farre off, from whence ſome do ſaye that the ſoules doe come in a blacke ſhadow, after that the gate of Acheron is opened: and that from thence came foorth the Images and figures of the dead men, with falſe bloude. Notwythſtandinge the ſame they woulde that thoſe Images and viſions ſhoulde ſpeake: the which they cannot doe, without a tongue, mouth and throate, or wythout ſtrength & figure of lyuer & ribs. And although they ſée nothing by apprehenſion of vnderſtāding they would y^• thoſe figures of the dead, ſhould be repreſented before their eies. Although y^• Cicero rebuked y^• opiniō of thoſe, yet neuertheleſſe they do not accord very euil w^t y^• theology of your Doctours. Wherefore thou oughteſt to coutent thy ſelfe with my ſolution: or if thou wilt hauehave a better, propound the queſtion in Sorbonne, and if the Doctors cannot abſolue it, let them condemne the bookes of Barleta, and of other lyke dreamers, The forbidding of bookes.& forbid the Moonkes to reade their Sermons full of blaſphemy, rather then the holy Scriptures, and the bookes that they iudge to be full of hereſies, onelyonly bycauſe that they doo contayne truth, and which condemne their abuſe.

Theophilus.

They will not doe ſo. For the other do cauſe The fluds of paradiſe. Pyſon. Geneſ. 2. b 10the water to come better to their mil. Moſes witneſſeth that Pyſon, the one of the foure flouds of the terreſtryall Paradiſe, bringeth golde with his waues: But thoſe will hauehave nothing to doe with the flouds of Paradiſe, nor of the golde that they bringe, which is a great deale more precious then Fluds bringeth golde.that which they drawe from their internal flouds, y^e which they preferre before thoſe, bicauſe of the greate riches and treaſures that they drawe there out.

Hillarius.

There is no Prince vponupon the earth, whiche getteth or draweth ſo much out of the flouds nor mines, as Tagus. Pactolus. Ganges. Hebrus. Padus & Eridanus Orcus.they hauehave. That is none of the golde which Tagus the floud of Portingale bringeth with his ſandes: Or Pactolus of Lydia: Or Ganges of India: Or Hebrus of Thracia: Or Padus of Italy: Or Orcus, whiche is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont. All the golde that thoſe flouds hauehave is nothing in compariſō of that that they catch in their internall floudes: which cauſe the whéeles of their Mill to turne about very well. In very déede they hauehave an Orcus which is more fertile in golde then that of Piedmont. And y^e name Eurotos & Peneus. 4. ca. 8 Plin. li. 4 ca. 8 P…neus accipii amnem Eurotō nec recipit, ſed olei mod… ſuper natatem breui ſpaicio portatūagréeth with it very well. For Orcus ſignifieth hell, from whence thoſe flouds ariſe, whiche cannot ioyne themſelues with thoſe flouds of the terreſtryall Paradiſe, no more then Eurotos with Peneus, that goodly floude of Theſſaly, which cannot abide nor ſuffer that the execrable waters of that ſtincking floud, engendred wyth paines and torments, ſhould be mingled wyth his ſiluer flouds: But they muſt ſwimme aboue him, as Oyle, and after y^e he hath carryed him a little, he driueth him farre from him.

Theophilus.

Thoſe héere would as well mingle the waters abdicat penales aquas, diriſ que genitas argenteis ſuis miſcere recuſans.of their ſtincking Ceſterns, with the water of life: But it agréeth not together. For Ieſus Chriſte cannot abide nor ſuffer that, but caſteth it farre from him. Wherfore I doubt verye much, that as he hath already kindled his fire, which hath burned Purgatory, that he will alſo repulſe thoſe riuers and lakes, and that he will cauſe them that they ſhall The floude of Chriſtnot ſwell ouer as a flud doth his waters, for to quench and put out that little fire which ſhall be there left.

Hillarius.

they ought a great deale more to feare that flud, then the drowning and ouerflowing of Tiber, whiche The ouerflowing of Tyber.was like to hauehave drowned Rome. For when it runneth ouer, it will carry away both the caſtle of Sainct Ange, the Pope and his Popedome and all the Romiſh Babilon. Wherefore it is no meruaile though they feare thoſe euangelicall The floud Nylus and the fertility of Aegipt Strab. Geor. li. vlti. Solin. ca. 45. Seneca li. 4. natu. quae. Luc. Phar. 10 Plin. in panegy ad Traia. Plin. natu. hiſt li. 5. ca. 9 Nilometres. Diodo. ſicu. li. 1 Tibul. li. 1. ad Nilum. Te propter nul los tellus tua poſtulat imbres Arida nec pluuio ſupplicat herba loui. Claudia. in con ſu. Theo. Lene ſluit. Nilus, ſed cūctis amnsbus extat vtilior.waters, and endeuour themſelues to keepe their filthy internall puddles, and infectious and ſtincking welles. For that is all the force and riches of their kingdome. The flud Nilus which ouerfloweth the land of Aegypt, & which maketh their fields fruitful and fat, and bringeth vntounto them great aboundance and increaſe of wheate and other corne by the mudde, filth, fat ground, dunge and fatneſſe that it bringeth with it, is not ſo fertile nor profitable vntounto y^e Aegyptians, which inhabit in the land of Aegypt, as vntounto vsus new Aegyptians. Wherefore if the Aegyptians take ſuch paine about their flud Nilus, and hauehave their Nilometres, that is to ſay, the meſurers of y^e flud Nilus, which hauehave y^e charge to meaſure it, for to know whether it encreaſe much or little, we muſt not be eſtoniſhed, if thoſe heere doe ſo trauayle after theirs.

Thomas.

Wherefore doe they that?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that if that Nilus do not encreaſe but twelue cubytes, then they hauehave the famine in Aegypt: bycauſe that if all their groundes are not watred and moyſted through the ouerflowinge of the ſame, thoſe whiche are not couered are as the ſande, and wyll brynge foorth no fruite. For it rayneth not in Summer, and all their felicitie and riches, dependeth vponupon Nilus. As Moſes declared Deutat. baevntounto the Iſraelites, comparinge Aegypt vntounto the lande of Canaan. If the floud Nilus ariſe vppe xiif. cubites, yet there ſhall be tamiſhment in Aegypt. If it encreaſe xiiif. cubites, it bringeth ioye: if xv. it bringeth aſſuredneſſe: if it encreaſe xvf. cubites, it bringeth delightes and pleaſures. For they hauehave ſuch ſtore and aboundaunce of corue and other goodes, that all is plentifull. On the contrarye, if it Palaemon ex Diony. Non alius tantum fluutorum ditat arenas. At que trahens limum complec titur vbere cā pos.encreaſe aboue meaſure, they cannot ſowe, bicauſe that the water tarryeth ſo longe that the earth wyll not bée drye to bée tylled: But when it encreaſeth by meaſure, they make greate chéere, takynge care for nothinge, and therefore they hauehave thoſe Nilometres whiche meaſure the hyght and depth of thoſe waters, and if they knowe that it aryſeth not hygh ynoughe, for to water all the earthe, they make it to be knowen through out all the Townes and Cyties, afterwardes eueryevery one maketh dykes and The floud Nilus of the Pope.trenches for to make it the eaſier to runne all abrode. If they knowe to the contrary, that it wyll ſwell and ryſe vp to hye, and that throughe hys greate aboundaunce of hys waters it wyll let and hynder to ſowe and tyll the earth, they make greate rampers and walles rounde aboute it for to kéepe it in, and to cauſe it to runne more ſlowelye. Nowe therefore doubte not, but that our Aegyptians are as wyſe in their generations, and that they knowe as well that practiſe, for to prouide and foreſee to theire Niles and flouddes, whiche cauſe the water to come to theire Milles, from which all their fertilities and ryches do procéede, and wyth which they fiſhe and catche the goulde, of which yet neuertheleſſe they can neuer be ſatiſfied. For Charibdis.they are as a goulfe of the ſea, in which theſe ryuers dooe emptie themſelues, & yet they can neuer fill the ſea. Theſe The dykes of y^e fortreſſes of the Papiſts.are the dikes of their caſtles & Lordſhips wherin doth conſiſt all their fortreſſe, of which none can approch nigh vntounto thē, wythout béeing fore afraide & in great daunger of killing & drowning. For thoſe y^e wyll approch as enemyes, for to aſſalt them, ſhal finde thoſe flouds altogether …ull of ſulfure & fire, & more whotter & burning then y^e internal floud Phlegetō. Thoſe which do paſſe ouer thē, for to yeelde themſelues vntounto thē, ſhal finde thēſelues more miſerable & vnhappy. For firſt of al they muſt paſſe y^e floud Lethe, which ſignifieth To paſſe the floude Lethe. To forget God.obliuion: bicauſe that it is neceſſarye, that thoſe which giuegive themſelues vntounto them for to drinike of the ſtincking water of their doctrin & traditions, forget God & his word, & Eſa 29. d. 13. Mat. 15. a. 8ſerue him in vayn. Wherfore frō thece they muſt come vntounto Acheron, which cauſeth all thoſe that paſſe ouer it to loſe all their ioye and myrth. For ſith that the kingdome of God is A cl. cronrighteouſneſſe, peace, and ioye in the holy Ghoſt, what peace The kingdome of God. Rom. 14 c. 17.& ioye can thoſe hauehave who hauehave forgotten and forſaken God, the fountaine of the water of life, & the ſea of all goodneſſe, for to come & drincke of thoſe muddye and ſtincking Iere. 2. c. 13.welles that wyll holde no water? Sith that then in that Acheron, one ſhal loſe all ioy & mirth, they muſt of neceſſitie come vntounto the other flouddes, to wyt, Stix, which ſignifteth Styx Cocytus Phlegeton Ihon. 14. d. 16 The holy ghoſt is called y^e comforter. Claudiut. Foelix qui phaitas preſcindit vomere terras. Nubila non ſpe rat tenebris cō dentia coelum Nec grauiter ſlantes pluuiali frigore Coros. Inuocat, aut arcum varlota luce rubentem Aegyptus ſiue aube ferax inbreſ que ſerenos. Sola tenet ſo cu ra poli, non indiga venti.ſorrowfulneſſe, & to Cocytus which ſignifieth mourning: and vntounto Phlegeton which ſignifieth heate and burning. For ſith that the holy Ghoſt is called the comforter: ioye nor conſolation cannot bée but there where hée is, and where he hath ſhed abroade the waters and droppes of his grace. And therefore who can hauehave his conſcience which is depriued frō that comforter. but ſorrowfull & ful of perpetual mourning? What greater heat & burning can ther be in hel, then is in the conſciences of thoſe which hauehave abā doned Chriſt, for to ſerue Antechriſt, & for to follow his doctrine & traditions? For that is a very hell vntounto the conſcyence: and it is not poſſible that thoſe which are addicted and giuen vntounto his ſeruice, can euer be refeſhed & filled. For that Aegypt is not watred nor ſprinkled with y^e dewes & flouds of heauen, no more then y^e other Aegypt w^c the water from heauen in ſommer: & hath nothing in it but theſe filthineſſe & puddels, y^e which it doth eſtéeme more then y^e goodly faire & cleere water: it preferreth it ſelfe vntounto the lande of Canaan, the whiche yet neuertheleſſe Moſes eſtéemed more then that of Aegypt: ſayinge vntounto the Iſraelites: The lande whether thou goeſt to poſſeſſe it, is not as the Gaudet aquis quas ipſae vehit Nilo que redundat.lande of Aegypt whence thou cameſt out, where thou ſowedſt thy ſeede: And wateredſt it with thy féete as a garden of hearbes: But the lande whether ye goe ouer to poſſeſſe, it is a lande of hyls and valleys, and drincketh water of the raine of heauen. They had rather wyth great trauaile torment themſelues after and aboute thoſe maryſſes and lowe groundes, then to attend and receyue the bleſſing from heauen. And therefore they can neuer finde reſt nor conſolation in their conſciences, but abide alwayes in doubt, perpleritie, trouble and anguiſh.

Theophilus.

That is the very ſame that they deſire. For Antechriſte hath his fiſhers, altogether differinge and contrary vntounto thoſe of Ieſus Chriſt, who deſire not but troubled waters, bicauſe that then their fiſhing is a great deale Deu. 11. b. 10 To fish in the troubled water The fishers of Ieſus Chriſt & of Antechriſt. Mat. 4. d. 19. Luc. 5. c. 10.better. Ieſus Chriſt ſaid vntounto his Apoſtles, and Diſciples: I will make you fiſhers of men: Bicauſe that hée woulde ſende them, for to drawe men, by the nets and cordes of the preaching of the Goſpel, out and from the ſea of this world, and from the goulfes of ſinne, death and hell, for to leade them vntounto the port of health & ſafetie, and vntounto Ieſus Chriſt their Sauiour. The other fiſher men take fiſhes for to kill and eat them. But theſe are ſent for to retire & pluck back men from death vntounto life, and from the perils and daūgers of the ſea and goulfes of hell, for to lead, preſent and bring them all aliue vntounto Ieſus Chriſt. On the contrarye, Antechriſt Fishers of gold and ſiluer. Sub anulo piſca torto.hath his Apoſtles and fiſhers, not of men, but of golde and of ſiluer: or if they do catch men, that is after the manner and ſorte as the fiſhers catch the fiſhes for to kill, eate & ſell them.

Hillarius.

If they be not fiſhers of men, they are fiſhers of ſoules. Wherfore I would coūſaile them, ſith Fishers of ſoules.that they know to take them in their nets as fiſhes, that in ſléede of their maſſes, vigilles and ſuffrages, they woulde buy fiſhe lepes, nettes and hookes for to catche and fiſh for ſoules.

Theophilus.

They hauehave no néede of thy counſaile. For they hauehave bene prouided of ſuch inſtrumentes longe agone, that if it be poſſible there ſhal not one ſoule eſcape, but that it ſhalbe intrapped and caught in their nettes, which they hauehave layd forth on eueryevery ſide. What other thing are all The nets of the Prieſtes.their prayers for the dead, their Idoles and ceremonies, but bytings, Hookes, Nettes and engyns, for to catche and take men, as the Fiſſhers take the Fiſſhes? or the Spiders the little Flyes with their copwebbes?

Hillarius.

Therfore it is very neceſſarie for them to hauehave a great many of Nilomitres & ſeruants, for to take good héede to their riuers, ſith y^e there are ſo many Fiſhers, & whiche hauehave ſo many nets & engyns. For it is to be feared greatly, y^e if their Nile and their bloudy waters of Aegypt ſhould ouerflowe, ariſe The vvaters of Aegypt.and ſwell to much, that it woulde quenche and put out the fire, that they kéepe yet in their Purgatory, aſwell as the ouer great fire that they made there, hath burned the walles and chambers that were there, and leaſt the ſame ſhould hinder and let their ſowings and reapings in harueſt. On the contrary, if thoſe fluddes decreaſe and dry vp, it is greatly to be feared, but that they will bringe dearth and famine, for many cauſes and reaſons. For merchants nor merchandiſe cannot come no more vntounto them. Afterwardes it is to be feared, leaſt the Iſraelites whome they To go out of Aegypt Exo. 14. c. 21 The taking of Babilon. Cirus & Dariushold in captiuitie in Aegypt, ſhall eſcape them, if God dryeth vp the red Sea, for to giuegive iſſue and paſſage vntounto his people: or leaſt their Babilon ſhould be taken, as Cirus and Darius tooke y^e of the Chaldeans, after that they had founde the meanes to turne the riuer Euphrates, which entred into Euphrates. Pli. li. 3 ca. 14. Solin. ca. 50. Xenoph. in Cir. hiſt. li. 1. in chothe ſame, for to giuegive free paſſage vntounto their ſouldiers & hoſte of men: the which they placed within Babilon, there where the courſe of the water was, and did take it in the night, whileſt that the king Balthazer with his Princes, curtiſans and concubines did banquet & make good chere, Daniel. 5. ſ. 23and celebrated the feaſt of his gods.

Theophilus.

They may well repayre theyr dykes, and Ioſeph. lib. 10 ca. 13forteāe themſelues aſmuch as they can: But yet neuertheleſſe they ſhall take them neuer the ſooner. For it is neceſſary y^t the prophecie which Eſay prophecyed againſt the Aegyptians be accomplyſhed vppon them, and vppon all The Prophecie againſt the Aegyptians.their Fiſhers, and vppon thoſe which lyue about their riuers, and which make y^e inſtruments of Idolatry & ſuperſticion.

Hillarius.

What is that Prophecie?

Theophilus.

GiueGive eare, and you ſhall ſee whether it agréeth not well to our matter. The water of the Sea (ſayth hée) ſhall bée drawne out, Nilus ſhall ſinke away, and be dronken vp.

The riuers alſo ſhall be drawen out, and the wells ſhal decreace Eſa. 19 2. 5.and dry away. Réede and Ruſh ſhall fayle, the graſſe by the waters ſide or vppon the riuers banke, yea, The fiſshers for ſaken.and whatſoeuer is ſowen by the waters, ſhall be wythered, deſtroyed and brought to nought. The fiſſhers ſhall mourne, all ſuch as caſt angels in the water ſhall complayn and they that ſpred their nettes in the water ſhalbe faynt hearted. Such as labour vponupon Flare and Silke, ſhal come to pouertie, and they alſo that weaue fine workes. And all thoſe which doe make pondes and ſtewes for the lyuing ſoules ſhall be ſorrowfull for their nettes.

Hillarius.

It is not poſſible, to finde out a prophecie which better agreeth with them. For this heere maketh mention of waters, of Fiſſhers of Flare workers, of makers of nettes, of makers of pondes and ſtewes, in which they doe keepe and holde faſt the lyuing ſoules, as the fiſſhers doe keepe their fiſhes in their ſtewes and fiſh pents. It maketh alſo mention of their inſtruments & of the workemen that make them, y^e they feare nothing leſſe leaſt that the preaching of the Goſpell ſhould drye vp thoſe riuers, as Demetrius & thoſe of his ſect greatly feared, y^e thorow Demetrius. Act. 19 ſ. 14 Diana the goddeſſe of the Epheſians.the preaching of Paul, the honour of Diana the great goddeſſe of the Epheſians ſhould be diminiſhed, & their gayne with hir. Therefore they are not to be blamed although they loke to it ſo diligently. It in more then time that the vertue of God doth ſhew foorth it ſelf, for to deliuer his poore people, from the handes of ſo many fiſhers which plunge & drown ſo many poore ſoules through their lakes & puddles. Thoſe are terimen & marrincrs which do drowne all thoſe Daungerous Mart…erswhich enter into their boates & ſhips. For they hauehave not Ieſus Chriſte with them, which cauſeth the windes & tempeſts Mat. 8. c. 2 … Mar. 14. d. 32 Iohn. 3. b. 19to be calme & to ceaſe, & which cauſeth alwaies a ſafe landing and port.

Theophilus.

And therefore it ſhoulde be more reaſonable that we ſhould cry after him as y^e Apoſtles Prayer for the lyuing.did, ſaying: Lord ſaue vsus: & that we ſhould make our prayer vntounto God, that he would deliuer vsus from that déepe take, & al thoſe that be aliue, then to ſing for the dead. For if Dauid & the other ſeruauntes of God did complaine themſelues to hauehave bene drowned in the lakes of tribulation and myſery, The vvater of tribulation. Pſa 2…. c. 21 Pſa…. 6. e. 23 Eſa. 8. h 8 Sennacharib.& that the waters hauehave enuironed & couered them ouer the head, wée hauehave no leſſe occaſſon to complayne. Eſay deſiring to ſignifie the miſery & tribulation which ſhould come vntounto Hieruſalem and to all the lande of Iuda by the army of Sennacherib, ſayth that ſhe ſhall be enuironed wyth waters vp to the throate: And vſeth ſuch compariſon for to let them to vnderſtand that the ſame army ſhal deſtroy and couer all the land, euen as Euphrates did couer and deſtroy Euphrates. Strab. li. 16 Proc. li. 1. Perſ. bel. Eſa. 36. cap. 4. Reg. 18. and 19. cap.that lande of Aſſyria, when it ouerflowed: making compariſon by the ſouldiers & hoſt vntounto y^e riuer, bicauſe that both the one and the other doe paſſe through one lande. But Hieruſalem was neuer ſo afflicted nor oppreſſed by the vyolent waues of the armye of the Aſſyrians, as the poore Church is troden downe and oppreſſed by that great Romiſh Sennacherib and his army, whiche is innumerable The Romish Sennacherib.throughout all the whole worlde, as the ſande of the ſea. But we hauehave ſpoken inough of the Lake: It reſteth now to abſolue the doubte which I hauehave alreadye begun. Foraſmuch (friende Euſebius) as you ſay, that that hell and déepe lake, of which mencion is made of it in y^e affertory for the dead, is taken for purgatory, what doth y^• ſignifie which is ſpoken off afterwards: Deliuer thē from y^e lyons mouth, leaſt that hell do not deuour them: I beleeue y^e they vnderſtand by y^e Lyon none other but the Dyuel, who as S. Peter The deuouring Lyon. 1. Pet. 5. b. ewitneſſeth is our enemy, & walketh about ſéeking whom he may deuour. But ſith y^e the ſoule is ſeparated from y^e body, how can it be deliuered frō y^e mouth of y^• roring & denouring lyon, if y^e ſoule be of a reprobate, which dieth out of y^• ſaith of Chriſt, who ſhal deliuer it from his throte, when God hath giuen it him? And if it be of a faithfull man, Ieſus Chriſte who is the ſtrong and inuincible Lion, of the tribe of Iuda The Lyon of y^e tribe of Iuda, Apoc. 5. b. 5who hath had the victory ouer that Lion which is aduerſary and enemy vntounto God, hath he not already deliuered it? hath not he killed and prohibited the mouth of that Sampſon and Dauid. Iudg. 14. a. 5. 1. Sam. 17 c. 35hungry Lion, as a true Sampſon and Dauid, in ſuch ſorte that he hath no more teeth nor fanges, for to deuoure the childen of God whom the Lord Ieſus holdeth, as the Lyon his pray, to whome none dareth to come nigh, as Eſay Eſa. 31. b. 4hath written, that the Lord kéepeth Hieruſalem and his elect people. Alſo I thinke it not much vnméete if we make ſuch prayer for thoſe that be a liue, the which Ieſus Chriſt hath taught vsus to pray and ſay: And lead vsus not into temptation, Mat. 6. b. 13 Luc. 11. a. 2but deliuer vsus from euill. And hee him ſelfe hath made the prayer vntounto God his Father, for his diſcyples, as Iohn. 17 b. 9witneſſeth Sainct Iohn. He ſaith not, I pray thee that thou wouldeſt deliuer them from euill after this life: nor ſaith, I pray not, that thou wouldeſt take them out of y^e world? 1. Pet. 5. b. 8but that thou wouldeſt kéepe them from all euill. Alſo S. Peter doeth not exhort vsus to abſtaine from meates, to bée ſober, watche and pray, and to arme vsus with faith againſte that roaring Lion, for thoſe that be dead, but for our ſelues Repugnaunce of doctrinewhileſt that we be a liue, to the ende we may auoyd his mouth, for to come vntounto that holy light which he hath promiſed vntounto Abraham and vntounto his ſeede. For according to your doctrine, ſith that the ſoule is ſeperated from the body, if man hath not had here remiſſion of his ſinnes before his death, he cannot hauehave it after. And if he hauehave it in this life, he goeth either into Paradiſe or into Purgatory. If he be in Paradiſe, it is no more to bee feared that hell can ſwallow him vp. If he bée in Purgatory, although that according to your opinion, he be in paynes, yet neuertheleſſe you confeſſe that he is paſt the danger of damnation, and that he is ſure of his ſaluation. Wherefore I vnderſtand not, howe that prayer can agrée with the worde of God, and the doctrine of the auncient doctors, & your owne For you ſpeake againſt your ſelfe. If that prayer doth profit The Papiſticall doctrine is vncertaine.the ſoules of the dead in the other life, it muſt then bée, that ther is yet great hope, either to merit or not to merit, and a place to do good or euill, as in this mortal life, and to be damned or ſaued.

Euſebius.

There is great difference. For in this life man may merit or not merit of him ſelfe: But after he is dead he can do no more for him ſelfe, but others may do it for him? And the merites of thoſe that bee alyue doe ſerue him to ſaluation.

Theophilus.

And ſo by that meanes, Ieſus Chriſte ſhalbe a Sauiour neither of the lyuing nor of the dead: & the merite of his death and paſſion, ſhall ſaue neither the one nor the other, but the lyuing ſhall ſaue themſelues, during their life? and after their death, others that ſhalbe thē alyue, ſhal ſaue them eſpecially the Prieſtes and Moonks, By that meanes, we hauehave many ſauiours, and men ſhould neuer be certaine nor ſure of their ſaluation, neither before their death nor afterwards, whiche is a thing altogether contrarie to the doctrine of the ſcriptures.

Euſebius.

And if I would maintaine, that thoſe which are in hell, can be ſomewhat deliuered from the pains theroff, eyther by the prayers and good déedes of the liuing, or Deleyueraunce from hellbicauſe of the good deedes that they themſelues hauehave done during their life, that ſhould be a ſtrange thing vntounto thée. What wouldeſt thou aunſwere to that? HaueHave wee not the witnes of a great many hiſtories and good doctours, worthy to be beleeued, which certefie vsus, how that Sainct Gregory deliuered Traianus the Emperour from the paines Traianus delyuered from hellof hell, who notwithſtanding did put to death many of the Chriſtians, and namely Sainct Ignacius the diſcyple of S. Iohn Saint Ignatius lo. Maio. 4. ſent diſt. 45. quae. Saint Machayr Saint Brandun. Alruſ. in fine ſui 4. Iudas out of hell.the Euangeliſt. It is in like manner written in the life of the fathers, that Sainct Machaire deliuered a prieſt being a Panim, who affirmed vntounto him that he was damned. And in the life of ſainct Brandon we read that hee did ſée Iudas, which walked by the meadowes, of whom he aſked the cauſe, wherefore he was not in hell: who aunſwered him bicauſe of the good deedes that he did in his life time, he had therefore ſome ſolace and comfort.

Theophilus

If Thou canſt no better confirme my ſentence, nor better proue that your doctrine is altogether vncerteine, variable, inconſtant and gameſayinge it ſelfe. For haſt thou not alreadie confeſſed vntounto me, that the prieſtes do not praye for the dampned, bicauſe that there is no deliuerance from hell, and from the fire of hell? Conſider I pray thée, how that agreeth with thoſe goodly fables, & with that which thou meaneſt now to ſpeake off.Diuers opiniōs of the deliuerance of Traianus Tho. in 4. diſt. 1. 3. Argu. 2 10. Maio. 4. ſent diſt. 45. qua. 1. Barl. ſer. 3. Hab. 4. ſermo de pen. inſer.

Euſebius.

If you had read diligently the bookes of the good auncient doctors, and eſpecially of Saint Thomas, you might eaſely make all theſe places agrée. For they do alledge foure opinions & reaſons for to ſatiſfie ſuche doubts. The firſt is, that Traianus was rayſed thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory, and that he dath done penance in this life, thorowe the which he meryted grace and pardon of his ſinnes. Wherefore he is dead in the grace of God, and hath bene ſaued, and this is the beſt allowed opinion of y^e doctors. The ſecond is, that the ſoule of Traianus was not ſimplye deliuered from the paine and fault thereof, but that his paine was ſuſpended and delayed, vntill the daye of iudgement, and afterwardes ſhalbe ſaued. The thyrd opinion is that Gregory deliuered him, not from the place of hell, but from the paine. The fourth, which is alſo beſt allowed among all the other, that the ſoule of Traianus was deliuered from the paines of hell, and hath obtayned merciemercy thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory: the which thing was done, not after the common law, but after the diſpoſition and diſpenſation of the wiſdome and prouidence of God, who did foreſee that Sainct Gregory ſhould pray for him. Wherefore it hath not dampned it by or through diffinitiue ſentence, but by a ſentence ſuſpenciue: The which thing hath bene a perticuler priuiledge. For Sainct Hierome ſaith, that the priuiledges are but for a Priuiledges.fewe people, and not for all. For the priuiledges of a fewe are not lawes common to all: And the things which go out of ſquare from the common lawe, ought not to bee drawen into a conſequence.

Hillarius.

I thinke that that is the priuiledge whiche Extra derog. ſur. li. 6is written in the Aeneados of Virgill, the which Cyble recited, ſpeaking to Aeneas after this manner.

Then prophet Cyble ſaid, O borne of bloud of heauenly kind,

Thou Troyan Duke, the way that leads to hell is light to finde.Virg. Aenci. 6.

Both nights and dayes, the doore of Limbo blacke doth open gape,

But backward vp to climbe, and free to Skies eſt ſoones to ſcape.

Their woorkes, their labour is few men whom equall louelove did louelove,

Our vertue pearcing all, did to the ſtarres aduaunce aboue.

Beholde the priuiledge of that good doctor, whiche peraduenture Iupiter, in whom Traianus did beléeue, granted vntounto him.

Theophilus.

I do greatly meruayle, both of Thomas of Aquin, and of other queſtionarie doctors, whiche hauehave taken ſuche great paines for to couler and ſet foorth a fable. It muſt be that they hauehave had very much leaſure, and that they were not muche occupied about other better affaires. They would ſooner hauehave giuen a more true and certeine ſolution, if they had by and by anſwered, that they receiued not ſuch fables: as ſome of their owne ſecte hauehave done, namely our maiſter Iohn Maioris the Scotte, the whiche I hauehave heretofore heard reade in the Colledge of Our maſter Iohn Maioris 4. ſent. diſt. 45 q. 1.Mountaigu. Hee reiecteth without making anye doubt, both the hiſtory of Sainct Machaire, and alſo that of S. Brandon. As touching that ſame of Traians, although that he alledge the common ſolutions of other doctors: yet neuertheleſſe he firſt doth aunſwer, that he knoweth not from whence that hiſtory had his firſt beginning: the which hath no certaine author: not withſtanding that ſome doe attribute it vntounto Iohn Damaſcenus. But how ſhoulde hee hauehave The Author of the hiſtory of Traianus Damaſcenus. Supple. chro. Bergons. li. 9.written it, ſith that according to their owne witneſſes and chronicles, he raigned long time before that ſaint Gregory lyued, and was dead before that Sainct Gregory was borne. For their chronicles do witnes, that Damaſcenus floriſhed in the years of our Lord 440. And that he was very familier with the Emperour Theodoſius. The which yet neuertheleſſe I beléeue not: For by that account, he had lyued in the time of Sainct Ambroſe, & neuertheleſſe there is great differēce betweene his bookes and theſe of Sainct Ambroſe. For theſe of Sainct Ambroſe are a great deale …latin in vit. Celeſt 1 The time of Gregory. Bergo. li. 10purer, & keepe a great deale better the puritie of y^t aunciēt church. But peraduenture they meane the young Theodoſeus, which rayned after Honorius. Although that it be ſo, by their owne Chronicles, he was before the time of Gregory, about 152. yeares. For they do write that Gregory reigned in the yeare. 592.

Hillarius.

It muſt néeds be then, that either the Chronicles are falſe, or y^e witnes of thoſe y^e do make Damaſcenus the author of that fable: Except peraduenture they will ſay that thorow the ſpirite of prophecie, he hath foreſhewed that deliuerance, which Gregory ought to doe, touching the ſoule of Traianus.

Theophilus.

I knowe not what their prophecies are, but I neuer in all my lyfe did ſée nor heare a thing wherin was leſſe reaſon, aſſurance & incerteinly, then in that papiſticall doctrine. For it conſiſteth but in mane opinions. But how do thoſe fables agrée with that that they themſelues Maio. 4. ſent. diſt. 45. q. 1. Berl. ſermo. de pen. inſealledge of Sainct Auguſtine, who by their owne witneſſes ſhould ſay: If I did know that my Father were in hell, I would pray no more for him then for the diuell. Wherefore then hauehave S. Gregory and S. Machair prayed for the dampned? And when the Prieſtes do pray vntounto Ne abſorbeat. eas Tartarus: ne cadant in obſura.Ieſus Chriſt that he deliuer the ſoules, leaſt that hel ſhould deuoure them and that they ſhould not fall into the darke and obſcure places, in what place doe they vnderſtande that the ſoules, for whom they make that requeſt, ought The place of y^e Papiſticall ſoules. The fall of the ſoules.to bee? Sith that they make requeſt that hell do not deuour them, they do then vnderſtand and meane, that they are not in hell. But when they admoreouer, that they fall not into the darke and tenebrous places, they declare therby, that they ought to be in a place, from which they may not fall. Now, what is that place? Is it Paradiſe?

Euſebius.

No Paradiſe.verely. For thoſe that are there, are alreadye all aſſured, that they ſhall neuer fall.

Theophilus.

No, except you are of that opinion that the ſoules may yet ſinne in Paradiſe, as the Angelles and Adam, in the terreſtriall Paradiſe, The fall of Angels & of man. Geneſ. 3. d. 24. 2. Pet. 2. a. 4.and that God did throwe them headlonge into hell, as the wicked Angelles: or that he dyd driue them out of Paradiſe, as Adam. But I beléeue thou art not of that opinion, friende Euſebius, for thou ſhouldeſt ſpeake againſt all the good auncient Doctours, and the doctrine of the catholike Church, who doe preferre the worke of mannes redemption, to the ſame of his creation, in that that man hath bene ſo created of God, that he could ſinne: But he hath after ſuch ſort redéemed it, that his elect can neuer periſh nor ſinne after they be in Paradiſe.

Euſebius.

It is very true.

Theophilus.

In what place then are thoſe ſoules? Thou wylt not ſaye that they are The Limbe.in the Limbe? For according to your owne doctrine that ſame of the fathers is emptie, and as touching the other there goeth none thether but the little children that bée borne dead, for whom you doe no more praye, then for the dampned? For you hope no more that they can come out from thence, … more thē tho dampned can come from hel. Wherefore there reſteth no more but Purgatory. Nowe Purgatoryif thoſe ſoules are in Purgatorye, it muſte bée that they hauehave ſome ſolace, and ſome lyght, as in Paradiſe: or otherwiſe, wherefore doe they praye, that thoſe ſoules doe not fall into the obſcure and darke places, if they be there already? We will yet come againe vntounto my firſt matter: and thou ſhalt be compelled to confeſſe that Paradiſe and Purgatory is all one thing: Or that you doe praye for the Saints and Saintes of Paradiſe, and for thoſe which are at reſt: or at the leaſtwiſe, that the ſoules which are already tormented in Purgatory, maye yet fall more déeper into hell & y^• darke places. And ſo by that reaſon, they are yet in daunger of dampnation, which is contrarye to your own doctrine.

Hillarius.

I am greatly eſtoniſhed, friēd Theophilus, what reaſon you can finde out of all reaſon: and what certeintie you ſearch, beſides the woord of God, which is onelyonly certayne? What foundation ſhall you finde in dreames? For all that that they ſaye and do touching the dead, and all their doctrine, what other thing is it but dreames and lyinges? which hauehave neither ſpiryte nor iudgement. Is not that a Theology altogether come of the Panims? for of all thoſe thinges hauehave they learned any one ſillable of Ieſus Chriſt? Wherfore, I would, ſith that they will not followe but their owne fantaſie, the opinions of men, and of the Idolaters, and that they hauehave no regarde of the holy Scriptures, that they would not at the leaſtwiſe onelyonly followe the euyll, but alſo the Three kinds of righteouſneſſe after Plato.good, that they hauehave taught. Plato that great and worthy Philoſopher, hath ſet foorth thrée kindes of righteouſneſſe: The one towardes God: an other towardes men, and the thirde towards the dead. But theſe heere doo neither regard God nor men y^e be aliue, but hauehave conuerted all their care vponupon the dead: not for the louelove of them, but for the louelove of themſelues. Wherefore you muſte not thincke, that they hauehave done this, for any zeale of righteouſneſſe for to render vntounto them their duetie.

Theophilus.

I deſire gladlye, that they and all the Chriſtians, woulde acquite them in ſuche ſorte that one may ſay that whiche the Scripture witneſſeth of Ruth Ruth and Booz Ruth. 2. d. 20and of Booz, and to gyue vntounto them ſuch prayſe. For it wytneſſeth, that they hauehave ſhewed mercy on the dead.Works of mercy towardes the dead.

But how? was it in beſtowing their goodes to bury them pompeouſly and making a greate many of Ceremonyes about their buryall? They hauehave not learned to doe ſo by Auguſt. de ciui dei li. 1. ca. 12. 13. que. 2. c ani ma. 4. ſent. diſt. 45 c. de pompit. The profite of the buriall.the worde of God. For as Sainct Auguſtine ſayth, alſo it is written in the decrées themſelues, and in the Maiſter of the ſentences. That all theſe things, to wit, the trauaile and labour that they beſtowe vponupon the funerals, the beautifying of their buryall, the pompe of the exequics and buryals, are more to comfort thoſe that be aliue, then for to ayde the dead. If the precious and coſtly buryall profiteth Virgil. Facilis iactura ſepulera.any thing the wicked, the vile and contemptible buryall ſhall hurt the good, or if he doe remayne vnburyed. That rich man of whom Ieſus Chriſt ſpeaketh off, had Compariſon of the rich and of Lazarus. Luc. 16. c. 19a great number of ſeruants, and courtiſans clothed in purple, and ſumptuous apparaile, who made for him moſte excellent funerals, and buryed hym very coſtly to al mens ſight: But the Miniſtering of the Angells made a greate Luca. li. 9. phraſ. aternus animā colligit in orbes. Non illue auro poſiti nec thure ſepults perueniunt.deale more noble before the face of the Lorde that of the poore begger, whome they carried not to bée buryed: But carryed it into Abrahams boſome. Beholde the wordes of S. Auguſtine, who declareth vntounto vsus that we muſt not diſpiſe the dead bodyes, and denie vntounto them their buryall, for to teſtifie and witneſſe the hope that wée hauehave of the reſurrection, and that we ſhould eſtéeme them no leſſe then a ring or a badge which they hauehave left vntounto vsus, the which we would gladly hide and kepe for the louelove of them. Alſo we ought not to thincke, that the faythfull can be in nothing of leſſe ſtrength, and to receiue any hurte before God, when they abide vnburyed, as it oftentimes chauuſed, as it is written: The dead bodyes of thy ſeruaunts Pſa. 79. a. 2 Luca. li. 6 pharſ. Nihil agis hac tra, tales ne cadauera ſaluat. An rogus haud reſert. Placido natura receptat. Cuncta ſuni & poſt capit omnia tellus. … Quae genuit coelo igitur qui non habet vināhauehave they giuen vntounto y^e ſoules of the Aire to be deuoured: and the fleſh of thy Saincts vntounto the beaſtes of the land. Their bloude hauehave they ſhed lyke water on euerye ſide of Hieruſalem, and there was no man to bury them. But yet neuertheleſſe although that thoſe things ſéeme to be hard & cruell yet notwithſtandinge before the face of the Lorde, the death of his Saincts are precious The Panims themſelues that hauehave had any vnderſtanding were not muche carefull of the buryall: although that many ſuperſtitious Idolaters hauehave thought that it bringeth greate hurt, vntounto thoſe that hauehave not bene buryed. Now euen as the coſt which is done about the dead bodyes for their buryalles profiteth leſſe vntounto them, then to anye other: As muche may we thinke & iudge of all the ſuffrages and coſt that is done for them after their death and buriall, as Saincte Auguſtine doth playnelye declare, vppon thys place of the Plalmes. They call their landes after theyr owne Auguſt in pſal 94. cone. 1. The benquettee for the dead.names. What is that? They bringe (ſaith hée,) breads and wine vntounto the graues and call it there the name of the dead. How much or how often doſt thou thincke, that the name of that rich man hath bene called vppon afterwardes, when men were dronken in remembringe him, and one droppe of colde water dyd not diſcende to quench his hot tongue? Men doe ſerue their bellye, and not the ſoules of their parentes and friendes. There commeth nothing vntounto the ſoules of their deade, but that whiche they hauehave done wyth them being alyue. But if béeinge To do good during our lyfe.alyue, they hauehave done nothing wyth them, there commeth nothing vntounto the dead. What reproch had the men which vnderſtoode not what they ſhould doe wyth their ryches, when they lyued, and which dyd thincke that they ſhould bée bleſſed, if they had a memoriall in a Tombe of marble ſtone, as an eternall houſe: or if their parents & friends, vntounto whom they ſhall leaue their goods, do call their lands after their names: But on the contrary, they ought to prepare for themſelues an euerlaſting houſe, in good workes. They ought to prepare for themſelues the immortall life, Preparation for the departure out of this lyfe.to ſend y^e coſt & charges before them, to follow their works to hauehave good regard of their néedy cōpaignion, to giuegive vntounto him with whom they do walke, not to diſpiſe Ieſus Chriſt, to wit, his poore members, lying ful of botches & ſores before the gate, who hath ſayd: Inaſmuch as you hauehave done Mat. 25. d. 40.it vntounto one of the leaſt of theſe my brethren, ye hauehave done it to me. Doth not héere Sainct Auguſtine cléerely ſay, that man muſt do his good déeds & almoſe, not vntounto y^e ſat Moonks & Prieſts, but to the poore members of Ieſus, whileſt y^e hée is héere in the way? For after y^e he ſhalbe out of this world, the good déds & almoſe y^e their parents & friends do beſtow of their riches, profiteth them nothing at all. Wherto alſo Hierome in Eſa of Forgiueneſſe in this vvorldagreeth y^e which S. Hierome ſpeaketh off, ſaying: he which ſhal not obtein pardō of his ſins, whileſt y^e he liueth in this body, & ſhal ſo depart this life, he periſheth to god & leaueth to be: Although y^e be do make himſelf ſubject to paines. By thoſe dronken bankets of whch Sainct Auguſtine ſpeaketh off, wée may ſufficiently vnderſtand what was the cuſtome of the Panims, which for an affection that they dyd beare vntounto their parents & friends, & for a deſire that they had, and alſo for a pompe and glorye, hauehave dedicated ſome Daies dedicated to the dead. Neeyſia. Lunata. Euagiſmata. Ceteriſmata. Terchiſmata. Triacas. Parentationes. Nouendialia Demealia. Ratio diui off. de off. pro mort Rub. 7.of them, the thirde, the ſeauenth, ninth or tenth day, others the thirtie or fortie daye, for to make remembraunce for the dead, and to offer for them and make feaſtes and bankets. And hauehave not ordained thoſe dayes wythout putting ſuperſtition to the number of them. And yet neuertheleſſe, wee doe ſée that the Chriſtians altogether and wholly hauehave followed that manner of dooinge, as it appeareth bothe by their practiſe, and alſo by the booke of Durand: Although that Sainct Ambroſe & others after him hauehave made Sermons & decrées, againſt that cuſtome, the which notwithſtandinge coulde not be ſo cleane taken away and aboliſhed, but that that ſuperſtitō continueth almoſt eueryevery where. For men do The ſeuenth dayes and the yere mindes.celebrate the ſeauenth day, tenth day, anwerſaries or yeare mindes wyth great bankets and pleaſures, as it appeareth by the canons and decrées, in which it is written after this ſorte. No Prieſte ſhall in any wiſe preſume to be droncken Diſt. 44. ex cō cilio Nauentē ſi. Nullus. A leſſon for the Prieſts. Quaffing for bidden.when hée commeth to the yeare minde, or to the trentenarie, or to the ſeauenth daye, or ternary of any office for the dead, or to anye contraire or brotherhoode: And that hée drincke nor quaffe when hée ſhall hée deſyred for the louelove and in the name of the Sainctes, or for the louelove of the ſoule of him that is deade, nor that hée doo not alſo compell others to drinike: and that he doo not play the Gluttony.glutton and fyll himſelfe to muche wyth good chéere at the requeſt of an other: And that hée preſume not to rehearſe and recyte ieſtes and vnlawfull ſcoffinges, playes and vaine fables: nor by anye meanes to ſinge: And Maskes and Morriſhes.that he ſuffer not that one ſhoulde make before hym vyle games and toyes, and that hée conſente not that one ſhoulde bringe before hym falſe viſages and maſkes of Dyuelles. For that is dyabolicall, and forbiden of the holy Canons. We maye well vnderſtand by that decrée of the counſayle, what honeſtie the Prieſtes and Chriſtians hauehave kept in ſuch bankets, ſith that they muſt make lawes by the counſailes, and wherein they differed from the Panims. Wherefore if the good auncient fathers hauehave made anye memory of the deade, it was after that ſorte and manner, as wée hauehave already ſpoken off, and for to abolyſh by that meanes the ſuperſtitious faſhions of the Panims, and to chaunge them to better manners, ſith that they cannot pluck them away altogether. For if ſuch religion was pleaſinge vntounto God, it was meruayle, that God dyd not as well ordayne, God hath not inſtituted feaſts nor ſacrafices for the dead.certeyne feaſtes, ſacrifices and ceremonies, for the dead, as he hath done in all other thinges, and many, which ſéeme not to be ſo neceſſary, as thoſe héere doe eſtéeme the offering for the dead, whom they doe grieue more, then any commaundement that God hath euer gyuen. If that were cōpriſed in the louelove that we owe vntounto our neighbour, how could the ſpirite of God holde his peace, Ieſus Chriſt and ſaint Paul his Apoſtle, who hauehave ſo much ſtroue againſt it, and commaunded louelove towardes our neighbour, and hauehave not once ſpoken any word to make prayers, almoſte nor ſacrifices for the dead? If that ſame had bene neceſſary, and according to the will of God, why would they hauehave more hidden it from vsus then any other thinge? howe can that which Ieſus Chriſt and alſo his Apoſtles hauehave ſayde be true, that they hauehave declared and manifeſted vntounto vsus all the wyll of God? Doe we not then vntounto them greate iniury, to make that a commaundement of louelove and charitie of whiche they hauehave neuer ſpoken off? But I am not abaſhed ſithe that almoſt in all other thinges the Prieſtes dooe followe the Panims, and the Iewes the Moſoycall Ceremonyes, abolyſhed by Ieſus Chriſte, howe they hauehave not followed them in this matter, and that they doe not abſteyne to come néere the deade, and to aſſiſt them at their buryalles, as the auncient Prieſtes of the lawe, vntounto whome GOD hath forbidden it. For if they woulde bée Iewes, and followe them in older thinaes, they oughte alſo to followe them in thys, or to yéelde a reaſon, wherefore they followe them in one thing, and not in an other.VVherein the Prieſts doe folovv y^• Ievves & Panims

Hillarius.

they had rather to followe the Gentyles and Panims in this behalfe: For their Ceremonies and ſuperſtytions doo bringe vntounto them more profite, the which they followe, notwithſtandinge they are nothing worthe, as I hauehave alreadye ſayde. Wherefore I thincke that they would hauehave made to others, a lawe gathered out of all that whiche was euyll and wycked.

Theophilus.

It is then eaſelye to bée vnderſtanded by all thoſe thinges that the prayſe that Neomi dyd Ruth. 1. b. 8 Ruth. 2. d. 20gyue vntounto Ruth, ſayinge: The Lorde deale as kindlye wyth you, as ye hauehave dealte wyth the dead: And vntounto Booz in lyke manner, prayſinge hym for that hée hath kepte for the deade that ſame grace and lyberalytie, as he did vntounto the liuinge, regarding not the Maſſes, prayers, ſonges and ſacrifices whiche they hauehave done for them: But the louelove and charitie that they hauehave ſhewed towardes the parents and friendes of the dead that be liuing. Wherefore the holy Scripture declareth what mercy we ought to hauehave of the dead, and what good déedes God requyreth of vsus for them. The prayers, offerings and good deedes, that What good deedes God requireth for the dead.Ruth, that good wydowe, did make for hir huſbande that was dead: was, that ſhe kept company, faith and loyaltie wyth Noemi hir Mother in lawe, hir huſbandes mother. A poore widowe both of huſbande and children as ſhée hirſelfe Ruth & Noemiwas, ſhe comforted hir in hir afflictions and aduerſities: And nouriſhed, cheriſhed & loued hir, & was attendaunt vponupon hir in hir olde age, as though ſhe had bene hir owne The good deedes done vntounto the dead by Booz.mother. In like manner the grace and louelove that Booz hath alſo kept & done vntounto the ſonnes of Noemi as well to thoſe that were dead as to thoſe y^e be liuing, that is, that euen as during their life, he hath exerciſed louelove and charitie towards them in cheriſing and comfortinge them, the lyke affection hath he kept towardes them after they were deade. And when he coulde no more ayde and ſuccour them, and that they had no more neede of him, hée hath declared his louelove that he dyd beare vntounto them, towardes the wydowes, mothers and wiues, of whome he hath had pittie and compaſſion, & hath hulpen them both in body & goods, procuring wyth all his power the honour and profite both of the one Ruth. 4. c. 10& of the other, vntill he did take to wyſe that poore widowe Ruth the Moabite, which was y^• graundmother of Dauid, Mat. 1. 3. 3and hir remembraunce is celebrated with the ſame of Booz hir huſbande, in the gonealogy of Ieſus Chriſte. Wherefore we may knowe, howe much the woorke bothe of the one & of the other hath pleaſed God, & what remembraunce we ought to hauehave of the dead.

Thomas.

I doe finde that to bée the beſt waye, to beſtowe and giuegive the almoſe vntounto the poore widowes and fatherleſſe children (for that is the true Religion) then for to take their goodes and beſtowe them vppon the dead, or to waſte and conſume them vppon bawdes and harlots, and vponupon their children in like manner.

Hillarius.

I warrant you they will not followe any good example, nor the certeine commaundement of God, but what do they follow in this matter? When I hauehave wel read ouer and ouer againe all the holy Scripture, I doe not finde one worde. And the moſt auncienteſt that I can finde which did firſt bringe in thoſe manner of dooings among the The Authours & inſtitutors of y^e fun…ralls Pluto. Diedo Aeneal Virg. Aene. 5 Ouid. Faſt. 2. 5 Romulus. Plutar. in Romulo.Panims, was Pluto: of whome we will ſpeake off héereafter, whome the Docts and the Panims hauehave made the God of the ſoules: and the king of the dead, and of hell. After him came Aeneas, who did bringe that cuſtome into Italy. After Aeneas, Romulus and Numa the Kinges of the Romaines: afterwardes our Popes, who hauehave contynued, augmented and confirmed ſtill more and more thoſe errours and abuſes. Althoughe that the Panyms hadde yet a certeyne better opynion in the ſame, then our ſuperſtitious Papyſtes hadde. For they dyd not make the ſacryfices for the deade, for the eſtymation that they hadde, that that ſhoulde ſerue them for to deliuer them from paines, but for to appeaſe them, to the ende that their ſpirites ſhoulde not hurt them and doe them euill, if they had diſpleſed them when they were aliue. For Plato himſelfe who hath bene the one of the chiefeſt forgers & Plato de repub li. 12. After death the parents and friends can doe uothuig.inuenters of Purgatory, witneſſeth plainely, that the parents & friends cānot profit y^• dead. And therfore (ſaith he) y^e parents, friends and kinſſlolkes ought to admomſhe their friends that they do liue well and honeſtly, and to do preſently vntounto them that good. For there (to wytte) after this life, they cannot giuegive it thē. And before the iudgement ſeat there ſhall not be any great company of parents & friends which ſhall mainteine and defende and intreate y^• Iudge, and which canne obtaine of him, that he wil pardon thée.

Theophilus.

I would to God that all our diuines bad no more euill and wicked opinions then that panim, touching the dooings of the dead, and that they had ſaide noe ſentence leſſe to be credited then this.

Thomas.

If y^e panims did not meane y^• their ſacrifices & commemoration ſhould profit the dead, wherefore did they it then.

Hillarius.

It might be that they did thinke, that there might retourr… vntounto them ſome little profit: But yet neuertheleſſe their cheife intent and purpoſe was to appeaſe the ſoules of the dead and to reconcile them vntounto them by that meanes, to the end they ſhould not hurt them, either in their bodies or goods: euen as they hauehave accuſtomed to celebrate ſcaſts and to do ſacrifices vntounto the ſoules of holy men, whom they did think to be in heauen with the gods, for to hauehave ayd and ſolace, as Aeneas did vntounto his Father Diuers ſacrili… ces for y^e dead, for diuers cauſesAnchiſes. And all that errour procéeded, from the falſe opinion that they had of the ſoules, and for want of knowing their nature and eſtate, therefore they iudged after their owne ſence and vnderſtanding, and not after the word of God. As they do alſo of the bodies, thinking (at the leaſt the moſt ſuperſticyous, as it hath bene alreadye touched) that the ſoule doth walke a certaine time, if their bodyes hath not bad y^• honor of y^e burial, ſuch as apertameth & was Virg. Aene. 5meete for them: And that the bodies were in daunger of Enchantors and ſorcerers, which would abuſe them thorow their Nycromancic & coniuration. And the Hebrewe The opinion of the Rabius and Doctors of …ae levvs touching the body The dwell A…izel. Ge…. of. 3. d 14 Eſa. …5. d. 24Rabins, and doctors of the Iewes, and in no leſſe dreaming. For they ſay, that the dead body is left in the power of the diuell, who calleth him ſelfe Zazell, and doe wreſt and turne thoſe places of the ſcripture, for to confirme their erroure, vntounto whom it is ſaid vntounto the Serpent: Thou ſhalt eate of the earth all the dayes of thy life. And in another place. The earth ſhalbe the Serpents meate. They woulde conclude by thoſe words, that the body of man, and all that which is in the fleſhe, and the vices therein, is giuen for meate to the Serpent, whom they do call Azazell, lord of the fleſhe and the bloud, and Prince of that world, ſaying that he is alſo called in Leuiticus the Prince of y^e deſerts. Sith then that our body is created and made of the ſlime Geneſ. 2. a.and duſt of the earth, and that the earth is giuen for meat vntounto the ſerpent, they conclude thereby, that our bodies are ſubiect vntounto him, and in his power, vntill ſuch time as they be ſanctified, and that the earthly fleſhe bee tranſformed and changed into a ſpirituall nature. And therfore ſay The foundatiō of the prayers for the deadthey that that body hath neede both in his buriall, & whileſt that he is in this earth, to be purified & ſanctified through prayers ſacrifices, encenſements, exorciſmes, coniurations, and other ceremonies fit for the ſame.

Theophilus.

Durand in that booke, wherein he yeldeth Daran Radiui. off. li. 7. Rub. de off. promort. Reiſerſperg. Sermo do…inic 23. poſt trinit. & 24. & feri. 7.. ſeſt praſent. B. Mar. & don 1. …duent. & fers. 4 feſt. S. Andr The vſe of holy vvater at the burialsthe reaſon of all the popiſh ceremonies, ſpeaking of the office and burying of the dead, allegeth the ſame reaſons, and almoſt nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabaliſtes. Wherein we may well know that the ſuperſticious chriſtians followe more the Iewiſh and Cabaliſticall doctrine, then the Chriſtian and Apoſtolicall doctrine. For Durand himſelfe is compelled to confeſſe, that the bodies of the dead are encenſed and ſprinkled with holy water, not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their ſinnes, which could not then by ſuch things, be defaced & put out: But to the ende that the wicked ſpirites, and theyr preſence ſhould be dryuen away. And therefore ſaith hée that in ſome places, they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue, with the fire and encenſe, and that the holy water is put there, to the e…de that the diuell ſhoulde not come neere, for he doth feare it very much.

Hillarius.

It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier, vntounto whom the diuel appeared A fable of a Cordelier, li. co…form….ſo terrible, that he could not ſpeake for feare. And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche, Fryer Giles could not ariſe, but did creepe as well as hee coulde vntounto a veſſell wherein was holy water, wherewith hee ſprinkled himſelfe: and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vntounto him.

Theophilus.

Behold a good proofe: the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Ieſus Chriſte, and the faith in him: or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith, which is The faith. Ephe. 6. c. 16the buckler and ſhield, wherewith the Apoſtle teacheth vsus to reſiſt the diuell. I do muche meruaile where God hathe commaūded to driue away the diuell by water, and when To driue away the diuell, by waterthe true ſeruants of God hauehave vſed ſuch weapons aginſte the diuell.

Hillarius.

At the leaſtwiſe they muſt prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water,

Theophilus.

When the witnes of the ſcripture faileth it muſt néedes be, that thoſe maiſters of ceremonies hauehave then recourſe vntounto fables. But for to returne againe vntounto the reaſons of Durand, he addeth moreouer, that in what ſoeuer place the chriſtians ſhalbe buried out of the churchyarde, they ought to ſet alwayes a croſſe at his head. For the diuell doth feare very much that ſigne, & dareth not to The ſ…me of the Croſſe.come nigh the place, where he ſeeth the croſſe.

Hillarius.

That is bicauſe that the earth which is out of the church yard, is not coniured. Wherby it hath not ſo much vertue. And therfore in recōpence, they do ad y^• croſſe, for to driue away y^e diuell.

Theophilus.

For y^• ſame cauſe do they alſo coniure y^• earth of y^• churchyard. For as they The hattayle of the D…ll againſt the dead bodyes.do witnes & affirme, y^e diuels hauehave vſed to get thē vntounto the dead bodies, and to exerciſe their cruelty and vengeaunce againſt them, and inforce themſelues to do vntounto them, at the leaſt wiſe after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whileſt they were aliue. Furthermore, they Reiſerſperg. Sermi de mor. …t dominie. piniqua. Mat. 22. h. 21.ſay that at the day of iudgement, our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte will ſay vntounto them that preſent themſelues vntounto him, that whiche be aunſwered vntounto the diſciples of the Herodians, and Phariſes when they aſked of him the queſtion of the tribute, and that they had ſhewed vntounto him the money and Image of Ceſar. Euen ſo will he ſay vntounto thoſe: whoſe is this Image? what money is this? Then thoſe which ſhalbe marked with the croſſe, ſhalbe knowen to bee good chriſtian money: And Ieſus Chriſt will ſay: that whiche is Ceſars, that is to ſay, vntounto the diuell, giuegive it him & that which is vntounto God, giuegive it to God.

Hillarius.

I am abaſhed if the diuell dares carrye away thoſe which hauehave made vppon them the ſigne of the materiall croſſe, eſpecially the prieſtes and moonks, whiche are all hyd and couered with them? Are not theſe goodly reaſons, and moſt worthy of ſuch diuines?

Euſebius.

Yea, thoſe are Godly reaſons, what will you ſay to the contrary? do ye thinke that ſoe manye wiſe men which hauehave bene in the churche hauehave not well conſidered the cauſes, wherefore they ought to do that? And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good & iuſt reaſon?

Theophilus

Thou haſt heard them, and thou haſt alſo the Iewes, Cabaliſts and Panyms, for to be the firſte authors of them. But thoſe dreames are yet more tollerable, and worhty of pardon then thoſe here, bycauſe that hauing the braine full of falſe opinions, and inchauntments, they feare leaſt the enchauntors, Magitians, and eſpecially the coniurers, and the diuell with them, ſhould abuſe their bodies, thorow their enchaūtments necromances & witchcraft. But what excuſe or coloure can the chriſtians hauehave, who ought to be aſſured of their ſaluation in Ieſus Chriſt, as wel for the body as for the ſoule, vſing ſuch ceremonies, which I may truly call charmes inchauntements, & magicall ſuperſticions and purifications, and not euangelical. For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the ſerpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth, how will God permit and ſuffer, that that olde ſerpent, ſhall defile 1. Cor. 6. 1. 19thoſe bodyes whiche hauehave bene the Temple & habit ation of his holy ghoſt? And whiche hauehave bene conſecrated vntounto him, thorow the bloud of his ſonne Ieſus Chriſt, and ſanctified thorow his ſpirite? hauehave the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed, after the manner as the enchaunters & charmers do their exorciſms & coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall croſſe, more vertue then the conſecration of our bodies and ſoules, whiche Ieſus Conſecratiō of Ieſus Chriſt.Chriſt the great and ſoueraigne Byſhoppe and eternall Prieſt, hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy ſpirit, and the baptiſme that we hauehave receyued in his name? And if we as good chriſtians hauehave borne the croſſe with him, that is to ſay, the troubles and aduerſities of this world, in all patience, and hauehave put all our hope and truſt in the merite of his death & paſſion, reioyſing our ſelues only in his croſſe, as the holy apoſtle ſaith wee ought not to doubte but that that faithe, hath imprinted ſuche a croſſe and ſuch a ſigne and marke in our hearts and bodies, y^e the diuel dareth not to approch nor come nigh them. And if that ſame is not ſufficient, there is none other after To heare the croſſe of Chriſt. Mat. 16. d. 24. Luc. 14. …. 27our death, which can ſerue vsus. Furthermore ſith that God hath giuen vntounto vsus his Angels, for to ſerue, kéepe & defend vsus, let vsus not feare, that as they hauehave ca…ted the ſoule of Lazarus, into Abrahams boſome, and hauehave kepte and defended the body of Moſes from the power of the diuell, and Gal. …. d. 14did ſtriue and fight for it againſt them, but that they wilbe Stigmatos. The Angells y^e miniſters of the faithfull. Pſa. 91. c. 11 Lue. 16. e. 22. Heb. 1. d. 14. Epiſt Iude. b. 9. The body and burial of Moſes Deut. 34. b. 6alſo aſſiſting vntounto all true faithfull people, for to kéepe their bodies & ſoules, according to the charge and commiſſion that they hauehave of God and that God himſelfe woulde bury them rather, as he hath buried Moſes, then to ſuffer that Sathan ſhoulde hauehave domination or rule ouer them. Wherfore I do greatly feare, that the bodies and reliques which the idolatrous chriſtians do worſhippe, and honour vnderunder the name and title of the ſaincts, & ſaintes, are not The holy bodie and relicks.the true bodies and reliques of the Saincts and true ſeruants of God, but rather thoſe of ſome malefactory or wicked man and abhominable before God. For it euer any bodyes were lefte vnderunder the power of the olde Serpent, and of the Diuell, thoſe be they, of whom men hauehave made Idols, & which hauehave ben ſet vp for relicks for to be adored & worſhipped, & which hauehave bene the occaſion among the Chriſtian people of the greateſt Idolatry y^e euer was in y^e worlde. Wherefore it is moſt lykeſt to be true, that the diuell maketh himſelfe to be worſhipped and honoured by the bodyes in which he dwelled, and of which he was ſerued during their lyfe, then in thoſe whiche hauehave bene the Temple of the lyuing God, and which hauehave ſerued to his honour and glory, forſaking altogether the diuell and his ſeruice. The Iewes and Cabalyſts hauehave eſtéemed thoſe purifications and ceremonyes about the dead, of which we hauehave ſpoken, to be neceſſary to their bodyes bicauſe that the Magicians and coniurers hauehave vſed to ſteale them Coniurersawaye, or to take certayne members from them for to ſerue for their witchcraftes & to make them inſtruments of the diuell: as it appeareth by the witneſſe of many auncient writings and hiſtoryes.Lucanus Pharſ. li. 6. Erichtho the Sorcerer The cuſtome of Theſlaly. Apul. in aſini. aur. li. 2.

Hillarius.

Lucan declareth it very playnely, deſcribing the Witchcraftes and Sorceryes of Erichtho. For that ſame cauſe the cuſtome was in Theſſalia the which hath alwayes had the name to be full of Enchaunters, Witches and Coniurers, that when any man was dead, a certeine Seriaunt or common Heralde cryed with a loude voyce in the open ſtréete, that if there were any man which woulde kéepe a dead body lette him come foorth and bargaine and agrée for the price?

Thomas.

Wherefore did they ſo? hauehave the dead bodyes in Theſſaly vſed to run away? or whether they were more daungerous then in other countryes.Mortui non mordent. Percius. in pertam rig. dos calces eatē dit.

Hillarius.

Thou mayſt well knowe, that the deade bodyes can no more byte any man, and that they are in an euil caſe, for to runne away ſith y^e they muſt be carryed to be buryed, their ſeete ſtretched out right before.

But I thinke that thou haſt not forgotten that which we hauehave ſpoken of the Panyms, how that they doe not bury their dead by and by, and the cauſes wherefore And therefore the Theſſalians, vſed to keepe their dead al the night, vntil the day that they burned their bodies, and buried Apul. in Aſini. li. 2. Sagae mulieres, ora mortuorum paſsim demorſicant: ea quae ſunt illis artis Magicae ſupplementa Imo vero etiā muſcas indunt.their aſhes, bicauſe they had that opiniō, that the ſorcerers did come in the night and did byte their faces, and diſmember them, for to ſerue them for their enchauntements and witchcraftes: and for to doe the ſame, they tranſforme and chaunge them ſelues into the forme and likenes of what beaſt they liſt: ſometime into y^e likenes of birdes, ſome time like dogs, or myce: yea into the likenes of very flyes: and afterwards doe flye and come into the houſes and enter ſo ſubtilly and ſecretly that none cane perceiue it. And when they are entred within, they thorowe their enchauntements doe make thoſe that keepe them fall into a ſlepe, afterwards they doe vntounto the dead bodies what it pleaſeth them. For that cauſe the parents and frinds of the dead, did hire kéepers, for a péece of money, for to watch all the night by the dead bodie, without ſléeping any thing at all, not ſo much as to winke, or to turne their face here and there, but to hauehave theyr eyes alwayes fixed vponupon the dead body. After that they hauehave founde out keepers, whiche will take vppon them that charge, they deliuer the body vntounto them in charge, hauing witneſſes how they hauehave deliuered it all whole and ſound afterwards they ſhut them into a chamber, with the dead body, and a lampe full of Oyle, for to giuegive them light vntill the morning, and water within veſſels. And if he that Quicquid inde decaptum dimi nutum que juerit id omne de facie ſua deſectū, ſarcire compellitur.kéepeth it do not take good héede of the body the next day whatſoeuer is wanting or diminiſhed of y^e dead body that he hath euil and negligently kept, hee is bounde to reſtore and recompence it of his owne proper face.

Thomas.

Theſe people were verye fooles to beléeue ſuch follyes. Who hath written the ſame.

Hillarius.

A good doctor called Apuleus, whiche ſaith that he hath done that office himſelfe.

Thomas.

Truely thou haſt very well founde it. Peraduenture he hath ſéene the ſame, whileſt that he was chaunged into an Aſſe.To vvate…h the dead.

Hillarius.

I do confeſſe, that the ſame is a great dreaming: But do not the chriſtians almoſt the like? doe not they alſo watche the dead bodies with a candle and holy water? Are they afrayd that they would runne away, or leaſt the Cattes or Mice ſhould come and gnawe the féete and the face of the dead? or whether they are afraid of witches and coniurers? or that the diuell ſhoulde carry them away, as one hath written of ſome, whoſe bodies are not yet toune? if God hath giuen power vntounto the diuels ouer the dead bodies: the water, candles, fire nor incenſe, ſhall not make them afrayd, nor yet the witchecraftes and coniurations, except they will ſay, that they do vſe charme againſt charme, and that theirs is more ſtronger then thoſe of the enchauntors.

Theophilus.

It is not now néede, that they take ſuch paines, for to driue awaye the diuels or the ſocerers from them. For their was neuer forcerer, coniurer nor enchauntor, that abuſed more vile and ſhamefully the bodies of men, nor to the greater diſhonoure of God and hurte of all the Chriſtianitie, then the Prieſtes and Moonks, who in ſteade of the coniuring, that is to ſay, diuination by y^e dead that the Panyms and Infidels hauehave exerciſed and vſed, they hauehave ſet vp & erected a necrolatrie, that is to ſay, an Coniuring.adoration and worſhipping of the dead, and the moſt greateſt Idolatrie that euer was vponupon the earth: And hauehave made the bodies of men to ſerue y^e diuell, & hauehave made him to be worſhiped, vnderunder the name and title of them, euen as Saul worſhiped him vnderunder the name of Samuel, by the Necrolatriemeanes of his old witche. Is not that a great blaſphemy and ſacriledge, to offer & conſecrate vntounto the diuell the bodies of men, whom Ieſus Chriſt hath dedicated and conſecrated Saul. 1. Reg. 18. a. 7. A vvitchto God thorow his bloud, for to bee the Temple of the holy Ghoſt, not for to be Idols, that men ſhoulde worſhip them, in ſtede of God? we may very well ſay, that theſe bodyes of which Sathan is ſerued vnderunder the tytle The bodyes of dead men in the ſteede of the Idolls of the Panimsof the relyckes of ſaints, after the manner as he was ierued before of the Images and Idolls of the panims, hauehave not bene well coniured by the charmes, witchings, croſſe, candells, encenſe and holy water for to driue the Diuell from them: or els y^e all thoſe things were nothing worth ſith that Sathan hath had ſuch power vponupon them, that hée hath letted them to retourne vntounto the place which God hath aſſigned them, to wyt, into the earthe out of which Geneſ. 3 d, 19 Epiſt. Iude. b. 9.they came, and that he hath done that that hée pretended to do about the body of Moſes, the which he deſired to ſet vp for an Idoll among the people of Iſrael, knowing that Exo. 20. a, 4 Deut. 5, a. 6God hath forbidden Images and Idolls. And there is no doubt, but that he had brought it to paſſe, if God by the miniſtring of his Angells, had not letted him, and ſhewed The buriall of the Saintshis vertue and power, not thorow materiall croſſes, holy water, candells and torches, encenſe and lyghts, and other like ſuperſticions, the which Moſes had not at his buryall nor all the Patriarches, Pruphetes, and Apoſtles, nor yet of Prayers, Suffrages, nor Sacrifices, after their death, and yet they were neuertheleſſe delyuered from the power of the ſerpent.

Hillarius.

You forgette the principall, you ſpeake not of the habite of Saint Fraunces which hath yet more vertue The vertue of S, Fraūces habitethen all that which you hauehave declared and ſpoken off, if we will beléeue and giuegive any credite vntounto the Cordeliers and Nonnes. For it doth not onelyonly driue away the diuells which are about the bodye, but alſo it quencheth the fire of Purgatory, and mitigateth the paynes, eſpecially if that he which hath clad himſelfe with it doe dye vponupon Saint Fraunces daye. But which is more, it delyuereth The feaſt of Saint Fraunces.from eternall death, as the Cordeliers doe witneſſe of the king of Caſtilia, which was delyuered, bicauſe y^t being The king of Caſtilia Moſt horrible blaſphemy. The ſelicitie of the lyce & their boldeneſſeready to dye he did put on him y^t holy garment, & dyed in the ſame: and aſwell of other Kings & Quéenes, of whom mention is made of them in y^e booke of y^e conformities. Whrfore I eſteeme y^e lice the moſt happieſt creatures of all others, according to the Theologie of the Cordeliers. For there dyeth a great number of them within that holy habite. Wherefore Fryer Lewes did no wrong, in callyng them the pearles of the poore. But I doe much meruayle of one thing, y^t the Lyce are more bolder then the Diuells, ſith that the Diuells doe ſo much feare that holy habite that they dare not approche and come nighe, and the Lyce lodge there at their eaſe. I ſhould well beléeue that if the Diuells were as fearefull as the young children, that they ſhoulde be greatly afrayde of that habite and maſke at the beginning, when they did ſee men ſo wildely diſguyſed. And I thinke, that if Ortis the kings Ortis a MooreMoore, had bene the firſte that had dyed in that habite, that they woulde hauehave had great feare. For he was as blacke as a Diuell, & diſguyſed as a Cordelier, wherefore they would hauehave founde the ſame very ſtraunge.

Thomas.

But I am wonderfully abaſhed, wherfore they put rather a croſſe in the handes of thoſe which dye in the habite of Saynt Fraunces, then in the hands of poore ſimple people, who are buried onelyonly in a ſhéete.

Hillarius

I can giuegive vntounto thée none other reaſon, but that I thinke that the ſame is done by the permiſſion and prouidence of God, which will that men ſhould doe vntounto them honour, as they cuſtomally doe vntounto the euill and wicked men, when they are executed thorow Iuſtice, vntounto which in many places and countryes, they make him to beare a croſſe in his handes, chiefely the Sorcerers and Heretickes. Wherefore men doe not very great wrong vntounto thoſe Idolaters which doe put theyr affiaunce and VVhat doth the croſſe ſignifie vhich is beciven y^e hands of thoſe vvhichwhich do dye in the habite of Saint Frauncestruſt in an olde rotten garment, to compare them vntounto the Sorcerers and Heretickes, rather then to the poore ſimple people, ſith that they hauehave declared themſelues more Infidells then the other, and that they hauehave leſſe fayth and hope in the merite of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt.

Euſebius.

Wherefore doeſt thou ſpeake ſo outragiouſly, ſith that the moſt honeſte and wiſe men and which are moſt eſtéemed in this worlde, hauehave deſired to dye in that habite?

Theophilus.

So much the more oughte wée to feare moſte, ſeeing that the efficacie and ſtrengthe of Sathan The efficacie of Sathan.hath béene ſo greate, that the moſt wyſeſt men of the worlde, and thoſe which are accompted for good and vertuous men, hauehave bene deceyued thorowe ſuch opinions, and are fallen into ſuch blaſphemyes, the which yet thoſe wicked Moonkes are not aſhamed to vpholde and maynteyne. For what blaſphemy was euer greater The blaſphemy of the cordeliervppon the earthe, as to to attribute vntounto ſuche a Maſke, the healthe and ſaluation of ſoules, and to make an Idoll and newe Chriſt, not onelyonly of Saynt Fraunces, but alſo of his hoode and habite? Whereas in déede I doe not thinke, that he was euer diſguyſed in ſuch ſorte, and that he hath bene the author of thoſe blaſphemyes, of which vnderunder his name and tytle all the worlde hath bene filled and poyſoned, thorowe the meanes and practiſe of thoſe falſe bretheren the Cordeliers, which hauehave bene the Trompette and Bagpipe of ſathan The bagpipe of Sathan.throughout all Chriſtendome, together with theire other companions. But to what ende doth that habite profite the deade? It maye ſerue for thoſe that bee lyuing for a gowne, hoſe, bonet and hoode, for to couer and keepe them from the colde.

Hillarius.

You doe yet forgette the chiefeſt. For it ſerueth alſo vntounto the Moonkes, for to ſhewe that they The vtlliue of the habiteare effeminated, and worthye to bee taken for woemen, although that by their workes, they ſufficiently declare themſelues not to be woemen, and that men doe not call them father, without good cauſe. Yet neuertheleſſe mée thinkes they are repugnaunt to the Scripture which forbiddeth men to putte on woemens rayment, nor the The diſguiſing of men like women. Deut 22. a. 5woeman that which pertayneth vntounto the man. And yet neuertheleſſe, hée which ſhall conſider and marke well their apparayle, they are lyker woemens apparayle then mens, aſwell thoſe which they commonly weare, as the veſtements which they doe vſe in their Maſſes.

Theophilus.

I graunt vntounto thée all that: but to what ende ſerueth it to the dead? Firſt of all what profite can it bring vntounto the ſoule? For it cannot touch it, cloathe, nor couer it, nor yet deſcende into Purgatory with it.

The body alſo goeth neither into purgatory nor into hell, but is buryed in the earth, vntill the day of the reſurrection. For then the habite ſhall be cleane rotten, and I do not beléeue that it ſhall ariſe with the body, and that thoſe which are dead in the ſame, ſhall ariſe agayne clothed in a Cordelier. For it ſhall not be then time to make maſkes and daunce the moriſh. There is neyther the habite of Fraunces, Dominicke, nor of any Moonke whatſoeuer he be, nor any thing that man can muent and dreame, which can ſerue vsus any thing before the face of that great Iudge The iudgement of God. The leanes of y^e Fig tree of Adā. Geneſ. 3. …. 7of the quicke & of the dead, no more then the Fig leanes ſerued Adam for to couer him before him, but that hée will ſée all our filthineſſe and abhominations, if they hée not couered and hid with the righteouſnes and innocencie of Ieſus Chriſt. Wherefore if we will appeare clothed and not naked before his maieſtie, it muſt be that he himſelfe doe cut out and make the apparayle and habite, wherewith we muſt be clothed, as he did make vntounto Adam Adams apparelland and Eue. And therfore we muſt follow the counſaile of the Apoſtle, who exhorteth vsus to put off the olde man, and to put on, not y^• habite of Fraunces or Dominicke, but our Lur Lord Ieſus Chriſt. For that is an habite which The habite of Chriſt & of the relygious Chriſtians Ephe. 4. …. 22 Collo, 3, b. 10.ſerueth both to the body and to the ſoule, and which delyuereth from y^e iudgement of god. That is the holy water, the lights, bells, ſencings and candells, which delyuereth our bodies & ſoules from the power of the ſerpent, whoſe head he hath broken. That is the water of lyfe, Geneſ. 3. c 15 Iohn. 4. b. 14which rayſeth vsus vntounto eternall lyfe: which waſheth and maketh cleane our conſciences. That is the true fire of Purgatorye, and furnayce in which the olde Adam is melted and made newe, and the newe man purged from all his filthyneſſe and ſimes. Wherefore I doe giuegive counſell vntounto you all, that you take good héede that ſuch treaſure be not ſtollen from you, and that you truſt not to the good déeds which thoſe that be alyue ſhall doe for you after that you are dead: But that you doe putte your truſt in Ieſus Chriſt, and declare and ſhew foorth the vertue and efficacie of your fayth, thorow charitie and good workes, which doe ſerue to the glory of God, to the edyfiyng of his Church, and the vtilytie of our neighbour, and that you follow the example of the true ſeruaunts of God, and the doctrine which the holy Ghoſt by them hath giuen vntounto vsus, not the Gentiles and Panims, and the falſe pyophets & ſeducers, which hauehave altogether turned vpſide downe the Chriſtian Religion, and hauehave conuerted it, not only into Iewiſhnes, but alſo into panimrie, witchcraft, & ſorcertee.

Euſebius.

You hauehave ſpoken as it pleaſeth you: but I muſt néeds auniſwere you. For if you diſpute & plead all alone, you may eaſely winne the victory.

Hillarius.

We deſire none other thing then to heare thy reaſons but wée hauehave forgotten one of the princiyall poynts. For we hauehave not yet demaunded of Thomas the cauſe wherfore he would go to ſaint Patricke: the which I deſire glady to know.

Thomas.

I hauehave determined with my ſelfe many times to tel you: but I deſire, to heare firſt what Euſebius can ſay agaynſt you. Wherefore I doe thinke it beſt that foraſmuch as all theſe dayes, there is none of vsus which is ſo greatly occupyed but that wée may giuegive him the next day for his reuenge, to aunſwere: And after that I hauehave hearde all you, I will declare vntounto you y^• meruaylous fantaſtes which I hauehave in my head.

Hillarius.

I beléeue, that there is none of vsus, but that he is of that opinion.

Theophilus.

In ſtéede where others doe paſſe awaye the time in playing and other vayne occupations, whereoff commeth no profite, I finde it better, that we vſe ſuch recreations, which bring no hurt vntounto any man, but may much ſerue and profite vsus. For in ſo doing we learne the one the other: and doe examine the things together, the better to knowe how to render a reaſon of our Law and Religion: beſides that we learne ſome honeſt recreation together, the which is better agreeing with our eſtate, then to remayne idle without doing any thing, or in loſing the time in beholding foolyſh playes and maſkes: or in banketting and in beſtowing great expences, yet to the hurte and domame of our bodyes and ſoules: or vntounto ſléeping, and as beaſtes to giuegive our ſelues onelyonly vntounto pleaſures, as many doe. And although that all wée may bée occupied in other mens affaires, eyther publicke or domeſticall, which woulde better ſerue for the purſſe and for the perticular gayne & profite: yet neuertheles one cannot be alwaies attētife in great affaires, without hauing ſome intermiſſion and relaxation of the ſpirite: And wée muſt not be ſo couetous after the gayne and the perticular profite, that at no time we ſhould hauehave leaſure to ſpeake and falke of the things of God, and that thorow honeſt pleaſures and recreations, we may not refreſh our wits and ſpirites, and prepare them agayne to the great affaires to which God hath called vsus all, according to the grace that we hauehave receyued of him.

Thomas.

There is nothing more certeyn then that which thou ſayſt, and I would not for a great thing, but that I had bene with you and to hauehave heard, that which I hauehave heard. Hillarius. Wée ſhall knowe in the ende what taſt thou haſt had therein. Yet neuertheleſſe I doe more feare leaſte that Euſebius bée more offended then thou. But I truſt notwithſtandinge, that the hope that he hath of the victory, will giuegive him courage and boldneſſe to come agayne the more willyngly.

The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 2 · Body of dialogue (2 of 2)