Answer to Assertions of Fecknam, Body of L.T.s answer · Part 2
2 That the holie Angels and Sainctes of heauen may heare our prayers.
AS touching this question (M. Fecknam) to saye what I thinke, it is but fond and curious, as sought forth and inuented rather to be some stay and ground to a scisme, thā to edifie the church of God. For no doubt had it bin necessarye for vsus, the holy Ghost would hauehave made some expresse mention of it in the canonical scriptures, wheras I am sure you are not able to bring one direct place. But suche is the nature of man, readyer to seeke out things of no profit, & whiche serue to nothing but to strife & dissention, than to folow y• which is left vntounto them for their profit. The cause of this search hath bin to maintaine your prayer to the saincts, which how it foloweth of it, if it be to be graunted, we shall sée héereafter. As for that error of Vigilantius I had rather erre wt him, than go straight with Hierome, if you can shew me no better proofe. To be short in this fond matter, omitting the varietie of many opinions, as Augustines in his booke de spiritu & amma, where he sayth thus: Ibi siquidem sunt spiritus defunctorum, vbi non vident, ne que audi…nt▪ &c. There are the spirits of ye dead, where they neither sée nor heare &c. and in diuers other places, & also other mennes: also letting passe other questions which ensue hereof: how farre they heare? And what they heare? with such like, I will lay downe this onelyonly which I reade in Hazzohar, His wordes in the Syrian tong sound thus woord for woord. Tantum sciunt Angeli de rebus nostris, quantum illis datū est & traditum vt sciant. the angels know so much of our affaires as is giuen and deliuered to them to know. What that is, & when it is, neither you can tell, neither any of yours, that you may make your conclusion auaileable. And for such an vncertaintie whereby your consciences can not be staid to leaue a certaintie and an vnfallyble anker, Inuoca me in die tribulationis, cal vponupon me in the day of trouble. Vnus est mediator dei & hominum homo Christus Iesus, there is one mediator of God and mā, the man Christ Iesus. Quaecun que petieritis paetrem meum in nomine meo dabit vobis: What so euer you aske my father in my name he will giuegive it you: To leaue I say these sure holdes & such like, for that doutful change, what ouersight is it, what contempt of Gods word? As for the consequēt you make hereof. The angels hear vsus, ergo we may or must pray vntounto them. I know not how you thinke in your owne conscience, but to my iudgement it is so strange as the Doctrine it selfe, yea rather more duplicate page duplicate page strāge. When you shalbe able to make me this a good cōsequent, I wil say as you say: but sooner may you bring heauen & earth together, sooner may you cause the East & the West to meete, than to bring it to any rule of a good cōsequent. I am sure M. Fek. yt audire et precari, that is, to hear & to pray, are two accidents, disparata, yt is vnlike & seperated one frō ye other, which depēd not either of other, vllo aut praedicationis aut naturae vinculo, either ratione sui, or ratione subiecti. And as good a cōsequent is this, to say, Craesus est diues, Ergo Philosophus, yt is, Craesus is rich, therfore he is a Philosopher, as Angeli audiunt, Ergo angeli sunt inuocandi, that is, Angels heare, therefore they are to be called vponupon. And vnlesse this cōsequent be admitted, you hauehave no grounde for this poinct of doctrine. I am loth, I ensure you to s…and in this poincte. For any man that shal either heare or reade this, will think rather I speake it to triūphe ouer you (as God knoweth I do not, I wishe you better) bicause the matter is more playn, thā that it néedeth any suche demonstration. But lesse I could not speak, bicause you so make the collection in your first allegation. For my parte I doo as gladly let passe things not necessarie & of small moment, as other men coulde bée content to hauehave them buried. Well, for inuocation it self ether of Aungels or sainctes, let vsus say a worde or two (for to speake much of it at this present it néedeth not, for that it hath bin freshly handled by others, & you hauehave séene it or may) and dispatch this trifling question, whiche bréedeth more dissention thā it bringeth profit. First we hauehave this, that inuocation is a peece of Gods seruice due onelyonly to his honour, inuoca me in die tribulationis, call vppon me in the day of trouble, and of this he is ielous. Honorem meum non dabo alteri, my honour I will gyue to none other, & such a peece of Gods seruice it is, that it carieth a beleef with it in him on whome ye call, quo modo inuocabunt, in queas non crediderunt? Ro. 10.14.how shall they call on him in whom they hauehave not beleeued? in whom you must beléeue, you are not I trust to learne in this age, but thus much by the way, he muste bée God, in quem credis, in whom you beléeue. It is not cui, nor de quo to whom you gyue credit, nor of whom you beleue well. But foreign in quem that is, in whome If you can find any other inuocatiō but this, I would gladly sée it: non quaero exemplum, quaero▪ authoritatem, I séeke not or demaund of you an example or facte, but authoritie. I demaūd no more of you, than you may iustly of mée: of our rest and certeyntie, I gyue you these: Inuoca me in die tribulationis, cal on me in the day of trouble. And oure Sauiour Chryst, when you will praye, praye thus: Oure father &c. Not that no other forme of prayer may be vsed, but shewing to whom the prayer must be directed. And ageyne, whosoeuer calleth be schem Iehouah, vponupon the name of the Lord, he shalbée saued. And howe this is to be taken if we neither lerne of Christe nor Christian, an old Iewe will teache vsus,Rabbi Iodan. Rabbi Iodan, god giuegive vsus al this cōfessiō. His words recited in Midrasch tillim be mizmor 4 are these Basar vadam iesch lo pitron higiay lo yeth tzarah eno nichnas lephanau pithom ella ba veyamad al pethach pitrono ve kore le abdo vehu omer, peloni al happethah: ve hacchadosch baruch hu eno chen. higia eth tzara le Israyl lo iehe kore lo le Gabriel, ve lo le Michael, ella kore otho, veh one otho hare hu daamar, colascher ikra be schem Iehouah immalet. That is, flesh & bloud hath a patron in ye time of his necessitie, he will not streightway go into his presence, but commeth and standeth at the dore of his patrone, and calleth his seruant, & he telleth his Maister that there is one at the dore. But with God we must not so do. At what time Israel is in affliction or necessitie, he must neither call to Gabriel nor to Michael, but he must call vppon God, and he heareth him: and this is if that is sayd: whosoeuer calleth on the name of ye Lord, he shalbe saued. But as I sayde, I will not be long herein bicause it were but Actum agere, to do that is already done: my purpose is but to run ouer your Arguments.
Youre firste is this: To this opinion is cleane repugnant the saying of our Sauior Christ when he teacheth that more ioy shal be in heauen before the Angels of God vponupon one sinner doing penance, than vponupon nintie and nine iust men which neede no penance.
First, not to medle with the sense of the place, whiche Christe expresseth by these wordes of ioy, applying his doctrine vntounto our capacitie, I may wel answer you with a simple denial. The cōsequent is naught, Angels shal reioyce vponupon the conuersiō of a sinner, ergo Angels do heare and knowe whatsoeuer we aske and pray: A futuro ad praesens in meris contingentibus, you knowe non valet argumentum. And it is not a consequentibus as you take it. For those Argumentes must be in pari tempore. As for Example: Haec mulier pariet, ergo concipiet, this woman shall bring foorth, therfore shée shall conceyue. And it is naught to saye pariet, Ergo concepi…, she shal bring foorth, therefore she hath conceyued: vnlesse there be limitatio temporis, a limitation and restrainte to the certayne time in which she conceyued: and yt in ijs quae sunt ex necessitate materiae. But in …erè cōtingentibus, they must be always …iusdem temporis ▪ at one selfsame time, as …ras pluet, ergo …ras nubes erunt, to morowe it shall rayne, therfore to morowe there shalbe cloudes. But to saye …ras pluet, ergo hodie nubes sunt, to morow it shal rayne, therfore there are clouds this day, this is no reasō. For agréement of time being set posito antecedente, sequitur cōsequens etiam in contingētibus. If one reioyce it is a consequent that he heareth or hath heard, but to say, he shall reioyce to morow, ergo, he heareth to day. I can not tell how this consequent hangeth togither. What if I answer you, facta reuelat… Deus, nō facienda: that is to say, God reuealeth things done, & not to be done. What cā you then say? Your place imporeth, ye God wil make manifest to Angels, how a sinner hath repēted, not that he wil shewe to them that they shall repent. And so had youre Argument ben good: He will make them reioyce for the cōuersion of a sinner, therfore he wil shew thē ye conuersion of a sinner. I say vntounto you, your place doth importe this, yt facta reuelat Deus, non facienda. They shall reioyce for a sinner retourned, not for a sinner that shall retourne. I knowe that God hath reuealed vntounto his seruaunts things past and things to come, but when he doth it, or whether he doth it alwayes, I say you knowe not, and therefore your collection is naughte. Where you say, neyther yf they knowe our penaunce, shall they bee ignoraunt of our petitions: I saye your collection is naught, although I touch not ye false kind of reasoning, which is à conclusione hypothetica ad categoricam, in materia cōtingēti. And therfore you are mad men in praying vntounto thē, vnlesse you hauehave some more sure and certaine groūd than this: and they are no mad men which make them so ignorāt: for vnlesse god doth reueale it vntounto them, they know in a manner no more than we do: and when he doth reueale it vntounto them and how muche, and in what cases, when you can certifie me and others, we wil beleue it. In the meane season if we suspend our faith vntil we hauehave a better rest for it, I pray you do not call vsus mad men. But now for the sense of the place. Doth he not in those thrée parables set forth vntounto vsus ye …are that he hath of his churche, in that he of his singular louelove séeketh vsus whē we go astray from him: He laboreth to finde vsus, when we be lost: and is ready to receyue vsus when we turne vntounto him: and thereby also aduertise vsus of our duetie, to seeke the helpe and safetie of eche other, not to condemne the wāderers which go astray but by his example to séeke meanes to bring them vntounto Chryst, that in so doing being members bothe of one body, we may reioyce togither and glorif…e God, we may hauehave that cōsolation & comfort, which brethren ought to hauehave, and especially those which are the childrē of God? To moue vsus to this duetie, he setteth before vsus ye doing of that part of the church which is better, & which is in heauen, he setteth before vsus I say the doing of the Angels, who as they be mēbers of this body, so do they reioyce, when they see that cōsent and conformitie in the members, which ought to be in so pretious a body. If then they be ioyous and glad that sinners do repēt, what ought we to do, which are present with them, & seeing their infirmities may cōsider our own, and by mercy shewed to them, be more cō firmed in the graces of God? This I say is the sense of the place. Now then bicause we are here instructed of the charitie and louelove, which is and ought to be in ye churche of God and members of Christes body, bicause there is a true ioy and gladnesse eche with other, when God bestoweth his graces, which before séemed to be shut vp: bicause this foreign that is, natural and mutuall agréement, is not only in the mē bers on the earth, but in those also which are in heauen: will you therfore conclude that things done here on earth, and words spoken, are heard and knowne vntounto them at all times and seasons, as yf they were heades and not members, Gods and no Aungels? For to sée our harts & thoughts, to heare our sighes and wordes is a propertie of Gods nature, gyuen vntounto no Angell, but when he reuealeth it vntounto him: & that not alwayes, but as he shall thinke it expedient both for them and vsus: and as for such reuelations, this place sheweth it not, this only is here declared, what charitie and louelove there is in the true members of Christe his body, and the fruict therof, God working as well in them as in vsus a knowledge of things done, and gladnesse therefore. And thus muche touching this place of Luke .xv. whereof you can neyther cōclude that thei do continually héere vsus, neyther yf they did, that we shuld pray therfore vntounto them.
Your next argument is out of Tobie, 12. This also is refelled by the saying of the Angell Raphaell vntounto Tobie. Quando orabas cum lachrymis & sepeliebas mortuos, &c. When thou prayedst with teares, and burriedst the dead, and forsokest thy dynner, and hiddest by the day dead folkes in thy house, and buriedst them in the night, I did offer thy prayer vntounto the Lorde. All these things the Angell Raphael did know, when Tobie thought lest hereof: and what? shall wee aduenture to say, that the Angel knew it onelyonly, and affirme that no other Angell doth knowe the like, or shall the Aungels knowe it, and not the glorified sainctes of God, when he promiseth of them, that in the resurrection they shall be like Angels? Matt. 22.
I muse at this kind of dealing (M. Fecknam) I might say vntounto you, vna hirundo non facit ver, one swalow maketh not sō mer: but that is not the matter: to see all things that are done of vsus, or to heare vsus, is it natura Angelorum, the nature of the Angels? or is it speciale donum, a speciall gift. What kind of reasoning is this, in accidentibus commumbus to reason ab vno indiuiduo ad speciem, or à specie ad genus. Were this a good argumente to say, Socrates Philosophus verè sentit de summo bono, Ergo, omnes Philosophi verè sentiunt de summo bono? Socrates the Philosopher iudgeth truely or a righte of the chéefest good, or happinesse, therfore all Philosophers iudge and thinke truely therof. Yours is the same. Raphaell saw his doyng, therfore all ye Angels saw Tobie his doings, & per consequentiam, cōsequently, they sée ours. I sée not (Master Fecknam) why I may not deny consequentiam & consequens, that is, both your conclusion and that which you woulde inferre thereof. For neyther doth it folow, yf Raphaell saw Tobie, therfore all did see him, neyther yf they sawe his doyngs, therefore they see ours. For as I sayd, it is neyther the nature of an Angel, neyther the propertie of an angell: of whiche two there must bée one to make an argument good à specie ad genus, or by an induction. Thus much touching your kind of reasoning, in groūding an article of religion, which hath no other ground of scripture for his warrant. I maruayle that the aungell whiche appeared to Cornelius made nothing to your purpose.Act. 10. ver. 3 For he sawe him in a vision, and declared vntounto him how his matters went. Therefore you might hauehave concluded some thing. But wil you know, why he is out of your rolle? Because he sayd, thy prayers and thine almes are come vp into remembraunce before God: & did not say, I did carie vp thy prayers. And yet I wisse you might hauehave as well concluded by this, ergo the angels know what wée do. Euen both a like, when God sendeth them, when god openeth vntounto them, I thinke they know. And surely to bée noted it is, that the aungell sayth not, I knew, I saw, I caried thy prayers: but, thy prayers are come, to gyue vsus to vnderstande that as they are but messengers, so we can not, nor ought assure our selues more of thē than their master willed them to reuele vntounto vsus. Now to your author, who as you alleadge is Tobie, whose authoritie cited as scripture I deny it, I finde no such author in my Bible. I meane not the Geneua Bible,That is, the 5. bookes of Moyses, the first Prophetes, the last Prophetes, the litle volumes, the holy wrytings. whereat diuerse of you list to ieast, but I would you could shewe a better in our tongue, or iustly correct it: I meane that Bible, which is deuided into these partes, CH. CH. T. NR. NA. MG. Hac: Yf he were in this nūber, I would not, neyther could I reiect him as not scripture, as not written with the singer of God: but bicause I finde him not, I dare not be so bolde as to make him felow with ye holy ghost, to groūd my faith vpō him as vponupon the holy scriptures: & how you ought to read him & such others and vse him Hierom doth teach you, I néed not repeate it. And this for Tobie. Now touching your allegatiōs out of ye 4. Reg. 6 of the reuelation yt was giuen to Elizeus, touching the secretes of the king of Syria, and Act. v. the reuelation to Peter of ye secrete thoughts of Ananias, I know not to what purpose they make touching your question: these places & many mo shew vntounto vsus how boūtifully God hath poured his spirit vponupon his seruants the Prophets and Apostles at diuers & sundry times, for the helpe & comfort of his church: but to proue either an intelligence continual yt the Angels hauehave of our affaires, or for vsus to pray vntounto them, they serue nothing at all. I beseeche you what wil you conclude: God reueled the secretes of the king of Syria to Elizeus, and of Ananiss to Peter. Therfore he reuealeth to ye Angels our doings, therfore we must pray to them and to the Sainctes? What dealing is thys? You heape here an other place of S. Augustine to as much purpose Si Prophetae, To. 5. de ciuit Dei, lib. 20. cap. 22.nondum facta nosse po…uerunt, per hoc quod erat Deus, (quantulucum que erat) in eorum mortalium mentibus, quo modo immortales sancti, iam f…cta, tum nescient, cùm erit Deus omnia in omnibus? If the Prophetes coulde know things before they were done, by this that God was (how much so euer he was) in the mindes of them as yet beyng mortall, how shall they not know then things that bee done already beyng, immortall sainctes, when God shall bee in them all in al? You sée euidently yt he speaketh here howe & in what case they shal be in the latter daye, when indéed yt shal be rightly verified, yt he shall bée all in all. And what doth this impugne ye saying of M. Gough? who denieth not yt in ye latter day wée shall see God face to face, we shall most fully sée & know that which neyther eye hath séen, neyther eare hath heard, neyther at any time hath it entred into ye hart of man. A more ful knowledge, a more ample sight, a better vnderstāding thā this you cā not hauehave. This we graūt, yours we deny. We graūt this also, yt we may make an end, & come to your arguments) that the angels which God hath commaunded to waite vppon vsus,Heb. 1.14. Psal. 91.11. Psalm. 34.7 to guide vsus in all our wayes, to be round about vsus, to admonish vsus and comfort vsus, …o watche perpetually for our sauegard, these angels sée and know what we do, frō the vtmoste action, to the inwardst thought, if God so dispense vntounto them, and make them his ministers, who is the sole and only searcher of hearts and raines, knower of thoughts and mindes: and yet foloweth it not, that we must pray to them: neither yet, that other Sainctes do know what we do or thinke. I say the dead, the saincts, do no more know what we do here while it is in doing, than we know what they do: and when they know any thing, it is by after information, or by the ministerie of the Angels, as in like case they minister vntounto vsus. So that certaintie you can hauehave none to found your prayers vponupon: for while you are praying, they do not knowe.
And although you may alledge me som visions which may séeme to confirme your purpose, putting the case I should graunt them: yet can you no more proue that they knowe and vnderstand our doings, than if in your dreame you should hauehave a thing opened vntounto you by one which was sléeping when you slept, & nothing thought of you. What if they hauehave care for vsus being there, as requisite too, for that they bée mēbers with vsus, and charitie ceaseth not: Do they therfore know what wée doo? we hauehave care of them also, and yet wée know not what they doe. We louelove them as whē they were here, we laude and magnifie God, that he hath dealt so louingly with thē, we reioyce that they are already partakers of that, whiche we looke & hope for, running the same race of faith and feare of God. This care I saye we hauehave of them, thus in charitie wée are affectioned towardes them, & yet knowe we not what they doe: no more do they, what we doe. Wel, nowe lette vsus come to youre Arguments of Doctors.
Mayster Gough, say you, to proue that no Saints being dead can heare vsus, alleadged the saying of the Prophet Isai. &c. Abrahā nesciuit nos. &c. That is, sayth M. Goughe, Now after they be dead they hauehave no maner of knowledge of vsus, but be cleane ignorant of things done here vpō the earth. But S. Hierome hath an other interpretation, which I thinke I may prefer before master Goughs saying, Abraham nesciuit nos .i. Abraham non agnouit nos pro filijs. Abraham hath not knowue vsus, that is, Abraham hath not allowed or acknowledged vsus for hys children: and why? Quia te offendimus: bicause we hauehave offended thee, saith S. Ierom. He saith not, quia Abraham & Israel mortui sunt. Bicause Ahraham & Israel be dead, as if thereby they coulde hauehave no longer knowledge of them?
What if S. Hierom hauehave an other, is M. Goughes therefore naught? Nay, but you had rather prefer S. Ieromes. Do you think that M. Gough hath no authoritie for his? Do you thinke that he hath not as good as S. Hierome? If you think so, I wil giuegive you to vnderstand the contrary. If you do not thinke so, why do you conceale the truthe, and stand rather vponupon man than vponupon the word of God? This is the miserie that you hauehave, that whilest you will not hearken to the scriptures, but what this man or that man sayth, you wauer vp and down, now alleaging one man, now an other, not knowing wel where to stand. Wel, I wil bring you two, neither to be misliked in such cases, the one comparable to Hierome in all respectes. First Kimki on this place sayth: al derech, abi ve immi. &c. On this sort is it spoken in an other place, Pater meus & mater mea dereliquerunt me, Dominus autem assumpsit me. Quamuis enim pater noster. Abraham multis iam preterlapsis seculis mortuus sit, & pater carnalis non nouerit filium aut nepotem suum nisi dum viuit, tu tamen pater noster viuis & duras de seculo in seculum, ita vt opus non sit nobis clamare nisi ad te, & per omnes aetates tam quae preterierunt quàm quae futura sunt, tu es pater noster, tu redemptor noster ex omni afflictione & in perpetuum nomē …uum erit super nos: That is, my father and my mother hauehave forsaken me, but ye Lord hath gathered me vp. For although our father Abrahā were dead many many yeares agoe, and a carnall Father doth not know his sonne or his nephew but while he liueth, yet thou O father liuest and remainest for euer, so that we hauehave no néed to cry vntounto any other but vntounto thée, & through out al ages as wel forepassed as to come, thou art our father, thou art our redéemer out of all trouble, & thy name shall be vponupon vsus for euer. The other is S. Augustine, Cap. 13.whome you néed not to hauehave concealed, if you had mynded the truth. But if you shuld hauehave alleaged them bothe, you could not hauehave tolde which way to hauehave gone. Giuing his definite mynd & sentence vppon these matters and questions, he sayth thus: vt volet accipiat quis que quod dicam. &c. Let eueryevery man take as he listeth, that which I will say: If the soules of the departed did meddle with the affairs of the liuing, & did speake vntounto vsus when we sée them in visions, to hold my peace of other, my louing mother would no night forsake me, which folowed me by Sea and by land, that she might liue with me. For God forbid that she should be made with a happie life so cruel, that when any thing gréeueth my heart, she should not comfort hir heauie sonne, whom she would neuer sée sad. But surely that is true which the godly Psalme sayeth: My father and my mother hauehave forsaken me, but the Lord hath gathered me vp. Therfore if our fathers hauehave forsaken vsus, how do they communicate with our cares and affairs? and if our Parents do not communicate or do not meddle, what other are there of the dead, which know what we doe, and what we suffer? Esay the Prophet sayeth, for thou art our Father: For Abraham hathe forgotten vsus, and Israell doth not knowe vsus. If so great Patriarkes did not knowe what was done to the people begotten of them, to whome beléeuing God, the people was promised of their stocke, how do the dead know and helpe the affaires and doings of others? How say we yt they were well dealt withall, which died before aduersitie came, which folowed their death, if so be that also after death they féel what so euer things come to passe in the calamities of mannes lyfe? Or peraduenture we erre in so saying, and we thinke those quiet whome the vnquiet lyfe of the lyuing doth grieue. And so forth alleaging as you knowe to the same purpose the promisse made to Iosias, and so concluding sayeth thus. Ibi ergo sunt spiritus defunctorum, vbi non vident quaecun que aguntur, aut eueniunt in ista vita hominibus. Therfore the soules of the dead are there, where they sée not whatsoeuer things are duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page done or come to men in this lyfe. Thus then you neaded not hauehave in such sort cast off Master Gough, as though it were a heauie comparison betwixt him and Hierom. He is as you sée, as wel to be thought of as Hierome, in that he hath for his part the whole Scriptures, these two learned men. Other I do not recken vp, you your selfe acknowledge in your selfe that I might bring more: But in this varietie of men, what certaintie cā you hauehave for your conscience, if you do not at the lēgth come to the Scriptures? Wherein you can not find one word well taken, whereby you may proue that the dead doe know our doings, vnlesse it be by espetiall Reuelation, or worke of GOD, which you can neuer drawe to a rule.
As for the prosecuting of that manner of speache, I doe not know you, for, I doe not acknowledge you: I thinke there is no man so enuyous, but will graunt you that truthe. Sed quorsum illa, to what purpose is that? Although it be so taken in very many places, yet why it should be so taken there I sée no reason. I speake what I thinke, I knowe there be interpreters as well one way as other. But the circumstance of the text in my minde draweth that way. You go further.
If this vvill not satisfie master Gough, To. 4. de cura agend. pro mort. cap. 16.let him heare Sainct Augustine: vvho shevveth vppon occasion of thys place, in vvhat manner the Sainctes doe heare vsus. Per diuinam inquit potentiam Martyres viuorum rebus intersunt. &c. By diuine povver the Martyres are heere present in the dooings of those that be alyue, for being dead by their ovvne proper nature to bee present in the doings of those that be aliue, they can not.
Nowe you some thing chaunge your state, and make Duo predicata, where before you made but one. Your first conclusion was, That the Sainctes and Angels may or doe heare our Prayers: Now you put in may by diuine power heare our Prayers: And so you committe a fault which is called, A secundum quid ad simpliciter. Againe in Accidentibus communibus a specie ad genus, saying thus. The Martirs do heare vsus: therfore al Sainctes. For your Doctor in your owne place alleaged, maketh a difference betwixt them in this matter and sayeth. Non igitur ideo putandum est viuorum rebus, quoslibet interesse posse defunctos, quoniam quibusdam sanandis vel alliunandis martyres adsunt: sed ideo potius intelligendū est, quod per diuinam &c. Therfore it is not for that cause to be thought that eueryevery one that is dead, can be present in the doynges of those that bee alyue: because the Martyres are present in healing and helping of some. But therfore rather it is to bée vnderstoode, that by the deuine power the martyres are present in the doyngs of those that bée aliue, because the dead by theyr owne proper nature can not bée present in the doyngs of those that bée a lyue. He concludeth a cleane contrarie position to yours, saying that the martyrs are presente, because the saincts can not bée. And how the Martyres be present he sheweth in these woordes, per diuinam potentiam, by diuine power. For this is not orderly, but as he sayd before, verū ista diuinitus exhibentur, longe aliter quàm sese habet vsitatus ordo singulis creaturarum generibus attributus But these are exhibited from God far otherwise, than the accustomed maner is, whiche is giuen to all kind of creatures. For not bycause that water was sodaynely turned intoo wine when God would: therfore we ought not to discerne what water is in the proper order of elementes, from the singularitie and strangenesse of this heauēly worke. Take the beste of this for your purpose, yet can you not come to that you woulde, to make any certayne rule, no not in the very martyres. And so likewise touching this matter, he confesseth of him self, that it passeth his vnderstanding. Leaue therefore these vayne speculations, and content your self with that whiche God hath taught you: you are sure that Christ dooth & will heare you, when soeuer you call on him in truth and veritie: you are sure that what so euer you aske in his name,Ioh. 14. it shal be giuen you, that the Father may bée glorified: why then, rest vppon this suretie, go not a stray when you may go right: differre not your self to the night, when you may walke in the light.
After this you descend from debating the matter by scripture and reason & authorities ad factū, what thei did (as though this question betwixt vsus and you were facti, what hath bin done, and not rather as it is in déed, iuris, what of right & lawfully may and ought to be done) to whiche purpose you alleadge twoo places oute of Augustine, one out of Gregorie Nazianzene, one out of Origine, one out of Ephrem, one of Hierome, one of Chrisostom, whose dooings bicause they hauehave no ground in gods woord, neither better and more sure reasō than S. Augustine alleageth, which are not sufficient for mée to rest my conscience von:Cap. 14.15.16. De cura pro mor. ag. & yet your promises being graūted, ye conclusion is very wyde. I wishe you better to consider the case you stand in, & pardon me that I disalowe them. For this I learne by Augustine, that to speake in genere of the departed, nescire quidem mortuos quid hic agatur, That the dead can not tell what is done here, whilest it is doing, & if they know, it is after by relatiō (saith he) of thē which go frō hence vntounto them: & yet not all, but such things as they are suffered to tell, and whiche they were suffered to remember: and suche as they ought to heare, to whome they tell them, or else by the Angels whiche are here present with vsus, & at oure doings, they may heare some thing which he thinketh méete and conuenient to whom all things are subiecte. If therefore he himself teache vsus this, that they do not know or they know after, and not all, but such as are necessarie for them to knowe, and as he thinketh expedient that is master of all: If he do contrarie to his doctrine commend his prayers to thē whiche as yet heare him not, and when they shall or whither they shall at all, he knoweth not: you must giuegive me leaue to followe his doctrine, if I thinke it better than his example. His doctrine importeth some thing, his example nothing. Do as they teach you which sitte in Moses seate, but do not as they do. And thus much touching this question. God giuegive vsus eyes to sée, and hartes to vnderstande, that if you be out of the way (as you shewe your selfe to be) you may come in: If I my selfe (as I am perfectly persuaded I am not) that he will giuegive me grace to conuert. And so pray I for vsus both.