A Reply to a Pretended Christians Plea for the Church of Rome, Part 4
Of Revel. 18. 4.
TO prove the church of Rome at this day Gods true church, he alleadged Rev. 18. 4, Goe out of her my people &c. I answered, These very words are taken from Jer. 51. 45. My people goe out of the midst of her, where by My people, the Church of Babylon is not meant, but the Israelites, Gods *Jer. 50, 6.lost sheep, scattred there upon the mountaines and hills, whom †Ier. 50. 17.first the King of Ashshur had devoured, and lastly Nebuchadnerar King of Babel had broken their bones, having *Ier. 52. 13. …4.burned Jerusalem and the temple with fyre, &c. These Israelites figuring Gods ‘†Rom. 11. …. 5. 7.elect, are called out of Babylon, which God would utterly ','Ier. 51. 25.destroy &c. So from Antichrists church, which is *Rev. 18. 2. & 11. 8.Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, are Gods elect called out: an evident proof, that she is none of Gods church, whatsoever she pretendeth &c.
His replies are, questions. Very well (†Chr. plea pag. 166. sayth he:) But are not those words My people, the words of the covenant, as J sayd?
Answ. They are; but not of any covenant with Babylon: and consequently not with the church of Rome, which is Babylon at this day; Rev. 17. 5.
2. And were not that people now in Babylon, the church and people of God under his covenant?
Answ. They were Gods people, and his *Jer. 50. 6.lost sheep there: but their Common wealth & church estate was dissolved, their †2 King. 25. ….Temple and holy citie burned, (when Babylon and Bels temple in it flourished, and was garnished with the ‘*Dan. 1. 2.holy vessels stollen out of Gods temple.) The Lord had ‘†Lam. 2. vers. 2.swallowed up all the habitations of Jakob; ','vers. 5.swallowed up Jsrael, and all her pallaces; *vers. 6.destroyed his places of assemblie, caused the solemne feasts and Sabbathes to be forgotten in Sion; †vers. 7.cast off his Altar, abhorred his sanctuarie. ‘*Lam. 5. 18.Mount Sion was desolate, and the foxes walked upon it. But was Babylon, (which thus abused Gods people, and burned his Temple,) Gods church? If not, how should the Church of Rome, which now is Babylon ‘†Revel. 17. …. 6.the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, which is drunken with the blood of the Saincts: how should she be Gods church, people or Temple?
3. Had not that people also polluted the Temple of the Lord, and fallen into notorious idolatrie &c. for which they were given by the Lord into the hands of the Babylonians: and were they not stil the Lords church and people, &c.
Answ. They were, some of them, as before is shewed. And so Christians having polluted Gods temple of Christianitie, and fallen into idolatries and heresies, were given over of the Lord, some into the hands of the Turk (as Israel into the hands of Assur) some into the hands of the Pope (as Iudah into Babel.) And such Israelites as embraced the religiō of the Assyrians & Babylonians ceased to be Gods people actually, til they repented: others that resisted evil and kept the trueth, as *Dan. 1. 8. & 3. 18.Daniel and his brethren; were Gods holy people. So all in Rome and Turkie that abide in the truth refusing their abominations, are Gods holy people: the rest that have received Maometisme and Antichristianisme, are not Gods people actually; albeit many of them are Gods elect, and shal so be manifested when they come out from them. But mine opposite changeth the state of the question, turning it from Babylon it self, to Israel Gods people in Babylon; and so from the Church of Rome now Babylon, to the faithful witnesses of Christ therin; of whom none make doubt.
4. Js there not difference to be put between the people of God in Babylon, and Babylon it self? &c.
Answ. Yes; which whiles it is not held unto, we are dallied with. The controversie is about the church of Rome it self, which is Babylon: the reasons given, are for Gods people (open or secret) in that Babylon. Who seeth not the deceyt? For God hath had his people in Rome, not onelyonly when it was Antichristian, but when it was heathen: and multitudes have been killed for Christ therin, in both estates. This justifieth not, but condemneth Rome, the murderer of the Saincts.
Obj. To make this matter yet more plaine, observe Zach. 2. 6. 7. Ho, ho, come forth &c. Deliver thyself ô Sion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. This plainly sheweth that Sion is in Babylon: not mount Sion it self &c. but the people of God, that perteyned to Sion: among whom, when God set his Temple, he sayd withall, *1 King. … 13. Psalm. 132. 13. 1…I wil dwell in the midst of you: shewing that the Temple was a token of his presence among them; a band of the holy and mutual conjunction that was between God and them: whether they were bound to come for to worship God, and to bring their sacrifices.
Answ. In deed this maketh the matter more plaine. For 1. here he grāteth the Temple to have been a token of Gods presence among his people; but when so I applied it in expounding 2. Thes. 2. he resisted me, and would have it there to be the people, the church. 2. This temple the token of Gods presence and band of his communion with his people, God had forsaken. For his people synning in it by their idols, Ezek. 8. God in wrath sent destroyers upon them; Ezek. 9 But before destruction he †Ezek. 9.marked his people on the forehead, that cried out for all the abominations. Which being doen, he *vers. 5.slayed to destruction all others not marked, both old and yong, and began at his sanctuarie. Then †Ezek. 10.scattred he coales of fyre over the citie; removed *Ezek. 1… 18. 19. 11. 22. 23.his glorie (the signe of his presence) out of his Temple, and from the middest of the citie; to signifie his departure from amongst them. Then came the king of Babylon Gods *Ier. 25. 9.servant (to execute his wrath) and performed the vision, in †2 King. 25. ….burning both Temple and citie, and carying the people thence into Babylon. So Moses prophesie was fulfylled, Levit. 26. 31.—36. Then both such godly ones as had not been polluted with the abominations in Ierusalem, and had been marked of God for his; such synners also as by their afflictions were brought to repentance, and *Levit. 26. p. 41. &c. King. 8. 46. …. &c.confessed their iniquitie and the iniquitie of their fathers, and had their uncircumcised harts humbled, and turned unto him with all their hart, and with all their soule; he mercifully respected them, & remembred his covenant towards them. The rest perished in their synns, being given over in just judgment, (whiles they were in that dispersion,) to †Deut. 28.serve other goods, wood and stone: though yet by his prophets, God warned them not to doe it, Ier. 10. So the Lord set the signe of his gracious presence in the Christian church, Rev. 4. but they soon defiled it by their idolatries, & heresies, for which they were chastised, Rev. 6. Wherfore God in justice ready to bring further plagues, marketh and sealeth on the foreheads, such as were his, Rev. 7. then his judgments came forth in greater measure Rev. 8. & by a *Rev. 13.beast (or kingdom) whose chief seat should be in †Rev. 17.Babylon, that is Rome, he suffered the “Rev. 13. 7.Saincts to be overcome, and gave him power over all kinreds and tongues and nations: that such as had not vers. 8.their names written in the book of life, should worship him; and be *Rev. 14. 9. …. 11.damned for ever. In which Babylon or Popish church, the Lord hath notwithstanding his open †Rev. 11, 3. 20, 4.witnesses, that withstand their abominations unto the death: and many moe of his elect, whom he “Rev: 18. 4.calleth out in his time from that whorish church; and these are the people of God, that perteyn to mount Sion: and wil no more justifie the state of the church of Rome at this day, then Gods lost sheep of Israel, justified Babylon of old.
Obj. Note here, 1. That the people of God pollute his temple, become apostates and idolaters, and are captived in Babylon.
Answ. But note withall, that they have their temple of God, and holy citie, consumed with fyre; and are caried out of their holy land, into an other synfull nation, as before is shewed.
2. That thus now Sion is in Babylon, and consequently the Temple of God (so to speak) the people of G. the church of G. is in Babylon.
Ans. So to speak! But the speech is unproper, and God no where speaketh so. The visible Temple was burnt; and they had none with them in Babylon, but Bels temple, none of the Lords. The lost sheep, the people of God perteyning to mount Sion, (as whileere he sayd) were in Babylon. And for his figurative applying of the Temple here, to the people or church; it is amyss: it should be applyed to God himself. For so the Lord sayth by the Prophet, though I have scattred them among the countries, yet wil J be to them as a little Sanctuarie, in the countries where they shal come, Ezek. 11. 16. So the Lord, not the people, was the Sanctuarie or temple in Babylon.
3. Stil they are acknowledged of God, to be Sion, his people &c, though in Babylon.
Answ. So I alwayes and stil acknowledge God to have his people in Babylon the church of Rome. But it should be proved (if it were possible) that Babylon is Sion; or the church of Rome, to be the church of God.
4. The Lord calleth them from thence by diverse prophets &c. 5. Being so called, they did not all come togither at once &c.
Answ. These things are true: and so for the Lords calling of his people out of Babylon now. But it is not yet concluded, (not ever wilbe soundly) that the Babylonians are Gods people; except the elect, which belong to mount Sion, though-actually in Babylon.
Obj. There wilbe of Gods people yet called from thence, even then when this Babylon (the citie of Rome) shalbe burnt with fyre, and cast down, never to rise any more. Rev. 18. 4. 8. &c.
Answ. This conclusion is partly true, and partly implieth error. It is true, that there shalbe of Gods people called out of Babylon, til she be utterly cast down. But the errour implied is, that he maketh Babylon the citie (not the church) of Rome: and seemeth also to restreyn it to the citie properly, and to the burning of the material citie and houses therof. Wheras this Babylon, is the †Rev. 17. 1. 5.great Whore, who though her cheif …ear is in Rome, yet her ecclesta…ical jurisdiction reacheth over “Rev. 11. 8. 9.peoples, and kinreds, and tongues, and nations. And when the “Rev. 11. 13.tenth part of that citie fell; it is not meant of the tenth part of the houses in Rome; but of people in that catholik church. And when God calleth his †Rev. 18.people out of Babylon: it is not meant out of Rome onelyonly, or Italic▪ but Spaine also and all other places where Poperie reigneth. Neyther is it meant in regard of civil politie, as if the subjects in Italie, Spaine and other lands, might not remaine in those comon wealthes still; but they are called out from the heresies, idolatries and extravagant jurisdiction of the Romish church. So the civil bondage of the Iewes in the old Babylon, typed the spiritual bondage of Gods people in this new Babylon, the church of Rome: and out of it are men called, not out of the civil state, or material place. For who will deny, but Christian churches may dwel in Spaine, Italie, yea and Rome it self (if the magistrates wil suffer them,) and yet not disobey this precept *Rev. 18.Come out of her my people. It is a doctrine of grace, and necessarie unto salvation to come out of the church estate of this Romish Babylon, but to understand it of the Cōmon wealths estate, and to call men out of it, were a doctrine of rebellion, contrarie to Rom. 13. 1. 1. Pet. 2. 13. 14.
Wheras I concluded, Gods covenant of grace is not therefore with her at all, for she is appointed to damnation, 2 Thes. 2. 8. 12. Rev. 18. 8.—21. but the elect that obey Gods voice calling them out of her, them hee will receive into covenant, he will be a father unto them, and they shalbe his sonns & daughters, as he hath promised. 2. Cor. 6. 17. 18. He replyeth: As if they were not already under the covenant of God, being his people: or as if they could be the Lords people and yet not be under his covenant. The Jewes knew better when they were in Babylon; and therevpon prayed, as in Esai. 63. 17. 18. 19. & 64. 7. 8. 9. Returne to the tribes of thine inheritance &c, we are thine &c. O Lord thou art our father &c.
Answ. The people of God in Rome, being his elect; are under his covenant in regard of his electiō, which was †Eph. 1. 4.before the world began: but until they be called & come out; they appear not unto men to be under the visible covenant of Gods church, whereof Paul speaketh in the place alleaged, 2 Cor. 6. That the godly Iewes in Babylon, figured Gods elect, I before shewed from Rom. 11. 4. 5. 7. and mine opposite gainsayeth it not. That God calleth the elect his people, even before they know or obey his voice, was shewed him also heretofore, when God sayd to Paul of heathenish Corinth, J have much people in this citie, Act. 18. 10. yet Paul knew not who they were, till after they beleeved by his preaching. So Christ sayd, Other sheep J have which are not of this fold, Ioh. 10. 16. speaking of the elect gentiles, whiles yet they were not sheep actually before men; but wild beasts of the wood. His comparison from Esai. 63. if it be referred to the Martyrs which the church of Rome hath imprisoned, killed, banished for the trueth: is fit, and I acknowledge them visibly under Gods covenant. But referred to them that are one with the church of Rome, in her faith and religion; it is very unfitt. For those people of God in Babylon, were in civil bondage, but in freedome of spirit, and not servants to syn: such were *Dan. 1. and 3. 18Daniel, Ananias, and other saints. But these of the Romish church & religion, are in spiritual bondage to Antichrist, and so partakers of his synns, †Rom. 6. 1. 20. 2 Pet. 2. 19.and in state of death, by mans judgement; till they obey their calling and come forth; though God knoweth them before to be his people, by election of grace. By this which hath been sayd, the wise may discerne, what weight there is in Rev. 18. to prove Babylon (the present church of Rome,) to be the church of God, because out of her, God calleth his people. And let all men take notice of the mayn ground of his errour, that he would have Babylon now, to be the civil state or material citie; when in deed it is the ecclesiastical or church. For God calleth not peoples out of their civil states, (it is a doctrine of rebellion so to interpret it, and contrary to Rom. 13:) but from their synfull ecclesiastical estate. All civil states, though governed by Popish yea or heathenish magistrates, are sanctified to Gods people, Act. 25. 10. 11. Rom. 13. 1. 2. &c. 1 Pet. 2. 13. 14. 17. they may lawfully continew under them, have the use and benefit of them: they are all of God, and none of them from the bottomless pit or of the Divil, as is the Beast the Empire of Antichrist, Rev. 17. 8. from which God calleth all his people.