A Reply to a Pretended Christians Plea for the Church of Rome, Part 7

A Reply to a Pretended Christians Plea for the Church of Rome · Part 7

p. 95Of Mr. Iunius iudgement for the church of Rome.

IN my brief answer to the things which mine opposite alleged from Mr. Iunius (whose treatise they have printed the second time:) he ††Chr. pl… p. 183. 1taxeth me for omitting many clauses in that work. But I then and still doe hold it ynough to take away the mayn grounds; which being doen, the other of lesser moment will be also found insufficient.

I shewed **Anima… pag. 68.by the scriptures, the Church of Rome now, to bee an other, and not that church which was in Pauls time: therefore no just proportion to be between them. In sted of disproving that which I shewed, he (after his manner) ††Chr. pl… pag. 188.asketh a question, Whether J think these (the Man of syn with his worshipers come in the place of the ancient true Church) be the Temple of God, the people of God, under the covenant of God, having the baptisme of God, &c. or whether there be no such there at all, though corrupted and abused?

Answ. I have often told him, and proved by Gods word, that this present church of Rome, is not Gods true Temple or people, under his covenant, having his baptisme: but a false church arisen since, vainly pretending the church covenant and baptisme of Christ. Seeing Gods word moveth them not, let it be lawfull for me to oppose mans authority to mans. D. Whitakers answering Bellarmine, **Contr. 4. An papa Antichr. quast. 5. ….sayth, This church succeedeth the Apostles indeed, but as a den of theeves (doth) the house of God, and as an harlot (doth) the faithful citie. Jt reteineth the chests and coffers wherein of old the tresure was (as Chrysostom elsewhere writeth) but hath lost the treasure it selfe. Jt is no more Bethel (the house of God) but Bethaven, that is, the house of vanitie or lies. Yea Mr. Iunius himself hath thus well written of it, ††Iun. anno on Rev. 11.Rev 11The Church of Christ is sayd to fight against the Pseudo-christian (or falsely called christian) church, over the which Antichrist ruleth. Also, when Bellarmine citeth Tertullian, marveilously praising Rome: Iunius answereth, **Animad… ad Appen… de sum pon… c. 6. not 7.Not Rome, but the Church: and not this Church, but that which then was, neerer the Apostles times, which cleaved to the truth and simplicitie of Christ. The disputer would deceive, ex elenchi ignoratione. Into the same fall acie doth mine opposite often run, in his dispute against me: and is therefore reproved by Mr. Iunius himselfe.

To the objection of Gods calling in the Church of Rome; barely affirmed without proof: I shewed from 2. Thes. 2. that the man p. 96of syn sitteth there, calling all to worship him, &c. and from Rev. 18. 4. that God calleth out of her, such as shal bee saved And from Rev. 9. that their Bishops (the ordinary meanes of calling) are fallen from heaven, and have the key of the bottomless pit, &c. which Mr. Iunius himselfe hath applied to the popish hierarchie. Mine opposite replieth, ††Chr. plea pag. 188.that I had not what to answer, but boldly deny that God is there calling as in his Church, &c. In sted of disproving, hee falleth to his wonted questioning: how then there can be salvation to any in that church, &c. Answ. It is a wearines to answer his often demands. Salvation by sundry meanes cometh to Gods elect in all false churches, and in the world. How came Rahab to faith among the Canaanites? Heb. 11. 31. Iam. 2. 25. and other Gods chosen among the heathens. It is one thing for God to call by extraordinarie means; another thing for him to call as in his church, by his ordinary ministerie, which is the thing that I deny in Rome, and they prove it not there.

The distinction between the papacie and the church of Rome; that is, the pastors and the flock of that church; is of no weight to prove the difference pretended: unlesse they were of divers faiths and religions. But when the priests teach lies, idolatries and heresies; and the people beleeve, worship and obey them, (as they doe in Rome,) they both perish together, as the scriptures witnes 2. Thess. 2. Rev. 14. 9. 10. 11.

Touching the order or rank of Apostates (to omit his trifling about his own translation of the word) he **Chr. plea pag. 190.sayth Mr. Junius speaks this not of the whole Church, but onelyonly of the papal hierarchie. Be it so: but what proof is brought for that he sayth. It is knowen to all that have understanding of their estate, that the church and people of Rome are apostate from the faith and service of Christ, as are their priests and hierarchie. What shall I need to bring proofes? Mr. Iohnson himselfe here confesseth, and ††Chr. plea pag. 120.prayeth all to take knowledge of it, that the Church of Rome, is fallen into most sinful and deep defection and Apostasie; and so is a notorious harlot and idolatress. If Mr. Iunius say otherweise, and will have the Apostasie to be in the Hierarchie onelyonly, not in the church: let them first agree between themselves, before they trouble others with their contrary pleas. Or let a third be umpier beeween them: Mr. Cartwright, who (in his second Replie to D. Whitgift, pag. 245.) sayth; J would gladly learn where the Lord hath willed us so to cast away the use of our iudgement, p. 97that when men make open profession, that they are members of the Pope, which is Antichrist; yet we must account of them as of members of Christ. Or how this is to iudge wisely, Ioh. 7. 14.

Wheras Mr. Iunius made the papacie, or papal hierarchie to be an accident growing to the Church, apoyson in the church, a pestilence, a dropsie, a gangrene in the body. I shewed these inconveniences upon their own grant, If the hierarchie be no part of the body, but an accident, a poyson, a gangrene, &c. what shal we think of al the actions of that hierarchy, their ministration of sacramēts, making of ministers, & whole church administration? They cānot possibly be the actions of the body, of the church, neither of Christ, &c. And now what is become of their true baptisme, and ordination of ministers? And how doth God cal in that Church, as before they reasoned? &c. Here mine opposite chargeth me **Chr. plea pag. 191.with trifling and cavilling, &c. as if similitudes should hold in all things.

Answ. A similitude must hold in some things, and in that for which it is alleaged; else it is vaine: to prove the hierarchie none of the Church, this instance is brought, the pestilence, dropsie, gangrene, is none of the body, but an accident. To disprove this, I shew that such accidents can doe no natural functions of the body: but the hierarchie doe the naturall functions of the body of the church of Rome, in teaching, ministring the sacraments, &c. therefore they are not accidents, but true members, yea the chiefe of that Church.

Object. The Apostate Jewes are compared to brass and iron, Jer. 6. 28. Ezek. 22. 18. Shal we now conclude against Iudah, to make a nullity of all the actions, ministration, and Churches estate?

Answ. It is a living body that doth actions, and not mettall: if a similie bee given of a living body, and of a gangrene or scab that consumes the life of that body; all in reason will see, that the body doth actions, the scab or gangrene doth none. But in a similitude from metall, there is no reason to speak of actions. But thus, the whole company is compared to a lump of metall: the godly are as pure silver, Psal. 66. 10. the wicked are as dross. Psalm. 119. 119. the fire of Gods word, and tribulation, trieth them, 1. Pet. 1, 6. 7. The Finer reserveth the pure metall, but consumeth or casteth away the drosse: thus God threatneth to doe with the Iewes, Ezek. 22. 18.—22. Here to bring in actions of a living body, is quite from the purpose; but in the other similie not. Here I would say, of drosse can be no vessell for the Finer: or, of p. 98brass, yron, and reprobate silver, the Lord maketh no choyce for vessels in his sanctuary. Of like sort are his other wrested similitudes of trees, corne, seed, &c. all which must bee fitted to their proper natures.

But vvhat answer giveth he to the poynt it self? First, he breaketh out into his charitable termes, saying, Could any Anabaptist write more Anabaptistically then thus, &c. And after sundry reproches, he replieth in Mr. Iunius name, and to my question, Can a scab or gangrene perform any action of a natural body or member? hee giveth no answer, but asketh againe, Can a body that hath a scab or gangrene, performe no actions of a natural body? I answer; yes, it can. And vvhat now will it help his cause? For though the body can doe the naturall actions of it: yet it is not possible for the scab or gangrene to doe them. Either therefore the Pope and his hierarchie must be other then accidents, gangrenes, poyson, dropsie, &c. in the church of Rome (as in deed they are the chiefe members of that Whore) or else they can performe no ecclesiasticall action. As for his usuall refuge (when all other faile) the baptisme had in Rome, we shall speak of it in due place. OnelyOnly let it here be observed, that this baptisme is there administred by such as are not of the body or Church, (by their own graunt,) but by ulcers, gangrenes, &c. And Mr. Iunius himselfe answering Bellarmine, so urgeth it; saying of the Man of Syn (the popish Hierarchie) **Animadv. …n Bellar. de Antichr. l. 3. …. 13. not. 3.he is not properly of the Temple, for the ulcer (sayth he) is not of the body, though it be in the body. So I straine not the similitude beyond the due proportion, if Mr. Iunius his owne reasoning be good.

Object. Of Himenaeus and Philetus it is sayd, their word did eat as a gangrene, 2. Tim. 2. 17. 18. would he then conclude, that the baptisme ministred by them was not true baptisme? &c.

Answ. First, it is not sayd of the men, but of their doctrine, that their word fretted as a gangrene; but Mr. Iunius maketh the very men, ulcers and gangrenes, in the body, but not of it. If the officers or members of a church teach heresie, that doctrine is as a gangrene; but the persons teaching them are truly officers or members of that church, though synfull. But in Rome, the officers are ulcers, not of the body, in his account: so his example is not fit. Secondly, if they were by the Apostle delivered to Satan, as is probable by 1 Tim. 1. 20. then they and their folowers were no true Christian church, but a synagogue of Satan, to be reckned among the p. 99Antichrists, 1 Joh. 2. 18. 19. and so could not administer true Christian baptisme, to their disciples.

Obj. Where he againe denyeth any calling to be in the church of Rome, and asketh, How God doth call in that church, let him ask it of such of his followers, as have heretofore been of the Priests and members of that church &c.

Answ. He againe wrongeth me (as too often,) saying that I deny any calling to be in that church: it never entred into my hart. I hold there is some calling in the churches of Turks and Iewes, much more, in false Christian churches. I denyed that God is there calling as in his church, which they plead for: that is, God hath not there his ordinary true ministers, but Antichrists hierarchie doth call the people from God. How be it, by some whom God raiseth up of ministers or people, his witnesses whom that church murdereth, Rev. 11. 3. 7. and by reading the scriptures and other writings, God calleth his people out of that Babylon. Witness the late Archbishop Marcus Antonius de Dominis, who **In Consil. sue Profect.testifieth, that without persuasion counsel or advise of any man of what sort so ever; he was, by reading the scriptures and Fathers, drawen to mislike and forsake that Roman church. And thus among Turks, Iewes, heathens, I doubt not but God calleth some from them by the light of his word and spirit. Yea not onelyonly in the church of Rome, but by it and the ministerie of it, God calleth his elect: for as the Apostles doctrine in the true church, was to the reprobates the savour ††2 Cor. 2. 1….2 Cor 2:1of death unto death, which yet is no condemnation of the true church or ministerie therof: so some groundes of Christianitie, & doctrines in the false church, (by the false ministery, erected to destroy mens soules with heresies and idolatrie;) God, of his wisdom and goodnes, causeth them to turne unto the conversion and salvation of his chosen; which yet is no justification eyther of that church or ministerie. Let this answer once suffice, to all his repetitions. And to Mr. Iunius (on whom he so relyeth) I could oppose Mr. Calvin (man for man) who sayth, We see the horrible confusion that is in Poperie: but yet there is not any doctrine to pluck men back to God: nay rather the doctrine which is there, doth draw them quite and clean from him. And we see that the Divil hath gotten such sooting there, that all is full of trumperie and illusions, and the loving God is quite forsaken. Sermon 31. on Deut 5. 7.

Obj. **Chr. plea p. 195.What difference Mr. Junius observed between the ministerie simply p. 100considered, and the hierarchie growen in that church upon it, himself could best have shewed. This here is evident, that in one respect he acknowledgeth the hierarchie to be an order or estate of apostasie in the church, an accident &c. in an other respect, he esteemeth the ministery of Gods holy things to be there, though exceedingly corrupted.

Ans. By such differences and distinctions mine opposite would cary us from the trueth, that I say not from common reason. For he granteth the church it self, the people, to be exceedingly corrupted, with most synfull and deep defection and apostasie▪ yet in another respect to be the temple, the people of God. Now we have the like for the Bishops and Priests, in one respect an order of apostasie, in an other, Gods ministerie. Wherfore then have we been led about with distinctions, of the ministerie or hierarchie, from the church, the one to be the Man of syn, the son of perdition, the other to be the Temple of God? The plaine way should have been thus, The Ministers and people of Rome, are in one respect an apostatical church, in an other a faithfull church; in one respect the synagogue of Satan; in an other, the Temple of God. But eyther my judgment faileth me, or Mr. Iunius driveth at an other matter; let men of understanding minde his writing.

Further I answer, by like distinction, we are to put difference between the Angels that synned, or synfull men, simply considered as Gods creatures, and the poyson of syn which as an accident is growen upon them: and this is true. But shall that their being Gods creatures, free them from damnation which that poyson, that accident syn hath brought upon them? No man of knowledge wil so say, Even so, the Man of syn, the Pope, hierarchie & people of the church of Rome, which are all in apostasie from the faith of Christ, and service of God; can not in that estate be judged heyres of salvation, (except God turne them againe to Christ,) for the scripture hath given sentence of their damnation, 2 Thes. 2. 3. 10. 11. 12.

Against their bare affirmations to prove Rome on Gods behalf altogether a church, a company called of God with his calling by the spirit, and the holy Scripture, &c. And, that God calleth her with his calling, by his spirit and word, &c. I objected the Apostles testimony, God shal send them strong delusion, that they should beleeve lies, 2. Thess. 2. 11. and this is verified by the manifold heresies, idolatries, wherewith the whole body of that Church is poysoned, And strong is the Lord God which wil condemne p. 101her, Rev. 18. 8. and with the spirit of his mouth he wil consume that lawless one, 2. Thess. 2. 8.

Mine opposite replieth, ††Chr. plea pag. 195.Might he not also thus conclude against Iudah in Apostasie, that God did not cal that Church, nor any in it, or by any of them in that estate, alleaging Ier. 5. 30. 31. & 6. 28. 29. 30. Ezek. 13. & 14. ch. And againe, As if there were no difference to bee put between the Temple of God, and that lawlesse one, 2. Thes. 2. 4. 8. nor between the people of God, and Babylon, Rev. 18. 4. 8. &c.

Answ. I deny not all calling of God in her, as he accuseth me; to it I have before answered. His comparison I deny. In Iudah were the Lords prophets and priests: in Rome, none but the hierarchie, which they say is the Man of syn, no members but ulcers in the body. Let them shew me a Ieremie or Zephanie now in Rome, or a lawfull ministery of God therein; as was in Iudah, till the captivity, reckned by the holy Ghost, 1. Chron. 6. 3.—15. Let them shew me a company that abstaineth from, and crieth out against their abominations in Rome, as was in Iudah and Ierusalem, Ezek. 9. 4. or a basket of good figgs, which God acknowledged for his people, Ier. 24. 2. 5. 6. Finally, they still plead for Rome, by the name of Ierusalem; when the holy Ghost calleth it Babylon; Rev. 17. & 18. chap. Such calling as was out of Babylon, I grant unto them. As for the Temple of God, I have before answered their plea from the same.

They pleaded the publick record of holy mariage, the scripture, and the ministerie, &c. I answered, the scripture sheweth no such mariage, but doth defie her as an harlot, Rev. 17. 1. Where is the record that Christ was ever maried to the Beast that came up from the bottomless pit, Rev. 17. 8. If her having the book of holy scripture in an unknown tongue, wickedly abused to maintain her whoredomes and abhominations, and subjected to the interpretation of her **So called, Extrav. in Ioan. 22. c. cum inter in glossa.Lord God the Pope, bee a record of that holy mariage: the Iewes, which have Moses and the Prophets read and expounded in their mother tongue, have better records, &c.

Mine opposite sayth, The Scripture sheweth record of the mariage of that church, Rom. 1. 7. 8. & 7. 4. & 16. 19.

Answ. It is denyed: for this is not that church, but an other harlot arisen since, falsly boasting to be the same. 2. That church consisted of officers and people, all joyntly maried to Christ, Rom. 12. if this record will serve now for the people of Rome, it will serve also for the Bishop and ministerie of Rome, (the hierarchie) which p. 102they confesse to be the Man of syn, 2. Thes. 2. the great Antichrist▪ so then the Scripture sheweth belike, that Christ and Antichrist have been maried together. And seeing the mariage of Christ with his Church, is by faith, Hos. 2. …0▪ and the Pope hath still the same faith that the people hath, his mariage standeth as well as theirs. 3. The Scripture sheweth like mariage with the churches of Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonica, and many other; which have revolted to Mahomet, as Rome hath to the Man of syn: so then we must account those Churches still maried unto Christ, by the same record. But they will deny those churches to continue the mariage; so doe I this. Besides, if he had considered the scripture, Rev. 19 7. 8. he might have seen a new mariage between Christ and his Church: which needed not have been, if the former mariage had continued undissolved, as he supposeth.

Object. Neither is it any thing that he sayth, God doth defie her as an harlot, Rev. 17. 1. For (besides that he putteth no difference between Babylon and the Church or Temple of God) what wil he say to Jsrael, yea to Judah also and Ierusalem: thinks he not that God defied them also as harlots? Ier. 3. 8. 11. with Esai. 1. 21. &c. yet the scripture shewes record of …hew mariage with God, Exod. 19. 4. 5. 6.. & Ezek. 16. 8. &c.

Answ. What difference hee would make between the Whore of Babylon, Rev. 17. and the Church of Rome whom himselfe proclaimeth to be ††Chr. plea pag. 120.a notorious harlot and idolatress, I cannot comprehend. Some that are dazeled, may think one thing to be two or three: I find in Rev. 17. but one notorious harlot Babylon; if they grant that she was never maried to Christ, it is all that I desire. That Israel (the twelve tribes) was maried to Christ, and after ten of them became an harlot, and **Ier. 3. 8.Jer 3:8was divorced, I grant: and so her adulterous sister Iudah▪ afterward. The same I acknowledge for the churches of Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, &c. But since they were divorced from Christ, and maried to Mahomet, and Antichrist; there remaineth no more record of their former mariage; ill they returne again to the Lord, out of Babylon unto Ierusalem the holy citie, which is prepared as a Bride, adorned for her husband, Rev. 21. 2.

Of my next words, mine opposite maketh a wonderment. But it exceedeth all (sayth ††Chr. plea pag. 196he) that he blusheth not to aske, where is the record that Christ was ever maried to the beast that came up from the bottomless pit? Rev. 17. 8. To the beast! That Christ was ever maried to the p. 103Beast! Did Mr. Junius ever say so? Or thinks he that ever it entred into his thought? Did not Mr. Junius speak expresly of the Church? Wil this man never learne to put difference between the Beast and the Church? between the Man of syn and the Temple of God? &c.

Answ. It seemeth that his wonder made him to forget himselfe. Sayd he not even now, it was evident that Mr. Iunius in one respect acknowledged the Hierarchy to be an order or estate of apostasie in the Church; and in another respect he esteemed the ministery of Gods holy things to be there? So then, though the Hierarchy onelyonly be the Beast (as mine opposite thinketh) and though in respect of the Apostasie it is not maried to Christ, yet in respect as it is Gods ministerie, though corrupted, it is maried to Christ. But behold how their doctrines are admirable to themselves. The ministers of the Church of Rome, are of the same religion, faith and holines with the people: the people hee will have to bee still maried to Christ; but the ministers in no weise; he cannot endure to heare of it; especially when it cometh under the scripture names of the Man of syn, or the Beast. And where he asketh if I wil never learn to put difference between the Beast and the Church, &c. I doe put difference, though not so great as he would have me: for the Beast, and the whore that rideth him, Rev. 17. though they differ, yet are they so neerly conjoyned, that if one be maried to Christ, the other is also. But why doth he not teach from the scriptures what the Beast signifieth? I have learned from the Prophet Daniel, that a Beast, meaneth a Kingdom, Dan. 7. 23. and a kingdom by light of reason consisteth of King and subjects, of governours and people; and Mr. Iunius himselfe telleth us so, saying, **Animadv in Bellar. d… eccles militante, l. 3 c. 13. not 7.A kingdom is a multitude of men gathered under one King. As the Christian kingdom therefore consisteth of Christ, his ministers, and people: so doth the Antichristian, of Antichrist, his ministers and people. This Beast hath seven heads and ten hornes, Rev. 17. 3. the ten hornes are sayd to be ten Kings, v. …2. (as in Dan. 7. 24. the ten hornes out of that kingdom, are ten kings:) these kings are none of the hierarchy: wherefore the whole body of this beast conteineth more then the Pope and his hierarchy. The Lamb against whom the Beast with his hornes fighteth, Rev. 17. 14. Mr. Iunius ††Annot. on Rev. 17. 14.Rev 17:14expoundeth to be Christ and his Church: why may not we by like reason expound the Beast to bee Antichrist and his Church? Finally, the Beast (sayth† In. annot. on Rev. 11. 7 & 17. ….Rev 11:7Rev 11:17 Mr. Iunius * himselfe) is the Romane Empire, made long agoe of civill▪ p. 104Ecclesiastical, the chief head whereof hee maketh the Pope to be… ▪ And the Beast of Rome (sayth ††Annot. on Rev. 13. 12.Rev 13:12he) of a civil Empire, is made an ecclesiastical Hierarchie. The Whore he expoundeth ““In Annot. …n Rev. 17. 4▪Rev 17:4to be the spiritual Babylon, which is Rome: so then, by mine opposites plea, neither did Mr. Iunius say, neither ever entred into his thought, that the ecclesiastical Roman Empire since the Pope was head of it, or the hierarchy, was ever married unto Christ. As for the Whore, the Church which rideth this Beast, he calleth it the **…n Annot. …n Rev. 11. 1Rev 11:1False-Christian Church over which Antichrist ruleth, and Antichrists Church: (which title mine opposite will not beare at my hand:) and that Antichristian Church which the Angel biddeth cast out, and measure it not, in Rev. 11. 12. Mr. Iunius explaineth thus, ††Annot. i-…idem.As if he should say, it belongeth nothing to thee to judge those which are without, 1. Cor. 5. 12. which be innumerable; look unto those of the houshold onelyonly, or unto the house of the living God. Notwithstanding all this, Mr. Iohnson would needs measure it for the true Church, House, and Temple of God: so well doe Mr. Iunius and he accord together.

To a testimony which I alleaged out of D. Fulk, concerning the miserable blindnesse of people in Popery, (of which mine opposite sayth, he might have been better aduised,) hee to requi…e me, as he thinketh, **Chr. plea …ag. 197.alleageth a speech of Mr. Broughtons, who sayth, Millions of millions of Romes clients are saved: Brought. on Rev. 13. 18. p. 203.

Answ. Would he be content that Mr. Broughton should decide our controversie touching the Church of Rome? Thus then sayth that author in the same book; ††Brough. on Rev. 8. p. 79.Rev 8The Popes clients are the taile of the great Dragon. **Ibid. p. 96. 97.Thence (from Rome) was the Rebellion to arise, Man of syn, Apollyon, &c. to set up, or depose states; and to have a people of his own frame; and to burne the true Temple of God. ““pag. 159.The Popes power, driveth the Church, not to be seen for certaine hundreds of yeares. (The Pope ††pag. 240.) wresteth al that is spoken of the true Church, into protection for his synagogue of Satan. **pag. 254.Rome passeth al the enemies of the Church, in cruelty and idolatry. Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezar were never so hardened. The prophane Caesars did not so strictly hinder all use of Religion. Rome ““pag. 229.hath farr passed the old Babel in idolatry. The Pope ††pag. 258.followeth al heathen superstition, in name, staffe, apparel of Caesars, and Temples; setting but a face of Christianity upon them. **pag. 247.All their doctrine is such, that their Temples, Masse, and dayly profession in al things, is from the unclean spirit: ““pag. 308.and their whole policie is a lye. ††p. 3…. arg. on c. 11.The Beast which is ascended out of Abyssos, that is, al his eorporations, millions of p. 105millions, alpapists, goe from their Abyssos of black ignorance, unto Abyssos Luk. 8. whither the Divils shal come in their time to be tormented for ever & ever. These & sundry the like cōmendations doth the author alleaged give of the church of Rome, which mine opposite pleadeth for: and taking hold of a phrase, wresteth it for his purpose, from the mans meaning; who seemeth not to speak of the popish church, but of the ancient Christian; for these are **Pag. 203▪there Mr. Broughtons words. And for Julius the captaine, who was so careful for S. Paul, that for his sake the li…e of the prisoners▪ were spared, Act. 27. God would not record this, but to save millions of millions of Romes clients for S. Paul: but for the unthankeful to S. Paul, and forgers that Peter was at Rome, who never came neere it; he stil reserved Pilats holiness, that Popes selfe-murder should be the reward. Was not here a testimony well alleaged? So in other places of his book, he quoteth Mr. Brightman, and others; whose writings directly cross that which he pleadeth for in many things; as they that read the authors may see; and anone I will set downe their sayings. No marvell then if hee wrest my words; as where next he sayth, ††Chr. plea pag. 197.that that which the Apostle speaketh of the Man of sin, and of them that perish, because they receive not the love of the truth, &c. 2. Thess. 2. 9. J apply (for exclusion from pardon and certain condemnation) to the whole Church of Rome, and so to all the members thereof, and that for all ages that either have been, are, or shalbe, ever since the Man of syn was seated there.

Answ. I sayd no more but thus. God (if it were granted that he is the husband of this whore) hath promised her no pardon, but delivered her to Satan, to be seduced, deluded, damned, 2. Thes. 2. 9. 11. 12. I speak not here of those in Rome that have withstood her whoordoms, which have been many; nor of those, to whom at last God hath given repentance unto life, which I hope are moe; nor of other his elect: but of the whore in generall, whose damnation is shewed in Rev. 17. and 18. yea th'Apostle speaketh more particularly, **2. Thes. 2▪ 12.2 Thess 2:12That they all might be damned, who beleeve not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Behold how hee sayth, they all: which some evill minded man might urge against the Apostle, as mine opposite doth against me. But wise men know that the promises of life to the true Church pertain not to the reprobates that are in it: so the threatnings of death to the false Church, take not hold on Gods elect which are therein.

Object. Jf this harlot the Church of Rome, was never Christs spouse, p. 106otherwise then all the world was by our first parents Adam and Noe: how then hath she broken the covenant of wedlock if she never were in it? how can she be called a whore in respect of Christ, any more then the heathens, that never knew God in Christ? How can she be sayd to be in Apostasie? &c.

Answ. Of the state of the Gentiles I have spoken before; and proved them to have been all in the covenant of grace in Christ: from Gen. 9. 9. &c. But they generally fell from God to idolatry, (which is whoredom) and apostasie: and were in time rejected of God: who renewed his covenant with one small nation of the Iewes, and yet saved his elect among the Gentiles also. So the Christian Churches planted by the Apostles, soon fell from God, and in time were rejected of God; some given over to Mohometisme, some to poperie. Yet God hath preserved his litle Church, fled into the wildernesse, Rev. 12. and saved his elect also in false Churches. I compare these not with the Gentiles at this day, but with the Gentiles before Christs comming, whiles sacrificing was lawfull; as I am taught of God, Rev. 11. and 17. and 18. with the old Babylonians & Aegyptians. In those times Tyrus was an harlot, Esa. 23. 16. Niniveh was an harlot, Nahum. 3. 4. and so other nations then by like equitie were harlots: and Rome likewise at this day. Who knoweth not, that a woman which is divorced from her husband, (as Israel was **Ier. 3.Jer 3from God,) for whordome, and followeth that trade still; may still be called a harlot? I deny not, but in a large kind of speech, Rome at this day, may be sayd to have been once maried to Christ, in respect of the Christian church that once was there: but so all the Gentiles were in respect of the covenant with Noe. Neither doubt I to say, that the Iewes even now do goe a whoring from their God; for ††Deut. 32.Deut 32Moses and the prophets so speake of them, yet actually there is now no covenant between God and them. The out-cries which he maketh unto the Anabaptists to hearken, and to the Reformed Churches to hang downe their heads, &c. I omit, as the gall of bitternes which ran too fast out of his pen.

To prove them the same Church which was in Pauls time, hee **Chr. plea …g. 198.citeth Moses prophesies of Israel, Deut. 32. which were the same people & their seed: wheras he should rather have looked on, 2. King. 17. 24.—34. and compared these with the men of Babylon, Cuthah, &c. that came and possessed the Lords land, and received some part of Israels religion with their owne old idolatrie: p. 107for so I ††Anima… p. 102. 103shewed the present estate of this Popish church. And the example of other churches that were in Corinth, Ephesus looked upon at this day, will confirme it.

About my answer for the godly fathers of the Iewes, and wicked fathers of these Antichristians, which the holy Ghost maketh to be Gentiles, Sodomites Egyptians &c. Rev. 11. 2. 8. 18. he sayth **Chr. plea pag. 199.If J mean this of the citie of Rome, J speak not to the point: if of the church of Rome; then he objecteth Ezek. 16. 3. thy father was an Amorite &c.

Answ. His distinction between the citie and church of Rome, serveth him in no sted. It was true in Pauls time, when the citie was heathen, and a Christian church in it. But now the city is Christian Rome, the Empire is an ecclesiastical empire, as I shewed before from Mr. Iunius own grant.

The Amorites were not those fathers for whose sake the Iewes are loved: but Abraham Isaak and lakob, out of whose loynes the Iewes naturally came. But this church of Rome now, is not the child of that primitive church, eyther in nature or in grace. In place she succedeth them, and so the Mahometists in place succeed other Christian churches planted by th Apostles. And in pretence she is the same Christian church; but as Satan in pretence is an Angel of light.

But the strangers (sayth he) that came to Jsrael, in times of sinceritie or of apostasie, were of the church of Jsrael as well as the Iewes, though not of the same natural posteritie. 2 Chron. 15. 9. & 30. 25. 5. 6. 7. Lev. 16. 29. Num. 9. 14.

Answ. But the strangers that wasted Israel, and dwelt by force in their land, though they were taught how they should fear the Lord, by a Priest, yet were not that church, of whom Moses wrote: 2 King. 17. 24. 27. 28. So the Gothes, Vandals, Saracens, &c which overcame Italie Spaine &c and dwelt there, though the priest of Rome taught them his religion, are not the ancient church, of whom Paul wrote. Besides, he hath streyned things too farr: for diverse Christians are at this day apostate and become Iewes: can we say of them, as Paul doth of the natural Iewes, As touching the election, they are beloved for the Fathers, Rom. 11. 28. I understand that speech, of the Iewish nation in generall, not of particulars which perish through unbeleef; as also of the natural Iewes, (who refused the gospel for the time, and stil doe;) and not to concerne their proselytes, which they beget to their apostasie. For there is a special p. 108regard to the Iewes, because they were natural branches, though now broken off; as th'Apostle sheweth Rom. 11. 21 24.

Obj. The many changes of the Romane state, and troubles by the Gothes, Uandals, &c: these specially concerne the Romane state touching the citie & Empire &c: wheras our question is onelyonly of the church of Rome.

Answ. As the state of the Empire is changed, yet in some respect is the same, for the Beast was, and is not, and yet is, Rev. 17. 18. so is the church, and ministerie therof; it was, and is not, and yet is. A man may speak to the Bishop of Rome now, as Ezekiel did to the heathen king of Tyre, Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God, &c. Ezek. 28. 13. to weet in his predecessor Huram, which had been a proselyte in the church of Israel, 2 Chron. 2. as the Hebrewes R. D. Kimchi & Sol. Iarchi upon Ezek. 28. and some Christian writers doe expound it. So I may say to the Pope, Thou hast been a Christian Bishop, a starr in Christs right hand; because such was the Bishop of Rome in Paules time. But mine opposite himself holdeth the Pope and his hierarchie now to be the Man of syn, the son of perdition, and thought it most strange in me, that I should ask when ever Christ was maried to that Beast. Now it is as strange, that hee pleadeth for the whore of Babylon, the Antichristian church. He would exclude the hierarchie or ministerie, because of their apostasie; I also for the same doe exclude the church; for the preists and people of Rome are of one faith and religion; if the one be cut off from Christ, so is the other. It can not be denyed but they all have the mark of the Beast upon them; for to take Mr. Iunius own exposition, The marke of the beast (sayth **Annot. on Rev. 13. 16.Rev 13:16he) is their Chrisme, by which in their sacrament of Confirmation, they …oke servile unto themselves, the persons and doings of men &c. and as for the signe left by Christ, (of which Chap. 7. 3.) and the holy sacrament of Baptisme, they make void &c.

Obj. He cannot shew that ever the church of Rome, ceased to be, since it was first planted, but it hath continued stil eyther in sinceritie or apostasie even to this day. Nor can he shew that the Lord hath yet put them out of his covenant, or given thm a bill of divorse, or that they have lest off to baptise in his name.

Answ. Neyther can he shew that the Ministerie ever ceased in that church, but hath stil continued eyther in synceritie or apostasie: or that the Lord put the ministers out of his covenant, or that they have left off to baptise in Christs name. Yet he now excludeth p. 109the ministers from being Christs, he makes them Antichrist, the Beast, the Man of sin, the son of perdition, &c. and is offended that I should speak of their mariage with Christ. And Mr. Iunius maketh them accidents, ulcers, and no members of the body; as we have seen. 2. Neither can he shew that the churches of the Gentiles ceased to be after their first planting, Gen. 9. but continued still either in sincerity or apostasie, even till the Apostles time; and sacrificed still unto God, and in his name. Let him shew when old Babylon was divorced from God: and it wil as soon appeare that this new Babylon is divorced also.

Object. The Papists plead that Rome standeth not where it did on the seven hills: and the Pope sits on the other side the river, on the hil Uatic…ne, &c. Jn like sort is the answer for the church of Rome, and the changes in religion and state, &c.

Answ. Is this a fit comparison, the change of place, and the change of religion? If it be, then as a man going from England to India, is the same man still: so if hee goe from the religion in England, to the religion of the Indians, which is Paganisme, he is of the same religion that he was still. Or, to keep neerer the poynt in hand, the Bishop of Rome at this day, notwithstanding al changes of his faith and state since the Apostles time, is a true Christian Bishop still: then he is not Antichrist, the Man of syn spoken of in 2. Thess. 2. as mine opposite sayth he is.

Object. Many of those people that made the invasions, became Christians themselves, and so the Church was increased. Not to speak how the very catalogue of the Bishops of the Church of Rome giveth evidence against him. Or wil he say, that though there were Bishops of that Church, yet there was not a church whereof they were Bishops?

Answ. So, many of the Babylonians, Cuthims, &c. that invaded Israel, were taught the manner of the God of Israel, and feared the Lord, and had Priests of Israel, which sacrificed for them, 2, King. 17. …4. 25. 27. 32. 33. But what sayth the Scripture? Every one that is joyned (to Babylon) shal fall by the sword: their children also shal be dashed to peeces, &c. Esa. 13. 15. 16. And God will cut off from Babylon, name and remnant, son and nephew, Esa. 14. 22. The catalogue of Bishops (if it will doe him any pleasure) serveth for the Pope, the Man of syn, the great Antichrist, to prove him a true Christian Bishop, successor of Peter, (whom they falsely put the first in their catalogue;) Now he will not have the Hierarchy to be the church, p. 110no… of the Church, but accidents, ulcers, gangrenes, and I know not how vile: but the people the church, that turned from paganisme to the Pope, or fell with him from Christianity to popery, they are the Temple of God, the Church of Christ, in the covenant of grace. How great partialitie is this in men, to magnifie the people for their faith and religion, and to despise the Bishops and ministers, that are the chiefe teachers and maintainers of the same faith & religion, making them accidents, hang-bies, scabs, ulcers, gangrenes, and all that bad is. So his questions of the time when the Church ceased, are answered with the like, when the ministery ceased? Let the yeare be named when the true Christian ministery was abolished out of the church of Rome, and Antichrist the Man of syn come in the place: & I will answer, in the same year, the people that were fallen with him to the same idolatries, heresies, and to worship him as God in the Temple of God; ceased to bee the true Christian Church, and became a synagogue of Antichrist.

Object. His esteeming of the state of the church of Rome in apostasie▪ to be but as the state of the Is…elites, Edomites, and as Adonisedek with his Amorites and Jebusites in Jerusalem, is disproved and contradicted by himselfe, when he maketh them like Jsrael and Iudah in their apostasie, Animadv. p. 84.

Answ. It is not contradicted by my selfe, neither can it be disproved by any. For my selfe, my words (in the place which hee quoteth) are these. She (the Church of Rome) fell into apostasie soon after Pauls time, for then the ††Thes. 2. 7▪mystery of iniquity did work, & **Ioh. 2. 18▪John 2:18many Antichrists were gone out whiles the Apostles lived. For which their apostasie (like Jsraels) when they would not repent (as Christ ““Rev. 2. ….Rev 2threatned some that were new fallen into such sins) the candlestick (the Church) was removed; the Church of Rome, as Paul ††Rom. 11. 21. 22.Rom 11:21Rom 11:22forewarned, for unbelief was cut off among others; and for a punishment of their apostasie, God▪ delivered the East Churches into the hands of Mahomet, and the West Churches into the hands of that false horned Beast, Antichrist: even as Israel and Judah of old for their like syns, were delivered into the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians.

By which I shew, that as the Christians that fell to Mahometisme, ceased to be Gods true Churches: so they likewise that fell to Antichristianisme. He could not deny the first, nor disprove the latter: for Paul sayth of the Antichristians, God shal send them strong p. 111delusion, that they should beleeve a lie; that they all might be damned, &c. …. Thess. 2. 11. 12. For the Ismaelites and Edomites, they were Abrahams naturall seed: so can no man prove the Church of Rome at this day, or any one in it, to be the naturall seed of the Christians of Rome in Pauls time. The Ismaelites and Edomites were fallen from Abrahams faith: the Church of Rome at this day is much more fallen from the Apostles faith taught to the church of Rome by him. Whosoever will bring them both to the triall, it will soon appeare; but this triall mine opposite every where shunneth. Melchisedek was king of Ierusalem in Abrahams time, Gen. 14. and then none doubteth▪ but there was a true church. Adonisedek was king of Ierusalem in Iosuahs time, Ios. 10. both kings, both of the same citie; by name, the one King of justice, the other Lord of justice, as pretending to be the successor of Melchisedek; and not more departed from his faith, then the Pope is from Pauls.

Obj. Mr. Junius knew that there dwel Jewes in Rome, who are not of the Church; and that the natural posterity of the Saints, may become Jewes, Turkes, Pagans; and sayth, the church may at length cease to be a church, when God ceaseth to call it back, and takes away the evidence of their holy mariage, that is, the holy Scripture out of the hand of the adulteresse.

Answ. So Mr. Iunius knew that there dwelt Gentiles in Israel, who were not of the Church, Deut. 14. 2…. But it is well, that neither dwelling in the place, nor being of the naturall posterity, is any sure proofe that a people continueth a church. We must then have some other proof, namely continuance in the faith of Christ; which the church of Rome doth not, but is revolted to Antichrist and his infidelity. Where he maketh Gods ceasing to cal it back a signe of the churches ceasing: first, it is barely sayd, without proofe. Secondly, it is obscure what calling back he meaneth. For take the thousand yeare after Christ, and see what calling back had Rome. Was it by her owne ministery or hierarchy? They were the Man of syn, the ulcers of the church, they called her further from God, but not back from syn. Extraordinary prophets at that time, I think there wil scarce be found any: but grant that there were; doth not God so call back the Iewes and Turks at this day? Doe not some turn to Christianity, and perswade others to turne? Doe not some suffer death among the Turkes, for the truth? Doe not some write bookes now to the Iewes in their own p. 112tongue, to call them back unto God? yet are not the Iewes therefore the church. God called back the Gentiles from their apostasie▪ by the Apostles preaching, Mark. 16. 15. and before, he sent Ionah to the Ninivites, yea Iudah and Israel he scattered among the heathens, who called them back from idolatry, as Daniel did **Dan▪ 4. 27. … ▪ 5. 18.—4.Dan 4:27Dan 4:5Dan 4:18Nebuchadnezar, and Belshazzar. And the Gentiles seated neere Canaan, had alwayes as much meanes to be called to the Lords ††Deut. 33. ….Deut 33mountaine, by the Israelites trading with them, as the church of Rome hath at this day. Besides the prophets that God raised up among the very Gentiles to call them from Idols unto God: as Sibylla, whose prophesies were famous among the heathen Greeks and Romans. But for taking the Scriptures out of the adulteresses hand: if ever church had it, Rome hath had it. For the Scriptures were in a manner buried, kept in the closets of the hierarchy, the people might not have them in their mother tongue, nor read them, on pain of death. Were the Scriptures ever so taken out of the Iewes hand? Nay they all have them, read and study them more then many Christians. And now that Bibles are printed, and so common: how is it possible the Scriptures should bee taken out of any heretikes hands, otherwise then they have been from Rome? When God gave Israel **Ier. 3.Jer 3the bill of divorce, did he take the Scriptures out of her hand? If not, (as in deed hee did not) then is not this a true rule, that an adulterous church is never divorced, nor ceaseth to be Christs church, till the Scriptures be taken out of her hands. Mr. Iunius elsewhere hath written better, when speaking of some apostate churches of Christians, as Marcionists, Ualentinians, and others, of whom Hierom sayth, They were not the Church of Christ, but the Synagogue of Antichrist: he readily ††Animadv. Bellarm.granteth it, because they denied the fundamental Articles of the doctrine of faith. The like he granteth to Irenaeus assertion, because (sayth **Eccles. …lit. l. 3. c. 4▪ … 9. Jbid. c. 5. … 10.he) he spake of heretikes and schismatikes which reteyned not the truth in the foundation thereof. Now let us compare this with the former. Did God cease to call back those heretikes and schismatikes? Were there not many learned Doctors that disputed and wrote against them: by whose meanes God still called them to repentance? Or did God take the Scriptures out of those heretikes hands: when they from them and by them pleaded for their heresies? Thus the rule which Mr. Iunius hath given us for the church of Rome, agreeth not with himself. And if those heretical churches p. 113were not Christian, but Antichristian synagogues: then is the church of Rome much more, which worshipeth the greatest Antichrist, the man of syn, and denyeth the foundation of Christian religion, beleeving as the Pope beleeveth, who either denyeth the Father and the Son, or els he is not the Antichrist, 1. Ioh. 2. 22. And that the Apostle meaneth not onelyonly of open and direct denyall, but of indirect and denying in deed when by word he professeth Christ, Mr. Iunius himselfe, D. Whitakers, Mr. Brightman and others (that have answered Bellarmines 14. chap. de Rom. Pontif. l. 3.) doe soundly prove. Now as the Pope denyeth Christ, so doth the Whore of Babylon, the Romish church, holding the same heresies and idolatries: that if the Pope bee Antichrist, then is the church of Rome an Antichristian synagogue, and not the true church of Christ.

By this also mine opposites insultation ††Chr. plea p. 202. 203.against me, as if I wrote errors and contradictions unreconcileable touching apostate churches, is taken away. For as I never denyed, but some apostate churches continued true churches, till the candlestick was removed for their impenitencie; so neither could he, nor can any truely deny, but some apostate churches are mere synagogues of Satan: as those Antichrists mentioned 1. Ioh. 2. 19. & those heretical churches whō Mr. Iunius himself denieth to be true Christian churches, because they reteyned not the foundation. And such by necessarie consequence, is the church of Rome at this day. But it it is a needlesse and wearisome labour to follow mine opposite in his tautologies and repetitions of the same things againe and againe, to inlarge his work, besides his manifold reproches.

I sayd **Animadv. pag. 103.of this Romane church, It is not the woman fled into the wilderness▪ Rev. 12. 14. but another woman or citie, reigning over the King's of the earth, Rev. 17. 1. 18. &c.

What then, (sayth ††Chr. plea pag. 203▪he) difference is to be put between the inward parts of the Temple, and the outward; the parts measured, and the parts unmeasured, between Gods Temple, Altar, and worshipers therein, Rev. 11. 1. and the court of the Temple given to the Gentiles, and the holy citie trode downe by them 42. moneths, v. 2. If it be not one of these, shall it therefore be none of them? Jf it be not the inward part of the Temple, wil it f…llow it is not the outward? &c.

Answ. He should have sayd, though she be not the company of worshipers of God, whom he measureth▪ yet may she be the p. 114company of Gentiles that tread downe Gods courts and city, whom he casteth out as unmeasured. But he leaveth the comparison of persons, and runneth to things, Gods ordinances which she abuseth. Of that Scripture, Rev. 11. we have spoken **Page 52, &c.before. Of these two women in Rev. 12. and 17. the Scriptures are so plaine, that none of good understanding can mistake the one for the other; or (as this man doth) make the one a part of the other, as if both put together, should make one Temple, one woman, one Church. When the one persecuted, flieth from the Serpent or dragon, the other in the Dragons throne persecuteth, reigneth, triumpheth; abusing and treading under foot Gods ordinances which belong to the persecuted woman; as the Babylonians abused the vessels of Gods sanctuary, ††2 King. 25. Psa 79. 1.2 Kgs 25Ps 79:1burned and trode down the holy citie, the place of the womans assembly.

His question, When was the time that the woman fled into the wilderness? is nothing to the purpose. For whensoever she fled, seeing this other woman is not she; but the foolish waman which opposeth her selfe and her doctrines unto Wisedom, (as in Prov 9. 13. 14. 15. 1. 2. &c.) men should know, that the dead are with her, and her **vers. 18.guests are in the depths of hell.

He againe injurieth me, when he sayth ††Chr. plea pag. 205.I here make the church of Rome (she that now is) to be also the court of Gods Temple, and holy citie. I make her to be the company of Gentiles (like the Babylonians of old) that tread down the holy citie: and it is hee that speaketh M. Sm. language, whiles he maketh the Jewes (not the Babylonians) to be the types of these Antichristians, as we have formerly heard. And it is his continuall fallacie in reasoning, when speech is of the persons, to flie to the things and ordinances typed by those holy places: as if Ierusalem because it was alwayes the holy citie, even when it was ruined; could give holines to the prophane Gentiles, that burned and trode it down.

I savd, The heathens in their Altars, Temples, Sacrifices, had the divine things of God among them, as wel, if not better then hath the Man of Syn and his worshipers, in their sacrifice of the Mass, and other manifold id… luries.

He replieth: Why sayth he not, then hath the church of Rome in her baptisme, and other divine things of God among them, though corrupted?

Answ. Behold here againe a plaine tergiversation. I compare the sacrifices of the Gentiles with the sacrifice of the Antichristians: p. 115he shunneth this, and would have me speak of their baptisme. As if the Lords Supper were not as holy as Baptisme. But he is a frayd once to meddle with the Lords supper in Rome, (as we have seen before,) and wil have me write what he thinks good, when the reason which I bring is too hard for him. And yet he knoweth, that elswhere I speak as much of their baptisme. But thus he would here evade. So I speaking of the Man of syn (which in his own understanding is the hierarchie,) and of his worshipers, the popish multitude, he tells me Mr. Junius speaketh of the church of Rome, and distinguisheth between it, and the Man of syn with his hierarchie. As if I also did not speak of that church, when I mention the worshipers of the man of syn: which whiles he (by Mr. Iunius help,) would prove to be Christs true church in his covenant of grace, contrary to th'Apostle who sheweth them to be in the state of damnation, 2 Thes. 2. he is forced to give ground, answereth not my reason touching the Gentiles; but presently flieth to his wonted shelter, of Judah and Jsrael Not regarding the instruction of the holy Ghost, who throughout the book of Revelation, mentioneth not the Israelites, but as the sealed of God, and kept from Antichrists abominations, Rev. 7. and for the Popish multitude, they are called Gentiles, Sodom, Egypt, Babylon. Rev. 11. & 17. with which when mine opposite is pressed, he flieth to Iudah and Israel for an answer; as we every where have seen.

For the Church of Rome to be the Mother of Christians, feighned to be like the true Mother, sick, swollen with the dropsie &c. wherin he **Chr. plea pag. 206.chargeth me not to answer or confute Mr. Iunius; I have doen both: shewing by evidence of the scripture, Rev. 17. with Rev. 12. that she is not the true mother, Ierusalem; but the whore of Babylon, not sick onelyonly, but dead in her synns Rev. 20. 5. with Ephes. 2. 1. And Mr. Iunius himself ††In his annot. on Rev. 11.Rev 11calleth her, the Pseudo christian (or falsly-named Christian) church.

Mine opposite, (after that he hath againe according to his wont fled to Iudah and Israel,) ““Chr. plea pag. 207.replieth to Rev. 20. And first, He referreth us to his answer unto the like spoken before of Israel.

Answ. There he laboured to prove it not death in syn, but death civilly, by overthrow of their estate. But that (say I) though it were true of Israel, cannot be the meaning here: for this speaketh of their estate, whiles Antichrist the Beast and his kingdom liveth reigneth and triumpheth, killing the saincts, Rev. 20. 4. 5. so p. 116that he and his church is not dead civilly, that is, his kingdom …, not overthrowen all this while. Secondly God speaketh here of such a death, as is opposed to the first resurrection, vers. 5. but the first resurrection is from syn, Coloss. 2. 13. & 3. 1. and it is here sayd to be such, as they that have part therin, the second death hath no power on such, Rev. 20 6. but if it be but a rising from civil death, or destruction of an outward state, they should not by it be freed from the second death, which is due to such onelyonly as rise not from death of syn. So this his answer is impertinent. Besides, even Mr. Iunius himself **Annot. on Rev. 20. 5.Rev 20:5expoundeth it of them that lye dead in syn.

2. Jf this death (sayth he) be, as some think, the apostasie spoken of 2. Thes. 2. 3. we must then remember withall, that this apostasie is in the Temple of God, vers. 4. like as there was apostasie in Iudah and Jsrael heretofore: and that difference is to be put between Gods Temple and the apostasie it self. &c.

Answ. I have shewed, that this death (Mr. Iunius also assenting) must needs here be understood of death in syn, or in Apostasie, if so he wil have it named. Wheras after his manner he compareth it with th'Apostasie of Iudah and Israel, the holy Ghost (as we have heard) compareth it with Babylon, Rev. 17. But if he grant the apostasie in Israel, was death in syn, it wil help him nothing: for what people soever is dead in syn, they are not actually Gods visible church, til they be ††Rom. 8. 8. - 11.Rom 8:8–11raysed in Christ. I grant him a difference between Gods Temple and the Apostasie: for if by the Temple he mean the people of God free from apostasie, such in deed are not dead: but the people of Rome now are in apostasie, and have been long; and by the sentence of God, are dead in syn and apostasie▪ therfore they are not those ““1 Pet. 2. 4. 5.1 Pet 2:41 Pet 2:5living stones, built up to a spiritual house (on Christ the living stone) an holy Priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifice: and **Ephes. 2. 21. 22.Eph 2:21Eph 2:22for an habitation of God through the spirit: but they are dead stones built upon Antichrist.

3. Moreover (sayth he) the dead here spoken of, live againe, and reig… with Christ after the finishing of 1000. yeares, Rev. 20. 5. whereas he speaketh of the Church of Rome, as being long since damned and dead for ever: so this Scripture will be found to be against himselfe.

Answ. The words of the Scripture are these, But the rest of the dead lived not againe, until the thousand yeares were finished: this is the first resurrection, Rev. 20. 5. How maketh this against me? Doth it not shew they were dead, the 1000. yeares of the Beasts reigne? yet he p. 117would have them not dead, but sick and diseased. And how notoriously doth he wrong me, as if I made the church of Rome damned and dead for ever, that is, as if there could be no merciemercy shewed to the papists, for repentance and turning to the Lord. They are onelyonly the reprobate multitude which are damned and dead for ever. Many of that church, yea even of the hierarchie, (whom my opposite holdeth to bee the Man of syn, the son of perdition) being dead in their sins, God hath in merciemercy revived and raised with Christ, as he did in the churches of the Gentiles, Eph. 2, 1… Coloss. 2. …. But such as are not raised from the death of Antichrist, and quickned by Christ, they perish for ever. And wee speake of that Church now remaining in her synfull death: unto which so continuing, no salvation is promised, but assured destruction threatned, 2. Thes. 2. Rev. 14. 9. 10. 11. Thus we see how notwithstanding all his turning and winding, and backing his errour with learned mens names, these ††Rev. 11. …Rev 11Gentiles the church of Antichrist, and worshipers of the Man of syn, are by the sentence of God dead in sins, as were the **Ephes. 2▪Eph 2Gentiles before Christ gave them life. That such of them as the Lord shall in merciemercy raise up out of the grave of poperie▪ shall escape the second death: the rest, doe remain under Gods wrath, dead in syn, and shall die in torment.

In the end, to that which I shewed of that whores death otherweise, and of her burning with fire, Rev. 18. 7. 8, and of the joy which the heavenly multitude shal have at her destruction, Rev. 18. 20. & 1…. 1. 2. 3. mine opposite seemeth to assent▪ referring it to the Citie, resembled (as he sayth) by Babylon, and Babylons destruction that was of old, Rev. 18. with Ier. 50. & 51. Thus the truth hath wrung out at last an acknowledgement from him; as the feare and light of his conscience made him acknowledge at the first. For he began with the Church of Rome thus, ††Chr. plea pag. 120acknowledging it to be fallen into most sinful and deep defection and apostasie, and so to be a notorious harlot and idolatres. This notorious harlot the holy Ghost calleth Babylon the great, the mother of horlots, and abominations of the earth, Rev. 17. 5. which is meant of the Citie Rome, v. 18. but of an ecclesiastical state, such as is in that citie at this day. And that Babylon or church it is, whole destruction is threatned in Rev. 18. and for which there shall bee ioy, and singing Alleluiah, for that God hath judged the great wh…re▪ which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and shed the bloud of his servants, Rev. 1…. 1. 2. 3. &c. For the destruction of p. 118this great whore (which in deed is no other then the Church of Rome) mine opposite ††Page. 208.sayth with me, they shalbe so farr from mourning at her funeral, as they shal rejoyce with the heavenly multitude, and sing Hallelujah, when the Lord hath given Sodoms judgement on her, and they see her smoke rise up for evermore, Rev. 19. 1. 2. 3. Of his own mouth now let him be judged; with what truth, equity, conscience, he hath pleaded for the church of Rome to bee the Temple of God; the church of God, in his covenant of grace, and to have his baptisme the seale of his covenant, even in that adulterous and most sinfull estate wherin she standeth at this day under her Pastor Antichrist, whom she honoureth and worshipeth, beleeving his lies, serving his idols, and trusting to merit heaven by the wicked works which that Man of syn hath taught her. But (that God, for a reward of his popish errour in advancing the Ministers above the church, and the pastor above his fellow ministers, gave him over to this second errour) who would have thought that a man of understanding would so bitterly have inveighted against me, for denying her to be Christs true Church; and that he would for defense of such a notorius harlot, have forsaken and written against his own former good testimony, which hee witnessed against her? Gods counsels are unsearchable▪ and let all that feare him, heare what the Spirit sayth unto us; Hearken unto me now therefore ôye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. Let not thine heart decline to her wayes, goe not astray in her paths. For shee hath east downe many wounded: yea many strong men have been slain by her. Her house is the way to hell; going down to the chambers of death. Prov. 7. 24—27.