Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 9
The IX. Chapter
NOw ſeeing that we hauehave yeelded you a full accompt of our vocation to the miniſtery: if we may be ſo bold, I thinke it is no great preſumption to demande the like of yours.aCaluin neuer thus reaſoned, & therefore you play the papiſt with him, that is you bely him. For euen as Caluin hath heretofore called vponupon vsus to hauehave vsus proue, that we are the Children of God, or otherwiſe, he would abſolutelie affirme, that God cannot be called the authour of our vocation to the miniſtery. We ſay likewiſe, that if you doe not ſhew the like of yours, you ſhal giuegive vsus leaue (although it be againſt your willes) to ſaie, that yours commeth not from God, but from the procurement of his aduerſarie.
Tertullian, bWee know hee ſpoke againſt ſuch heretiques as you Papiſts bee.who, as you know, aboue 1200 yeares agone, ſpeaking againſt ſuch as you are, in his booke de praeſcrip. haeret. doeth write theſe words. Edant origines Eccleſiarum ſuarum, euoluent ordinem Epiſcoporum ſuorum, per ſucceſsiones abinitio decurrētem. Hoc enim modo Eccleſiae Apoſtolicae curſus ſuos deferunt, ſicut Romanorum Clementem Epiſcopum à Petro ordinatum: id proinde, vtique & coeteri, exhibeant, quos ab Apoſtolis in Epiſcopalibus conſtitutos, Apoſtolico ſemine radices habeant.
cHere either is ignorance or wilfull corruptiō of this authours meaning & driſ….You ſee well, by theſe wordes, how that Tertullian doeth continue with the ſucceſſion of the Paſtours, the which he doeth affirme to be neceſſarie, ſaying: that you, and ſuch as you are, ought not to be receiued to the miniſterie of the Church, nor to teach the people, contrary to the eccleſiatical order, except that you ſhew the antiquitie of your table. And it is neceſſary (ſaieth he) that you reckon your Paſtours and Biſhops by order, & how they hauehave ſucceeded one after another: for this is the waie, that the Churches doe maintaine their right. The ſaied Tertulliā doth ground his ſimilitude vponupon the cuſtome of the Ciuil gouernance. For when that theſe that are Princes or Lords doe ſuruaie their lands, the ſubiects are bound to ſhew, what landes they holde of them, ſetting it all forth by accompt, ſhewing by what tenure they hold their copie, and whether it be demean… or free holde, comming by inheritance or bought: they ought likewiſe to name him that had it before, and by their owne title to ouerthrowe all other perſons, that maie make claime vntounto it.aNot yet, nor euer will you be able. According to this patterne and order we hauehave giuen you accompt of our inheritāce, although we were not bound to it, ſetting before your eies the ſimilitude of Salomon, by whom our Sauiour Ieſus Chriſt is repreſented. That ſame Salomon doeth giuegive the ſheepe that runnes aſtraie counſaile, to ſet his Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the Shepheards, & to follow their flocke, vntill he come to the place where Chriſt was nailed on the Croſſe at noon daies. The which counſell, as the moſt certaine (according to Tertullian his opinion) we doe follow, thinking it ſufficient, to keepe vsus firmely in the right and ancient Catholicke faith. For we that are the ſheep of Chriſt, doe follow, as touching our religion, the ſteppes that our fathers led before vsus, and, as it were, going vp vponupon the ladder of Iacob. Gen. 28. bWhatſoeuer you meane: you can neuer deduce your religion ſo high, for it hath beene a patching together long, euen till of very late daies.we mount by degree and degree, I meane, from yeare to yeare, & from age to age, vntill that we come to S. Saturim, S. Denice, S. Marcial, & S Gratian, which were thoſe that did firſt teach the Catholicke faith in Tholoſe, in Paris, and to thoſe of Guyenna and Lorayne, and ſo conſequently to all the reſt of the Saintes, that firſt did teach the Catholicke faith through all Chriſtendome, whom wee doe call in iudgement before God, to defende that faith which they hauehave giuen vsus, from hand to hand; they maie cal vponupon the Apoſtles which ſent them, & the Apoſtles maie direct themſelues to Chriſt, who by the mouth of his moſt louing Apoſtle doeth command vsus, to continue in that that was taught vsus at the beginning. 1. Iohn. 2. And ſo wee ſhall continue and reſt with the Father, the Sonne and the holie Ghoſt. And if any bodie doeth come to teach vsus anie other doctrine, then that which hath bene taught vsus at the beginning: I doe not ſaie,cNo take heede of that, for the booke of the Scriptures is your bane. writen in booke, but printed in our hearts, that he be holden as an*Galat. 1. Anathema, or an excommunicate perſon: yea, although it were an Angell of heauen. The which doeth perſwade vsus, not to receiue yourdOurs is new to you, as the doctrine of Chriſt and the Apoſtles was to the Iews in that time, that vnderſtoode not the Scriptures. new doctrine or Goſpell, but to keepe our ſelues vnderunder the gouernaunce of our olde Paſtours and Biſhops, without hauing any reſpect to their euill or good liues: for as touching our faith and ſaluation, that doeth import nothing.eThis is hardly & boldly ſaied, for any thing that you know, ſome take occaſion the rather thereby to hauehave them and ſo to be conuerted. The good and holie liues of Ieſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles, hath profited nothing, neither to the obſtinate Iewes, nor to the vnbeleeuing Gentiles:fOpen confeſſiō, would hauehave open puniſhment. Nor in the like caſe, the depraued life of manie euill Biſhops that hauehave beene at Rome, and in other places hauehave not ſhut the dores of heauen, againſt thoſe that are true Catholickes, and leade particuler liues; the which are two principall pointes that doe quiet our conſciences:gThe firſt is talke and the la…ter i… little bene ſeeing how many of you hauehave learned to be l…d… of them. I meane, the one, that we beleeue that, that our Paſtours and the vniuerſall Church hauehave beleeued theſe thouſand and fiue hundred yeares: and the other, that their euill liues cannot hurt vsus. For as the Apoſtle doeth ſay, eueryevery man ſhall beare his owne bundell.
The IX. Chapter.
NOw perſwading your ſelfe, that you hauehave yeelded vsus a ſufficient account of your miniſtrie, when as onelyonly you hauehave countenanced it with a ſhew of perſonall ſucceſſion, and a bare bragge without any proofe at all of ſucceſſion alſo in the Apoſtolique trueth (as it may appeare by that which hath beene ſayed) you call vsus to a reckoning for ours, and will vsus to ſhew, that God is the authour of it, or elſe to giuegive you leaue to ſay, it commeth from his aduerſary. We anſwere you, that our calling is of God; firſt, becauſe orderly, according to the order of the Church, wherein wee liue, wee are by them that are deputed by the Church for that buſines, tried and examined, and then with impoſition of handes, and ſpeciall prayer vntounto God, fitte for that purpoſe, admitted and ordained miniſters of his worde, and Sacramentes. Secondly, becauſe our office of the miniſtery it ſelfe is the ſame that Chriſt gaue vntounto his Church, vnderunder the names of paſtours and Doctours, whoſe office and properties are ſet downe and deſcribed. Actes. 20. 2. Corinthians. 4. 1. Timothy. 3. Titus. 1. 1. Peter. 5. And thirdly, becauſe we are able to proue by the writen word, that we feede Gods people committed vntounto vsus with that onelyonly foode, which God hath allowed for his children, and miniſter the Sacraments according to Chriſtes inſtitution. Laſtly, God himſelfe hath ſealed & ratified our miniſtery to be of him, in the effectual vocatiō & conuerſiō of many thereby. Let vsus now therfore heare duplicate page duplicate page what you can ſay, either to weaken this our aſſertion, that our calling is of God, or any of theſe reaſons, that we vſe to proue the ſame by. Firſt in Tertullians words de Praeſcrip. aduerſus haereticos, you bid vsus ſhew the beginning of our Churches, and reckon vp the ſucceſſion of biſhops down to vsus from the beginning &c. you hauehave heard that the ſame Tertullian in the very ſame place, yea euen in the words immediately following yours, addeth, Be it that heretiques deuiſe thus to doe, for what is not lawfull for them, being once fallen into blaſphemy? But though they ſhal deuiſe ſo (ſayeth he) they ſhall gaine nothing. For their doctrine compared with the Apoſtolique doctrine, by the diuerſity and contrariety thereof, will pronounce that their Churches hauehave neither Apoſtle, nor Apoſtolique man for the authour thereof. Whereof when he had giuen a reaſon, he addeth, that thoſe Churches, which cānot ſhew any Apoſtle, or Apoſtolique man to be the founder thereof, in that they were founded long after, as many are yet, in eâdem fide conſpirantes non minus Apoſtolicae de putantur pro conſanguinitate doctrinae: that is, they are no leſſe to be reputed for Apoſtolique agreeing with them in the ſame faith, euen for the affinitie therof. You thought it good to ſtop before you came to theſe words. For theſe words indeede take away all the force of ye obiectiō groū ded vponupon the former, in that hereby it is euident, that howſoeuer Tertullian in his time could ſhew the originall of the Catholique Church, by deducing it, and the doctrine therein profeſſed, euen from the Apoſtles to his time; yet hee thought it was poſſible for heretiques to make ſhew of the like ſucceſſion of perſons; but ſecondly and eſpecially, becauſe thereby it is moſt cleare, that to proue a Church to be Apoſtolick, it is not neceſſary for it alwaies to be able, to deduce ſuch a line of perſonal ſucceſſion down from the Apoſtles, but it is ſufficient to be able to make it appeare, that the doctrine thereof agreeth with the doctrine of the Apoſtles. Which vnles we be able to doe by the Scriptures (whereby we moſt cartainly may know, what their doctrine was) let not our Churches be accounted Apoſtolique. But if this we be able to doe (which we doubt not of) and yours compared and conferred with the Apoſtolique doctrine therein expreſſed, ſhall proue both diuers and contrary; then for all your fiction of ſucceſſion, we ſay vntounto you in Tertullians worde, that ſo your Churches ſhall be proued to be founded neither by Apoſtle, nor Apoſtolique man. For as the Apoſtles taught not contraries amongſt thēſelues, ſo neither did the Apoſtolique men (ſaieth he) vnleſſe it were they, that departed from the Apoſtles: and ours ſhall proue themſelues (though they were not able to deduce their Succeſſion from the Apoſtles) by their affinity of doctrine, with that of the Apoſtles, to be Apoſtolique; and ſo to hauehave their originall and beginning from Sion: and ſo alſo in the end it will fall out, that Tertullian ſpoke rather againſt ſuch as you are, thē againſt vsus. And thus you ſee Tertullian hath ſufficiently anſwered himſelfe, and alſo, hath giuen vsus weapons againſt you, & to defend our ſelues withall. You gaine euen as little by your ſimilitude taken from tenants, who to proue their title good, muſt ſhew their Land-lordes, how by ſucceſſion they came to their landes. For if all Land-lords ſhould thruſt all their tenants from their poſſeſſions, which are not able to deduce the deſcent of their tenimēts frō one to one, euen frō the firſt that held it, & purchaſed it; the 10 tenant in the world ſhould not long quietly enioy his owne. Yet you for your parts (if your bare bragge were a proofe) are ſuch tenāts to the inheritance of ye church of Chriſt, and the Catholique trueth, that you hauehave not onelyonly proued your title thereunto to be good, by ſhewing by al lineal ſucceſſion, how you came to it from Chriſt, & his Apoſtles; but thereby alſo you hauehave quite ouerthrown our claime. This is eaſily ſaied, & wel bragged of you, but it is more, then either you can or meane to proue. O yes, ſaie you, we can, as it were, going vp vponupon the ladder of Iacob mount from ſtep to ſtep, vntil in the top we come to thoſe that firſt taught the Catholique faith in Tholoſſa, Paris, and Guienna, as to S. Saturim, Denice, Martiall, and Gratian, and to the reſt of the Saints. It may be theſe were Saints, you ſpeake of (and yet you hauehave not ſhewed vsus that) yea, it may be alſo you can frō age to age, euen frō that time to ours, now, name vsus the perſons, that hauehave ſucceeded one another, from thoſe men you ſpeake of: but you ſhal neuer be able to proue, that all theſe perſons, which hauehave ſucceeded, hauehave continued in the ſound Apoſtolique faith, and ſo hauehave deriued it down frō the firſt to you that be the laſt: which vnles you proue, this climing vpō this ladder you talke of, wil doe you ſmal pleaſure. But you are ſo confidently perſwaded, that the religion, that you are in poſſeſsion of now, is the very ſame, that was taught the Church of Chriſt in the beginning, that you denounce him anathema, be hee man or angell, that preacheth againſt it. Yet this is no proofe, that it is the very ſame. For you may be deceiued: and if God would giuegive you grace to read, and rightly to vnderſtand the Scriptures, ſure I am, that euen in thus ſaying, you would finde, that you hauehave as far, as your authority reacheth, curſed and excommunicated your own ſelues, & your whole Church. So far of are we (though it pleaſe you ſtil to cal our religion a new Goſpel) from being afraid to ioine wt you in anathematizing them, that preach any other Goſpell, then Chriſt and his Apoſtles preached at the firſt, that withal our hearts we ſay Amen thereunto. And therefore for all your ſuppoſed newnes of our religion, we wiſh with all our hearts, according to Iohns counſell 1. Epiſt. 2. that that might abide which wee hauehave heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian ſaieth moſt truely, that cōmeth from the Lord, & is true, that is firſt deliuered; & that is ſtrange and falſe, which is brought in after. De praeſcrip. aduerſus haereticos. Wherfore we ſay alſo moſt willingly with him in an other place, in his 4 booke againſt Marcion: Id eſt verius, quod eſt prius: &c. That is truer, that is former: that is former, that is from the beginning: and that is from the beginning, which is from the Apoſtles. But then we conclude with him, De praeſcriptione aduerſus haereticos; Vndè autem extranei & inimici Apoſtolis haeretici, niſi ex diuerſitate doctrinae &c. How are ſtrangers and enemies to the Apoſtles knowen, but by the diuerſitie of doctrine, which eueryevery one of his owne minde, hath brough forth and receiued againſt the Apoſtles: therefore let deprauation of Scriptures, and their expoſition be accounted to bee, where the diuerſitie of doctrine is founde: hitherto Tertullian, and wee with him; and therefore doe not charge vsus any more with newneſſe, nor make your bragges anie more (to deceiue the ſimple) of antiquity, vnleſſe by the Scriptures (wherein the ſimplieſt knowe the Apoſtolique doctrine is contained indeede) you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs, and ours to diſagree. For you may not thinke, that you can cauſe them, that hauehave any witte or diſcretion at al left them, to beleeue that your doctrine is the ſame, yt was taught at the firſt by the Apoſtles, becauſe you can ſay ſo, or becauſe you can tel them, their father, grandfather, and great grandfather tooke it ſo: as long as they ſee, you are loath to come to the triall with the learned, whither it be ſo, or no, by Gods writen word. Euen herein thundering out your Anathema (though you would ſeeme therein ſtout and reſolute in your religion) yet if your words be wel marked, it may euidently be perceiued, that like a daſtard you ſhunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word. For you ſay, If any body come to teach vsus any other doctrine, then that which hath beene taught vsus at the beginning, I do not ſay, writen in booke (no, take heed o… yt but printed in our harts, let him be Anathema &c. wherby you bewray your minde, namely to be this, that when it ſhal come in trial, what that religiō is, that was preached at the beginning, you would not hauehave the Canonical books of the old and new Teſtament to determine the matter, but that which was then writen in mens hearts, whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions. But I pray you, how ſhal we know what was writen in mens hearts, by the miniſtry of the Apoſtles better, or more ſafely; then by that which they wrote? Eſpecially ſeing (as Irenaeus hath tolde vsus) that which they preached at the firſt, after by the wil of God, they committed vntounto writing, to be the foūdation, & piller of our faith: in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word (to ſpeake moſt moderately) you knowe the credit thereof is ſuſpected: and certaine it is, it muſt agree with the word writen: for God is one and ſelfeſame both in writing and ſpeaking: or els worthily may it not be ſuſpected onelyonly, but flatly alſo reiected, as a falſe and counterfait word: which but that you know it doeth not, you would without any ſuch correction or explanation of your meaning hauehave ſaied ſimply, yt you would hauehave him held Anathema, that preacheth any other doctrine, thē that wc is writen in the books of the ſcripture. But your owne conſcience telling you, yt yours was another doctrin, then had warrāt fro thēce before the curſe ſhould drop out of your pen, you thought it wiſdome (leaſt in your own knowledge you ſhould hauehave curſed you ſelues) to tel vsus that you directed your ſentence, not againſt thoſe, that teach another doctrine, then thoſe bookes wil warrāt (for of ſuch you allow well enough, or elſe you ſhould diſallowe your ſelues) but againſt thoſe that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts: ſo leauing to your ſelues liberty, to make the poore people beleeue, that that was whatſoeuer you would deuiſe.
O this is too too groſſe & paltry dealing in matters yt ſo much concerne ye ſouls of mē, as this doth, eſpecially in this ſo great light, that ſhineth now eueryevery where amongſt vsus. As for your liues, & the liues of your paſtors and great biſhops (though they be ſuch as worthily you may be aſhamed of) yet if they had continued in the profeſſion of the trueth, therein we would hauehave held (for al the other) communion wt them. But ſeing their liues hauehave bene ſuch a long time, as there were neuer worſe in Sodom, nor any where els (witnes your own ſtories Benno Cardin: Platina, Sabellicus, Abbas Vſperg: and others) but eſpecially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of moſt material points of Chriſtian religion, to the doctrine taught vsus in the Scripture (as I ſhew in diuers places of this booke) wee hauehave (as we are counſelled Apocal. 18.) ſeperated our ſelues frō you and them, leaſt by holding ſociety with you in theſe your ſinnes, we ſhould in the iuſtice of God hauehave beene driuen alſo in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues. And therefore to conclude this chapter, though you bragge, that you hauehave two things to quiet your conſciences withal, that you beleeue a doctrine, that your paſtours & the vniuerſal Church hauehave taught you 1500. years; and that their ill liues cannot hurt you: yet in deede and trueth you hauehave neither of both: for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both: & ſo you hauehave had nether the vniuerſal Church of Chriſt, but a particuler Synagogue of your own: nor any ſound or good paſtour either for life or religion, theſe 600, or 700 yeares to teach you your faith.