Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 13
The XIII. Chapter.
IF that the good doctor*Cip. 1. epiſt. c. 6. S. Cyprian had beene in theſe our daies, might he not well hauehave ſaied againſt your ſchollers, that which he did write againſt aCipriā cals him that he ſpeakes againſt Nouatianus, who was a Roman, and the diſciple of Nouatus of Africke. That Nouatus & Nouatianus were two ſeuerall perſons, it appeares in Ciprian lib. 2. ep ſt. 8. &. 9.Nouatus? there needed no other, but inſteede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius; & nomine mutato, de vobis fabula narrabitur. Seeing that the ſaied S. Ciprian doeth hold & affirme, that Nouatus ought to be accounted as no Biſhop, becauſe he ſucceeded no body, but rather that he did make himſelfe a Biſhop,bTheſe words you adde, for they are not in Ciprian. without any impoſition of hāds. Then to what purpoſe,, I praie you, are ye of the opinion, thatcThis is but your ſlader & ſaying: for both theſe were and ſo are wee able to proue that they had ſufficient warrant for their calling. Caluin & Zuinglius are ſuch faithfull miniſters, conſidering that they are as farre from prouing the confirmation of their miniſtrie, as euer was Nouatus. You will anſwere mee, that you hauehave no neede of the impoſition of hands of the Papiſts, ſuperſtitious Idolaters & infidels. But this maketh your cauſe neuer the better: for if you are ſo ſcrupulous by nature, that it goeth againſt your conſciences to come to kneele to our Biſhops, you ſhould (I ſay in tunes paſt) hauehave required your ancient miniſters to hauehave giuen you a warrant for the confirmation of your eſtate, when one doeth demande of you, ſince when your Religion began you are not content, to claime the beginning frō the Apoſtles, but rather, ſtepping hardlie forwarde, ye are not content to ſtaie at Dauid or Abraham, but you muſt needes fetch it from Abel, dYea euen from that doctrine, that God taught Adam and Eue in Paradiſe, though it grieue you.yea, from Adam. And if one ſhould ſpurre you forward, you would go, I knowe not whether. Then ſeeing that your church is ſo ancient, and that it hath indured till our daies (if we will beleeue you) it is not like to be true, that it hath beene deſtitute altogether of miniſters: for although it be ſo, that God did greatlie afflict the Iſraelites with the captiuitie of Babylon, yet did he neuer leaue them without comfort of good doctours, ſuch as Daniel, Ezechias, eWhence proue you, that they had there a pro…er then named Abdias? Or that there was then any Prop. …named Ez… chias: but it may be you would hauehave ſaied Ezechiel.Abdias, and manie others: Euen ſo you, that thinke in your owne heades, to bee the people of God, I cannot thinke (if it bee ſo) hee would ſo hauehave giuen you ouer, as to want miniſters to comfort you in your afflictions, and to ordeine your miniſterie, by the in poſition of handes:fTheſe 2. whiles they were yours, and ſo others, as Luther, Lucer, Capito, Carolſtadius, Oecolā padius and the reſt, had calling either to be prieſts, or to be ordred by your owne Biſhops, or at leaſt to be doctors of Diuinity by the vniuerſitie, wherein they were brought vp. And after theſe two were ours, the one had an ordinary calling by the preſbytery, magiſtrate and people of Geneuae the other of Zurich, and ſo had the reſt in the places where they taught. What ſtaies you, that you doe not go to them, ſeing that you hauehave nothing to doe with ours? And if you ſay, that you hauehave done ſo, doe vsus ſo much pleaſure, as to let vsus heare their nāes, & in what time they did floriſh, or otherwiſe you maie pardon vsus, if wee giuegive no credit to your fained imaginations.
The XIII. Chapter.
YOU boldly adde vntounto Cyprians wordes, theſe words, without any impoſitiō of hāds, for neither where the other words of his wt you recite are, nor yet any where in that epiſtle doeth he once mention ye ceremony of impoſition of hāds. Neither can Cyprians ſaying againſt Nouatianus (whom you cal wrongfully and ignorantly Nouatus) truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius, ſeing they had (as I hauehave read) the ordinary calling & vocation of the times, wherin they liued euen from your ſelues. For as for Caluin, his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedrall church, and a curateſhip in a towne hard by, of a Biſhop of yours, where he was borne, wc would not hauehave beene giuen him, vnles he had beene within orders, I think. And Zwinglius, it is wel knowē, was a Canō in the cathedral church of Zurich, 2. or 3. years there liuing & preaching, before he was ours. And ſo I read the other preached alſo in his cure, before he was ours: whereby it ſhould ſeeme, yt the one had impoſition of hands to holy orders (as you terme them) of ſome Biſhop of France, and the other of ſome Biſhop likewiſe of Germany. Now after, when as by force of the trueth, they grew to be of our Religion, & ſo came out of Babylon to vsus, they both were according to the order of thoſe churches where they ſerued, called orderly to the miniſtry of the Goſpell, where alſo they both ſucceeded others, that went before them. Neither of which could Nouatianus truely alleadge for himſelfe, and therefore Ciprian ſaith, that he was neither in the church nor Biſhop. But ſeeing we account our church ſo ancient, as that when we are aſked, when our Religion began, we will ſay, it hath beene euen from Adā, & alſo that euer ſince it hath endured, and continued; you ſay, it is not likely that it hath at any time beene altogether deſtitute of miniſters. For though God did afflict the Iſraelites for their ſinnes with the captiuity of Babylon, yet he did neuer leaue them without cōfort of good doctours, as Daniel, Ezechiel, Abdias, and others: & therefore ſeing we hauehave nothing to do wt yours, we either hauehave, or ſhould hauehave ſought them out, & hauehave taken impoſition of hands of them, which if we hauehave done, you wiſh vsus to tell you their names, when and where they floriſhed. To anſwer you indeede for the ſubſtance of our Religion, we ſay it is the ſame wt God himſelfe firſt taught Adā in paradiſe. For firſt, he was taught to ſerue God, not according to his owne will, but according to the law that God gaue him. Secondly, he being found a trāſgreſſour of that holy will of God, after he was brought to ſee his ſin, & the danger thereof, he is ſent for recouery by Gods promiſe, only to ye promiſed ſeede: and then is he taught, how to liue in his vocation: wherein lieth the ſum of that Religion, wc wee now teach and preach. For firſt, we teach men, how to ſerue God according to his owne reuealed wil, & not according to their owne fanſie, as you doe. Secondly, finding men many waies to decline from this rule, wee labour to make them ſee their ſins, and the danger thereof, which whē we hauehave done, we ſend thē only to Ieſus Chriſt for help and comfort. In both wt you alſo offend; firſt, whiles you keepe men frō ſeeing ye multitude and grieuouſnes of their ſinnes, by extenuating the power of original ſin, by making mā beleeue, yt the fulfilling of the law is now poſſible vntounto him, that many ſins of their owne nature, for their littlenes are veniall: and that the firſt motions of ſinne ariſing from the corruption of our owne hearts not conſented vntounto are no ſin: and then you go from this moſt ancient order of God, in that you ſend men for their recouerie not only to Ieſus Chriſt, but to their owne freewill, merits and ſatiſfaction, & to a nūber of thinges very trifling and ridiculous: by vſe and doing whereof, you would perſwade them, they ſhall purchaſe to themſelues remiſſion of their ſinnes. In the 3. point alſo, we follow the patterne of our heauenly father, calling vponupon eueryevery man according to his calling, to get his liuing in an honeſt vocation, with the ſweate of his browes; and ſhewing woman, that in lawfull wedlocke (if by nature or otherwiſe ſhe hauehave not the gift of continencie) though to her paine & ſorrow, ſhe is for the encreaſing of Gods kingdome, and the common weale, wherein ſhee liueth, to conceaue, and beare children; whereas you drawe both the one and the other herefrom, into Hermitages, Cloiſters, and Nunries, there to liue an idle life, out of all vocation profitable to the Church, or common weale. And we are perſwaded, that this Religion, and conſequently a Church to holde and embrace it hath euer ſince vntounto theſe daies continued. And we graunt you alſo, that though God for the ſinnes of his people doe afflict his Church diuers times, and that grieuouſly; as he did the Iſralites with the 70. yeares captiuity: yet then he doeth not leaue them without teachers to comfort them, and therefore in all ages and times doe conſtantly beleeue in one place or other, that this our Religiō and Church hath had ſome ſuch. Yet you muſt take this wt you, that in ſuch times of the afflictiō of the Church the ordinary ſtate of the miniſtrie thereof hath often failed. For you hauehave heard Azariah the prophet tel king Aſa, in reſpect of ſuch times as were before his time, that Iſraell a long ſeaſon had beene without the true God, without prophet to teach, and without lawe, 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hoſea you may reade prophecied, that the children of Iſraell ſhall remaine many daies without a King, without a Prince, without an offring, without an image, without an Ephod, and without Teraphim: by which wordes, the Prophet plainely foreſheweth, an interruption ſhould be of their outward ordinary viſible miniſtry. And euen in reſpect of the time that you mē tion, it appeareth in the 2. of the Im…ntat. that the like was fulfilled in the Church, in reſpect of that time of their captiuity in Babylon. For there Ieremie lamenting the ſtate of the Church then, ſaieth, The Lord hath cauſed the feaſtes and Sabbothes to be forgotten in Sion, and hath deſpiſed in the indignation of his wrath, the King and the Prieſts, the Lord hath forſaken his altar, & hath abhorred his ſanctuary. And when thoſe prophecies of the floriſhing of Antichriſt: 2. Theſ. 2. and Reuel: 17. and that of the Churches being driued into the wildernes, and there remaining for a time, Reuel. 12. ſhould be fulfilled, who ſeeth not, that it is no ſtrange thing, but a thing plainly foreſhewed, ſhould be, yt neither the church herſelfe nor her teachers ſhould be very viſible and apparent. And therefore ſpeaking of thoſe times, when indeede thoſe propheſies were verified, as you doe, you doe our church and her miniſters great & double wrong: firſt, in thus chaſing thē into the wildernes, there to ſaue themſelues from your fury: and then, yet in exacting at our handes the names of them, whom God by thus hiding of them, preſerued to continue his church. And yet (as I hauehave ſhewed you before cap. 4.) in the merciemercy of God, whē your Antichriſtiā Synagogue floriſhed moſt, in Bohemia, & other places, ye Chriſtians called Waldēſes, were many, and has diuers aſſemblies, ſchools, churches and miniſters. Why thē (ſay you) hauehave you not, or do you not, run to thē, that by thē you may hauehave your miniſters ordeined or confirmed, & if you hauehave, tell vsus their names, that did it. I anſwere you, we hauehave thought it needles, ſeeing (as I hauehave ſhewed) otherwiſe both our former & later miniſters, nearer home had both ordinatiō, & confirmation, that well enough ſerued their turnes. Beſides, I am ſure you cānot be ignorāt, but it hath ben an ordinary thing wt God, whē the ordinary miniſters of ye church, & conſequently ye outward face & coūtenance thereof hath bene corrupted, & gon frō y truth, & waies of the lord, to raiſe extraordinarily prophets and others to ſeeke & procure ye reformatiō thereof, as it appeareth by raiſing vp from time to time Prophets amongſt ye Iſraelites, in ye ruins and corruptions of his church, who ſhould hauehave had wrong offred, if they ſhould not hauehave bene receiued as the Lords miniſters, vntill either they could get ordinary admiſſion of the Prelates then, to reform whoſe corruptions they were ſēt, or vntil they could ſhew ye names of ſome other prophets, that had ordinarily ſucceeded others, & alſo ordeined them. Which is ye very caſe of the Lords faithful miniſters, whom he hath vſed firſt in any nation without the ordinary calling of the daies immediatly going before, to detect & lay opē ye horrible corruptiōs thruſt vponupon the Church by the papacy. For they foūd, that the word of God was concealed & hid frō the people, & yt inſteede thereof, they were fed wt the inuentions and traditions of men; y the honour yt was due to God alone was turned vntounto mē & vntounto images; yt ye bloud of Chriſt was ineffect trodē vnderfoot, in yt ſo many by waies were ſought to atteine to heauē by, beſides Chriſt: yt the ſacrament of his body & bloud was turned into groſſe Idolatry, & the vſe quite peruerted. To be ſhort, they found al the holy ſcripture prophaned & poiſoned wc the Popes gloſſes, & falſe interpretatiōs. Theſe things therfore being thus, & the lord reueling vntounto thē his truth, becauſe ye time was come, that Antichriſt muſt be detected, ye lord gaue vntounto thē the ſpirit of courage and boldnes, firſt to notifie theſe corruptions to the Prelates of your church, and to craue at their hāds the reformation thereof: but finding that that would not be, becauſe ſathā will not be againſt himſelfe. Ma. 12. what were they to do els, but according to yt ye God gaue thē, and the places they had in vniuerſities & in ye church, to proceede to call the people yet frō thoſe errors to the truth. When fire ſhal take hold of a city, or the enimy ſcale the wal in the night, if ye leaſt burgeſſe ſhall giuegive an alarū, yea if it be but a ſtrāger (the watchmā ſleeping yt ſhould giuegive warning) no mā would ſtād trifling in demanding by what title he did it, but ſtreight he will run to the water and to ye wals, and laie to his hands to preuēt the miſchiefe, & thanke him yt gaue the warning. And yet whē ye mē, we ſpeake of, giuegive notice of a greater danger, though it be as neceſſary to liſten vntounto them, & to be warned by them, as the ſaluation of mens ſoules is: yet they cānot finde this wiſdome and thankfulnes in men. It ſhould ſeeme by your ſtanding thus preciſely vponupon the neceſſity of viſible ſucceſſion, & ordinary impoſitiō of hāds in thē, ye god ſhal ſend to teach men, or els they may not be heard: yt either you hauehave not red, or els yt you greatly diſſē ble your knowlege, that God hath vſed ye miniſtry of diuers perſōs, yt hauehave wanted thoſe, to cōuert nations, to lay the foūdatiō of churches, & to doe very much good. For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hiſt. 1. booke, and c. 10. & Theodoret in his 1. book, c. 23. report, that a captiue maiden did firſt kindle ye light of ye Goſpell amongſt the Iberiās: who being ye meanes firſt to cōuert the Queene, the Queene cōuerted the King, & he wtout any orders (as you call them) taught his people ye Chriſtian faith & ſo begā the church there. It is alſo writē by Ruff. lib. 1•. c. 9. by Theodoret, in the 22. c. of his ſaied booke, by Nicep in his 8. book, c. 35, that AEdeſius and Frumentius brought thither being …yes, by Meropius a philoſoper, and there taken and preſerued aliue when he and the reſt of his company were ſlain, growing after into good credit and authority there, were the firſt means of the ſowing of ye ſeede of the Goſpell amongſt the Barbarians in the further India, to the profeſſion and exerciſes whereof, eſpecially Frumentius, and that not onelyonly after that by Athanaſius he was ordained there biſhop, but before euer by any he was ordeined either miniſter or biſhop, was a notable & effectuall meanes both to excite marchantes that came thither, and to drawe the people of that countrey it ſelfe. Moreouer Euſebius in his eccleſiaſtical hiſtory reporteth, in his ſixte booke and 19. Chapter, that Origen taught publikely before he had ordination, certaine biſhops being preſent: which when Demetrius Alexandrinus obiected as a fault, to Alexander biſhop of Hieruſalem, and to Theocliſtus biſhop of Caeſarea, they defended themſelues by alleadging diuers ſuch famous examples, as namely of Euelpis, Paulinus and Theodorus, which in like ſort had preached without the ordinary ordination. Yea, read Nicephorus 2 booke and 25. Chapter, and he will tell you, that vnderunder Conſtantius, Antonie the heremite taught at Alexandria, and that vnderunder Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flauianus & Iulianus being then but monkes (who in thoſe dayes were not reckoned amongſt Clarkes at all, for vntounto Gregories time they were not accounted Clarkes) did publickely preach and confute heretiques. And yet theſe examples I alleadge not, that I would be authour to anie, when an ordinarie calling may be had, to deſpiſe that, and to take vponupon them that function of the Miniſtrie without that lawfull ordinary calling: for that were to diſturbe the peace of the Church, and to open a gap to much diſorder and inconuenience: but to this end, to make it appear, that the Church of God in former ancient times, hath not ſo preciſely and curiouſly ſtood vponupon theſe points, of viſible ſucceſſion and ordination, for the iuſtifying of ones preaching the Goſpel at al times, and in all places, as you doe. For (doubtles) there hauehave beene times and yet may be, as after that great apoſtaſie ſpoken of 2. Theſ. 2. & in other great ruines of the Church, when it hath and may pleaſe the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this worke, without either immediate, locall or perſonall ſucceſſion going before; who (as long as they preach but the trueth, and otherwiſe the times be ſo corrupt, that of them that hauehave authority ordinarily to call men to that buſines, ſuch rather ſhould be ſhut out generally, then let into the miniſtrie) are to be receiued, heard, and liſtened vntounto, as ſuch whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himſelfe.