Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 37 · Answer (2 of 2)

Answer to John De Albines · Answer to discourse · Chapter 37 · Answer (2 of 2)

p. 341For Epiphanius writing firſt againſt certaine heretiques called Antidicomarionites lib. 3. Tom. 2. haereſ. 78. and next, againſt others p. 342called Colliridians, haereſ. 79. of the ſame booke and come: he ſheweth, how that theſe heretiques exceeded (euen as you doe) in offering vntounto Mary, and in honouring and worſhipping of her, againſt whom, he there at large inueieth bitterly, as againſt moſt vile idolaters for the ſame, telling them, that ſo to doe, was vngodly and wicked, and ſtrange frō the preaching of the holy ghoſt, yea altogether a worke of the Deuill, and a doctrine of the vncleane ſpirit, for Mary was no God, neither was ſhe giuen vsus, ſaieth he, to be adored, though ſhe were a moſt excellent & honourable Virgin, but (ſaieth he) to forewarnemen, of which kinde of too much admiring her, Chriſt ſaied vntounto her, woman what hauehave I to doe with thee? And a little after in the latter place he ſaieth, Ne que Elias adorandus &c. y^t is, neither is Elias to be adored or prayed vntounto, though he liue, nor Iohn, nor Tecla, nor any other Saint. For the olde errour ſhall not ouerrule vsus, that we leaue the liuing God, and worſhip thoſe things that are made by him. For they worſhipped and adored the creature, praeter creatorem, beſides the creator, & they became fooles Rom. 1. For if an Angell will not be adored, how much more will not ſhe that was borne of Anna. And therefore in the ende concludeth Mariam nemo adoret, let no man adore Mary, I ſay not a woman, but a man neither, For this miſtery is due to God, then Angels are not capable of this glorie &c. And therefore the ſame Epiphanius lib. 1. hereſ. 38. writeth againſt the Caians, for their inuocation of Angels. It ſhould ſeeme therefore, that Petrus Gnapheus (who was condemned for an heretique in the 5. generall Councell, was infected with ſome of theſe hereſies. For about the yeare of the lord 470. (as it appeareth in Nicephorus 15. booke and 28. Chapter) he was buſie in deuiſing and vrging, how Mary ſhould in the publicke Lyturgie, not onelyonly be honourably named, but alſo called vponupon & prayed vntounto. But if we would know the antiquity of theſe heretiques, and of you their ſchollers, Epiphanius haereſ. 79. ſendeth vsus for the originall of their pedigree to the woman in Ieremies time, y^t backd cakes to the Queene of heauen, and powred forth their offerings to other Gods, to prouoke the Lorde to anger; and therefore he calleth for Ieremy to charme & to ſtay thoſe adorers of Mary, y^t he wrote ſo againſt, y^t they trouble the world no more. In deede he ſaieth roūdly to thoſe idolatrous women in his time, in the perſon of God, Doe they prouoke me to anger, ſaieth the Lorde, and not thēſelues to p. 343the cōfuſion of their owne faces? And ſo goeth on in denouncing Gods heauy vengeance againſt them for the ſame, cap. 2. Hier. And therefore ſeing you are ſo like them in the cauſe hereof, take heede you be not enforced to be as like them in the puniſhment. You hauehave heard out of Origens 8. booke to Celſus, how like herein you are to that Idolater, both for the matter of your practiſe and doctrine, and for the reaſons you hauehave to confirme the ſame, and that he there ſhewes flatly, that he thought, that that was not the waie to pleaſe God, but rather to diſpleaſe him, to leaue him, and to runne to his Saints and Angels, to entreate them to bee meanes vntounto him for them. And Chryſoſtome alſo, who is the ſecond man, that here you would make vsus beleeue is on your ſide, to cleare himſelfe of all ſuch impietie, de muliere Cananea hom. 12. ſaieth thus. Tell me (ô woman) how thou durſt beeing a ſinner, goe vntounto Chriſt? I know what I doe, ſaieth ſhe (as he makes her to anſwer him) See the wiſdome of the woman (ſaith he) ſhe asketh not Iames, Peter nor Iohn. Yea in another homilie of his tom. 5. de profectu Euangelii, he further obſerueth, that when the Diſciples came and ſpake for her, he anſwered, I am not ſent but to the loſt ſheepe of Iſrael; but when ſhee came her ſelfe, that then ſhee had her requeſt, ſo thereby there labouring, and in expreſſe wordes in that homily, to encourage mē directly and immediately as plainly as we doe, to make their praiers to Chriſt themſelues, and not by aduocates. And as for Auguſtine the third man you name, hee hath meetelie well alreadie cleared himſelfe, euen in the verie place you quote, but to make the matter out of doubt, let vsus heare him ſomewhat further to ſpeak for his full purg…ion in this point. In his fiftie fiue Chapter de vera religione, and in his 22. booke and 10. Chapter of the cittie of God, hee plainely writeth, that to builde either temple or altar vntounto Saints or Angels (then which nothing is more common with you) is flatly vnlawfull, and in the former of theſe places hee ſaieth, that Saints are to be honoured for imitation, but not for religion, adding, that which the higheſt Angell vvorſhippeth, that muſt the loweſt man vvorſhippe, and in the other hee ſaieth, that they neuer ſacrificed nor builte temples to Saintes. And in the place you cyted out of him, hee ſaieth, vvhichwhich of the Biſhoppes ſaied, ſtanding at the altar, wee offer to thee Peter, or Paul &c. where, & in his 8. booke of the citty of God, & cap. 27. he p. 344vtterly condemneth, as vnlawfull offering of any ſacrifice to the Martyrs. And yet more directly againſt you in his ſecond booke againſt the epiſtle of Parm. c. 8. he writeth thus, if Iohn ſhould hauehave ſaied, theſe things wrote I vntounto you, that you ſinne not, & if any man ſinne, yee hauehave me for an aduocate with God, and I wil entreate him for your ſinnes (as Parmenian in a certaine place, ſaith he, put the Biſhop a mediatour betwixt the people & God) what good and faithfull Chriſtian, ſaieth he, would hauehave ſuffered him, yea who would hauehave taken him for an Apoſtle of Chriſt, and not for a very Antichriſt? Ambroſe alſo vpō the firſt to the Romās is as flat againſt any mediatours betwixt God & vsus, beſides Chriſt Ieſus, as any of theſe: yea there he doeth as directly confute your ordinary reaſon, of your getting the better to God by theſe, as to the Prince by his Nobles, as we; telling you firſt, that that is vnderunder the pretence of humility & reuerence to the Prince, to make your ſelues to the perill of your ſaluation, guilty of high treaſon againſt him. For it is to giuegive that honour that is due vntounto the Prince vntounto his Nobles, thus to leaue the creatour, to adore the creature: and then further anſwering you, that your reaſon holdeth not from Princes Courts on earth to Gods in heauē, For they are men, ſaith he, & therfore to thē men muſt ſo come, becauſe otherwiſe they know not whom to truſt, but with God that knoweth al things, to win his fauour, Suffragatore non eſt opus, ſed mente deuotâ, there is no neede of one to ſpeake for vsus, but of a deuout mind. And therefore he goeth on and ſaieth, that ſuch as yet will adore their fellow ſeruants or creatures, turne the glory of God into the ſimilitude of men, &c. as it followeth in the text. Againe howſoeuer ſome frende of yours, vnderunder the name of Athanaſius, hath cauſed one to ſpeake in your language, ſaying: make interceſsion for me, miſtreſſe, Ladie, Queene of heauen, yet Athanaſius indeede, to make it appeare how much he abhorred that impietie, in his orations againſt the Arrians, which all men know and confeſſe were his, firſt, oratione ſecundâ ſaieth, Sancti non poſtulant a creato aliquo &c. that is, the holie ſeruants of God, aſked not of a creature to bee their helper, Chriſt therefore whoſe help they craue is true God: and then againe oratione tertiâ, he writeth thus, creatura non adorat creaturam &c. the creature adores not the creature, therfore Chriſt who is adored is god. Theſe arguments of his had not beene good, neither would hee euer hauehave p. 335made them, if he had thought it lawful to honour and adore Saints as you doe, or as you would by fathering the former kinde of inuocation of Mary vponupon him, make men beleeue he did. And indeede Paul taking it for a thing that could not be denied him, Rō. 10. that none might pray vntounto any, in whom he might not beleeue, and it being moſt cleare, that the ſcriptures and all the ancient creedes grounded vponupon the ſame, togither with the very forme of our baptiſme, allowe vsus onelyonly to beleeue in God the father, God the ſonne, and God the holy ghoſt, vnanſwerably thereupon it muſt needes followe, that it is groſſe idolatrie, to pray vntounto any other. And ſo much in plaine tearmes hath Sedulius, aboue one thouſand yeares ago, moſt flatly ſet downe vponupon the firſt of the Romans, ſaying, Adorare alium praeter patrem, filium & ſpiritum ſanctum, impietatis crimen eſt, that is, to adore any, beſide the father, the ſonne, & the holy ghoſt, is an vngodly wickednes. Cyril alſo ad reginas de rectâ fide, &c. ſendeth them that would obtaine their prayers, to God the father, in the name onelyonly of Ieſus Chriſt, becauſe, ſolus naturâ & verè eſt Deus, he onelyonly is by nature and in trueth God: & contra Iulianum lib. 6. he flatly ſaieth, the holy martyrs, neither doe we ſay to be Gods, neue adorare conſueuimus, neither doe we vſe to worſhip thē. Yea Remigius, who liued well nigh 900. yeares after Chriſt, ſheweth vponupon the 96. Pſalme, that not onelyonly images are not to be adored, but he ſaieth plainely, no nor an Angell is to be adored, becauſe of that warning of the Angell to the contrary in the Apocalips. To conclude, euen Hierom himſelfe, your owne fourth and laſt man, whom I hauehave therefore kept to the laſt, becauſe many of you thinke that hee is much of your ſide, againſt Vigilantius, writing againſt the ſaied Vigilantius to one Ripacius, cleareth himſelfe to be farre frō this folly and blaſphemy, that you would make him an earneſt procter for. For there hee hath (to ſhew his iudgement in this caſe) writen thus, non colimus & adoramus, we worſhippe not and adore, I ſay not the reliques of martyrs, but neither ſun, moone, Angels, Archangels, Cherubin, Seraphin, nor any name that is named either in this world, or that which is to come (beſide the trinity, for ſo he muſt be vnderſtoode) For immediately he addeth this reaſon, leaſt wee ſhould ſerue the creature aboue the creatour, who is bleſſed for euer. We honour (ſaieth he) the relicks of the ſaints, that we may adore him whoſe martyrs they be. And good reaſon had all theſe fathers, thus flatly p. 346to ſet downe their mindes againſt you. For you know it is writen, Dominum Deum tuum adorabis & illi ſoli ſeruies, that is, thou ſhalt adore the Lorde thy God and him onelyonly ſhalt thou ſerue. Deut. 6. Matth. 4. and with this text Chriſt put the Deuill to ſilence, when he would hauehave perſwaded him to fall downe and worſhippe him: hee had nothing to replie againſt it, I praie GOD you bee not growen in this point more obſtinate and peeuiſh to withſtand the doctrine of this text, and more cunning and ſubtle to cauill againſt it, for your owne defence, then hee was. I know ſome of you, finding the Scriptures and fathers thus directlie to condemne adoration of the Saints (though they maintaine ſtill all your practiſe of praying vntounto them) yet hauehave not beene aſhamed to write (as it appeares in the cenſure of Colen printed there one thouſand fiue hundreth ſixty) that amongſt you it was neuer ſo much as heard, that the Saints are to be adored, for adoration is due onelyonly to God. Whereas they could not bee ignorant that their legends, roſaries, and other their bookes of deuotion, publique and priuate, are full both of the name and thing: did they not knowe that the whole pſalter is turned to the Virgin Mary, and that therein it is writen venite adoremus eam, come let vsus adore her? Howſoeuer they knew this or no, they could not forget their olde ſaying of the Croſſe, beholde the woode of the Croſſe whereon the ſaluation of the world hanged, venite adoremus, come let vsus adore it. If theſe will not ſerue to make them better to remember them ſelues, let them reade their owne Antonin. part. 3. Tit. 12. cap. 8. and they ſhall finde him, in plaine wordes to tell them, that the Saints, by the Pope, by his canonizing of them, are ſet forth vntounto men, not onelyonly as an example of faith and holy life, but alſo abomnibus adorandi & in neceſſitatibus inuocandi, that is, of all to be adored, and in neceſſities to be prayed vntounto. Wherein to ſay (ſaieth he) that the Pope erred were hereticall. But this is like your other common ſhifts, when you ſay you vſe the Saints but as Mediatours of interceſſion, and not of ſaluation, which onelyonly belongs to Chriſt; and that you: doe not giuegive them Latreian, but Douleian, that is, as you expound the words, not diuine honour, but an inferiour honour, not aſking at their hāds that they ſhould either giuegive you y^e good things you would hauehave, or keepe frō you the euil, that you would not hauehave, the falſhood and vanity whereof I hauehave both in my anſwere to the p. 347preface of your booke, and alſo ſomewhat in this Chapter already bewrayed. For let any man read ouer & conſider your praiers and practiſe, and he ſhall finde that you make them mediatours of ſaluation, and not onelyonly of interceſſion, though that onelyonly if you did (it being as it is, a ſpecial part of the office of Chriſts mediatorſhip, to be the very altar whereupon, and whereby we muſt acceptably, preſent theſe our ſpirituall ſacrifices vntounto his heauenly father, hee being, as he is, of himſelfe alone thorowly both able & willing fully to execute his owne office) you could not excuſe & cleare your ſelues, of being guilty of high treaſon againſt Chriſt. And he ſhould further finde, that you giuegive the diuineſt honour that may bee, & that you doe directly beg all things euen at their hands, that you can beg at Gods. For it is vſual with you to ſing to Mary: ſalua eos quite glorificāt: ſaue thē that glorify thee, that ſuccour the miſerable, help the weake, refreſh them that mourne: & you ſay to her, Mary mother of grace, mother of mercy, protect vsus frō the enemy, receiue vsus at the hour of death: & in the pſalter now turned & put forth by the deuout ſeruant of hers Bonauenture (as ſome thinke) you ſticke not to vſe all thoſe ſpeeches to her, y^t in the pſalmes are vſed to God himſelfe, and therefore you bluſh not to ſay vntounto her. HaueHave merciemercy vponupon me O Lady, according to thy great mercy, & according to the multitude of thy mercies blot out my iniquities. But not onelyonly thus hauehave you doubted about Mary, but quite contrarie to your owne wordes, when you would vſe theſe ſhifts, you deale with other Saints. For you praie to Baſil, that he would looke downe vponupon you from aboue, & change your whole life, and you praie Athanaſius to direct the holy people, & S. Cyprian to direct both your ſpeech and life, and who ſo readeth your ſpeculum exemplonim, your glaſſe of examples, he ſhall finde there, and in ſuch other bookes of yours, ſuch ſtories tolde of things done by this Saint and that, for ſuch as worſhipped them, as y^t thereby it may moſt clearely appeare, that you hauehave no ſtay nor moderatiō at all, whatſoeuer you ſay, in praying to them.

Thus then thou maieſt ſee (Chriſtian Reader) for all M. Albines ſending of thee to reade Origen, Chryſoſtome, Auguſtine and Hierom, for the maintenance of his praying to the Saints in Paradiſe, that not onelyonly they hauehave quite forſaken him therein, but that alſo both Scripture, they and a number of ancient fathers beſides, hauehave condemned that their praying vntounto Saints, for groſſe p. 328idolatry. The moſt (thou ſeeſt) that any of the fathers quoted by him for this, hauehave ſaied, that hath any ſoūd y^e way, is, that they thought it was not inconuenient to thinke, that the Saints in heauen, praied for the Saints aliue yet vponupon the earth, and that therby they did them ſome good: which, as I hauehave ſhewed thee, by good reaſons, proueth not, that therefore they are to be praied vntounto thus of vsus. But to conclude this matter, euen touching this point, I would hauehave thee to vnderſtand, that the firſt brochers hereof, & they of the ancient fathers, that moſt ſeemed to bee reſolued of it, yet ſpake thereof, but ſtammeringly and doubtfully. For thou haſt heard Origen onelyonly ſay, that he thought it was not incōuenient to think ſo, and vponupon the ſecond Chapter to the Romans, moouing that queſtion, whether the ſoules of the Saints departed, doe any thing, and labour for vsus, as the Angels doe, or no? he in concluſion determineth, that if they doe, that yet it is amongſt Gods ſecretes, and that it is a myſtery not to be committed to paper. And Auguſtine, de curâ agendâ pro mortuis, inclines to the negatiue, and therefore to that end alleadgeth, that Eſa. 63. Abraham knoweth vsus not, and Iſrael hath forgot vsus. And though Nazianzene ſeeme with Origen and Cyprian to think they doe pray for vsus and procure vsus good, yet where he ſhewes himſelfe to be moſt of that mind, as in his oration of Baſil, and in his epitaph of his father, he vttereth it not as a reſolute trueth, whereof he was ſure, but aduouching it, addeth, as I think, if I be not deceaued, or if it be not too much to ſay ſo: which argueth, that he was not perſwaded and reſolued, that it was a plaine trueth taught in the worde, but that onelie it was thought to bee a thing probable and poſſible: and therefore this muſt needes be a weake ground to build ſo maſſy and huge a building vponupon, as the popiſh praying to Saints cōmeth to. To conclude therefore this point, in this caſe notably hath Auguſtine ſaied, whē the queſtion is of a thing moſt obſcure, the certaine and plaine inſtructions of the diuine authority not helping vsus to decide the matter, let mans preſumption ſtay it ſelfe, doing nothing by inclining rather to the one ſide, then another. De pec. meritis lib. 2. cap. 36. And againe, ſeeing it is euidēt that they hauehave no ground for it in ſcripture (which ſome of the beſt of themſelues confeſſe) with Auguſtine let vsus ſay both of this and that which they would builde thereon, of Chriſt, or of his Church, or of any thing elſe which apperteineth to faith or life, if we, but as Paul ſaied, if an p. 332Angell from heauen ſhould preach vntounto you, beſide that which yee hauehave receiued, in the ſcriptures of the law & the goſpel, let him be accurſed: contra literas Petil. lib. 3. Cap. 6. And ſo vponupon theſe premiſſes boldly let vsus conclude, and ſay with him, Non ſit nobis religio cultus hominū mortuorū: de verâ religione cap. 55. let it bee no part of our religion to worſhip dead men. For as he there addeth. If they liued godly indeed, they are not now in that minde, that they would hauehave ſuch honours giuen them of vsus, but God they would hauehave vsus worſhip.

Now we are come to the laſt point of your 4, which is praying for the dead: for the which you wil vsus to read two places in Tertullian, one in Cyprian, two in Origen, one in Chryſoſtome, and three in Auguſtine: which at your requeſt I hauing done (though I muſt needes confeſſe, this your errour in ſome of theſe hath more countenance and allowance giuen it then the former had) yet I hope by y^t I hauehave done w^t you, you ſhal hauehave as little cauſe to brag that all theſe Doctours teach you your kinde of praying for the dead, as any of the former things, that you hauehave alleadged any of them for: for ſome of theſe your authours in theſe places you quote, doe not ſo much as mē tion praying for the dead at all, onelyonly they ſpeake of a certaine purging paine after this life, & that diuerſely, ſome in one ſence, ſome in an other. But I ſee, in peruſing theſe quotations (that your leaſure could aford to ſet downe for this point) & others, that diuers of your ſide, vponupon deepe deliberation & purpoſe to handle the matter as ſeriouſly as they could, hauehave to this end remēbred: that (to make a ſhew of great proofe whē you hauehave very ſmal) any place that in any ſence maketh mention of purging after this life, that ſerueth (you woulde make your reader beleeue) not only to proue your fained purgatorie, but alſo to proue your praying for the dead: and againe, any place (in what ſence ſoeuer) that mētioneth praying for the dead, y^t muſt needs proue both purgatory & your maner of praying to relieue ſouls there. Which, becauſe it is the thing whereby both you are abuſed, & wherby moſt fondly & yet abſurdly, in this caſe you alwaies ſeeke to abuſe your poore ſimple reader, before I proceede any further to examine your quotations, I muſt labour ſomewhat to acquaint him w^t. Firſt therfore, let him marke what force there is in this kind of argumēts: Origē or ſome other father ſpeaks of ſome purging paine after this life, ergo of the popiſh purgatorie. Auguſtine ſpeaketh vnconſtantly or very doubtfully of a purging paine or place after this life, ergo p. 350queſtionles there is ſuch a third place as the papiſts imagin, & ſuch purging there is as they teach. And there is ſuch a place, ergo they that be there muſt and can be relieued there by the praiers of the lyuing: or in ſome ſort the dead are to be remēbred in our praiers, ergo they in that place, therby to be releiued. For theſe are the very argumēts, which are by the mainteiners of praier for the dead and purgatory cōfuſedly iumbled togither out of y^e fathers. Secōdly, for the better eſpying of the weakenes of al theſe argumēts, he muſt vnderſtand how variably & vncertainly y^e fathers hauehave ſpokē & writē of purging after this life, & how far frō the popiſh ſēce: likewiſe he muſt be aduertiſed how diuers waies, remembrance may be made & hath beene for the dead by the fathers, and yet not in their ſence. Concerning y^e firſt wherof, becauſe Origen & Auguſtine are two that Albin hath eſpecially here named, by their mentioning of purging after this life, to proue both the popiſh purgatory and praier for the dead, let vsus but take a vew firſt in what ſence they hauehave ſpoken thereof, & how vncertainely and inconſtantly. And to begin w^t Origen, both becauſe hee was the ancienter, & becauſe hee was firſt named, in the very ſecond place here quoted by Albin, he ſpeaketh of purging in the fire of hel, and in the other of purging in ſuch fire, as will conſume in them that hold the foundation, their wood, hay, & ſtubble, that they built thereupon, that ſo when their ſoules depart from their bodies, they maie go to heauen, which with thoſe vnconſumed they cannot: which conſuming fire he ſaieth is God. For his words in the latter place are theſe. He that deſpiſeth the purifications of the word of God, and doctrine of the goſpel, reſerueth himſelfe to ſorowful & paineful purifications, that the fire of hel in torments may purge him, whō neither the Apoſtles doctrine, nor word of the goſpell hath purged. And in the other (preaching I am ſure they wil graunt to men aliue and not to the dead (his words (the better to make thē to looke whiles they were aliue that they caried no wood, hay, nor ſtubble w^t thē vnconſumed) be theſe: if after Chriſt the foūdatiō, thou buildeſt thereupō not gold, ſiluer, & pretious ſtones only in the minde (if thou haſt any ſuch) but alſo hay, wood & ſtubble, what wouldeſt thou be done with thee, when thy ſoule ſhal be ſeperated frō the body? Whither wilt thou with thy wood, hay, & ſtubble, enter in to the holy places and ſo defile the kingdome of God? Or for thē tary without, & for the other leeſe thy reward, which is not meet neither? What followeth then, but the firſt for theſe, fire bee p. 351giuen thee to cōſume thē? But God is the cōſuming fire of theſe: whereupō a litle after he exhorts al mē that hauehave any ſuch matter in them, that they would know their owne faults & in time amend them. The firſt place is in his 8. booke and 11. chapter vponupon the Romans, and the other in 12. homily vponupon Hieremie, euen as Albine cyteth him. Now who ſeeth not by this, that the purging place that he ſpeakes of in the ſecond place is hell it ſelfe, and that the other is in this life, whiles Gods childrē warned in time, whiles they are here, doe let the fire of Gods ſpirite both reueale vntounto them, and conſume in them all their vnſuteable building to the foū dation, whither it be in religion or maners? what places then were theſe (vnles the papiſtes bee growen now to be of opinion, that the partition wall betwixt hell and their purgatory is quite pulled downe, and al become verie hell, or elſe that their purgatorie is in this life) to alleadge either for purgatory or praiers for the deade? Further touching Origens fanſies about purging after this life, Auguſt. de ciuitate Dei, l. 21. c. 17. ſaith, that the very diuell & his angels after certaine grieuous and long laſting puniſhments, ſhal be freed and deliuered from thoſe torments and ioyned againe in ſociety with the holy Angels, as Origen beleeued. And vponupon Luke hom. 14. Origen himſelfe ſaieth, I think after the reſurrection from the dead, we al ſhal ſtand neede of a ſacrament to clēſe and purge vsus: for none can ariſe againe without his defilings. And vpō the 36. Pſ. hom. 3. he writeth that he thought, that it was needful that all ſhould come into the purging fire, though hee were Paul or Peter: and of the ſame mind he ſeemeth to be vpō the Num. hom. 25. which if you vnderſtād of any purging fire of tribulatiō, or of the inward effectuall operatiō of the fier of Gods ſpirit, to lightē, & to purge & conſume our darke, ſinfull and erronious harts (for ſo ſometime hee and others of the ancient writers ſpeake) then theſe places make nothing for your purgatory, which is after this life: if otherwiſe you vnderſtand him of ſome fire to purge after this life, ſo neither is he anie procter for your purgatory, to the which you ſende onelyonly the middle ſort, neither very good nor very bad. A man therefore may wel think, that you are neere driuen for proofes for your purgatorie or prayer for the dead, when you run to theſe, or anie ſuch places in Origen, that ſpeaketh thereof ſo variablie, and not onelie farre from your ſence, but ſometimes euen in your owne iudgement, aſwel as in ours, very heretically. Now p. 330as for Auguſtine, if what he hath writen of purgatory be well conſidered, your arguments from him will proue as weake, as from Origen. For whereas ſome of you alleadge him vponupon the 103. Pſal. ſerm. 3. for purgatory, it is plaine, that he there ſpeaketh of that purging by fire, which he ſuppoſed would be in the end of the world, whē all ſhould be on fire, and the good ſeparated from the bad, which fancy he rather chuſed to fall into, then to holde with Origen, that there is any purging in hell. The ſame Auguſtine moſt commonly vnderſtandeth that place of S. Paul 1. Cor. 3. of the fire of tribulalation and affliction, wkereby men are tried and purged, as he proueth out of the ſcripture, in this life, as golde in the fornace. And as for a meane place of purging any betwixt death & y^e iudgement, he writeth ſometimes confidently that there is none ſuch, and ſometimes he leaueth it in doubt. For in his fifth booke Hypognoſt: againſt the Pelagians, he acknowledgeth heauen to bee the place for the godly, and hel-fire for the wicked, but a third place, ſaieth he, we are altogither ignorant of, neither doe we finde any in the holy ſcriptures. In like ſort de verbis Apoſtoli, ſer. 14. he acknowledgeth theſe two againe, but a middle place hee vtterlie denieth, becauſe there is no mention thereof in the goſpell. I know it is anſwered, that when he ſaieth thus, hee ſetteth himſelfe againſt the Pelagians third place, which they aſſigned for infants dying vnbaptiſed. But then yet I reply and ſay, if hee had beene reſolued of the popiſh third place purgatorie, hee would and ſhould hauehave ſaied, there was no fourth place and not no third, if to this it bee reioyned, as I know it is by ſome, that he diſputed not there whither there were any more places then two before the laſt iudgement, but whither there were any more then two euerlaſting receptacles, after that iudgement alſo to continue, and that in that ſence onelyonly, he was reſolute there was but two: how then will they ſhift y^t of his de ciuitate Dei. lib. 13. cap. 8. where deuiding all that die into good and bad, immediately vponupon their death, he ſaieth, that the ſoules of the Godly ſeparated from their bodies are in reſt, and the ſoules of the other are in paines, whiles the bodies of thoſe riſe againe to euerlaſting life, and the others to euerlaſting paine which is the ſecond death. For here they cannot deny he ſpeaketh of the time & ſtate of ſoules before the laſt iudgement: and yet here he findeth no third ſort or place for them in the meane time, no more then in the other.

p. 353But he was not very conſtant herein. For in his 21, booke of the City of God, cap, 26. he ſaieth, if in this meane time, betwixt death & the iudgemēt, the ſouls of the departed be ſaied to ſuffer ſuch a fire, or there onelyonly, or there and here, or therefore here and not there, a fire (he ſaieth) of tranſitory tribulation burning vp their worldly ſmaller faultes, I reproue it not, becauſe perhaps it is true. & de fide & operibus cap. 14. hee ſaieth likewiſe, whither in this life onelyonly, men ſuffer theſe thinges, or after this life ſuch iudgements doe follow them (as I thinke) ſaieth he, this ſence of Paul is not againſt the trueth, namely to vnderſtand him of the fire of tribulation or triall. And in his Enchiridion cap. 68. he ſaieth, that the fire that the Apoſtle ſpeaketh of 1. Cor. 3. is the fire of tribulation, through which both kinde of builders, there ſpokē of, muſt paſſe: and tha ſuch a thing may be after this life, it is not incredible & whither it be ſo or no, it may be a queſtiō. cap. 69. The like he hath of the 8, queſtions of Dulcitius, in his anſwere to the firſt of them: wherein it appeareth that he was very vncertaine, whither there were or no any ſuch fire of tribulation, after this life any where, before the laſt iudgement, to purge men of ſome kinde of ſinnes: but what theſe ſinnes were, that ſtaied men from going to heauen ſtraight vponupon their death, whereof after they might get ſome releife and eaſe, he ſaieth, it was harde to finde, and perillous to define, and as for his owne part he confeſſeth, that though to that time he had laboured to finde out what they were, yet he could not, lib. 21. de ciuit: Dei, Cap. 27. And how dangerous it was and is, to fall into ſuch doubts, we may ſee in him. For in the 24 Chapter of the ſame booke, it appeareth, that vponupon this ſuppoſition, that there might bee ſome ſuch purging fire, as he ſomtimes doubted of, he moueth this ſound queſtion: whither they ſhall bee ſaued, whom the daie of iudgement ſhall finde vnpurged with this fire, which yet might hauehave beene purged with it, if it had not come ſo ſoone? and he reſolueth that with an other doubtful imagination, that they ſuffering for a time ſome pains ſhal hauehave mercy, as he thought, & not be condemned to hel, and in this ſaied 20 booke of the City of God he hath an opinion cap. 25. that in the laſt iudgement before ſentence bee pronounced, ſome ſhall paſſe thorow purging paines. And yet in the third queſtion to Dulcitius he determineth it as a flat trueth to be beleeued, that in the laſt iudgement there ſhall be no delay, but immediatly vponupon the ſecond comming of Chriſt it p. 330duplicate page p. 353duplicate page p. 356duplicate page p. 357duplicate page p. 354ſhall be, as we are taught Matth. 25. Hereby we ſee how wattering and inconſtant, euen famous learned men become, when they once wander without the light of the word, after the diſcourſes and reaſonings of the wit of man. How much better had it bene for Auguſtin in theſe queſtions to remember the rule, and to hauehave followed that which he gaue others in ſuch caſes (as I ſhewed before in the cō cluſion of the former point out of his ſecond booke de pecca: meritis & remiſſ. Cap. 36. Yet in none of theſe places or elſe where can I finde, y^t he once dreamed of ſuch a purgatory fire as the papiſts teach, which ſhould be materiall, and of the ſame nature that the fire of hell is, ſaue onelyonly that it is not eternal as that. Wherefore I conclude of him as of Origen, theſe things conſidered, the arguments are like to be very doughty and ſtrong, that are brought from any mention that Auguſtine maketh of purgation after this life, either to proue popiſh purgatory or praier to relieue the ſoules of them that bee there. And euen as I hauehave ſaied of theſe two, ſo might I likewiſe of moſt of the ancient fathers, from whence they would ſeeme at any time to fetch countenance for this their purpoſe, they are ſo variable wauering and inconſtant in their ſpeeches, moſt of them about this matter: but this I hope is and will be ſufficient to proue the weakeneſſe of Albins arguments from theſe two, to iuſtifie his praying for the dead, becauſe theſe two in ſome of the places quoted by him (when he can get them to come no nearer the point) hauehave in ſome ſort ſpoken of purging of men after this life in paines.

Now therefore likewiſe, I am to ſhew how weake there arguments be, drawen frō ſome mention found, in ſome of the fathers, of ſome kinde of remembring the dead in praiers. Which eaſily may be conceiued, if we vnderſtād, that firſt there may be an honourable mē tion or remēbrāce made of thoſe y^t are dead in the Lord, without any praying for them at al: to ſhew our thankefulnes to God for the good exāple they left vsus, both of liuing holily, & dying Chriſtianly, the better to prouoke others, by ſo remēbring of thē, to imitate their good example: and laſtly ſo to nouriſh in our ſelues, the hope of a ioiful reſurrection, and to teſtifie our louelove and Chriſtian affection towardes them ſo departed: which queſtionles was all that was done a long time, at the keeping of the memories of their deathes, or at anie time elſe, and of this very well may both Tertullian and Cyprian be vnderſtoode, in the places here quoted by Albin, as I will ſhewe anon. From ſuch a faſhion of mentioning the deade in our prayers, p. 355eueryevery ſimple man may ſee, popiſh praying for them hath no countenance at all. Secondly, we ought to be aduertiſed, that foraſmuch as they that are dead in the Lord, hauehave not yet their conſummation, nor ſhall not, before the laſt day, that in that reſpect alſo, for ſuch (of whom we fully are perſwaded that they ſo died, that they hauehave their part in the promiſſe thereof) praiers may be made by the godly aliue very lawfully. And therefore thus we graunt the ancient fathers might pray for the dead: and thus we our ſelues (as appeareth here in England by the forme of praiers appointed to be vſed at the buriall of the dead, refuſe not to pray; that we with thoſe brethrē and ſiſters of ours, that depart hence in the Lord, may hauehave our perfect conſummation and bliſſe, at the laſt day, in the generall reſurrection. And yet of praiers thus made, for ſuch onelyonly, by them or vsus, neither popiſh praying for the dead, nor purgatory hauehave any ground. Laſtly it is euident, that many of the ancient fathers of abūdāce of louelove towards their frendes departed, whoſe ſoules they were fully perſwaded were in reſt, and in ioy and felicity with the Lord in heauen (as they ſhew euen in the very places when their praiers for them are ſet downe) prayed yet vntounto God for them. Thus praied Nazianzē for his brother Caeſarius, oratione ſeptima, Ambroſe for Valentian. de obitu Valentiniani. And for Theodoſius. de obitu eius. and Auguſtine for his mother lib. confeſſ. 9. Cap. 13. Yea (as William of Weſtminſter reports in his ſtory) thus Charles y^e great about 800. years after Chriſt, wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta, to deſire him that praiers might bee made for Pope Adrian, nullam habētes dubitationem beatā illius animam eſſe in requie, ſed vt fidem & dilectionem oſtendamus in amicum nobis chariſſimum: not doubting (ſaieth he) but that his bleſſed ſoule is in reſt, but to declare our faith, and louelove towardes our moſt deare frend. Wherein they did, as if a tender tutor ouer his pupill, though hee knowe the childes parentes of themſelues will more carefully and tenderly looke to their childe, comming home vntounto them from the vniuerſity, then euer hee, did or coulde, yet writing vntounto them, to ſhewe his louelove towardes his ſcholler, ſhoulde deſire them to vſe him louinglie and kindely. Howſoeuer it cannot be denyed, but that this was ſomewhat more then needed, and was ſome occaſion of further proceeding, from ſtep, to ſtep, vntill there were too too playne groundes layed of popiſh kinde of praying for the dead, yet eueryevery man moſt eaſily may eſpie p. 356that this kinde of praying for the dead, can neuer kindle, either the fire of popiſh purgatory, or iuſtifie their kinde of praying to relieue ſoules there. Indeed it ſhould ſeeme by Aerius his oppoſing himſelfe againſt praying for the dead, as it appeareth in Epiphanius hee did, ſome by that time, miſtaking theſe kindes of praying for them, that I hauehave ſpoken of, and ſtretching the examples thereof further, then they ſhould (at leaſt as Aerius vnderſtood them) tooke vponupon them ſo to pray for the dead, that howſoeuer a man liued and died, yet after he was gone by the prayers of his frendes, it was thought y^t he ſhould doe wel inough. Againſt which kinde of praying for them, he inueigheth as againſt the bane of all godlineſſe and religion, but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted, that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude, or his owne onelyonly miſconſtruing the Churches faſhiō, in remembring of the dead in their praiers or praiing for them, he ſlanderouſly laied that to the charge of the Church. Epiphanius therefore in anſwering of him, laieth this downe for the ground of all the reſt, that thoſe whō the Church praied for, were with the Lord in reſt and ioie: which flatly ſheweth, that the Churches praying for the dead, that he pleads for againſt Aerius, maketh nothing for the popiſh praying for them, or for purgatory. But vponupon this occaſion, AErius vrging this queſtion, whither the praiers of men aliue did profit the dead, and if they did, whither ſo far, as that thereby they were deliuered from al their ſinnes, thereunto Epiphanius (both belike quite to condemne the opinion of the ignorant multitude, & yet loth alſo to defend that which he could not iuſtifie) firſt anſwereth onelyonly, y^t the praiers made for thē were profitable; & thē, y^t yet not ſo profitable, as that therby al their ſinnes were done away: but neither doeth he ſimply and plainely anſwere, that they were profitable to the dead themſelues, nor once take vpō him to aduouch, that thereby ſome certaine ſinnes, may be put away: but ſubtlely leauing theſe things thus in ſuſpenſe, he flyeth to other cauſes and reaſons why they are profitable. And the cauſes and reaſons ſet downe by him are theſe: firſt, thereby comfortably their frends aliue are occaſioned, to beleeue that they that are dead are not periſhed, but aliue with the Lord: ſecondly, that thereby may be nouriſhed in the that liue, this hope, that the ſoules of thē that are ſo dead, are as pilgrimes gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord: and thirdly, that by praying ſo, euen for the beſt, as for patriarches, prophets, Apoſtles, and martyrs, it may bee acknowledged that p. 357the beſt were offēders, that ſo Chriſt alone may hauehave that preheminence to be a man without ſinne, that ſo all may ſee, what neede they hauehave of Chriſt. The very like reaſons to theſe, are yeelded by him that beareth the name of Dionyſius the Ariopagite, of the ſolemne prayers and ſolemnities remembred by him at the buriall of the dead, cap. 7. Eccleſ. Hierarchiae: where, of them that die, he maketh but two ſortes, holy and prophane, placing the holy company all of them, aſwell the imperfecter ſort, as the moſt perfect, in bleſſed ſtate in their ſoules, immediately vponupon their deathes: and the other in woe and eternall miſery. And yet, he alloweth, not onelyonly, for the former ſort thankeſgiuing, but alſo prayers to be made vntounto God, that for Chriſts ſake, their ſinnes may be forgiuen them, for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are aliue, as Epiphanius did. So that though in this caſe it be vſuall with the Papiſts, to make great bragges of Epiphanius, and this Demus, yet if they bee thorowly looked into, they are more againſt them, then with them. The like may be ſaied of the reſt of the auncient fathers, whom they moſt make ſhewe of, in this point: for howſoeuer ſome of them, maie ſeeme to come ſomewhat too neare them, in ſeeming in ſome ſort to imagine, that ſome good may growe to the departed, towards the eaſing of them, of ſome of their ſinnes, by the prayers of the faithfull for them, after they be gone hence (as it cannot bee denied, but that Chryſoſtome, Auguſtine and ſome others hauehave thought) yet that they either placed all, that they prayed for to hauehave any of their ſinnes forgiuen thē, in purgatorie, or that they thought that ſoules ſo tormented there for ſinnes vnſatiſfied for here, might thereby bee freed from their ſinnes not fully pardoned them ere they went hence; they ſhall neuer bee able to proue. And yet theſe are the thinges that they muſt proue, or elſe their maner of praying for the dead is left vnproued. For with one voice, euen they that otherwiſe ſeeme moſt to fauour them in this point, holde, that there is no purgation or clenſing from ſinne, but onelyonly in the bloud of Chriſt; that here pardon of ſinnes is to bee obtained or neuer; and that after this life ended, there is no bettering or altering the ſtate of the departed, before the laſt iudgement: all which are poſitions, whereof eueryevery one is ſufficient, to quench the fire of the Popiſh purgatorie, and to ouerthrowe their ende of praying for the p. 358dead. For proofe whereof let vsus but cōſider of theſe ſpeeches and ſayings of theirs, amōgſt an infinite nūber of like force vttered by thē.

The authour of thoſe tracts of Iob (commonly fathered of Origen, from whence often they would ſeeme in this caſe to hauehave great furniture) deſcrybing the faſhion of the church in his time, ſaieth in the third tract or booke: we celebrate not the day of our natiuity, ſeeing it is the entrance into ſorrowe & temptation, but the day of our death, as the very laying aſide of all our ſorrowes, and the baniſhing of all tēptations, becauſe they die not, but liue for euer which ſeeme to die: and therefore, ſaieth he, we keepe the memories of the Saints, and of our parents, and frendes which die in the faith, as reioycing for their reſt, ſo begging for our ſelues conſū mation in the faith: and to this ende to celebrate the memory of ſuch ſo departed, we call the poore togither, and ſatiſfy thē with victualls, in token of our ioy & thankfulnes for their quietnes & reſt. He that getteth not forgiuenes of his ſinnes here ſhal not be there, and therefore, ſaieth Dauid, forgiue mee, that I may bee refreſhed, before I go hence, and be no more ſeene (ſaieth Ambrofe de hono mortis cap. 2.) And Cyprian againſt Demetrian, ſaieth moſt flatly, when one is gone hence there is no place for repētance, no effect of ſatiſfaction: & de mortalitate, againe he ſaieth, what maner of one God findeth thee when he calleth thee, euen ſuch an one alſo will hee iudge thee. Chryſoſtome is as flat as Ambroſe in theſe points. For vponupon the 4. of the Hebrewe; hom. 4. he ſaieth, that if we come to the throne of grace now, we ſhall hauehave grace, & mercy, now is the time of gifts, after of iudgemēt. and in his ſermon de Euchariſtiâ in Eucaen. there is (ſaieth he) after this life ended no negotiatiō, this is the time of ſuffering or ſtriuing, that of crowns; this of labour; that of eaſe, this of ſorow, that of reward: & therefore in the 7. Hom: vponupon the 2. of the Hebrewes, ſhewing a reaſon of the ſolemnities vſed at burials, he ſaieth, that the reaſō thereof is, that we may glorify God & giuegive him thāks, that hath crowned & taken to himſelfe our brother departed, & freed him from his labours & ſeruitude; are not our Pſalmes & hymnes for this & our ſinging, omnia iſta gaudētiū ſunt, al theſe (ſaith he) are the doings of men that reioyce. & de beato Philogonio, moſt cōfidētly he writeth, Ego fide iubeo &c. y^t is, I doe pawne my credit, if any depart from his ſinnes with his whole heart, & truly and vnfeinedly promiſe vntounto God, y^t he will returne no more vntounto p. 359them, that God will require nothing more of him to ſatiſfaction. But to come to Auguſtin, he in his 80. epiſtle to Heſichius, ſaith, in what ſtate ſoeuer thy laſt day findeth thee, in the ſame will the laſt day of the worlde come vponupon thee: for what maner of one eueryevery man dieth, ſuch an one then he ſhal be iudged: and vpō the 25. Pſa. he plainely wiſheth, that only the price of the Lords bloud might be ſufficient to him for his perfect freedome and deliuerance. Herein we are ſure they had the ſcriptures full of their ſides. For firſt they aſſure vsus, that the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt doth clenſe vsus from all ſinne. 1. Iohn. 1. and that hee ſo bare our ſinnes in his owne body vponupon the tree, that by his ſtripes we are healed. 1. Pe. 2. Secondly they teach vsus, that bleſſed are they, that dye in the Lord, for euen thenceforth immediatly they reſt from their labours, and their works follow them, Apo. 14. And thirdly likewiſe directly they affirme, that an ill man once dead, there is no more hope for him. Pro. 11. and that therefore wee muſt hauehave oyle in our lāps, in a readines when the bridegroome calleth vsus, or elſe we ſhal be ſhut out for euer, what ſtur ſoeuer we make to prouide oyle after, Mat. 25. And laſtly in theſe, vponupon theſe grounds all men are vrged, whiles the day laſteth, while the acceptable time or day of ſaluatiō endureth, whiles the Lord is nigh and may be found, & whiles they hauehave time to worke: to embrace the goſpel, to ſeeke the Lord, and to doe good vntounto al men, as it is well enough knowen. And therefore if theſe fathers, as mē, at any time, or any other, ether by their example or writing, hauehave in any point, neuer ſo litle in any kind of ſort croſſed thēſelues, & the holy canonicall ſcriptures, in any of theſe points, either in praying for the dead, or in laying any groūd or occaſiō therof, we may boldly leaue thē, & chuſe rather to cleaue vntounto thē in theſe.

Theſe things thus premiſed, let vsus now proceed to y^e particuler examining of Iohn de Albines quotatiōs, for their kind of praier for y^e dead. His firſt mā is Tert. for higher he cānot go to fetch any ſhew of colour for this matter, vnles he would run to Apocrypha writings, to philoſophers & poets, to heretiques, or to y^e notoriouſly knowen coūterfeit writings of Clemēt & ſuch like. And out of this Tertulliā he alleageth two places, the firſt out of his book de Monogamiâ, & y^e other out of his book de coronâ militis, both w^c were writē by him, after he becāe a Montaniſt, as Beatus Rhenanus in his argumēts of thoſe two books is ēforced to cōfes, for in y^e later he mētioneth y^e new prophecy, therby vnderſtāding Mōtanus fācies: & in y^e other he moſt plainly cōdēneth ſecōd mariage quite cōtrary to y^e doctrin of S. Paul p. 360as Hierom hath truely noted vponupon Titus, and therefore both there he condemneth that booke as an hereticall booke, and alſo in his catalogue of eccleſiaſticall wryters, as a booke writen againſt the Church. Albine therfore hath aptlier, then he was aware of, ſought out an heretique, in his hereticall wrytings, to bee the firſt man to ſpeake for the patroniſing of this popiſh hereſie of his. But perhaps he wil ſay, that he learned not of heretiques to ſpeake for prayer for the dead. Whereunto I reply, that if euer he wrote any thing therin to ſerue your turne, he learned it of no better ſchoolemaſters then of ſuch, or of philoſophers their ordinarie teachers. For as hee himſelfe writeth, de praeſcript. aduerſus haereticos, as the original of al trueth was doctrine receaued by the Apoſtles frō Chriſt: ſo the ſpring of al errour hath beene frō the diuel, by philoſophers. And touching this particuler, in his booke de animâ, he writeth, that the philoſophers that helde the immortality of the ſoule (as Pythagoras, Empedocles and Plato) aſſigned for ſoules departed, heauen, hell and a thirde purifying place: and in that booke he ſheweth, that Montanus his maſter helde, that the Patriarches before Chriſts comming were in hell, that Abrahams boſome was in hell, or in the lower parts, that onelyonly perfect men and martyrs went to heauen ſtreight, and that all ſmall offences muſt be puniſhed after this life to the vttermoſt farthing (his paraclet ſo expounding that of Mat. ca. de inf. & vlt: and in that booke alſo he telleth of a woman lying to bee buried, that at the praiers of the Prieſt ouer her, lifted vp her hands &c. whereby it ſeemeth, that the heretique Montanus, & his paraclet, might be very fit ſchoolmaſters to teach him a great part of your doctrine in this point. Further, that you may ſee not only by his own teſtimony, y^t he might hauehave ſuch ſchool maſters as I hauehave ſaied, to teach him herein, ſomwhat to fauor you & to ſpeake of your ſide: Irenaeus in his firſt book & 24. chapter teſtifieth of the heretique Carpocrates, that he was a great admirer of philoſophy, inſomuch, that to the images he made of Chriſt and of ſome of his Apoſtles, he ioyned the images of Pythagoras, Plato, and Ariſtotle, of whom hee learned to imagine, that there was a purifying place after this life, and ſo to proue purgatory out of that place of Matthew, as you hearde before Montanus Paraclet did. And the heretiques Heracleones, as Auguſtine wryteth of them, vſed ouer their deade, oyle, balme, water, and inuocation in the Hebrewe tongue. Hereunto ioyne p. 361you Virgils 6 book of his Aeneidos & lying viſions, & you hauehave the right ſcholemaſters, y^t hauehave taught you, & al that fauour you in this point. But concerning the places in Tertullian, which you quote, we need not thus anſwere you, for they are not ſo pregnant for you, as you imagined. For the words you ground on, in the firſt place are theſe (ſpoken by him to the wife to teach her how in this point to behaue her ſelfe towards her dead huſband) & pro animâ eius oret & refrigerium interim adpoſtulet ei, & in primâ reſurrectione conſortium, & offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius, that is, let her pray for his ſoule, and in the meane time deſire refreſhing for him, and felowſhippe in the firſt reſurrection, and let her offer alwaies when the yeare day commeth for his ſleeping: which are the words as Beatus Rhenanus confeſſeth, that he hath ſo ſet downe, acknowledging that he found it far otherwiſe, in all examples before. Againe, not onelyonly this obſcurity of Tertullians wordes, and the vncertainety what they were, diſableth this place from being of any force for you to ground vponupon, but alſo vnles you muſt hauehave it granted, that eueryevery womans huſband, to whom he gaue this counſel, was in purgatorie, wherof there is no ground at all in his wordes in that booke, but rather the contrary, whereby it ſhould ſeeme that he ſpake of ſuch, as were gone before in peace to the Lord: his words, if they were theſe, proue not your praying to relieue ſoules there. And the offering that he laſtly ſpeaketh of was either the offering of thankes to God for his quiet reſt, and ſleeping, or an offering or giuing of almes to the poore, in token of ioy for the ſame, and to prouoke them to be thākeful therfore alſo, as you heard me before note, the faſhion was when the tracts of Iob, fathered vponupon Origen were writen, out of the third tract of the ſame: and not as you woulde hauehave it taken, an offering of your propitiatory ſacrifice in your maſſe for his ſinnes. For hee ſaieth for his falling a ſleepe, and not for his ſinnes, and hee willeth the woman to offer, and not that ſhe ſhould get the Prieſt to doe it. And in anſwering of this place, your other is alſo anſwered, for there onelyonly he ſaieth oblationes pro defunctis, pro natalitiis annuâ die facimus, that is, wee offer oblations for the dead, for their birth daies, eueryevery yeares day. For in that he expreſly ſaieth pro natalitiis, for their birth daies, it is euident that he cannot, nor may not be vnderſtood, of any other oblation, but of thankefulneſſe and reioicing. But this offering for their birth daies, Beatus Rhenanus vponupon this place in his p. 362notes ſaieth, was heatheniſh, and afterwards was condemned and aboliſhed by the Nicene councell and others. And yet for any thing that theſe words of Tertullian enforce in this place, he ſpeaketh of no other oblations for the dead, but for their birth daies, ſo that long ago the date and credit of this teſtimony and faſhion was abrogated And laſtly, it is not to be forgotten, that he himſelfe within few lines after theſe words, ſpeaking of this faſhion & of ſundry others that there alſo he had ſpoken of, plainely confeſſeth, that theſe thinges had no grounde in the ſcriptures, but onelyonly by tradition. That which other of your fellowes alleadge to this purpoſe out of Tertullian in his exhortation to charity, may receiue the ſame anſwere with theſe, for it is euident, that booke alſo was writen in his Montaniſme, for there hee is againſt ſecond marriage as in the firſt, and ſo againſt Paul, Romans. 7. 1. Cor. 7. and with Montanus: and the words are no more pregnant to ground praier to relieue ſoules in purgatory, then the former were.

Now next is Cyprian, who was a biſhop in that City, wherein ſōetimes Tertullian had liued, in him for your praier for the dead, you would hauehave vsus read his Epiſtle ad plebem Furnenſem, in his firſt booke. I am ſure you meane the ninth Epiſtle of that booke, writen, as it appeareth there, ad plebem Furnilanorum, though either you could not or would not (to put your reader to a little more paines to ſeeke it out) tell vsus ſo much. But hauing found it and read it, howſoeuer you were perſwaded of it, we finde little or nothing there, that can doe you any good, for onelyonly there, of a decree made in ſome Africane Synode before his time, he groundeth his perſwaſion to that people, foraſmuch as one Victor had contrary to that decree, made one Heminius Fauſtinus miniſter, executour of his wil and teſtament, therefore to ſtay others from daring any more ſo to violate that decree, to the calling away the miniſters from attendance of their miniſtry; that they ſhould execute that decree againſt that their brother Victor departed: which was, that for this cauſe, there ſhould be no offering for him, nor ſacrifice for his falling a ſleepe. For ſaieth he, he is not worthy to be named in the praier of the Prieſt, that wil ſo cal away the miniſters or Prieſts from the altar: & therefore ſeeing this is Victors fault, let there be no oblatiō with you for his ſleeping, nor in his name any deprecatiō frequēted in the Church. Doe you thinke in good earneſt (Maſter Albine) that if Cyprian p. 363had thought, that his brother Victors ſoule, had bene in ſuch paines in purgatory, as you teach are there, and that theſe were the ordinarie meanes to eaſe ſoules there, that for ſo ſmall a matter as this, the breaking of this poſitiue law (which with you is vſually broken) if in your ſence, theſe things were to be vnderſtoode of oblation, ſacrifice and praier, for the eaſe of the party ſo departed, from vnderunder the puniſhment vponupon him for his ſinnes: that Cyprian either might lawfully, could without too too much cruelty, or would ſo without all mercy and charity, perſwade to depriue a brother departed of theſe things? You cannot be ſo without reaſon, as once to thinke ſo. The execution of this Canon againſt Victor, was but onelyonly a note of ſome diſgrace & ignominy laied vponupon him, the better to make others after to regarde that Canon, and not any denying of his ſoule any thing, ſo neceſſary for it, as you would make men beleeue, your prayers for the dead be. For that had beene then, furiouſly for a trifle to rage againſt the dead. But alas (maſter Albine) both you and your fellowes are wonderfully deceaued, in thinking that Cyprian meant here by oblation, ſacrifice and prayer as you doe. For queſtionles, by oblation and ſacrifice, he meant but the ſacrifice of praiſe and thankeſgiuing, and therefore he ſaied, not pro peccatis eius, for his ſins, but pro dormitione eius, for his ſleeping, and by praier, not praier for to eaſe him of his ſinnes, but the publique and ordinary praier, wherein then they vſed to make commemoration or remembrance of the godly brother departed, the better to prouoke others thereby to imitate him: which you might perceaue by his ſaying, he deſerueth not to be nāed in the praier of the Prieſt. All which you might the better hauehave learned thus to vnderſtande, if you had remembred that the ſame Cyprian in his fourth booke of epiſtles, epiſt. 5. hauing ſpoken of certaine famous Martyrs, Celerin, Laurence, and Ignatius, addeth: for theſe alwaies, you remember, wee offer ſacrifices as oft as wee ſolemnize the paſsions and dayes of the Martyrs, anniuerſariâ commemoratione, with a yearely commemoration. For I am ſure you holde that theſe were not in purgatory, and that therefore theſe ſtoode in no neede to hauehave an oblation and ſacrifice of the maſſe offered for them, or praiers in your ſence to be made for them. Yea how can theſe otherwiſe be vnderſtoode, then of the oblation and ſacrifice of thankeſgiuing, in the memorial or remembring the godly life and p. 364conſtant Chriſtian death of ſuch? And ſo we neither diſlike the practiſe, of ſuch thankful cōmemorations of the godly departed now, nor deny that of ancient time, for the comfort and inſtruction of them that were aliue, that it hath beene vſed. And of this offering of the oblation of praiſe and thankeſgiuing for the faithfull departed, very well may and muſt that be vnderſtoode, which vſually you alleadge ſo much out of the Lyturgies, which you father vpō Baſil and Chryſoſtome. For you know in offering it, they teach you to offer it to God, for thoſe that are at reſt in faith: their elders, their fathers, patriarchs, Prophets, Apoſtles, Euangeliſts, Martyrs, and for Mary the bleſſed Virgin her ſelfe. For I hope, you thinke not all theſe ſtād in neede to be offered & praied for, to be eaſed in purgatory. And yet your praying for the dead, & your purgatory are right Hypocrates twins, they muſt laugh and weepe togither, they muſt ſtand and fal, beginne and ende both at once. I am ſure you hauehave heard of Auguſtines ſaying, Qui orat pro martyre, iniuriam facit martyri, he that prayeth for a martyr, iniureth a martyr. And therefore long after, the councell of Bracchar in Spaine, mentioneth onelyonly a cōmemoration of the dead that die in the Lorde, with Pſalmes of thankeſgiuing, which it forbiddeth to be vſed for thoſe that kill themſelues, or for their faults are put to death. can. 34. Indeede in that councell, which was in the yeare of the Lorde 630. in the time of Honorius the firſt (for I ſpeake of the firſt held there) I finde mentiō in the 39. Canon (which is the laſt thereof) not onelyonly of a commemoration of the dead, but of ſome offering, when that was, or when the feaſts of martyrs in their memories were kept, of mony or ſome other thing for the reliefe of the needy, where order is taken for the receauing of it, and beſtowing of it: which either were the free will offerings of the liuing, to teſtifie their thankfulneſſe to God, for the good departure of the dead, or bequeſts and legacies of the dead, to the reliefe of the poore, & other holy vſes, againſt the ſtaying & detaining whereof, the fourth Councell of Carthage, and the ſecond of Vaſe ſharplie decreed. And it appeareth in Iuſtinus martyrs ſecond apologie, that euen ſo long ago, after the communion, there was an oblation of almes giuen for ſuch vſes, but he in neither of his apologies (though therein hee ſhewe what the forme and maner of the Chriſtians ſeruing of GOD then was, of purpoſe) once remembreth ſo much as any commemoration then made of the dead in their aſſemblies. Of ſuch offerings and oblations at the commemorations of the dead. p. 365I noted before what the authour of the tractes vponupon Iob, commonly fathered vponupon Origen, hath ſaied. Other oblation, ſacrifice, or offering, then theſe two, of thankſegiuing and almes, I cannot finde in any ancient and ſound writer, allowed. The more are you to blame (Maſter Albine) that thorow the ambiguity of the wordes, not vnderſtoode of your ſimple Reader, will make him beleeue, that yet, becauſe Cyprian hath theſe words, that therefore thereby he alloweth of your kinde of offerings, oblations, and ſacrifice of the …aſſe, for the ſinnes of the dead. If there had beene a… …ch vſe of the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Chriſt, why hauehave none of the Apoſtles or Euangeliſts made any mention of it? Or neither Chriſt nor they hauing ſpoken one word of anie ſuch vſe of it, what reaſon is there, that if there aftercōmers ſhould, without all warrāt from any of them, that we ſhould be leeue them therein? Surely whoſoeuer he be that ſhould, eſpecially alſo ſeeing we cannot finde, how many kinde of ſacrifices ſoeuer God for diuerſe occaſions in the old teſtament appointed, that euer he appointed any, or made any mention of any for the dead, we would learne of Chryſoſtome, euen therefore to ſay vntounto him, you ſee into what great abſurdities men fall, when they will not follow the Canon of the Scripture. Homil: 58. in Geneſin. and with Auguſtine, though he were an Angel, becauſe of a matter of ſo great importance, he ſpeaketh without warrāt either out of the old teſtamēt or new, he would boldly hold him accurſed. Contra literas petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. But to auoide this, I know, becauſe in a cauſe ſo gainefull for you, you will not ſeeme to bee altogither deſtitute of Scripture, the bookes of the Machabees, euen to help you at a pinch, in this caſe, in ſpite of all good antiquity and trueth, ſhall be Canonicall Scripture, and Iudas Machabeus fact 2. Mach. 12. muſt be vrged, not onelyonly as a lawfull fact, but as a preſident to warrant your offering and ſacrificing, to relieue ſoules in purgatorie. And yet in very deede, when you hauehave alleadged this fact of his neuer ſo much, you ſhall finde your dealing herein, as voide of credit out of the Scriptures of God, as before. For firſt, certaine it is, that theſe bookes are none of the Canon of the old teſtament, as you know well enough, Origen apud Euſebium lib. 6. c. 24. Athanaſius in Synopſi. Cyril Hieroſolymitanus foreign. Nazianzene foreign. Hierom. in prologo Galeato, Gregorius magnus libro 19. Cap. 17. vponupon Iob, the councell p. 366of Laodicea, and diuerſe others, hauehave determined: whoſe iudgements are inuincibly confirmed, by the contrariety betwixt the ſaied two bookes themſelues, by the authours crauing to be borne withall, and by his ſeeming to iuſtify, in thoſe bookes cōtrary to the Canonicall ſcriptures indeede, ſundry things. Secondly, let any mā read 1. Mach. 7. &. 12. & the 2.4.3. and 13. and he ſhall thereby moſt plainely ſee, that in thoſe times, whereof thoſe bookes containe the ſtory, there were wonderfull groſſe corruptions, directly contrary to the lawe of God, crept in amongſt the Iewes, from the Gentiles, and yet ſecurely practiſed of them. Thirdly, this is to be conſidered, that neither Ioſephus writing the whole ſtory of the Machabees, nor yet the fift Chapter of the firſt booke, where the ſame ſtory is handled, maketh any mention of this fact of Iudas. Fourthly, if we looke to his fact indeede, as the authour ſetteth it forth in Greeke, we ſhall finde, that the trueth thereof was and is onelyonly this, that he finding two thouſand ſlaine, that tooke vponupon them of their owne heads to fight with the Iannites, without commandement of their Captaine, of an ambitious minde to get themſelues a name, & y^t vnderunder their garments they had things hid conſecrated to the Gods of the Iannites, eueryevery man then ſeeing that that was the cauſe they were ſlaine, therupon firſt hauing called his people together, he exhorted them by that example to keepe themſelues from ſinne, and to giuegive glory to the Lord for his righteous iudgement executed vponupon them, and to pray that the reſt periſhed not, for that their ſinne, be like, hauing in remembrance the ſtory of Achan, Ioſua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done, he made a collectiō of two thouſand drachmaes & ſent them to Hieruſalem, to offer a ſinne offering, which if he did, to appeaſe the Lordes wrath that it ſhould not burſt out to the hurt of the reſt, as it did againſt the Iſraelites, at the beſiege of Ai, Ioſua the ſeuēth, for the like ſinne in Achan: as it may be hee did, hitherto hee did but well, and with warrant from the twenty one of Deutronomie, and ſeuenth of Ioſua: but here he ſtaied not, but as it appeareth by the authours owne wordes, foreign, diſcourſing with himſelfe of the reſurrection, hee prayed for the dead, and ſought to make reconciliation for their ſinne, that ſo they might hauehave their part in the reſurrection of the godlie, for whom very godly hee thought, that there was great hope layed vp. But if hee had remembred, that hee had neither commandemēt, p. 367example, nor promiſe in Gods booke thus to encourage him to doe, and that the Lord had ſaied. You ſhall not doe euerie one that which ſeemeth good in his owne eies, but that which I commaund thee, that onelyonly doe, thou ſhalt adde nothing thereunto, nor take ought there from. Deut: 12. he ſhould not hauehave followed his owne diſcourſe & imagination, thus to hauehave done without all warrāt from the word of the Lorde. In many places of the olde teſtament, he might hauehave remembred, that of purpoſe, the ſolemnity of burials are ſpokē of, & yet y^t neuer there is any mention, either of any ſuch thing cōmanded there to be done, or remēbred to hauehave beene done: yea y^t Tobias y^e elder (though there be much ſaied of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his hiſtory) y^t yet there is not any mention of any ſuch thing done by him. And it is worth y^e noting y^t from the time of Iudas Machabeus, it cānot be proued by any ſtory after, vntil now of very late daies, that any ſuch thing was by any godly man attempted againe. Further yet, how can this ſerue to breed any credit to popiſh praying or ſacrificing for y^e dead in purgatory? ſeeing the papiſts thēſelues confeſſe, y^t there was no purgatory before the comming of Chriſt: & that they y^t die in deadly ſinne (as it appeareth by the ſtory theſe did) go not at all thither, but ſtreight to hell. Laſtly, for any thing I can ſee in the authours words, thorowly conſidered, it may be ſaied, for his credit, y^t he ſheweth y^t Iudas Machabeus did thus, y^t he did very well & honeſtly to thinke & hope of y^e reſurrection, & very godly to be perſwaded y^t then it ſhould be very well w^t thoſe that died godly: but that vponupon theſe cogitations he did thus for theſe, he doeth not at all iuſtifie him, but rather ſhew that therein he followed his owne reaſon and diſcourſe. And this being thus, all the ſtrength of this place is loſt. For an hiſtoriographer may and doeth ſet downe often, aſwell the faults, as commendable things of famous mē, that they write of. Wherefore to cōclude this point, for all this, it remaineth firme and ſound that I ſaied before, they can neither by ſcripture, nor any ſound ancient writer, approue their ſacrificing, offering, or praying for the reliefe of ſoules in purgatorie.

Wherefore to go on, now we are come to examine Origēs teſtimonies, which are two onelyonly here cyted for prayer for the dead by Albine, namely his 12 Homily vponupon Ieremy, and his 8. booke vponupon the Romans cap. 11. in w^c places, let them be read neuer ſo often, there ſhal not be foūd ſo much as mētion of prayers for the dead p. 394indeede in both of them there is ſome mention of a purging fire, but as I hauehave ſhewed before in the firſt entrance into this point, when I repeated the words of the authour in theſe places, none at all of the popiſh purgatorie. For in the firſt, he ſpeaketh of that fire that muſt conſume our hay, woode, and ſtubble, which, hee telleth vsus, is God, who is a conſuming fire of ſuch things, and in the other he ſpeaketh expreſly of the fire and torments of hell, wherein, ſaieth he, he that would not be purged by the Euangelicall and Apoſtolique doctrine, reſerueth himſelfe to be purified. Thus thou maieſt ſee (good reader) that which I admoniſhed thee of before, how they proue praying for the deade, by mention of a purging fire: though it be mentioned neuer ſo diuerſly, and farre from their ſence, as in theſe two places it is moſt euident it is, whereby thou maieſt ſee, how, with out all conſcience, they ſeeke to abuſe thee, with fond reaſons and ambiguity of words. Belike, though the Scripture ſaie, in hell there is no redemption, yet Maſter Albine beleeues by his alleadging the later of theſe places, Damaſcenes tale of Gregories getting Traians ſoule out of hell by praier, and that Saint Frauncis and others alſo hauehave done and now can doe the like, or at leaſt, that he and his fellowes hauehave beene fowely deceiued, that before now made it a diſtinct place from hell. In earneſt let them take heede, whom they hauehave perſwaded hitherto, & doe hereafter, that they go but thither, and that they (ſo they will take order they may be well paide for it) will helpe them to eaſe there, and out in the ende, that they finde not indeede the popiſh purgatorie they dreamt of, in the ende to proue nothing elſe but the fire and torments of hell it ſelfe, that Origen ſpeaketh of. But to haſte to an ende of this point, Chryſoſtome and Auguſtine are yet behind, it may be theſe ſpeake ſomething more directly to the purpoſe: it cannot bee denied they doe, but the more a great deale was their weakeneſſe and fault, and neuertheleſſe yours euen where it was. Chryſoſtome is alleadged onelyonly in his third homily vponupon the epiſtle to the Philippians, where ſpeaking, as it is euidēt by his words, of ſuch as die in their ſinnes and infidelity, ſo that they go to hell, where (ſaieth he) peccata exuere non licet, that is, they cannot put of their ſinnes, he exhorteth their frends aliue to mourne bitterly for ſuch, becauſe, they are with the damned all the daies of their life, that ſo the better they may take heede of the like ſinne, ſo yet to ſhewe their louelove: and in the ende addeth, defleamus iſtos, p. 369iuuemꝰ eos pro viribus &c. let vsus mourne for theſe, let vsus to our power helpe theſe, let vsus procure thē ſome helpe, little indeed, yet let vsus helpe thē. How & what way? praying for thē, let vsus exhort alſo others to pray for thē, & w^tout ceaſing let vsus giuegive almes for them. Habet res iſta nōnihil cōſolationis, this thing hath ſome cōſolatiō &c. What is this to y^e great & vnſpeakeable good, y^t, you fāſie, cōmeth by your praiers and almes giuing for the dead? Yea I wonder how you are not aſhamed to quote vsus this place for your praying for the dead, ſeeing you your ſelues (as iuſtly you may) condemne as not onelyonly fruitles, but as quite vnlawful, all praying and giuing of almes, for ſuch as hee ſpeaketh of. But you will ſaie, that going on in the ſame place ere hee hauehave done, he goeth further, and ſaieth, that in the celebratiō of the diuine myſteries, it was not in vain decreed of the Apoſtles, that ther ſhould a memory be made of the departed hence, they know that great good would grow vtno them hereby: and how can it be, but that all the people and Prieſts praying and lifting vp their hands to heauen, and the reuerend ſacrament laied there, but that we ſhould pacifie God praying for theſe; but that which we ſay now, we ſpeake of them that departed hence in the faith. I graunt theſe words there follow, but yet the moſt that theſe words proue, is, that he thought the commemoration of y^e dead was inſtituted by the Apoſtles: and that the doing thereof at the celebration of the Lords Supper would be very accceptable vntounto God, and doe them ſome good. But in all this, if you vnderſtand him aright, here is nothing ſaied for your praying for the eaſe of ſoules in purgatory. For as before he ſpake of thoſe, that were in hel, in the ſtate of damnation, ſo he ſpeaketh this of thoſe that were in the ſtate of ſaluation already, with Chriſt their king in a bleſſed eſtate, and that departed hence in ſure faith thereof, as his owne words entring into this matter and concluding the ſame make it manifeſt. For all that he ſpeaketh of, y^t die, or are dead, he deuideth onelyonly into theſe two ſortes, & hauing firſt taught what is to be done for the wicked, vnfaithfull & dāned ones: then he cōmeth & ſheweth thus, what is to be done for y^e other. And therfore euē by your own receiued doctrine, ſpeaking but of theſe, you can vnderſtād him but of a thākeful cōmemoration of ſuch, in their praiers. But ſuppoſe he made an other diſtribution of the dead, into bad, good, and meane, as you doe, and that he ſpake theſe words of the meane in your ſence, what reaſon is there why you ſhould binde vsus to allow of his opinion in this, and p. 370that you your ſelues will not allow, neither of that which he taught before to be done for the damned, nor of that which immediatly after theſe words he ſetteth downe of thoſe that die being yet but catechumeni, that is, but learners of the catechiſm, whō he ſaith they barred of this comfort and left altogither deſtitute of all helpe but of one, that is, that almes might be giuen in their name, wherby ſome refreſhing might come vntounto them: whereas you ſaie that Ambroſe did well in praying for Gratian, who yet died vnbaptized. Yet this you will ſay is ſomewhat, that he fathereth the cōmemoratiō of the dead that he ſpeaketh of, vponupon a decree of the Apoſtles. I graunt it is ſomwhat,& more then you hauehave heard his ancient, Tertullian, hath done, or any other before him, & yet be it ſomwhat or more, you are neither ſomwhat, nor any more nearer your purpoſe then you were in the beginning. But to conclude with him, though he & 20 more ſuch as he, ſhould neuer ſo often tel vsus that it was decreed by the Apoſtles, y^t in the celebratiō of the diuine myſteries, there ſhould ſuch memorial or remēbrāce be made of the dead, they muſt pardō vsus if we beleeue thē not. For if they would be beleeued indeede in ſo ſaying, wee hauehave learned to ſay vntounto thē, as Aug. ſaied vntounto ſuch, as in his time vnderunder ſuch colours troubled the Church w^t their own fancies: legite hoc nobis de lege &c. Read vsus it thē out of y^e law, the prophets, pſalms, goſpel, or writings of the Apoſtles, that we may beleeue it. De vnit: eccleſ. ca. 6. For euen of Chryſoſt. himſelfe we are taught ſo to reuerence theſe canonical ſcriptures for their ſufficiency, y^t he that cannot proue that which he ſaieth therby, but cōmeth in ſome other way not graunted him, he is a theefe, hom. 58. in Iohan. And therfore he is not to thinke much, if we refuſe to credit him in this, which he can neuer proue to be as he ſaieth, by any ſoūd proofe either out of y^e ſcripture or elſe where. Thus therfore to diſmiſſe him let vsus ſee laſt of al what is brought vsus out of Auguſtine to this purpoſe.

Out of him three places are cited, the firſt is out of his 2 booke de Geneſi, againſt the Manichees, cap. 20. where there is not a word ſpoken of praying for the dead: onelyonly there (ſaieth he, ſpeaking of ſuch as hauehave not whiles they were here wel tilled their field, but let it be ouergrowen or oppreſſed with thornes) that ſuch after this life ſhal either hauehave the purging fire, or eternal paine: by which purging fire what he vnderſtandeth, it is hard to geſſe, hee had ſo manie variable opinions thereof, as I hauehave ſhewed before, and therfore hence no good argument can be drawen, to proue, that he allowed p. 371the popiſh purgatory. I am ſure they are not ſo in louelove with this place, that to proue their purgatory hence, they will now teach that ſuch as he ſpeaketh of ſhall go thither. For how coulde he hauehave deſcribed the worſt ſort of men more liuely, then he doeth thoſe that he ſpeaketh of. For is not he an extreame bad one, that hath ſo neglected here the field of his minde, that he carieth it hence men ouergrowen and oppreſſed with thornes? Sure ſuch as theſe, go ſtraight to hell, or elſe none. In the other two places, it cannot be denied, he both mentions praier for the dead, and in ſome ſorte alloweth thereof, and holdeth thereby good to come to the dead: the places are in his Enchiridion to Laurence cap. 110. and in his booke de curâ agendâ pro mortuis. But both in theſe ſame places, and elſe very often in his workes (as namelie in the 1, 4. and 18. Chapters of the later booke, in his 23. ſermon de verbis Apoſtoli, in his 21 booke of the Citty of God cap. 13. and 24. and to Dulcitius quaeſt. 2, it appeareth, that herein, and hereabout, in his time, there was great queſtion, ſome, as the common people, ſtretching the vſe of praiers for the dead euen to the diſcharging of the worſt ſort, and ſome altogither diſalowing any kinde of good to come thereby: whereupon ſomewhat too much caried with a deſire to appeaſe the commō people, he choſe the meane betwixt 2 extremities, which he thought in this caſe the ſafeſt: and ſo, that he ſeemeth to teach that they were profitable for a mean ſort, neither perfectly good nor extreame bad. And that in this queſtion of the determining the auailablenes of praiers for the dead, he was both greatly caried, by the ſway of the opinions of the multitude, and greatly perplexed to finde out, of what ſins men might be eaſed therby, he himſelfe moſt plainly ſheweth de ciuitate Dei l. 21. c. 24. & 27. in the firſt hereof diſputing ſuch queſtions thereabout as he did, & in the other confeſſing that though he had ſearched much for that matter, yet he could not be ſatiſfied therein: and who ſo readeth his booke de curâ agendâ pro mortuis, hee ſhall finde it wonderful full of doubts and queſtions about this matter; and before I hauehave ſhewed how variable & vnconſtant he was for the purging fire after this life: what a weake and tottering foundation or ground then is Saint Auguſtines authoritie in this caſe to build vponupon? But if hee had beene neuer ſo confident, conſtant, and reſolute herein, ſeeing hee confeſſeth as he doeth, that he hath no warrant for it in the ſcriptures but the Machabees, & y^t he laieth the cuſtōe of praying & offring for the dead as y^e p. 372verie foundation of his opinion in this point, by his owne leaue and rules, we may lawfullie without offering him any wrong, diſſent from him herein, as I hauehave ſhewed ſundry times before. For in his 112 Epiſtle, moſt plainely and honeſtly he ſaieth, Follow not ſo my authority, that therefore thou ſhouldeſt thinke thy ſelfe of neceſſity bound to beleeue it, becauſe I hauehave ſaied it, and de vnitate eccleſiae Cap. 10. we muſt not (ſaieth he) agree to catholicke biſhops, if peraduēture they be deceiued, or hold any thing contrary to the ſcriptures: the reaſon is, that (as he ſaieth) contra fauſtum, l. 11. cap. 5. ſuch mens writings, are to bee read, not with neceſſity of beleeuing, but with liberty of iudging. For onelyonly to the ſcriptures without gaineſaying (ſaieth he) I owe my conſent. Epiſt. 19. ad Hieronimum. This leaue and liberty you take in refuſing either him or any other of the fathers in a number of points, where you like them not, and why ſhould not we then hauehave leaue to doe likewiſe in this, being able, as we are, to proue that herein he went further, then either he had any warrant for out of the canonical ſcriptures, or out of any vnforged and vncounterfeited preſident, for three hundreth yeares at the leaſt, of any ancient father. But when you hauehave made the moſt of his ſpeeches and writings you can: you can neuer without doing of him moſt groſſe iniury, make him to allow of your kinde of ſacrificing and offering the body and bloud of Chriſt vntounto God the father, as a propitiatory ſacrifice for the dead. For de fide ad Petrum Diaconum, Cap. 10. moſt confidentlie he hath taught, bidding vsus to hold it moſt ſtedfaſtly and nothing doubt therof, but that Chriſt offered that ſacrifice to his father himſelfe, and that the holy Catholique Church ceaſeth not to offer the ſacrifice of bread and wine in faith & charity: which muſt needs be a ſacrifice of thankeſgiuing and commemoration of the other onelie propitiatorie ſacrifice, & not an offering of it againe, as you imagin… for quicke or dead.

Thus at laſt we hauehave viewed and ſcanned all your euidence (Maſter Albine) and for any thing we can yet finde, vnleſſe gaine and commodity that commeth rowling in vponupon you, by the practice of this point of praying for the reliefe of ſoules in purgatorie, were a more forcible argument to continue your liking thereof, then anie thing ſaied and taught, with anie conſtancie by anie of theſe doctours, in any of theſe places, or any where elſe, to countenance it withall, we might eaſilie be perſwaded, that you would quietlie giuegive p. 373ouer ſtāding any longer in ſuch egre defence of it, as you do. But indeede this argument hath proued ſo ſweete, and ſtrong of your ſide, that vntill we be able to weaken this, as we hauehave done the reſt, that is, to ſtop the paſſage of the cōming in of gaine and commodity vntounto you this way, we ſhall neuer put you to ſilence in this, howſoeuer we preuaile with you in all other points. This is the argument of arguments, the firſt and laſt, middlemoſt & all, that in trueth you hauehave for this, of any weight. And this we cannot deny to ſuch as you be, muſt needs ſeeme a moſt notable argumēt. For to make you in louelove w^t it, and euen for the ſake thereof alone, to hold on your plea in this cauſe, purgatory hath ſo pickt other mens purſes, & filled yours; & ſo diſpoſſeſſed others, & poſſeſſed you: and praying for ſoules there, hath ſo brought in paiments to you, & pilled and poled the heires & frends of y^e dead, that if you wil ſpeake for any thing, ſurely you will ſpeake & neuer giuegive ouer ſpeaking, for this. Iohānes Angelus, a mā of ſome credit of your ſide, ſaieth, that the ſoules that are in purgatory are of the Popes iuriſdictiō: & that he, if he would, could at once euē empty purgatory: & therfore (as it ſhould ſeeme) by his owne right, your Pope Clemēt the 6. in his time, by his buls cōmaunded the Angels to deliuer thēce ſo many ſoules, as he thought good. But I pray you, this being thus, why neither did he, nor any before him, being ſo holy & merciful fathers to their ſubiects & cliēts, as you pretēd they are, take ſuch compaſſion of the poore ſoules there, as of charity and compaſſion to ridde them all thence at once? The reaſon was, that this your onelyonly argument of gaine ſtill to grow thereby, might continue frō time to time in force. For doubtles it is not to be ſuppoſed, that ſuch a noble raſe of holy & moſt holy fathers, would hauehave ſtayed all this while, from doing ſuch a wonderfull worke of merciemercy and Chriſtian compaſſion, vnles there had beene ſome ſuch great reaſon of their doings. Well then, becauſe venter non habet aures, the belly hath no eares, and a minde deſirous and greedy of gaine, will neuer be ſatiſfyed, I wil not take vponupon me any further, to wreſtle againſt this argument, onelyonly I warne you, that euen in this reſpect, you be not any longer found, within the number of thoſe walkers, that Paul tolde the Philippians often of, and then when hee wrote vntounto them told them of them weeping, which were enemies to the Croſſe of Chriſt (for they ſought their owne and not that which was Ieſus Chriſts: cap. 1.) For then he wil go on with you, as he did with thē. & tell you, that your end is damnatiō, your belly is p. 374your God, & your glory, your ſhame, becauſe you mind earthly things. cap. 2. And in the meane time, vntill by this warning you cā and will learne to take heede, for this argument ſake, to giuegive ouer to plead any more for your praying for the deade, to eaſe ſoules in purgatory, amongſt an 100. other queſtions, that hang vndecided thereabout amongſt you, I pray you learne to anſwere this, how it chanceth, that ſince the light of the Goſpel came amongſt vsus in theſe later daies, to the detection and conſumption of your glorious Antichriſtiā kingdome, we hauing heard before tydings of ſo many, that apparitions of ſoules that are troubled there, and would be eaſed are growen now to gayſon and rare. And if you would hauehave your doctrine thereof run currant, as a plaine and reſolute point, I pray you alſo let vsus vnderſtand, how it came to paſſe, not long ſince, that S. Thomas More, and the Biſhop of Rocheſter, two deepe and profound learned men, and martyrs alſo of your Church (as your frēds accoūt thē) agreed no better thereabout: For Sir Thomas More held, there was no water in purgatory, becauſe Zachary calleth it a lake wherein there was no water, & the other held there was both water and fire, becauſe of the Pſalme which ſaieth, by water & fire thou haſt brought vsus to a refreſhing: and the Biſhop of Rocheſter held, that their executioners there were the holy Angells, and the other held, that out of all doubt they were Deuils. And vntil you hauehave learned to anſwere theſe our queſtions, and to reconcile theſe your owne Doctours, this ſhall be ſufficiēt to ſhew, that you hauehave neither all the doctours, Greeke and Latine, nor all the Chriſtians of the foure quarters of the world, ful and whole of your ſide in theſe foure points, as you bragged you had in the beginning of this chapter. And the rather becauſe touching this particuler, and laſt point, both the vanity and vntrueth thereof, you your ſelues hauehave confeſſed in that ſome of you (as Alphōſus by name) hauehave writē y^t the Greeke church could neuer yet be brought to be of your mind for purgatory, nor the Armenians, and that namely, as he ſaieth becauſe there is almoſt no mention thereof in the fathers eſpecially that were Greekes, aduerſus haereſ: l. 8. & 12.