Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 15
The XV. Chapter.
YOV will ſaie to me, that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commiſsion, butaThough in ſuch times & eſtates of the Church, wherein Luther and ſome others liued, there were iuſt occaſion why God ſhould ſtirre vp men extraordinarily to ſerue him, yet you know well enough, that both he and others, whoſe calling you moſt cal in queſtion, were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men. yours is extraordinary, as that was of the Prophets of the olde Teſtament, whom God did ſende to correct the Scribes and Phariſes: and that euen ſo God hath inſpired you and others, of your ſect to the like effect, that is to ſay, to correct the ſuperſtitious liues and doctrine of the Papiſts Idolaters: and by this, as farre as I can ſee, ye are cō miſſaries of God in his behalfe: & yee maie ſaie wel with S. Paul (although yee hauehave not bene rauiſhed vntounto the third heauen)*Gal. 1. that ye are not ſent by man or of man, but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Chriſt. But what would you ſaie, if we ſhould ſpeake againſt it, as a number doe, and that to reuenge this quarell, we ſhould write againſt your commiſsion, we might well aide our ſelues with a Sillogiſme of our Sauiour Chriſt, if we would come to pleade the matter, which is this:c*This argument, the contrariety betwixt your religiō & Chriſts, being as it is, proues neither your Church nor Prieſts to be of God. He that is of God, doeth obey *bJoh. 6.bIohn the eight you would hauehave ſaied.the word of God: but you doe not obey the word of God; therefore yee are not of God. I knowe that you will denie the Minor, and therefore it doeth appertaine to vsus to proue it. Chriſt doeth ſaie:*Mat. 22. aIn this particuler reſpect, witnes your Popes vſurping ouer Chriſtian Princes, none were euer more …uil…y in denying to Ceſar that which is Ceſars, then you.GiueGive vntounto Ceſar that, that appertaineth to Ceſar: and to God that, that appertaineth to God. That is to ſaie, to ſpeake familierlie, giuegive Geneua vntounto his Lord, and the Biſhopricke vntounto his Biſhop. Now, you doe not obeie this commandement, & therefore, as one that doeth not appertaine vntounto God, you hauehave prouided your ſelfe a new maſter. And becauſe we would not hauehave ſome to thinke, that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare falſe witnes againſt you, or, that we doe it without hauing anie intereſt vntounto the matter:bNay the euidence of the matter ſheweth, that your owne ſauage dealings, contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey, hath cauſed the ſt…rs there: and now of late you hauehave reuiued them, by open treaſon and rebellion. I am ſure, that all the world doeth know, that yee hauehave ſet all France in as ill an eſtate, as ye hauehave done the Dukedome of Sauoy: In that that appertaineth to the Church, is there anie Biſhoprick or Dioces left, where ye hauehave not ſought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine? where hauehave ye forgotten that, that Saint Paul doth ſaie, which is:*Rom. 10. how ſhal they preach if they are not ſent? What right hauehave you, to come to reape other mens corne? Doe not you remember that, that Tertullian doeth write againſt your elders, that did perſecute the catholique Church, againſt whom he ſaieth in hiscThis Tertulliā would ſurely hauehave ſaied of you, … he had liued in theſe daies. booke de praeſcriptione haereticorum: What are yee, and from whence doe yee come? By what right, O Marcian, doeſt thou cut downe my woode? Why doeſt thou, O Appelles, remoue my landes? And a little after he ſayeth: the place is mine, I hauehave beene thus long time in poſſeſſion, and before thee I hauehave good title and euidence, to maintaine my right, of thoſe, to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritāce from the Apoſtles. &c. Our church of France, which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church, might with good cauſe ſaie vntounto you the like. And I praie, what would you anſwere? You cannot denie, but thatdIf this were true, as it is falſe that your religiō were a thouſand yeares olde, yet being no elder, it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the leaſt, to be the true religion. aboue a thouſand yeares before ye were borne, that the faith in which yee were baptized, and the which you hauehave falſelie denied, was planted, I doe not ſaie, in this onelie kingdome of France, but ouer all Chriſtendome. If you pretende any right to the contrarie, ſhew the reaſon of your poſſeſsion by the euidence of theeThis we can, & hauehave often done already. ancient doctours, and after come to demande it, as I hauehave ſaied before: I meane, that you ſhould yeelde the eccleſiaſticall gouernment, which you hauehave vſurped in manie places, with too great libertie of conſcience, and licence to doe euill, which is the verie death of the ſoule,fS. Auguſtines words are theſe, quae eſt pejor mors anima, quam libertas erro…is? as Saint Auſtine doeth ſaie. Epiſt. 166. And after that yee hauehave reſtored France to his olde eſtate, then there will be more apparence of the matter, that ye are ſent to preach the true word of God, then there is now. But is this eſtate that yee are, although that God had giuen you commiſſion (the which he neuer thought) he would hauehave called it backe, becauſe of your noble actes. Theodoſius andgAreadius I think you ment. Arcades, which in olde time were Emperours of Rome (L. ſi quis in tantam. cod. vnde vi.) did eſtabliſh or make al Edict, that if the true owner or lord of a thing ſhould vſe anie force, or to ſeeke by the waie of violence (without ſtaying for the ſentēce of the Iudge)hEuen thus you, and your predeceſſours got poſſeſſion of your places, & therefore by this law, you hauehave but right to be thruſt out, as you hauehave beene. to get poſſeſsion of his own from another man, yea, although the other had no right to it, he ſhould not onelie loſe the poſſeſsion, but likewiſe the propertie: but if it were found, that he that did enter by force, had no right to the Mannor, hee ſhould not only be depriued of it, but moreouer he ſhoulde be condemned to giuegive as much more of his own vntounto him, againſt whom he had vſed the force, as the thing was valued at, that he ſought to vſurpe. If one ſhould cal you, my maſters the new reformed Goſpellers, to ſuch a reckoning, ye might wel packe vp your pipes, and tranſport your fidelie into another countreie, for you ſhould hauehave no other remedie, but to runne awaie with the goods, and preach pouertie.
The XV. Chapter.
WHat argument you ſpeake of, it is hard to tell ſeeing as yet (for any thing that I cā perceiue) you vttered nothing ſince you entered into this matter, to call vsus to an account of our vocation, worthie the name of an argument. Indeed that which loſely you hauehave vttered here and there againſt it, of the neceſſity of ſucceſſion of perſons, and of impoſition of handes (as you imagine) we muſt ſay indeede, take place in an ordinary calling, and not alwaies in an extraordinary. But by your ſpeach it ſhould ſeeme, you had relation to ſome thing, which you took to be an argument, ſet downe in the laſt Chapter before this; where in effect you hauehave ſaied nothing, but onelyonly in your ſcoffing maner found fault with vsus, becauſe in ſetting downe the ill liues of your prelates, on the one ſide of the leafe, we ſet not downe on the other ſide the good liues thē of our own: which how it ſhould ſeeme to containe an argument, either againſt ordinary, or extraordinary vocation, I ſee not. For neither they that are called the one way or the other; are alwaies bound to obſerue that order. But to let your pitiful logicke go, and to paſſe ouer your ſcoffing in calling vsus Gods Commiſſaries not worthy an anſwere, let vsus ſee, if you hauehave hit of any better argument here to proue our miniſters not to hauehave beene extraordinarily by God ſtirred, vp to correct the ſuperſtitious liues, and doctrine of the papiſtes Idolaters (as you ſaie, we tearme thē) then as yet you hauehave brought to diſproue their ordinary calling. If we would come to plead this matter with you (you ſay) you would aide your ſelues herein againſt vsus with a Syllogiſme of Chriſt, Iohn. 8. which is this. Hee that is of God doeth obey the word of God: but you doe not obey the word of God, therefore ye are not of God. You ſuppoſe that we will denie your minor, and therefore in that God commaundeth Matthew. 22. to giuegive vntounto Ceſar, that which is Ceſars, and vntounto God that which is Gods: and our miniſters doe neither of theſe, but the contrary, in deteyning Geneua from the Duke of Sauoy, and in being the cauſes of the ſtirres in France, and ſpoiling your biſhops and Prieſts of their liuings, you thinke that proueth ſo againſt them, that the concluſion muſt needs follow. Doe you thinke in earneſt, that whoſoeuer can be proued in anie one thing to diſobey God, ſtreight thereupon it followeth, that his commiſſion or calling is not of God? What man euer was there either ordinarilie or extraordinarilie called to anie office (except the man Chriſt Ieſus) but in ſome one thing or other, at one time or other, one waie or other hee did not obey God? Seeing that all men are ſinners, and there is not one that can truely ſay, his heart and handes hauehave alwaies beene free from ſinne, and tranſgreſsion of the law of God. Take Chriſtes words in this ſence, and ſo none, no not hee amongſt you, that is fulleſt of his workes of Supererogation ſhall euer eſcape this concluſion. If you had viewed the text, you ſhould hauehave perceiued, that Chriſt vſeth that ſpeach againſt the Scribes and Phariſes, who blaſphemed the doctrine of the Meſsias, and would abide neither to heare, nor to obey it, and not generallie againſt all that in anie thing are found at anie time diſobedient to God of ignorance, or infirmitie. And yet though he had ment ſo, and it were graunted, that eueryevery man in that hee offendeth, or ſinneth, is not therein of God: yet thereupon it followeth not, that the ſame man therefore cannot be a man, that hath his cōmiſſion or calling of God. Dauid was not of God, in that he committed adultery with Berſhebah, and murdered Vrias, yet euen then hee had a commiſſion of God, and a calling to bee King ouer his people. And therefore though you could proue theſe thinges to be true that you charge our miniſters withal, and though alſo it were graunted, that therein they hauehave done ill: yet thereupon neceſſarily it doeth not follow, that therefore they were not extraordinarily ſtirred vp by God, to correct your ſins, and abhominations, For Iehu, whom God vndoubtedly ſtirred vp to chaſtiſe the houſe of Ahab, and to correct the Idolatrous prieſtes of Baal, euen with an extraordinarie zeale 2. King. 9. & 10. yet he departed not from the ſins of Ieroboam, the ſon of Nebat, which made Iſraell to ſinne, as there it appeareth. Againe, it is ſtrange that you ſhould lay theſe as faults, yea as ſuch faults to our miniſters charge, as that therefore they cannot be ſent of God, when as not onelyonly it is a receiued, taught & printed doctrine amongſt you in the 5. Chapter of D. Allines defence of catholiques, but alſo ſuch as hath from time to time beene, and yet is moſt monſtrouſly practiſed euen amongſt your Popes (which pretend to hauehave the beſt, higheſt, and largeſt commiſſion from God of all other miniſters) not onelyonly that they may deteine dukedomes from the right owners, but alſo depoſe Princes, and Emperours, tranſlate their kingdomes and crownes to whom they pleaſe, and make warre againſt them both by forreiners, and their owne ſubiects, for the aduancement of their religion, when and how it pleaſeth them. For this your doctrine and practiſe conſidered, if your argument for the cauſes by you alleadged (ſuppoſing that they were true) hauehave any force againſt our miniſters, it hath ten times aſmuch force againſt yours, whoſe chiefeſt meane of late to eſtabliſh and continue your kingdome, hath beene (as the ſtories of all countries for this 600. or 700. yeares at the leaſt doe make it moſt manifeſt) by force and ſubtlety to bend and frame Kings and their kingdomes, either to be at your deuotion, or els to make a ſpoile of them, and their kingdomes for your ſelues and your frends. If therefore there had beene either ſhame or common diſcretion in you, you would neuer hauehave vſed this argument againſt vsus, which maketh more ſtrongly againſt your ſelues.
But in deed and trueth, the things, that you ground your argument vpō againſt vsus, are partly vntrue, and partly maliciouſly wreſted onelyonly againſt our miniſters. For neuer ſhall any of you be able to proue, that our miniſters either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy, or that either they or their followers were the cauſe of the ciuil warres and troubles in France. If the Duke of Sauoy hauehave any ſuch right to Geneua, as you pretend, and that it be withholden from him, it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the ſtates ciuil of thoſe parts, why ſhould it be layed to the charge of the miniſters, who you cannot proue hauehave had any intermedling therein? And as for the troubles in France, it appeareth by the ſtories thereof, that they hauehave proceeded firſt from your owne ſide, and that the doings of the proteſtant Princes there, hauehave oftentymes beene iuſtified, euen by the Kings owne edictes, and proclamations to hauehave beene done in all loialty: and that their warres hauehave beene but defenſiue againſt the oppreſſions offered them (contrary both to the ancient lawes, and preſent edictes of the Land) by certayne ambitious perſons, and not offenſiue either to the Kings perſon, or dignity. And as for your Biſhops and Prieſtes (of whoſe being driuen from their lyuings by our men, you complayne ſo much) in ſome ſorte I confeſſe, thorow their occaſion indeed, they hauehave beene diſpoſſeſſed thereof, but that ſeditiouſly or tumultuouſly, by force they hauehave beene driuen there from by them, we vtterly deny. For in moſt places, they hauehave beene diſpoſſeſſed thereof by mature deliberation, and conſideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto, in ſolemne and lawfull aſſemblyes of the eſtates of the countries, by the lawfull authority of the ſame eſtats: as namely here with vsus, in Englād, in Scotland, and in other kingdomes, where the Goſpell is receiued and eſtabliſhed by publique authority: and by the ſame authority orderly our men (whoſe right thereunto in thoſe aſſemblyes and Parliamentes hauehave beene founde to be the better) hauehave beene put into poſſeſſion thereof. And in other places, your Biſhops and Prieſtes, as not able to ſtand in the preſence of the light of the Goſpell, when, will they, nill they, they ſawe it would take place in their territories, forſooke their places, and left them to thoſe that had more right thereunto, as for example, they did in Geneua, when the Goſpell was firſt eſtabliſhed there. And no marueile, though vponupon the bare preaching of Gods trueth, and the entertainment thereof, many of your proude Biſhops, and ſuperſtitious Prieſtes can ſtand no lōger in their places. For when the Arke of God came in preſence, Dagon could ſtād no longer, though his frends ſet him vp againe neuer ſo often; yea the more they ſtroue, to hauehave him ſtand, the more dangerous fall got he, as you may read, 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be le…ted, but Chriſtes ſaying will take place, and be verified one time or other, EueryEvery plant, that my heauenly father hath not planted, ſhall be plucked vp by the rootes, Matth. 15.13. whereupon it commeth indeed, that the proude prelates, of your Antichriſtian Hierarchie, hauing gottē vntounto themſelues titles and offices, through the ambitious and fond deuiſe of mens heads, which God neuer allowed to be for his houſe, muſt needes (when God meaneth to reforme his houſe, and to eſtabliſh his owne orders therein) auaunte their roomes, and leaue their liuinges, for the Lordes true officers, and allowed ſeruantes indeede. Blame therefore the badneſſe of your foundation and title, for leeſing of your liuings, and nothing elſe.
You bid vsus ſhew our euidence, that our right to them is better then yours, out of the ancient doctours. In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes, in his booke of Preſcription againſt heretiques againſt vsus, and that of Paul, How ſhall they preach, vnleſſe they bee ſent? Romans. 10. I anſwere you: not onelyonly out of the ancient doctours, but out of the Canonicall Scriptures alſo, our miniſters long ago hauehave made euident demonſtration vntounto the Princes and eſtates, that hauehave driuen you out of poſſeſſion, and put them in, that their title to your liuings was good, and yours ſtarke naught; in that thereby they proued vntounto them, their religion to be ancient, ſound, and Apoſtolique, and yours to be but of a later Antichriſtian ſtampe: though you (according to your maner) ſay we cannot deny, but that your religion was planted throughout Chriſtendome 1000. yeares, before wee were borne: which you ſhall neuer be able to proue true: for wee moſt conſtantly deny, both that antiquity, and vniuerſality of it. And whenſoeuer you will, wee are ready againe by the ſame Scriptures, and Doctours, to proue our right by the ſame argument to bee good and ſound, and yours to be of no force: come to the triall of it, when, and as oft as you will. And therefore, ſeeing it is a thing moſt euident, that the reaſon why either you or we ſhould pretend anie right to theſe, or any other liuinges of the Church, is, that we feede the Church with wholeſome and ſounde doctrine; wee hauing oft proued ours ſo to be, by the grounds aforeſaied, and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours, both Pauls ſaying, and Tertullians muſt rather take place againſt you, then vsus. For I truſt you will confeſſe, that there Paul accounteth none ſent of God to preach, but thoſe that preach the truth; and queſtionles Tertullian vſeth thoſe words of his (as by the wordes themſelues, as they are ſet downe by you, it is euident) not againſt thoſe, that were able to proue their doctrine ſounde by the Apoſtles writings, but againſt fantaſticall heretiques, ſuch as had taught, and did teach doctrine diſſonant from the Scriptures, deuiſed vponupon their owne heades. Againſt whom he being to preſcribe, both by the Scriptures, and by the ſounde teſtimony of thoſe, that ſucceeded the Apoſtles vntill his tyme, he might lawfully and to good purpoſe ſay, what are yee, and from whence doe you come &c. And truely, when any man ſhall enter into a conſideration of the ſtate of the Church in Tertullians tyme, both in reſpect of doctrine and gouernment: and on the one ſide weigh the ſimplicity of the paſtours and teachers then, and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word, and then therewith on the other ſide, compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie, that hath beene theſe many yeares, and yet is in yours, ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing, but in a number of points, directly contrarying the word writen: hee ſhall be enforced to thinke, that if Tertullian were aliue againe, and ſawe notwithſtanding how confidently you ruffle, as though all were yours, and no man had any right to any thing, but your ſelues; he would more vehemently vſe theſe words here recited by you, againſt your prelates, then euer he did againſt Marcion, Apelles, or any other heretique in his time.
But you are ſo liberall vntounto vsus, as to tell vsus, that though wee had commiſsion from God, yet he would hauehave called it backe, euen for our noble actes and deedes, in driuing you out of poſſeſsion, and taking poſſeſsion, though of our own, before the ſentence of the iudge was giuen. Which you proue by a law of Theodoſius and Arcades Emperours of Rome, made to forbid men, vnderunder paine of leeſing their right, not to ſeeke to recouer poſſeſſion of their own, by violence & force. Wherunto I anſwere you, that graunt vsus ſo much (which of right you muſt) and for all your tale and penall Statute of Theodoſius and Arcades, we ſhall be to good for you. For firſt, what other Iudges ſentence were wee to expect, but theirs, that we had on our ſide alreadie? Secondly, there hath beene no ſuch tumultuous, or diſorderly violence vſed by vsus (as I hauehave ſhewed before) as their lawe forbiddeth, to recouer our owne from you: and then you muſt vnderſtand, that theſe Emperours preſcribe their lawe, to bridle men, and not to binde God from recouering his inheritance to the vſe of his ſeruants, from the hands of Antichriſtian vſurpers, euen by force and violence, if otherwiſe they will not yeeld. To proue therefore, that God would hauehave called in our commiſſion, though he had graunted it, rather then hee would hauehave ſuffred vsus to execute it, in violent driuing you out of poſſeſſion, to recouer our owne right, you had neede to hauehave vſed a ſtronger reaſon, then taken from the edict of Emperours. If theſe thinges had beene well cōſidered before of you, you might hauehave ſpared your ieſt, wherewith you conclude this Chapter well enough, and ſo rather hauehave ſtaied your pipes your ſelfe, then in ſuch ſorte, as you hauehave, blowen ſo ioyfully in token of triumph, before any likelihoode of victory. The vanity and falſhoode of your bragge, for the continuance of your religion aboue one thouſand yeares, before we were borne, not onelyonly throughout France, but alſo throughout all Chriſtendome, I hauehave fully and at large diſcouered in the later ende of the preface, & in my anſwer to your 4.16. & 39. ca. & therfore in this place I hauehave ſaied no more then I hauehave, referring the reader for a full anſwere thereūto both here, and whereſoeuer elſe it is repeated by you, vntounto theſe places. And though S. Auguſtine ſay, as you write, that liberty and licence of conſcience to doe euil, is the death of the ſoule: yet that toucheth vsus nothing at al, for doing what we may, by lawfull & ordinary means, to diſpoſſeſſe your Antichriſtiā prelats of the places of gouernment ouer Chriſts Church, and of the maintenance due to his true & faithful paſtors. For ſo to deale, is but orderly to recouer Gods inheritance out of the hands of his enemies, & to poſſeſſe them thereof, to whom it is due, and therefore in ſo doing, there is neither liberty nor licence to doe euil practiſed. But rather you, in crauing the reſtoring of you thereunto, and quiet continuance therein ſtill, craue both liberty & licence, without controlement to go on in ſacrilegious enioying that, which at no hand appertaines to ſuch as you be.