Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 7
The VII. Chapter.
YOV doe ſtudie as much as you can, to reiecte our ſucceſsion, and not without cauſe,aSucceſſion of perſons, without ſucceſſion alſo in trueth, neuer was eſteemed. knowing that this onelie doeth ſuffice to ouerthrowe all the hereſies of thoſe new reformed Goſpellers. Caluin, as the moſt apparēt, doeth ſeeke to proue, that our reaſon is of no force, becauſe that the Greekes hauehave had euer ſucceſsion of paſtours, and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes. But if the Reader doe well note that, that wee hauehave alreadie ſaied, hee ſhall finde the anſwere vntounto this obiection, I meane, becauſe that the Greekes hauehave not had ſucceſsionaHolde you to this, & you may giuegive ouer your brags of ſucceſſion for ſhame. and continuance of doctrine, called vnitie of faith by the Apoſtles, the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Paſtours, to ſhew the true recogniſaunce of the Catholicke Religion. There is none that doe ſtudie and reade of thoſe matters, but that doe knowe the vnconſtant faith of the Greekes, as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghoſt: the which errour they had abiured at the laſt councell of Florence, and yet notwithſtanding they did turne to it againe; beſides diuerſe other light things, to ſpeake moderately,bYou hauehave as many thinges of importance and more too, gaineſai…d by your forefathers. which are not approued by their ancie…t fathers, S. Iohn Chryſoſtome, S. Ciril, S, Baſil, & Athanatius, nor yet by our aduerſaries at this preſēt time. The which errours I hauehave no neede to ſet forth in this booke: for my intent is but to ſpeake of that, that pricks vsus at hand, becauſe of ill neighbourhood. Some doe alleadge vntounto vsus thecWe neuer alleage this alone, but together with the falſe doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Biſhops and Paſtours. negligence of our paſtours, and their ill liues, for the which cauſe they ſaie, that the mentioned ſucceſsion cannot take place. But this argument is of no force: For although that the careleſſe liues of ſome Biſhops and eccleſiaſticall perſons, hauehave beene ſo great & ſo hurtfull vntounto the bloud of our ſauiour Chriſt (I meane, to the ſoules bought with it) yet notwithſtanding that,dYet thus for the principall point, you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore prieſts. the church hath not loſt the ſucceſsion & continuance of one doctrine, as touching the adminiſtration of the ſacramentes, by thoſe that were deputed by the Biſhops.eIndeede this kind of diuiſion is altogether practiſed in your Romiſh Church, by your Cardinals and great prelats. If one ſhould ſee a Prelate doing nothing, and his lieutenant doing all, which of thoſe two would you take to bee Biſhop? they hauehave both deuided their charges: the one receiueth the profit, the other taketh all the paine. If they be both content, what loſſe do you feele? he that hath anie intereſt, let him valewe the damadge. And although that the negligence of the Biſhop bee not excuſablefAnd yet nothing more cō mon wi h you, then wilful continuance, yea by your Popes good leaue in this ſin. before God with the diligence of the deputie, nor his conſcience cleare, yet this ought to ſuffice, that though his faults be through negligence, or through euill liuing,gTrue: but ſuch doctrine you ſhal neuer proue yours. yet that ought not to perturbe the aſſurance of our doctrine, the which we hauehave taught vsus by the word of God, interpreted by the true doctours, that hauehave beene before vsus, agreeing in vnitie of faith, as I hauehave already ſaid: For neither the naughtines ofhThere is no ſuch there mentioned, this is your common hap in your quotations It ſeemes you would hauehave ſaid 2. Kings 16. Achas, Num. 1. nor of Ioram, nor of diuerſe other great ſinners, which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Ieſus Chriſt, were not able to withſtand the fulfilling of the promiſe of God made to Abraham, that is to ſaie, that he would be borne of this line: Euen ſo, the ill liues and conuerſation of diuerſe wicked Popes, that hauehave followed after Saint Peter, hauehave neuer beeneaThis is true, and yet you neuer the nearer. For though al Papiſts faile in faith, yet his church neuer faileth. able to moue Chriſt to breake his promiſe, that is to ſaie, that the faith of his Church ſhould neuer faile, Math. 16. and that the gates of hell (that is to ſaie) of infidelity, which are the portes of damnation, ſhould neuer preuaile againſt it.bI ſee not how that chapter or any thing therein, ſerueth to this purpoſe, any whit at all. Eſay. 58. Our aduerſaries therefore, that take ſuch great paines to ſet forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes, that hauehave beene ſince Saint Peters time, thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the ſucceſſion of the Catholicke eccleſiaſticall faith,cYour compariſon is odiou…: neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues, to that ende you ſpeake of, but to ſhew that your glory is your ſhame. doe no leſſe offend God, then if they ſhould go about to proue the promiſe of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine, becauſe of the evill liues of their ſucceſſours. Therefore thoſe that doe reproche vntounto vsus now, that the Popes of our daies are not altogither ſo holie as S. Peter, wee doe confeſſe it. But they cannot deny, or they will confeſſe vntounto vsus, that the aboue named euil Kings, Achaz, Ioram, Manaſſes, Amon, Iechonias, and others did leade no ſuch holy liues, as Abraham, Iſaac, Iacob, or Dauid: & yet notwithſtanding thoſe euil Kings hauehave beene ſet forth in the generation of our Sauiour, as the fathers of the iuſt Ieſus Chriſt. Let them iudge then that hauehave any witte, whether this bee a great folly or no, to ſee how theſe crafty coggers of the ſcriptures ſhould make many ſimple perſons refuſe, to be the Popes ſpirituall children, becauſe they were ſinners, ſeeking thereby, to ouerthrow all the ancient cuſtomes of the Church.
The VII. Chapter.
WHither onelyonly your ſucceſſion doeth ſuffice to ouerthrow all our Religion, or any part of it (though you here confidently ſay it is, and ſuppoſe that to be the cauſe, why we reiect it) I refer to ye iudgement of the reader, by that which hitherto hath beene ſaied by you, and confuted by me concerning the ſame. Whereby alſo, I doubt not, but eueryevery indifferent reader may perceiue, that we hauehave and doe ſtill yeelde other cauſes of our reiection of it, and not this at all. Whereas you call our Religion here hereſie, that you hauehave learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus, Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there, a captaine of the Sect, or hereſie of the Nazarites, and the high Prieſt and elders ſaied, it was euen ſo: yet hee was not aſhamed of the Goſpell of Chriſt, which they ſo tearmed, but ſtoutly ſaied before Felix to their faces, that according to that way which they counted hereſie, he worſhipped the God of his fathers, beleeuing all that was writē in the law & the Prophets: ſo, though you giuegive vsus neuer ſo many nicknames, and tearme our Religion neuer ſo oft new, and an hereſie, and hauehave your high Prieſt of Rome and your elders to bear you out in ſo doing, we neuer a whit the more miſlike of our Religion, as long as wee are able in trueth to ſay with Saint Paul (which our conſciences witneſſe, comfortably we may) that therein we doe but beleeue, that which is taught vsus in the canonicall Scriptures. Indeede not Caluin only, but eueryevery one of vsus, when we hauehave to doe with you, in this queſtion of your ſucceſſion, we tell you your reaſon drawen frō your ſucceſſion, is of no force, ſeeing the Greekes (whom you account heretiques) may vſe that argument, as well as you. But to preuent this our obiection againſt your argument of ſucceſſion, you ſay, They hauehave not ſucceſsion and continuance of doctrine, the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of paſtors, to ſhew the true recogniſance of the Catholique Religion. We are glad to ſee & heare, that euidence & force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honeſt & true replie to our obiection: yet we thanke you not for it at all. For ful gladly (if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce) would you hauehave run on wc bare ſucceſſion of Biſhops & paſtours, without any mention of this. Well, howſoeuer you hauehave beene drawen to confeſſe thus much, thereupon it doeth moſt euidently followe, that if there be as little continuance & leſſe too in the Apoſtolicke faith, and doctrine in your ſucceſſion, as there is amongſt ye Greekes; then by your owne confeſſion, your ſucceſſion is as weake a recogniſance of the Catholique Religion, as theirs. And therefore the caſe thus ſtanding, you had neede to hauehave beſtowed leſſe paines to proue your perſonall ſucceſſion, and more to hauehave proued this ſucceſſion and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine: for the other wtout this, you ſee is nothing. What a prepoſterous courſe is this then, that you, hauehave takē, to take ſuch leaſure to beſtow pains on that, which when you hauehave gotten is nothing, & to find no leaſure to beſtow any paines on this, which if you could hauehave proued, your aduerſaries would hauehave ſtoode wt you no longer? Enter yet into this controuerſie, when you will, & I dare vndertake, if you will be tried in this caſe, by the canonicall ſcriptures (which as I hauehave ſhewed, you muſt of neceſſity) it ſhall eaſily be proued, that (notwithſtanding all you can ſay againſt the Greekes) your popiſh Religion conſiſteth of more hereſies, and is a greater Apoſtaſie from the ancient Catholique, Apoſtolique faith, then theirs. The greateſt thing you charge thē withall is, their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghoſt from ye Father & the Sonne: which indeede, if they denied in that ſence yt is obiected againſt them by you, doubtles therin they were heretiques. But it ſhould ſeeme, yt they refuſe only that word, as not vnderſtood of thē, & added (as they ſay) without the conſent of the whole church to the creede, of feare onelyonly, leaſt by admitting ye word, they ſhould thereby be enforced to cōfeſſe, yt he came not of one beginning, but of two beginnings: in the meane time vſing other words, expreſſing in effect ye ſame thing. And if it be thus (as in the laſt ſeſſion of the Florētine councell it ſhould ſeeme to be, & els where) thē in that reſpect, their cauſe is not ſo ill, as you would make it. But be it (though you only ſay both, & proue neither of thē againſt thē) yt they held it in the worſt ſence now ſtil, & that alſo (as you ſay) in certaine other ſmaller things, they hold otherwiſe, then was held by Chryſoſtom, Cyrill, Baſil, & Athanaſius: yet I ſay, & will ſtād vntounto it, yt as dāgerous hereſies, & mo in nūber be held of your own cōpany, againſt the truth of Chriſts perſon & office, thē they hold in all: & in far more & greater points of weight, are you gone frō the ancient fathers, yt hauehave beene in the latin church, wtin the firſt 600. yeares, thē they hauehave done frō theirs. And therefore in the meane time, whiles you will ioyne this iſſue wt vsus, & vntil you hauehave diſproued this my aſſertiō, by ye ſame reaſon you reiect their ſucceſſion, will we perſeuere in reiecting yours.
Now whereas you ſecondly imagine, that we labour to weakē & ouerthrow the force of your argument taken from ſucceſſion, by lai…ng out the lewde liues & negligence in doing of their duties in many of thoſe paſtours & Biſhops, of whoſe ſucceſſion you boaſt: true it is, that prouoked by your too too great brags of your perſonall ſucceſſion, & by your immoderate railing againſt ſome of our paſtours and miniſters, whom yet you cannot ſtaine, but with falſe and maliciouſly deuiſed tales, ſometimes ſome of vsus hauehave beene occaſioned, to caſt your owne dunge into your faces. And we being able, as wee are, euen out of your owne ſtories, ſo iuſtly to lay ſuch a number of moſt notorious thinges to the charge of verie many of your greateſt Prelates, and the matter being notorious, that fewe or none of your Popes and Archprelates euer take it vponupon them, by preaching to feede Gods people (which is the principall duety of a Biſhop) we thinke ſtill, that that which we ſay and obiect againſt you in this behalfe, may iuſtly cauſe you to be aſhamed of ſuch fathers, & ſo to ceaſe duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page both your bragge of ſucceeding them, & your railing againſt vsus. To diſproue the force of this our allegation, you diſpute the matter, as though we went about to proue that the ſucceſſion of trueth hath ceaſed in the Church, becauſe we thus obiect againſt the perſons of many of your predeceſſours: whereas we moſt conſtantly holde & beleeue, that it hath alwaies continued, and that (though you grow ten times worſe, then any that hath beene before you) it ſhall ſtil, vntounto the worldes ende. But withall we tell you, it hath beene continued by others, and not by thoſe wicked and negligent paſtours and predeceſſours of yours, that we ſpeake againſt. For as their liues were deuiliſh, ſo was their doctrine Antichriſtian, as yours their childrens is. Too too fooliſh therefore is it that you write, that wee doe no leſſe offende God in laying forth the liues of ſundry of your Popes, thinking thereby to ouerthrow the ſucceſsion of the catholique Eccleſiaſticall faith; then if one ſhould go about to ouerthrow the promiſe of Chriſt to the Patriarches, becauſe of the bad liues of diuerſe of their ſucceſſours. For we holde, that the Succeſſion of the Catholique faith, hath continued, and will to verify that promiſe of Chriſt. Matthew. 16. though neuer ſo many of your popes go to the deuil. Neither did we euer in laying forth their moſt filthy liues, thinke thereby to ouerthrow the Succeſſion of faith: for we neuer tooke them to hauehave any ſociety or coniunction with it, ſince they became ſuch. But you ſtill (according to your old woont) taking it for giuen, which ſhal neuer be offred you, that their perſonall ſucceſsion, and the catholique trueth went alwaies togither, which we doe moſt earneſtly deny, imagined that wee could not ſpeake againſt the one, but that therein alſo, we ſought to ouerthrow the other: when as we are perſwaded, that of al other perſons vnderunder heauen, your Popes for this long time hauehave beene Sathans moſt forcible meanes, to ouerthrow both the Apoſtolique trueth, and Catholique Church. Wherefore you ſee, you might wel hauehave ſpared your paynes in the greateſt part of this Chapter: and ſo let any, that hath witte, iudge, whither it be not great folly for any man to be ſo ſimple, as to ſeeke to be the childe of ſuch fathers, as neither had honeſtie, nor any ſoundneſſe of religion, as many of your Popes, for any thing that you hauehave yet ſaied to the contrary, hauehave beene, whoſe children yet (how bad ſoeuer) you would hauehave men to be.