Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 1

Answer to John De Albines · Answer to discourse · Chapter 1

p. 1The firſt Chapter.

CALVIN your Patriarch doth lay to our charge a great and an outragious boldneſſe, ſaying (according to his opinion) that we hauehave introduced or taken in hand the miniſtery of Ieſus Chriſt, without being called to it by him that did inſtitute Aaron in the ſaied eſtate. And becauſe that he himſelfe can better then I expreſſe his cōplaint or accuſation, I thinke it beſt to ſet forth his owne writings, which, according to his diſciples opinions, are of great force & vertue. His words, as you may read, are theſe. Seeing that the Papiſts heare S. Paul ſay, Jn his booke of Jnſti. cap. 18. Art. 58. Hebr. 5.Heb 5that no perſon ought to take vponupon him, or vſurpe the name and the honour of Prieſthood, but he that is called to it as Aaron was. And that Ieſus Chriſt tooke it not vponupon himſelfe, but did obey the vocation of his father, either they ought to ſhew, that God is the Author and inſtitutour of their prieſthood, or els they muſt confeſſe, that they are not called of God, ſeeing that of their owne boldenes they hauehave taken it in hande.

Theſe are Caluins wordes, by the which the reader may gather, that Caluin doth enioyne vsus to render him an accoumpt of our vocation. And although that it be ſo,L Si quis ad ſi, ad leg. Jul. de nil. publ. &c. that by the Ciuill law one ought to try the right of the poſſeſſion, before he come to demaūde it, & the ſpoyle (as we are to him and his fellowes, as touching our Temples and reuēnues in many places) ought to be reſtored againe before the ſuite proceede: Yet, releaſing this that the law doeth alowe vsus, we are content to anſwere to his demaunde: adding this requeſt thereto, that both you that are his diſciples, and he, doe make readie your papers to anſwere vsus the like as touching yours. But before I proceede in mine anſwere (vnderunder correction of a man that thinkes to hauehave ſuch good eies) me ſeemeth, that his argument is but very ſimple, p. 2to ſay, that if we cannot ſhew, that God is the authour of our Prieſthoode, that we ſhould be conſtrained to confeſſe, that it is not of God,aaSophiſtry in taking that as ſpoken of your maner of calling to your Prieſthood, which he ſpoke of the Prieſthoode it ſelfe. Numb. 16. 2. Pa…al. 26.Num 16:2 ſeeing that without being called, we take it vponupon vsus. For, what reaſon is there, I pray you, in this? for although it were ſo, that of our owne priuate power and authority, without being called, wee ſhould take it vponupon vsus: it ſhould not follow by that, that it is not of God. For by that reaſon one might ſay, that God was not the authour of the prieſthoode of Aaron, ſeeing that Dathan, Abyron, and Ozias tooke it vponupon them of their owne boldnes; the which is not true. And as touching this, that he ſayeth, that our order of Prieſthood is not of God, we will proue that falſe inbbBut that place you find not in this booke. ſome other place: but at this time, we muſt treat of our vocation, to anſwere him and his complices, how and by what vertue we exerciſe our miniſtry.

ccThis I deny, that you come to your calling in this ſort, for neither is there right ſucceſſion amongſt your Biſhops and Paſtours, nor continuance in that trueth which yet you ſay only & neuer proue.We are called to this eſtate, according to the ordinary way: that is to ſay, by the right ſucceſsion of Biſhops and Paſtours, and by the cōtinuance of one Catholique faith, deriued frō the Apoſtles to our daies, without the interruption of it vniuerſally:ddThat trueth indeede hath alwaies cōtinued, and ſhall by the meanes of faithfull teachers: but neither with you, nor by meanes of your teachers, is at all proued by there places. Math. 5. Epheſ. 4.Matt 5Eph 4 for in diuers places of the world it hath beene euer cleare and certaine, manifeſtly ſhining like the light ſet on the table, to giuegive light to all thoſe of the houſe, and not vnderunder the buſhell, to be ſhadowed with darkenes. Saint Paul, eePeruſe the place & you ſhal finde, that though Paul reckon vp there thoſe miniſteries which ſhould fully be ſufficiēt for the Church, yet he once mē tioneth not your greteſt Prelac…es. Howſoeuer therfore it may be as you hold they be, neceſſary and moſt neceſſary for the pompe of your Church, that ſo the better ſhe might anſwere her patterne, Apoc 17. yet thereby we may ſee Chriſts Church ſhall & may grow to her perfection & yet neuer bee acqua…nted with them.Rev 17after that he had recited by order the Eccleſiaſticall Hierarchie, I meane, of the Apoſtles, Prophets and Euāgeliſts, he doeth declare at the laſt the cauſe why they were inſtituted, being for the edification of the miſtical body of Chriſt, the which is the Catholique Church, vntil (ſaieth he) that in the vnity of faith we go to meete him. He taketh his ſimilitude of many that come from diuerſe waies, and meete all in one way.ffIndeede hee plainely there teacheth, tha… there ſhall bee alwaies to that ende, teachers in he Church, but hee ſaieth not, that they ſhall ſo ſucceede one another either in perſon or place, a… you would …eene thereupon to builde. For no ſuch line of continuall, locall or perſonall ſucceſſion, from his time to this day, can be produced. And thus hee meanes, that the ſpiritual edification of the Church, ordeined of Biſhops, Paſtours and Doctours, ſhall endure, vntill that the Goſpell be preached through all nations. By the effect of the which Goſpell, both French, Spaniſh, Engliſh, Greeke, Perſian, Arabian, Latines, & Barbares, with many other nations which were too iedi… to name, hauehave met together, hauing of great antiquity all one kinde of Catholicke faith, by the Apoſtles and their ſucceſſours for euer. As the ſome of God, before he ſuffred, did attaine & arriue to the perfectiō of his age: euen ſo, his miſticall body of the Church ſhall continue in this world, vntill it be perfect in his members, and that the number of the choſen be accompliſhed. And euen as a materiall building cānot be perfectly atchieued p. 3withoutggWe ſee and heare of many great & goodly buildings in the ende perfited, in building whereof there hauehave beene many and ſometimes long intermiſſion. continuance of workemen and maſons: euen ſo the ſpirituall building of the Church cannot be atchieued, without the ſucceſsion of Bi…ops and Paſtours, preaching, or cauſing the word of God to be preached, which is the very ſpiritual building, the which hath beene euer common and viſible in the Church, according to the prophecie of Eſay. hhSap. …1. ſay you, wel hit: the place is in Eſay 62.Isa 62Sap. 61. …ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the pre…eruation of his Church, hee did ſay, as it were repreſenting the ſtate of Hieruſalem. I hauehave eſtabliſhed and ordeyned iiBut few ſuch hauehave beene in your time of ſucceſſion, theſe many yeares.watchmen vponupon he walles, the which ſhall neuer holde their peace, neither day …or night. Theſe watchmen are thoſe, that hauehave annoūced to vsus our ſal…ation: They are the trumpets of Ieſus Chriſt, which neuer hauehave left their …ounding in the true Church of God, from the Apoſtles time vntounto this …reſent day.

AN ANSWERE TO MASTER IOHN de Albines diſcourſe againſt hereſies, called and accounted by his frendes, A notable diſcourſe to that purpoſe; made by Thomas Sparke, Paſtour of Blechley in the countie of Buck. .1591.

Chapter firſt.

CALVIN we eſteeme and account of, as of a rare & ſingular miniſter of Chriſt, & his writings (as they well deſerue) wee thinke reuerently of; and you hauehave tried them to be of great force & power, to ſhake the very grounds and pillars of your Babilonical building: but our Patriarch we neither account nor cal him, though you in your third word take it, and therefore ſet it downe for graunted that we doe. It ſeemeth, you thinke ſcorne, that hee ſhould charge your Prieſthoode not to bee of God, and ſo to cal you to an accoūt of your vocatiō. Indeede I cānot blame you, that it grieueth you, y^t that ſhould be called into queſtion, ſeeing it is a thing you hauehave bragged on ſo long, & hauehave gained by (at the hands of the blind & ignorāt) both al y^e credit & wealth you hauehave, eſpecially p. 2duplicate page p. 3duplicate page p. 4ſeing alſo, that what words ſoeuer you vſe to countenance the matter, yet you ſhall neuer be able to iuſtifie it. Howbeit, as though not onelyonly you were able to anſwere Caluin to the full in this point: but alſo as though there were either ſome great impiety, or vanity (at the leaſt) in his words, you recite them twiſe, admoniſhing your Reader, that they are his wordes. Be it that they be ſo, what hauehave you ſaied either to argue the leaſt folly in thē, or to iuſtifie your vocation in ſuch ſort, as therein he proueth you muſt, or els it cannot be of God? Firſt you woulde proue Caluin in theſe wordes to offer you wrong, in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth, that vnleſſe you can proue God to be the authour of your vocatiō, it cannot be of God: becauſe the Ciuill law preſcribeth, that one ſhould proue his right of poſſeſſion, before he demaunde it, and that he ſhould reſtore the ſpoile, before the ſuit proceede. But who ſeeth not, that that which he alleadgeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more iuſtifie his demaūde, that either you muſt ſhew, that god is the authour of your Prieſthoode, or els confeſſe, that you are not called of God: then anie thing that you hauehave noted out of the Ciuil law, can proue, that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands. Becauſe you are an Archdeacon, it ſhould ſeeme, that you would faine that men ſhould thinke (to the ende you may be iudged the fitter man to execute your office) that you hauehave ſome ſkill in the Ciuill lawe, in that you are thus ready, euen at the firſt to cite it. For to ſmall force elſe it ſerueth, for neither is your axiome ſo general, but that it notwithſtanding rightly vnderſtoode, a man may lawfully and orderly proceede, and yet firſt demaūde his right to poſſeſſion, and after timely enough proue his demaūde thereunto to be both honeſt and iuſt: neither doth Caluin or any of vsus claime any right of poſſeſſion of your maſſing Prieſthoode, that you neede bid vsus firſt proue our right thereunto. For we deteſt it as a thing Antichriſtian and vtterly vnlawfull, and we holde that no ſound Chriſtian will euer plead for any right thereunto. And as for the ſpoile of your temples and reuenneues, that you would hauehave vsus to reſtore before the ſuite betwixt vsus proceede: we ſay againe, that both law and reaſon teſſeth you, that before you ſhould ſo peremptorily call for reſtitution, you ſhould proue the wrong. Which, neither you, nor none of your ſide (though to bewray what grieueth you moſt, namely the parting away from your fat morſels, vnleſſe your bare accuſation were ſtraight a conuiction) hauehave yet once proued againſt vsus, and therefore the action p. 5may proceede well enough againſt you, for any thing, that your Ciuil law can helpe you. We are in poſſeſſion (we graūt) of Churches and reuennues, that heretofore you held in ſundry places, but herein wee hauehave not wronged you at al, howſoeuer you coūt it a ſpoiling of you. For firſt, through the mercy of God to his Church, & of his iuſtice towards you (your ſins being growen ripe) by the light of his word, he made it appeare, that you were wrong withholders of theſe things, in that they being founded, and giuen for the maintenance of a holy Miniſtery, for y^e ſound feeding of peoples ſoules, you vſed thē for the ſupport of an Antichriſtian Miniſtery, to poiſon the ſoules of men with his deuiliſh doctrine and vſages: & therefore, God ſecōdly ſtirred vp the harts of Princes, and Chriſtian magiſtrates, orderly to diſpoſſeſſe you thereof, & to giuegive them vntounto ſuch, as would vſe thē better. Yea ſo far of is it, that either they or we cā iuſtly be ſaid herein to hauehave done you any wrong, or ſpoiled you, that wee are able to proue, y^t you getting, and keeping them in your handes, for the cauſe aforeſaid, moſt ſacrilegiouſly ſpoiled y^e true Church of her reuēnues, conuerting them to the maintenance of the ſeruice of Antichriſt, to the moſt dāgerous robbing of the peoples ſoules, of the foode of life due vntounto them therefore, and for this cauſe you had wrong, that you were let alone with the poſſeſſion of them ſo long as you were.

Now, whereas before you will proceede to anſwere Caluins demaūd, as a ſharpe Logician, you ſay, his argument ſeemeth vntounto you very ſimple, to ſay, that if you cānot ſhew, that God is the authour of your Prieſthood, then you muſt confeſſe, that it is not of God, ſeeing that without being called, you take it vpō you. In reciting thus his words, you wilfully alter them, and frame his argument otherwiſe, then he made it. For he ſaied not (you your ſelfe being witnes in ſetting downe his words before) ſeeing that without being called yee take it vpō you, but ſeing of their own boldnes (ſaith he, ſpeaking of you) they hauehave takē it in hand (hauing therein relatiō to the Prieſthood it ſelfe) which if you cannot proue (as you neuer ſhal) to be inſtituted of God, it muſt needs follow, not only, that it is not of God, but y^t you hauehave taken it in hand of your owne boldnes, as he ſaieth, & ſo by moſt neceſſary conſequent, your calling cānot be of God. So y^t he reaſoneth not, frō your rūning into your prieſthood of your ſelues without a calling (as by reciting his argumēt, altering his words as I hauehave ſaied, you would ſeeme to vnderſtand him) to proue your Prieſthood not to be of God: but frō the vnlawfulnes of your Prieſthood p. 6it ſelfe. For he was not ſo ſimple (I warrant you) but he knew as wel as you, that many hauehave, doe and wil hereafter intrude themſelues, vponupon an office of Gods owne ordināce: and that, notw^tſtāding their lacke of lawful calling thereūto, the office yet remaineth holy, lawful and good. And therefore, he moſt plainly laboureth, to proue your popiſh calling to your Prieſthoode vnlawful, whatſoeuer you make of your ordinary calling thereūto, becauſe the Prieſthoode it ſelfe is not of God, & therfore ſuch a thing, as you hauehave taken in hand of your owne heads, what ordinary calling ſoeuer by man you hauehave thereūto. And therefore, as plainly as may be, he telleth you, by warrāt of the 5. to the He. that either you muſt ſhew, that God is the authour & inſtitutour of your Prieſthood, or els you muſt confeſſe, that it is not of God, but a thing takē in hād, or deuiſed o… your own, boldnes. And this to hauehave beene his purpoſe and drift, vnles your eies be very bad, and your wits yet worſe, you could not chuſe but perceiue. But this argument (belike) was to ſtrong for you, & therefore (as in the like caſe, it is a common tricke with the men of your faction) you thought beſt to frame you another weake enough, and ſo fit for your ſtrength; which whiles you hauehave labored to cōfute, you hauehave fought but w^t your owne ſhadow, & ſlaine a childe of your owne begetting. Your exāples therefore of Dathā, Abirā & Ozias, you may take hōe againe, & keepe thē in ſtore, vntil you hauehave more neede of thē. In the meane time remēber, y^t though you hauehave anſwered your owne argumēt, yet Caluins ſtādeth in his ful force ſtil againſt you. For though it follow not, you hauehave entruded your ſelues, therefore the office, wherupon you hauehave intruded, is not of God, becauſe theſe, which you named, intruded themſelues vponupon the lawful Prieſthoode of Aarō: yet I hope how ſimple ſoeuer (and worthily) this argument of your owne framing ſeemed vntounto you, that you wil graūt, that ther is both ſtrength & force in this, which is Caluins indeed: your Prieſthoode it ſelfe is but a bare ordinance, and deuiſe of man, and hath not God for the authour thereof; therefore whatſoeuer your calling bee thereunto, it is vnlawfull, and not of God. If you would not hauehave this concluſion verified of your calling, it is not enough for you to ſaie, that you came to your Prieſthood according to the ordinarie way: nay it is not enough, to proue it, which yet you go not about; for commonly not onelie for this, but for all thinges els of importance through your booke, your bolde aſſertion is your onelie proofe. For if the office it ſelfe be not of God, but a plant, which the heauenly father hath not p. 7planted, then howſoeuer you come vntounto it, your calling cannot bee of God. A vaine thing therefore is it in you, here or any where els, to ſpend words and time to ſhew, how you attaine your Prieſthood, hauing not anie where firſt proued, the Prieſthood it ſelfe to be of God. That is the thing, that Caluin telleth you you muſt ſhew, or els you muſt confeſſe your calling is not of God, ſeing it is but to an office, of your owne boldnes deuiſed and taken in hand. And yet this being a thing, which (to iuſtifie your calling) it ſtood you vponupon moſt, & in the beſt maner you could, to hauehave proued, yea without the profe wherof, all that euer you hauehave ſaied, or can ſay of neuer ſo ordinarie a comming thereunto, is merelie vaine & friuolous: yet you ſaie, you will not meddle with it here at this time, but you put it of to another place, not once finding time & place in this your diſcourſe to ſpeake a word of it againe. Wherein at the firſt entrance, in the eies of the wiſe, you hauehave giuen your Prieſthood a greater wound, then al that you hauehave ſaied, concerning the lawfulnes of your vocation thereūto, can euer heale vp againe. For this thing being the moſt pertinent, & material thing, that could be (your drift and purpoſe in this diſcourſe conſidered) for you to hauehave laboured about, as about the ſoule of your cauſe, to giuegive al the reſt life: how could you perſwade your ſelfe, but that in thus ſhifting of this, though ſo thruſt vponupon you by your owne citing of Caluins words, but that euerie one would ſtraight iudge, y^t you did it not, becauſe you had no will to hauehave proued it, but becauſe you feared, that your ſkil would not ſerue you ſubſtātially to doe it? And therefore in pollicy you thought it more wiſdōe, thus to paſſe it ouer, as though you could ſaie enough thereof if you liſt, then by entring into it, to lay open your weakenes to your frends, in ſo great a matter, at your firſt entrance into your booke.

Howſoeuer you hauehave thought it the ſafeſt waie in this place, to ſay nothing hereof, & for ſauing your credit to make ſhew, as though you would ſay enough in ſome other: in y^e mean time, euē here, the nature of your popiſh Prieſthood conſidered, I confidentlie aduouch, that neither you, nor all you togither, can euer proue indeede, that it is of God. For the Scripture teacheth vsus, that Chriſt hath an euerlaſting Prieſthood, and that he executed that office here, and doth ſtil there, where he is, for his Church ſo perfectlie, that he hath this prerogatiue, that he needeth no ſucceſſors to cōtinue his office, as y^e Prieſts of Aaron had, nor anie other either to offer any new, or to iterate that ſacrifice, which he offred himſelfe for the ſaluation of p. 8mā, he hath offred one ſo perfect, & ſo perfectly once for al: He. 7.23.24. & 10, 10. &c. which prerogatiues y^e maſſing Prieſthoode robbeth him of, firſt, in that they will bee his ſucceſſours, in the office of Prieſthoode: and thē, in that they take vpō thē, to offer him again in ſacrifice to his father, for the ſinnes (as they ſay) both of the quick & dead: & moſt blaſphemouſly make thēſelues, in their offering him againe to his father, mediators betwixt him and his father, praying him (as it appeareth in there maſſe-book) that he would fauourably looke vpō, and receiue thoſe hoaſts, which they there offer vntounto him, for the ſoules of ſuch and ſuch. Ex miſsâ pro defunctis, ex ſecretis. Werefore, I dare be bolde to ſay, that ſo far of is it, that their Prieſthoode is of Gods ordinaunce, that moſt certainly it is of Sathans owne deuiſing, and is moſt iniurious to the death and paſſion of Chriſt, and therefore Antichriſtian. Howbeit, ſeeing you hauehave left Caluins aſſertion, that it is not of God; ſtanding without any refutation, and ſo are contented (vntil you better aduiſe your ſelfe, what to ſay againſt it, to let it ſtand ſtill) in the meane ſeaſon to render vsus account, of your cōming vntounto it, vponupon condition, that wee will make ready our papers, when you hauehave anſwered vsus, to anſwere you, how we come by our Miniſtery: I am content to accept of this your condition, and ſo to heare firſt, what you can ſay, for the iuſtifying of your vocation, and after when and where you cal for it, to yeeld you an account of ours. But then in the meane time I muſt put you in minde, and pray the gentle reader to marke it, that for any thing you hauehave ſaied yet, Caluins aſſertion againſt your office of Prieſthoode it ſelfe, that it is not of God, ſtandeth in full force.

You write, that you are called to this eſtate according to the ordinary way, that is (ſay you) by the right ſucceſſion of Biſhops & paſtours, and by y^e cōtinuāce of one catholique faith, deriued from y^e Apoſtles to our daies, w^tout y^e interruption of it vniuerſally. This you ſay indeede, but what hauehave you either here, or els where in this your notable diſcourſe (for ſo either you or your frends cal it) brought vsus to proue this? you cite here Mat. 5. Eph. 4. & a place out of Eſay, w^t is there Cap. 62.6. (though in your booke it be quoted Sap. 61.) but neither any of theſe, nor al theſe togither do proue your ſaying to be tru. For taking the places in your own ſēce, y^e things therby proued are only theſe, firſt, y^t the tru Catholick faith hath alwaies ſo ſhined, y^t it hath giuē light at al times in one place or other to thē within the houſe, y^t is, y^t be w^tin the true Catholick Church & to ſuch as be neare p. 9thereūto and within the ſight thereof: and that Chriſt wil hauehave continually euen vntill his ſecond comming, and vntill his Church bee growen to her ful perfection, his trueth continued in his Church, by faythfull Paſtours and Miniſters: and to this ende ſerueth alſo (in your opinion) your ſimilitude taken from a materiall building, which cannot be perfected without continuance of workemen vntill it bee done: which yet caryeth with it a diſſimilitude, euen in the thing wherein you reſemble it vntounto the Church. For we ſee by daily experience, that in material buildings, if they be great, there are often tymes great and many interruptions, and ceaſings of the workemen, and yet in the ende the building well enough prefected. But bee it that theſe places proue theſe things, and that your vnapt ſimilitude hath no vnfitnes in it, what is all this to the purpoſe, doth it hereupon follow, that you come to your offices of Prieſts & Biſhops as you hauehave ſaied? Becauſe Chriſt hath alwaies & will to the ende preſerue and cōtinue the light of his trueth, by the faithful miniſtery of ſome in his church (which is a thing which we alwaies hauehave conſtātly & firmely beleeued to be true, becauſe he hath had, hath, and wil euer vntounto the ende hauehave, a holy catholicke Church, againſt which the gates of hel neither hath at any time, doeth, nor euer ſhall, vniuerſally preuaile) ſhall it hereupon follow, that therefore your Prieſts & Biſhops are the mē, whom Chriſt hath alwaies and yet doth vſe to this ende? or that amongſt thē, there hath alwaies beene the right ſucceſsion in one Catholicke faith? Their is none ſo ſimple, but he may eaſily ſee, that there is no neceſſary coherence betwixt this antecedent and conſequent. For Chriſt might hauehave, and indeede hath had (as I ſhew after in my fourth chapter) by whō effectually from time to time, he hath both continued his Church and his trueth therein, though your Biſhops & Prieſts hauehave a long time ſhewed thēſelues his moſt deadly Antichriſtiā enemies, in oppoſing thēſelues with main & might againſt both his Church & truth. The matter you hauehave vndertaken to ſhew vsus is, by what right you exerciſe your miniſtery, or how you were called to that eſtate: for that, as a thing more eaſy, you rather hauehave choſen to doe, then to proue your office of Prieſthood it ſelfe to be of God, though indeede this be the more material point, & which you ſhould rather hauehave taken vponupon you to proue: but that it ſeemeth, like a prudent man, you tendered more your owne credit, which you foreſaw, was like to take a foile, if you ſhould hauehave attempted to doe this, which by no colour or ſhew of p. 8duplicate page p. 9duplicate page p. 8duplicate page p. 9duplicate page p. 10ſound reaſon you could, then the credit of your cauſe, w^c you could not but foreſee, muſt needs lye in the duſt, this being left vnproued, whatſoeuer you ſhould ſay cōcerning the other. But ſeeing whatſoeuer become of your cauſe, it hath pleaſed you, like a wiſe mā, to ſlip frō vnderunder this burdē, which was to heauy for you, & now y^t only thing y^t we muſt expect at your hāds at this time, is, to ſhew that your maner of cōming vntounto them yet is honeſt, good and lawful: I pray you, in good earneſt, conſider and weigh with mee a little, what you hauehave ſaied to proue this. Al you ſay, is (as I noted before) y^t you are called by y^e ordinary way thereūto, that is, as you expoūd your ſelfe, by the right ſucceſſiō of Biſhops & paſtors, & by the continuāce of one Catholick faith, deriued frō the Apoſtles to our daies, w^tout interruptiō of it vniuerſally: nothing at al you hauehave added, that ſo much as ſauoreth of any proofe of any one point of this your aſſertiō, & therfore ſeing your word, is, nor ought to be of more credit w^t vsus, then the bare partial word of an aduerſary in his own caſe, your frēds might hauehave thought themſelues euen aſmuch beholden to you, if you had as wel giuen ouer the taking in hand, to proue their maner of comming to their offices to be of God, as you hauehave, to proue the offices thēſelues to be of his ordināce. If you had mēt or at leaſt could in earneſt hauehave proued the thing you vndertooke, you ſhould hauehave firſt made it appeare, what is requiſite by Gods ordināce in the lawfull outward calling of the miniſters of his Church, & then hauehave ſhewed vsus, y^t your Popes, Cardinals, Biſhops & prieſts hauehave alwaies & doe ſtil ſo cōe by their offices: but this was to hauehave dealt too plainely, and in following of this courſe, you knew wel enough, you ſhould be enforced too too openly to betray the badnes of your cauſe. For who is there of any learning and reading, but he knoweth, that the ordinary way whereby theſe your officers hauehave come now theſe many 100 yeares to their roomes, is as farre differing from the ordinary waie appointed by Chriſt for his miniſters to come to their places by, as the eaſt is from the weſt. You therefore, like a wilie and ſubtle fox, thought it no good pollicie, this way to ſeeke to iuſtifie your calling or maner of cōming to your prelacies, & yet rather then you would ſeeme to be able to ſay no more for your maner of comming thereunto, then for the offices themſelues you were diſpoſed, you thought it good, thus brauely and braggingly to ſet a face vponupon it in theſe words, as though you could ſaie enough: and that makes your fault the greater. You hauehave no ſooner vttered this your bare and bold aſſertion, which were ſomewhat, if you could throughlie proue it, but p. 11you are quite ſlipt & gone into the proofe of another matter, which though you proue, yet your aſſertion is neuer the more thereby ſtrengthened and confirmed. For though we graunt you (which alwaies we do moſt willingly) that the Church of Chriſt hath alwaies had in her from her firſt natiuitie, and ſhall hauehave vntounto the ende, ſucceſſiuely in all ages in one place or other, ſuch as hauehave ſhewed the trueth faithfully vntounto others, as hauehave ſhined as lights in their daies ſet vponupon a candleſticke, and as hauehave painefully laboured and ſhall ſtill, to gather together the Saints, to bring them to vnity and perfection in Chriſt: yet neither doeth it follow, that theſe hauehave bene ſo viſible, apparent & glorious in the eies of al men, & that they hauehave ſo orderly ſucceeded one another, and had their ordination one of another in one and ſelfeſame place, and after one and ſelfeſame maner, nor that hereupon it ſhould follow, that this hauing bene in any ſort that then by and by it muſt be granted, y^t yours hauehave entred the ordinarie way, that they are right Biſhops and Paſtors, hauehave had right ſucceſſion alwaies one to an other, and hauehave alſo, which is the greateſt thing of al, had w^tout interruption alwaies the ſound catholicke faith continued amongſt them. For, in ſome ſort, theſe might be in al ages and times, & that effectuallie to ſerue to theſe ends ſo far forth, as ſtoode w^t Gods prouidence, & was according to the variable diſpoſition therof, ſufficiēt to cōtinue his holy catholick Church, according to his good pleaſure, & yet not in that viſible, apparēt & glorious maner, that you pretēd: & ſome he might hauehave to enter into their callings to doe this the ordinary way, though your Biſhops & Prieſtes hauehave not ſo entred, be not right Biſhops and Prieſts, and be ſuch as are deſtitute of al right eccleſiaſtical ſucceſſiō, both in reſpect of perſons, places, times, & trueth. And yet moſt euident it is to eueryevery reader of anie iudgement, that al your proofes in this Chapter, & in the reſt that follow, proue onelyonly, that God alwaies hath had, hath & will hauehave a Church, and therin alwaies ſome teachers of the trueth, and ſome learners and embraces of it. And this the Lord hath had, hath and euer wil hauehave, though your ordinary waie of comming to your places, though your Biſhops and Paſtors, your perſonal and locall, viſible and glorious ſucceſſion, and your ſuppoſed Catholicke truth had neuer beene ſeene or heard of in the world. Yea far more apparently and gloriouſlie ſhould we hauehave ſeene the trueth hereof, if this ordinary waie of yours, theſe Biſhops and Prieſtes of yours, this ſucceſſion and counterfeyght trueth of yours, had not in the p. 12iuſt iudgement of God, for the ſinnes of the world beene the ſtop & let thereof. And yet you either were ſo ſimple your ſelfe, or elſe you thought you ſhould onelyonly meete with ſo ſimple a Reader, as would account the prouing of one of theſe, thus ſeuered and diſioyned the one from the other, the iuſt and due confirmation of the other. But I cannot be perſwaded, that ſuch was your owne ſimplicity, as once to imagine, that the fift of Mathew, Epheſ. 4, Eſaie. 62. or any other proofe that you vſe to that ende, did ſerue at all to proue your entraunce to hauehave bene as you ſaied: I am therefore flat of this minde, and ſo muſt eueryevery man of any wit and diſcretion be (vnleſſe you will giuegive vsus leaue to thinke, that you had neither of both in thus reaſoning) that this was your Romiſh and Popiſh cunning herein, finding your ſelfe vnable to proue any of theſe foure points, that your entrance is by the ordinary waie, that your Biſhops and Prieſts are right Biſhops and Prieſts, that you hauehave had from the Apoſtles right ſucceſſion, and that alſo now and alwaies you hauehave beene in poſſeſſion of the Catholick trueth: you thought it good, confidently, as though their were no controuerſie to be made with you about any of theſe, to aduouch, that you had all theſe to iuſtifie your maner of comming to your offices. And ſo perſwading your ſelfe that you ſhould meete with ſuch franke and liberall Readers, as would eaſily, vponupon this your bolde begging, graunt you all theſe foure for an almes, taking them for giuē, as ſure as though you had them already in your beggers budget, euen for and at the very firſt aſking, you goe on as you doe, ſuppoſing that your Reader is already wonne to this, to imagine that all and eueryevery place of ſcripture that ſpeakes of right Biſhops and paſtours, and of their lawful calling & ſucceeding one another frō age to age in the trueth, muſt needes be vnderſtoode of yours. But with this conceit & phanteſy of yours, howſoeuer you may preuaile with men of your owne humour and complexion, that hauehave their wits benummed & blūdered with the drunken & enchaunted cup of the gariſh whoar of Babylon, whiles you take this courſe, you ſet your ſelfe but forth vponupon a ſcaffolde, to bee laught at and derided, as one that hath neither ſounde Religion, nor common reaſon left him, of thoſe that are indeede wiſe, ſober and godly.

Seeing therefore you hauehave ſaied ſo much and proued ſo little, well enough might I euen with the detection, in this ſort, of your vanity, leaue you as ſufficiently anſwered, for any thing you hauehave p. 13ſaied concerning this point. But becauſe I hauehave not taken in …and, onelyonly ſo to anſwere you, as might be ſufficient to take awaie …e power and force from any thing you hauehave ſet downe in this …our diſcourſe, to winne any more to bee of your iudgement then …ee alreadie, but alſo ſo, as, by the grace of God, may bee likely to …ake your owne frendes aſhamed of your dealing in their cauſe, … will both in this, & throughout your booke, for the further bene…it of the Reader, take the paines to follow you frō ſteppe to ſteppe …how crooked ſoeuer your pathes be) & ſo diſcloſe & lay open before …im, not onelyonly the vanity of your proceeding, but alſo the vntrueth …nd groſſe impietie of your words and ſayings.

Wherefore, whereas to iuſtify your maner of comming by your …ffices, you firſt ſaie you come thereunto by the ordinarie way, the Reader is to conſider, that through the ambiguttie of your ſpeech, you ſeeke wilfullie to abuſe him. For you could not bee ſo ſimple, but you knewe and remembred well enough, that as there is a lawfull ordinarie waie ordeined and allowed by God, and therefore accordinglie practiſed in his Church, whereby his Church officers ſhould enter into their callings (whereby if you could hauehave proued yours to hauehave come to theirs, you had indeede iuſtifyed their entrance thereupon) ſo hauehave there beene in tract of time, through the boldnes of men to alter Gods ordinance, and therein to preferre the way deuiſed by themſelues, before that which the Lord himſelfe had preſcribed, many waies both inuented and practiſed, which though they hauehave by cuſtome and long continuance of time growen to be too ordinarie, yet for all that, they hauehave beene and yet are too bad: by anie of which (though in reſpect of one or other of them you maie truelie ſaie yours hauehave entred by the ordinarie waie) yet you hauehave ſaied nothing to proue their maner of entrāce to be holie, good, and of God. But to ſpeake plainelie, and yet no more then I can proue out of your owne Cronicles, your verie Biſhops of Rome, of whoſe lawfull and ordinarie calling you vſe to brag moſt, and of whoſe lawfull entrance and calling (if they bee ſuch heades of the Church as you pretend) the lawfull calling and authoritie of all other inferiour Church officers is deriued and depends, for manie hundreth yeares, a number of them hauehave ſo got to their Prelacies, that vnleſſe you account thoſe in your ſence to hauehave come to their places by the ordinarie waie, that in compaſſing of them hauehave broken all good order both of God and man, I wonder with what p. 14face you durſt thus indefinitely & generally ſay of all your Biſhops and paſtours, that they hauehave bene called to their eſtate by the ordinary way. For furious braules, monſtrous and long contentious, force of armes, and cruell bloudſhed, hauehave beene the ordinary waies, whereby a great multitude of them hauehave entered, as namely and for exāple, theſe: Symachus, Boniface the ſecond, Pelagius the firſt, Boniface the third, Conō, Sergius the firſt, Zozimus, Paul the firſt, Conſtantine the ſecond, Eugenius the firſt, Hadrian the ſecond, Formoſus, Leo, Benedict, Gelaſius the ſecond, Honorius the ſecond, Innocent the ſecond, Gregorie the tenth, Nicholas the third, Clement the fifth, Vrban the ſixth, and ſundry others. Bribery alſo hath beene the ordinary way, whereby many of them hauehave clymed into that chaire, as namely, Iohn 13. Boniface the 7. Gregory the ſixth, Silueſter the third, and moſt of late daies. Nicromācy, art magicke, and plaine barganing with the deuill for it, hauehave beene ordinary waies alſo, whereby a ſhamefull ſort of them hauehave compaſſe… that place. For, from Sylueſter the ſecond, vntounto Gregory the ſeuenth, including them, there being an eighteene or nineteene Popes, your owne Cardinal Benno ſhewes, that the greater number of thē ſo came to their roomes, and ſince wee reade, that Alexander the ſixth got it the ſame way. It appeares alſo in the ſaied Benno, that the greater nūber of the Popes from Sylueſter the ſecond, to Gregory the ſeuenth, were poiſoned, or at leaſt by violent means diſpatched by ſuch, as for thēſelues & their frends, thought good ſo to make the waie readier thereūto, for themſelues or ſome others whom they fancied. And to the ſame ende, other authours write, that very many of them beſide, hauehave in like maner from time to time ſince, beene ſodenly vnpoped, that others the ſooner might bee popt into their roomes. Yea Genebrard a late writer, and a great frend to the Roman Religion and Biſhops, in his fourth booke and tenth age in his Cronology, by the plaine euidēce of the truth, is inforced to confeſſe, that from the yeare 884. to the yeare 1048. that is, from Iohn the eighth to Leo the 9.50. Popes all in a rowe ſucceſſiuely entred not by the dore, but by the poſterne gate, whom he calleth Apoſtaticall monſters, and in whom hee graunts that lawfull Apoſtolicke ſucceſſion was diſordered. And he that reades Luitprand lib. 3. cap. 12. & 13. ſhall finde teſtified by him, that the two famous harlottes Theodora the mother, & Marozia the daughter, were in their times the makers and marrers, and in effect the only ſetters vp and diſpatchers p. 15againe of Popes at their pleaſures. Whereupon it came to …aſſe (as it there appeares) that Pope Chriſtopher, hauing ſhoo…ed out his predeceſſour Leo, by the ayde of his concubines, he …as quickly ſhouldred out againe, by one Sergius, who got the …lace from him, as partly by much brawling and fighting, …o eſpecially by the helpe and ſupport of his paramour Marozia.

Againe (as he ſhewes) hence was it, that Pope Laudo Iohn the …leuenths father by adultery, was by the meanes of Theodora his ſonnes paramour depoſed, that ſo ſhee might bring him nearer her, from Rauenna to Rome: whom againe her daughter Marozia, hauing found the meanes to ſmoother, ſhe, without conſent either of people, or cleargy, ſet vp in his roome a baſtard of hirs, which ſhe had by Pope Sergius. And though he were ſhortly after thruſt out again, yet by the helpe of his olde frende Marozia, the matter was ſo handled, that both Leo the ſixth, and Stephen the ſeuenth, his ſucceſſours, by poiſon were quickely rid out of the way, and ſo hee (called Iohn the twelth) recouered his place againe. Likewiſe her ſonne Albericus ſonne Iohn the thirteenth, as he cāe of a filthy generation, ſo being a moſt filthy mā himſelfe, he had his preferment to that place by the like meanes. And in like ſort we read, that Vrbā the ſecōd cāe to that roome, by the meanes of his louer Mathilda. Alſo craft and ſubtlety in ſupplanting and coſening their predeceſſours, hath aduāced many to the Papacy. For Vigilius got it by crafty accuſing of Syluerius, ſo procuring his depoſition, to make way for himſelfe thereunto. By the ſame dore of craft and coſenage entred Stephen the ſecond, Martin the ſecond, Boniface the eight, and many others. And when theſe hauehave beene the ordinary waies, whereby ſuch a rabble of theſe your moſt holy fathers, and higheſt Prelates hauehave come to their eſtates, is there any likelihoode to the cōtrary, but that their inferiours of all ſorts, in their times learned of them to enter in like maner? For what reaſon is there, that a man ſhould not be reſolued, that downe from the head ſo corrupted, ran corruption ouer all the body, euen down to the loweſt Hedge-prieſt? And in very deed, euer ſince theſe hauehave beene the ordinary waies, whereby theſe your head Prelates hauehave compaſſed their places, all ſtories, to the euerlaſting ſhāe of your Synagog, do moſt vſually & notoriouſly ſhew, how that there was nothing more ordinarie, then for the next great Prelates vnderunder them (as Cardinalles, Biſhoppes and Archbiſhoppes) to come to thoſe their dignities, by the like meanes or by worſe, p. 16as namely for fauour borne them for the ſinne not to be named, for that they were the Popes baſtards, or for ſome other ſuch like … honeſt cauſe. For Innocent the eighth Pope of that name, was firſt made Prelate of Sauō, then of Melphit, & then Secretary to Pope Sixtus, and Cardinall of Cicilia for his rare beauty, & not for any other good quality in him, and Iulius the third of very late daies promoted none ſooner, then yoūg wāton Ganymedes, eſpecially one of that ſort, a very lad called Innocētius, to be Cardinal, whom he had long filthily fanſied, & then ſtill did. And to bee a Popes Baſtar… either in the firſt or ſecond degree, hath of long time beene a rea… way to ſuch preferments. And therefore we read, that Iohn the eleuenth Pope Laudoes Baſtard, by the helpe of Theodora his paramour, not onelyonly (as I hauehave ſaied) in the end became Pope, but before eaſily got firſt to be made Biſhop of Bononia, and then Archbiſhop of Rauenna. Caeſareus a baſtarde of Alexander the ſixt, for this was by him made Cardinall, & Paul the third ſtretched his fauour ſo f… in this regard, that hee made one Alexander ſonne to his baſtarde ſonne Petrus Aloyſius, and one Aſcanius ſonne to his baſtarde daughter Cōſtātia, Cardinals. And the writers of his life doe him wrong, vnles he himſelfe before he was Pope, obteyned the Cardinals hat, & to be Biſhop of Hoſtia, by deliuering his ſiſter Iulia Farneſia to be concubine to Alexander the ſixt. Sure I am, that our Cronicles are much troubled, and a very great part therof conſiſts, in diſplaying the brawles, contentiōs, and dangerous conſequents, that hauehave ariſen (ſometime to the ſhaking both of our Kings eſtate and kingdomes alſo) about the election here of the Archbiſhops of Canterbury. Yea in them it appeares, that few elections either of them, or of any other great biſhops of this lande in theſe latter daies of the iollity and ruffe of the Roman Prelates and their Romiſh & Antichriſtian Hierarchy and religion, hauehave paſt here in England of late yeares, whiles your kingdōe ſtoode, but thereabout either there hath bene notorious brawles and cōtentions amōgſt the electours or els ſome other famous diſorder and corruption, and likewiſe we may be ſure it fel out in other places and countries. And as for your ordinary Prieſts, for the moſt part, al the world is witnes, ſo doltiſh and ignorant they hauehave beene, that there was no ordinary way for them to enter, but that Balaam was the Biſhop, Iudas the patrone, & they were affectioned as Simō Magus. In Boniface the ninthes time, he had an Antipope called Benedict, but howſoeuer otherwiſe p. 17…hey raged and raued one againſt another, in this they both agreed, …o make open ſale and marchandize of all Church liuinges, the …le began the fifth of Nouēber in the fifth year of Bonifaces reigne …e that would giuegive moſt ſpedde beſt, yea his couetouſneſſe was ſo …otorious herein, as that Theodoricus writing his life, confeſſeth …ot onelyonly thus much, but further, that he had ſeene one benefice ſold …o many men in one weeke, yea the former ſale reuoked, though vn…er ſeale, and the benefice ſolde to another, that offred more, the firſt …eing well chidden for going about to coſen the holy father for ſee…ing to get the benefice at an vnderualew: by meanes whereof & as …ee writeth for that this Pope was before a ſturdie yonker but of …0. yeares of age when he was choſen Pope, and one ſo ignoraunt, …hat he could neither write, ſing, nor vnderſtand ſo much latin, as to …nderſtand the ordinary pleading of aduocates: dolts alwaies at his …ands ſped beſt. And yet this fellow was Pope aboue 200. yeares …go: whereby though it appeare, that to enter by this dore of Simo…y, be a very ancient ordinary way, for Popiſh Prieſts and inferiour Prelates, to enter into their dignities by, yet this is not the ancien…eſt preſident they hauehave: for Vrbanus the ſixth Pope before this Gregory the ninth, hauing cauſed a Cardinall of his in one day, to …epoſe, rack, torment and ſpoile all the Prelates of Cicilia, becauſe they would not aide him, according to his minde, againſt his Amipope Clement. 7. was by this way eaſily entreated, within a very ſhort time, to let into their roomes 32. new Biſhops, Archbiſhops & Prieſts how ignorant he cared not, ſo that otherwiſe they would be of his faction and ſatiſfy his humour, as the foreſaied authour teſtifieth. And Platina in the life of Silueſter the third, 300. yeares before either of theſe, to note both the antiquity and diſſent of this ordinary way, by occaſion of Benedict the ninth his ſelling of his Papacy to Gregorie the ſixth for 1500 ^l. (as ſome write) & many like tricks that he belike had obſerued amongſt them, through the notorious euidence of the thing, is enforced to write, that then euen the Papacy it ſelfe was come to that point, that hee that would goe beyond others not in holines of life and learning, but in large giuing and ambition, he onelyonly, the good being oppreſſed and reiected, ſhould attaine to that degree of dignity: which faſhion I would to God ſometimes (ſaieth hee) our times had not retained. And when hee hath ſaied thus, he addeth, but this is but litle, we ſhall, vnles god preuent it, ſee hereafter ſometimes far worſe things. This man liued and p. 18floriſhed in the time of Paulus 2. who was Pope aboue 400. yeares after Sylueſter the third, & ſurely herein he was, al the world knoweth, both a true reporter and prophet, and ſince it hath not bee… better, but rather worſe, euē from the head to the foote in that kingdome of the Pope. His teſtimony cannot but preſſe them of th… Religion and Synogog very much, becauſe it is well knowen, th… hee, both for his office and opinion, was very partiall of that ſide. Wherefore euen theſe things conſidered, eueryevery man ſeeth, y^t thou… it were graūted you, that your Biſhops & Prieſts, hauehave entred al… time ſome ordinary & cōmō way, that yet thereby would ariſe a ver… ſlender iuſtification, of their maner of comming to their offices. Y… in this caſe, ſomewhat further to poſe you and to preſſe you, the r… der is further to be aduertiſed, that beſide the moſt ancient and … pure ordinary way of entring of Church officers, vſed and contin… in the primatiue Church, vntil Conſtantines time at the leaſt, the… hauehave ſince, according to the varietie of times, and diuerſitie of the… ſtates of the Church, bene ſundry other things appointed & preſcr… bed, by the decrees of ſinods & councels, ordinarily to be obſerued … the election & ordinatiō of ſuch officers, which hauehave moſt ordinaril… bene broken and neglected, in the entrāce vponupon their offices, of … of yours, now theſe many years. For proofe whereof, I refer the re… der no further, but to the cōſideration, firſt of your maner of cōmi… to your places, for theſe laſt three or foure hundreth years; & to th… canons, that your owne frend Gratiā, concerning this matter, h… hudled together, diſt. 61. 62. & 63. for going no further, thereby ſh… he finde, in that the conſent of the Emperour, the aſſent of the people, the peaceable and orderly election of the cleargie, hath bee… a long time wanting in many of yours, that indeede you cānot tr… ly ſaie, that ſuch of your Church officers hauehave entred by any ancient ordinary way, either preſcribed by the word, or the ancient canons of the Church, of a long time. Now the election of your Popes is onelyonly by the Cardinals, which to be the ordinarie way of their entrance, was firſt deuiſed and enacted in Nicolas the ſecond time (as it is noted diſt. 23.) which was a 1000. yeares and more after Chriſt; and after, vnderunder Alexāder the third, it was further confirmed in a Lateran councell, held in his time about the yeare 117…. Nicolas the firſt began, & Hadrian the third concluded the quite remouing and ſhutting out of the Emperour, from their election, which was about the yeare of the Lord 889. Iohn 19. firſt ſhut o… p. 19…he people about the yeare 1003. And ſo then about 70. yeares after, his decree of Nicolas the ſecond was made. If therefore, including our Biſhops of Rome, you meane by the ordinary way of their en…rance, this, decreed by Pope Nicolas the ſecond, then they that …ere before entred not by that ordinary way. And if you looke v…on his decree well, & the decrees of others ſince made to back that, …ou ſhall finde not halfe the Popes that hauehave beene ſince, to hauehave en…red orderly. Yea in reading of the ſtories of the Church, the de…rees of the councels, and your owne Canon lawe, though I finde …t the leaſt, that there hath beene ſince Conſtantine, a ſixe or ſeuen …euerall ordinarie waies, decreed and vſed for their entrance, yet I …an hardly finde, that three Biſhops of Rome ſucceeding one ano…her immediately, did orderlie in eueryevery reſpect enter the ordinarie …aie, then in force and vſe. For whereas I finde, that the Empe…ours and the Princes of Italy, or his deputy in his abſence, by cu…tome, their owne right, intereſt and authority therein, and after by …he decrees of Hadrian the firſt, about the yeare 773. and of Leo & Clement in three ſeuerall councels in their times conſented vntounto, …ore a principall ſtroke therein a great while: yet whiles that was …eceſſary in the ordinarie way of entrance thereunto, I finde, that many entred not onelyonly without their conſent, but quite contrary to …heir mindes, as one may reade in the liues of Pelagius the 2. Stephen the 4. Hadriā the 2. Martin the 2. Hadrian the 3. and diuers o…hers. And likewiſe, whereas ſometimes, as in the time of Conſtantine the 4. by the Emperours owne conſēt, other ſometime without his conſent, as by the decree of Pope Stephen the 4. the Emperour was not to meddle therein, but onelyonly the cleargy & people of Rome, yet euen then the ſtories ſhew, that ſundry had their entrāce, not only not without, but altogether by the meanes of the Emperours, yea after the decree of Hadriā the 3. many yeares. Likewiſe, though for the auoiding of braules & contentions, in the election of the Roman Prelates, Leo the 8. gaue abſolute authority to the Emperour, to chuſe the Pope, about the yeare 994. & in Clement the 2. time, vponupon that conſideration, the Romans themſelues alſo gaue ouer their right therein vntounto him, inſomuch that beſides others, Leo the ninth and Victor the ſecond, had the place by his abſolute authority: yet, euen whiles this ſtoode as the ordinary waie agreed vponupon, manie entered otherwiſe. To bee briefe, I dare confidentlie ſet it downe, for I am able to proue it by their owne ſtorie writers, how p. 20often ſoeuer they hauehave varied and altered their ordinarie way of entering vntounto that place, ſometimes by admitting the Emperours conſent thereunto, ſometimes by ſhutting it out quite, ſometime by giuing him his due right, and ſometime more and ſometime leſſe, or howſoeuer: in like ſort they hauehave varied both as touching the Clergy, and the people that ſhould hauehave to deale therein, wherein they hauehave had as many diuerſities as about the former, or finally whatſoeuer concerning other circumſtances of their election, they hauehave thought good to adde or detract from the ordinary way before in force, they hauehave neither long continued anie one ordinary waie, neither during the time of the continuance thereof, hauehave they followed inviolably that waie. And as it hath beene with that chiefe Sea of theirs, ſo hath it bene with other inferiour places, ſo that no conſtancie hath beene in anie of their ordinarie waies of entrance, nor yet anie due care either carefully to obſerue the canōs of the ſcripture, the canons of the Church, or their owne decrees made for that purpoſe. In their late councell of Trent, by ſundry canons and Chapters therein ſet downe, it appeares, that they there aſſembled, conſidering what horrible abuſes there had beene in the election and ordination of vnfit Biſhops and Prieſts amongſt thē, thought it moſt needeful (to preuēt the like for the time to come) to deuiſe & to enact ſūdry holeſōe canons, to breed a learned preaching miniſtrie, and to procure an election and ordination thence forth for them, as free from corruption, as in their wiſedomes they could conceaue: but yet who knows not, but that thoſe canōs hauehave ſince bine and yet are, as careleſly lookt vntounto, and herein kept amongſt them, as though they had neuer beene made. Wherefore, to conclude this point, let Albine and neuer ſo many more of them, brag that they enter by the ordinary way, vnles thereby he meane a way that ordinarily is naught and corrupt, he ſpeaketh more then euer he can proue, and ſo therein hath ſaied nothing to proue the comming of their Biſhops and Prieſts vntounto their places to be lawfull and good.

And yet if we will beleeue him, their Biſhops and Prieſts are right Biſhops and Prieſts, but if it be true, as it muſt needes bee, that they can not be ſo, who neither hauehave a lawfull way of entraunce to their offices, nor yet their offices are themſelues of Gods ordinance, then it is apparant euen by that which I hauehave ſaied already, that neither their Biſhops nor Prieſtes are right Biſhops nor Prieſts. Their Biſhops from the higheſt to the loweſt, by their vſage p. 21and practiſe chalenge and take vntounto themſelues, an office of another eſſence and nature, then the office that Chriſt and his Apoſtles hauehave left and preſcribed to true Biſhops, and ſo likewiſe is it with their Prieſts. For one vniuerſall and head Biſhop ouer all others (ſuch as they take their Pope to be) Chriſt neuer ordeined, for he made all his Apoſtles by giuing them all equall, one and ſelfeſame commiſſion, his officers equallie to beare for their times the generall and vniuerſall care of ouerſight, ruling, ordering and directing his Church; and to bring it to full perfection, aſcending into heauen, when he was diſpoſed this waie in beſtowing Church officers vponupon his Church, by the miniſtery of his word and ſacraments, to conſummate it vntounto the ende, beſides theſe, as inferiour miniſters, hee gaue onelyonly, as you may read Epheſians the fourth, Euāgeliſts, Prophets, Paſtours & teachers, where neither your Popes, Cardinals, nor Maſſe-prieſts, are once remēbred. The matter wherein the full execution of the off ce of al the miniſteries cōſiſteth, that Chriſt hath left vntounto his Church, is, duely & ſoūdly to feede Gods people committed vntounto them, with heauenly foode, by painefull and diligent preaching vntounto them the word of God, and miniſtring vntounto them the ſacraments, and rightly and oderly to gouerne the Churches of Chriſt, by the adminiſtration of eccleſiaſticall order and diſcipline, which are things, that the greateſt and fatteſt in your Romiſh Synagog, thinke themſelues little or no whit at all bound vntounto. Theſe things are too baſe matters for your Popes to be occupied about, their office conſiſts, and therefore they accordingly muſt buſie themſelues in other matters: as namely, in making and marring, in ſetting vp & putting downe ſeculer Princes, as they call them, in ſtudying by all meanes faire and foule, to mainetaine and to enlarge their authority and patrimony, & in deuiſing by a thouſād waies, though neuer ſo couetouſly, tyrānouſly & inſatiably, to gather together infinite ſums of money, to buy or to winne by force of armes, great principalities for their baſtards, nephews and neeces, to ſpend in the perſecuting & ſubduing better Chriſtiās thē thēſelues, to build ſumptuous pallaces, banquetting houſes, & temples to ſhroud idolatry & idols in, coſtly beutified, the better to intice men for their further aduantage, to commit ſpirituall whoardome with them. In and about theſe things, your Popes now, theſe many 100. yeares hauehave ſpent their wits, & all theſe parts of the world, and all Croniclers of any credit, can and wil teſtify. p. 22If they hauehave any leaſure from theſe affaires, then they muſt ſhewe themſelues not to hauehave beene idle and fruitleſſe in deuiſing ſome newe ceremonie, in adding ſome patch or other to their Church ſeruice, in proclaiming the croſſe againſt the Turke, for the recouery of the holy land, in publiſhing ſome Iubile and indulgences, in ſetting vp ſome new order of Religious men, for the better ſupport of their kingdome, or at leaſt in plotting and contriuing ſome conſpiracy or trecherous deuiſe, to ſupplant and murther ſome Chriſtian Prince, that hath drawen or is like to draw his people from their Antichriſtian Religion. And your other Biſhops occupation lieth moſt in bleſſing with their fingers, in conſecrating of their vnholy holie Chriſme, in chriſtening of belles and Churches, in ordering vnorderlie and contrary to their owne canōs, of an idolatrous and new found ſort of Prieſts, & in running vp & downe fondly and ſuperſtitiouſly, to miniſter the ſacrament, as they count it, of confirmation: ſcarſe the tythe of them euer had either ſkill or will to preach. And as for your Cardinals, as they are of an order but of a late deuiſe, ſo by their behauiour we can not iudge their office to lie in any thing elſe, but to ſerue the Popes turne, for the better ſetting forth of his magnificence at home, and to bee his agents in forraine kingdomes, the eaſelier to contriue his purpoſes their. They are and hauehave beene a long time (their firſt natiuity conſidered) notable fellowes to haūt and maintaine the ſtewes at Rome, and to deuoure and to conſume, in ryot, vanity and impiety, all the Biſhopricks and benefices that they could heape together, without any care for the good of the people: and the vſe of them hath beene, to brawle and to breede ſciſmes in chooſing of Popes, and to ſtur al coales, and to moue eueryevery ſtone, as faſt as they could one after another, to thruſt into that place. Now to come to your ordinary Prieſtes, though the matter of teaching and miniſtring of ſacraments, eſpeciallie was poſted ouer vntounto them, and vntounto Friers, yet either were they not able to doe it, which was the condition of moſt of them; or elſe if they did it, in ſteade of feeding the people with the milke of Gods word, which onelie Saint Peter warrants to bee without deceit 1. Pet. 2.2. they fed them, with vaine dreames, fanſies, tales and traditions of men. For theſe onelyonly are the grounds of that which is properly now the Romiſh Religion. And in very deede, when they were ordered, their eſpeciall buſineſſe appointed for p. 23them was, to ſacrifice for the quicke and the dead, which is a thing not onelyonly beſide the office of anie true miniſter of Chriſt, but alſo directly contrarie, both to their office, and Chriſts alſo. For they by warrant expreſſely from the canonicall ſcriptures are to teach their people, that Chriſt himſelfe in his owne perſon once for all, when hee dyed for the redemption of man, offered the ſacrifice that for both quicke and deade ſoly and wholy, fully and effectually muſt ſerue the turne for euer, and that in offering this propitiatory ſacrifice, he is an euerlaſting Prieſt, and may hauehave no ſucceſſour, either to offer another ſacrifice, as though this were not ſufficient; or to offer this againe, as though hee had not himſelfe offered it well enough. Beſides, herein commiſſion is giuen them, directlie to peruert Chriſtes inſtitution of the ſacrament of his bodie and bloud. For whereas by the right vſe thereof, thereby ſhould bee offered vntounto man the bodie broken and bloud ſhed of Chriſt, for him to bee fed on, and receiued by him to ſaluation: by their commiſſion and intention herein, they offer theſe thinges to God the father. Further, if wee conſider their reading vntounto the people, all in an vnknowen tongue, their praying to Saints and Angels, their praying for the dead, their blaſphemous imagination, that they by breathing a ſet number of wordes vponupon a wafer cake, make it very Chriſt, and other their ſuperſtitious and magicall incatations and coniurations of water, oyle, ſalt, palmes and other creatures, theſe beeing ſo directly contrary to the word of God as they bee: whatſoeuer here Albine hath ſayed of them, wee may moſt iuſtlie and truely aduoutch them to bee right Prieſtes of Antichriſt, and conſequentlie no right Prieſtes of Chriſt. But ſeeing hee will needes ſo indefinitely and generallie pronounce his ſentence, That their Biſhops and Prieſtes bee right Biſhops and Prieſts, to leaue theſe generall obiections and reaſons againſt them, and to come to ſome particuler examples: firſt I would faine knowe of him, whereas there hauehave beene a twenty three ſciſmes at leaſt in the Papall ſee, ſometime two, ſometime three, ſometime foure, all at once contending that they were right Popes, which of theſe was alwaies hee, that for the time was to be accounted the right Biſhop? And if neuer but one of them, yea ſometimes none of them were right, and therefore they were p. 24driuen to depoſe and ſuppreſſe them, and to ſet vp a newe, they all during their times hauing had manie followers, and many were made Biſhops and Prieſts by them, and ſo ſucceſſ…uelie from theſe, infinite others hauehave had their conſecration and orders, how can wee count theſe right Biſhops and Prieſtes, that were made by ſuch, as had no right to make any? or how ſhall we ſeuer them, that if they fetch their pedegrees, hauehave had their originall from ſuch, from thoſe that are deſcended from them that were made by the right Popes? This nutte will trouble the whole Church of Rome to cracke. But to deale plainely and particularly, what can he or any of them, vnleſſe they be diſpoſed to be conuinced of wrāgling by a cloud of witneſſes, ſay for Ioan the eighth, that in the ende proued her ſelfe, openly in a ſolemne proceſſion, to bee a harlot by her fruitfulnes; for Chriſtopher, Sergius, Laudo, Iohn the 11.12. & 13. all Popes in a rowe, and yet eſpeciallie aduanced vntounto, and kept in that dignity, by their concubines and harlots; for Silueſter the ſecond, and a number of his ſucceſſours, who were promoted by Nicromancy and poiſoning their predeceſſours; or for Hildebrand after called Gregorie 7. who the ſame euening that his predeceſſour was dead, thruſt into the place, not one Cardinall ſubſcribing to his election, rather euen by force then by any meanes elſe? Boniface the eightth got the place by coſening Caeleſtine his predeceſſour, by the ſound of a voice through a tronke through the wall of his chamber: Boniface the ninth was choſen Pope by the Cardinalles at Rome, and yet, as I ſaied before, when they choſe him hee was but twentie yeares olde, he could neither write, nor ſing, nor vnderſtand his latin tongue: Balthazar de Coſſa Cardinall, through feare at Bononia draue the Cardinals to refer the nomination of the Pope, whom there they were about to chuſe, to himſelfe, who by and by choſe and ſet vp himſelfe. Sixtus the fourth, builded a famous ſtewes at Rome of both kindes (as Agryppa writeth of him) and witneſſe Weſſelus Groningenſis, hee graunted an indulgence to the family of S. Lucia, that for the three hoate monethes in the yeare, they might vſe the ſinne not to be named. The like Indulgence graunted Pope Alexander the ſixth, to a Spaniard Petrus Mendoza, Cardinall of Valentia, ſo to abuſe his baſe ſonne Marques Sanatenſis. Mōſtrous are the inceſts, adulteries & Sodomitries, that ſtories report of Paul the 3. And Iulius the 3. his Sodomitrie, p. 25eſpecially with one Innocentius, whiles he was Cardinall at Bononia, whō therefore hee made, being ſtill but a very boy, Cardinal, when he was Pope, is in the ſtories reported very ill of. And the rather, that which in this reſpect is writen of him ſhould ſeeme to be true, becauſe in his time, there was one Hierō. Mutius ſet vp, publickely in bookes to defende certaine filthie and lothſome amarous verſes, writen by one Camillus Oliuus, companion to the Cardinal of Mantua, to one Hanibal Coliuus: & that in his time Iohānes Caſa Archbiſhop of Beneuentum, Deane of the chāber Apoſtolicke, and the Popes Legate in the dominiōs of Venis, wrote in the commendation of that filthy fact of Petrus Aloyſius Paulus 3. his ſonne, with Coſmus Cherius Biſhop of Fane, and that with the applauſe and liking of that time. Now what? Will Albine ſay, for all theſe things, that theſe were right Popes, Biſhops and Cardinals? right and ſeemely they maie be, to ſerue the whoar of Babilon, otherwiſe, ſuch can neuer be right Biſhops and Prieſts to ſerue the Lord Ieſus.

But if neither that which he hath ſaied, concerning their comming to their places, by the ordinary way, nor this vaunt of his, that their Biſhops and Prieſts be right Biſhops and Prieſts, can doe him any good: yet it may be, he hopeth ſome credit will growe vntounto them, in that he hath ſaied, they hauehave their places vy right ſucceſſiō. Indeede ſucceſſion and the deriuation of it without interruption, downe frō the Apoſtles, eſpecially in their line of Popes, is a thing that ſuch as he brag much of, ſaying, that that they hauehave, & we hauehave not, & that therfore their Church & the miniſters thereof, muſt needs be good and lawfull, and ours the plaine contrarie. Howbeit, if we examine this point throughly, we ſhall find, that they hauehave as weake helpe hence, as from the other, or from any thing elſe. For whither they vnderſtand by right ſucceſſion, ſucceſſion without interruption in place, perſon or office, ſeuerally or iointly togither, neither can their Biſhops and Prieſts, as they are now, truelie ſaie they hauehave it, nor yet if they could, they being gone as they be, from the ſoule and life of right Apoſtolicke ſucceſſion, namely the Catholicke and Apoſtolicke trueth, are they euer the better. And of the contrarie, though it were neuer ſo true, that we could not deduce vntounto our preſent Biſhops and Paſtours downe from the Apoſtles or their times, without interruptiō, the line of ſucceſſion, in place, perſon and office; yet we being able to ſhew, as wee are, that we holde one and p. 26ſelfeſame doctrine with them, that would iuſtify our Church, and miniſters ſufficientlie, notwithſtanding the want of the former. This is quickly and eaſily ſayed (you will ſaie) but theſe thinges cannot ſo readily bee proued. I graunt, to proue them will coſt the more paines, otherwiſe the proofe is readie and pregnant enough, and that I doubt not, but (if, with any indifferency, that which I ſhall write to that ende bee marked) ſhall ere it bee long appeare. I ſay therefore, firſt, that the Roman Biſhops and Prieſtes, as they are now and hauehave beene a long time, whatſoeuer they brag, no not their verie Popes (vntounto whoſe right ſucceſſion Stapleton and others truſt moſt) hauehave any right ſucceſſion, either to any Apoſtle or Apoſtolick man, in place, perſon or office. For firſt, they can neuer ſoundly proue (the proofes out of the ſcripture are ſo ſtrong to the contrary, & their proofes out of the ſtories ſo diſagreeing and variable in all circumſtances) that Peter the Apoſtle, whoſe ſucceſſours their Popes claime to be, and from whom al other Biſhops and Prieſts amongſt them, hauehave their vocations and authority deriued, was either euer at Rome, or being there, that, hauing laied aſide his Apoſtleſhip, which was the greater and higher office, he ſate there as Biſhop. Secondly, vntounto this day they cannot agree, of the order of ſucceeding one another betwixt Linus, Cletus, Clemēt & Anaclet. Vrſpergenſis in the life of Claudius, hath notably & at large ſet out, both the difference of opinions in this matter, and alſo the vncertainty of the trueth. Thirdly, none of any learning and reading, can be ſo ignorant in the ſtories of the Biſhops of Rome, but he knowes, that they hauehave not ſucceeded one another, frō the Apoſtles to this day w^tout interruptiō alwaies, neither in place, perſō nor office. For beſids that ſūdry times, many Popes for ſome ſhort time hauehave ſate from Rome, it is notoriouſly knowen, that Clement the 5. about the yeare 1305. tranſlated the Popes ſee from Rome into France to Auinion, where it continued aboue 70. years. And as for immediate & orderly ſucceſſiō of perſons amongſt them, how is it poſſible truely & certainly to define & ſet downe that, ſeing that ſee hath not onelyonly ſtoode vacant, daies, weekes, monethes, and years, ſomtimes 2. ſometimes more, but alſo there hath bene at once ſo often, not only 2. but often 3. & ſometime more, eueryevery one ſtriuing with his fauorers to be accoūted to be the right Pope. And laſtly, by that which I hauehave ſaid before of the nature of their offices of Popes Cardinalles, Biſhoppes & Prieſtes, their practiſe prouing daily my p. 27words therein to be moſt true, how dare any mā, that hath any feare of God, once ſay or think, that they in their offices hauehave any affinity with the Apoſtles, or any Apoſtolicke man? Light & darknes are not more differing the one from the other, then the offices of Apoſtles, Euāgeliſts, Prophets, Paſtours & Doctours in the ancient primitiue & Apoſtolick Church, differeth from theſe offices of theirs. Secondly, whereas I ſayed, though yet they could, which now you ſee they cannot, truely ſay, that they ſucceed the Apoſtles & Apoſtolicke men in place, perſon and office, yet they were neuer the nearer: my reaſons thereof are theſe. Firſt, I finde, that wicked people & wicked Prieſts in the ſcriptures, often hauehave had this kinde of ſucceſſion, to pleade for themſelues, againſt the true Prophets and againſt Chriſt himſelfe, as you may ſee Ierem. 7. verſ. 4. & cap. 8. verſ. 8. Iohn. 8. v. 44. Vriah the Prieſt in King Ahaz time, had this ſucceſſiō frō Aaron, and yet he to pleaſe that Idolatrous king, ſet vp, cōtrary to the commandement of the Lord, an altar according to the patterne that the King had ſent him, of one that hee had ſeene at Damaſcus, 2. King. 16.10.11. The high Prieſts, that withſtoode alwaies Chriſt & his doctrine, and in the ende crucified him, had this kinde of ſuceſſion, & yet none of theſe or their doings were any thing the more iuſtifiable for this. Againe though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorū cōfeſſes, that the Greekes hauehave beene ſciſmatiques and heretiques this 500. yeares, yet he & all the ſort of them of any reading know, that not they only, but alſo the Patriarches of Antioch and Alexandria, and the Biſhops of ſundry other famous Churches in the world, all which likewiſe, they holde, bee ſciſmatiques and heretiques, can & doe make as great ſhew of this kinde of ſucceſſion for the countenancing of their miniſtery and Churches, as they themſelues, for they knowe, that the Patriarch of Conſtantinople doeth deduce his locall and perſonall ſucceſſion from Andrew the Apoſtle; & that the Patriarch of Antioch now ſitting at Damaſcus, doeth likewiſe his from Peter, which he may doe more certainly, then the Popes when they ſate at Auinion could, for it is euident Gal. 2. ver. 11. euen by the ſcripture it ſelfe, that Peter was at Antioch, & ſo is it not that he was at Rome. In like maner, they knowe that the Patriarch of Alexandria, now holding his ſeate at Alcairum, deriues his, from the Euangeliſt Saint Marke. And ignorant they are not, that the Arrians, preuailing as they did, and in the ende hauing got the moſt ſeats of Biſhops to be furniſhed p. 28with men of their dānable opinion, that they for that time were able to holde this plea aſwell as themſelues, and yet I am ſure they will graūt, that none of theſe were therfore, or are therfore to be allowed & iuſtified. They will ſay, I am ſure (for ſo I finde thē plainly to reply in their writings, yea euen Iohn de Albine himſelfe afterward Cap. 7.) that though theſe all can and doe plead ſucceſſion in place, perſon and office, that yet it cannot iuſtifie them, becauſe not onelie they hauehave helde, ſome of them, deteſtable hereſies, but preſently alſo doe ſtill. Indeede I muſt needs confeſſe, that I read, that Macedonius, Neſtorius, and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right ſucceſſiō, by their hereſies at Conſtantinople; that Paulus Samoſatenus did the like at Antioch; and that Dioſcorus and Petrus Moggus did likewiſe at Alexanderia. And I cannot deny, but that I finde all theſe and the Churches vnderunder them ſtill charged, to holde errours and hereſies, but this then withall I infer, the more true that it is, and hath beene thus with them, the more euident it is, of what ſmall acount this perſonall and locall ſucceſſion is of it ſelfe, either to giuegive credit to Biſhops and Paſtours, or their religiō, that can plead that. And this further I adde, if theſe be ſufficient cauſes to make their alleadged ſucceſſion to be of no valew, then there is as great cauſe, why ſucceſſion bragged on ſo much by the Romaniſts, ſhould be reiected, as a thing not worth the naming. For not onelyonly in inferiour places of Biſhops and Prieſtes (which is a thing that they will not ſtriue with vsus about) it is ſo manifeſt, that there hauehave beene many heretiques amongſt them; but alſo euen in their line of Popes (who, as ſome of them hold, cannot erre) there hauehave bene ſundry heretiques alſo. For Tertullian contra Praxeam, writeth of a Biſhop of Rome, that did allow of the Propheſies of Montanus, &, as he ſaieth, therefore ſent letters of communion to the Churches of Aſia, and Phrigia thereabout. And Athanaſius in his epiſtle ad ſolitariam vitam agentes, and ſo alſo Damaſus in the life of Liberius, and Hierō de eccleſiaſticis ſcriptoribus teſtifie, that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to ſubſcribe to Arianiſme. And Honorius died an heretique, as it is to be ſeene in the firſt general councel, Act. 12. & 13. &c. Liberatus alſo Breuiarii Cap. 22. witneſſeth, that Vigilius in ſecret fauoured heretiques. Anaſtaſius the ſecond, fell into a condemned hereſie, as we read Diſt. 19. Cap. Anaſtaſius: and therefore would hauehave reſtored Accatius a condemned heretique. And yet I ſay nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by p. 29the councell of Cōſtance & the ſchole of Paris, for denying in effect the immortality of the ſoule. Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is ſo open and ſtrong, that it hath cauſed their owne frends to condemne them of groſſe flattery, that holde, that Popes hauehave not and cannot fall into hereſie; as any man may ſee that will read Alphonſus contra haereſes lib. 1. Cap. 2. & 4. Lyra vponupon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epiſtle of the councell of Baſill. And that the Romiſh Church doeth now holde as groſſe and palpable errours and hereſies, as they charge theſe withall, if I proue not ere I hauehave done with Albine, I will neuer craue credit either to our miniſters, or to our Churches and cauſe. Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places (to goe on with that which I hauehave vndertooke to proue againſt them, concerning this their brag of right ſucceſſion) whereas thirdly I ſaied, that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apoſtles w^t out interruption, any locall and perſonall ſucceſſion vntounto our Miniſters that now bee, yet as long as ours teach, and our people embrace the ſame doctrine that they taught, wee are well enough, whatſoeuer they ſay to the contrary: that reſteth onelyonly now in this caſe to be proued. But before I come to the proofe of this, leaſt in this my aſſertion I be miſtaken, I would firſt, that it were marked, that I ſpeake but by way of ſuppoſition, that is, if we were not able to ſet downe a continued line, downe from them to vsus without any interruption, for in the 4. Chapter following, I hope, I ſhall ſet downe ſuch a deſcent of our Church from them to vsus, as whereby it may ſufficiently appeare, that there was neuer age nor time ſince, but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers. Secondly, I would hauehave it alſo vnderſtoode, that my meaning is, though it were ſo, that wee could not make recitall or demonſtration of any ſuch deſcent or ſucceſſion: in that proceſſe of time, diſtance of place, and the force and ſubtlety of our enemies kept vsus from knowing their names, perſons and places; that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Chriſt amongſt men, I conſtantly holde and beleeue, that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted ſucceſſion of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth, whereof his Church conſiſtes, euen from the firſt beginning thereof, and ſhall bee to the ende. OnelyOnly this is it that thereby I am contented bee inſinuated, that the Churches of Chriſt, if they p. 30can proue, that they are taught by ſuch miniſters as God doeth raiſe vp vntounto them, according vntounto his good pleaſure, whither ordinarily or extraordinarily, and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Chriſt and his Apoſtles taught (witnes the canonicall ſcriptures) that then, they are to be accounted Apoſtolike and holy Churches of God, and that in ſuch a caſe, eſpecially in and after great perſecutiōs, ruines & long oppreſſions of their mēbers & children, they neede not to be daunted nor diſcouraged, neither in reſpect of their miniſters and teachers, nor in reſpect of their doctrine, though they cannot be able lineally to name the perſons, either by whom their miniſters, downe from the Apoſtles, hauehave had their vocation deriued vntounto them, or elſe by whom euer ſince, that trueth hath beene continued. For howſoeuer in viſible Churches of GOD, whiles they ſtande in floriſhing or vnoppreſſed ſtate and condition, by the fury of perſecutours, there is a ſet order and forme viſibly to bee obſerued in the vocation of Church miniſters, in reſpect of which eſtates and times it is eaſie for them that liue therein, or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof, to make demonſtration of the lyne of ſucceſon: yet when in the iuſt iudgement of God, the Churches ſhall bee oppreſſed, as now a long a time they hauehave beene, vnderunder the tyranny of Antichriſt, then and after ſuch a time, ſuch a thing growes to many not onelyonly harde, but alſo impoſſible. And in ſuch tymes wee finde, that the Lorde of his wiſedome and power to continue yet his Church, rayſeth vp men, though not by the ordinary way vſed in the former tymes, as after the diſperſion of the Church at Hieruſalem, by meanes of the perſecution there, when Stephen was ſtoned, we reade that the Diſciples beeing diſperſed, and namely with them Philip the Deacon, that hee preached, the Apoſtles not aware thereof, for any thing that appears: ſo vnderunder Cōſtātine, Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria, and vnderunder Valens, Aphraates, Flauianus, and Iulianus at Antioch, beeing then but Monkes, who in thoſe dayes were not ſo much as counted amongſt Clarkes, as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. Theſe thinges thus premiſed, thereby not onelyonly my meaning ſhall rightly bee conceiued, but alſo that which I hauehave ſaied, in ſome ſort is already confirmed. But my reaſon indeede is, that true and ſounde apoſtolicke doctrine, in the good prouidence of God towards p. 31his Church, opened and continued in the ſame, though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes, but ſometimes ſomewhat extraordinarily, as he ſeeth need thereof, is and may be ſuch effectuall ſeede to beget childrē vntounto God, and ſo holeſome foode to feede thē, yea euen vntil they grow to a full age & perfectiō in Chriſt Ieſus, that though their teachers cānot ſhew for the defence of their calling, who alwaies ſucceſſiuely in perſon and place hauehave gone before them, yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them, and their people to be Apoſtolique Churches, whereas though they could doe the other without this, it were nothing. And becauſe my aduerſary ſeemeth in this point, & otherwiſe to make great reckoning of the teſtimony of Irenaeus, Tertullian and Auguſtine, I will ſtande to their iudgement in this, whither to ſucceede the Apoſtles in doctrine, be not ſufficient without the other locall and perſonall demonſtrable ſucceſſion, and not this without that. Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter, teacheth vsus onelyonly to obey thoſe Elders in the Church, which from the Apoſtles with the ſucceſsion of their Biſhopricks, hauehave receiued Chariſma veritatis certum ſecundum placitum patris, that is, the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleaſure of the father; for, as for all other, whatſoeuer they pretend (for he excepteth nothing) he there immediatly ſheweth, that abſiſtunt a principali ſucceſſione, that is, they are gone from the principall ſucceſſion, and therefore muſt be ſuſpected. And Tertullian in the very ſame place, de praeſcriptionibus haereticorum, quoted by Albine after, in his 9. Chapter, immediatly after the words there cited by him, wherein he calleth for perſonall ſucceſſion, hath added theſe, Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici &c. but let heretiques deuiſe ſome ſuch thing, for after blaſphemy, what is not lawfull for them (ſaieth hee) but though they doe faine ſome ſuch thing, yet it ſhall nothing preuaile thē. For their doctrine compared with the Apoſtolique doctrine, by the diuerſity & cōtrariety thereof, wil pronoūce, that it hath neither Apoſtle nor Apoſtolique mā to be the authour therof. For (ſaith he) as the Apoſtles taught not amōgſt themſelues contrary things, ſo neither did Apoſtolique men teach contrary things to thoſe that the Apoſtles taught. After this ſort therefore let them be prouoked by thoſe Churches, which though they cannot produce either Apoſtle or Apoſtolique man to bee the founder thereof, in that they were long after planted, as dayly p. 32there bee, tamen in eâdem fide conſpirantes, non minùs Apoſtolicae deputantur pro conſanguinitate doctrinae, yet they agreeing with thē in one faith, are no leſſe to be reputed Apoſtolicke Churches, then they that were planted by the Apoſtles. What can be plainer then this, to ſhewe, that though our Churches could not ſatiſfie his requeſt, in pleading the former ſucceſſion, that yet if they can ſhewe this, that they agree with the Apoſtles in doctrine, that they therefore are far rather Apoſtolicke, then they that can produce the former without this. And though Auguſtine in his 165. epiſtle, and alſo in his fourth Chapter againſt the Manichees epiſtle, which they call their foundation, remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there ſeeme to make great reckoning of perſonall ſucceſſion: yet when he had ſhewed of what force that and ſome other reaſons were with him, he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the ſcriptures, before them all. Wherefore, what I hauehave ſaied, concerning the vanitie of their brag of perſonall and locall ſucceſſion, either to iuſtifie theirs, or to diſgrace our Church or miniſtrie, is ſufficientlie proued.

But all this labour (will Albine ſay) I might hauehave ſpared, for he ſpake not ſimplie of ſucceſſion, but expreſſely of right ſucceſſion of Biſhops & paſtours; and to ſhew what he ment thereby, he expreſly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apoſtles to our daies, without the interruption of it vniuerſally at anie time. Moreouer, I confeſſe that ſundry times after (ſo forcible was the trueth in this point with him) that in wordes he confeſſeth, that perſonall and locall ſucceſſion, without continuance in this trueth, is not the thing that he vrgeth, and yet for all this, this that I hauehave ſaied of this point, is not needleſſe. For beſides that fewe of his opinion, will bee brought to confeſſe thus much, this both in others, and in himſelfe in ſundrie Chapters following, maie be obſerued, that when this confeſſion is made by anie of thē, it is wroong frō them much againſt their wils, for their ſhew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of perſonall ſucceſſiō to be the marke, whereby true Churches, and the miniſters thereof maie vndoubtedly be diſcerned. Againe, if in this he ſpake as hee thinkes, why doeth he make ſo much adoe, about the perſonall and viſible ſucceſſion of Biſhops and paſtours, and neuer ioines this iſſue with vsus, to trie out ſoundly and throughly, whither they or we hauehave this Catholicke and Apoſtolicke trueth. For herein onelyonly lieth p. 33all the controuerſie betwixt them and vsus, and this determined, the queſtion betwixt vsus were quite ended: let them once therefore but proue indeed, that they are in poſſeſſion of this ſoūd trueth, and that alwaies downe from the Apoſtles they hauehave continued therein, if we ioyne not ſtreight with them, and repent vsus hartely of our departure from them, accurſed be we. Yea, if we cannot proue by cō paring their doctrine, with that which wee are moſt ſure the Apoſtles taught, to be both diuerſe from that, and contrary vntounto it (vnderſtanding by their doctrine, as wee doe, that, which is proper to them, and wherein we are againſt them) let vsus for euer leeſe our credit and cauſe. Now for the decyding and determining of this great & maine cōtrouerſie, wee appeale to the canonical ſcriptures, which we knowe are moſt fit and ſufficiēt iudges herein: whereunto, vnles they will deſerue the name of lucifugae (that is, of ſhunners of the light) which for the like cauſe Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time, de reſurrect. carnis, they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchſtone. Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time, the heretiques (as it appeares in their workes) for the triall of their opinions, fled from this touchſtone, and when they were vrged herewith, they behaued themſelues the likeſt theſe our aduerſaries that euer I ſaw. For Iraeneus in his third booke and ſecond Chapter teſtifieth thus of them: cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accuſationem conuertuntur ipſarum, quaſi non rectè habeant neque ſint ex authoritate, & quia variè ſunt dictae, & quia non poſsit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui neſciunt traditionem: that is, when they are reproued by the ſcriptures, then they are turned ſtreight into an accuſation of them, as though they were not right, nor were of authority, both becauſe they are ſo ſet downe, as that variably or diuerſly they may be taken, and becauſe by them the trueth cannot be found out by thoſe, that are ignoraunt of tradition. This notwithſtanding, it appeareth both there and elſewhere, that he calleth them to this triall. And ſo doeth Tertullian de reſurrectione carnis, Cap. 3. ſaying, Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis ſapiunt, vt de ſcripturis ſolis ſuas quaeſtiones fiſtant & ſtare non poſſunt, that is, let thoſe things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen, that onelyonly by the ſcriptures they may determine their queſtions, and they cannot ſtand. And nothing was more vſuall and familier with Auguſtine againſt the heretiques of his time, then to call them, for the triall of the queſtion, both whither p. 34he or they were of the true Church, & alſo whither of them had the trueth, to this way of triall by the ſcriptures. And therefore de vnitate eccleſiae, Nolo humanis documentis, ſed diuinis oraculis eccleſiam demonſtrare, I will not make demonſtration of the Church by the writings of men, but by the diuine oracles, ſaieth he Cap, 3. & again, there alſo he further addeth, preſſing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe: ſunt libri dominici, quorū authoritati vtri que conſentimus, ibi quaeramus eccleſiam, ibi diſcutiamus cauſā noſtrā, that is, there are certaine bookes of the Lord, vntounto the authority whereof we both conſent, there let vsus ſeeke the Church, there let vsus diſcuſſe our cauſe. To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke, and elſwhere very often. Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuerſies betwixt thē & vsus, we muſt needs tel thē, y^t they are not deſirous in earneſt euer to hauehave it appeare, which of vsus hauehave the better cauſe, but as men who know in their owne cōſcience, that their cauſe is bad, they labour to maintaine the credit thereof, as long as they can, by cunning ſhifts & delaies. But yet let them aſſure themſelues, as long as they ſhun this trial, how cūningly & colourably ſoeuer, though ſimple fooles already beſotted with ſuperſtition, & bewitched with popiſh enchantments, vponupon their bare worde & ſtought bragges, that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach, may ſometimes beleeue thē: that yet withal thoſe that hauehave any wiſdō at al, by this means they leeſe quite both the credit of thēſelues & their cauſe. For faith being, as it is, not a wauering & vncertaine conceyt & opiniō of the thing beleeued, but a moſt certain ſure & infallible perſwaſion of the trueth thereof, how can any be aſſured, that the doctrine that he beleeues, is ſuch as he may ſoundly & firmely reſt vponupon, for vndoubted trueth, without euident groūd thereof, out of the writē word of y^e Lord in y^e canonical ſcriptures? For thēce onelyonly Peter dare warrāt the ſincere milke, which cānot deceiue y^e childrē of god, to be fetched, 1. Pet. 2, 2. & therefore, y^t he would hauehave thē to deſire, as new borne babes doe milk, y^t they may grow vp therby. And as for y^e writings & traditiōs of mē beſide, hath not & doth not experiēce daily teach, that they may not nor cānot chalenge y^e preeminence & prerogatiue, alwaies to be free from errour? And eueryevery one that is a Chriſtiā hath learned, that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical ſcripture had in the writing thereof, therein not to hauehave erred at al. Who therfore cā be ſo ſimple (vnles the Lord in his iuſtice hath blinded him, becauſe hee would not ſee y^e trueth ſhyning about him) y^t he ſhould receiue y^t for the ſound catholicke faith, y^t he heares p. 35not firſt frō point to point, proued vntounto him ſo to bee, out of this vndoubted certaine word of God, y^e canonical ſcriptures, what ſhew or colour of proofe ſoeuer otherwiſe be made thereof? And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue, & yet neuer once going about in this his diſcourſe thus to coūtenāce his cauſe & religiō, but as one loth to be brought to this trial, he laboureth moſt earneſtly to diſcourage al mē frō appealing vntounto it, & yet almoſt in eueryevery leafe braggeth and boaſteth, that both his Church, his doctrine and al, are ſoūd & catholick. Wherin howſoeuer he pleaſed himſelfe in that his vaine, any indifferēt mā may ſee, he hath rather bewraied y^e weaknes of his owne cauſe, thē any way (whatſoeuer he hauehave ſaied otherwiſe) impaired the credit of ours. But how vainly hee hath ſwet, euen to the tyring of himſelfe, & his reader about this point, in many chapters: That by y^e ſcriptures controuerſies are not in the church to be tried & determined: whē I come vntounto that place I ſhal god willing ſhew more fully.

In the meane time (Iohn de Albine, to turne my ſpeech to you) I hauing thus examined your anſwere to our demand, how you come to your prelacies and offices, and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof ſuch, as that your calling or cōming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby, thē y^e calling & cōming to their offices amongſt y^e Arriās & Greekes (whō you count heretiques and ſciſmatiques) cā doe, becauſe they cā & could ſay as much, and that as truly for theirs, as you hauehave here ſaid for yours: let vsus now proceed, to the examinatiō of y^e places of ſcripture in this Chapter quoted by you, & vrged as you thought ſtrōgly to your purpoſe. By y^e Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world &c. by chriſt ſpokē properly to his Apoſtles, you would ſeem to proue, y^t therfore right ſucceſſiō of Biſhops & paſtors in y^e Apoſtolique truth, in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare & ſhining like a light ſet on a table. & by that Eph. 4. & Eſa. 62. (w^t your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wiſely) you would infer, y^t not ōly alwaies, vntil Chriſts body cōe to ful perfectiō, there ſhould be doctors & paſtors in the Church to teach the truth (w^c is the moſt that by thoſe places cā be proued) but alſo that they and their cōgregatiōs hauehave euer ben known & viſible, therby (doubtles) meaning ſo viſible (as the reſt of your ſide doe, whē to this end they alleage theſe or the like places) as y^t frō time to time in al ages, mē may be able to nāe thē and their places. Wherūto I anſwere, that you ſtretch theſe places and the words therin further thē their natiue ſence wil bear. For the firſt of theſe, is properly to be vnderſtood of Chriſts Apoſtles onelyonly, who in reſpect of their miniſtery & other graces of the ſpirit that ſhould be powred & beſtowed vpō thē, to beutifie & ſtrēgthē their p. 36extraordinary miniſtery withall, are there by Chriſt comp… the light of the world, to a lighted candle ſet vponupon a candleſticke not put vnderunder a buſhell, lightning all in the houſe, and to a city … on a hil, which could not bee bid: all which afterward they in the … ecution of their Apoſtleſhip, and holy conuerſation, proued to be … tles truely and iuſtly giuen them. This was no propheſie (as yo… would make it) that their ſhould be vntill the ſecond comming … Chriſt, a viſible and alwaies demonſtrable ſucceſſion of ſuch … ſters in the Church without interruption, as theſe metaphor… … ſcribe. And yet I deny not, but that alwaies, in one place or ot… … the Church hath had from the beginning thereof, and ſhall hauehave … the ende of the world, ſuch and ſo many miniſters, whereby the L… … hath alwaies and will continue the life thereof: but that this pl… of Matthew proueth ſo much (which is yet far leſſe then you … enforce vponupon it) I deny. Notwithſtanding I graunt, that all … faithfull paſtours and teachers, according to the nature of their … ling, and meaſure of their gifts, ſo far forth as they therein hauehave … thing common with the Apoſtles, and are found like vntounto thē, … alſo in ſome ſort hauehave theſe things applied vntounto them, & vnderſt… of them: but then withall it muſt be noted, and alwaies remembr… that as there was and is diuerſity of gifts and offices in ſundry … ſpects, betwixt the Apoſtles and common paſtours and teachers, … it muſt follow, that there is proportionable difference, betwixt the apparent light and viſiblenes of the one and the other. The Apoſtles were by their office appointed to preach to all nations, Math. 28. … therefore worthely called in that reſpect, the light of the world: and by their extraordinary giftes they were ſet vp as burning lampes, and mighty cities, to be ſeene & diſcerned a farre off: whereas Biſhops, Paſtours, & Doctours hauehave charges limited vntounto them but of final compaſſe; and giftes but ſuch, as if they giuegive true light, and be ſeene of thoſe that be about them, and neare vntounto them, it is well Howſoeuer, certaine it is (as I ſaied before) that Chriſt doeth not there prophecy or foreſhew, how viſible & lightſome his Paſtours & teachers ſhould be from time to time to the worlds end: but he teacheth his Diſciples and Apoſtles, what by his grace they ſhould be, and ſo others ſucceeding them in the office of teaching, what they ought according to their place, to ſtriue to bee. And I would hauehave this marked alſo, that euen they, to whom Chriſt ſpake properly, were but tolde, that there light ſhould lighten thoſe of the houſe, and p. 37that a citty built on a hill, though it be not hid to thoſe that are …eare vntounto it, yet to thoſe that dwell in another cuntrey farre of, it may bee hid; and that therefore though this place, were as properly to be vnderſtood of al true Paſtors, as of the Apoſtles: that yet …t inferreth not, that their perſons and light ſhould bee ſeene and …iſcerned but of them, that be nigh them, or ioined with them in the …ame houſe, or communion of religion. And as for that in the 4 to the Eph. though it proue, that there ſhall be teachers in the Church to gather togither the Saintes, and to edifie the body of Chriſt, vntill it be brought to perfection: yet it proueth not therefore your viſibility of them; neither doeth that in the 62 of Eſay. For it onelyonly ſheweth, that God would bleſſe his Church with watchfull and diſcreet paſtours, which accordingly after he performed. But there is nothing ſaied, to proue that they and their ſucceſſion in the truth, ſhould be ſo viſible & apparent, as you dreame of. But to awake you out of this dreame, you muſt heare and vnderſtand, that though it be as certaine, that neither the trueth, nor teachers thereof, hath at any time, or ſhal hereafter vtterly faile, or ceaſe to be in the Church, as it is, that the Church if ſelfe cōtinueth euer, & neuer quite ceaſeth: yet thereupon it followeth not, that therefore both the trueth and teachers thereof hauehave ſo continued a perſonall ſucceſſion one vntounto another, or one immediatly after another, and are withal ſo viſible and apparent, that their names and places may ſtraight not onelyonly then, but alwaies after of eueryevery one (as you vponupon theſe places would infer) be pointed and painted out. And for the confirmation & proofe hereof, let vsus briefely take a view of the ſtate of the Church frō time to time, as it is ſet downe vntounto vsus in the holy Scriptures. And in this point, let vsus beginne w^t the Church, when in reſpect of all the former times it was beſt ſetled, & began to hauehave the moſt viſible apparence, namely when vnderunder the conduict, & by the ſeruice of Ioſua God had placed it in Canaan. After this, though God therein had eſtabliſhed a Prieſthood, & tied it Leuit. 10. by his ordināce & promiſe to the tribe of Leui, & though the Church thē had moſt notable promiſes of Gods preſence, & fauour towards it, Pſal. 68.2. Chro. 33.2. Chr. 7. Eſa. 60.62.63. yet for al this, for the ſinnes & iniquities of y^e people, it was driuē oftē into thoſe ſtreights, that ſucceſſiō of prieſts & paſtors was interrupted, & of y^e teachers & of the profeſſors of the trueth there could hardly be made demōſtration. For in the time of the iudges, that followed Ioſua (as it appeareth in the booke of thē) p. 38Cap. 10.13. &c. it had many ſuch ecclipſes, that we read ther, of their general Idolatry, & other ſinnes, & therefore of their ſlauery vnderunder heathē princes, in Gods iuſtice laied vpō thē diuers times, for many yeares togither: & in y^e meane time we finde little mention, either of prieſt or people, that feared God aright. And in Elies time (1. Sa. 2.) the prieſthood & al grew ſo corrupt, that therefore by Samuel Elie is threatned, that the prieſthood (notwithſtanding Gods promiſe Leu. 10.) ſhould be trāſlated frō his houſe: & after we read (Cap. 4.) that y^e very Arke of God was loſt, & takē of y^e Philiſtines. And it canot be denied, but y^e God had his church in Iſrael, in king Achabs time. For Obadiah had thē hid 100 prophets in two caues, 1. King. 18. & God himſelfe told Eliah, that he had 7000 there, that had not bowed their knees vntounto Baal, Cap. 19. & yet Eliah (though there & thē a prophet) was ſo far frō being able to name thē, & to point out, who they were, & what they were, y^e he thought himſelfe in that kingdome to be left alone. And in y^e kingdome of Iudah, where (in cōpariſon of the kingdome of y^e ten tribes) the Church vſually had a more viſible eſtate, yet in the latter end of Salomons raigne, Rehobohās, & Ahiiahs, y^e eſtate thereof was ſo growen out of order, that the prophet Azariah ſaied vntounto king Aſa, their next ſucceſſour there (hauing relatiō to the ſtate of the Church in y^e kingdō, as ſūdry good interpreters take his words) now for a long ſeaſō Iſrael hath bene without the true God, & without prieſt to teach, & without law. 2. Chr. 15. Be like then their ſucceſſiō, & their nāes were not ſo viſible, as you ſeeme to imagin, alwaies they muſt be in the Church. And though by Aſa & his ſon Iehoſaphat, the church was wel reformed again, yet in king Ahaz time (as appeareth 2. Chr. 28.2. King. 16.) groſſe Idolatry ouerſpred the kingdōe ſo, that the tēple was polluted & prophaned, & Vriah the prieſt ioyned w^t the king in the erection of a new altar, & in cōmitting abhominatiō before the Lord, though he were one y^t had his calling by the ordinary way of ſucceſſion of prieſts frō Aarō. Againe, though Ezechiah, ſucceeding Ahaz, for his time did notably rid y^e Church of the abhominatiōs, wherw^t his father had defiled it, yet whē he was dead, his ſon Manaſſes, & his ſon Amon, brought it to as il an eſtate, as euer it was: in ſo much, y^t frō y^e beginning of Manaſſes raign, vntounto the 18 of Ioſiahs, the booke of the law of the Lord was loſt, w^c was wel nigh 80 years: for thē it is noted y^t Hilki…h the prieſt found it, 2. King. 22. In Manaſſes his time it is euidēt, Idolatry opēly preuailed, & the whole Synagogue, ſaue a few prophets p. 39& their folowers erred. If we proceed, during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon, what viſible & apparēt ſhew of any ſucceſſiō of Biſhops & paſtors cā we finde, y^e ioined togither in the exerciſe of Gods religiō? Was not their tēple then deſtroied, & conſequently did not the publick exerciſe of their religiō (w^c for the moſt part was tied therū to) ceaſe? as it was propheſied by Hoſea, Ca. 3. & therfore lamēted by Ieremy, Ca. 3. Lā. Whē Chriſt our ſauiour cāe into the world, ſurely then God had his Church. For it is a moſt certaine article of our faith, y^t ſince it begā, it hath neuer ceaſed, nor neuer ſhal, & yet what viſible ſucceſſion of paſtors and prieſts was there thē in poſſeſſion of ſoūo religiō? Had not they (as euidētly appeareth by y^e ſtories writē by the Euāgeliſts) y^t were in y^e viſible perſonal ſucceſſion, corrupted the doctrine of the Meſsias, both concerning his perſon, and office ſo, that they were the deadlieſt enemies, that he had?

But you wil ſay perhaps, that though theſe thinges were thus in the Church, in the time of the olde Teſtament, yet it may not be ſo in the Church now, in the time of the new. And why ſo? Howſoeuer otherwiſe there be ſome differēce betwixt the Church then and now, in reſpect of the more cleare reuelation now, then then of the doctrine of the Meſsias (whereof that Heb. 8.6. is by ſōe vnderſtood) yet in this reſpect you ſhal neuer be able, by the word writē, or any true ſtory, to proue any neceſſary difference; vnles it be that God had tied then his promiſes to that peculier people, & his ſeruice in great part to their temple, and that he had ordained amōgſt them a prieſthood to continue by natural ſucceſſion ſo, y^t the Church thē had more right to plead viſible ſucceſſion, then now. In the meane time, thus much is gained by theſe ſtories of the Church, in the time of the olde teſtament, that this outward clearenes & viſible ſucceſſion, you talke of, is not an inſeparable note of the true Church, for therby we hauehave ſeene it ſeperated oftētimes from it. And vnles men were peeuiſhly diſpoſed to maintaine a manifeſt vntruth, conuicted ſo to be both by Scripture and experiēce, you would ſee & graūt, y^t it is as ſeparable from the Church now ſince Chriſt. For is it not plainely propheſied 2. Theſſ. 2. that there ſhould come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichriſt, and that very great and effectual? And leaſt you ſhould babiſhly, & fooliſhly (as many of you doe) vnderſtand this of an Antichriſt, that towards the end of the world ſhould come and raigne, & ſeduce men, 3 yeares & an halfe: marke, that here Paul telleth vsus in his time, that this miſtery of iniquity did already worke, p. 40which it did, in that there were falſe Apoſtles there that taught men to ſeeke iuſtification partly by faith, & partly by the workes of the law, as it appeareth by the Epiſtle to the Galathiās: & weigh that he attributeth vntounto him ſuch things, as could not be brought to paſſe in that ſpace: & laſtly conſider, that he teacheth, that though he ſhould be detected and fal into a conſūptiō by the Spirit of Gods mouth, yet he ſhould not be fully aboliſhed before Chriſts ſecond comming. All which make it moſt euident, that Paul here prophecieth of a longer laſting Antichriſtianity, which ſhould trouble the Church, thē yours of 3 years & an halfe continuāce. But leaſt yet, this notwitſtāding, you ſhould imagine, that the fulfilling of this prophecy, & your fāſie of perpetual clearnes & vniuerſality of the church, may ſtād alwaies togither, S. Iohn in his Reuelatiō deſcribing (as you al muſt cōfeſſe) the ſtate of the Church, ſeeth her in a viſion by the great 7 headed Dragō, driuen into the wildernes, and there glad to be fed for a ſeaſon, Chap. 12. And he ſeeth the Babiloniſh harlot (the true patterne of your Romiſh prelacy; by w^c harlot he moſt notably ſetteth forth Antichriſt, & his kingdome) committing fornication, not w^t a fewe, but w^t the Kings and inhabitants of the earth; not ruling or ſitting ouer a few, but (as the Angel there expoundeth the waters, whereon ſhe was ſeene to ſit) people, multitudes, natiōs, & tōgues. Apoc. 17 Al w^c laied togither doe plainly ſhew, that after Chriſt, there ſhould grow ſuch a defection frō the fayth, in the world by the means of Antichriſt, that during the floriſhing of his kingdome, the true Church and her paſtours ſhould be driuen into the wildernes, and ſo for that time ſhould hauehave in compariſon of Antichriſts followers, ſmall viſibility, and ſhew in the eies of the world. Which we ſay, and conſtantly are able to defend, hath beene verified in the late floriſhing of your Romiſh Prelats. Beſides, view the ſtories of the church, & the Cronicles of times, and you ſhal be driuen to confeſſe, that though y^e Church hath had alwaies her two witneſſes (Re. 11) to teſtifie to the trueth, & that they neuer could be extinguiſhed quite by Tyrāts, yet ſhe hath often beene driuen from carying any great ſhewe of viſibility in the world. For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew, doe witnes, that Diocletian, Iouius, and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined, when they cauſed them to bee erected, that they then had quite layed the honour of Chriſt for euer in the duſt, and as it ſhould ſeeme by the circumſcriptions, that they thereupon cauſed to bee engraued, p. 41they ſet thē vp euen of purpoſe to brag, that they had like great conquerers quite extinguiſhed (as they terme it) y^e ſuperſtitiō of Chriſt. Which they would neuer hauehave done, if either they or their fauorites had then ſeene a viſible ſucceſſion of Biſhops and paſtours amongſt them, and had knowen their names, and where to hauehave found them. If wee go on to the time that the Arrians moſt floriſhed, wee ſhall read, that the Emperour Conſtantius ſayed to Liberius, Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum, qui ſolus facis cum homine ſcelerato, meaning Athanaſius, Eccleſiaſt. Hiſt. Theodoreti. lib. 2. cap: 16. whereby it appeareth, that then the Catholiques that withſtood the Arrians, in the ſight of this Emperour, had but a poore viſibility to bragge of. Yea Piggius, your owne man, confeſſeth Hierar. lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poiſon had defiled not a part, but almoſt the whole world: in ſo much that almoſt al the Biſhops not only of the eaſt, but alſo of the Weſt, by one meanes or other were blinded, and no ſmall time continued this hereſie: and this is certaine, that they bragged then as much of viſible ſucceſſion, of the name of the Church, and vniuerſality, as euer ſince you hauehave done: calling the true Chriſtians Homouſians (as you doe now Lutherans, & Zwinglians) as appeareth in the writings of thoſe that wrote againſt them. You may ſee therefore, that theſe weapons or ſtaies, are cōmon to you with blaſphemous and condemned heretiques. Theſe places of Scripture, and experiments therefore cauſed Auguſt. vponupon the 10. Pſalm. & 78. Epiſt. to compare the Church vntounto the Moone, which beſides the monethly waynings, ſuffereth oftentimes ecclipſies. And ſurely vnles we be too too wilfull, al theſe things togither may make vsus out of doubt, that the Church of God both before Chriſt & ſince, hath oftē failed to cary any ſuch outward viſible ſhew in theeies of the world, that it is ſo eaſie a matter, to make at al times demonſtration of her Paſtours & teachers, who they were, and where they taught, as you our aduerſaries would beare the world in hand it is. And therefore for anſwere to this Chapter, to any reaſonable man, this is ſufficiēt.