The Lawfulness of Hearing of the Ministers of the Church of England, Letter
HEER FOLLOWETH A true Copie of a Letter, sent to London written by the Author of the former Treatise, and read in publique, and by the whole consent of the Church was sent to London, in answere to a letter sent by the Church of London to the Church of Amstelredam and Leyden. Which we hauehave thought good to Printe: onelyonly to let the World see, what the Churchs opinion was of hearing in England, the contents wherof followeth.
TO OVR BELOVE IN THE Lord, the Church of Christ in London, Grace and Peace from God the giuer thereof: and in him our louing salutations.
IT may seeme strange vntounto you brethren, and that not vvithout cause that vve should hauehave deferred thus long our answere vntounto your letter; and as vnseasonable that after so long delay, vve should now frame an answere. Our defence in the former case is, partly, the other churchs keeping the same so long in their hands, before they sent it vntounto vsus; and partly their contentions arising about it, of vvhichwhich vve both desired to see some issue, and hoped vvithall, that by occasion thereof, vve might come to communicate our counseills together; as vve conceiue, by your joint letter, your desire to hauehave been. But both in vain. For the letter then, (partly fearing, lest vve should seeme to neglect you: and partly hoping that some vse might be made thereof for after times, and occasions,) we thought it better late them neuer to addresse this our answere: yet so as you are in the first place to be intreated by the Pastor of the church heare, to take knowledge, that he vvas not verie vvilling to read publiquelie that your letter for two reasons, The one, a loathnes that either strangers or brethren, should take knowledge of that in ordinate, and lawlesse course held by such there, as both in regard of their yeares, and learning, and especiallie of their place in the church, should hauehave being an example, to the rest in vvisedome, sobrietie, and Christian forbearance, speciallie in a case threating diuision, and dissipation: following therein Christ our great high Priest, who being touched, with the feeling of our infirmities, can hauehave compassion of the ignorant. Heb. 4. and 5. The true naturall mother vvould not consent to hauehave the liuing childe derided, but the counterfeit vvas easily mooued therevnto, how earnest soeuer she seemed to hauehave it accounted hers.
Secondlie, For that he conceaues it not orderly, that the bodies of churchs should be sent to for counseil, but some choise persons. Power and vnauthoritie is in the body, for elections & censures, but counseil for direction in all affaires, in some few. In vvhichwhich regard euerie perticuler church is appointed its Elderships for ordinarie counseillers, to direct it and the members thereof in all difficulties vvith vvhom others are also to aduise vponupon occasion, speciallie ordinarie. The Priests lips should preserue knowledge, & they should seek the Law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts, Mal 2.
These things premised, our generall answere to the questions propounded by you, followeth. You demaind, 1. Whether you hauehave done well in re…eining her (to vvit, the maid, about vvhom the difference vvas) she leauing practise according to her promise?
Answere. We iudge that therein you did vvell yea though she had continued her practise, vponupon occasion, and without neglect of the church, wherof she vvas a member, how much more leauing it, as she did. Considering the action it selfe, the hearing of the word of God, the great prouocations she had therevnto; the state of the other church, about vvhichwhich your next question is moued, and vvith all these, that excommunication is the heauiest censure vvhichwhich the church can inflict for the most heynous offence most obstinatly stood in, we deem it against that brotherlie forbearance, vvhichwhich the stronger owes to the vveaker, so seuerelie to censure, a failing (so supposed) of that kinde.
To their assertion that she vvas an Idolator hauing broken the 2. Commandement for that Mr. Iakobs people vvere iudged Idolators in their going to the assemblies; and therefore from. 1. Cor. 5. If any called a brother be an Idolator, &c. We answere, that heare are diuers consequences & collections, made, vvithout rule of charitie, or ground of trueth.
To graunt (as the trueth is) that manie things in the assemblies are against the second Commaundements: vvhichwhich forbids nothing, but Idolatry expresly; and by consequence vvhatsoeuer tends therevnto: and vvithall that Mr. Iakobs people did partake vvith diuerse of these euills: yet wee deny it to agree, either vvith christianitie, or ciuillitie, in common course of speech, to calenge euerie such practise, as the committing of of Idolatrie, or such person, as Idolators. The Lord Iesus teacheth, Math. 5. 21. 22. that all vnaduised anger is against the sixth commaundement, Thou shalt do no murder. Is therefore euerie man that manifests vponupon occasion, any the least vnaduised anger to be chalenged as a committer of murther, or murtherer… so by proportion, euerie lesse modest word, gesture, or fashion of apparrell, is against the seuenth commandemsnt, Thou shalt not commit adulterie: Euerie vvronging of another by negligence, vnprouidence, or partiall affections (vvhichwhich euerie one lesse, or more beares to him selfe) though but in a half penny, against the eight commaundement, Thou shalt not steale, are all therefore so doing to be pronouncied and prosecuted, as theefes and adulterers reversed ? By these vain collections, and bold chalenges, searse any so good and godly, but might be branded, as Idolators, …heefes, murderers, adulterers, and vvhat not. For whoe can vnderstand his errours, and secret faults reversed ? vvords are vntounto things as cloathes vntounto the body. And as it were a vain course to put vponupon a childe a mans coat, though neuer so costly, to make him seeme a man, so is not onelyonly vain, but also injurious to put vponupon the things vvhichwhich vve dislike, odious phrases; though taken out of the verie seriptures, to make them seeme vvorse then in trueth then are.
Indeed he that is vnderunder the Law, & iudgement therof, doing the least euill against the 1. or 2. commandement is an Idolator, and against the 6. 4 murtherer, and so for the rest, in regard of God, and the rigour of justice: whom yet for men so to call and prosecute, vvere rashe and rude at the least: But now if the person can in respect of other good things, by the vvord of God & vtmost extent of charity be deemed to hauehave any the least interest in the grace of the gospell, to censure such a one as an idolator, theefe, murderer, and the like, is against both charitie and godlines: The Apostle, 2. Cor. 6. teacheth vsus to iudge, and speak otherwise, vvhere he calls such of the Christian Corinthians, as by occasion of friends & corruptions of times were drawne to partake in the Idoll feasts, and tables of deuils (of vvhichwhich they had also before been by him most seriouslie admonished, 1. Cor. 8. & 10.) Righteousnes, light, Christ, beleeuers, and the Temple of God; opposed to vnbeleeuers, vnrighteousnes, &c. As it is one thing to hauehave sinne, which if we say we hauehave not, we deceaue our selues, & the trueth is not in vsus; and another thing, to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase, 1. Iohn 1. Psal. 1. 5. Iohn 9. 3. 29. so all that practise through ignorance, or infirmitie, some acts (lesse discernable) of Idolatrie, are not Idolators: but such in vvhom it raigneth in action or disposition.
Lastlie, If all in the church of England, and of Mr. Iakobs, church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks: then are they all excluded from the kingdome of God, 1. Cor. 6. 9. 10. and are vnderunder the curse and condemnation of the law, vvhichwhich censure the most rigid this vvay hauehave disclaimed, as rash and vnjust.
Secondlie, Whether Mr. Iakobs congregation, be a true church or no? We hauehave so judged, and the Elders of the church at Amstelredam, and the body of the church with them, as we conceaue: and so do vve judge still, hauing sent you vvith our letter a copie of certain papers in which that matter is handled.
Thirdly, Whether Mr. Staresmore and his wife are receaued, and retained in our churches by that couenant, which they made with God in Mr. Iakobs church, or whether they hauehave renounced it as false, and made an other reversed ?
Answere. Their receauing, heare, was only by that couenant made with God, and the church there continued, and none otherwise, the persons hauing testimonie, and dismission from the church there, and so were in the vertue of the same couenaut, by vsus commended, and conueyed to that other church in Amstelredam.
Fourthly, To your fourth demaund about your carriage towards your Teacher, & other brethren renouncing communion with you, it is both vnseasonable now to answere, and difficult for vsus, who are ignorant of such circumstances▪ and maners of cariage by them, as by which offences are much agreeuated, or extennated
Fifthly, Whether their pretence of hauing the trueth be sufficient to make them the church, and to warrant their aboue mentioned dealing reversed ?
Answere, Neither the pretence of hauing, nor the hauing of the truth indeed, makes the church in the sence in hand: no more then the hauing some other perticuler commendable vertue, by some makes them the church excluding them that want its. As Reuelat. 2. and 3. The visible, and ministeriall church is the whole body, & eueryevery member thereof. Not some parts, Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members hauehave more comelines, and some lesse. The church is a state spirituall and politicall: not personall error therefore or other sinne makes any cease to be a member therof. And if the greater number be members still, though inerrour: the smaller cannot be the body. Besides, if some particuler sinne, or errour make the greatest part, not to be members, then much more two or three perticulers. Which therevpon the church might not censure for any errour or other sinne, to vvit, if they vvere not members: Lastly, this confirms that popish and presumptuous ground, that the church cannot erre.
Sixtly, Whether women hauehave voyces vvith men in the judgments of the churchs?
Answere. The Apostle teacheth plainlie, the contrarie, 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak perticularlie of prophe…ing and teaching, yet layes he downe a more generall rule, forbidding all such speaking, as in vvhichwhich authoritie is vsed, that is vsurped ouer the man, which is done speciallie in iudgements. And if a woman may not so much as moue a question in the church for her instruction, hov much lesse may she giuegive a voyce, or vtter a reproofe for censure?
And this answere vve return at the length, brethren, to your letter and demands, & therewith our louing salutations in the Lord. In vvhom vvishing your peace and vvellfare, we rest.
Your louing brethren Iohn Robinsz. and church with him. Leyden 5. April, 1624.
FINIS.
End of the text · John Robinson, The Lawfulness of Hearing of the Ministers of the Church of England (1634)