The Lawfulness of Hearing of the Ministers of the Church of England, Objection 2 – Objection 14
2. OBIECTION.
He that in any thing pertakes with that church in vvhichwhich sinnes knowne are suffred vnreformed, pertakes in all the sinnes of that church, as he that sweares by the Alter▪ sweares by the offrings vponupon it vvhichwhich it sanctifies, Matth. 23. 19. 20.
ANSWERE.
I partake not in the sinnes of any: how great or manifest soeuer the sinnes bee: or hovv neer vntounto me soeuer the persons bee except the same sinnes either be committed, or remain vnreformed by my fault. Othervvise, Christ our Lord had been invvrapped in the guilt of a vvorld of sinnes in the Ievvish church, vvith vvhichwhich church he communicated in Gods ordinances, liuing and dyeng a member therof. If my brother sinne a scandelous sinne, and I by just order, make complaint thereof to the church, I hauehave done my duty It appertaines to the church to excommunicate him, if he repent not; but not to me except (Popelike) I vvould make my selfe the church. I am guitty of the euill in the common wealth, & familie, for the redressing vvherof I do not my duty in my place: vvhichwhich if I do in the church as I can, I am free from the sinnes done and suffred there, vvhichwhich sinnes and euils I can no more be said to suffer (vvanting povver to reforme them) then to suffer it to blovv, or rain, because I hinder it not.
But the proofe of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable deuise. Hovv doth the church sanctifie the sinne of the sinner, as the Alter doth the offering of the offerer? The Alter makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift, vvhichwhich before vvas not an offering actually, but onelyonly gold, silver, or other materiall: So doth not the church make any mans sinne to become his sinne, vvhichwhich it vvas not before, but onelyonly suffers the sinne that vvas. But to strain the strings of this imagined proportiō, to make them meet: and to suppose the church in a sence to be as the Alter; yet this only follovves therevpon: that, as hee vvho partakes vvith the Alter in the vpholding of the offring, partakes vvith the offring: so he that partakes vvith the church in the vpholding of any euill, hath his part in the euill also.
And this I graunt vvillingly: but deny, as a most vain imagination, that euerie one, that partakes vvith a church in things lavvfull, joynes vvith it in vpholding the things vnlavvfull to be found in it. Christ our Lord joyned vvith the Ievvish church in things lavvfull; and yet vpheld nothing vnlavvfull in it.
3. OBIECTION.
But this course of hearing vvill offend weak brethren, not persuaded of the lawfullnes of it.
ANSWERE.
1. It vvill offend more, and many of them vveakere, and that more greeuously: if it be not performed. Secondly. It is an offence taken and not giuen: seeing the thing is in it selfe good: in its kinde commaunded by God; and in that perticuler, by men in authoritie; and directlie tending to mine edification: and not like vntounto eating of flesh, or drinking of vvine, or the like things of indifferent nature, and left to my free libertie to vse, or not to vse.
And these are the principall objections vponupon the former ground: they vponupon the latter follovv.
There is in the hands of manie a threatise published by a man of note, containing certain reasons to proue it vnlawfull to heare, or hauehave spirituall communion with the present ministerie of the church of England. This hath been ansvvered: but indeed sophisticallie, and in passion: Neither hath the ansvverer much regarded vvhat he said, or vnsaid, so he might gainsay his adversarie. With that ansvvere vvas joyned an other directed to my selfe, and the same doubled pretending to proue Publique communion vponupon priuat, but not pressing at all, in the body of the discourse, that consequence; but proceeding vpō other grounds: and in trueth, consisting of a continued equivocation in the terms publique, licence, gouernment, ministry, and the like; dravvne to another sence, then either I intended them, or then the matter in question vvill permit. Whereas he that vvill refute another, should religiously take, & hold to his aduersaries meaning: and if in any perticuler it be not so plainly set dovvne; should spell it, as it vvere out of his vvords. But it is no new thing euen for learned and godly men to take more then lavvfull libertie in dealing vvith them, against vvhom they hauehave the aduantage of the times favouring them, like the vvind on their backs. But God for bidde I should follovv them heerin. I vvill on the contrarie vse all plaines, and simplicity, as in the sight of God, that so I may make the naked trueth appeare as it is, to the christian readers eye, vvhat in me lieth.
And for the treatice mentioned, it must be obserued, hovv both in the title, and body of the booke, the authour confounds as one hearing of and haueing spirituall communion vvith the ministery▪ &c. vvhichwhich as it is true of such as stand in spirituall and politicall church-vnion vvith a church, and the ministerie thereof, vvho accordingly hauehave church communion in the publique acts, and exercises of that church: so is it not true of others vvhichwhich are not members of, not in ecclesiasticall vnion and combination vvith the said church.
For the better clearing of things, let vsus in a fevv vvords, consider distinctly of religious actions, according to the seuerall ranks, in vvhichwhich they may rightly, & orderly be sett. Some such actions are religious onelyonly, as they are performed by religious persons. And of this sort is hearing (and so reading) of Gods vvord. The scriptures teach, and all confesse, that hearing of the vvord of God goes before faith▪ For faith comes by hearing, Rom. 10. 17as by an outvvard meanes. Hearing then being before faith,1. Tim. 1. 5 and faith before all other acts of religion invvard,Rom. 10. 10 or outvvard:Gal. 2. 20 it must needs follovve, that hearing is not simply or of it selfe a vvork of religion: and so not of religious communion. Hearing is properly, and of it selfe, a naturall action, though it be the hearing of the very vvord of God. And I call it a naturall action in it selfe, in a double respect. First, for that the light of nature teacheth eueryevery man to heare, and listen to another, that can and vvill teach and inform him in any thing for his good, diuine or humane. Secondly, for that a meer naturall man, levv, Turk, Infidell, or Idolator, lavvfully may, yea necessarily ought to hear Gods vvord: that so of naturall he may become spirituall.
In the seacond rank I place preaching,Psal. 50. 16. 17. & prayer; which are properly acts religious,Pro. 15. 8. and spirituall: as being to be performed the one by a gift,Ioh. 9 31. the other by a grace of Gods spirit.
Of a third sort is the participation in the Sacraments: vvhichwhich ordinarily at least requires a member shippe in some perticuler and ministeriall church in the participant, they being publique church ordinances.
In a fourth order I set the power of suffrage, and voyce gi…eing in electing of officers, and censuring of offenders: for vvhichwhich there is requisite an interest of the person so voteing, in that perticuler church, as a member thereof.
Of the last sort is the ministration of Sacraments, which requires, vvith the rest fore mentioned, a publique state of ministery in the person administring them.
Novv for preaching by some, & hearing by others (vvhichwhich tvvo alvvaies go together) they may be, and oft are performed vvithout any religious o… sp…tuall communion at all passing betvveen the persons preaching or hearing.
When Paul preached to the superstitious Athenians shal vve conceaue he had spirituall communion vvith that heathenish assemblie?Act. 17. 22. Hovv much lesse had they spirituall, and religious communion vvith him, vvho performed not so much as a religious vvorke in their hearing? As God gaue any of them to beleeue; they came into invisible, or invvardly spirituall personall communion vvith him: as they came to make personall manifestation, and declaration of their faith; they came into outvvard personall communion vvith him, Lastly, as they came to joyn in, or vntounto some perticuler church; in to church communion vvith him: els not. So when there comes into the church assembly, vnbeleuers, 1. Cor, 14. 23.heathens, Turks, Ievves, Atheists, excommunicates, men of all religious, men of none at all, and there heare: vvhat spirituall communion hauehave they vvith the church, or state of the teacher, or one vvith another, either in regard of the nature of the act done, or by Gods ordination and institution? Hearing simply is not appointed of God to be a mark, and note either of vnion in the same faith, or order, amongst all that heare: or of differencing of christians from no christiās: or of members from no members of the church: as the sacraments are notes of both in the participants. The hearing of the vvord of God is not so inclosed by any hedge, or ditch deuine, or humane, made about it, but lies in common for all, for the good if all.
The perticuler objections follow.
1. OBIECTION.
No man may submit his conscience to be wrought vponupon by an vnlawfull, and Antichristian ministery: neither hath God promised, or doth afford any blessing vponupon it: neither can any hauehave the sanctified vse thereof.
ANSWERE.
It cannot be said properly that the office of ministerie vvorkes vponupon the conscience of the hearer. The office onelyonly giues povver, and charge to the teacher to teach in such or such a church state. And as it resides in the person of the officer alone, so the communion (lavvfull or vnlavvfull)▪ vvhichwhich any hath vvith it, is in regard of the lavvfull or vnlavvfull ecclesiasticall relation and vnion foregoing betvveen the persons: and not in any vvorking of the office vponupon the conscience of any. Secondlie, though God blesse not the vnlavvfull office of ministerie, vvhichwhich is not of him selfe: yet he may, and doth blesse the truthes taught by the officer,Genes. 4…. 5. 6. vvhichwhich are of himselfe, and from heauen. To deny this of many in the church of England, is (Balaamlike) to curse, vvhere God vvould hauehave vsus blesse.
2. OBIECTION.
To heare such a minister is to honour, approue, and vphold his office of ministery.
ANSWERE.
1. If this be simply true, then vvhen the heathenish Athenians heard Paul preach: or vvhen an vnbeleuer comes into the church assembly, and hears the preacher, he approues, honours, and vpholds the office of ministerie, vvhichwhich, vvhat it meanes, he is altogether ignorant.
If any reply: But vve know the ministery of the church to be as it is. I ansvvere, that the knowing of it makes not our act the more, or lesse an act of approbation. If I do an act wherin I indeed approue of a thing, if I know the thing, I really approue of it vponupon knowledge: if I know it not, I really approue if it, but ignorantly. 2. If I approue of the office, simply, because I heare the officer preach, then I much more approue of all the doctrines vvhichwhich hee deliuers, because I heare him deliuer them. If the latter seem vnreasonnable, so is the former much more, except I be in church communion vvith the officer, and then indeed I really approue of his office: as I also doe of his doctrine, if it be according to the confessiō of faith made by mee: for then I am in former vnion vvith him in the one, or other, and so hauehave communion in the acts therof. If this vvere a good ground, that eueryevery one approues of the euil done in matter, or manner, where he is present, none could liue with good conscience in any society of men vponupon earth. Persons so minded are best alone: for vvith others they vvill keep no peace: no nor vvith themselues neither: if they be true to their ovvne ground. But they plainly balke themselues in their courses, either in vveaknes of judgement, or partialitie of affection, or through vvant of due consideration of their vvaies.
3. OBIECTION.
By this then it seemes a man may be present at any act of Idolatrie, and do as others do that practice idolatrie, yet not approue of it. And so the three Nobles in Daniell needed not to hauehave put themselues vponupon such pikes of daunger as they did, for not falling downe, as others did, in the place.
ANSWERE.
1. In the preaching of the truths of the Gospell no Idolatrous act is performed; as there vvas. 2. It must be knowne, that approbation is properly in the heart; and only the manifestation of approbation in outvvard gesture, speech or writing. Both the one and other are euill if the thing be euill. But heare it must be considered, that I may in cases, do the same outvvard act, vvhichwhich others do, and vvherein they manifest their approbation of idolatrie or other euill: and yet I be free, in trueth and deed, from all such approbation, and stain thereof. The levves after Christs death, and the taking avvay, 2. Col. 15.and abolishing of the legall ordinances thereby, circumcised their infants, and frequentled the temple for purification, and other mosaicall ceremonies as parts of Gods vvorshippe, and still remaining of deuine institution. Paul also circumcised Timothy, entred the Temple for purification, and yet did not approue, any manner of vvay of the errour and euill in the Ievvish worshippers. To come nearer home. It is the custome in Popish countries, that all that passe by a crosse must in honour of it leaue it on the right hand, as they may, by reason of the placeing of it, comming, or going. Now if I ride vvith others that vvay, I may do the thing, that they doe, and keep companie vvith them, & yet not honour the crosse as they do. It is besides the former, the manner, that such, as so passe a crosse, should in further honour put of their hatt to the said crosse. But if I do this also I plainly manifest an approbation of the superstition. The reason of the difference is, because I hauehave another iust cause to do the former-thing, namely to keep on vvith my company: but hauehave no just cause of the latter. But now suppose, that at the very place, vvhere the crosse stands, I meet vvith some friend, or other, to vvhom I ovve that eiuill respect of vncouering my head; I may then do that lavvfully also vponupon the former ground. So if I had just and reasonnable cause either of comming, or standing by the Magistrate (to vvhom I ovve this ciuill honour) vvhilst he is performing some act of Idolatrie in the streetes, or els vvhere; I might vponupon the same ground, go or stand vncouered by him, vvithout just blame. To applie these things to the objectiō moued, seing no other cause could reasonnable be conceaued of the Kings commaunding such a thing, or of their doing the thing, at his commaundement, saue the vvorshipping of the Idoll; they in so doing could not hauehave escaped the just blame of Idolatrie: But now I hauehave just causes more then one of my hearing, and amongst the rest, mine edification; and therefore cannot be chalenged therein to approue of the ministers, flate, or standing. Besides that, as I formerly answered, heare is no Idolatrous act performed.
4. OBIECTION.
He that hears them preach, hears them as Ministers of the church of England, and as sent by the bishops, and so in hearing them, hears and receaue them that send them according to that of our Sauiour,Luk. 9. 16. he that hears you, hears me,Iohn 13. 10. and he that despiseth you, despiseth me, and he that despiseth me; despiseth him that sent mee.
ANSWERE.
I graunt the former part of the objection: and account the denying of it a point of familisme: seing the officers of publique states in the executing of their offices are to be esteemed, according to the publique lavves, and orders of those states, and not according to any vnderunder hand either course, or intention, by them selues or others. They are heard, as they preach, and preach as ministers of the Bishops sending, and of the parris hes receauing to vvhichwhich they are sent by them. And so I professe I heare them as the ministers of the Bb: sending, and of the Parishes sent to: but not as my ministers either sending, or sent to, except I be of those parishes, or at least in ecclesiasticall vnion vvith them. EueryEvery one, vvhether of false a church, or no church, or excommunicated frō the church, that hears me, hears me as the Pastor of the church, vvhichwhich I serue, but not as his Pastour, I suppose, nor in vvay of any his spirituall communion vvith mine office of Pastourshippe. Secondly, by hearing & receauing there Christ meanes properly the hearking, too, beleuing, and obeying the doctrine taught by the Apostles: vvhichwhich many despised, vntounto vvhom he apposeth the former that heard it. Now the ministers in the parishes hauehave not the doctrines of the Gospell from the Bishops, as they hauehave their office: but from God in his vvord, and so farre forth as a man hears, that is, hearkens too, and receaues them by receauing it, he so farre hearkes too & receaues Christ.
5. OBIECTION.
Yet such as heare them hauehave communion which their office of ministery vvhat in them lyes.
ANSWERE.
That is, they hauehave no communion at all vvith it, if it lie not in them to hauehave any: as it doth not. If I hold vp my hand as high as I can, I touch heauen vvith my finger, vvhat in me lies. Do I therefore at all touch it? If such think to hauehave, or that they hauehave, any such communion, it is their errour, and ignorance, but makes not the thing to be the more, then if they thought not so.
6. OBIECTION.
Is there then no communion at all betweene the teacher, and taught? vvhat profit the comes thereby such hearing.
ANSWERE.
The church officer feeds the flock and church ouer vvhichwhich he is set, Act. 20. 28as the object of his ministery. Such as come in (being not in church-vnion therevvith) heare him so doing: And as a stander-by hearing me talke to, or dispute vvith another (though I speak not a vvord to him) may reap as much, and more fruit by my speche, then he to vvhom I directed it; so may and doth it often come to passe vvith him, that hears the minister feed the flock vvhose minister he is, though he be no part of it. He may reap fruit by hearing him feed his flock, or seing him minister baptisme to any member thereof. Heare is communion only in the effects of the truthes taught. It vvere vsurpation in any to pertake in a church priueledge (vvhichwhich the office of ministerie is) that were not in a church-state, first. And so, if hearing simply imported churchcommunion, none but churchmembers might lavvfully heare.
7. OBIECTION.
In the true church indeed is order, that the church couenant go before church communion: but not so in the false.
ANSWERE.
In the true church there may be vnlawfull church-communiō without a preceeding church-couenant, as vvell, as in the other: to vvit, if an act of communion (properly) passe betvveen the church, and him that is no church-member: as for example, participation in the sacraments. But hearing being not properly an act of communion, cannot import communion necessarily vvith the one, or other: nor othervvise then according to a foregoing church-vnion: vvhereas to partake in the Lords supper imports communion in both: lavvfull in him, that is, a lavvfull church-member: and vnlavvfull in him, that is not, in such a church-state.
8. OBIECTION.
But it is the order of the church of England: that all that heare, are, and so are reputed members of that church.
ANSWERE.
I deny that there is any such order. Let the lavv or cannon either, be shevved that so orders things. Excommunicates are permitted to heare sermons, though not deuine seruice, as they call it. 2. What if there vvere such an order? It no more either made or declared mee to be a member there, then doth my dvv…lling in such or such a parishe make me a member of that parish-church: vvhichwhich latter is indeed the lavv, and order there. If the church vvith me should make a lavv, cannon, or order that all that come in & heare me preach, should thereby become members of it; vve vvere the more foolish in making such an order: but they neuer a vvhit the nearer either for membershippe or communion.
9. OBIECTION.
He that hears, appears to hauehave communion with the church, & ministry, and all appearance of euill is to be avoided, 1. Thess, 5. 22.
ANSWERE.
The scripture is not to be vnderstood of all that appears euill to others, out of an erronius, and deceaued judgement: for then vve must abstain from almost all good: seing there are some to vvhom almost all good seemes euill: but it is meant either of the doctrine in Prophesie, of vvhichwhich I hauehave some probable suspition; of vvhichwhich the Apostle seemes properly to speak: or of that vvhichwhich appears euill to a rightly discerning eye. By this imagined exposition I might not hyre a house in a parishe, vvhere I vvere not knovvne: seeing thereby I appeare a parish-member.
10. OBIECTION.
None can heare without a preacher, nor preach except he be sent, Rom. 10 14. 15. Therefore I cannot lawfully heare him that hath not a lawfull sending.
ANSWERE.
1. That conclusion is neither in text, nor sound: I may lavvfully hear him that hath no lavvfull calling, as I hauehave formerly shevved. 2. The Apostles meaning there, is not to shevv vvhat is vnlavvfull, but vvhat is impossible. It is impossible to beleeue vvithout hearing, and impossible to heare vvithout preaching, and impossible to preach vvithout the sending there intended: that is, vvithout Gods gracious vvork of Prouidence in raising vp of men, by enabling, and disposeing them to preach for the effectuall calling of the elect of God; of vvhichwhich he there speaks. If any make question vvhether faith come by the hearing of the preachers there: it is more questionable, whether they themselues, vvant not faith, vvhichwhich are so barren of charitie, in vvhichwhich true faith is fruitfull. If faith come by the preaching in England to any, it follovves therevpon, that such preachers are sent, in the Apostles sence.
11. OBIECTION.
The sheep of Christ heare his voice, but strangers they will not heare, Ioh. 10. 3. 8. 27.
ANSWERE.
Christ doth not there speak of the outvvard hearing, but of the hearking vntounto, that is, as he expounds himselfe vers, 3. 4. 5. 14. 16. 16. 27. of the knowing, and beleeuing of his voice: & following it. So chap. 9. I told you before, and ye did not hear, that is, not beleeue, vers. 27. And God hears not sinners, vers. 31. that is, approues not of them, and their prayers. So chap. 11. I know that thou bearest me alvvaies. and a thousand times in the scriptures. The drift of Christ in the place is (without question) to shew the difference betvveene such as vvere his sheep, and such as vvere not his sheep. His sheep heard his voice: and they vvhichwhich vvere not his sheep heard not his voice. But they vvhichwhich vvere not his sheep, nor heard his voice, as there he speaks, heard him preach outvvardly, as vvell, as the rest, vvhichwhich vvere his sheep. Besides, they vvhichwhich vvere his sheep, and vvould not heare strangers, in the Lords sence, heard outvvardly those strangers preach, and by hearing them discouered them to be strangers, that is, false prophets. The strangers of vvhom he speaks vvere of the true church, and of Israel: but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soule. Such strangers none should heare, that is, beleeue and follovv.
12. OBIECTION.
The scriptures both of the old and new testament vvarn Gods people of false Prophets; vvhichwhich the ministers of that church are, haueing an vnlawfull calling.
ANSWERE.
1. They vvarn,Deut. 13. 3 not to hearken vntounto them, 1. Ioh. 4. 1nor to beleeue them, but to try them which without hearing them, cannot be done. Not that all false Prophets are to be heard by all, that they might try them; for that vvere to tempt God: but I novv ansvvere the scriptures cited; vvhichwhich speake of Prophets in the true church: vvhichwhich vvere to be heard, till they vvere orderly repressed, or at least, plainly discouered by their doctrine heard, to be such. 2. No mans vnlawfull outvvard calling makes him a false Prophet; nor his outvvard lavvfull calling a true: but his true or false doctrine only makes him a true, or false Prophet. A man may hauehave a lavvfull office of ministerie, and yet be a false prophet, if he teach false doctrine: so may he be a true prophet, if he teach the trueth, though in an vnlavvfull and Antichristian state of ministerie.Numb. 2… and 25. Yea Balaam vvas both a false prophet in cursing (in purpose) vvhere God would hauehave him blesse, Ios. 13. 22▪& in teaching 2. Pet. 2. 15. 16.Balack to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel: Rev. 2. 14.and yet a true prophet in blessing Israell by the spirit of prophecie,Num. 25. 5. 9 10. &c. and chap. 24. 2. 3. &c. and vvord of the Lord put into his mouth. He is a prophet that speaks or declares a thing past, present, or to come. And to prophecie in our sence, is nothing els but to speak to edification, exhortation, 1. Cor. 14. 3.and comfort. He that doth this is a true Prophet: He that speaks the countrary, a false. It vvere good, if they, in vvhose mouthes the chalenge of false prophets is rifest, would better wey how themselues expound, and applie the scriptures in their propheciengs, lest notvvithstanding any outward lawfull church state, they be deeper vvounded by the rebound of their accusations this vvay, then their aduersaries.
13. OBIECTION.
The Lords forbids Iudah going to Gilgal, or to Bethel, Hos. 4. 15. 16.
ANSWERE.
The meaning is plain, and the vvords expresse, that they vvere not to go thether to offend, and play the harlot, in ioyning to Idols, vers. 15. 16. 17. This I graunt is to be done in no place: but deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by me pleaded for. The scriptures eueryevery vvhere forbid the going, or comming to such places, or persons, as in, or by vvhichwhich some euill is done; to vvit, for the doing of any thing, euill, or vnlawfull in, or vvith them.
14. OBIECTION.
They that eat of the sacrifice partake of the Alter, 1. Cor. 10. 18. so they that receaue the word from an vnlawfull Officer, partake with his office.
ANSWERE.
I deny the consequence. The office is not to the vvord, as the Alter is to the sacrifice. The Alter makes the thing to be offred, actually to become a sacrifice, vvhichwhich it vvas not before, saue only in destination: as Christ plainly teacheth, saying,Math. 23. 19. The Alter sanctifieth the gift, but so doth not the office make that to become the vvord of God, vvhichwhich vvas not so actually before. This argument hath its speciall waight being applied to sacraments, or proper institutions. The church, and ministerie vnderunder God, make (in a good sence) the bread and vvine sacramentall, in their vse, vvhichwhich before they vvere not. And to the sacraments (speciallie the supper of the Lord) The Apostle in the place cited hath an eye: shevving the proportion betvveene the eating of the sacrifices in Israell, which in that vse became their sacraments: & the eating of the sacrifices of the Heathens, which were their sacraments; and the eating of the Lords supper, as the sacrament of christians. With these things joyn in the last place, that sacrificies considered as proper institutions, might not be offred or eaten, Deut. 12. 5. 6. 7.but in the place chosen, and sanctified by the Lord, for that purpose. No more may sacraments now be eaten; but in the church: vvheras the vvord may be preached to any as vvell out of the church as in it.