Justification of Separation from the Church of England, Treatise · Section 64 – Section 66
The 7. Reason to prove the Elders the Church, is, the iudgement, and practise of all reformed Churches.
As the reformed Churches do abhorre from your practise, as…ns. intollerable, yea almost incredible, that the power of excommunication should be in the hands of one man, and that a forreyn Prelate, or Officiall, that most like never so much in his life as once came in the congregation, whereof the offender is a member, as may be seen in one for all, Beza Epist. 12. so bycause you will needs thus beare over all with all the reformed Churches, I will a little step out of my beaten way, and call in a few (well-deserving audience) of the reformed Churches to testify what their judgement is in the case, joyning vntounto them also a few of our own men seeming to be of the same mind, whatsoever the practise is eyther of the one, or of the other.
To omit then the judgement and practise of the more ancient times, whether whole councels, or particular persons, (as of the Council of N…ce, where Paphu…tius, no Church officer, both had & vsed such liberty of speach, as he perswaded the whole assembly touching the maryage of Ministers: of Tertullian before that, who Apol: chap. 39. makes the officers onelyonly Praesidents in the assembly, where manners are censured: of Ciprian who would never do any thing in his charge, without the consent of the people. lib. 3▪ epist. 10. and in particular thinks it specially the peoples right to chuse or reiect worthy, or vnworthy Ministers, then which what power is greater? Of Austin, that thinks it helps much to the shaming of the party, that he be excommunicated by the whole Church, lib. 3. contra epist. Parmen: and lastly of Ierom ad Demetr. which affirms that the Church it self hath right in excommunication, as the Elders have in other Church censures) the first is Zwinglius, who arti… ▪ 8. explanat: speaking of the contention which hath been what a Church is, acknowledges none other Churches but 1. the cōpany of sure & firm beleevers scattered through the vniversal world, which we call the catholik Church: & 2. severall congregations, which …ōveniently meet together in some one place, &c. and of these he affirmes Christ to speak, Math. 18. Tell the Church, and Paul. 1 Cor. 1. To the Church which is at Corinth. And answering an objection touching a Church representative he saith, of this I find nothing in the scriptures: out of mens devises any man may feyn any thing.
Next Perter Martyr, in his comon places pant: 4. chap. 5. sect. 9. making the Church a Monarchy in respect of Christ, an Aristocracy in respect of the Elders, addeth also that bycause in the Church there are matters of great weight, and importance referred vntounto the people, as excommunication, absolution, of choosing Ministers, & the like, it hath also a consideration of popular government: and vponupon 1 Cor. 5. 4. The Apostle as great as he was would not excommunicate alone, but did take counsel with the Church that the thing might be done by common authority. Which notwithstanding the Pope, and other Bishops dare do. The Apostle indeed goes before the rest, which is the duty of the ancients of the Ch: that the more ignorant multitude by their suffragation before going, may be directed in iud…ing.
With him ioyn Bucer, who in his first book chapt. 9. de regno Christi, affirmes that Paul accuses the Corinthians, for that the whole Church had not excommunicated the incestuous person.
Bastingius in the 4. place, quaestion 85. of his Catichism speaking of the difference between the two keyes that of preaching, & the other of discipline places it in this, that the former which is of the preaching of the gospel is committed to the Ministers, the other, bycause it perteyns to the discipline of excommunication, is permitted to the whole Church.
Lastly, even Beza himself, how streyt soever he be to the multitude in this case, hardly graunting them the liberty which “first book pag. 98.Mr B. yea which the very *Maldonatus …on Math 18.Iesuits do, namely that they were with the Elders gathered together in the name of the Lord Iesus, 1 Cor. 5. 4. yea & do playnely deny it in his Annotations vponupon 2 Cor. 2. 6. Yet vponupon v. …. he is constreyned to affirm, that Paul intreats that the incestuous person might by the publique consent of the Church be declared a brother, as he was by the Churches publique consent cast out.
Now to these speciall lights in the reformed Churches abroad, I will annex a few of the cheif endeavours of reformation at home.
The first of them is Mr Hooper, who in his Apology writes, that excōmunicatiō should be by the Bishop, & the whole Parish, & that Pauls consent, & the whole Church with him did excōmunicate the incestuous man.
To him adde Mr Fox, whose judgement in the book of Martyrs, pag. 5. 6. 7. is, and so is inforced by him that writ the discovery of D. Ban…r ofts vntruthes, and slaunders against reformation, that every visible Church, or congregation, hath the power of binding, and loosing annexed to it. If it be sayd the Church hath it, if the Officers have it: I see not but it may be as well sayd, the Church hath the scriptures in a known tongue, if the Officers so enjoy them.
Thirdly Mr Cartwright in his reply to D. Whitgifts answer, pag. 147 both affirms, and proves, that Paul both vnderstanding, and observing the rule of our Saviour Christ, communicates this power of excommunication with the Church, Him also an other writing A demonstration of discipline, alledgeth, adding further that they which were met togither, 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. were to excommunicate the incestuous person: with whom also consorteth he that wrote of the certayn form of ecclesiasticall government…, who vnderunder that head of the authority of the Ministers of the word that by the Church Math. 18. Christ meanes a particular Congregation, the Pastor, Elders, & people consenting, making that the iudgement of the particular congregation which is spoken of 1 Cor. 5. 12.
In the 4. place Mr Iacob in his book to the King for reformation, pag. 28. pleads for the peoples consent and voyce-giving in elections, & excommunications: to whom I ioyn them that made the Christian offer to iustify against the Bishops, and their adhaerents, that▪ every ordinary assembly of the faithfull, hath by Christs ordinance power in it self immediately vnderunder Christ, to elect, and ordeyn, deprive, and depose their Ministers, and to exequute all other ecclesiasticall censures. Proposition 5. & Prop. 8, that the officers can do no materiall ecclesiasticall act without the free consent of the Congregation.
Lastly *pag. 180.the godly Ministers in the end of Mr Bernards book do directly judge against him, interpreting the Church. Math. 18. to be a particular Congregation, and excommunication the iudgement, & censure of that particular congregation whereof the offender is a member.
Thus have I been constreyned by the bold boasting, and facing, which this man vseth, of, and with the iudgement of all reformed Church…, to set downe the judgements of some few amongst many both at home▪ and abroad for his conviction; though I desire the touchstone of the holy scriptures alone may try all differences betwixt him and me. I now return to Mr Bernard where I left him: & so come to two reasons he annexeth pag. 98. 99. to prove the officers to be called the Church: the former is, because it is, an Mr B.vsuall speach to put the name of the whole vponupon the part, and this to be taken for the whole. The 2. bycause a company is no where called a Church in the new testament, but where they have officers.
The latter of these I have formerly confuted as the reader mayAnsw. see pag. 126. 127. &c. OnelyOnly I adde one thing vponupon occasion of these words a Church in the new testament, that as there is but †Eph. 4. 4.one body, or Church, and we vnderunder the new testament that “Chap. 3. 6.one, or the same body or Church with the Iewes in the old, so (if the Ministery made the Church, how much more if it were the Church) could it not be, that the Iewes and we should be one Church, for I shall never be brought to beleeve, nor, I think will any man affirm it, that the Ministery of an Apostle, or Elder now, is the same in nature with the Ministery of a sacrificing Levite vnderunder the law. Wee are by faith *Luk. 19. 9.sonnes and daughters of Abraham, and partaker of the covenant, and promises, and †Rom. 11. 16. 20.by fayth grafted in their holy root, and in this stands our onenes with them, but neyther in the Ministery, nor in the government, nor in any other ordinance which are but manners of dispensing that covenant, and those divers & changeable, where the covenant is nothing lesse.
And for the former of your reasons, (howsoever the place you bring Act. 15. 3. proves no such matter) yet is the thing true you say, namely that a part of the Church is sometimes called by the name of the whole; but what part? not the officers, but the brethren, the saynts, as being the matter (an essentiall cause) of the Church: the Elders not so, as being but for the assistance, and well being of it. And so the Church gives both being, and denomination to the Elders, but not the Elders to the Church: which is never called the Church of the Elders, as they are called “Act. 20. 17.the Elders of the Church, and so are of it, and not it of them.
That which you adde of inconveniences, and discommodities following vponupon your doctrine not to be regarded is frivolous, except by them you mean, absurdities, and inconsequences, …a al…g… in theologia, as they call them, and then they are to be regarded, as never necessarily following vponupon any truth: for the truth brings forth no errour by true consequence.
The sixth Reason, of the superiour order, followeth, (for Mr B. hath his reasons, and his vnderunder reasons) which is,
In it self (the multitude being ever vnconstant) it is instability, vnorderlynesse, Mr B.where every one is a like equall, it is the nourse of confusion, the mother of schisme, the breeder of contention.Ans.
These very same things have been formerly objected by you in the fourth part of your 5. argument, and there cleared. The truth is, the drawing of all power into the officers hands, breeds in them pride, and arrogancy, and in the people ignorance, and security.
And for your contemptuous vpbrayding of Gods people in this book, with inconstancy, instability, pride, contention, and the like evils, but specially in your second book, where with a scurtilous, and prophane spirit you nickname them, Srmon the Sadler, Tomkin the Taylour, Billy the Bellowes maker, as you shew whose child you are, Ioh. 7. 48. 49. in so speaking, so doth the Spirit of God give an other testimony of them Act. 2 41 42. Phil. 1. 6. 7. 1 Th. 3. 5. 6. 7 8. 1 Pet. 1 7 8. In deed (as I formerly sayd) no mervavl though such multitudes as yours are, be vnstable and variable, and ready to change their religion with their Prince, yea though it be to Popery, as appeared in Queen Maries dayes, vniversally scarce one of ten thousand excep…d: onelyonly the mischeif was, that the Praelates and Priests were as vnstable as the rest, yea their ringleaders also.
But for our selves, Mr Bern. and that whereof we take experience in this our popularity, as you terme it, I tell you, that if ever I saw th… b…a…y of Sion, & the glory of the Lord filling his tabernacle, it hath b…en in the manifestation of the divers graces of God in the Church, in that heavenly harmony, and comely order, wherein by the grace of God we are set and walk: wherein, if your eyes had but seen the brethrens sober, and modest cariage one towards an other, their humble, and willing submission vntounto their guides, in the Lord, their tender compassion towards the weak, their …rvent zeal against scandalous offenders, and their long suffering towards all, you would (I am perswaded) chaunge your mind, and be compelled to take vp your parable, and blesse, where you purposed to curse, as Balaam did, Numb. 23. But whatsoever you, and all others do, these our experimentall comforts neyther you, nor any other shall take from vsus.