Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Preface
Iohn Rainoldes to the Students of the English Seminaries at Rome and Rhemes.
BRethren, my harts desire & prayer vntounto God for Israel is, that they may bee saued. For that which S. aRom. 10.….Paule wrote to the Romans, touching the Israelites, bRom. 9.3.his brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh, as being of one nation with him▪ that must I protest to you (brethren) your selues, my kinsemen according to the flesh in like sort, and countriemen of England. Of whom I hauehave the greater compassion and pitie, because I am perswaded that you sinne of ignorance rather then of wilfulnesse; and hauehave a deuotion to serue God aright, though not the right way wherein he will be serued. That I may iustly say the same vntounto you, which S. cRom. 10.2.Paule of thē: For I beare you record that you hauehave the zeale of God, but not according to knowledge. The zeale, which the Israelites had, was of dAct. 22.3.the law. The knowledge, which they wāted, was the true meaning of it. For they expounded it after eGal. ….1▪the traditions and doctrines of their Fathers: and knowing not fRom. 10.4.Christ to be the ende thereof, they sought their owne righteousnesse against the righteousnesse of God. The zeale, which you hauehave, is of the Gospel. The knowledge, which you want, is the true meaning of it too. For you are instructed to vnderstand it gAllen in the Apologie, of the English Seminari…s. chapt. 6.after the maner of your Fathers. Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand, that hchapt. 2.the Pope is supreme head of the Church; ichapt. 3.the trade of Popish Priesthoode, the way to saue soules; kchapt. 1. & 6.the sacrifice of Popish Masse, the souerain sacrifice; in a word, lchapt. 5.that Papistrie is the Catholike faith: and mchapt. 1. &▪ 5.the faith and seruice of the Church of England is cursed and damnable; specially, nchapt. 1. & 4.the oth of the Queenes supremacie. And your mindes are taken so with these opinions, that you are content to venture as farre in the defense of them, as the Donatists did, who loued their errours better then their liues. Great zeale, but not according to knowledge, my brethren. For the Gospell teacheth not that which you imagin; your Fathers were abused by Phariseis & Rabbines: your Pope hath vsus…rped ouer all Christian states; your Priesthoode is impious; your Masse, abominatiō; your Popish faith, heresie; our doctrine of the Queenes supremacie, & oth thereto, our ministerie of the word, of sacraments, of prayers, agreeth with the Gospell, and therefore is holy. Which thinges sith this Conference, that one of your Seminarie-Priests, and I hauehave had, doth open & proue: peruse it (… beseech you) with equitie and iudgement; and studie to ioine knowledge to your zeale, that you may be saued. Perhaps your Superiors (the *Esai. 9.16.guides who seduce you) will not giuegive you leaue to reade it and peruse it. But there are two reasōs which should moue them to cōdescend thereto: the one, of the worke; the other, of the autours. The worke, is a conference: which thēselues hauehave called for. And oAllen, in hi… Apologie, chapt. 5.the chiefest of thē hath wisht, that some of theirs might meete in scholasticall combat with any of vsus before indifferent iudges: trusting that their doctrine, which we condemne of fansie and humane tradition, should then be inuincibly proued to be most agreeable to Gods word. Wherfore sith this combat hath bene vndertaken, and that in such sort as p…heologi… Mini…ri ecclesia…um ditioni… Casimiri, in Admonitione de li…ro Concord…, cap. 12.lerned men hauehave thought to be most fit for triall of the truth; not by extemporall speaking, but writing with aduise; the question agreed of; the arguments, the answeres, the replies set downe, and sifted of both sides, till ech had fully sayd; in fine, the whole published, that Churches and the faithfull all may iudge of it: your guides cannot honestly denie you the sight of their inuincible proofes therein. The autours of the worke: are M. Hart and I. Of whom qConcertat. ecclesi…e Catho…licae in Anglia aduersus Caluin. & Puritan. In epistola Lucae Kyrby, & Apologia Martyrum.they hauehave giuē out in print to the worlde, sithence we began it, that I, 1Quamuis doctissimus illius ordinis.though the lernedst (as the reporter saith) of that sort and order, yet 2Tanto in doctiorem se esse ostendit.did shew my selfe so much the more vnlerned, how much the more earnestly I was dealt with: but M. Hart, 3Egregium Christi Athle…am.a noble champion of Christ, and 4Sanctum sacerdotem.a holy Priest, a 5Sacrae Theologiae Baccalau reum.Bacheler of Diuinitie, 6Firmiores egisse radices in fide… fundamentis.had taken deeper roote in the foundations of the faith, and 7Doctrina esse solidiori.was of sounder lerning, then that the reasons, which I (8Ministrum synagog…e Anglicanae non vulgarem. no common Minister of the English synagogue) brought to ouerthrow him, could remoue him from it. So that 9Re insecta, vnde venit, …ecessit.I was faine to go whence I came: and leaue him, as I found him. Now, if they themselues thinke this to be true, which they hauehave geuen out: they may boldely suffer you to reade our Conference, that you may see the triumphe, which a noble champiō of yours, a holy Priest, a Bacheler of Diuinitie, hath had of a Minister of the English synagogue, an vnlerned Minister, and yet the lernedst of that sort. But if they will not giuegive you leaue to reade it: then may you suspect that these glorious speeches of their own scholers, and base wordes of vsus, are but sleights of policie; as many vauntes & lyes be in the same pamphlets wherein these are writen. Nay, you may suspect, that there is somewhat which they are afrayde least you should espie: and therefore debarre you frō the meanes of knowing it. In deed, my deere brethren, you are circumuented by rAllen in hi… … pologie The n…ration o… t…e English … in ….them who commend the louelove, and liberalitie, and pietie of the Pope, in erecting Seminaries to traine vp English youth vnderunder the Iesuites and other famous men. For the louelove pretended towards you therein, is, to hauehave you his seruants. The liberalitie emploied in feeding and teaching you, is, to make you pliable and fit therevnto. The Iesuites and others set to train you vp, are set to noosell you in heresie and treason, the pillers of his faith and State. The sDan. 1. ver. ….King of Babylon, Nabuchodonosor, did commaund Asphenaz the Master of his Eunuches, that of the Israelites he should bring tver. 4▪children, who were without blemish, well fauoured, wise, and skilfull, and had abilitie in them; & that he should teach them the artes and tongue of the Chaldeans. uver. ….And the King appointed them prouision euerie day of a portion of his meate, and of the wine which he dranke: that they, being brought vp so for three yeares, might, at the end thereof, stand before the King Pope Gregorie the thirteenth loueth you, brethren, as King Nabuchodonosor did the Israelites. xAllens Apolo…gi…. chapt. 3.He hath founde the meanes that there should bee brought to the Masters of his Eunuches, Iesuites, & others, a number of the best wittes out of England, that they may teach you the artes and toung of the Romans. And ychapt. 2.he hath appointed prouision for you of moonthly exhibition, in bountifull sort: but to what ende? zchapt. 6.that after certain yeres of this education you may stand before the Pope. aDan. 1. ver. 7. & 8.Daniel perceaued that the Kings louelove & liberalitie was not single; but sought his own profit: which bver. 12.his felowes also, Ananias, Misael, and Azarias saw. If you hauehave the spirite of Daniel and his felowes: you wil see as much in the Popes double louelove, and liberalitie. Sure, hee geueth iuster cause to distrust it, then the King did. For, the Kings drift in trayning vp them, that they might stand before him, was only that ver. 4. & 19.they should attend and waite vponupon him, as courtiers, in his palace. Or if, because he chose them ver. 3.of the blood royall, and seede of the nobilitie, he had a farder drift: it was but the assurance of their land of Iuda. But you are trained vp by the Pope to serue him in prouinces abroade, not in his palace at home; to subdue for him that which hee hath lost, not to assure him of that hee hath subdued; nor to make him soueraine of one land, but of two; and them not small of territorie, and state, as Iuda was, but greater and mightier, England, & Ireland. For which a poorer fisher, then the Pope is, would be content to angle with a hooke of golde, although it cost him more then your two Seminaries are lykely to doo. Pope Leo the tenth eGuic…iardin▪ hist. Ital. lib. 11did spend a hundred thousand ducats in one day, vponupon the pompe and brauerie of his coronation: flib. ….and eight hundred thousand more in one warre against the Duke of Vrbin, to spoile him of his State, thereby to establish a nephew of his owne in it. In his dayes Luther rose: the Protestants had not touched the triple crowne yet. His successours hauehave felt what danger it is in. If some of their offals be spent, with greater shew of almes, on scholers now, chiefly on such scholers as may defēd their crowne: gAllens Apologic. chapt. 6▪the Papacie (you know) is discreetely menaged; this menaging doth proue not lesse ambition, but more discretion. The policie of Gregorie the thirteenth appeereth therin, not the pietie. His cost hGenebrard. Chronogr. lib. 4. & in a… pend.vponupon captains, & souldiours, and ships sent into Ireland, discloseth the fountaine of his liberalitie and louelove to our nation. Whereof that is also a cleerer proofe, & plainer token, that the Masters of his Eunuches are set to teach you the artes and toung of the Romans: as Asphenaz the Master of the Kinges Eunuches was to teache the Israelites the artes and toung of the Chaldeans. I meane not the Italian toung, though iThe narration of the English Semin. in Rom.where they will you to lerne that withal, it is a special point of the kings policie: but I meane the Romish tongue (so to call it) and language of Poperie. The knowledge of the artes yee are not all taught; but yee are all taught the knowledge of this toung, be ye Philosophers, or Diuines: Philosophers, in sermons, in catechismes, in confessions; Diuines, in the lectures of cases, of controuersies, of positiue Diuinitie, and (they, who can) of Hebrue, and Schoole-diuinitie too. kGen. 3.6.The woman was deceued through desire of knowledge which the serpent promised her. Great thinges are promised you by Seminarie-proctors of perfitter knowledge to be obtained there, then with vsus in England. And truely, for the artes and toung of the Chaldeans, I thinke that the Master of the Kinges Eunuches taught them more exactly, then any of the Iewes did within Ierusalem. But for the liberall artes and lEsai. 19.18.language of Chanaan, the skill of our readers, the course of our studies, the orders of our Colleges and Vniuersities are such, what through publike lectures thereof, what through priuate, with sundrie kinds of exercises to ripen the trauailes of students in them both: that, if I listed to deale, as S. Paul doth, with m2. Cor. 11. ver. 13.the false Apostles, I might boldly say, nver. 22.they are Hebrues, so am I. For if you excell vsus in one helpe of lerning, as your harder state in a strange countrey may breede greater diligence then ours at home more plentifull: wee counteruaile you with vauntage in an other, as that we spend sixe yeares in the studie of Philosophie, for that you spend three; seuen in Diuinitie, for that you spēd foure. Wherein, I referre it to your owne iudgements, whether our so long time, though with meaner helpes, be not as auaileable to soundnesse & maturitie of iudgemēt & knowledge, (which yeares doo greatly furder:) as your helpes, whatsoeuer they be, in so short time. Or weene you of your selues, that, from your first entrāce into the studie of logike,oThe …arration of the English Semin. in Rome. three yeares can make you perfit Masters of the artes, so perfit, passing, eminent, as you are borne in hand? and foure yeares as perfite graduates in Diuinitie? Or is not this hast vsed by the Masters of the Popes Eunuches to dispatche you quickly, that you may serue in his affaires? But it was not my purpose to enter into comparison of our Colleges, with your Seminaries: much lesse of our two most noble Vniuersities, with your two Colleges. Let your readers be as skilfull as p2. Cor. 11.… ▪angels of light; as painefull, as qIob. 1.7. & 2.2.the Prince of darkenesse. Let their orders and lectures, and exercises passe ours, as farre as r1. King. 11.10the little finger of Roboam was bigger then his fathers loynes. The knowledge, which they teach you, is of good and euill: like that of the serpent which deceiued the woman. It is not the doctrine of Ierusalem, but of Babylon; the toung of the Chaldeans, not the language of Chanaan, which you shal lerne of them. Neither do they instruct you, as children of the Prophets, to stand before the Lord: but as the Kings Eunuches, as Babylonish vasals, to stand before the Pope. When sDan. 1.….Daniel requested the Master of the Eunuches that he and his felowes might not bee forced to eate the meate and drinke the wine of the Kings prouision, least that (it being often Deut. 14.3.such, or uDan 5.4. Rom. 14.21. 1. Cor. 10.20vsed so, as was not allowed by the law of God) they shuld be Leu. 1….43.defiled therby, and offend: xDan. 1.10.the Master said vntounto him, I feare my Lord the king, who hath appointed your meate & your drinke: for why should he see your faces in worse liking, then the other children that are of your sort, & so shuld you indaunger my head to the King? A godly affection in Daniel, and his felowes: and sauoring of the instruction taught them in Ierusalem, yLeu. 11.44.that they should be holy, because the Lord is holy. But the Master of the Eunuches had lerned an other lesson, that he must doo in al things, as the King cōmanded. Which although he would hauehave taught his scholers also, according to the artes and toung of the Chaldeans: yet hee shewed (by mentioning his feare of the King) that he misliked not their scruple of conscience, & could be contented to grant their request, so that it were without his danger. VVhereby it came to passe, that anzDan. 1.…. other officer, whom he set ouer them, did grant it. I would to God (my brethren) the Iesuites, & the rest, whom Nabuchodonosor of Rome hath ordained to be your Masters, vsed you no worse then Asphenaz did them. For then, notwithstanding they would say vntounto you, VVe feare our Lord the Pope, who hath appointed your doctrine & your faith, if your cōscience grudged at some point therein as differing from the word of god: yet shuld not your soules be forced to that, & other ouerseers might giuegive you better food. But other ouerseers & they are so linked all in one deuotion to the will & pleasure of their Lord the Pope: that if you bring forth but a bud of such fruite, they nippe it off straight, and teach you to thinke and speake in all respects according to the artes and toung of the Romans. VVhereof they hauehave giuen experiēce & proofe in many lerned men & writers of your side. But three fresh examples may suffice to shew it: euen Ludouicus Viues, Iohannes Molanus, and Carolus Sigonius. For Viues had vttered (in aIohan. Lud. …uis commen…ar. in A…g…stinum de ciuitate De….his cōmentaries on S. Austin) some speeches that stood not with the Popes liking: as namely, that bEpist. ad Regem Henricum octa…um.Princes are supreme gouernours in earth next vnderunder God; that clib. …8. cap. 43.humane affections doo raigne oftentimes in the holiest men, and dl…b. 12. cap. 1…. …. 16. cap. 3…. & lib. 18. c. 44.Fathers hauehave their ouersights; that elib. 8. cap. 27.Saints are esteemed and worshipped by many, as were the Gods among the Gentiles; that flib. 18. cap. 31.the storie of Susanna, of Bel▪ and the Dragon are not canonicall scriptures; that glib. 15. cap. 13.they, who preferre the Latin translation before the Greeke and Hebrew fountaines, are men of euill mindes, and corrupt iudgements; that hlib. 16. cap. 37.none must bee blamed for the kinde of meates, but for excesse in eating, by the doctrine of the Gospell; that ilib. 17. cap. 5.Priests are ambitious, couetous, vnchast, enriching their bastards with the churches spoiles, yea, klib. 8. cap. 27.wicked and vngodly in causing thinges of Christ to be set foorth in playes; that llib. 18. cap. 2….all things almost are solde and bought at Rome, & that by rules & orders of most holy law; to be short, that Schoolemē, through ignoraunce of toungs, hauehave not only marred & smoothered mlib. 3. cap. 31·all other artes, but nlib. 2. cap. 13. & lib. 19. c. 12Diuinitie too; and olib. 1…. cap. 11. & 24. lib. 13. ca…. 1. lib. 18. cap. 18. lib. …0 cap. 16. & … 21. …ap. 7.hauehave profaned it with their curiositie, their vanitie, their folly, their rashnes in moouing and defining questions, as Aristotelians rather then as Christians, and heathen Philosophers, then scholers of the holy Ghost. Now these, & sundrie speeches mo to like effect, the Diuines of Louan (in their late pOf Plantine… print, at Anwerpe: in the yeare of Christ 1576.edition of S. Austins workes) hauehave taken out of Viues: & shauing off his lockes, as qIudg. 16.19.Dalila did Samsons, hauehave made him like an other man. Molanus, setting foorth the Church of Romes Legende, rPrinted at Louan by Wellaeus, in the yeare 1568.the Martyrologe of Vsuarde, with notes of his owne, and D. Hessels Censure on certaine stories of Saints, had therein discredited not onelyonly forged writings, bearing false titles, as sAnnot. in 24. August. & 27. Decembr.tales of the Apostles fathered on Abdias; of tIn 30. Iun.Martialis, on Aurelian; of uIn 5. Mai.Austin, on Ambrose: but also the reports of their right autours, though speaking not aright, xIn Censura D. Hessels.Pope Adrian, yIn praefat. ad Vsua…d. Martyrolog. cap. 20.Palladius, Cassianus, Nicephorus, and zIn 25. Nouēb.Simeon Metaphrastes. The chiefest defense of the Masse, of merites, of moonkrie, of nunnerie, of the worship of Saintes, of relikes, of images, and other superstitions and errours of Poperie, doth stand on the credit of these records and euidences, or as good as these. Wherefore Molanus being reprehended, and tolde thereofaIn praefat. po…ster. edit. Vsuard. ad lectorē. by many, was faine to bee a Censour of Louan to himselfe: and bIn Vsuarde, printed lately at Anwerpe by Nutius.to raze out his notes of thē all, sauing of Abdias, (a forgerie cSixt. Senensis biblioth. sanct. lib. 2. Claud. Espencaeus de continent. lib. 5. cap. 5.cō demned by the Pope, & Papists, the Roman Inquisitors dIn the yeare of Christ. 1559.many yeares ago,) with D. Hessels Censure wholly. Sigonius (in his storie of the Weststerne Empire) hath written eDe occident. Imper. l. 3. & 4.so of Constantine, that he hath not onelyonly not proued the charter of Constantines donation, (a fable, that hee gaue the Western Empire to the Pope,) but hath disproued it. Cardinall Sirletus sent him worde from Rome, that Balsamon, Caleca, Gennadius (hungrie Greekes) hauehave mentioned that charter. A miserable euidence against all ancient writers. But such as it was, Sigonius must enroll it, and vse it gently, as flib. 3.he doth. Though ouerthrowing glib. 4.afterward the foundation of it: yet fearfully, poore man, and making his excuse, that he thought it his dutie to shew what Eusebius and many more had writen, albeit not agreeably to the Church of Rome. So the dealing of Cardinall Sirletus with Sigonius, of many with Molanus, of the Diuines of Louan with Ludouicus Viues, may teach you, my brethren, to what sort of seruice, or seruitude rather, you are trained vp by the Popes officers: who, if you vtter a worde beside the artes and toung of the Romans, will gag you by and by, and cut your toungs if they be long. Yet this is a freedome in respect of that slauerie which your Masters fat you too.
*Nescis ab perdita: necdum Laomedouteae sentis periuria genti… ▪Alas yee knowe not seely soules, nor yet doo vnderstand
The thraldome of the Romish crew, & yoke of Popish band.
For it is a small thing that they should restraine you from reprouing falsehood, or force you to furder it in points of lesser waight; (a hard thing for ingenuous mindes, but small for them:) vnlesse they leade you also, with heresie, and treason, to band your selues against the Lord and his anointed in the Popes quarrell, that he may bee exalted h2. Thes. 2.4.as God iPsal. 82.1.of Gods vponupon the earth. The anointed of the Lord, are kRom. …3.1.the higher powers, ordained to execute iustice and iudgement ouer the good and euill. The Lord hath giuen charge of these his anointed, that all, euē eueryevery soule, should be subiect to them; yea, though they be infidels, as they were when this charge was giuen. Your lThe Iesuit Robert Bellarmin in his Roman lectures, Controuer. 4. part. 2. quaestion. 3. Wherein the rest folowe h…m, after their common doctrine of the Pope… supremacie.Masters doo teach you, that if they indeuor to withdraw their subiects to infidelitie or heresie, then ought they not to raigne: and the Pope, as iudge thereof, must depose them. It were a point of scandalous doctrine and erroneous, to say, that 1As Pope Innocentius the third dooth, c. sol…tae. de maiorita…e & obedientia.the persons, ouer whom the power of the sword is giuen them, are lay men onelyonly, not the clergie. Much more, to adde thereto, that 2As the Rhe…mists doo, in their Annot. on Heb. 5.….the things and matters wherein they hauehave to gouerne, are onelyonly temporall, not spirituall. Bu… …o say, that 3As Sanders, Bristow, Surius, and all the Papists doo in maintenance of the Popes Bulls against Princes.the Pope may depriue them of their kingdomes, nor onelyonly take from them some of their subiects in all causes, & all their subiects in some causes, but all their subiects and causes both, it is so vngodly: that mSigebertus Monachus Gen…blacen…is.Sigebert, a moonke, who liued fiue hundred yeares since, when Hildebrand the Pope did first vsurpe that power against the Emperour Henry; Sigebert, an historian, alleaged by your champions for a speciall witnesse, nSander. de visib. monarch. eccles. lib. 8. demonstrat. 3. quód Papa nō sit Antichrist.that the Church of Rome had neuer any heresie, oCampian. Ration. 7.nor changed ought in faith; pIn Chronico. ad annū Christi. 1088.Sigebert condemneth it in the Pope as *Haec sola nouitas, non dicam haeresis.noueltie, and (though halfe afraid to cal it so) heresie. This is the golden image which your Nabuchodonosor hath raised vp to bee worshipped. Beware of him, my brethren, who hath raised it vp, and commaundeth you to fall downe before it. Though he hauehave ensnared you with his meate and drinke: yet learne of your felow and friend M. Hart, to disobey him in this point. If you hauehave not the courage to doo it where you are, qDan. 3.12.as Ananias, Misael, & Azarias did: returne out of Babylon into your natiue country, & rPsal. 2.11.serue the Lord with feare, not in s2. King. 23.13.the hye places, but in tPsal. 5.7.his holy temple. But if you will neither returne vntounto vsus, & will persist there to be the Popes slaues, heretikes, & traitors: I call heauen and earth to witnesse this day, that I hauehave warned you to turnē from your wickednes; I hauehave discharged my dutie; your bloud vponupon your owne heads.
LVK. 23.34.
Father, forgiue them: for they know not what they doo.