Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Chapter 2 · Floating text

Conference Between Rainolds and Hart · Chapter 2 · Floating text

p. 67Be thou the Prince of pastors:

to thee alone is giuen

The power to shut the dore of heauen,

and eke to set it open,

Pastorum princeps esto:

tibi ius datur vni,

Claudere celestes

& reserare fores.

Hart.

Nay: the very words (as they lie in scripture) are plainer in shew for vsus then for you. which also may be noted in other pointes of controuersie betwéene you and vsus. As, about the reall presence, ggMat. 2….26.Matt 2:26this is my bodie. For Christ did not say, this is a signe of my bodie. And againe, hhIoh. 6.5….John 6:5the bread that I will giuegive, is my flesh. He said not, it is but the signe of my flesh.

Rainoldes.

Neither do we say, that Christ did so meane in this, of flesh and bread. For we teach, that iiIoh. 6. ver. 32.John 6:32the true bread, kkver. 33.the bread of God which came downe from heauen and giueth p. 68life vntounto the world, llver. 35. & 48.is Christ, euen mmver. 51.the flesh, the very flesh of Christ, that is, Christ incarnate. The greater wrong nnAlan. de sacrament. Eucharist cap. 22. The defender of the Censure, in the answ. …o M. Charlis pref. pag. 27.they do vsus, who lay to our charge that we expound it not of the thing, but of a signe: themselues indéede guiltie thereof, expounding it of a sacrament of Christ, where it is meant of Christ him selfe, ooIoh. 1.14.John 1:14the word that was made flesh. But what if in the other place, and sundry mo, the wordes of the scripture bee plainer in shew for you then for vsus? It is not the shew but the sense of the wordes, that doth import the truth, and must decide controuersies. For wordes were ordained to open the meaning and minde of him that speaketh them. The meaning of the word of God is alwaies true: because God, who speaketh it is ppIoh. 3.33.John 3:33true, and qqTi…. 1.2.cannot lie. The shew of it is false sometimes and deceitfull: as rrRom. 3.4.Rom 3:4men are, whose iudgement this shew dependeth of; and that may séeme to them to be meant by it, which is not meant by God. Wherfore it is not the shew, but the sense; the substance, not the semblance of the wordes of scriptures; that you must proue doth make for you (in points of controuersie) if you will proue ought.

Hart.

Why? do you graunt then, that the wordes of scripture make more for vsus, in shew, though not in substance, then they doo for you. It were not good for you that this should be knowne.

Rainoldes.

What? Not that the wordes of scripture, sometimes, make more for you then vsus, in shewe, though not in substance? Yes truely M. Hart: and for the Anabaptistes too, that ssAct. 4.32.Acts 4:32Christians had all things common. And for ttAs his words are set downe in the …anon law. c. dilectissimis. 12. …. 1.Pope Clemens too, that wiues must be common: because **in omnibus sunt sine dubio & coniuges.in all things wiues are implyed also. And I am so farre from being afraid that this should be knowne: that, euen in the very example which you mē tion (as making for you most,) I grant that the words of Christ, this is my body, are plainer in shew, though not for your monster of transubstantiation, yet for your reall presence, then for our sacramentall. But so, that I graunt the same (in like maner) of other sacramentall and mysticall spéeches: wherein the scriptures giuegive the name of the thing to that which it betokneth, as of uuMatt. 26.17. Exo. 12. vers. 11. & 27.Matt 26:17Exod 12:11Exod 12:27the passeouer, to the lambe, and of xx1. Cor. 10.4. and the rocke was Christ.1 Cor 10:4the rocke to Christ. For (I hope) you wil not conclude of this shew, that really Christ was a rocke; or a lambe, the passeouer really.

p. 69Hart.

These spéeches are not like to that of Christes bodie in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. For, it is manifest, that when the lambe was called the passeouer, and Christ the rocke: it was meant, not really, but figuratiuely, that the rocke signified Christ; the lambe, the passeouer. But it is not manifest in that of Christes bodie.

Rainoldes.

Whither it be manifest, or no; is not the question: but whither the spéeches be like in shew of wordes, the rocke was Christ, this is my bodie. Or, to come néerer to your owne example and proofe of that point: Christ saith of himselfe that yyIoh. 6. ver. 3….John 6:3he is true bread: and, zzvers. 55.my flesh is meate indeede, and my blood is drinke indeede. True and, indeede: these termes are more pregnant for a reall presence, then that of Christes bodie. Yet if you say that Christ is bread, really; and his flesh, meate; and his blood, drinke: you may as well say, that he is really aaIoh. 15. ver. 1.John 15:1a vine; and his disciples bbvers. 5.branches really, and other such reall either blasphemies or follies.

Hart.

Nay, we doo confesse that many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely: but neither all, nor this concerning the Sacrament, nor any thing els, whereof the literall and proper sense hath not somewhat contrarie to God, to religion, and to Christian life. As ccAlan. de sacrament. Eucharist. cap. 22.D. Allen saith that S. ddDe Genes. ad lit. lib. 8. cap. 2. De doctr. Christ. lib. 3. cap. 15.Austin teacheth. Out of eecap. 10.whom he citeth withall a woorthie sentence, touching such, as you are: If the minde be preuented with an opinion of some errour, whatsoeuer the scripture dooth affirme otherwise, men thinke it to be spoken figuratiuely.

Rainoldes.

That sentence is good, as S. Austin vttereth it. But D. Allen vseth it ill, against vsus. The woorse, because S. Austin sheweth straight vponupon it, ffcap. 16.in the same booke, of the same point, that, to eate the flesh of Christ, and drinke his blood, was spoken not properly (for so it were a wicked deede,) but figuratiuely: flat against that error of the reall presence, which hée is pretended to proue by D. Allen. But howsoeuer D. Allen deale in that: the point (which you graunt with him) sufficeth me for proofe of that I saide. For if many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely: it followeth that the sense of scripture is against the shew of wordes in sundrie places, and therfore that the shew of words sundrie times is against the truth. Which sith you cannot sée in this Sacrament, because of your preiudice of the p. 70reall presence: I will bring an example of the sacrament of baptisme, wherein you must needes sée it. There were ggSeleacus et Herm…a, G… la… Philastr. …. haeres.some of old, who, as we sprinckle children with water in baptizing of them, so they vsed to print and stampe certaine marks vponupon them with fire. For the which vsage they alleaged the scripture, (I meane, the wordes thereof) that, touching Iohn Baptist: hhLuc. 3.16.Luke 3:16who saying of himselfe, I baptize you with water, addeth of our Sauiour, He will baptize you with the holie Ghost and fire. Now, I put the matter to your owne iudgement, whether they did better, who baptized with fire: or we, who without it.

Hart.

Who doubteth, but we? For they were deceiued who tooke the name of fire properly in that place: where it is vsed figuratiuely, to signifie the graces of the holie Ghost, who lighteneth and purgeth the hartes of the faithfull. They, who did baptize in that sort, were heretikes: as iiAlphons. a Castro aduers. haeres. lib. 3.Alphonsus sheweth.

Rainoldes.

Yet the shew of words dooth make more for thē: Iohn baptized with water, Christ baptizeth with fire. Neither hauehave you here so much as that euasion, (which yet if you had, were nothing to the purpose) that it is manifest to be meant, not properly, but figuratiuely. For there hauehave béene kkPaul. Venet. de regionib. orientalib. li. 3. cap. 43. Matth. Paris in Henrico tert. Petr. Bizar. in histor. rer. Per sicar. lib. 10.sundry churches and nations these many hundred yeares, that vsed it, and doo still: induced all thereto by the shew of wordes, as manifest to be meant not figuratiuely, but properly, in their iudgement. And your reall presence hath not gone so far in the one Sacrament with this is my bodie: as their firie markes hauehave gone in the other with the holie Ghost and fire. Wherefore (to returne to the point in questiō) although it may séeme by the shew of words that our Sauiour promised the keyes of the kingdome of heauen to Peter onelyonly: yet, sith he meant them to all the Apostles (as I hauehave declared) your claime will be a bare shew, if all your proofe be shew of wordes. And therefore, as I said, so I say againe, that you must bring vsus foorth some better euidence: or els your title will be naught.

Hart.

And I tell you againe, that the euidence is good: and hath not onelyonly shew of words, but sense too, if it be rightly taken. But we retaine not you to be our lawier to expound it.

Rainoldes.

I am not in hast to be retained of you. But what mislike you in my expounding of it?

Hart.

That, which shall kéepe me from yelding thereunto. p. 71For your exposition is a priuate exposition, which we allow not of. We allow onelyonly of the churches exposition.

Rainoldes.

Then I perceiue the church shall be your lawier. And what is (I pray you) the churches exposition.

Hart.

**Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 7. c. 13. & l. 11. ca. 5.That which all the Fathers make with one consent.

Rainoldes.

Which all the Fathers make? We had néede to hauehave bodies like the bodies of Oakes, and memories as strong as stéele, to endure to reade, and be sure to remember of eueryevery exposition, so much, as may ascertaine vsus, that all the Fathers make it. Hath any man liuing read them all? Nay, hauehave all the men liuing read them? Nay, can they shewe them? Can they get them? I had almost said, can they name them?

Hart.

Womeane of the Fathers which are extant commonly, and may be had and read. If many of them make it, and the rest either gainsay it not, or say nought of it: we count it to bée made of all with one consent.

Rainoldes.

That count is euill cast. For, as in the writings of Fathers which we hauehave, some one expoundeth places of Scripture oftentimes otherwise then all the rest, ttSixt. Senen. biblioth. sanct. li. 5. & 6. Aloys. Lipom. caten. in Genes. & Exod.(a thing notorious and confessed:) so, it is likely that in those which we hauehave not some places were otherwise expounded thē they be in those which we hauehave. Yet I will not deny but you had reason so to count. For else your lawier had béene dumbe, and could not hauehave spoken a word for his client. But if this be your rule of the churches exposition: then I could hauehave made mine exposition, the churches, with a wet finger, if I would hauehave stuffed it with the names of Fathers. For my words of Peter, that he alone made answere for all the Apostles, & receiued the keyes togither with them all, are the wordes of uuIn Iohan. tractat. 118.S. Austin, though I did not name him. And xxIn Psal. 38.Ps 38S. Ambrose saith of that promise of Christ (I will giuegive thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen, and the rest which followeth) that what is said to Peter, is said to the Apostles. And yyAduers. Iouinian. lib. 1.Ierom saith, that the foundation and firmenesse of the church lay on all the Apostles equally, and they did all receiue the keyes. And zzIn Matth. tractat. 1.Origen saith, that Christes promise of building his church, of giuing the keyes, of binding and loosing, made as to Peter onelyonly, was common vntounto all. And aaDe Trinitat. lib. 6.Hilarie saith in like sort, that through the worthinesse of their faith they obtained p. 72the keyes of the kingdome of heauen, and the power of binding and loosing in heauen and earth. Neither doo I doubt but other of the Fathers hauehave said as much as these in the expounding of these words. But hauehave they or not: this is no path for vsus to walke in, if we séeke the right way. For neither might we hope for an ende of our trauels because of sundrie expositions, one contrarie to an other: and we should faint for thirst in time of heate and drouth, looking for water in the wildernesse, as **Iob. 6.19.Job 6:19the trauellers of Tema: and (that is woorst of all) sometimes wee should leaue the pure water of truth, and swill vp puddle in stéed of it. For, although the Fathers were men indued of God with excellent gifts, and brought no small light to vnderstanding of the scriptures: yet learned men in our dayes may giuegive a right sense of sundrie places thereof which the Fathers saw not, yea against the which perhaps they consent.

Hart.

The bb…. 4.Councell of Trent condemneth them that say so.

Rainoldes.

As learned men, as any were at that Councell, say it. And they doo it too.

Hart.

Who? Caluin and Beza?

Rainoldes.

Truely, I doo iudge no lesse of their learning. And, if I be of any iudgement, I iudge not parcially in it. But thinke of thē as you list. S. ccRetractation. lib. 2. cap. 18.Austin, hauing folowed S. Cyprian in expounding a certaine place of Scripture, afterward did finde in Tyconius the Donatist an other exposition: which thinking to be truer, he preferred it before Cyprians. Whereby you may sée, that, although you thought as yll of Caluin and Beza, as did S. Austin of the Donatists, yet, if you had S. Austins minde, you would rather follow the sense which they giuegive sometimes of the scriptures, then that which is giuen by auncient godly Fathers. Neuerthelesse, my minde was not of them, when I mentioned learned men. For, to what purpose? Sith I am not ignorant how small account you make of them. My minde was of your owne men, who say so, and doo so.

Hart.

What? Against the Councell of Trent? UUho bée they?

Rainoldes.

First, the flower of your Cardinals, the ddIn praefat. cō ment. in libros Mosis.Cardinall Caietan, beginning to expound the scriptures, dooth set it downe for a principle, that God hath not tied the exposition p. 73of the scriptures vntounto the senses of the Fathers. UUherefore if he fall vponupon a new sense agreeable to the text, **Quamuis a torrente Doctorum sacrorum sit alienus.though it go against the streame of the Fathers: he doth aduise the reader not to mislike of it.

Hart.

But the flower of our Bishops, Bishop eeLocor. Theologico. li. 7. ca. 3.Melchior Canus misliketh the Cardinal for that his rash sentence: and reprooueth it as an errour, yea as the common sentence of heretikes and schismatikes.

Rainoldes.

But the flower of your Doctors, ddAndrad. defens. fid. Trid. lib. 2.D. Payua Andradius, rebuketh this your Bishops reproofe, as more rash: yea defendeth Caietan against it as a slander. He teacheth first, that the Fathers doo in many places not expound the Scriptures according to the literall sense, (the onelyonly which hath weight to proue pointes of faith,) but allegorically and morally. We may leaue their allegories and expound them literally. He teacheth next, that when they seeke the literall senses of the scriptures, they doo not alwaies finde them, but giuegive diuers senses one vnlike an other. We may forsake their senses all, and bring a new vnlike to theirs. Moreouer, (to make the thing euident by examples) him selfe expoundeth sundry places otherwise then the Fathers hauehave: declaring that hée doth it vponupon sufficient ground. Againe, he proueth by the sayings of the chiefe of the Fathers, that they spake not oracles whē they expounded the Scriptures, but might therein be deceiued. He sheweth furthermore, that the ouersightes of the translatiō which they followed, must cause them needes to misse sometimes the right meaning of the holie Ghost. Finally, he addeth that experience forceth vsus to confesse (vnlesse we will be vnthankfull to most excellent wittes) that verie manie things in Moses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly (through the diligence of learned men) then euer they were before. Whereupon he concludeth that the holy Ghost, the onelyonly and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures, would hauehave manie things to be knowne to vsus, which our auncestors knew not: and hath wrought by meanes, (vnknowne to vsus, knowne to him) that the Fathers noted good and godlie mysteries out of verie manie places of the Scriptures, whereof the right and naturall sense hath beene found out by the posteritie. This is, in few words, the iudgement of Andradius, which he prosecuteth p. 74more at large; in the defense of Cardinall Caietan against quarellers; who did cauill at him because he wrote that it is lawfull to go against the streame of the auncient Fathers in expounding of the Scriptures.

Hart.

I care not for the iudgement of Andradius, or Caietan, or any other priuate man, though you could bring a hundred of them. I doo not build my faith on them.

Rainoldes.

Although you care not for their iudgement, yet you should care for their reasons. Of which the light is so great: that, vnlesse a man hauehave altogether lost his eyes, he can not choose but see the truth and brightnesse of them. Neither may you set so litle by their iudgement: chiefly the iudgement of Andradius. If you doo: it may be the price of his contempt will helpe to purchase your confusiō. For, the Councel of Trent, nnCampian. rat. 4. Quae medulla, Theologorum.the fairest flower of your garland, & chiefest piller of your faith, is but the consent of a few such, as Andradius was, or rather none such perhaps. Let 11Oso. epist. praefixa Andrad. Defens. fid. Trident.the Italians witnes it, who wondred at his gifts. Theyloue not them selues so ill, as to woonder at common thinges in straungers. A great token of it, that the faith of Trent most iustly charged by Kemnicius, (who tried the Spirit of the Councell, and proued it the Spirit of errour) found no man to defend it, but Andradius, to speake of. For 22I…doc. Rauestey… Tilet. defens. decret. cōc. Trident.Tiletan is a trifler, not woorthy to be named the same day that he is. But let the Authours, with their reasons, be proofes of no value: and grant, that if the Fathers all consent in one, their exposition must be stood too. What, if the Fathers dissent in expounding a place of the Scripture, as oftentimes they doo? Which of their expositions must we follow then?

Hart.

If one expound a thing otherwise then all the rest, the rest must be followed, and he must be refused. As by D. Stapletons example in S. Austin I shewed ddChapt. 2. Diui…. 1.ere-while.

Rainoldes.

S. Austin was against you then. But if he make for you, though he be alone, you will leaue all and follow him: whereof you giuegive notable proofe in the diuision of the ten commandements. For, the second commandement against the worship of Images, Thou shalt not bow downe to them nor worship them, because the words are sharpe, and rip the hart strings of your church, whose spirituall hooredomes doo passe the hoordomes of Iezabel, and all your temples are stewes of them: therfore p. 75you omit it in ffOffic. B. Mar. virg. reform. a Pio Q…i…t.praierbookes and ggThe catechisme of Vau… in English, and Ledesima in Italian.catechismes; & to salue the matter, least thereby we should hauehave no more thē nine commandements, you cut the tenth into two. Now for this, hhQua…st 71. in Exodum.S. Austin is all in all with you: the rest of the Fathers go for naught. Yet the rest expound it literally as it were: S. Austin fansied a mysterie, that the number of three commandements touching God might betoken the Trinitie. Thus vnderunder the colour of one Fathers iudgement against all the rest, you conceale the second commandement from the people, least your vile idolatrie, or iiSanders treatise of Images. chap. 8.imagedoulie as you smooth it, should grow (by the hearing thereof) into mislike. Indéede, whatsoeuer you say of the Fathers, to bleare the peoples eyes: you vse them as marchaunts are wont to vse their counters. Sometime they stand with you for pence, sometime for powndes, euen as they be next and readiest at hande to make vp your accountes.

Hart.

UUhy? Thinke you that none, but S. Austin onelie, hath so diuided the commandements?

Rainoldes.

I finde none alleaged of your kkMagist. sentent. li. 3. Dist. 37. Thom. Aquin. in prima secundae q. 100. a…tic. 4.Schoolemen, but him.

Hart.

You may. For Clemens Alexandrinus is alleaged also by Father Robert in his llIn quaest. 100. conclus. 4.Dictates vponupon S. Thomas.

Rainoldes.

Clemens is smally bound to Father Robert for alleaging of him. Neither will he get credit: nor you aduantage by it. For mmStrom. lib. 6.Clemens, though he number no more then three commandements touching our duetie towardes God: yet neyther doth he number any more then six touching our duetie towardes man; and of the tenth he maketh but one, which you make two. So that, through omitting the second commaundement, as part annexed to the first: Clemens found no more commandements then nine, whereas nnExod. 34.28.Exod 34:28the scriptures number ten. UUherefore, either Clemens maketh nothing for you: or at least no more for you then vsus.

Hart.

Yes. For the later place of sixe commaundementes, wherein Clemens maketh for you, is corrupted. The former is sound, wherein he maketh for vsus.

Rainoldes.

Iust. For ooDictat. in s…m. Tho. Aquin. q. 100. concl. 4.Father Robert saith so. And hee belike is **foreign. Diogen. Laert. in Pythag.Pythagoras. All the proofe, is, He said it. Else, what reason hauehave you, why the later place (if Clemens be corrupted) should be thought rather to be corrupted then the former? This p. 76was wont to be, with young Logicians in Oxford a schoolers tricke at Paruis: to say that the place in Aristotle is corrupted, when they could not vnloose a knotte. In déede your latin, either translatour, or printer, ppPutting doctrina for decima.hath corrupted Clemens in the chiefe place that he doth make for vsus against you. Which I say, not (as father Robert doth) vponupon my word without proofe: but the verie drift and course of Clemens treatise, and qqforeign.the greeke copie agréeing fullie with it, conuinceth it to be so. As for the repugnancie that is betwéene these pointes in the true copie of Clemens: it séemeth not to hauehave growne of either place corrupted, but of an ouersight & slippe of memorie in Clemens, by reason of a digression which he fell into vponupon occasion of the precept to sanctifie the Sabbath day. And this is the likelier, because there is some bodie touched by rrIn Exod. homil. 8.Origen for so diuiding the commandements: and we find not anie that hath diuided them so before Clemens; who was Origens maister. Which also father Robert himselfe hath obserued. Wherefore you may not looke for anie helpe at the hands of Clemens: S. Austin you must stand alone with, and folow one against all.

Hart.

No doubt there be more of that mind then he: although I know not who they be. For ssIn confess. Augustin. lib. 2. ca. 6. tit. 5.Torrensis, a learned Iesuit, saith that this diuision of the ten commandements, three of them to touch our duetie towardes God, and seuen towardes man, is a point of doctrine very common and familiar both vntounto S. Austin, and to **Antiquitati omni.all antiquitie. UUhereby you may see that S. Austin is not alone of that iudgement.

Rainoldes.

Nay: I see not that. But I see an other thing, which it were reason that you should sée also.

Hart.

UUhat is that?

Rainoldes.

I sée that the Iesuit maketh no conscience of lying, so that it be for aduantage: as ttDori… the bawde in Terence. Non pudet vanitatis… Minimé, dum ob rem.a lewd person professeth in the poet. For whereas the commandements, which touch our duetie towardes God, are noted to be foure, (and that of Images, one of them) by the chiefest autours and witnesses of antiquitie; first by the Hebrues, (as uuLibr. de Decalog. & duob. opuse. de legib. specialib.Philo and xxAntiquit. I…d. lib. 3. cap. 4.Iosephus shew) who hauehave still continued of the same mindes, yyAben Ezra in Exod. 20.Exod 20(as it may séeme) in their posteritie; next, by the Grecians, zzIn versib. de Decalogo.Gregorie Nazianzen, aaIn Exo. hom. 8.Origen, bbIn synopsi sacrae scripturae.Athanasius, ccIn Matthae. opere imperf. hom. 49.Chrysostome, or whosoeuer was autour of the worke vnperfit vponupon Matthew; thirdlie, by the p. 77Latins, ddIn epist. ad Ephes. cap. 6.Eph 6S. Ambrose, eeIn epist. ad Ephes. cap. 6.Eph 6S. Ierom, and one more auncient then they both, ffAugust. quaestion. vet. & nou. Test. c. 7.the autour of the questions of the olde and newe Testament: neuerthelesse this Iesuit, as though his face were hardned, like the face of an harlot, blu…heth not to say, that antiquitie, that all antiquitie doth affirme the contrarie.

Hart.

You are perswaded too hardly of Torrensis. I can not think that he would pretend al antiquitie, vnlesse he had known, if not all, yet the most to be of that mind.

Rainoldes.

You hauehave conceiued too lightlie of Torrensis, I can not thinke that he would alleage not one witnesse out of all antiquitie, if he had known anie of that mind in déede. Chieflie séeing that he is so ambitious in citing Fathers when he hath them, that, to proue the church was builded vponupon Peter, ggConfess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 9. tit. 2.hee quoteth no lesse then eight and fortie places out of Doctors and Councels, to let go other writers which (he saith) he passeth ouer. But, graunt there is perhaps some one, or two, or three, or foure (whom your Iesuits hauehave not found yet) that are of S. Austins mind in that point. If fewer of the Fathers expound a place of scripture contrarie to more of them: which shall we folow thē? the lesser or the greater number?

Hart.

**Hieron. Torren. con…ess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 11· tit. 1.The greater number. For a few may bee deceiued more easely then many.

Rainoldes.

Then must you bidde your Schoolemen nowe adieu, and agree with vsus in the diuision of the commandements; though we giuegive you Clemens (whom father Robert citeth) and three or foure voices more. Howbeit I can not vrge you to do it, vnlesse that you doo it vponupon surer ground: because this ground is slabbie, and the rule vnsure for men to walke on. For, that the greater number of the Fathers expoundeth Scriptures woorse sometimes then the lesser: it appeareth by the controuersie betwéene hhEpist. 19.Austin and iiEpist. 11. i…ter epistolas August.Ierom, concerning the reproofe of Peter: whether Paule rebuked him in earnest, as blameworthie; or dissembled with him, and made 11Mendacium officiosum. August.a duetifull lie, which Ierom termed 22Hones…am. dispens…tionem. …ie…on.an honest policie. For, kkCon…ess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 1. t…t. 1.your selues graunt, that Austin (who thought that Paule reproued him in earnest) did iudge therin more soundly & truely then Ierom did, who thought that he dissembled. Yet Ierom alleaged more Fathers on his side▪ and made so great account of them, that llEpist. 11. inter epist. August.he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre. Whereupon p. 78mmEpist. 19.S. Austin replyed, that peraduenture hee might finde as manie Fathers on his side, if he had read much. But I, saith he, hauehave Paule the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all, and aboue these all. To him do I flie, to him I appeale from all the Doctors (his interpreters) who are of other mindes. Of him do I aske, whereas he writeth to the Galatians, that hee sawe Peter not going with a ryght foote to the truth of the Gospell, and that hee withstood him to his face for it, bicause by that dissembling hee constrayned the Gentiles to doo lyke the Iewes: whether he wrote true, or did lye perhaps **Nescio qua dispensatiua Falsitate.with I know not what politike falshood. And I do heare him (a litle before) making a very religious protestation, in the beginning of the same discourse, The thynges whych I write vntounto you, beholde, I witnes before God, I lye not. Let them, who are of other mindes, pardon me. I beleeue rather so great an Apostle, swearing in his owne and for his owne words, then anie man be he neuer so learned, talking of the words of an other. A wise and frée iudgement, worthie of S. Austin. Whereby you may perceiue that your rule of folowing the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures, is but a leaden rule, not fitte which should be vsed to square out stones by, for building of the Lords temple.

Hart.

This of Austin sheweth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers, and refuse their iudgement. But that (as **Confess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 11. tit. 1.Torrensis hath obserued well) must bee with two cautions. One, that the thing wherein we varie from them be a knowne truth. The other, that we do it with reuerence and modestie.

Rainoldes.

UUith reuerence and modestie? God forbid else. As nnIob. 33.1.Job 33:1Elihu reproued Iob: as ooGal. 2.14.Gal 2:14Paule reproued Peter. But for the other caution: how shall we know a thing to be a knowne truth?

Hart.

One…way to know it, and that a good way, **Staplet. princip. doct lib. 7. cap. 17.is the common testimonie of the faithfull people, if they with one consent beleeue it to be true.

Rainoldes.

This bringeth vsus small helpe to the expounding of scriptures. For things may be true: and yet a place of scripture not applied truely and rightly to proue them. As it is plaine in places, ppDeut. 6.4. Augustin S…euchus Chisam. epis cop. apud Sixtū Senensem biblioth. sanct. lib. 5. annot. 130.Deut 6:4that hauehave béene applied by Christians against the Iewes. But let it be a good way. UUhat, if the faithfull people p. 79doo dissent? As, in the question which we hauehave in hand about the Popes supremacy, the people of the east church dissented from the west, many hundred yeares together. UUhat shall we doo then?

Hart.

Then an other way (a better way to finde it) **Staplet. princip. doctr. lib. 7. cap. 8.is the common testimonie of the faithfull Pastors, if they doo decrée it in a generall councell. As for the Popes supremacy they did in the **VnderUnder Pope Innocent the third, capit. 5.Councell of Lateran.

Rainoldes.

The Bishops of the east church qqTit. general. octauae Synod. Florent. & epist. Ieremiae Constantinopolit. patriarchae.say that the Councell of Lateran was not generall: which the Pope him selfe doth acknowledge also, rrIn c. Item Adrianus. Dist. 16. c. Sancta octo. Contius.as it is noted on your law. But here the former difficulties méete vsus againe, and bréede the same perplexitie. For there are but few places of Scripture which generall Councels hauehave expounded: neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest. Againe, although ssStaplet. princip. doctrin. li. 8. cap. 14. & 15. lib. 11. cap. 6.you say that generall Councels can not erre in their conclusions: yet you say they may erre in applying of Scriptures to prooue their conclusions. Lastly, generall Councels may dissent too: ttConcil. Eph. 2. & Concil. Chalcedon.Eph 2as heretofore they hauehave in a weightie point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of, as our conference will shew: you sée that you hauehave not yet resolued me. One question I must aske you more. In this case, when Councels say nothing of Scriptures; or misapply them, in proofes; or dissent, in conclusions: what are we to doo?

Hart.

If Councels dissent, we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head. And (to answere all your questions in a word) whether with the Councels or without the Councels, that which the Head determineth, is a knowne truth: that which the Head condemneth is a knowne errour.

Rainoldes.

**Staplet. princip. doctrin. li. 7. cap. 10. & li. 10. cap. 11.You meane by the Head, not our Sauior Christ, but the Pope, I trow.

Hart.

I: the visible head.

Rainoldes.

Doo you not sée then by your owne answeres, that whatsoeuer shew you make of Fathers and Councels: the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke? So that, (to bring it to the point in controuersie) whereas our question is, whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church: you say, He is so. UUhen we sift the matter, and séeke the reasons, why: this is the summe of all, Because him selfe saith so. I thought, that p. 80the church should hauehave béene your lawier to expounde your euidences: but now I perceiue that you meant the Pope. Hée is the churches husband (belike) and in matters of law dealeth for her. I cannot blame you, though you be content to make him your iudge too. For if he giuegive sentence, in this cause, against you: I will neuer trust him.

Hart.

You doo gather more of mine answers, then I meant. I pray make your owne collections, and not mine.

Rainoldes.

I doo gather nothing, but that which you hauehave scattered. For, you began to try this point touching the Pope by the wordes of Scripture. The wordes (we agrée) decide by y^e sense: y^e sense must be tried (you say) by y^e Fathers: the Fathers by y^e truth: the truth by the people: the people by the Councels: the Councels by the Pope. If one of vsus should make but a semblance of such an answere: you would sport your selues with it, and call it a uuCampian. Rat. 9.Circulation, and 11Eccum, quas rotas, quos gyros fabricat▪cry against our impudency, & 22O Circulos. Campian. Rat. 4.whoope at it like stage players. But you may daunse such roundes, and yet perswade men that you go right forward with great sobrietie and grauitie.

Hart.

Howsoeuer you dally with your circulations, & rounds, as you call them: I say no more, but this, that if a truth cannot be knowne otherwise, then the last meane to resolue vsus of it, is the Popes authoritie. But there néeded not so much adoo hereof, if I proue that Christ did giuegive that supremacie (whereof we talked) to S. Peter.

Rainoldes.

You can neuer proue that Christ did giuegive it him, but by **Col. 3.16.Col 3:16the word of Christ, which is the holie scripture. And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense, not in the shew of wordes. UUherefore, it was néedfull, sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will, that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne. UUhich, séeing you would hauehave me to fetch from the Pope, and I hauehave no lust to go vntounto Rome, nor thinke it lodgeth in 11The Palace of the Pope.the Vatican, so y^t by this way no agréement can be made, or ende of controuersie hoped for: I will take a shorter and a surer way, confessed by vsus both to be a good way, whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found, and so the will of Christ be knowne.

Hart.

UUhat way may that be?

Rainoldes.

To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his p. 81word, and let his spirit teach it: that is, to expound the scripture by the scripture. A golden rule, to know, and try the truth from errour: prescribed by the Lord, and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie. For, xx2. Pet. 1. ver. 19.2 Pet 1:19the holie Ghost, exhorting the Iewes, to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles, that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes: saith, that yyver. 20.no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation: because, in the prophecie (that is, the scripture of the Prophetes) they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost, not as the will of man did fansie. UUhich reason sith it implieth, as the Prophetes, so the Apostles: and it is true in them all, the holie men of God, spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost: it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God, because zz2. Tim. 3.16.2 Tim 3:16it is inspired of God: as **L. Si. Cod. De legib. et constitutionib. Principum.natures light hath taught that he who made the law, should interpret the law. This rule commended to vsus by the prescript of God, and as it were sanctified by aaNehem. 8.8. foreignNeh 8:8the Leuites practise in the olde Testament, and bbIn the epistles to the Romans, Galatians, Hebrues.the Apostles in the new: the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church hauehave followed, in their preaching, their writing, their deciding of controuersies in Councels. UUherefore, if you desire in déede the churches exposition, and would so faine finde it: you must go this way, this is the churches way: that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you. For, S. Austin, **Confession. Augustinian. praefat. ad lecto.whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes, the maners, the iudgementes of all the catholike church: whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion, such a witnesse as no exception can be made against: who assureth you (as you say) not onelyonly of his owne, but also of the common, the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church: this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine, wherein he purposely entreateth, how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it. The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke, which I hauehave pointed too: that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture, aaAugust. de doctrin. Christ. li. 1. cap. 2.by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it: that bbcap. 35.the ende whereto, cccap. 37.the matter whereof, it is all writen, be marked in generall, ddcap. 36. & 40.and p. 82all be vnderstood according to that end and matter: that eeLib. 2. cap. 8.al be read ouer & ouer, & ffcap. 9.those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly, both precepts of life, and rules of beliefe, because that all things, which concerne beliefe and life, are plainly written in it: that obscure & darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest: that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed: that ggcap 11.recourse be had vntounto the Greeke and Hebrue copies, to cleare out of the fountaines, if the translation be muddie: that hhLib 3. cap. 2. & 3.doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith, which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture: that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed, what goeth before, what commeth after; iicap. 5.the maner how, kkcap. 10.the cause why, llcap. 17.the men to whom, mmcap. 18.the time when, eueryevery thing is saide: to be short, that nncap. 27.still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken; if we finde it not, yet giuegive such a sense as agreeth with the right faith, approued by some other place of scripture: oocap. 28.if a sense be giuen, the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture, it might be proued by reason; but this custome is dangerous; the safer way far, is, to walke by the scripture, the which (being shadowed with darke and borowed words) when we mind to search, let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie, or, if it hauehave doubt, let it be determined by the same scripture, through witnesses to be found & vsed thence wheresoeuer: y^t so (to conclude) ppLib. 4. cap. 3.all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures, the which are called Canonical, as being the Canon, that is to say the rule of godlines and faith. Thus you sée the way, the way of wisedome and knowledge, which Christ hath prescribed, the church hath receiued, S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise, both in this treatise and in qqDe Genes. ad liter. l. 1. c. 21. Enchir. ad Laurent ca. 68. De ciuit. Dei li. 11. cap. 33. & lib. 15. cap. 7. De vnit. eccles. ca. 16. Epist. 48. ad Vincent. De verb. Dom. serm. 2. Retract. li. 2. cap. 54. &c. In comment. Sermon. …actat. & epist.others, agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers. Which way, sith it is lyked both by vsus and you, though not so much followed of you as of vsus: I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe, but it must enforce you at least to allow it.

Hart.

I graunt, it neither can, nor ought to be denyed, that p. 83eueryevery one of those things, and specially, if they be ioined all togither, doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly. But **Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 11. ca. ….yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are, which we preferre before them. Neither do they helpe alwaies; nay, sometimes they do hurt rather, and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them. This is not onelye said, but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers, by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement, our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie, the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway. Of whose most wholesome worke, entitled, A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith: one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes, way and order, how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures. In the which hee layeth this for a ground, that rrStaplet. princ. doctr. lib. 11. c. 1.the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith. Whereupon sscap. 2.he condemneth the Protestantes opinion, that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures. Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully: he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures; ttcap. 3.the first, very certaine and sure, the rule of faith; uucap. 4.the next, no lesse certaine, the practise of the church; xxcap. 5.the third, at least probable, the consent of the Fathers; yycap. 6.the last, most infallible, the councels interpretation. And zzcap. ….these meanes, he saith, are the onelyonly certaine sure infallible meanes, of vnderstanding and expounding the Scripture aright. As for other meanes, which learned men do vse, such as you obserued out of S. Austin: he graunteth they are profitable, but deceitfull many waies, if ech of them be seuerally taken by it selfe. Which he proueth in particular by the chiefest of them: first, the weighing of circumstances, what goeth before, what commeth after; next, the wordes and kinde of speeches vsed in the Scriptures; thirdly, aacap. 10.the conferēce of places togither, one to be lightned by an other; fourthly, bbcap. 12.recourse to the fountaines of the Greeke and the Hebrue text. Wherefore, though I acknowledge your way to be a good way, and such as I am well content to walke in, when these our waies shall lead me to it: notwithstanding, sith it is cccap. 9.common to vsus with all Heretikes, yea with Iewes and Painims; (who do all, conferre places, obserue the kinde of spéeches, looke on the Gréeke and p. 84Hebrue fountaines, marke what goeth before, what commeth after, and such like thinges; and yet they are verye farre from the true vnderstanding of the scriptures;) I will my selfe practise it when I shall see good: but there is no reason of yours that can enforce me to allow it simply.

Rainoldes.

The treatise of your Doctor against the Protestants opinion, is like the army of Antiochus prepared against the Romans: verie great and huge of men of many nations, but white liuered souldiours: neither so strong with armour, as glistering with gold and siluer. Antiochus him selfe was amazed at it, and thought it vnuincible: so did the simple fooles of his country too. But ddLiui. lib. 37.the Romans contemned it: and eePlutarch. in compar. Scipio. & Annib.Annibal iested at it. The name of Protestants, (which ffStaplet. princip. doctr. lib. 7. cap. 15. & li. 11. cap. 10.he vseth tauntingly as all one with Heretikes) wée are no more ashamed of, then were the gg2. Chron. 24.19.2 Chr 24:19Prophets and hhAct. 2.40. & 8.25. & 10.42.Acts 2:40Acts 8:25Acts 10:42Apostles: whom the Spirit of God hath honored with that title because they did make a protestation of their faith, iiSleidan. de statu relig. & reip. lib. 6.vponupon the like occasion, as did the faithfull in Germany when they were noted by that name. The Protestants opinion, I hauehave alreadie shewed to be the opinion of the auncient Protestants, the Fathers, the Apostles, the holie Ghost who spake by them. If you call it an errour: we are content to erre with them. If he thinke it an heresie: we are no better then Paul, kkAct. 24.14. & 26.22.Acts 24:14Acts 26:22who in such heresie serued God. The ground which llStapl. princip. doctr. li. 11. ca. 1. & 2.he layeth for the disproofe of it: is such, that it séemeth, his wits and he had made a fray when he layed it. He saith, that the scripture ought to be expounded by the rule of faith, and therfore not by scripture onelyonly. Which is (in effect) as if a man should say: the church must be taught by liuing creatures endued with reason, and therefore not by men onelyonly. For as a liuing creature endued with reason, and a man, is all one, which euerie childe knoweth by the principles of logicke: so the rule of faith, and scripture is all one, doth not your Doctor know it? It is a principle of diuinitie, deliuered by S. Austin, whom mmcap. 3.he pretendeth (chiefly, in this point) to follow.

Hart.

And doth he not follow him? Doth he not alleage S. Austins owne wordes, nnAugust. de doctr. Christ. li. 3. cap. 2.In a doubtfull place of scripture let a man seeke the rule of faith, which rule hee hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures, and of the authoritie of the church: to proue that the rule of faith must be fetched out of the p. 85authoritie of the church also, not out of scriptures onelyonly?

Rainoldes.

Yes: he doth alleage S. Austins wordes in déed: but as ooMat. 26.61.Matt 26:61the false witnesses alleaged Christes wordes of destroying the temple, and building it in three dayes: the wordes, against the meaning. Which tricke ppIn fraudem legis facit, qui…. uis verbis legisententiam en… circumuenit. L. Contra. Dig. de legibus Senatusque consultis.the law noteth as an abusing of the lawe: yet is it common with your Doctor. For as Christ, when he spake of raising the temple, by the temple qqIoh. 2.19.John 2:19meant his bodie, the witnesses did wrest it to the temple of Ierusalem: so, the authoritie of the church is mentioned by S. Austin, as teaching scriptures onelyonly, your Doctor alleageth it, as teaching somewhat beside the scriptures.

Hart.

This is strange, that S. Austin, by, the authoritie of the church, meant no more then by the plainer places of the scriptures. For so much you séeme to say in effect.

Rainoldes.

Be it strange: yet is it true. For him selfe declareth that to be his meaning, not onelyonly by the rest of his whole treatise, wherein he doth establish the scriptures alone for the rule of faith, to shew the sense of doubtfuller places by the plainer: but also by the ende of this your owne sentence, which Stapleton (in alleaging it) either negligently passed, or craftily suppressed: vnlesse the fault perhaps be in some other, with whose eyes he read it. For rrAug. de doctr. Christian. lib. 3. cap. 2.after these wordes, let him seeke the rule of faith, which rule he hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures, and of the authoritie of the church: it followeth in S. Austin, Of which rule we hauehave sufficiently entreated in the first booke, when we spake of thinges. Now, in that discourse (to which he referreth vsus) he spake not of any thing as taught by the church, but what is in the scripture. Wherefore, in these wordes, by the authoritie of the church, he meant not any thing beside the scripture. If he did: shew it. If he did not: acknowledge it.

Hart.

He did. For, in the first booke where he spake of things, hee shewed that sscap. … ▪the doctrine of the Trinitie is comprised in that rule of faith. Which yet is not expresly set downe in the scriptures.

Rainoldes.

Expresly? What meane you by this word expresly?

Hart.

I meane, that it is not expressed in the scriptures.

Rainoldes.

What? Not the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie: p. 86the Father, the Sonne, and the holie Ghost?

Hart.

Not all that our faith doth hold of the Trinitie.

Rainoldes.

God forbid that we should hold of such a mysterie more then he teacheth by his word.

Hart.

Certainly, S. Austin ttEpist. 174. ad Pascentiū Com. haeres. Arian.writing to an Arian (who denied that God the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father) saith, that as we reade not in the holie scriptures the Father 11Ingenitum.vnbegotten, & yet it is defended that it must be said: in lyke sort it may be that neither 22Homousion.consubstantiall is founde written there, and yet being said in the assertion of faith may bee defended. And again uuContr. Maxim. Arianot. episc. lib. 3. cap. 3.disputing against Maximinus a Bishop of the Ariās, GiueGive me testimonies (saist thou) where the holy Ghost is worshipped: as though by those things which we do read, we vnderstood not some thinges also which wee reade not. But (that I be not inforced to seeke many) where hast thou read God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne? And yet it is true.

Rainoldes.

And thinke you that S. Austin meant by these spéeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped, God the Sonne is of one substance with the Father, God the Father is not begotten or borne?

Hart.

Hée séemeth to hauehave meant it. And xxConfess. Augustinian. lib. 1. cap. 8. tit. 4.Torrensis (who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his workes) alleageth these places to proue that Christians ought to belieue manie things which hauehave come to vsus from the Apostles themselues (deliuered as it were by hand) although they bee not written expresly in scriptures.

Rainoldes.

The Iesuit Torrensis dooth great wrong herein to the truth of God, to S. Austins credit, and to you who reade him. And yet with such a sophisme in the word [expresly:] that, if it should be laid vntounto his charge, he would wash his handes of it, as yyMat. 27.24.Matt 27:24Pilate did of Christes blood. For **cap. 8. de sacris traditionibus.he alleageth those places of S. Austin, thereby to proue Traditions: as though we had receiued that doctrine (touching God) by tradition vnwritten, not by the written word. S. Austin, no such matter. But ccEpist. 174. ad Pascentium.dealing with an Arian, who required 22Ips…m verbum homousion.the verie word consubstantiall to be shewed in scripture: doth tell him that the thing it selfe is there founde though not that word perhaps. Wherevpon, he presseth him in like sort with 11Hoc verbum, …uod Pater es…o… ingenitus.the word vnbegotten: which the Arian hauing giuen to God the Father, and p. 87defending it: S. Austin replieth, that as he had termed the Father vnbegotten, & well, although the word not written: so might the Sonne also be termed consubstantiall; sith the scripture proueth the thing meant therby. And as with this Arian: so w^t their bishop Maximinus. aaContr. Maximin. A…ian. episcop. lib. 1.Who hauing himself termed God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne, denied the holie Ghost to be equall to the Sonne, because it is not written that he is worshipped. To the which cauill of his S. bblib. 3. cap. 3. & 10.Austin answereth, that although it be not written in flat termes, yet is it gathered by necessarie consequence of that which is written, ccMatt. 4.10.Matt 4:10Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, dd1. Cor. 3.16. & 6.19.1 Cor 3:161 Cor 6:19the holy Ghost is God, therefore to bee worshipped. Thus, S. Austins meaning was of these pointes, that the scripture teacheth them. Whereby you may perceiue the fraude of Torrensis. Who saying that they are not expresly written in the scriptures, left him selfe this refuge, that hee might say they are not in expresse wordes, though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures. And yet, by referring **Tit. 4. cap. 8. de tradit.that title to traditions, induceth his reader to thinke that they are taught by tradition, not by scripture. A doctrine, which Arians will clappe their handes at: that the Sonne of God is not (by scripture) of one substance with the Father. But let it be far from you, M. Hart, to thinke so prophanely of the word of God. And, if you rest so much on Doctors of your owne side, rest here on eeSumm. Theologic. part. 1. quaest. 36. art. 2.Thomas of Aquine rather: who saith that concerning God wee must say nothing but that which is founde in the holie scripture, **Vel per ve…ba, vel per sensum.either in words, or in sense. Which, as he confirfirmeth by ffDionys. de diuin. nomin. ca. 1.Denys, and ggDamascen. de orthod. sid. lib. 1. cap. 1. & 2.Damascen: so was it the common iudgement of hhAugu. de Trinitat. lib. 1. ca. 2. & 4.the Fathers, of S. Austin chiefly, as his bookes touching the Trinitie doo shew. And, in iilib. 15. cap. 2….the conclusion thereof (for euident proofe of that which you denied) he giueth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set downe in scripture of the Trinitie. Wherfore the scripture cōpriseth the rule of faith for that point. And as for that point, so for all the rest, which kkDe doctrin. Christia…. lib. 1. cap. 35.36.37. & 40.in that very booke (whereof we spake) S. Austin noteth. It remaineth therfore that S. Austin meant not by lllib. 3. c. 2.the authoritie of the church, more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures.

Hart.

Yes: his own words in that verie sentence doo yéeld sufficient proofe (me thinkes) that he did. For, if he signified by plainer p. 88places of the scriptures, as much as he meant by the authoritie of the church then was it idle, when he had named the one, to adde the other to it: chiefly in such sort, as that is added by S. Austin. For both the coniunction, the places of scriptures, and the authoritie of the church, should import thinges different: and I may say of wordes, as the Philosopher saith of things, That is done in vaine by more that may be done by fewer.

Rainoldes.

Nothing is done in vaine, that is done to edifie. The church might well be mentioned, as an interpreter of the worde: though it teach not any thing beside the word of God. The people of Israel uuExod, 14.31.did beleeue the Lord and his seruaunt Moses: yet Moses did nothing but that the Lorde commaunded him. The wise man doth charge his sonne xxProu. 1.8.Prov 1:8to hearken to the instruction of his father, and forsake not the doctrine of his mother: yet they both (the father, and mother) teach one lesson, the chiefest wisedome, the feare of God. The same is fulfilled in this Moses, and the Lord; or rather in this mother, and our heauenly Father: of whom it hath bene said well, yyCyprian. libr. de vnitat. eccles.He cannot hauehave God to be his Father, who hath not the church to be his mother. For, God hauing purposed to make vsus his children and heires of life eternall, as he prepared his word, to be, first, the séede, zz1. Pet. 1.23.1 Pet 1:23the immortall seed, of which we are begotten a new, afterward, the milke, aa1. Pet. 2.2.1 Pet 2:2the sincere milke, whereby wee (béeing borne) grow: so he ordeined the church by her ministerie to teach it, as it were a mother, first, to conceaue and bring foorth y^e children, afterward to nourish them, as babes new borne, with her milke. Which appeareth, as by bbNamely, by Philip, Act. 8.…5. & by Peter, Act. 10.34.Acts 8:5Acts 10:34others, so chiefly by S. ccGal. 4.19.Gal 4:19Paul, who traueiled of them in childbirth, whom he sought to conuert: and when they were new borne, he **1. Cor. 3.2.1 Cor 3:2nourished them with milke: to set before our eyes the duetie of the church, and all the churches Ministers in bearing children vntounto Christ. Now, the milke which the church giueth to her children, shée giueth it out of her brestes: and her two brestes, are the two testaments of the holie scriptures (by S. ddIn epist. 1. Io…an. T…actat. 3.Austins iudgement) the old Testament, and the new. S. Austin therefore, saying, the rule of faith is receiued of the authoritie of the church: meant not that the church should deliuer any thing, but onelyonly what shee draweth out of the holie scriptures.

Hart.

Not for milke perhaps, which babes are to sucke: but p. 89for strong meate wherewith men are nourished. For mothers féede not their children, being growne, with mylke out of theyr brestes.

Rainoldes.

But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures hauehave both milke for babes, and strong meat for men: milke, in plainer thinges and easier to be vnderstood; strong meate, in harder and greater mysteries. Yea, where **Mat. 13.52▪Matt 13:52Christ said, that euerye Scribe which is taught vntounto the kingdome of heauen is lyke vntounto an housholder, who bringeth foorth out of his treasure thinges both newe and olde: S. eeContr. …a…st. Manichae. l. 14. c. 2.Austin iudgeth that hée meant by newe thinges and olde, the olde and newe testament. Wherefore, sith eueryevery pastor and teacher of the church is meant (ffStaplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 5, you graunt) by this Scribe: it foloweth by S. Austin that the meate which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the sustenance of his houshold, must be the Scripture onelyonly. Which the light of reason will induce you too, if you beléeue the former pointes. For the ggAristot. libr. … de or…u & interit.Philosopher teacheth that we are nourished by the same thinges of which we do consist. Then, if we are begotten of Gods worde, as seede: the word, as it is milke to nourish vsus, when we are young; so must it nourish vsus, when we are grown, as strong meat. But if it were so, that S. Austin had not had this opinion touching strong meat: yet must he néedes hauehave it, in that whereof we reason: for there he speaketh of milke. And he sayth that the rule of faith is receiued of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church: to note the churches practise, hhAugust. de catechizand. rudibus, cap. 3.4.6.7 &c.which, in catechizing of her young ones, taught them summarily the pointes of beléefe and the precepts of life. So that the simplest Christians, who had not read them selues the plainer places of the scriptures to learne the rule of faith, yet knewe it by the catechisme: wherin, through the ministery of the church, they learned it. Now, S. Austins catechisme hath nothing but the doctrine which Christians may sucke out of plainer places of the scriptures. His rule of faith therefore deliuered in the plainer places of the scriptures, is the same that the authoritye of the church deliuered. In déede your iiCanisius in his latin, Ledesima in his Italian, Vaux in his English catechisme.newe Doctors in their Popish catechismes hauehave precepts of the church, beside the precepts of the scriptures: & your church, kkEcclesia Roman… omnium ecclesiarum mater & magistra. Concil, Trident. Sess. 7. de …aptism, can. 3. & Sess. 14. cap. …. & Sess▪ 22, … & Sess▪ 25. dec…et. de lib. delect▪which nameth her selfe (though vntruely) the mother of al churches, hath more then two brests, a third, out of the which shee powreth poyson with her milke▪ p. 90Whereby, through good vsage, hauing killed her owne children, shee claimeth our churches children to be hers: as did ll1. King. 3.17.1 Kgs 3:17the woman before Salomon. And the whore hath got her mmSander. in epist. ad Pium Quint. dedicat. de visib. monar. Staplet. prin. doctrin. lib. 8. cap. 19.atturneies of her minions, which do not onelyonly raile at vsus for not acknowledging her to be our mother: but also belye vsus **Vulgatam catholicorum vocem de San… ta matr… ecclesia irrident hodie & execran…ur haeretici. Staplet.that we scoffe at and curse the very title of Holy mother the church. But they whom God hath blessed with the spirite of wisedome, as he did Salomon, will easily discern, that we are so far off from scoffing at and cursing, that we giuegive the name of mother to the church with reuerence and ioy. Marry, the church of Rome to be called our holy mother, which neither is holy, nor our mother: that our soules detest, and wish that her stepmotherhood may be farre from vsus. As for the rule offaith, to which she layeth claime by her aduocate, your Doctor, pleading the title out of Austin, that wee as acknowledging her child to be our sister, may take her for our mother: if we folow Salomon and rippe vp the plea with such a sword as he did; we shall find that the child is neither hers, nor **That is to say, the Popes who (in his Canon law) calleth the church his spouse. Nos iustitiam nostram & ecclesiae sponsae nostrae nolentes ne gligere. c. Quoniam. de immunitat. ecclesiar. in Sext.her husbandes, but the holy scriptures. For Austin, in saying, the rule of faith is learned of plainer places of the Scriptures and of the authoritie of the church: named the Scriptures, as the matter, the church as the minister, wherof the rule of faith is learned. Your Doctor, supposing, as wel the carpenter, as the timber, to be the stuffe, whereof the house must be builded; doth laye his axe to both togither: and squaring them alike, doth make him beames, and postes, and iuises, some of the timber, some of the carpenter. Euen so, the holy scripture is not the whole matter of the rule of faith: whereof the church ministers, as workemen, and builders, should frame the house of God: but in part, the church; in part, the scripture is the matter. Both which being molten, as were y^e nnExod. 32.3.Exod 32:3earerings of the Israelites, & wrought in fashion by your craftesman, not yéelding vntounto it of weakenes, as did Aaron, but séeking after it with greedines, as the people, who knewe not what was become of Moses: they will make a rule of faith, not of Christes, but of the Popes faith. And this if it be decked with 11With medals, agnus Deies, halowed graines, …eades, cru… …ixes, and other such iewels.deuises to the eie, as that was with gold, and set foorth by 22D. Allen, Campian, Howle…, the Censurer the Iesuites and Seminarie-priestes.men whose tongues are their owne, and voices sweete to sing the song, ooExod. 32. ver. 4.Exod 32:4These be thy Gods, ô Israel, which brought thee out of the land of Egipt: it will moue manye to daunse for ioy about it, in as holy sort, as the golden calfe did p. 91moue ppver. 6.the Israelites to doo.

Hart.

It doth not become you, to scorne in this sort so graue and learned men, as M.D. Stapleton, and others whom you touch: much lesse the church of Rome, and least of al the Popes Holines. Allens Apolog…e ofthe English Seminaries chap 2. out of Bede hist. Angl lib. 1.Whose predecessors gaue vsus our aacap. 4. Ele… the…ius.first faith in the time of the Britannes, and restored it bbcap. 23. Gregory the first, who sent Austin.afterward in the daies of the English. And do you thus reward them for it? You will make some men perhaps, (if you vse it) to giuegive their iudgement of you, with what spirite you do it.

Rainoldes.

If you will speake of him, who gaue vsus our faith: you shall do well to lift vp your eies from dust and rottennesse, and cast them somewhat qqIam. 1.17.Jas 1:17higher. Else, although I will not condemne your spirite therefore, yet I shall feare you doo not that honour to Gods rr1. Cor. 12.4.1 Cor 12:4Spirite, which would beseeme a child of God: for, ss1. Sam. 10.12.1 Sam 10:12who is their father? But, to accept them as the giuers of it, whose ministery God vsed in it: first, as it is doubted of the one side, whether the Britannes had their first faith from Eleutherius, (it is ttGildas a Bri…tan, auncienter then Bede doth affirme the contrary. And Polidor. Vi…g l. lib. hist. Ang. 2. Gildas testis eft Britannos iam inde ab initio orti Euangelii Christianam accepisse religio nem.more likely, no:) so, of the other side uuBede histor. Anglor. l. 3. c. 21. &. …2.it is confessed, that all the English had it not from Austin sent by Gregory. Then, if it were so we had it first from them: yet we receiued it not from the Popes predecessors. For, as you take the name of Pope for supreme head, and supreme head for that power which you hauehave defined: there was no Pope at all, when we receiued the faith. The bratte was not yet borne, when Gregory the first, much lesse, when Eleutherius was Bishop of Rome: as our cōnference will shew. Thirdly, if they who were the predecessours of the Pope (though not as Pope) gaue vsus our first faith: the successors can not complaine they gaue it fréely; they hauehave béene paid swéetely for it. xxGratian. 2. q. 7. c. Nossi. § cum Balaam.Your men (to set them vp) compare them to Balaam, and yyBenedict. Parisiensis, & Bullo c. Anglus in concordant▪ sacr. …criptur. Asina, ecclesia.the church to his asse. In deede (we must graunt) our church hath béene the asse: but zzThe Chronicles of Thom. Walsingham and Mat. Paris. Chiefely Mat. Paris in Henric. tert. anno Dom. 1245.1246. & 1247.your Balaam hath not refused to accept **Num. 22.18.Num 22:18a house full of siluer and gold, nay, hee hath béene glad to sue for it too. Last of all, if they had giuen it vsus fréely, and plaid a kind mothers part: neuerthelesse, of mother transgressing, as she hath done, aaHos. 2.2.Hos 2:2our father saith vntounto vsus, **Vulgat. edit. lat. Iudicate matrem vestrā ▪ iudicate.Contend with your mother, contend, that she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: to the intent she may remoue her fornications out of her sight, and her adulteries from betweene her breastes. S. Paule was bbAct. 22.3.Acts 22:3brought vp at the feete p. 92of Gamaliel: cc5.34.Gamaliel, a great Pharise. Neither was he onelyonly the scholer, but the dd23.6.sonne of a Pharise too. Yet, the duetie and louelove which Paule did owe and beare to his father and master, should neuer hauehave excused him before the iudgement-seat of God, if he had cleaued still to the Pharises sect, when God did lighten him with greater knowledge of his truth. As for me, of whom some will giuegive their iudgement with what spirite I do it, if I iest at your Pharises, or touch your holy mothers whooredomes, and villanies of your holy Father: mens iudgements I depend not of: I neither feare them nor despise them. I hauehave **1. Cor. 4.4.1 Cor 4:4a iudge to whom I stand. And I content my selfe that he assureth my spirit, I doo it with the same spirit, though not with lyke measure of the same spirit, that ee1. Kin. 18.27.1 Kgs 18:27Elias did iest at Baalites, and ffEsai. 44.16.Isa 44:16Esay did touch idolaters. Wherefore, to go forward with your discourse of D. Stapleton against our errour of expounding the scriptures by scriptures: you hauehave the grounde of it, that they must be expounded by the rule of faith, and therefore not by scriptures onelyonly. Now, as his ground is, so are his proofes: both for your owne meanes first, and afterward against ours. What infallibilitie and certaintie there is in yours, ggStaplet. princip. doctr. lib. 11. cap. 4.the practise of the church, hhcap. 5.the consent of the Fathers, iicap. 6.the Councels determination: it will appeare (in place of triall) more hereafter, it hath in part alreadie: when you were faine to flie from them all to the Pope, whom here the Doctor had forgotten. Touching ours: he proueth them to be deceitfull and vnsure, how? kkcap. 9.because each of them, if they be taken seuerally, may cause a man to erre: which he sheweth by examples in some of the particulars, as, the weighing of the circumstances, the style and phrase of scripture, llcap. 10.the conference of places, mmcap. 12.the loking on the Greeke and Hebrue. First, if it were so: what shall I call this dealing, trecherie, or folly? Wee teach of our meanes, that they all, togither, doo make a perfit way whereby wée may finde the right sense of the scripture. He replieth against vsus, that each of them, alone, and taken by it selfe, is not a perfit way to finde it. In the which aunswere, if you sée not his weakenes (to speake the best of it:) I will set before you a glasse to view it in. It is 11In the yeare of Christ, 1578.not many yeares ago, since Captaine Stukely (22Marchio Hyberniae. the Marques of Ireland, as your stories call him) nnHistor. de bello A…ricano quo per…it Sebastianus Rex Portugalliae. cap 7. Ge…ebrard. Chro…ograph. lib. 4.was sent with sixe hundred Italians by the Pope to take possession of Irelande. p. 93Which he was comming to hauehave done, but that (at the request of the King of Portugall) **He was slain there. Hist. de bello Afr. ca. 13.he went and tooke possession of Barbarie by the way. An English man might say, to comfort good subiectes, that (by Gods grace) these Italians and the Marques, if they had arriued, might hauehave bene discomfited by the Quéenes army: as the Popes souldiours were, who came after them. D. Sanders might reply, to incourage the rebels, that they néed not feare it: because the Quéenes souldiours, though they hauehave some strength, yet each of them, alone, and seuered from the rest, cannot ouercome sixe hundred Italians, with such a Captaine too. And for proofe hereof that it is verie likely, he might hauehave store of arguments, examples, and testimonies, to discourse at large: with as great eloquence, and no lesse wisedome, then D. Stapleton hath done to proue the other. Yet this in D. Stapleton is **Demonstratio methodica principiorum fidei doctrinalium Thomae Stapletoni.a demonstration. Had the other bene a demonstration too? No maruell that you send vsus so many bookes ouer, if they be fraught with wares of such demonstration. Maruell, you send no mo: vnlesse it be lawfull for none but publike readers, so subtilly to proue their things by demonstration. Now, if your Doctors answere be absurd, though none of our meanes were certaine and sure, alone, without the rest, to finde the right sense of Scripture: how much more absurd, if any one of them, alone, be sure and certaine, and that in his owne iudgement too? The conference of places of the scripture is so: though he would hide it with a mist. But the mist which ooStaplet. prine. doctr. li. 11. c. 10.he casteth, is no thicker then the former. A weake eye may sée through it. For we say, that 11Dextera collatio locorum scripturae.a right conference of places, is a way most excellent: as himselfe rehearseth our wordes of that point. And he thereto replyeth, that 22Infeliciter adhibita.a wrong conference, a left one, (so to terme it) is no such excellent way. Which is, as if we said, that wise men and vertuous are fit to beare offices in the common-weale: and he, to proue the contrarie, should say that madde men and knaues are no good magistrates. If we can sée through this mist, the conference of places is a perfit way. For that which we meane by conference of places: S. Austin doth signifie by the rule of faith. But ppcap. 1. & 3. & 9.the rule of faith, is a way infallible, in your Doctors iudgement. Therefore (to iudge him of his owne mouth) the conference of places is a way infallible. If this alone: much more this & all the rest being ioyned togither. The meanes then which p. 94we commend to vnderstand and expound the scripture: are sure and certaine meanes whereby the right sense of scripture may bée found. But your Doctor saith qqcap. 9.that al heretikes, and Iewes, & Paynims vse these meanes, they conferre places, they note the kinde of speeches, they looke vponupon the fountains, they marke what goeth before, what commeth after, & such like things. If they doo not so: your Doctor ouer-lasheth. If they doo so: they doo more then himselfe dooth in many cōtrouersies of faith, which yet he teacheth publikely, and printeth them too. What? And do all heretikes, Iewes and Paynims vse these meanes: and doth none of them sée the churches practise; marke the consent of Fathers; read the decrees of councels? If anie of them doo; which it is euident many doo: then by as wise a reason, as your Doctor maketh, these his owne meanes are not sure neyther. Which were a sore consequence, and would raze the church of Rome vntounto the ground. Let him bethinke him selfe thereof, and heale the breaches, which (if he looke not to it) his owne shot will make in the walles of his Ierusalem. As for vsus and our meanes, if any seeme to vse them, and yet misse the right sense of the scripture: I say with rrDe doctrin. Christian. lib. …. a prolog….S. Austin (whom this quarell maketh as much against, as vsus;) If they who know these precepts, cannot see the things which are obscure and darke in the Scriptures of God, the faulte is in them selues, not in the precepts: as if I should point with my finger at a starre, which they would gladly see, and their eie-sight were so weake, that although they could see my finger, yet could they not see the starre at which I point. Wherefore as S. Austin concludeth of them, Let them cease to blame me, and let them pray to God, that hee will giuegive them eye-sight: so we do acknowledge that al meanes are vaine, vnlesse the Lord giuegive eies to see: whom therefore the ssPsal. 119.18.Ps 119:18Prophet made his prayer to, Open mine eies, that I may see the wonders of thy law.

Hart.

You may say what you list. But experience sheweth, and it is most certaine, that manye who allow those meanes, which you do, and expound the scripture by them, are themselues deceiued, and deceiue others. For, **Staplet. prin. doctr. lib. 11. cap. 10.the conference of places by which you set more then by all the rest, which you call a great remedy, and the best exposition of scripture that may be had: let this remedy be taken seuerally and by it selfe, it is marueilous p. 95deceitfull, yea pernicious and pestilent; so much the more, by how much (in shew) it is more probable, and still at least corrupteth two places of scripture, if it be vsed peruersly. In deede, we acknowledge gladly with S. Austin, that place receiueth light of place, and those thinges which one-where are spoken somewhat darkely, are other-where more cleerely vttered. But in conference of scriptures it is to be knowne and diligently marked, **Quod obseruare haeretici nolunt, quia catholici & boni ecclesiae …ilii esse nolunt.(which heretikes will not marke, because they will not be catholikes, and good children of the church:) first, that one saying may seeme to be like or vnlike an other, not so much for the likenes and vnlikenes of thinges, as for the preiudice and affection of them by whom they are conferred. Secondly, that the same word, or kind of spéech, hath not eueryevery where the same signification, but sometimes diuerse, sometimes contrarie. Thirdly, that there are many places in the scripture, which being vttered only once, hauehave not any like wherwith you may confer them. Fourthly, and lastly, that all heretikes both of this and of all ages, **Conferendo scripturas diligentissimé, errauerunt tamen in Scripturarum sensu turpissimé.in conferring the scriptures most diligently togither, yet hauehave erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully. Which reasons why the conference of places of scripture is a deceitfull meanes of expounding the scripture, and leadeth often into errour: D. Stapleton, a man well learned out of question, how weake soeuer you account him, hath set downe and proued them with such examples, as might preuaile with you perhaps, if you would weigh them.

Rainoldes.

I hauehave weighed them, and I find them to light. The marchant, whom you praise, is rich, I denie not: but sure he vseth false weights, and abuseth the simple, who take their wares vponupon his credit. Poore men, conceiuing well of them whom they fansie, thinke him to deale vprightly for that he raileth at others, saying that they are deceauers, because they will not be honest dealers, and good children of the weale publike. But let his words go: and hauehave an eie to his weights. If you shoulde tell a yoong beginner in shooting that they who looke at the marke and louse directly towards it do not alwaies hit it: your speech were a truth. But if you should say that all naughtie archers which are, or euer were, hauehave fowlly missed the marke in aiming at it most straightly: he might suspect either your skill, or your will, who traine vp archers so. What may we thinke then of him p. 96who to perswade men that conference of scriptures is a deceitfull way to hit their right sense, doth say that all heretikes both of this and of all ages, in conferring the scriptures most diligently togither yet hauehave erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully? For though they might erre in conferring of them: yet the fault thereof must be, not in conferring them most diligently, but in not conferring them diligently enough. And this is the last of your Doctors reasons. The next before it is no better. He saith, that there are many places in the scripture, which hauehave not any like wherewith you may conferre them. The proofe he bringeth of it, is, that there are sundry speeches in S. Paule, which are in no Prophet, nor Apostle beside him: as (for example sake) to put of the olde man, and put on the newe. Which proofe is like the point whereof it maketh proofe. For, if the same speeches be not in any other, yet there are speeches lyke them, whereby they may be vnderstood. Or, if not in others: yet in S. Paule himselfe, who lightneth so his owne speeches. Or, if not in him: yet conferre them with the drift and circumstances of the text; the course of thinges and wordes will open what is meant by them. And so alleage what place of scripture you list, the darkest that you can: let a man expound it after our rules, and it will neuer leade him into heresie. For either it hath plaine places to expound it, and being expounded according vntounto them, it is farre from heresie: or if it hauehave no such, it hath no danger of heresie, because all things required to beliefe and life are set downe plainely in the Scriptures. The daunger all lyeth in your first and second point: y^e one, touching sayinges, that mens corrupt affections may iudge vnlike or like, when in truth they are not so: the other touching wordes, that may bee mistaken through mens ouersightes, as signifying the same thing, or sundry, which they do not. And by these meanes we grant that the scriptures, may be (and are of many) expounded amisse: to the verifying of that which S. Pet. 3.16.Peter writeth of S. Paules epistles, that in them are some thinges hard to be vnderstood: which they that are vnlearned and vnstable do peruert, as they doo also other scriptures, to their owne destruction. Hereof wee hauehave notable examples in your selues: or (because of yours wee shall speake hereafter) in the Familie of louelove, and that ympe of Satan, their maister, Harry Nicolas. Whom the spirite of errour p. 97hath (through an illusion of ignorance) so bewitched, that, as though he tooke a glorie in his shame, to be him selfe, and his, vnlearned, (such as S. Peter pointeth at,) uuIn the gospell of the kingdome, cap 23.6 & 33.11. and so forth in that, and the rest of his pamphlets.he detesteth the learned and skilfull in the scripture, the scripture-wise, as he termeth thē, and giueth it in charge to his babes to shunne them. Christ was too skilfull in scriptures for the Deuill. Else might xxMat. 4.6.Matt 4:6the Deuil, by the shew of scripture, which he did alleage (or missealleage rather) hauehave perseuered with greater hope in tempting Christ. But shall we suspect and mislike the scripture, because hee missealleaged it? or the conference of scripture, because his ympes vse it peruersely? We hauehave not learned Christ so. Nay, so much the more should we labour and trauaile to search it most diligently, and wisely to conferre it: to wrest by that meanes their sword out of their handes, and kill their owne errour with it. For, the destruction of such spirituall foes, is the sword of the spirite: and yyEphes. 6.17.Eph 6:17the sword of the spirite, is the word of God. So the Familie of louelove, which make a mocke of our faith, our saluatiō by Christ, our resurrection, the iudgement, and euerlasting life; and (to saue their frensies from daunger of the scripture) beate flatte the literall sense, which is the edge of it, and put it vp into a scabberd of their fanaticall dreames and allegories: let zzHebr. 4.12.Heb 4:12the two edged sword be drawne out and sharpned with this conference, and, as the flame of fire deuoureth the stubble, so will the point of truth rippe vp the bowels of their errours. So the Arians, when they brought broken sentences of scripture, in shew resembling somewhat their blasphemous doctrine against the sonne of God, but indeede vnlike it: they were ouerthrowne through the conference of aaTheodor. hist. ecclesiast. l. 1. c. 7.scriptures by the Nicen councell and bbAthanas. con…tra A…ian. Gregor. Nazianz. de Filio. …asil. contra Eunomium. Hilari. & Augustin. de Trinitat. & contra Arian.godly pastors of the church. So the Pelagians, the enimies of grace vnderunder the name of nature, when they trifled vainely to shift the scriptures off, which make against the frée-will of man for Gods fauour: they were put to flight with plainer places of the scriptures, by the Councels of ccIn epist. ad Innocent. epist. 90. inter epist. August.Carthage, of ddEpist. 92 … epistolas Augustin.Mileuis, of eeConcilium A…a…sican. secundum.Orenge, and chiefely by S. ffIn operibus contra. Pelagianos Tom. 7.Austin. So hath God con…ounded others of that rable, & will (no doubt) their complices: if with the sword of the spirite, which is the word of God, wee ioine the ggEphes. 6.16.Eph 6:16shield of faith to quench the fyry dartes of Satan. The Familie of louelove shall feele it in time; the Father of the Familie feared it: and therefore he warned his children to beware of them who beare p. 98this weapon, and hauehave skill to handle it, of scripture-learned men. And you, hhHowle… in his epistle to the Queenes Maiestie.who lay the Families synne to our charge, as though we did foster that venemous vipers brood, do ioine your selues to them, and march into the field with them, and strengthen their handes against vsus. Of you they hauehave learned to take vp the name of ii…crip…ura…ii. Albeit. Pighius ecclesiast. hiera…. l. 1. c. 2.Scripturemen by way of scoffe, and vse it as a contumelie. You teach them, that kkStaplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 10.the diligent, yea the most diligent cōference of scriptures, is the path of heretikes to most damnable errours. You perswade them that llLindan. de optim. gen. inte…pr. Scriptur. Staplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 12.the fountaines of the Greeke and Hebrue text, are neither pure, nor greatly néedfull. You tell them that mmStaplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 9. & 10.to expound the scripture by scripture is good, and it is fruitfull to confer places, to obserue the wordes and circumstances of the text: but there are manye daungers and difficulties in it; the text is not alwaies knitte and coherent to it selfe; the very order of speaking is oftentimes abrupt, sometimes preposterous altogither; there are sundry **These are Giants, the sonnes of Anak, of whom it is written N…m. 13.34.hyperbata and **These are Giants, the sonnes of Anak, of whom it is written N…m. 13.34.anantapodota in S. Paule; one word, yea in one sentence hath sundry significations: places may seeme like one to an other, that are vnlike, and contrariwise: and many mo such inconueniences, enough to breake the hart of a weak Christian. In the which dealing you do band your selues with the ten spies: nnNum. 13.28.Num 13:28who, when they should hauehave encouraged the people of Israell to enter into the land of promise, they tolde them that the land certainly is good, and floweth with milke and hony; but the people dwelling in it, is strong, and the cities walled, exceeding great, and the sonnes of Anak (Giants) be there. The Amalekites dwel in the south coūtrie; the Hitthites, and Iebusites, and Amorites dwell in the mountaines: the Cananites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Iorden. The ooPsal. 95.11.Ps 95:11Lord sware in his wrath, both to these spies, and to the people who beléeued them, that they should not enter into his rest. At you, and your men, I maruaile, (M. Hart) that whose fact you folow, you tremble not at their end. As for vsus, although we were but two against your ten, and all the people would rather beleeue you then vsus: yet we will follow them who were Num. 14.14.Num 14:14of an other spirite, Caleb and Iosua, and with them will wee say to the whole assembly of the children of God; ppNum. 14.7.Num 14:7The land, through the which we hauehave gone to search it, is an excellent good land. If the Lord take delight in vsus, he will p. 99bring vsus into this land, and giuegive it vsus: euen a land that floweth with milke and honie. OnelyOnly rebell yee not against the Lorde, neither feare yee the people of the land: for they are bread for vsus. In deede the holy scripture is bread for our soules: and the word of God is the foode of life. If the Lord take delight in vsus, he will bring vsus vntounto it, and giuegive it vsus. Let vsus not rebell against him, nor feare the hardnes of it. We must qqIoh. 5 39.John 5:39search the scriptures, and rrIam. 1.5.Jas 1:5pray to him for wisedome, and ssMat. 7.7.Matt 7:7hee will open them to vsus, (for he hath promised) and make vsus learned in them.

Hart.

We acknowledge with you **Staple…. prin…. doctrin. lib. 10. cap. 10. & li. 11. cap. 9.that the meanes you mention, namely, to search the scriptures and to pray to God for wisedome and knowledge, are good and godlie meanes whereby we may the sooner come to vnderstand them, or rather be prepared thereto. But such, as neuerthelesse are not still effectuall.

Rainoldes.

They are still effectuall, if men pray, as they should; and search them as they ought: tt1. Ioh. 5.14.1 John 5:14in the spirit of fayth uuRom. 12.3.Rom 12:3and modestie.

Hart.

True, in that measure, which is fit for euerie mans vocation and duetie: some, to exhort and comfort priuately, some publikely to teach the church. But after you hauehave saide all that you can: we shall neuer grow to any ende and issue, if we folow this way. For, if you alleage the scripture against me, and I against you: if I expound it by conference of this place, and you of that: if in your opinion one sentence be plaine, and in mine an other: in mine, our meaning right, and in yours the contrarie: what ende can our controuersies hauehave without a iudge? And if you yéeld to a iudge, who fitter for it then the Pope?

Rainoldes.

Who, but Christ our Sauiour? And they which vnderunder him hauehave it committed to them, euen the Church of Christ?

Hart.

The Church? Nay you mentioned the godlie before, and spake as if they should trie the truth from errour, by conference of the scriptures. Which is your right kinde of triall and iudgement. But you are ashamed of it now belike, as in truth you may be. For you shall finde many taylers and coblers more godly then sundrie more learned then they. Yet I trust you will not repaire for shreddes and cloutes to any shop of theirs.

Rainoldes.

Yet the shreddes and cloutes of taylors and coblers p. 100may hauehave greater knowledge perhaps and better iudgement of the sense of scriptures, then y^e scarlet gownes of learneder men then they. For the learned Pharisees, xxIoh. 7. ver. 49.John 7:49who condemned the people as ignorant of the law, did not iudge the doctrine of Christ to be true: nay yyver. 52.they reiected it as false with search, and see. But zzAct 17. ver. 11.Acts 17:11the men of Beroea (some of whom by likelihood were taylers, or coblers, or at least common artificers as meane as they) aaver. 1….receiued it with all readinesse, & (vponupon the search of the scriptures) beleeued it. Howbeit when I mentioned that iudgement of the godlie, I meant the godlie learned. Wherefore you néeded not to speake of shreddes and cloutes, but that you were loth perhaps to léese this iest. Chiefly, sith I shewed thereupon withall, that, for the triall of controuersies by scripture, y^e toongs (in which the scripture is written) must be knowne, namely, Gréeke and Hebrue. The which shreddes and cloutes, neither many taylers and coblers with vsus, neither many Cardinalles and Popes with you hauehave. Nor yet am I ashamed of that kinde of triall and iudgement by the godly who hauehave not learned toonges, and artes, but Christ onelyonly. And I comprised it in that which I said, that Christ is the iudge, and they which vnderunder him hauehave it committed to them, euen the church of Christ. For himselfe hath giuen by speciall commission two sortes of iudgement to his church, the one priuate, the other publike: priuate, to all the faithfull, and bb…. Cor. 2.15.spirituall, as God calleth them, who are willed cc1. Cor. 10.15.1 Cor 10:15to iudge of that which is taught, and to dd1. Ioh. 4.1.1 John 4:1trie spirits whither they be of God: publike, eeAct. 15.6.Acts 15:6to the assembly of pastors and elders: for ff1. Cor. 14.29.1 Cor 14:29of that which Prophets teach, let Prophets iudge, and gg1. Cor. 14.32.1 Cor 14:32the spirites of Prophetes are subiect to the Prophets. In both of the which, the church must yet remember, that God hath committed nothing but the ministerie of giuing iudgement vntounto her. The soueraintie of iudgement dooth rest on Gods word. For Christ is 11Matt. 23.10.Matt 23:10our onelyonly Doctor & 22Iam. 4.12.Jas 4:12Lawgiuer: according to whose written will the church must iudge. And so,The third Diuision. to returne vntounto the wordes of Christ, from which we digressed: the sense (I gaue of them) will I proue by scripture, according to the rule of faith: the proofe of the sense I submit to the priuate and publike iudgement of the church. The wordes of Christ to Peter, conteined a promise of the keyes, I will giuegive thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen. The occasion of the p. 101wordes, was a question of Christ, asked of the Apostles, answered by Peter: whom say yee that I am? Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God. The sense which I gathered by laying these together, was, that as Peter answered, one, for all: so the keyes were meant to him, one, with all. To proue the former point, that Peter answered, one, for all: the scripture is most plaine, in the sixt of Iohn, where (before this time) Peter had confessed in their common name, hhIoh. 6.6….John 6:6We beleeue, and know, that thou art Christ, the Sonne of the liuing God. To proue the later, that the keyes were meant to him, one, with all: the scripture is as plaine in the twentieth of Iohn, where Christ performing that which he had promised to Peter, doth say to him with the rest, iiIoh. 10. ver. 22. & 2….John 10:22John 10:2As my Father sent me, so doo I send you. Whose sinnes soeuer ye remit, they are remitted to them: & whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine, they are reteined. Wherefore sith the keyes were promised by Christ on the profession of their fayth, which was common to them all: and the promise was performed, when he sent them all with power to binde and loose, to remit and reteine sinnes: it followeth that the keyes belonged no more to Peter, then to all the Apostles. And therefore the promise of the keyes to him, importeth no headship of his ouer them.

Hart.

That which was promised by Christ vntounto Peter, was not performed to the Apostles. For, he gaue not them the keyes of his kingdome: but the power of remitting and reteyning sinnes.

Rainoldes.

These things differ in wordes, but they are one in sense: as Ioseph said to Pharao, kkGen. 41.25.Gen 41:25Both Pharaos dreames are one. For as God, to teach Pharao what he would do in Egipt by seuen yeares of plentie, & seuen yeares of famine, did vse two sundrie dreames, of kine, and eares of corne, the surer to resolue him of his purpose in it: so Christ, to teach vsus what he doth for mankind in ordeining the ministerie of the word & Sacraments, llMat. 16.19.Matt 16:19vseth two similituds, the one, of keyes, the other, of binding & loosing, that we may know the better the fruit & force of it. Touching y^e keyes: he speaketh of heauen, as of a house, wherinto there is no entrance for men, vnlesse the doore be opened. Now we (all Adams ofspring) are shut out of heauen, as Adam our progenitour was out of Paradise, through our offenses and sinnes. For mmReu. 21.27.Rev 21:27no vncleane thing shall enter into it. But nnIoh. 3.16.John 3:16God, of his p. 102louelove and fauour towards vsus, hath giuen vsus his sonne, his onelyonly begotten sonne, that whosoeuer beleeueth in him should not perish, but hauehave eternall life: which is oo1. Pet. 1.4.1 Pet 1:4the inheritaunce reserued in heauen, for vsus. ppRom. 10.14.Rom 10:14We cannot beleeue, vnlesse wée heare his word. We heare not his word, vnlesse it be preached. Wherefore when qqLuc. 4.18. & …. 61.….Luke 4:18Luke 4:61God the Father sent his sonne Christ, and rrMar. 16.15. & Luc. 24.47.Mark 16:15Luke 24:47Christ sent his Apostles as his Father sent him, to preach his word to men, that they who repented and beleeued in Christ should hauehave their sinnes forgiuen them, the faithlesse & vnrepentant should not be forgiuen: then he gaue authoritie as it were to open heauen to the faithfull, and to shut it against the wicked. Which office (to shut, and open) because in mens houses it is exercised by keies: and ss2. King. 18.18.2 Kgs 18:18the stewarde of the house is saide ttEsai. 22.22.Isa 22:22to hauehave the key of it, to open it and to shut it: therefore Christ, the principall steward of Gods house is saide uuReu. 3.7.Rev 3:7to hauehave the key of Dauid: and he gaue his Apostles the keies (as you would say) of the kingdome of heauen, when hee made them his **foreign. 1. Cor. 4.1.1 Cor 4:1stewardes to shut out, to let in. The other similitude of binding and loosing is to like effect. For xxRom. 5.12.Rom 5:12we are all by nature the children of sinne, yyRom. 6.23.Rom 6:23and therefore of death. Now sinnes are in a maner the same to the soule, that zzProu. 5.22.Prov 5:22cordes to the body: and the endlesse paines of death, (that is, the wages of sinne) are like to aa2. Pet. ….4.chaines, wherewith the wicked are bound in hell, as bb1. Pet. 3.19.1 Pet 3:19in a prison. From these cordes of sinne, and chaines of death eternall, men are loosed by Christ, when their sinnes be remitted: their sinnes are remitted, if they beleeue in him. If they beleeue not, their sinnes are reteined: whose sinnes are reteined, they doo continue bound. For, ccIoh. 3.18.John 3:18he that beleeueth not, shall be condemned: he that beléeueth, shall be saued. None shall be condemned but they whose sinnes are reteined, to binde them with the chaines of darkenesse: none saued, but they whose sinnes are remitted, and the cordes vnloosed by which they were holden. UUherefore, sith the Gospell is preached to this ende dd…. Cor. 2.16▪a sauour of life to life vntounto beléeuers; vntounto the vnbeléeuers, a sauour of death to death: as we reade of Christ, that eeEsai. 61.1.Isa 61:1the Lord sent him to preach deliuerance to the captiues, and opening of prison to them that are bound: in like sort his ministers whom he sent to preach it, are said ffMatt. 16.19. & 18.18.Matt 16:19Matt 18:18to binde and loose, ggIoh. 20.23.John 20:23to reteine and remit sinnes. So that both these kinds of spéech import the same that is signified by keyes. For, to binde, and to p. 103reteine sinnes, is to shut: to loose, and to remit sinnes, is to open the kingdome of heauen. Your owne church dooth take the keyes in this meaning: euen hhCatechism. Concil. Triden…. in Sacram. P… niten….the Councell of Trent. For, whereas Christ gaue to his Apostles and their successours the power of binding and loosing, that is, of remitting and reteining sinnes, as your selues expound it: this power you call the power of the keies, as by which an entrance into heuen is opened: because the gates of heauen are as it were vnlocked to them, who hauehave remission and forgiuenes of sinnes, and locked to the rest. Which thinges being so, this summe ariseth of them, that, sith the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are all one with the power of binding and loosing, of remitting and reteining sinnes: Christ therefore, when he promised the keyes, meant that power; and, when he gaue that power, gaue the keyes. But, he gaue that power to all the Apostles. It followeth then, he gaue the keyes to them all.

Hart.

You expounde these places, I cannot tell how. For much of that which you say, is said by vsus also: and yet you agrée not with vsus in the principall. Howsoeuer you cast the parcels of your count: there is a fault in the summe. Wherefore you must pardon me if I allow it not. For, (to vse **Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 6. ca. 1.his wordes, whose opinion, though you mislike him, I farre estéeme aboue yours:) by the name of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen which Christ promised to Peter, he simply meant all power, whereby the kingdome of heauen (in whatsoeuer sense you take it) may bee shutte and opened. As for that which followeth, aaMatt. 16.19.Matt 16:19and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth, shall bee bounde in heauen, and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heauen: 11Non est (vt quiba…dam visum suit) explicatio, aut limitatio ipsatum clauium.this is not (as some hauehave thought) an explication or limitation of the keyes. For so, by those words, should Christ hauehave restrained the power of Peter to the only outward ecclesiasticall court. For 22Omnium Doctorum scholasticorū sentētia.it is the common opinion of all the Schoolemen, that by those words, bbMat. 18.18.Matt 18:18whatsoeuer yee shall binde, and so forth, (which are like to these wordes spoken vntounto Peter, and hauehave the same meaning) an ecclesiasticall iudge in the outward court is made: as by those other words, ccIoh. 20.23.John 20:23whose sinnes ye remit, and so forth, an ecclesiasticall iudge in the inwarde court is made. Wherefore, if ddMat…. 16.1…in this place, that [whatsoeuer thou shalt binde] were an explication or limitation of the keies: p. 104then by the name of keyes were promised to Peter a power iudiciall onelyonly in the …utward court: which is but a part (and that a lesser part) of the power of the keyes. For a great deale more excellent is the power of remitting sinnes, then of excommunicating or suspending a man from his office or honour: and therfore this may be exercised by him that is not a Priest, whereas the other belongeth vntounto Priestes onelyonly. Againe, because our Sauiour 33Illud, et quodc…n queliga…e…, co…unctiué ad …it.addeth with a coniunction, & whatsoeuer thou shalt binde: it must note differently some distinct power, at the least in speciall: euen as the other things, all that go before, vttered coniunctiuely, are things distinct and different: to wit, and I say to thee, and vponupon this peter, and hell gates shall not preuaile, and to thee will I giuegive the keyes, and lastly, and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth, and so forth. Wherefore in these last wordes is promised to Peter, not onelyonly power of binding and loosing in the court, either outward or inward; which both are onelyonly 44Partiales actus ipsarum clauium: that is, part of those things which are done by the keyes.partiall actions of the keyes. But because the keyes themselues were promised him, indefinitly, and were not restrained to any one kinde of opening or shutting: doubtlesse all the power which is conteined in the keyes was promised to him, how great soeuer it be, and of what sort soeuer. Now 55Tota et adaequata potestas …psis clauibus.the whole power, and correspondent fully and euenly to the keyes, is to open and shut: what meanes soeuer it be done by. For, to open and shut is the duetie of keyes: in token whereof the keyes of the citie are brought vntounto the chéefest magistrate, that by his commandement the citie may be shut and opened. To receiue the keyes therefore of the kingdome of heauen, is, to receiue the power of shutting and opening the kingdome of heauen: whither you take the name of the kingdome of heauen for euerlasting life, or for the communion of the militant church. Now this is done by diuers and many other wayes, beside those of binding and loosing in either court. For Pastors doo open and shut the kingdome of heauen, (the one, by exercising that power; the other, by withdrawing it) in their whole spirituall gouernment: in preaching of the word, in ministring of Sacraments, in making of lawes, in expounding of the holy scripture, in declaring articles of faith, in deciding pointes of cōtrouersie and doubt. To be short, the keyes of the church may be diuided, into the keye of knowledge, p. 105and the key of power. To open the scriptures, belongeth to the key of knowledge: which Christ himselfe exercised in the foure and twentieth of Luke, and whereof he saide to the Lawiers, eeLuk. 11.52.Luke 11:52ye hauehave taken away the key of knowledge, and so foorth. The key of power, is either of order, or iurisdiction. And iurisdiction it selfe is either in the outward court, by excommunicating, by suspending from office, by granting of pardons, and making of lawes: or in the inward court, by forgiuing of sinnes. All this 55Amplissima e… adaequata potestas clauium.most ample power, & correspondent wholly and euenly to the keyes, is promised in this place by Christ to Peter onelyonly. Which, as the force and meaning of the worde [keyes,] so the kinde of spéech of holy scripture sheweth. For (in Esay the Prophet) when it had béene sayd 66Summo sacerdoti Eliachim.to the hye Priest Eliakim in the figure of Christ, ffEsai. 22.22.Isa 22:22The key of the house of Dauid will I laye on his shoulder: the scripture declaring the vse of this key dooth by and by adde; and he shall open and none shall shut, he shal shut and none shall open. Which likewise is spoken againe of the person of Christ in y^e Apocalypse: for he is called ggApocal. 3.7.Rev 3:7the holie one and true, which hath the key of Dauid, which openeth and no man shutteth, shutteth and no man openeth. Wherefore, as Eliakim in figure, Christ in truth, receiuing the key of the house of Dauid, that is, of the church, or the kingdome of heauen, receiued withall the power of shutting and opening: in like sort S. Peter being to receiue (in the roome and stéede of Christ) the keyes of the kingdome of heauen, is (out of controuersie) to receiue withall the power of shutting and opening; that is to say, not onelyonly of binding and loosing in iudgement of both the courtes, which are onelyonly 44Partiales non totales, et minores non praecipui actus clau… um.partiall not totall, and lesser not chiefe actions of the keyes, which also were committed to all the Apostles in the eightienth of Mathew, and twentieth of Iohn, 77Quum soli P… tro claues datae fuerint.wheras the keyes were giuen to Peter alone: but also besides, of gouerning, of teaching, of disposing, and dooing all thinges which may any way belong to the generall duetie of a Pastor: which actions are fully and euenly correspondent to the keyes themselues, and therefore in those words were promised 88Soli P…tro principaliter, ante et supra alios omnes.to Peter alone principally, before and ouer all the rest. This is D. Stapletons iudgement of the keyes promised to Peter: wherein the ground of Peters supremacy and headship ouer the Apostles is set downe verie plainly, and verie strongly proued.

p. 106Rainoldes.

This long and smooth tale, which you hauehave tolde out of your Doctor, is like to that nightingale to which iiPlutarch in a … Lacon.a Lacedemonian, when he had plucked her feathers off, and sawe a litle caraine left, said, Thou art a voice, nought else. Plucke off the feathers of your tale: the body is a poore carkase, and hath no substance in it. Howbeit, the names of the two courtes, the outward court, the inward court, with other tunes of like musike: are very sweete melodie in the eares of them, whose hartes are in the court of Rome. As for simple men, who hauehave béene onelye conuersant in **Psal. 34.2.Ps 34:2the courtes of the Lord: they sound to them like straunge languages, and seeme to containe more profound mysteries then we can reach the depth off. But, to open your answere, that it may be séene what is vnsound in it: this is the point of the thing in controuersie. I say that the power promised to Peter by the name of the keyes, in the sixtéenth of Matthew: was performed and giuen to all the Apostles by the commission of Christ, in the twentieth of Iohn. You with Stapleton deny it. Why? Because the keyes promised to Peter do signifie all kind of power; wherof a part onelyonly was giuen to the Apostles, to bind and loose in either court. And how proue you this? Forsooth, bicause by these wordes, whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen, and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen, Christ doth Non est (vt quibusdam visum fuit) explica…io, aut limitatio ipsarum clauium.not expound what he meant by the keies, as some men (say you) hauehave thoughtthat he doth. Then some men hauehave thought that the power of the keyes, and the power of binding and loosing are all one: the later added by Christ to expound the former. In deede I thought so: and I perceaue by you that I thought not so alone: some other men hauehave thought it too. But, you say it is not, as some men hauehave thought. Yet you do not tell vsus the names of these [some men.] Might we knowe (I praye) what these [some men] be?

Hart.

What matter is it, who they be? sith wee are not of their minde.

Rainoldes.

Yes: it is a matter. For if I knew them, it may be I would talke with them.

Hart.

To confirme you in your errour. But learned men do vary in expounding of Scriptures: some hitte the marke, some misse it. And D. Stapleton, reading many of all …ortes, might fall on some expounding it amisse (as you do,) whom hée p. 107for modestie would not name, where hee reprooueth their opinion.

Rainoldes.

This modestie I like not. The truth is, hee durst not name them, least wee should know them, and bee the more strengthned by them in the truth to the confounding of your errour. For, these [some men] whom hee so lightly trippeth ouer, are, but al the Fathers: who hauehave with one consent expounded Christes promise of the keyes, as we do. Now, the exposition which the Fathers make, is (by his owne iudgement) the churches exposition, which hath the right sense of the scripture. And so while he is launching out into the deepe, to fetch in a prise for Peter of Romes supremacie: hee maketh shipwracke in the hauen.

Hart.

How know you, that the Fathers all hauehave so expounded it? You hauehave not read them all: hauehave you?

Rainoldes.

No truely. Neither euer am likely to doo it. But I hauehave read him, that hath read them all, I trow. And hee being a man worthy (with you) of credit, doth witnesse, that I saye true.

Hart.

Who is that?

Rainoldes.

Euen Father Robert: the publike reader and professor of diuinitie in Rome. Who, kkRobert. Be… larmin. in praelect. Rom. Controu. 4. Quaest. 3. De Summo … ont.when he discoursed of Christes wordes to Peter, Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heauen, and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heauen: said, that all power of the keyes is therein promised, not restrained to part, but enlarged to what soeuer. Yea, that Christ likewise promised the same power to all the Apostles, when **Mat. 18.18.Matt 18:18he spake in like wordes, Whatsoeuer ye bind on earth, shall be bound in heauen, & what soeuer ye loose on earth, shall be loosed in heauen. For, albeit Origen (more subtilly, then literally) doth put a difference betweene the promises, because, in the one, the word, foreign. Matth. 18.18.Matt 18:18[heauen] is vsed; in the other, 22foreign. Matth. 16.19.Matt 16:19[heauens:] yet the common exposition of S. Ierom, S. Hilarie, S. Anselme, and others vponupon this place, yea of S. Austin him selfe in his treatise vponupon Iohn, is, that Christ speaketh of the power of the keyes by which the Apostles and their successours do bynd or loose sinners. And although it seemeth, that here is chiefely meant the power of iurisdiction whereby sinners are excommunicate: yet the said Fathers doo vnderstand it of p. 108both the powers, not onelyonly of iurisdiction but of order too. And that may be gathered (it seemeth) by the text. For it is said as generally to the Apostles, What things soeuer ye shal bind: as it is to Peter, What thing soeuer thou shalt bind.

Hart.

Perhaps Father Robert doth bring in these thinges by way of an obiection, and frameth thereunto an answere, and so resolueth to the contrarie.

Rainoldes.

No. But he bringeth your opinion in deede by way of an obiection, and frameth thereunto an answere, and so resolueth to the contrary. For thus he goeth forward. What? Is that giuen then to all the Apostles, which was promised to Peter? Caietan (in his treatise of the Popes authority) saith that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen, and the power of byndyng and loosing, are not all one: for that to bynd and loose is lesse then to open and shut. But this doctrine seemeth to be more subtill then true. For it is a thing vnheard of, that there are in the Church any other keyes then the keyes of order and of iurisdiction. And the sense of those wordes, I will giuegive thee the keyes, and whatsoeuer thou shalt bind and loose, is plaine: that first, a certaine power and authoritie is promised; afterward, the function of it is declared. Now the function of these keyes is declared by the wordes to bind and loose, not by the wordes, to shut and open: that we may vnderstand they be metaphoricall and borowed kindes of speeches; neither heauen is opened properly, but it is said that heauen is opened then with these keyes when men are loosed and dispatched of the difficulties and infirmities which shut them out of heauen, and so forth. Thus saith your chiefest reader, and Iesuit Robert Bellarmin: whose iudgement (by your leaue) I farre esteeme, in this point, aboue D. Stapletons, as more agreeable to the scriptures.

Hart.

You may estéeme it, as you li…t. But I am not bound to stand to Bellarmines iudgement.

Rainoldes.

But you are bound to stand to the iudgement of the Fathers, by the Councell of Trent: and that llAllens Apolog. of the English seminar. chap. 5. Cone. Trid. Sess. 4. The Bul of the othe (annexed to the Councell of Trent:) Sacram Scripturam nunquam nisi iuxta vnanimem consensum Patrum accipiam & interpretabor.vponupon your othe, as I take it. With the which othe I know not how D. Stapleton dispenseth. Unlesse the Pope expound it, that you must folow them, so farre as they do go with him: or else **Pope Pius the fourth. Bulla Sanctissimi Domini nostri Domini Pii diuina prouidentia Papae quarti, Super forma iuramenti professionis fidei.the oth-maker, meant not to bind you to it. Let vsus giuegive a passeport then vntounto the Fathers. It may be that the man was moued (in conscience) p. 109by light of truth to vary from them. Let vsus heare what moued him. The same is not meant (saith he) by the keyes, and by the wordes, to bynd and loose, as some men hauehave thought. And why? For all the Schoolemen are of opinion, that to bynd and loose doth note a power iudiciall in the outward court onelyonly: to remit and retayne sinnes, in the inward court. By the outward court, he meaneth the consistorie: wherein the church-discipline and censure is exercised. By the inward court, the conscience: wherein a mans trespasses and sinnes are bound or loosed. So (in effect) he saith, that the power of remitting sinnes and censuring sinners, were onelyonly meant (in the spéeches of Christ) to the Apostles: and not the most ample and large power of keyes (promised to Peter) 22Omnium Doctorum scholasticorum sententia.by the iudgement of all the Schoolemen. Which proofe, though it cannot weigh as much for him, as the Fathers against him: yet herein his dealing is orderly and plaine, that, leauing the Fathers, he cleaueth to the Schoolemen. For (when all is done) the Schoolemen are the men that must vphold Papistrie: with the fréendly helpe of the Canonists their bréethren. The Scriptures and Fathers would be pretended for a shew, to countenance the matter. But they are like to images in olde buildings of antike worke: which are framed so, that with their shoulders they séeme to beare the roofe, whereas that in déed doth rest on walles or pillars. The Schoolemen and the Canonists, the fountaines of the corruption which hath infected the Church of Christ; the Schoolemen, in doctrine, by the opinions of Popery; the Canonistes, in discipline, by the state of the Papacie: the Schoolemen and the Canonists are the two pillars that vphold your Church, as mmIudg. 16.29.Judg 16:29the house of Dagon, in the which the Philistines triumph and insult ouer the faith and God of Samson. What then, if the Schoolemen, whose nn1. Tim. 6.2….1 Tim 6:2oppositions of science falsely so called, are noted by S. Paule, that Timothee may auoid them, who (the most ofthem) came with féete vnwashed into the Lordes sanctuarie, who being ignorant of the tongues wherein the holy Ghost wrote, (great helpes to vnderstand his meaning,) searched not the sense of scripture in the scripture, but in humaine sense, and so expounded it thereafter: what, if they say, that to bynd and loose doth make a iudge onelyonly in the outward court: to remit and retayne sinnes, in the inward court: and both import lesse then the keyes, which open all in court and country? p. 110I hauehave prooued the contrary by conference of the Scriptures. You can not deny but that the Fathers teach the contrary. Where is your discretion? Who, though the Scriptures (as we proue,) the Fathers (as you graunt,) do say it is so: yet you say it is not so, because the Schoolemen thinke not so. As if you should say in a matter of state, which is allowed and ordained by the Quéene and Councell, that although they will it, yet may it not be doone: why? because the Yeomen ofthe kitchin like it not.

Hart.

If you beleeued so rightly as you ought, with Catholikes: you would not thinke so basely of Schoolemen, as you do. For, (as ooLocor. Theologicor. …ib. 8. cap. 1.Melchior Canus writeth well and truely) the contempt of Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of heresie: & the heresies of Luther, of Wicklef, of Melanchthon, and (in a word) of all the Lutherans, do seeme to hauehave flowed most from that fountaine, euen from the despising of the Schoolemens iudgement. But, howsoeuer you estéeme them, ppcap. 4.their common opinion, when they all consent and agree in one, is of such weight with vsus: that we account it a point of great rashnes, and almost of heresie to dissent from them. They hauehave not such ornaments offiner learning and the tongues, as some in our daies hauehave: but they hauehave the substance, qqThe narration of the English Seminarie in Rome.the pith of all sciences: chiefely S. Thomas of Aquine, one of the grauest and learnedst diuines, that euer Christes church had, whatsoeuer ignorant heretikes (which vnderstand him not) esteeme of him.

Rainoldes.

My iudgement of the Schoolemen, is such as they deserue. If Canus hauehave iudged more fauourably ofthem, hée is to be borne with: sith rrLocor. Theolog. lib. 8. cap. 1.him selfe desired to be thought a Schoolman. Though, if I should graunt them as much as he doth, that, when they all agree in one they must be folowed: they would not trouble vsus greatly in many pointes of faith. For they are at such contention (for themost part) and that, about such matters: that S. ss1. Tim. 6.4.1 Tim 6:4Paules reproofe of questions and strife of words neuer fel on any more iustly then on them. But as Canus speaketh of Schoole-diuines, and Schoole-diuinitie: he and I dissent not, though I bée against them, and he for them, in shew. Sophocles, the poet, (a writer of tragedies) being asked ofhis frend, why, whē he brought in the persons ofwomen, he made them alwaies good, whereas Euripides made them badde: because I (quoth he) doo p. 111represent women such as they should be: Euripides, such as they be. So the matter fareth betweene me and Canus. For he dooth paint out Schoolemen such as they should be: and I such as they be. I speake against them who peruerting the scriptures, hauehave prophaned diuinitie with philosophie, or rather sophistrie, and yet are called Schoole-diuines, whē they are neither Schollers in truth, nor Diuines. He accoūteth none a Schoole-diuine, but him, ttLocor. Theolog. lib. 8. cap. 1.who reasoneth of God and thinges concernyng God, fitly, wisely, learnedly out of the holie scriptures & ordinances of God. Now, if none be a Schoole-diuine, but such; nor any diuinitie, Schoole-diuinitie but that, **Quae sacrarum literarum fundamentis constituta sit.which is set on the foundations of the holie scriptures, as Canus doth define it: then shall I gladly both yéeld to Schoole-diuinitie, & follow Schoolediuines: but I deny them to be Schoole-diuines, whom you meant in citing Schoolemen. Yea euē Thomas of Aquine, whō your Popes set more by, then by al the Doctors, placing him as 11Pope Viban. In confirmat. & approbat. doctrinae S. Thomae.chiefest, and 22Pope Innocēt. In serm. ecce plus quam Solomon hic. Augustin. Hunae. praefat. Summ. Theolog. Thom. Aquin.first after the scripture, and worthily, for he was the first thorough-papist of name that euer wrote, and with his rare gifts of wit, learning, and industrie did set out Popery most, that he might well be 33Pope Pius the fift. In bulla super celebratione festiuitatis Angelici Doctoris S. Thomae Aquin. Eclog. Bullar. & Motu-proprior.praysed as the standerd-bearer of the fayth mainteined by the Councell of Trent: euen him will I folow, so lōg as he sheweth himself such a Schoolman, as Canus prayseth to vsus. But he sheweth not himself such a Schoole-man, whē he doth (as he doth oft; so much we vnderstand in him) kepe down the truth & set vp errour: either by mistaking the scripture against scripture; or by holding the corruptions of faithfull men, as incorrupt; or by following the glimses of Philosophers as perfit light. By mistaking the scripture: through faultie translations or expositions of men. By the corruptions of the faithfull: in the practise of the church, or some opinions of Fathers. By the glimses of Philosophers: in taking groundes of Aristotle as principles of truth, equall to the word of God. I set not downe examples of all Popish errours, growne by these occasions, confirmed by Thomas and the Schoolemen. Because in our conference, they shall (if God will) hauehave each their due places. Now for the present, I grant, that the contempt of the Schoolemēs doctrine, (on these considerations) hath moued vsus to departe from your Catholike errours: and a Lutheran mislike, not of Schoole-diuinitie, but of this Schoole-diuinitie, is a companion p. 112of our heresie: and in our Uniuersities, Oxford and Cambridge, we studie scriptures more then it; so that (in some part) you raile vponupon vsus iustly, 11The narrat. of the English se…n. in Rome.that heresie in England hath abandoned the studie of it. For we had not beléeued uuAct. 24.5. & 28.22.Acts 24:5Acts 28:22the heresie of Christ and that new fangled man, his Apostle, S. Paule: vnlesse we had contemned the Catholike fansies of the Schoolemē, who (as xxAct. 19.24.Acts 19:24Demetrius) striue against it. But you shall neuer driue me with bugges of 22Whence the names of Lutherans, Wiclefists, Melanchthonists are taken vp against vsus, by Hofius, Staphylus, Sanders: as likewise of Caluinists, and Anglo-caluinists by D Stapletō.the names of Luther, or Wicklef, or Melanchthon, or any else, from holding that with them which they holde of God. For though we reioyse not in names drawne from them, with the which you presse vsus, but in the name of yyAct 11.26.Acts 11:26Christians, zz1. C…or. 1.13.into the which we are baptized: yet I know no harme by them, nor you, I thinke (set slaunders apart) why we should be ashamed of them, more then our fathers were of Caecilian, aaAugust. breuic. collat. cum Donatist. collat. diei 3. cap. 4.of whom the Donatists called them Caecilianists. But had they béene as euill as their enemies report them, their liues stained with lewdnes, their doctrine mixt with leauen, no lesse then were the Pharisees: S. bbAct. 23.6.Acts 23:6Paule hath taught me to acknowledge my selfe euen a Pharisee (if néede be, not onelyonly a Lutheran) in that the Pharises teach a truth of Christian faith, the resurrection of the dead. Wherefore, if the Schoolemen (to returne to my purpose) if all the Schoolemen had distinguished the keyes from the function of binding and loosing, that function from the remitting and retaining of sinnes, as you say they doo: yet might not their credit ouerweigh the reasons which I hauehave laide against it. But what if all the Schoolemen hauehave not done so? As in déede they hauehave not. What if they hauehave done the contrarie rather? What shall we say of him who hath taught his toong so shamefully to lye, as though he neither feared God nor reuerenced men? First, ccSententiar. li. 4. Distinct. 18. & 1….Peter Lombard, the father of the Schoolemen, doth define the keyes by the knowledge and the power of binding & loosing: and so he diuideth and handleth them accordingly. The next after him, ddSumm. Theolo. part 4. quaest. 20. memb. 2. & 5.Alexander of Ales, treadeth the same steps: and saith, that to binde and loose is as much as to open and shut: which is the whole power of the keyes. Thomas of Aquine after him, misliking eeIn magistr. sent. lib. 4. distinct. 18· quaest. 1. art. 1.Peter Lombard for requiring knowledge (which some, who claime the keyes, hauehave not,) agreeth with him in the rest, and maketh the power of binding and loosing, to be the substance of the keyes. Iohn Scot after him, ffScript. Oxon. in Magist. sent. lib. 4. dist. 19. art. 5.although he distinguisheth between p. 113the two courtes, secret, and open, as you doo: ggArt. 3.yet he dreameth not of any other keyes then of binding and loosing. Yea, (that which cuts the throte of your supreme head) hhIn magist sent. lib 4. dist. 19. art. 1.Scot, iiIn 4. Sent. dist. 24. quaest. 3. art. 2.Thomas, and kkSumm. Theologic. part. 4. quaest. 20. Membr. 5. & 6.Alexander, affirme the same, that I: namely, that the keyes promised to Peter in the sixteenth of Mathew, were giuen to the Apostles in the twentieth of Iohn. And these are accounted the chéefest of your Schoolemen, and so estéemed amongst you, that the 11Lombard….first of them is called y^e Master of the sentences; 22Alexander.the next, the Doctor irrefragable; 33Thomas.the third, the Doctor Angelicall; 44Scotus.the fourth and last, the Subtile Doctor. What the rest of the blacke garde iudge of the matter, I hauehave not enquired. But it is likely they weare their Masters liueries: chiefly, sith Scot & Thomas doo not square about it. Which I thinke the rather, because D. Stapleton, though boasting that all the Schoolemen are of his side, yet nameth not one: whereas he vseth not to spare his margent for quotations, when they (whom he alleageth) doo speake or séeme to speake for him. Belike the Quéene must léese her right, where there is nothing to be had.

Hart.

You néede not finde fault that he quoteth not the names of the Schoolemen to proue his exposition: when he proueth it by that which you like better, euen by conference of scripture.

Rainoldes.

By conference of other plainer places of scripture?

Hart.

No. But by a word of the same text, 33Illud, Et quod. cunque ligaueris, coniunctiue addit.euen [and] the coniunction: which, séeing that it coupleth things distinct and different, in the former members, and I say to thee, and vponupon this peter, and the gates of hell, and to thee will I giuegive the keyes; therfore to binde and loose must differ from the keyes, because the last clause is knit with [and] vntounto the rest, and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde.

Rainoldes.

And did not he (thinke you) go about to shewe and proue by this example, that conference of scripture is but a bad meanes to come vntounto the right sense of the scripture? Doubtlesse such a conference, as this (at which he fumbleth) is not the wisest way to finde it. But, I know not how, when he medleth with scripture, he séemeth halfe amazed, as it were a creature in a straunge element. For neither he remembreth llStaple… … doctr. li. …his owne exception against vsus, that in the same sentence one worde hath sundrie senses often: nor marketh that a coniunction is vsed as p. 114properly to couple togither agréeing things as different, mmIer. … 17. …Jer 17and both (as here) in one place: nor considereth that things may differ, each from other, and yet be expounded each of them by other, as the cause by the effects, the whole by the parts: nor weigheth (the point in question) that although in Matthew the wordes of Christ to Peter did differ in meaning as much as hee would hauehave them, yet Christ by his generall commission in Iohn might performe ioyntly to all the Apostles that which hée promised to him. And this (to put the matter out of all cōtrouersie, because it is the issue betwéene you and vsus) the verie wordes of the commission, deliuered in the scriptures, expounded by the Fathers, obserued by the Schoolemen, doo conuince so forcibly: that nnRob. Bellarmin. prae lect. Romae, Contro…r. 4. qu…st. …. De summo Po…ti.the Iesuit (whom I named) the Popes owne professor, & most earnest proctour of the Popes supremacy, was faine to séeke other shiftes whereby to helpe it, but this he could not choose but graunt. For hauing taught that the keyes promised to Peter were only two, of order, and of iurisdiction: he declared that Christ did giuegive them both to his Apostles: the key of iurisdiction ouer all the world, in that he said to them, As my Father sent me, so doo I sende you, which Cyrill and Chrysostom note vponupon it; the key of order in the wordes that immediatly follow, Receiue the holy Ghost, whose sinnes soeuer ye remit, they are remitted to them, whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine, they are reteined. Or, if D. Stapleton louelove himselfe so well, that neither Scriptures, nor Fathers, nor Schoolemen, nor Iesuites, can make him to acknowledge his owne ouersight: let him heare a witnesse who can doo more with him, against whō there lyeth no exception for him, vnlesse it be that of the lawe, ooL. in testimon. Dig. De testibus.They who wauer against the credit of their owne testimonie, are not to be heard. This witnesse, is himselfe: who, remembring not the prouerbe that a lyer must be mindfull, ppStaplet. princip. doctrin. li. 6. … 7.doth afterward affirme, that all the Apostles were sent with full power to begin the church, by those wordes of Christ, As my Father sent me, so doo I send you: and that they all were therein equall vntounto Peter.

Hart.

So: he saith that ful power was giuen them by those wordes, As my Father sent me: but, that the words which folow conteine a part therof only, Whose sins soeuer ye remit: as again he mentioneth in that verie place. Now, these two sayings agrée well togither: that it is giuen, by the one; & by the other it is not. p. 115Wherefore your selfe offend in that you touch him, when you doo touch him as a lyer. A common fault with Protestants, in dealing against vsus: which argueth your church of what brood it is. qqIoh. 8.44.John 8:44The Deuil is a lyer: and the father thereof.

Rainoldes.

If any man of our profession bee stained with this filth: we wish him and exhort him to clense him selfe of it, least the name of God, be (through his default) blasphemed among the Gentiles. But you do vsus iniury to condemne our church for the offense of some in it. For, rrRom. ….6.all they are not Israel, which are of Israel: and Iacobs sonnes, ssGen. 35.…Gen 35Ruben, did commit incest, ttGen. 34.23.Gen 34:23Simeon and Leui, murder; yet the house of Iacob was the church of God. If my selfe hauehave done your Doctor any wrong, in touching him, as a lyer: it was an errour, not a crime; not of wilfulnes, but ouersight. And such an ouersight, for which he rather oweth thankes to me, who touch him: then to you, who cléere him. For I, who do touch him, touch him with a rodde: but you, who do cléere him, whippe him with scorpions.

Hart.

What meane you by that?

Rainoldes.

You charge him with a capitall crime (as I may terme it,) to cléere him of a lesser. He foloweth not the Deuill in lying, you say. But you graunt, he foloweth him in that is worse: euen in the suppressing of the holy scripture to seduce the reader. For, as the Deui… ▪ …empting Christ to cast him selfe downe from the pinnacle, alleaged, uuNat. 4.6.it is written, He will giuegive his Angels charge ouer thee; omitted, xxPsal …1.11.Ps 1:11that they shall keepe thee in all thy waies, because that made against him, the waies, (to which he tempted) being none of Christes waies: in like sort the Doctor tempting vsus to fall downe before the Pope, when hee alleaged yyIoh. 20.2….John 20:2whose sinnes soeuer ye remit, as giuing lesse to the Apostles then was promised to Peter; he omitted, zzIoh. …0.…1.As my father sent me, so I send you, whereby they all hauehave full power, the same that Peter had. Neither yet contenting him selfe with this trechery: he procéedeth farther. And whereas aa2. …. 18.1…the scripture saith of Eliakim, that he was the steward of the kinges house ▪ the Doctor affirmeth he was 66…the hie priest: that seing the key of Dauids house was giuen him, and his key therein was a figure of Christes, and Christ did promise keyes to Peter: the simple reader might conceaue (by this allusion) that, as Eliakim was the hie priest in the olde Testament, so Peter should bee in the p. 116newe: the one as a figure, the other, as lieutenant of Christ, the true hie priest.

Hart.

What moued D. Stapleton to say that Eliakim was hie priest, I know not. I do not thinke he would hauehave said it, vnlesse he had had good reason to auouch it. And I am perswaded, that if he knew that, and other thinges, which you finde fault with: what soeuer hee hath written, hée woulde make it good.

Rainoldes.

I wish with all my hart, he would. For then he should repent, and amend his errors: the onelyonly way to make that good, which is euill. But thus you may sée (by his own confession) that Christ gaue the keyes to all the Apostles which he promised to Peter. For seing by the keyes is signified the full power, and the full power was giuen to them all: it foloweth that the keies were giuen to them all. How much the more idle is that fansi-full tale which you told out of him, that to bynd and loose, to remitte & retayne sinnes, imply a part onelyonly, or (as he termeth it) are onelyonly 44Partiales non totales, & minores non praecipui actus ipsarum clauium.partiall not totall, and lesser not the chiefe actions of the keyes: but to open and shut, wherein is implyed the power correspondent fully and euenly to the keyes, is the whole power, euen a power most ample: 55Tota & adoe quata potestas ipsis clauibus: amplissima potestas.and so the partiall lesser actions of the keyes were committed by Christ to all the Apostles, 77Qu…m soli Petro claues datoe fuerint.wheras the keyes were giuen to Peter alone. Whereof the conclusion is so cléerely false, that himselfe (as though he had swalowed a hot morsell which he must néedes vngorge) was faine to cast it vp straightwaie, and say the contrary. For, in that he addeth, that the full power of the keyes was promised 88Soli Petro principaliter ante & supra …mnes alios.to Peter alone principally, before and aboue al the rest: he graunteth (by cōsequent) that it was promised to the rest of the Apostles, and therefore giuen to them also.

Hart.

Yet principally to him alone. But though all of them had receiued the keyes, euen the full power, the same that he receiued, which neuerthelesse I graunt not, but suppose they had: yet this doth confirme that he was their supreme head, in some respect.

Rainoldes.

How so? Because no greater power was giuen him, then was giuen them.

Hart.

No: But because **Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 7. & 15.the power which was giuen them, was giuen them by him. For, ccSermon. 3. in anniuers. die assumpt. suae. & Serm. 2. in Natali Apostolor. Petri & Pauli.so (as Leo the great writeth p. 117wisely) 11Firmitas. quae per Christum Pet…o tribu…ur, per Petrum Apostolis conse…tur.the strength which is giuen to Peter by Christ is bestowed on the Apostles by Peter.

Rainoldes

This Leo was too great a fréend of Peters state, as bbChap. 1. Diuis. 2.I hauehave declared. Wherefore how great soeuer he were, and wrote wisely: yet must his writing giuegive place to the word of a greater Leo: I meane of **Reu. 5.5.Rev 5:5the Lion of the tribe of Iuda. For hée teacheth vsus, not, that the Apostles, receued their power by Peter, but ddIohn 20.21▪ Mat. 28.18.John 20:21Matt 28:18that Peter and they receiued it all togither immediately of Christ. Yea Paule, eeAct. 9.15.Acts 9:15though he were chosen after Christes ascension to be an Apostle: yet was he ffGal. 1.1.Gal 1:1an Apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Iesus Christ, and God the father which raised him from the dead.

Hart.

That is true which you say: but you mistake my meaning. For you séeme to speake of the Apostolike power, which I graunt they receiued immediately of Christ. But Staple…. … doct. l. 6. c. 7.they had an other power beside that, to wit, a Bishoply, or Pastorall power. Wherein sith they were inferior to Peter, though equall in the Apostolike: it may be they receiued, though not the Apostolike, yet the Bishoply power of him.

Rainoldes.

Some such thing it is, that your men would say. But (to confesse mine owne ignorance) I do not vnderstand what they meane by it. Which I should perhaps be ashamed off, if you (who handle it) your selues did vnderstand it, or gaue vsus sense and reason of it. For, if all the power, which Bishops hauehave, as Bishops, be the power of the keyes; and the Apostles, as Apostles, had all the power of the keyes committed vntounto them by Christ; both the which things the Scriptures proue, & you disproue not: then was there no power, which they might receiue of Peter, as Bishops; and therefore they did not receiue any of him, nor were inferiour to him therein▪ Yet this is the very foundation of the Papacie: but laid on such sand, that the maister builders who trauaile most in laying it, do reele (like dronken men) about it, too and fro; and strooken with a blindnes, as ggGen. 19.11.Gen 19:11the Sodomites at Lots doo…e, they are wearied in seeking of it. Cardinall hhIn Summa de ecclesia lib. 2.Turrecremata, the chiefest autour of the fansie, is of this opinion, that iicap. 34.Christ brought the rest of his Apostles to bishoply dignity by Peter: euen as he lead his people through the wildernes, by the hand of Moses & Aaron. kkcap. 3… ▪For him selfe made Peter onelyonly, a Bishop, immediately; and Peter preferred the rest, p. 118first Iohn, next Iames, then others: as the Cardinall gesseth by probabilities of dreames, some in theCanon law, some of his own braine. llPro epist. decreralibus Pon…ificū lib. 2. cap. …1.Turrian the Iesuit, (a man, with whom such dreames commonly are oracles) though he allow Peter to be the father of the Apostles, yet thinking this maner of fathering him to be absurd, he saith that the Apostles were all ordeined Bishops, aacap. 2.by the laying (as it were) of the fyry tongues vponupon them, whē they receiued the holy Ghost. And this he proueth by S. Ierom, S. Denys, and other Fathers. Of whose opinion it ensueth, that, graunting the Apostles were ordeined Bishops, as in a generall sense, (in which their charge is called foreign. Act. 1.20.Acts 1:20a bishoply charge) they were: yet they were ordained of God immediately, as well as Peter was, and not of God by Peter. D. Stapleton, vncertaine how to beare him selfe betwéene these two opinions, the later being truer, the former safer for the Pope: he faltereth in his spéech, as though (according to the prouerbe) hee had a woolfe by the eares, whom neither he durst let go out of his hands, nor holde, for feare of danger. For of the one side he is loth to graunt the truth, lest it should preiudice the title of the Pope: yet loth of the other side to deny it also, because **Mat. 21.26.Matt 21:26he feareth the people. mmStaplet. princ. doct. l. 6 c. 1.First therfore he saith, that the keyes (which signifie the ful power of gouernment ecclesiasticall) were giuen to Peter onelyonly. Then, he confesseth, nncap. 7.that all the Apostles were sent by Christ, with full power, yea with power most full, and equall vntounto Peters power. From hence he turneth backe, and taketh vp his olde song, oocap. 8.that Christ gaue all power ecclesiasticall to Peter onelyonly, and so by him to others. Which string because it giueth a very swéete sound: ppcap. 6. & 7. & 8. & 10. & 15.he harpeth on it often. Afterward, either doubting the conscience of weake Catholikes, or the euill tonges of Caluinists, who fauour the Apostles, and cannot heare them so debased: he saith qqcap. 15.that the Apostles were sent immediately of God with full power vntounto al nations. Yet by and by falling againe vntounto his giddines, (through some pang belike of The Pope.his holinesse displeasure, which might be stirred by such spéeches:) he pronounceth, rrcap. 15.that the spring of honour and power is deriued from Peter alone to all the rest. And thus he goeth on, through the whole discourse, (both in this, and the rest of his Doctrinall Principles,) enterfeiring as it were at eueryevery other pace, and hewing hoofe against hoofe. But so will p. 119the Lord confound the toongs of them who doo build vp Babylon. Yet here, for these cuttings wherwith he gasheth himself, he thinketh that they may be healed with a distinction taken vp in Cardinall Turrecrematas shop, of a twofold power, the one Apostolike, the other Bishoply: the rest of the Apostles to hauehave béene inferior to Peter in the Bishoply, though equall in the Apostolike; and all to hauehave receiued the Apostolike power immediatly of Christ, the rest (as namely Iames) their Bishoply power of Peter. But two learned Friers, Sixtus Senensis, and Franciscus Victoria (men of better reading and iudgement then either he, or Turrecremata) hauehave cast off this quirke as a rotten drugge, before Stapleton tooke it vp. ssRelection. …. de potestat. ecclesiae.Victoria, by shewing out of the Scriptures, that the Apostles receiued all their power immediatly of Christ. ttBibliothec. san. lib. 6. annot. 269. & 171.Sixtus, by declaring out of the Fathers, that in the power of Apostleship and order (so he calleth those two powers) Paul was equall to Peter, and the rest to them both. Which case he thought to be so cléere, that despairing of helpe for the Papacie, by Peters eyther Bishoply power, or Apostolike: he added thereunto a third kind of power, euen the power of kingdome, therein to set Peter ouer the Apostles, that so the Pope too might raigne ouer Bishops. It must be knowne, saith he, that Peter had a threefold power, one of the 11Apostolatus.Apostleship, an other of 22Ordinis.order, and the third of 33Regni.kingdome. Touching the Apostleship, that is, the duetie of teaching, and care of preaching the Gospell: Paul (as it is rightly noted by 11In comment. ad Galat.Ierom) was not inferiour to Peter, because Paule was chosen to the preaching of the Gospell, not by Peter but by God, euen as Peter was. Touching the power which is giuen in the Sacrament of order: 22Aduersus Iouinian. & ad Euagr.Ierom hath said wel, that al the Apostles receiued the keyes equally; yea that they all, as Bishops, were equall in degree of priesthood & the spirituall power of that degree. But touching the power of kingdome, & that principall authoritie ouer all Bishops and teachers: thereof hath 33Aduers. Iouinian. & Luciferian.Ierom said best, that Peter was chosen amongst the twelue Apostles, and made the head of al, that by his supreme authoritie & eminent power aboue the rest, the contentions of the church might be taken vp, and all occasion of schismes remoued. Now, if you will vse this aide of kingly power to fortifie the Pope with: we will trie the strength thereof, uuChapt. 5. Diuis. ….when you bring it. In the meane season, for the Bishoply power which Peter is imagined to hauehave p. 120bestowed on the Apostles, (as the Pope would on Bishops:) it was but a Cardinals fetch to serue y^e turne of his Lord the Pope: the learnedst of your Iesuites and Friers dare not take it: your Doctor faine would hauehave it, but toucheth it so nicely, as though he were afraide of it. If you will stand vntounto it, and holde it with the Cardinall: let vsus sée your warrant; where did the Apostles receiue it of Peter? At what time? In what maner? Who is a witnesse of it?

Hart.

They did not receiue it. But the order was that they should hauehave done.

Rainoldes.

Was that the order? Why did they breake it?

Hart.

Christ xxSingulari priuilegio. Staplet. l. 6. c. 7.by singular priuiledge did exempt them from it.

Rainoldes.

Then there was a law which did bind them to it.

Hart.

What else? For they should hauehave done it: though they did it not.

Rainoldes.

Should, that they did not? How doo you proue it?

Hart.

Because an order must be set, which should be kept by the posteritie.

Rainoldes.

An order? For whom? For Apostles? you yyImmediaté a Deo missi. Staplet. l▪ 6. c. 13.graunt that man might not ordaine them. For Bishops? zzTit. 1.5.7.Titus 1:5Titus 1:7other men did ordaine them, as rightfully as Peter did. But you had rather make this shew of an answere, then say (that which you should say in truth) I cannot tell. For you deale with vsus, as **Cicer. pro Sex. Roscio▪Erucius did with Roscius ▪ whom when hee accused, that he had killed his father, because his father purposed to disinherit him: Thou must proue, (saith Tully) that his father did purpose it. The father did purpose to disinherite his sonne. For what cause? I know not. Did he disinherite him? No. Who did hinder it? He did mind it. Did he mind it? Whom told he so? No bodie. Your answeres vntounto me, are very like to these, but somewhat more vnorderly. For to ground the Popes supremacie on Peter: you said that the Apostles did all receiue their power, at least, their bishoply power of him. You must make it manifest that they did so. All the Apostles were to receiue their power of Peter. What scripture saith so? I know not. Did they receiue it? No. Who did hinder it? They should hauehave done it. p. 121Should they hauehave done it? How proue ye it? I can not tell. I may not say of you, as Tully of Erucius, What is it else to abuse the lawes and iudgements and maiestie of the iudges to lucre and to lust, then so to accuse, and to obiect that, which you not onelyonly can not proue, but do not as much as endeuour to proue it. For I must beare you witnes, you endeuour to proue it. But you shall do better to surcease that endeuour, vnlesse your proofes be sounder, and hauehave not onelyonly shew, but also weight of trueth in them.

The third Chapter. The performance, which Christ is supposed to hauehave made (of the supremacie promised,) 1 in saying to Peter, Feede my lambes, feede my sheepe: 2 and, Strengthen thy brethren. With the circumstances of the pointes thereof, Doost thou louelove me? and, I hauehave prayed for thee Peter. What, and how, they make for Peter▪ how for all.

HART.

The promise made to Peter hath not onelyonly shew but also weight of truth to proue his supremacie. But, to satisfy you,The first Diuisiō. who thinke it not weightie enough of it selfe, I will adde thereto the performance of it, and so you shall hauehave it weight with the aduantage. **Staplet. prin. doctrin. l. 6. c. 9.For, it was said to Peter in the presence of three Apostles, Iames, Iohn, and Thomas, by our Sauiour Christ, 11Eo etiam m… mento.euen at the very moment when he would now ascend vp vntounto his father, and therefore either then or neuer make his vicar: aaIoh. 21.15, 17.John 21:15John 21:17Pasce agnos meos, pasce oues meas; Fede my lambes, fede my sheepe.

Rainoldes.

Not, at the very moment. That, is the aduantage (I wéene) which you will adde to make vp the weight: as some adde eare-wax to light angels. But the wordes were spoken: what do you gather of them?

Hart.

Christ, in those wordes, did truely performe the promise of the keyes which he had made to Peter. But Christ gaue him commission to féede his whole flocke, without exception of any. Therefore he made him supreme head of the Apostles.

Rainoldes.

This reason doth séeme to be sicke of the palsie. p. 122The sinewes of it hauehave no strength.

Hart.

Why so?

Rainoldes.

Because in the charge of feeding sheepe and lambes, neither was the commission giuen vntounto Peter: and if it were, yet no more was committed to him then to the rest of the Apostles: and if more, yet not so much, as should make him their supreme head.

Hart.

If you proue the second of these thrée pointes: the other two are superfluous.

Rainoldes.

They are so. But you shall hauehave weight with aduantage, to ouerwaigh your weight to vsus ward. And, for the first: I hauehave alreadie shewed, that the commission which Christ gaue to Peter, he had giuen it him bb…. 20.21.before, when he said, As my father sent me: so do I send you. Receiue the holie Ghost. Whose sins soeuer ye remit, they are remitted to them: whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine, they are reteined.

Hart.

But Christ gaue him not so much at that time, as hée had promised him. Wherefore, part of his promise being performed then, part was performed after: then, as much as he had ioyntly with the Apostles; after, that he had ouer them.

Rainoldes.

This is your bulwarke of Peters supremacie: but it is builded on a lye. For all that Christ had promised him, was implied in that he had said, ccMatt. 16.19.Matt 16:19To thee will I giuegive the keyes of the kingdome of heauen. Was it not?

Hart.

It was so: what then?

Rainoldes.

But in this commission (sending him with ful authoritie and power) he gaue him all the keyes of the kingdome of heauen. In this commission therefore he gaue him all that he had promised.

Hart.

I deny that he gaue him all the keyes in this commission.

Rainoldes.

I proue it. All the keyes, (as it hath appeared by **Chapt. 2. Diuis. 3.your owne confession) are onelyonly too, the key of knowledge and of power: or rather both of power, by Thomas of Aquines iudgement, whom you rather follow. But Christ gaue him both those in this commission: ddIoh. 20.21.John 20:21As my Father sent me, so doo I send you; Receiue the holie Ghost. Wherefore in this commission he gaue him all the keyes of the kingdome of heauen. And whatsoeuer keyes he gaue him in this, he gaue the same to all the rest p. 123of the Apostles. He gaue as much authoritie therefore to them all: as he gaue to Peter. But that is the next point.

Hart.

Yet they receiued ccAct. 2.1.Acts 2:1afterward the holie Ghost from heauen in the day of Pentecost. And therefore they receiued not their whole commission of Christ at this time: they wayted for a part of it.

Rainoldes.

Yes: it was a part of their commission so to waite. For (as it is further declared by S. Luke) when ffLuc. 24. v…r. 45.Luke 24their vnderstanding was opened by Christ that they might vnderstād the scriptures: he commanded them to ggver. 49.stay in Ierusalem, vntill they were indued with power from an high. A King who putteth men in commission of peace, doth giuegive them authoritie to execute that charge by the wordes of his commission. If they perhaps hauehave not such wealth as is requisite for Iustices of peace to discharge their duetie; and the King will giuegive them landes by such a day, thereby to furnish them vntounto it: they receiue by their landes, not authoritie, which they had; but abilitie which they wanted: and the better they are landed, the more are they inabled, but not the more authorized to execute their duetie. Christ, the King of Kings, did put his Apostles in hhRom. 10.15. 2. Cor. 5.20.Rom 10:152 Cor 5:20the commission of peace: of heauenly peace, not earthly; not bodily, but spirituall; not temporall, but eternall. Their authoritie they receiued by the wordes of his commission. But the discharge of the duetie required great treasures of the holie Ghost. Whereof hée gaue them some iiIoh. 20.22.John 20:22then; more in the kkAct. 2.3.Acts 2:3fiery toonges from heauen; more llAct. 10.11. & 11.18.Acts 10:11Acts 11:18as the churches state required; and these, mmLuc. 19.16.Luke 19:16well occupied, gained more: with the increase whereof their abilitie still increased; their authoritie not so, which all was giuen them at once.

Hart.

But a King, for better triall of his Iustices, may commit some lesser authoritie first vntounto them, and afterwarde greater.

Rainoldes.

nnMatt. 10.5.Matt 10:5So did Christ to his Apostles. But hauing made triall of them in the lesser, he called them by this commission to the greater: nay, to the greatest, then which he had no greater for them.

Hart.

Not within the limits perhaps of their commission: yet he might enlarge them, and giuegive them greater limits.

Rainoldes.

But Christ in this commission had giuen them p. 124authoritie through all his dominion, not through a shire onelyonly. For he sent them ooMarc. 16.15. Luc. 24.47.Mark 16:15Luke 24:47to all nations.

Hart.

And what, if I grant, that Christ in this commission gaue all that power to Peter, which he had promised him, & was to giuegive vntounto him?

Rainoldes.

If he gaue him all that power in this commission: no part thereof remained to be giuen in any other. If no part to be giuen: then was there no further power giuen to him by those wordes of Christ, Feede my lambes, feede my sheepe. If no further power were giuen him thereby, the bulwarke of your Papacy is builded on a fansie.

Hart.

Then belike our Sauiour spake to no purpose, when he said to Peter, ppIoh. 21. ver. 15 1…. & 17.John 21:15Doost thou louelove mee? Feede my lambes. Doost thou louelove mee? Feede my sheepe.

Rainoldes.

God forbid. To great purpose: though not to yours. For he giueth him therein a commandement, though not a commission. As if the Quéenes Maiestie, hauing made alreadie by letters of commission some Iustices in the North, & one perhaps amongst them, of whose faithfull heart she were persuaded well, yet, that had shewed himselfe not of the trustiest in time of the rebellion, shée should say vntounto him (to stirre in him a liuely regard of his duetie,) Do you louelove vsus? HaueHave care of our poore subiectes: Doo you louelove vsus? HaueHave care of our good people. Which charge and commaundement Christ might giuegive a great deale better to Peter, then the Quéene to any Iustice in y^e North: because shée knoweth not whither any new Bull be comming from Rome, or new rebellion be toward. But he knew that Peter should be in greater danger, then he was when he fled, and denied his Maister. Whereof, he forewarneth him (straight vponupon the giuing him of this commandement) and that, with earnest **Verely, verely I say vntounto thee.words of great asseueration, as in a matter of weight: telling him, qqIoh. 21.18.John 21:18that he should dye a gréeuous death for his profession of the faith and féeding of the flocke of Christ. So y^t, to arme him against that feare of the flesh, which before had made him to betray his duetie, when he had lesse cause to feare: Christ hauing made the iron hot, as it were, by asking him, Doost thou louelove mee? striketh it, to make it a fit instrument to build with, & so commandeth, Feede my flocke; yea though the worke be painefull, p. 125and will cost thée déere: for it shall bring thée to thy death. So, he committeth not a new charge to Peter, but willeth him to looke to that, which he had committed, and flée not from it for any danger. As if a wise shipmaster, séeing a daungerous storme at hand, should command his mariners whom he had well deserued of, that, if they louelove him, they looke vntounto their tackelings.

Hart.

Well. If it were (perhaps) not a commission, but a commandement: yet was it a commandement to discharge that duetie, wherewith he was put in trust by commission.

Rainoldes.

I grant. What inferre you?

Hart.

Then Peter had commission to feede the lambes and sheepe of Christ.

Rainoldes.

Who dooth deny it? For rrIoh. 20.21.John 20:21he had the same commission from Christ, that ssLuc. 4.18.Luke 4:18Christ from God his Father, to preach the Gospell to the poore, to heale the broken-hearted, to preach deliuerance to the captiues, and recouering of sight to the blind, to set at libertie them that are bruised and preach the acceptable yeare of the Lord. Which is, in other wordes, to feede the lambes and sheepe of Christ. For Christ by a similitude, is named the tt1. Pet. 5. ver. 4.1 Pet 5:4chiefe shepheard: his church, and chosen seruants, uuver. 2.a flocke of sheepe and lambes; whereof he gaue a principall charge to his Apostles, that they should féede it. Wherefore the commandement giuen vntounto Peter to feede his sheepe and lambes: importeth the commission which before was giuen him, when Christ sent him, as God sent Christ. But in this commission the Apostles all were equall vntounto Peter. They were equall therefore to him in charge of feeding the sheepe and lambes of Christ. And so the second point which I had to proue (the verie deaths-wound of your supremacy) is proued.

Hart.

Proued? How proued?

Rainoldes.

As clearely, as the Sunne dooth shine at noone day. For, to send the Apostles, as God the Father sent Christ, is to giuegive them charge to feede his sheepe and lambes. But Christ sent the Apostles, as God the Father sent him. Therefore he gaue them charge to feede his sheepe & lambes. Now, this is the greatest power, that can be shewed, was giuen Peter by Christ. Wherefore in the greatest power, that Christ gaue p. 118him, the rest of the Apostles all were his equals. If you be loth herein to beleeue the Scripture: yet beleeue the Pope, and xxPope Anacletus▪ Dist. …. c. in no… …estamento.an ancient Pope (vnlesse the Canon law lye,) The rest of the Apostles receiued honor and power in equall felowship with Peter.

Hart.

It is true that the Apostles were equall to Peter: but in respect of their Apostleship, not of their Pastorall charge.

Rainoldes.

This answere of yours, hath a distinction, but not a difference. It is the same fellow, but in an other gowne, whom (yyChapter 2. Diuision 3…. a litle rather) I shewed to be a bankrupt: and now he commeth foorth againe in newe apparaile, like an honest and welthy Citizen.

Hart

Why say you so?

Rainoldes.

Because you did distinguish the Bishoply power of the Apostles, from their power Apostolike: as here (with other wordes) you doo their Apostleship from their Pastorall charge. Whereas in déede the pastorall charge of the Apostles is nothing els but their Apostleship: and hath no more difference then the other had. For the name of Pastor is vsed in two senses, a speciall, and a generall. In the speciall, to note a kind of function distinct from the Apostles, (zzStaplet. princ. doctr. lib. 6. c. 7. & 15. your Doctor graunteth it,) and so Apostles are not Pastors: as when it is said, aaEphes. 4.11.Eph 4:11some Apostles, some Prophets, some Euangelistes, some Pastors and teachers. In the general, to signifie the cōmon charge of al such, as do teach the word and féede the flocke of God: in which respect bbIoh. 10.11.John 10:11Christ him selfe is called a Pastor. Wherefore sith Apostles are not Pastors by the former sense; by the later, whosoeuer are equall in the Apostleship, must néedes consequently be equal in the Pastorship too: your distinction, that they were equal in the one not in the other, hath no more reason, then an other of ccPrinc doctrin. l. 6. c. 7. Petro d…ta est potestas p…aeceptiua, seu regiminis: Apostolis autem tantum exequ… tiua, seu gubernationis.D. Stapletons, who saith, that they were equall in power of gouernment, but not of regiment.

Hart.

You depraue his wordes. For he saith that this is the greatest difference betweene Peter and the rest of the Apostles, that Christ gaue to Peter the power of regiment, or to commaund: to the Apostles only the power of gouernmēt, or to execute: because in gouernment of the church Peter must prescribe, what should be done, and they must execute it.

Rainoldes.

I depraue them not, vnlesse he speake sottishly, p. 123he knoweth not him selfe what. For his drift is, to proue, that the Apostles all had equall power giuen them by Christ, but with a threefold difference: of which this is one, that they had equall power (forsooth) to doo and execute all things that appertaine to the building of the Church; but so, that Peter had the power of regiment, to commaund, the rest of the Apostles the power of gouernment, to execute. Which is as ridiculous, as if a man would say, that the Queenes Maiestie and the Sheriffes of London hauehave equall power both: yet with a difference, to witte, that her Maiestie hath the power of regiment, that is, to commaund, when a traitor shall suffer, and the Sheriffes the power of gouernment, that is, to execute that which shee commandeth. If you should preach thus in London: our Londoners would smile at it. I thinke that this heresie hath made our wits dull. Your Catholike distinctions are so sharpe and subtill, that wee cannot conceiue them.

Hart.

You may flout as well, if you list, at S. Gregory: who though he vse not the wordes of this distinction, yet he hath the sense of it: saying, ddGrego. Registr. lib. 4. epist. 38.that Andrewe, Iames, and Iohn were heads of seuerall congregations, and all, members of the Church, vnderunder one head Peter.

Rainoldes.

If I should touch Gregory for this, I should do him wrong: as great wrong almost, as your eelib. 6. cap. 7.Doctor doth, who alleageth it out of Gregory. For though he were him-selfe a Bishop of Rome, and a well-willer of S. Peters: yet in that epistle (whence those wordes are cited) he calleth Christ 11Caput vniuersalis ecclesiae.the head of the vniuersal church: Peter, 22Primum mē brum sanctae & vniuersalis ecclesiae.the chiefest member; and others, members of it also. D. Stapleton thinking it a small thing, that Peter should be counted as the chiefest member, vnles he be the head too, hath (vponupon mentiō of the one head) cogged in the name of Peter, **S. Gregory saith, sub v…o capite omnes membra sunt ecclesiae. D. Stapleton citeth it, sub vno capite Petro omnes mē bra ecclesiae.like a cunning gamster to helpe a dye at a neede. Alas a man must enterprise somewhat in such cases. For, you were all vndone, if this game should be lost.

Hart.

I maruaile, that you blush not to vse such vnciuill spéeches, and tauntes, against D. Stapleton, a man of great learning euen in your own iudgement.

Rainoldes.

A man not of so great learning, as reading, if you wil take my iudgement in it. Yet I wish (for his own sake) that his learning were as good, as it is great. But for the vnciuill p. 128speeches, and tauntes, which I vse against him; weigh the occasions and circumstances of them. If he hauehave not deserued as ffMat. 23.13. Luke. 11.4….Matt 23:13Luke 11:4the Scribes and Pharises: let me be rebuked when I touch him, as Christ them. But you deale herein as ggCic. pro …lacco.Tully reporteth that Athenagoras did: of his fault he said nothing, he complained of his punishment. It is lawfull for D. Stapleton to take vp me with his tauntes of hhPrincip. doctr. lib. 4. cap. 1….Caluinist, Anglocaluinist, iilib. 13. cap. 9.Puritan, and that vndeseruedly. But if I reproue on iust cause, with plaine termes, his cogging, corrupting, belying, sclaundering, abusing both of God and men: it is a hainous matter and to bee blushed at. Let them blush, M. Hart, **Reu. 22.15.Rev 22:15who louelove or make lies, either by committing such shamefull trickes of falshood, or by partaking with them. It is no shame for me to note them, and reprooue them.

Hart.

Why? Are you sure that there is no copie of S. Gregories workes, which hath the name of Peter inserted in that place.

Rainoldes.

I thinke that none hath: I am sure that none should hauehave. For, in ffGregor. Registr. l. 4. epist. 36.an other epistle of the same argument, whē he had said y^t al Christians **Soli vni capiti cohaerent, videlicet Christo.do cleaue to only one head, he addeth, Imeane, to Christ: and hauing (in this same epistle) put that difference betwéene Christ and Peter, that Peter is a member, Christ the head of the church, he sheweth manifestly whom he meant by head. A thing so apparant, that ggDe concordant. catholic. lib. 2. cap. 34.Cardinall Cusanus doth cite those wordes of Gregory **Sub vno capi…e Cristo omnes membra.with Christes name inserted: either as hauing read them so in some copie, or to open the meaning of them. How much the more shamefull is Stapletons dealing, who foysteth in [Peter:] to set (by that conueiance) the Pope in Christes roome. But you were best to go forward with the scriptures: and then (when you hauehave found nothing in them,) come to the Fathers after.

Hart.

You are very peremptorie still in your spéeches. I wil find in them as much for the substance as I hauehave affirmed▪ For, howsoeuer the wordes of Pastorall charge, and the Apostleship; the power of regiment, and gouernment, agree with my meaning: my meaning, (I am sure) agreeth with the scriptures, and standeth with good reason.

Rainoldes.

Then you shall do well hereafter to refraine from such foggy distinctions, deuised to choke the blinde, p. 129(who eate many a flie:) and expresse your meaning in cleare and playne wordes: least we suspect, that you fansie darkenesse more then light.

Hart.

This is my meaning, that Peter had authoritie ouer the Apostles to féede them, to rule them, to be a Pastor of them: which the rest of the Apostles had neither ouer him nor one ouer an other.

Rainoldes.

So. Now make proofe of it.

Hart.

Christ did say to Peter: hhIoh. 21.17.John 21:17Doost thou louelove me? Feede my sheepe. Whereof thus I reason. Christ did charge Peter to feede his sheepe, all; euen all his shéepe, without exception. But the Apostles were sheepe of Christ. Therefore he had the charge of feeding them also.

Rainoldes.

Christ saide to the Apostles, iiMarc. 16.15.Mark 16:15Go ye into all the world▪ and preach the Gospell to eueryevery creature. Whereof thus I reason. Christ did charge his Apostles to preach the Gospell to euerie creature, to euerie one without exception. But Peter was a creature. Therefore they had the charge of preaching to him also. Now, if I would play with wordes as your men doo: I could shew that this reason must ouermaster yours in the plaine field. For Christ said not to Peter, feed all my sheepe: but he said to the Apostles, preach to euerie creature.

Hart.

But you should consider **Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca. 10.that Christ giuing that commandement to Peter, gaue it with a difference betwéene the shéepe and the lambes, as kkCommentar. in Luc. lib. 10.S. Ambrose hath noted well, (set me downe, I pray, his owne wordes in Latin:) tertiò Dominus interrogauit: & noniam agnos, vt primò, quodam lacte pascendos; nec ouiculas, vt secundò; sed oues pascere iubetur, perfectiores vt perfectior gubernaret. That is to say, When the Lord had asked Peter the third time, Doost thou louelove me? hee is commanded now to feede, not the lambes, as at the first time, who must be fedde with certaine milke; not the litle sheepe as the seconde time; but to feede the sheepe, that he (a man more perfit) might gouerne the more perfit. So that the whole flocke of Christ was committed to Peter to be fedde, as well the small as the great; both the lay men, who, as lambes, are fedde themselues, and féede not others; & the Priests and Clergie, who, as sheepe, doo féede the lambes, but are fedde of the shepheard.

Rainoldes.

The lambes and the sheepe doo signifie two p. 133kindes of Christians: the one yonger and tenderer, which néedeth to be taught the first principles of religion, as it were llHebr. 5.12.Heb 5:12to be fedde with milke: the other riper and elder, fit to learne the déeper mysteries of faith, to be fedde with strong meat. This S. Ambrose noted well in the commandement that Christ gaue to Peter. Though the difference, which he maketh betwéene the second and the third, 11Ouiculas, et oues.the litle sheepe and the sheepe; was either an ouersight in the 22Reading perhaps foreign for foreignGréeke copie, or a fansie of some interpreter. Which I would not mention, but that you bid me set downe his owne wordes in Latin, as though there were some mysterie in them, which yet your selues are wont to make no account of: vnlesse your mmRobert. Bellarm. Rom. Controuer. 4. quaest. 3. de summo …ont.Roman reader hath spied more in it, who saith that the text ought to be corrected, and read as Ambrose cited it. But your glose, of the lay-men to be signified by lambes, and by the sheepe the Priestes and Clergie: dooth varie from y^e text, not of Christ onelyonly, but of Ambrose too. For wheras they speake of the lambes, and the sheepe, both which the flocke consisteth of: you interpret their words of the sheepe, and the shepheards. And whereas all Pastors are bounde to feede both sheepe and lambes: you make as though y^e rest must féede none but lambes, and all the sheepe were Peters. From dreaming whereof S. Ambrose was so farre, that nnDe dignit. sacerdot. cap. 2. Eas cum illo nos suscepimus omnes.he saith of the shéepe which Christ commanded to be fedde: Peter did not only receiue the charge of them, but himselfe and all Bishops receiued it with Peter. Wherefore, you should consider, that in Christes commission vntounto the Apostles they are not considered as shéepe, but as shepheards: and therefore not them-selues to be fed of any, but all to féede others. So, when they abode togither in Ierusalem: they sed the church in common (with, ooAct. 2.…2.Acts 2:2the doctrine of the Apostles) not Peter them, and they the rest. And when they went thence into other countries: they went not as shéepe with Peter their shepheard, but as seuerall shepheards to shéepe of all nations.

Hart.

Be it so: that Christ spake (in his commission) to them, as to shepheards. Yet were they also shéepe of the flocke of Christ. And therefore he might well appoint a shepheard ouer them.

Rainoldes.

And was not Peter also a shéepe of Christs flock? And must▪ not our Sauiour appoint by this reason, a shepheard ouer him also? For, if all sheepe need it: why not S. Peter? If some néed it not: why the Apostles? But, it is true, that, as they were shéepe, so néeded they sometimes to bee p. 134fedde, the best of them: and this did Christ prouide for, though not with your policie; not by setting one as Pastor ouer all, but by geuing charge of eueryevery one to other. For as S. Paule said to the Elders of Ephesus, ppAct. 20.2….Acts 20:2Take heed vntounto your selues and to all the flocke, charging them with care not of their flocke onelyonly, but of themselues too, all of all, and ech of other: in like sort the Apostles who had charge of all in that they were shepheardes, were to be looked too, in that they were sheepe, to be admonished, taught, fedde, not eueryevery one of Peter, but eueryevery one of other, yea euen Peter also him selfe, if néede required. Hereof their practise is a proofe. For qqGal. 2.14.Gal 2:14whē Peter went not with a right foote to the truth of the Gospell: S. Paule reproued him openly before all men for it. But to reproue him was to féede him. Therefore S. Paule did feede S. Peter.

Hart.

**Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 14.S. Paule reproued him, not by authority, but of curtesie: and Peter yelded to it, not of duetie, but of modestie. As now any Bishop may reproue the Pope: and he will harken to it patiently, and mildly; and yet impaire not his supremacie.

Rainoldes.

I acknowledge a distinctiō of the Romain style: **Sacrar. ceremon. eccles. Romanae, l. 3. sect. 1. c. quod Romanus Pontifex nemini reuerentiā facit.which (in the booke of Ceremonies of the church of Rome, in the chapter, that the Pope doth do reuerēce to no man) saith, that notwithstanding the maiestie and solemnitie, which he vseth to highest states in entertaining of them: yet Popes are accustomed (whē they are not in their pōtificals) to 11Aliquantulum caput inclinare.bow their head a litle as it were rendring reuerence to Cardinalles 22Maximis principibus.and to mightie Princes, when they come priuatly and doo reuerence vntounto him. 33& hoc non ex officio, sed ex laudabili humanitate.Marry this, not of duetie: but of laudable curtesie. The Pope shewed not you this curtesie, M. Hart, when he admitted you to kisse his holinesse foote: it was not for his state to doo it. Yet hath he so bewitched your senses therewith, that you (to render him not duetie, but curtesie) forget both curtesie, and duetie, to Paule the Apostle, the chosen instrument of God, and penneman of his holy spirite. For S. Paule mentioneth his reproofe purposely, to proue, that he was Peters equall in authoritie: against the false Apostles, who sought to discredite the doctrine which he taught, by deba…ing him and setting others farre aboue him. You say that he reproued Peter, of curtesie, and not by authoritie. Wherby (marke it well) you say in effect, that he made a foolish reason to proue a false conclusion. p. 116And, if he were inferiour to Peter in authority, as he was by your answeare: what meant he to say that ss2. Cor. 11.5.2 Cor 11:5he accounted himselfe **foreign.nothing inferiour to the very chiefe Apostles. You adde that any Bishoppe may so reproue the Pope. Your ttThom. Aquin. in 4. Sent. distinct. 19. quaest. 2. art. 2.Thomas saith, no. For he writeth that this fact (of Paule reprouing Peter) exceedeth the measure of brotherly correction which subiectes owe vntounto their prelates, because he did it uuGal. ….14.before the multitude. Though otherwise him selfe (to vphold the Papacy) vseth xxPaulus fuit par Petro in exequutione autoritatis, no… autoritate regiminis. in epi. ad Galat. cap. 2. le…t. 3.Gal 2such shiftes, as you do: & yyIn secunda secundae quaest. 33. art. 4.maketh his account of Paule as the subiect, and Peter as the prelate, according to the zz2. q. 7. c. Testes.Canon lawe. But his owne sentence may serue for an axe to behead your common errour. For either S. Paule in so reprouing Peter did transgresse his duetie; or he was his equall in authoritie, not his subiect. But, to say the former, is a blasphemous spéech of aaHieron. pro…m. commentar. in epist. ad Gala…. & in cap. 2.Porphyrie. The latter therefore is true. And so your answere falleth of authoritie and curtesie.

Hart.

I graunt that bbStaplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 14.S. Paule was equall in authoritie to Peter, in some sort. Yet this is a notable difference betweene them, and well worth the marking, that S. Paule was the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles: but Peter the Apostle both of Gentiles and of Iewes. Which (because we louelove not to speake without Doctors) you may read in S. Ambrose, in his Cōmentaries on this place,Ambros. in comment. epist. ad Galat. **Gal. 2.8.Gal 2:8He that wrought by Peter in the Apostleship of circumcision, wrought by me also towardes the Gentiles. He nameth Peter alone (saith he) and compareth him vntounto himselfe, because he had receiued the primacie to build the Church; that himselfe likewise is chosen to hauehave the primacie of building the Churches of the Gentiles. Yet so, that Peter preached to the Gentiles also. These are S. Ambrose his wordes.

Rainoldes.

HaueHave you read these words your selfe in S. Ambrose: or do you take them vp on credit?

Hart.

What if my selfe hauehave read them?

Rainoldes.

Then shall I thinke worse of you, then I hauehave done. For I hauehave thought you to erre of simplicitie. But I smell somewhat else here.

Hart.

In déede, I reade them not my selfe, in S. Ambrose, but in D. ccPrincip. doct. lib. 6. cap. 14.Stapleton: who citeth them as I do.

p. 133Rainoldes.

Then you may learne the precept of **…. foreign.a wittie Poet; Be sober and distrustfull: these are the ioyntes of wisedome. For this which you hauehave taken of D. Stapletons credit, is clipped: fowly clipped. If he should deale so with y^e Princes coine: I know what iudgement he should hauehave. The wordes of Ambrose are, Ita tamen vt & Petrus gentibus praedicaret, si causa fuisset, & Paulus Iudaeis: yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also, if it were needfull, and Paule to the Iewes. D. Stapleton citeth them, Ita tamen, vt & Pe…rus gentibus praedicaret. Haec ille. Yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also. Thus saith Ambrose. See you not, how hansomely he hath clipped-of the last words of Ambrose, [& Paulus Iudaeis, and Paule to the Iewes:] to proue, that Paule might not preach vntounto the Iewes, as Peter might vntounto the Gentiles? Yet this is D. Stapleton, whose **Principior. … dei doctrina… demonstratio methodica: pe… controu…rs. 7. in libris 12. tradita.Treatise of the Church some of our English Studentes and young seduced gentlemen thinke to be a treasure of great truth and wisedome. But God wil make the falsehood and folly thereof euident to all men at his good time. For this present point, that Paule was an Apostle and teacher of the Iewes and the Gentiles both, as well as Peter was, and therfore not inferior to him in this respect: the Scripture is so cléere, that no mist of Stapletons, though it were as thicke as the darkenes of Egipt, can take away the light of it. The wordes of Christ proue it, spoken (touching Paule) vntounto Ananias: ddAct. 9.15.Acts 9:15He is a chosen vessell to me, to beare my name before the Gentiles, and kinges, and the children of Israel. The commission by Ananias sent vntounto Paule: eeAct. 22.14.Acts 22:14The God of our Fathers hath appointed thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Iust one, and heare the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt bee his witnesse, vntounto all men, of the thinges which thou hast seene and heard. Paules obedience to his calling, and performance of his duetie: ffAct. 9. ver. 20.Acts 9:20He preached Christ in the Synagogues, ggver. 2….he confounded the Iewes, hhver. 29.he spake and disputed with the **Not foreign but foreign, that is, Gentiles borne, conuerted to the Iuish faith and circumcised: which are called proselytes. Act. 2.10. &. 13.43.Acts 2:10Acts 13:43Graecians, (Iewes by religion, although not by parentage:) to be short, iiAct. 13. ver. 2.Acts 13:2when he was sent by speciall commission of the holy Ghost, for the worke whereunto God had called him and Barnabas: kkver. 5. & 14.they preached the worde of God in the Synagogues of the Iewes through diuers cities and countries: vntill that llver. 45.when the Iewes did stubbernely resist the truth which p. 114they preached, they said boldly to them, It was necessarie that the word of God should hauehave bene first spoken vntounto you: but seeing you put it from you, and iudge your selues vnworthie of euerlasting life, lo, we turne to the Gentiles. Wherefore as hhAct. 8.25. & 10 28.Acts 8:25Acts 10:28Peter preached the Gospell both to Iewes and Gentiles: so did also Paule. As iiAct. 15.7.Acts 15:7God did choose Peter, that the Gentiles by his mouth should heare the word of the Gospell: so did he choose Paule.

Hart.

Why dooth Paule then call himselfe kkRom. 11.13. 1. Tim. 2.7. 2. Tim. 1.11.Rom 11:131 Tim 2:72 Tim 1:11the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles: and that in sundry places?

Rainoldes.

Because that when he and Peter perceiued, that God did blesse the labours of the one of them amongst the Iewes chiefly, of the other amongst the Gentiles: they agreed togither and llGal. 2.9.Gal 2:9gaue the right handes of fellowship each to other, that Paule should preach vntounto the Gentiles, & Peter to the Iewes: not so, but that either (if occasion serued) might and did preach to either, as mmComment. in epist. ad Gal. cap. 2.Gal 2Ambrose noted well, and nnAct 28.17.30.Acts 28:17Acts 28:30it is written of Paul namely: but that they should specially teach, the one, y^e Iewes; the other, the Gentiles, as ooRom. 1.13. 1. Pet. 1.1. and so forth the rest.Rom 1:131 Pet 1:1their epistles shew they did. Thus, if you regard that, which they did chiefly: Peter was an Apostle and teacher of the Iewes, Paule of the Gentiles. If that which they might doo, and did by occasion: they were the Apostles and teachers, both of both, and so no difference betwéene them.

Hart.

We graunt **Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca. 14.that there was no difference betwéene them, in the office of the Apostleship: for therein was Paule equall vntounto Peter.

Rainoldes.

He that granteth this, would sée, if he had eyes, that he must grant the other, which he hath denied. For, if equall in the office of the Apostleship: then equall in the charge of preaching to all nations. And if in the charge of preaching to all nations; then both to Iewes and Gentiles.

Hart.

It is true: to both. But so, that S. Peter was chiefe Apostle to them both, and the supreme head to rule as well S. Paule, as the rest of the Apostles.

Rainoldes.

I hauehave proued that Peter had no such headship ouer them. You barely say the contrary, and repeat it still. This is a fault in reasoning, condemned of the ppAristot. in Reprehens. Sophist.Logicians by y^e name of begging that which is in controuersie. I pray vse it not: but either proue that you say, or hold your peace and cease to say it.

p. 135Hart.

I will proue it **Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca. 1….by the circumstances of the words of Christ qqIoh. 21. ver. 15.16. & 17.John 21:15John 21:16John 21:17saying vntounto Peter, Doost thou louelove me more then these? Feede my lambes. Doost thou louelove me? Feede my sheepe. Doost thou louelove me? Feede my sheepe. Wherein, sundry principall pointes are to be noted. First, he requireth of him an open profession and testimonie of his louelove, to this intent that he may put him in trust with his flocke. Secondly, he requireth not onelyonly that he louelove him, but also that he louelove him more then the rest: that to him as louing him more then y^e rest, he may giuegive power aboue the rest. Thirdly, he asketh him thrise, if he louelove him; and the former times with the word foreign, the last with foreign, which noteth feruent louelove. With the which worde also Peter had answered him still. Fourthly, he saith vntounto him thrise also, feede. And, to passe ouer the sheepe and the lambes, whereof I spake before; fiftly, the first charge of feeding the lambes, & the last of the shéepe are vttered with the Gréeke word foreign, that is, feede, the second of the shéepe, hath foreign ▪ y^t is, rule: to shew that the lambes, euen lay-men (as I said) are onelyonly to be fedde; but the sheepe, I meane, Bishops and Pastors, are both to be fedde and to be ruled of Peter. Sixtly the worde, to feede, hath a great force, and signifieth a power most full and absolute: as the which implieth all other actions of ecclesiasticall regiment. For they are all directed to y^e food of soules. There are obserued more such notes to like effect: but either not so pithie and sound as these are, or treated of alreadie. Wherefore I content my selfe with these sixe. Which if you lay togither, and marke what may be saide in seuerall for each of them: you hauehave inough to proue a great worthines of Peter, in any mans iudgement; in ours, a supremacy.

Rainoldes.

That which is written **Pro. 30.33.Prov 30:33in the Prouerbes of Salomon, Hee that wringeth his nose causeth blood to come out: may be truely saide of the proofes which you presse out of these circumstances. The most pithie of them, if any of them hauehave pith, are they which touch the matter: the question, of louelove required; the charge enioyned, of feeding; and each of them repeated thrise. Which all in verie truth, as Christ did vse them to Peter, were rather a stay of his weakenesse, then a marke of his worthinesse, much lesse a proofe of his supremacy. For Peter had pretended greater louelove to Christ, then had the rest of the Apostles. p. 136In so much that when Christ had told them of their frailtie, the night before his passion, rrMat. 26.31.Matt 26:31All ye wil be offended at me this night, for it is written, I will smite the shepheard and the sheepe shal be scattered: Peter answering said vntounto him, though al should be offended at thee, yet will I neuer be offended. Whereto when Christ replied, verily I say vntounto thee, this night before the cocke crow, thou wilt denie me thrise: Peter answered him againe, though I should dye with thee, yet will I not denie thee. This promise, as it was made by all the Apostles, but chiefely by Peter: so was it broken by them all, but chiefely by him. For they did all forsake Christ: Peter did not only forsake him, but forsweare him too. Wherefore when our Sauiour after his resurrection would gather them togither, to confirme them from their feare, and giuegive them power to preach the Gospell to all Nations: he, that in comforting them all (before his passion) remembred Peter chiefely as néeding it most; Luc. 2….32.Luke 2:32but I hauehave praied for thee: did then (in sending for them to méete him in Galile) remember Peter namely, by the voice of his Angell, saying to the women, ttMarc. 16.7.Mark 16:7tell his disciples and Peter that he wil go before you into Galile. Peter, a disciple: yet named beside y^e disciples: 11Autor commentarior. Hieron. in Marc. cap. 16. Gregor. in Euangelia …omil. …1.Mark 16as who might thinke him selfe not worthy of the name of a disciple, that had denied his Maister thrise. Now when they were come to him into Galile, and had receiued common both comfort and commission to execute the charge whereto they were chosen: Christ admonished Peter particularly of his duetie, and moued him (beside the rest) to do it faithfully; as he particularly before had betraied it, and had behaued him selfe most fearefully aboue the rest. To encourage him therefore with assuring his conscience 22Cyrill in euang. Iohan. l. 12. c. 64. quia Petrus Christi …lementia maioris pe…tiremissionem … iure ab eo m…ior repetitur dilectio. Cui enim pl…s remit…icur. plu… ama…e debet: vt ipse dicit …li…i, Luc. ….of the forgiuenes of his sinne, and strengthē him to constancie, that he offend no more s…: Christ demaundeth of him whether he louelove him; and thereupon chargeth him, to feede his lambes and sheepe. In demaunding of him, doost thou louelove me more then these: first, he toucheth his faulte, who had professed more then these, but had performed lesse then these. Then he sheweth that it is pardoned. For uuLuc. 7.47.Luke 7:47hee who loueth more, to him more is forgiuē : his greater louelove is a token of it. In charging him to feede his lambes and his sheepe: he sharpneth his care, that now he be faithfull and firme in following Christ, though he shall come to daunger, yea to death therby. p. 137Both which, 33August. in Iohann. tract. 123, & de verb▪ Domin. secund. Iohann. Serm. 49. Ambros. comment. in Luc. l. 10.the demaund and charge are thrise repeated: the demaund, that Peter by his threefold answere may counteruaile his threefold denial of Christ: the charge, because that **Eccles. 12.11.Eccl 12:11nailes the oftner they are strooken, the déeper they do pearce. xxPhilip. 3.1.Phil 3:1To write the same to Christians, it greeueth not our Apostle: it is a safe thing for vsus. And although the truth of this exposition be very apparant by conference of Scriptures: yet, that you may take it with the better appetite, who louelove not to eate meate without this sauce, you may know that I finde it (for the chiefest pointes which touch the matter néerest) in Cyril, Austin, Ambrose, and other auncient Fathers. Wherefore, your pithiest notes out of the circumstances of the text, hauehave colour of some proofe for Peters infirmitie, but nought for his Supremacie. As for the other three, which you picke out of the wordes foreign, and to feede: they hauehave no pith at all, they are as bones without marrow. If this be the fruit of yyThe narration of the English Seminar. in Rome.the studie of the toongs renued in your Seminaries, that by shew thereof you may out face the Protestantes, who by helpe therof hauehave ridde your filth out of the church: then your tongues will proue as good as the miracles, which zz2. Tim. 3.8. Exod. 7.11, 13.22.2 Tim 3:8Exod 7:11Exod 7:13Exod 7:22Iannes wrought, and Iambres, to harden Pharaos hart, by doing like as Moses did. You cast vsus in the téeth with a aaCampians chalenge in the sixt article. Bristowes reply to Fulk. chap. 10. Dem. 41.kingdome of Grammarians: but you would raise a Popedome of thē. And bbDe laud. …tult…as Erasmus saith, that Schoolemen, speaking barbarously, saide, it was not meete for the maiestie of diuinitie that it should be bound to keepe the lawes of Grammarians: so the Popedome of Grammarians dealing too too Pope-like in expounding of wordes, (as **Fuit hic nimis um Papaliter dispensatum. 2. q. 5. c. Me…n…m. In glossa. Francis. victoria relect. 4. De potest. Papae & concilii. Albert. Krantz. Saxon. lib. 5. cap. 8.Popes do full oft in dispensing with thinges) will not hauehave them bound to the Grammaticall sense wherein their authors vse them. But if we may obtaine, that iustice be ministred according to the ciuill lawes of our kingdome: then shall the poore wordes (which your Popedome forceth to speake for the Papacye that which they neuer meant) be rescued from that iniurie. For, the Scripture sheweth that, foreign signyfyeth as feruent louelove as foreign in deede the verye same, chyefe…y in S. Iohn: who declaring the perfit and entire louelove, of ccforeign Ioh. 5.20. foreign. Ioh. 13.36 & 10.7.John 5:20John 13:36John 10:7God towardes Christ, of ddforeign. Ioh. 20.2. foreign Ioh. 19.26. & …1, …2.John 20Christ towardes him; one where expresseth it by foreign & other wher by foreign yea by foreign more oft then by foreign. So that (if the wordes had any difference in sense,) p. 138it would be verie likely, that foreign is rather y^e more significant of the two: sith it is vsed also eeIoh. 13. & 14. & 15. & through out all the new Testament.John 13commonly to note the louelove which the Lord doth beare towardes vsus and we should beare one to an other: and that in place of greatest force, as when he saith, ffIoh. 15.12.John 15:12This is my commandement that ye 11foreign.louelove one an other, as I hauehave 22foreign.loued you: 33foreign.greater louelove then this hath no man, when a man bestoweth his life for his friendes. Whereas S. Iohn therefore vttered Christes demand by the one worde, and Peters answere by the other: it séemeth that he vsed the wordes indifferently, as hauing both y^e same meaning. Which is proued also by the consent and iudgement of the Syriake translation, that hath the ggforeignsame worde for them both. Howbeit if the wordes hauehave a difference of sense: it agreeth better with the modestie of Peter to hauehave saide lesse, then more, of his louelove; chiefly, sith hee had fallen by saying too much of it, and had by triall felt his frailtie. But if he did answere, as you imagine him; Dost thou louelove me Peter? Lord, I louelove thee feruently: yet this feruent louelove inferreth no supremacy ouer the rest of the Apostles. For, what he reporteth of his owne louelove, the same doth Christ witnesse of theirs, or rather more, if we would pricke it vp as you doo; euen hhIoh. 16.27.John 16:27that his Father loueth them, because that they loued him. In both the which branches **foreign.that same worde is vsed, which (by your fansie) doth signifie feruent louelove, when it may serue the Popes vantage.

Hart.

We doo not relye so much on that word, as on the other two, foreign, and foreign, but chiefly on y^e word foreign. For although to feed (which is meant by foreign) doth import much: yet to feede and rule (which foreign signifieth) hath a greater force: as those places shew where that worde is vsed, iiforeign. Psal. 2.9. Reue. 2.27.Ps 2:9Rev 2:27Thou shalt rule them with a rodde of yron, and, kkforeign. Matt. 2.6. Mich. 5.2.Matt 2:6Mic 5:2he shall rule my people Israel. Wherefore Christ committed a soueraine power to Peter in that llIoh. 21. ver. 16.John 21:16he said foreign: not onelyonly to feede but to rule and gouerne too.

Rainoldes.

Then it was not Peters duetie to rule y^e lambes but the shéepe onelyonly. For Christ doth say foreign, speaking of the shéepe: and mmver. 15.of the lambes, foreign.

Hart.

So I said. Yet that word which he vseth of the lambes he vseth nnver. 17. …b. 6. cap. 10.of the shéepe also. Whereby this is shewed (as I touched briefly out of ^o D. Stapleton) that lambes must be onelyonly p. 139meated and fedde of Peter (through the common foode of doctrine to be looked for from 11Ab hoc supremo patre familias.him, as supreme father of the houshold, and from his Sée,) and they must be ruled of their next and proper Pastors whom immediatly they are vnderunder: but sheepe, that is to say, the greater and perfiter, Bishops themselues and Pastors, are committed to him not onelyonly to be fedde with the common doctrine, but also to be ruled 22Ab illo tanquam supreme pastorum pastore.of him more immediatly as of the supreme Pastor of Pastors.

Rainoldes.

So your Doctor noteth (I grant,) and you touched it. But you were best recall it, or els this fine fansie of that Gréeke word, as it is farre fetched, so will be deare bought. For it must cost the Pope halfe of his supremacy.

Hart.

Why doo you say so?

Rainoldes.

Why? Are not Princes comprised in the name of lambes, by your iudgement: as Bishops, and Pastors, in the name of sheepe?

Hart.

They are: and what then?

Rainoldes.

The Pope then hath nothing to doo with the ruling and gouerning of Princes; much lesse with deposing them. For Peter had commission (you say) to feede onelyonly (and not to rule) the lambes.

Hart.

But they must be ruled of their next Pastors, and so, by consequent, of the Pope: because their Pastors must be ruled of him, as Pastor of Pastors.

Rainoldes.

Nay: but the Pastors are not to be ruled by the Pope neither, if this fansie hold. For in your Latin authenticall translation ppIoh. 21.16. Pasce agnos, for foreign.John 21:16y^e clawse which doth answere to y^e Gréeke word hath not sheep but lambes. Whervpō qqThe Rhemish Testament on that place in the margent.your Rhemists also note y^e same as spokē of lambs, foreign, feed & rule. So that, howsoeuer he lay hold on others by y^t Gréeke word compared with your Latin text: yet his rule & gouernment of Bishops & Pastors is shakē of therby. And this is as much as half of his supremacy: nay all, by a consequent. For his claime lieth, first, ouer Bishops: and then, by means of Bishops, ouer the whole church. Thus while you deuise by quirkes of your owne to vnderprop y^e Pope, you lay him on the ground: & do him more harme by crasing of y^e word foreign, then good by fortifying of foreign. For although it signifie to feede, in such sort, as shepheards do their sheepe, and so consequently to rule them, and guide them, in all respects p. 116as shepheards doo, for the preseruing of them: yet that charge of ruling belonged not to Peter alone peculiarly, but was and is common vntounto all shepheards. Our English toong answereth not to the felicitie of the gréeke and latin in making euident proofe hereof. For in the gréeke wordes foreign, & foreign, and in the Latin pastor & pasco, the matter would be plainer. But yet in our English, a shepheard, and, to feede in that sort with ruling, are **Coniugata.yoked so togither by lincke (as I may terme it) of reason and sense, though it appeare not in lincke and likenesse of words: that as many as are called to the function of 11foreign.shepheards and Pastors of the church, they all are bound by duetie 22foreignto féede and rule so. The proofe whereof we hauehave in Peter and Paule: who mouing the Pastors (whom they cal Elders) to attend their charge, ii1. Pet. 5.1.1 Pet 5:1the one beseecheth them to 33foreign.feede the flock of God which dependeth on them: kkAct. 20.28.Acts 20:28the other telleth them, that the holy Ghost hath made them ouerseers 44foreign.to feede the church of God; both vsing the same worde foreign as betokening the common charge of shepheards. llReu. 2.27.Rev 2:27Yea Christ him selfe, speaking to the Angel, y^t is, y^e shepherd of y^e church of Thyatira, doth promise that hee who ouercommeth and keepeth his workes vntounto the ende, shall hauehave power giuen vntounto him ouer nations, and 55foreign.he shall rule them with a rodde of yron. So that euen there, where you note that word importeth greatest power of beating downe the wicked: Christ applieth it to all his faithfull seruants and not to Peter onelyonly. Wherefore, if it were so that hee had ment more by saying foreign thē by foreign, in his charge to Peter: yet he meant no more then that which belongeth to eueryevery shepheards charge for the shéepe which God ordeineth him to féede. But, in truth, if your itche of wresting holy scriptures to priuate fansies were healed; you woulde rather thinke that S. Iohn did vtter one sense with sundry wordes, as in the Lordes demaunde of Peter, Doost thou mmforeign, and foreign.louelove mee? so in his commandement to Peter nnforeign and foreign.Feede my sheepe. For the Syriake translation, which your selfe alleaged, to proue, that the Gréeke wordes foreign & foreign, though different in sound yet are one in sense, because our Sauiour spake in the Syriake toong, and in the Syriake both are foreign expresseth here also y^e two sundry Gréeke words by one foreign as if that our Sauiour had vsed the same word, and meant the same thing in both. Which interpretation should bée p. 141of greater credit with you in this point then it was in that, because your authenticall Latin translation which there dissented from it, agreeth with it here, expressing likewise both by pasce. Unlesse you will say that your authenticall Latin doth not expresse fully the meaning of the Gréeke.