Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, To the reader – Colophon
Iohn Rainoldes to the Christian Reader.
IT is now fiue yeares almost, (gentle reader) since being occasioned by order of our Vniuersitie to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation: I was moued to make them cō mon vntounto many, that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reape some fruite of them. Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall, that, if any fault were found, he might amend it, before they were deliuered to such as they were drawen for: the like hauehave I done with mine, (though not like his,) by keping thē in Latin at home as it were, that, if any thing were iustly blamed in them, it might be corrected, before I sent them abroad to English men. In the which respect, though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry frendes, of whom some had translated them, requesting that I would translate them my selfe or suffer theirs to be printed: yet I resisted it, & hope they tooke it in good part. But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart: I hauehave cō descended vntounto their request, to do them into English, & publish them withall. The rather, because I hauehave proued herein, that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholike faith. The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart auouched. So that, seeing he brake off conference thereon, and would not put the faith of his church to that triall, to which he had put the Pope, the head of it: the godly, who will wish that also had bene handled to the confusion of all Poperie, may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer, as better halfe a loafe (men say) then no bread. And I am the bolder to set it before them: because Doctor Stapleton & Licentiate Martin, who, as euill physicians to get themselues worke, doo praise vnholesome baggage aboue holesome foode, hauehave discōmended it. Chiefly, sith their dealing therein hath bene such, that they hauehave shewed greater stomake thē wisedome, as physicians of no value. For of foure pointes that I find reproued by the former of them, in aThom. Stapleton. princip. fidei doctrin. excus. Paris. 1582.the last editiō of his doctrinall principles: one is, bLib. 1. cap. 6.that I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholike, after a new sort, vnskilfully, and fondly. The distinction therof cIn the second, fourth, and fifth Conclusions.I grounded on the scripture: d1. Cor. 2.1….fond and eAct. 17.1….new (it may be) to others, not to vsus. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stoode. Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it: I will beare with him; as in the rest of his tauntes also. Loosers must hauehave their wordes. An other point fIn the fourth Conclusion.he carpeth at, is mine exposition of holy catholike church. Which I hauing proued by the Papistes themselues, that it must needes signifie the company of the chosen alone, not mixt with wicked ones, because (by their gCatechism. Council. Trident. in exposit. Symboli.catechisme) it is the body of Christ, & hEph. 4.16.all the body of Christ is quickned by his spirit, which the wicked are not: he iStapleton. princ. doctrin. lib. 1. cap. 11.replieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickned by his spirite, because some partes of it are so, not all the body. An aunswere somewhat straunge: considering that the scripture, which I had alleaged, saith that *foreign.al the body of Christ is quickned so. As for that kStaplet princ. doctrin. l. 4. c. 14.he noteth of the word [Catholike,] that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sorte: lTrea…ise of the Church, chap. 2.Philip Mornayes excellent giftes, and fruitfull labors, I reuerence and louelove. And both of vsus hauing aymed at the trueth: whether hath come neerer it, m1. Cor. 14. ver. 29.let the Prophets iudge. But if, among Prophets in the church of Christ, nver. 30.somewhat be reueiled to one, that is not to an other: this iustifieth not them, oReu. 2.….who say they are Iewes, & are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan. Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion; that the holy Catholike church which we beleue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. For touching that he addeth that he hath disproued it, by shewing that the church is distinguished from hereticall assemblies by the name of Catholike: he hath disproued it as soundly therby, as if he should say, that the pEpistola catholica Iacobi & Petri.Catholike epistles in the new Testament, were not so called, as generall, & writen to no certaine persons, because that other writings are named catholike also to distinguish them from hereticall. The third point he taketh vponupon him to confute, is an argument that I made to proue my third Conclusion. qStaplet princ▪ doctrin. lib. 12▪ cap. 16.All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of trueth: some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour. But he that telleth the trueth alwayes, is more to be credited, thē he that lyeth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more thē is the Church. And to this argumēt (saith he) I answere briefly, that no words of the Church are the words of error, that is, that no erroneus thing is euer taught, defined, or approued, by the Church in her Bishops & Pastors teaching vniformly; in the decrees of Councels, chiefly of generall Councels; in that which the Fathers teach with one consent; in her head, the Pope, defining, & deliuering any thing publikely; & finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth: though …euerally some Bishops may priuately erre in teaching; and one or moe Fathers may write some vntrue thing, or be in some er…or; and somewhat euen in Coūcels, without the decree it self, may be said or reasoned inconueniently; and (to conclude) the Pope may be ouerseene priuately in somewhat. But this must be certes imputed to the frailtie of men, not to the Church her selfe. Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an aunswere vntounto my argument: then can I tell him a very briefe way to aunswere my Conclusions all with one word. How? By graunting them all to be true. For though it were so, that nether Bishops teaching vniformely might erre, nor Fathers consenting, nor Councels in decrees, nor the Pope in publike and definitiue sentence, which I both In the thirde Co…cl…sion.there, & sIn the Confe…ence. Chapt. 2. Diuis 2. & Chapt 7. Di…is. …. & 7.else where hauehave shewed to be otherwise, but if it were so: yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers, and Councels, and the Pope himselfe may erre (as he confesseth) in this or that point, and this or that maner; he graunteth that which I said, that some wordes of the Church are the wordes of errour. But those wordes must certes (saith he) be imputed to the frailtie of men, not to the Church her selfe. Now certes M Doctor is a mery mā: who can shift an argument off with such a iest. As though the Church her selfe consisted not of men: and therefore must needes offend so through frailtie, the men offending so. The fourth and last point wherewith tStaplet. princ. doct. l. 13. c. 9.he findeth fault, is, that amongst In the fifth Conclusion.the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike Church, I bring this, that, touching expounding of the Scripture, she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof, which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth, or against the Fathers cōsenting all in one. Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers, yea, that I affirme that it is a marke and token of a false Church to admitte the ioint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture: he dooth me great wrong. For, though by folowing too much breuitie in Latin, I fell into obscuritie, and said not so plainly that which I would, and should, as in the English now I hauehave: yet that which I said, dooth cleere me of his sclaunder, as D. De success. ecclesiast. resp. ad Thom. Staplet. cap. 9.Fulke hath shewed; whom I can better thanke for his defending of me, then deserue the praise that he hath geuen me therein. Nay, I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome, that the faulte which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their iudgemēt in that point. For I declared straight in the words ensuing, that first shee autoriseth thereby her owne practise, as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture, though contrarie to it selfe: next, she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolemen, & wil hauehave thē taken for waters of life: lastly, when some Fathers gainsay her, she reiecteth them, because they all consent not and admitteth them who doo make for her, as hauing hit the mark. Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one. The former two import that I condemne the frensie of the Church of Rome, mainteining her Dunses and deedes against the Fathers. But yConci…. Trid. Sess. 4.the serpentes assembled in the Councell of Trent, hauehave set downe that I spake of (touching the expounding of the scripture) so suttilly: that a simple man would thinke they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture onelyonly, as the Fathers geue all with one consent. Whereas in very trueth they do nothing lesse: they disallow them rather. For whether by *Vnanimem consensum pat…um.the Fathers consenting all in one, they meane the Fathers all, simply, none excepted; that consent is a Phoenix, and neuer will be found: or whether they meane a good number of them, as zIn the Conference. Chapt. 2▪ Diuis. 2.M. Hart expoundeth it▪ they dissent frō senses agreed on by that number. For example, the scripture saith, aIoh. 10.16.There shalbe one flock, one Pastour. The Fathers, bIn Iohan. tract…t. 47. & de verb. Dom. serm. 49.Austin, cIn Iohann. homil. 49.Chrysostome, dIn euang. Iohann. l. 7. c. 6.Cyrill, eEpi…t ad Eua…gri…m.Ierome, & fRegistr. lib. 4. epist. 36.Gregorie, expounde this of Christ. The church of Romes gPope Boniface the eyghth. c. vnam fanctam. extra. de maiorit. & obed. As his schooleman also Thomas of Aquin doth, cont. errores Gr…or.mouth expoundeth it of the Pope. The Councell then of Trent condemning all senses and meaninges of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth, or against the Fathers consenting all in one: doth it not condemne this sense of the scripture geuē by the Fathers, because it is against the sense of their Church? Sure it bindeth not the Papistes to maintaine it. Or els D. hPrincip. doctr. …. cap. 1….Stapleton (I trust) should be censured, for placing the Pope in the one Pastours seate. Wherefore if they, who holde not the senses that the Fathers geue of the scriptures, be the false Church, as ilib. 13. cap. 9.he teacheth vsus: the false Church and the Church of Rome may claime kinred. And thus much of the Doctor.
The kGreg. Martin. in the preface of his discouery.Licentiate foloweth him in the same steppes, reprouing a speech of mine, touching Cyprian. Whose praise of the Romans, that vnfaithfulnesse cannot hauehave accesse to thē, being stretched by Sanders to proue that the Church of Rome cannot erre: lIn my preface to the Conclusions.I, hauing shewed the contrarie by scripture, did adde, What? and was Cyprian of an other minde? Pardon me ô Cyprian: I would beleeue thee gladly, but that beleeuing thee I should not beleeue the word of God. Hereon, M. Martin, to aduauntage his cause, first abuseth mEpist. 55. ad Co…elium.Cyprian, saying, that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith. Which he affirmeth not. But whereas the Nouatian heretikes at Carthage had made themselues there a Bishop in schisme, and to get him credite with the Church of Rome had writen thither falsly, that he was allowed by fiue & twē tie Bishops: Cyprian, to meete with their falshood and treacherie, saith that it could not finde credit with the Romans, who being faithfull men would not giuegive eare to faithlesse lyers. Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deede be deceiued by false reportes of wicked ympes; (for euen there he noteth they might be Mendacia non diu fa…unt.a while, as hee did trie both then and Basilides fesellit Stephanum. Cyprian. …ist. 68.after:) but to stirre them vp to beware of heretikes, by praising them as wary. Wherfore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith: as M. Martin threapeth on him. Yet because he might be supposed to hauehave thought it, at least by a consequent; for if they could not erre *Wherein all men graunt that the Pope may …rie: euen they who stay him most from erring in faith. A…n. Sil…ius Card. in ep. de mo…ibus Ger…. …urreciemata, Sanders, …ellarmin, Torrensis, and the whole nation of the Iesuites.in that, much lesse in faith: therefore I, contenting my selfe with a peremptorie exception against it, sayd, that if he thought it, he must pardon me for not beleeuing him, the word of God gainsaying it. And this doth M. Martin reproue, both for that wherevpon I spake it, and for my kind of speeche. That, wherevpon I spake it, is (he sayth) that eueryevery youth among vsus, vponupon confidence of his spirit, will controll not onelyonly one but all the Fathers consenting together, if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth. In which wordes, by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together, he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him. For I touched the credite of no more of them, then nIo. Picus Mirand. in Apol. Alfonsus a Castr. aduer. haer. l. 1. c. 7. Canus locor. Theolog. l. 7. c. 3. Andrad. defe ns. …id. T…d. l. 2. Sixtus Sen. biblioth. sanct. lib. 5. & 6. & cae… passim.the Papistes grant themselues may be touched. Nor controlled I ought vponupon confidence of my spirite, but of oRom. 11.22.the spirite of God: because it was against, not that which I imagined, but knew to be the truth. My kind of speeche he noteth, for being very fine and figuratiue, as I thought. As I thought? did M. Martin see my hart? If not: hee might hauehave kept that thought within himselfe. For in truth, (to open it, because he presseth me so farre,) I thought in that figure 3Da veniam Cypriane.[Paerdon me ô Cyprian] to imitate a like kind of speeche in S. Austin, 4Da veniam Apostole. Aug. libr. homiliar. quinquagint. homil. 14.[Pardon me ô Paule.] What M. Martin thought, whē herevpon he matched me with vaine & foolish youths: himselfe hath declared. But it would better hauehave beseemed his age, to hauehave acknowledged rather the truth which I proued, then hauehave reproued my kind of speech. For although I be a vaine and foolish youth, who spake so of Cyprian: yet S. Paule was not a vaine and foolish Apostle, whose doctrin I maintayned in it. These are (good Christian reader) the faultes of my Conclusions: al, that are noted by Stapleton & Martin, as farre as I know. If they or any other hauehave touched ought else, which I hauehave not lighted on: I will not be ashamed (vpō notice of it) to bring it forth my selfe, and answere it in iudgement. For I hauehave bene so carefull of true and faithfull dealing, as well in the Conclusions, as in the Conference with M. Hart, God is my record: that, Iob. 31.35.if mine aduersaries should write a booke against me, I would beare it vpō my shoulder, & bind it as a crowne vntounto me. The bolder I am to cōmend them both to thy vpright iudgement: beseeching the Father of lights, for his mercies sake in Iesu Christ, to blesse thee with the grace of his holy spirit, that thou maist grow in knowledge, in faith, in hope, in louelove, and enioy the blessings prepared for the chosen, who seeke and serue him.
Psal. 119.18.
Open myne eyes, (O Lord,) that I may see wonderfull thinges out of thy law.
LONDON▪ Printed by Iohn Wolfe, for George Bishop. 1584.
End of the text · John Rainolds, Conference Between Rainolds and Hart (1584)