Reims Against Rome, Propositions · Proposition 25

Reims Against Rome · Propositions · Proposition 25

p. 183XXV. Propoſition. That prayers are to be made vntounto Angels and Saints departed:

Confuted by their owne Bible.

1. FOr Angels, their owne Bible telleth vsus, that the Angels themſelues forbid worſhip to be done to them, Reu. 19. 10. and 22. 9. And ſo Saint Paul taught that they ſhould not be worſhipped, Col. 2. 18. Now, prayer to them, is worſhipping of them, and that in a great degree.

Secondly, for Saints departed, the Virgin Mary, or any other, they are not to bee prayed vntounto: for they know not our particular eſtates here. Abraham hath not knowne vsus, and Iſrael hath beene ignorant of vsus, Eſa. 63. 16. The dead know nothing more, Eccleſ. 9. 5. Iob. cap. 14. 21. ſpeaking of the dead, ſaith, Whether his children ſhall be noble or vnnoble, he ſhall not vnderſtand. How vaine is it then to pray to them?

Touching either Angels, or Saints, their Bible alloweth vsus not to pray vntounto them.

I. It teacheth eueryevery where, whereſoeuer there is either a commandement to pray, or an example of any holy man of God praying, that the ſame is made vntounto God. For commandement, Pſal. 49. 15. Inuocate me in the day of trouble, who is very ready to heare, Eſay 64. 24. Mat. 11. 28. Come vntounto me, ſaith Chriſt, and promiſeth them that come vntounto him, that hee will not coſt forth, Iob. 6. 37. Iames ſaith, Aske of God, chap. 1. 5. There is no commandement to pray to any other in all the Scripture. For examples, Abraham called vponupon the Name of the Lord; ſo Iſaac, Iacob, Moſes, Ioſua, Samuel, Dauid, and all the reſt. No inſtance can be giuen to the contrary, in either precept, or example.

II. The Apoſtles deſired to be taught to pray, Luk. 11. Now, Chriſt in his perfect forme of Prayer taught them, and in them, p. 184all vsus, to pray aright. And it is againſt praying to Saints and Angels, in the Preface, Our Father, which art in Heauen. Firſt, this is againſt all Shee Saints: for we cannot call the Virgin Marie, nor any woman-Saint, Father. Secondly, this is againſt all Angels: for they bee not our Fathers, but Fellow-ſeruants, as they confeſſe, Reuel. 19. 10. Thirdly, this is againſt all Hee-Saints departed: for they be our Brethren; and in Heauen but one Father, Matth. 23. 8, 9.

In the Petitions which Chriſt willeth vsus to pray for; they cannot be made to any of them. We cannot ſay to them, Hallowed be thy Name, Thy Kingdome come, Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heauen. Can we ſay to them, GiueGive vsus this day our daily bread, Forgiue vsus this day our treſpaſſes, Leade vsus not into temptation, but deliuer vsus from euill?

In the concluſion: for may wee aſcribe to them, and ſay, Thine is the Kingdome, the power, and the glory for ouer, Amen?

Now, if we cannot aske of them theſe things, nor aſcribe to them kingdome, power and glory, without horrible idolatrie and ſacriledge; then either Chriſt taught not ſufficiently in this Prayer, to whom and what to pray for; or elſe if he did, then no Saints or Angels are to be prayed vntounto.

III. Their Bible maketh onelyonly Chriſt the meanes betweene God and vsus: For firſt, it telleth vsus but of one Mediatour, One God, and alſo one Mediatour of God and men, 1. Timoth. 2. 5. Who this one is, it alſo telleth vsus, euen the Man, Chriſt Ieſus, 1. Timoth. 2. 5. And further teacheth, that he is our Mediatour both of redemption, Heb. 9. 12. and of interceſſion, Rom. 8. 34. Heb. 7. 25. neither doth their Bible make any other Mediatour in either of theſe reſpects vntounto God for vsus, ſaue Ieſus Chriſt alone. Secondly, their Bible telleth, that no man commeth to the Father but by Chriſt, Ioh. 14. 6. Thirdly, that we hauehave a promiſe to be heard, if wee aske the Father in his Name, Ioh. 16. 23. Fourthly, that Chriſt foreſhewed, that his Diſciples ſhould aske and pray his Father in his Name, Ioh. 16. 26. Fifthly, their Bible exhorts vsus therefore to goe to him, Heb. 13. 13. to offer vp our prayſes (and ſo our prayers) by him, Heb. 13. 15. for that hee is able to ſaue vsus for p. 185euer, Heb. 7. 25. and therefore to goe with confidence to the Throne of Grace, Heb. 4. 16. for in him we hauehave affiance and acceſſe in confidence by the faith of him, Epheſ. 3. 12. whom the Father euer heareth, Ioh. 11. 42.

IV. Their Bible teacheth vsus, that albeit we need, and hauehave alſo a Mediatour betweene God and vsus; yet it is needleſſe to make any Interceſſour to Chriſt: for he is one that hath compaſſion of our infirmities, Heb. 4. 15. he commands vsus to come to him, Mat. 11. 28. and is alwayes liuing to make interceſſion for vsus, Heb. 7. 25. Seeing then he only is for vsus to God, and that we need none betweene him and vsus, not any Interceſſour to an Interceſſour; the praying to Saints or Angels is a vaine ſhew of wiſdome in ſuperſtition, and humilitie in a will-worſhip, which the Apoſtle condemneth, Col. 2. 23. Laſtly, it is ſo farre from humilitie, not to doe what God willeth vsus to doe, though it may ſeeme otherwiſe to our ſelues, that it is to God grieuous, Eſay 7. 11, 12, 13. Ahaz was willed to aske a ſigne; hee refuſed, holding it to be a tempting of God: but the Prophet reproueth him for it. We are commanded to come to Chriſt. In our conceits this is preſumption; but hauing a warrant ſo to do, we ſinne as Ahaz did, and grieue the Lord, in being ruled by our owne wiſdome, and not by Gods Word.

V. Their Bible teacheth, that prayer can be made to none, but to them in whom we muſt beleeue, Ro. 10. 14. How ſhall they inuocate, in whom they hauehave not beleeued? Therefore except wee beleeue in them, we cannot pray vntounto them. But to beleeue in any creature, the ſame Bible forbiddeth, and pronounceth them accurſed which ſo doe, Ier. 17. 5. And in our Creed wee are taught to beleeue in God, and not in any creature, as the Romane-Trent Catechiſme teacheth, in the Article of the Catholike Church.

VI. Their Bible teacheth, that not onelyonly the members of Gods Church prayed onelyonly to God, but alſo that the very Heathen themſelues neuer prayed to any thing, but what they held to be God, Ion. 1. 5, 6. The men cryed to their god, verſ. 5. and the gouernor ſaid to Ionah, Inuocate thy God. v. 6. Now, Papiſts pray to them which they hold not to be gods, and therefore herein, p. 186by the witneſſe of their owne Bible, are more abſurd then the Heathen. And yet many of the common people are more dangerouſly ſtupid on the other ſide. For they worſhip them for ſo many gods, and put no difference betweene them and Chriſt.

Contraried by Antiquitie.

Epiphanius in pag. 447. Greeke: The body of Mary was holy, but it was not God: and ſhe was a glorious Virgin, but not giuen vsus to worſhip.

Ignatius in Epiſt. ad Philad. O ye Virgins, hauehave before your eyes inlightened by the Spirit, onelyonly Ieſus Chriſt and his Father, in your prayers.

Origen cont. Celſ. lib. 8. In one place he ſaith, OnelyOnly by the guide of Chriſt we are brought to the Father. And in another, Chriſtians make their prayers onelyonly to God by Ieſus Chriſt.

S. Auſtin, confeſſ. lib. 10. cap. 43. ſpeaking of Chriſt, ſaith vntounto God, The true Mediator whom thy ſecret mercy hath made knowne to the humble, is Ieſus Chriſt, the Mediatour of God and men. And on Pſal. 69. If wee ſhould worſhip the Angels, ſaith hee, wee ſhould learne of themſelues not to worſhip them.

The interlineall gloſſe on Eſa. 63. ſaith, that Auſtin was of opinion, that the Saints departed, know not what the liuing do here in this world.

Ambroſe D. obitu Theodoſ. Thou, Lord, onelyonly art to be inuocated.

Ierome ad Heliodor. Epiſt. 3. cap. 1. We ought to inuocate by prayer, to call vntounto vsus none but God.

Nicephorus hiſt. lib. 15. cap. 18 telleth vsus, that one Peter Fuller foreign.fiue hundred yeeres after Chriſt, Biſhop of Antioch, a Schiſmatike, inuented the Inuocation of our Lady, that ſhee ſhould be named in all prayers. If praying to her was ſo late; what may be thought of praying to Saints?

See Chryſoſt. hom. 7. on Col. 2. Ambroſe, in Rom. 1. 5. pag. 177. The Greeke Scholiaſt. pag. 697. Theodoret, on Col. 2. pag. 776.

p. 187Gaineſaid by themſelues.

Eckius Enchirid. cap. 15. confeſſeth, that there is nothing expreſſely to be found in the Scriptures, that Saints muſt be inuocated.

Bellarmine confeſſeth, that the Saints in the time of the old Teſtament, were not inuocated. De Sanct. beatit. cap. 19.

And Salmeron ſaith, that touching this matter, there is nothing to be found in any of the Epiſtles, 1. Tim. 2. Diſp. 2. Art. 7. ſ. prim.

This Suarez alſo acknowledgeth, that before Chriſt not any man directly prayed to the Saints departed, that they would helpe them, or pray for them, Tom. 2. in Tho. Diſp. 42. Sect. 1. pag. 434.

Dom. Bannes 22. q. Art. 10. pa. 170. ſaith, that inuocation of Saints is neither expreſſely, nor vnfoldedly taught in the holy Scriptures.

Tho. Aquinas in Reu. 8. verſe 3. pag. 226. Chriſt, ſaith hee, not by another, but by his owne ſelfe offereth the prayers of the iuſt to his Father; and then addeth this reaſon; For there is no other Mediatour. He ſpeakes here of Chriſt the Mediator of Interceſſion, that there is no other. Here had hee forgotten their diſtinction, that the Saints are Mediatours of interceſſion.

Scriptures obiected, anſwered.

For praying to Angels.

Gen. 48. 16. The Angell which redeemed mee from all euill, bleſſe the Lads.

Anſw. 1. Iacob beginneth his Prayer to God, verſe 15. and addeth this Angell as equall with God: for he ſaith, God that feedeth, The Angell that deliuereth, bleſſe theſe children. Where there is a continuall ioynt act of both, as both being but one indeed. For God, as Eſay ſaith, wil giuegive his glory to none other. And Dauid aſcribes redeeming to the Lord, Pſal. 31. 5.

p. 188II. It is cleare, that the Angell, which deliuered Iacob, was God, Gen. 31. 11. where the Angell ſaith, that hee is the God of Bethel, verſe 13. This is the Angell whom hee there prayed vntounto to be deliuered, chap. 32. 11. and here acknowledgeth to hauehave redeemed him.

III. Iacob prayeth that this Angell would bleſſe the children. Now God onelyonly giueth bleſſings, Iam. 1. 17. Ioh. 3. 27. Pſal. 84. 11. & 121. 1, 2. and of God, Iacob deſired to bee bleſſed, Gen. 32. 26. This Angell therefore was God, and not a created Angell.

IV. If they will hauehave it a created Angell, it may then be thus expounded: The God that feedeth me, & the ſame God which by his Angell, as his inſtrument, deliuereth or redeemeth mee, &c. So as his inuocation is ſtill to God, though hee mentioneth the inſtrument, by which God vſed to deliuer him. For hee ſpeakes here of redemption from euils, and not of that which was wrought by Chriſt in the fleſh, except ſo farre forth, as temporall deliuerances were types of this ſpirituall.

Tobie 5. 16. God which dwelleth in Heauen proſper your iourney, and the Angell of God keepe you company.

Anſw. 1. This Booke is Apocryphall, and therefore is not of force to confirme a Doctrine of faith.

Secondly, this power of Tobie is made to God, and not directed to the Angell. Hee prayeth God to proſper his iourney: and for this end, he deſireth that Gods Angell might bee ſent with them to keepe them company, which we alſo may and doe pray for in ſuch a caſe. For the Angels hauehave charge ouer vsus, to keepe and defend vsus in our wayes and godly courſes.

Oſea 12. 4. He had power ouer the Angell, &c. Hee made ſupplication to him.

Anſw. 1. This Angell was the Lord; for it is ſaid, hee found him in Bethel. Now that Angell was God, Gen. 31. 11, 13. and 28. 13. & 35. 9, 10. and euen in Hoſea 12. verſe 5. hee, the ſame, is ſaid plainely to be The Lord God of Hoſts.

Song of the three Children, verſe 36. O yee Angels of the Lord, bleſſe ye the Lord, &c.

Anſw. 1. This is Apocrypha. Here is no praying to Angels: p. 189for as they ſpeake to Angels: ſo in like manner they ſay, O yee Sunne and Moone, O yee Starres and light. And ſo, O yee winds, fire, and heat, Winter, and Summer, &c. And therefore by the like reaſon all theſe are to bee prayed vntounto: and ſo ſhould wee be worſe then Heathen Idolaters.

II. The words expreſſe a duty of their bleſſing and praiſing of God; which they are to performe to God: and not a word of any thing, that they are requeſted to doe for vsus.

Numb. 22. 34. Balaam ſaid to the Angell, I hauehave ſinned, &c.

Anſw. I. This Balaam was a Witch. Is this a good inſtance? Fit enough for a Romiſh Balaamite.

II. Here is no Prayer made, but a confeſſion of ſinne.

III. This Angell, Balaam ſaid, was the Lord. Compare verſe 35. with verſe 38. And when the Angell, verſe 35. ſaid to Balaam, onelyonly the word that I ſhall ſpeake vntounto thee, that ſhalt thou ſpeake: the Text in chap. 23. 4, 5. ſaith, that God met him, and the Lord put a word into his mouth: ſo verſe 16.

Gen. 19. 18, 19, 20. Oh, not ſo my Lord.

Anſw. Lot here prayed not to a created Angell, it is cleare. For firſt, the Angell which ſpake to Lot thus, I hauehave accepted of thee, I will not deſtroy this Citie, ſpeakes as hauing authoritie in himſelfe. Secondly, hee is called the Lord, verſe 24. The Lord rained from the Lord.

For praying to Saints.

Luk. 16. 24. Father Abraham, hauehave mercy on me, &c.

Anſw. I. This is a Parable, and the letter is not to bee vrged beyond the ſcope of the Parable, which is not to teach vsus to pray to Saints.

II. Their owne men ſay, that vnderunder the Law, as is before ſhewed, there was no praying to Saints. And Bellarmine giueth the reaſon (according to his owne faith) becauſe they were not as yet in heauen.

III. This is an example of a damned man, who flyeth with horrour from the preſence of God; who cals not vponupon p. 190God. Can this be a patterne for Gods Church to follow?

IV. This Parable ſpeakes of Diues and Abraham, as within eyeſight and hearing one of another, though diuided by a gulfe of ſeparation. What is this thē to vsus on earth, to petition Saints in heauen, whom we ſee not, nor cannot certainly tell that they doe heare vsus, to giuegive anſwer againe, as Abraham doth here to Diues?

V. The example is not of one here on earth praying to one in Heauen, as the proofe ought to be; but of one ſoule to another, both departed this life.

Iob 5. 1. Call now if there bee any that will anſwer thee, and to which of the Saints wilt thou turne?

Anſw. I. Eliphas exhorts not Iob to pray vntounto any Saint, but reproues Iobs not well-demeaning himſelfe towards God in his afflictions, by ſo iuſtifying himſelfe, as if there were no iuſt cauſe with God thus to deale with him. And to let him fee how herein hee did amiſſe, he willeth him to conſider the examples of the Saints in affliction, whether they did ſo behaue themſelues: and he implyeth that none did ſo, nor carried themſelues as he did.

II. Their expounding it of praying to Saints, hath no ground hence. For firſt, the interrogation implyeth a negation, that none of the Saints would anſwer, neither would Iob turne to any of them, to hauehave anſwer from them. Secondly, here is no example of inuocation. And if Eliphaz words be vrged as a precept; what warrant had he to impoſe it on Iob? or we, ſo to receiue it from him? For he was no Prophet, ſent of God to teach Iob. And the text telleth vsus, that Gods wrath was kindled againſt him, for that he ſpake not of God the thing which was right, as Iob did, Iob 42. 7. Thirdly, if the words of Eliphaz be vrged, not as a new precept, but as an exhortation to that which was then in practice; why doth Bellarmine and other ſay, that before Chriſt no prayers were made to Saints departed? and why doe they alledge places out of the Old Teſtament, herein fighting againſt themſelues?

Gen. 48. 16. Let my name be named on them.

Anſw. Iacob here willeth not to bee prayed vntounto after p. 191death; for none of his poſteritie euer ſo did: but hee adopteth Ioſephs children, as his owne, and ſo to be called: that is, that Ephraim and Manaſſes ſhould be called the ſonnes of Iacob, or children of Iſrael. The like phraſe is ſo to bee taken, Eſa. 4. 1. Rom. 15. 30. Heb. 13. 18, 19. Iob 42. 8. Gen. 20. and other places, where one is to pray for another.

Anſw. I. Theſe places are ſpoken of one praying for another in this life, and not of any praying to Saints departed. From the liuing to the dead, it followeth not. For men liuing do acquaint one another with their eſtates, and ſo they hauehave certaine knowledge thereof: but it is not ſo betweene the liuing and the dead. It is very vncertaine, whether theſe heare and know what is asked of them.

II. There are for this dutie, pregnant precepts, and liuely examples eueryevery where in Scripture, but none ſuch for the other.

III. The Scripture doth witneſſe the fruitful effect of prayers made here, one for another. As Moſes his prayers for the Iſraelites at the Red Sea, in fighting againſt Amalek, and at other times: So Iſaiah his prayer, for Ieruſalem, for ouerthrow of Sennacheribs Hoſt; and ſo of many others. But the Scripture no where witneſſeth any effect at all, of the prayers of the dead, for any thing here on earth.

IV. This praying is mutuall one for another; as we pray others to pray for vsus, ſo others deſire our prayers for them. But the departed deſire not ours for them, neither need they our prayers.

They alledge other Scriptures to proue, Firſt, that Angels pray for vsus. Secondly, that Saints departed know what paſſeth on the earth. Thirdly, that they doe pray particularly for vsus. Fourthly, that wee may beſeech God to grant our Petitions in fauour and merit of the Saints.

If all this were true and euidently cleere out of Scripture; yet will it not follow, that wee therefore may pray to them. For prayer is a part of Gods worſhip, to bee made onelyonly to God: as precepts dobindlys, the patterne of all true & right praying directeth, and holy mens examples doe teach vsus: So this anſwer p. 192might ſuffice. Yet, that their proofes from Scripture may not deceiue the vnconſiderate; I wil produce the places for all foure, and make anſwer thereunto.

I. Scriptures obiected, That Angels pray in particular for vsus, anſwered.

Zach. 1. 12. And the Angell of the Lord anſwered and ſaid, O Lord of Hoſts, how long wilt thou not hauehave mercy on Ieruſalem, and on the Cities of Iudah, &c?

Anſw. 1. This was a viſion in the night to the Prophet, verſe 8. and chap. 4. 1. and ſo an extraordinarie thing; and being ſo, and alſo but a repreſentation for the preſent to inſtruct the Prophet, a reall and ordinarie act cannot bee concluded from thence.

Secondly, theſe words are not a Prayer, but a kinde of enquirie, after the Lords purpoſe, touching the future eſtate of the Church, that he might enforme the Prophet thereof, as by the preſent enſuing anſwer may appeare, in verſe 13. and the charge giuen to make the ſame knowne to the Church, verſe 14, 15. for her comfort, in reſtoring her to glory and peace, verſe 16, 17.

Thirdly, grant it a Prayer: it will not proue that Angels pray for vsus; becauſe this Angell is not a created Angell, but Ieſus Chriſt, who is often called in the Old Teſtament, an Angell, as before is ſhewed. And that this Angell is ſo to bee taken, is euident: For firſt, the Prophet calleth this Angell, his Lord, verſ. 9. chap. 4. 4, 5. Secondly, the Text calleth him, the Lord, and maketh this Angell and the Lord, all one, verſe 19, 20, 21. Thirdly, to this Angell the other gaue an account, verſe 11. Fourthly, before this Angell ſtood Ioſua the High Prieſt, chap. 3. 1, 3. and he is called the Lord, verſe 2. The Lord ſaid vntounto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, Satan.

Tobie 12. 12. I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the holy One.

Anſw. 1. He that is here brought in for an Angell of God, in chap. 5. 12. told no better then a lye: for he ſaid he was Azarias p. 193the ſonne of Ananias, a mortall mans ſonne: He could not then be an Angell; or if an Angell, a lying one. And as hee made a lye therein, ſo might he doe in this, chap. 12. 12, 15.

Secondly, this place doth not proue that Angels pray for vsus. For he ſaith not, that he prayed for them; but if the lyer may be beleeued, he brought their prayers vntounto Gods remembrance, and preſented them, verſ. 15. as one taking a Petition of another man to preſent it to a King; he is the preſenter of it, but not the Petitioner.

Thirdly, this Booke is Apocrypha, and ſuſpected of idle fables, ſuch as learned Papiſts doe meanely eſteeme of.

Reu. 8. 4. And the ſmoake of the Incenſe, which came with the prayers of the Saints, aſcended from the hand of the Angell before God.

Anſw. 1. Here is no created Angell, but Ieſus Chriſt; which is cleere by theſe reaſons.

Firſt, from the alluſion to the Prieſts office ſeruing at the Altar; who was a type, not of a created Angell, but of Chriſt, Heb. 9. 11. Then, from the place, where this Angell ſtands; which was at the Altar, to offer vponupon the golden Altar, which was before the Throne: but the Angels are in the out circuit of the Church, chap. 5. 11. as her guard to keepe her, Pſal. 34. 7.

Secondly, it is not ſaid that hee offered vp the Saints prayers, but he offered vp Incenſe with their prayers. It accompanied the Saints prayers, verſe 4. and the ſmoake of the Incenſe aſcended vp with the prayers of the Saints. Chriſts Spirit goeth with the prayers of the Saints, like Incenſe, and the vehemencie thereof (teaching vsus to pray with groanes that cannot bee expreſſed, Rom. 8.) is like ſmoke aſcending vp before God; or the Incenſe is Chriſts own interceſſion, & the ſmoake the efficacie thereof accompanying the Saints prayers vntounto God: for when wee pray, he then prayeth for vsus.

Thirdly, moſt of the Papiſts which doe write vponupon this Text, doe hold this Angell to be Chriſt. Peter Bullenger, Thom. Aquin. Rich. de Sancto victore, Haymo, Dion. Carthuſ. Viegas, and many other. This is nothing then for Angels praying for vsus.

p. 194Dan. 8. 15. When I Daniel had ſeene the viſion, &c. and chap. 9. 20, 21. while I was ſpeaking in Prayer, &c.

Anſw. 1. The former Text ſpeakes nothing at all, of any Angels praying: but of the Angels inſtructing Daniel at Gods commandement, chap. 8. 16, 17. This was alſo a viſion in a deepe ſleepe, verſe 18. From whence Doctrines of Faith are not to be concluded, but ſoundly to be taught from the literall ſenſe of other holy Scriptures.

II. The latter Text ſheweth, that Daniel praying to God, chap. 9. 20. the Angell of the Lord was ſent to him, verſe 21. but no mention of any prayer made by the Angell for him.

Whether Angels pray for vsus, the Scripture teacheth not. If wee yeeld that they doe, it followes not that we ſhould pray toSee D. White his laſt booke, in anſwer to Luk. 15. 10. pag. 315, 316. to 1. Cor. 4. 9. pag. 317.Luke 15:101 Cor 4:9 them. The Angels are ſent out by God for vsus, they are often with vsus, they are helpers, and by comming and going at Gods bidding, they doe know our affaires here. But ſhould wee therefore pray to them? it is a part of Gods worſhip: and Angels themſelues, as before is proued, forbid to be worſhipped.

II. Scriptures obiected to proue that Saints departed know, what is here done on earth, anſwered.

Luk. 16. 29. They hauehave Moſes and the Prophets, let them heare them.

Anſw. 1. It is a Parable, and a thing ſuppoſed onelyonly, not a literall Hiſtory. For after the very letter, ſome things in this Parable cannot be true; and therefore they cannot hence conclude a Doctrine, as out of a Hiſtorie. If this place will ſerue for Saints knowledge, from Abraham; how can the Papiſts looke on this Text, hindring the people from the Scripture? When firſt Abraham exhorts to the hearing of Moſes and the Prophets. Secondly, denyeth the ſending of the dead to inſtruct, as Papiſts hauehave beene inſtructed for their feigned Purgatorie. Thirdly, he affirmeth that they which will not heare the Scriptures written by Moſes and the Prophets, will not beleeue ſuch as riſe from the dead. Thus he confirmeth the authoritie of the Scriptures, againſt wandring viſions & apparitions.

p. 195Secondly, the Papiſts ſay, that before Chriſts Aſcenſion, Abraham and the reſt of the Patriarks were in the place called Limbus patrum. How could Abraham know what was done in Earth, when he was in the priſon? Perhaps by enquirie made of other Soules, which came thither, how the Church did, and what other meanes of inſtruction ſhe had, then when hee liued on the earth?

Thirdly, if but ſo: what is this to proue that Saints then, and ſo now, doe know eueryevery mans eſtate particularly, and what paſſeth here vponupon earth?

Ioh. 5. 45. There is one that accuſeth you, euen Moſes.

Anſw. 1. By Moſes is not meant his perſon, but his writings among them, as the verſes 46. and 47. doe declare.

Secondly, it is abſurd to make the Saints in Heauen accuſers. Papiſts will hauehave them Interceſſors, whoſe propertie is not to accuſe in any ſort, but to pray for them, which pray to them.

Thirdly, Chriſt ſaith, they truſt in Moſes. Will a Saint in heauen bee ſo diſpleaſed with them, and ſo faile them that truſt in him, that hee will goe and accuſe them vntounto God? Such then become miſerable Patrons. Doth their Legend afford any ſuch examples?

Fourthly, Chriſts ſaying that they truſted in Moſes, muſt not be vnderſtood of his perſon: but of his writings. For the Iewes did not beleeue in man. A curſe, as is before deliuered, they knew to be pronounced againſt them, which truſted in man.

Reu. 12. 10. The accuſer of the brethren is caſt downe, which accuſed them before God day and night.

Anſw. In the former, they make Moſes an accuſer of ſome; and ſo in that reſpect, a companion with the diuell heere. Is not this a wiſe Gagger? But how can they proue hence, that Saints in Heauen know what is done here? Becauſe the diuell knowes what euils are here done. A goodly reaſon. But doe not wee know, that the Diuell is here on earth; that hee compaſſeth the earth to and fro? Hee ſtirres vp Dauid to number the people; hee is author of much miſchiefe: hee muſt then know many things. And will it hence follow therefore, p. 196that ſoules which remaine continually in heauen, muſt know what is here done in earth?

2. King. 6. 12. Eliſha telleth, what words the King of Syria ſpake, being farre from him. So 2. King. 5. 26. Eliſha ſaw what paſſed between Naaman and Gehezi, 1. Cor. 12. Saint Paul was rapt vp into the third Heauen, Act. 7. Steuen in earth, ſaw Chriſt in heauen.

Anſw. 1. Theſe places tell vsus, that theſe things were ſo. Let them bring vsus Scriptures which will affirme as much of the ſoules in heauen, heere ſeeing things in earth, and we will beleeue. But this theſe places proue not.

Secondly, theſe were extraordinarie reuelations, and giuegive no warrant of ordinarie knowledge. In ſuch things, from extraordinarie acts to ordinarie, is no ſound arguing. For the Prophets did not know all things. Eliſha knew not the cauſe of the Shunamites comming, 2. King. 4. 27. nor Samuel, when he went to leſſe his houſe, whom God would chuſe, 1. Sam. 16. 6.

Thirdly, all theſe are inſtances of knowledge, in men on earth, of things done on earth; or of things which being on earth, they ſaw in heauen: but not a word, what thoſe in heauen ſaw here vponupon earth; which is the onelyonly point in queſtion.

The Gagger quoteth moe places, As Mat. 19. 28. But this is nothing to purpoſe. And the place is meant of all, appearing before Chriſt, at the laſt day, whom the Apoſtles ſhall then ſee.

Reu. 2. 26. 1. Here is a promiſe, accompliſhed in Chriſt,See D. White his laſt booke, p 309. 310, 311, 312. in anſwer to this; as alſo to Reu. 3. 12. 1. Cor. 13. 9. & 5. 10. not cited by the Gagger.Rev 3:121 Cor 13:91 Cor 5:10 Pſal. 2. in whom the Saints hauehave this power. See Auguſtine, Beda, and many other, cited by Fulke on this place, for this ſenſe.

Secondly, this is to bee vnderſtood of the Saints power ouer thoſe out of the Church. For here they are to bee ruled with a rodde of iron, and to be broken in pieces. But the Saints departed Papiſts make Protectors of others, and not breakers of them to ſhiuers.

Act. 5. 3. This was an extraordinarie manifeſtation of Ananias his hypocriſie to Peter. If they can proue, that God doth p. 197reueale mens actions here, to Saints in Heauen, wee yeeld.

1. Sam. 28. 14. Here is the Diuell appearing in Samuelt likeneſſe: what hence this Gagger will gather for Saints knowledge in heauen, I know not.

III. Scriptures obiected, that Saints departed doe pray for vsus particularly, anſwered.

Reu. 5. 8. The 24. Elders fell downe before the Lambe, hauing eueryevery one of them Harps, and golden Ʋials, full of odours, which are the prayers of the Saints.

Anſw. 1. This was in a viſion and traunce, and the words allegoricall, and therefore cannot bee the ground of Doctrine of faith.

Secondly, here is not meant the Saints departed; but theſe foure and twenty are the type of the whole Church here on earth, verſe 10.

Thirdly, theſe prayers of the Saints (which Saints are on earth, chap. 8. 3.) may be the prayers of the foure and twenty Elders themſelues: yet called the prayers of the Saints, as if they were the prayers of others.

Firſt, for that theſe repreſent the whole Church, verſe 9. which conſiſts of Saints.

Secondly, becauſe a Church or Congregation of people gathered together, pray not onelyonly for themſelues, but for all the Saints of God; and ſo their hearts here being as Vials, full of the grace of Prayer, as it were odours, are eſteemed the prayers of all Saints.

Fourthly, Tho. Aquinas, Rich. de Sco. Ʋictore, Haymo, Beda, and other, doe expound this place of the Church militant.

2. Mach. 15. 14. Then Onias anſwered, &c. Where he telleth how Ieremy prayed for the people.

Anſw. 1. This is an Apocryphal Booke.

Secondly, this ſpeech of Onias touching Ieremies praying, was but Iudas his dreame. For it is ſaid in verſe 11. that he told the ſouldiers al this, as his dreame, to encourage them to fight. It is weake architecture to build vponupon a dreame, doctrines of faith.

p. 198Thirdly, neither did Iudas much regard the helpe of Ieremies prayer. For in the ſame Chapter, hee himſelfe did pray, verſe 21, 22, 23. but intreated not Ieremy to pray for him, but made his ſuite onelyonly to God.

Ier. 15. 1. Though Moſes and Samuel ſtood before me, &c.

Anſw. 1. Theſe words are ſpoken onelyonly by way of ſuppoſition, as if God had ſaid, If Moſes and Samuel were now before mee, as they were, when they liued on earth, praying for theſe people, I ſhould not regard them. Is it good reaſoning from a ſuppoſitiue ſpeech, to a reall act indeed?

Secondly, they themſelues ſay, that all the Fathers that were before Chriſt, were in Limbus Patrum, and ſo could not know our affaires in particular to pray for vsus.

Baruch 3. 4. Heare now the prayers of the dead Iſraelites.

Anſw. 1. This booke is Apocryphal.

Secondly, were not theſe in the place, called Limbus Patrum? How could they then ſee all things in the face of God, from whoſe preſence they were kept?

Thirdly, heere is mention of the prayers of dead Iſraelites: but not for whom they prayed. It is not ſaid, they prayed for others on earth. They might pray for themſelues in Limbo.

Fourthly, by dead Iſraelites, are not here to bee vnderſtood ſuch as were departed this life, but ſuch as were accounted as dead, as going downe to the graue; for ſo Baruch ſpeakes to Iſrael, verſe 9, 11. And hee ſpeakes of ſuch dead Iſraelites and their children, which had ſinned before God, and had not hearkened to him, verſe 4. expreſſing their deſerts worthy death. Doe men aliue, requeſting God to heare for them the prayers of the dead, vſe to moue God with telling of the Saints ſinnes, and their rebellion againſt him? Is this a Romiſh prayer, Heare, Lord, the prayers of the dead for mee, for they hauehave ſinned againſt thee? Will any be ſo madde, to alledge ſuch a reaſon? Therefore Baruch makes confeſſion of the liuing Iſraelites, being then through diſtreſſe as dead men; and beggeth pardon for them, as followeth in verſe 5.

Fiftly, their Doway Annotation on this place is this; Men in ſinnes and miſeries are as if they were dead, verſe 11. yet by p. 199Gods mercy may receiue new grace of ſpirituall life. They then take theſe for men aliue, and not dead, as this fooliſh Gagger doth.

Reu. 2. 26, 27. This is anſwered before, and nothing concerneth the prayers of the Saints departed.

Luk 16. Diues in hell prayed for his brethren on earth: much more then will the Saints in heauen.

Anſw. 1. This is but a ſuppoſed ſpeech, a parable, and therefore nothing thence to be gathered, but as is intended in the ſcope of the Parable.

Secondly, if there bee ſuch all-knowing viſion, and allhelping charitie in Heauen, it is maruell that in all the Scripture, it ſhould no where as clearely be mentioned, as this charitie of one damned in hell.

Reuel. 6. 9, 10. And I ſaw vnderunder the Altar the ſoules, &c. and they cryed with a lowd voice, How long, Lord, holy, and true! doeſt thou not iudge and auenge our bloud, on them that dwell on the earth?

Anſw. 1. This was ſeene by Iohn in a viſion; and is not to bee interpreted according to the Letter, to eſtabliſh a doctrine of faith.

Secondly, though it be taken after the letter; yet here is no proofe that Saints pray for any in particular, but for the Church militant in generall.

Thirdly, their Prayer is not for other in the Church; they intercede not for other, but the requeſt they make, concerneth themſelues.

Fourthly, their cry is literally for iuſtice and reuenge vponupon their enemies, perſecutors, and ſheaders of their bloud. Doth mindfulneſſe of iniuries remaine in Saints departed? They then are leſſe charitable then Saints on earth. Steuen at his death prayed for his enemies. This place proueth not, that Saints departed pray particularly here for vsus on earth; but rather they pray againſt the enemies of the Church.

2. Pet. 1. 15. I will endeuour after my deceaſe to hauehave remembrance of theſe things.

Anſw. This is not meant by his interceſſion to God after p. 200death, but of his then preſent and diligent writing to them while he was aliue, whereby they might bee made to remember after his deceaſe, what hee had taught them by word of mouth or writing, while he liued.

1. King. 2. 13, 19. Adoniah had a ſuite to Solomon, and uſed the helpe of Bathſheba to him; Abſalom vſed Ioabs interceſſion, for him to Dauid, 2. Sam. 14. So ſhould we goe vntounto God by Saints, interceſſors for vsus.

Anſw. 1. Similitudes are for illuſtration, but doe not proue any thing, eſpecially thus detorted abſurdly.

Secondly, the caſe is not alike, as betweene man and man, ſo betweene God and vsus, in this caſe. Hee is God, and ſo eueryevery where, and not as man, circumſcribed in a place. To man wee cannot ſpeake when and where we would: but to God wee may, whoſe eyes and thoughts are not like to mans, Eſai. 55. Man, through pride, will not; or through careleſneſſe, regards not; or through ignorance, knowes not; or through buſineſſe, is hindered, ſo as hee cannot helpe ſuch as come for helpe: or his attendants about him, may keepe Petitioners from him, ſo as they cannot ſpeake to him. But there are no ſuch lets in God. The Simile therefore is not fit.

Thirdly, this is voluntarie humilitie, which cauſed the worſhip of Angels by certaine Heretikes, which the Apoſtle condemneth, Col. 2. 18.

Fourthly, wee need no Saints to goe to God for vsus: for wee hauehave appointed by God himſelfe, a Mediatour of interceſſion betweene God and vsus, his Sonne Ieſus Chriſt, by whom boldly with confidence, we may goe to God, Epheſ. 3. 12. Heb. 4. 16. & 10. 22. & 7. 25.

Fiftly, as for any to goe betweene Chriſt and vsus, wee neede it not: For he is the Head, and all wee the members of his bodie, as well thoſe in earth, as thoſe in heauen; wee here on earth, being as deare to him, as thoſe in heauen. Hee ſitteth in heauen to requeſt for vsus, and is a moſt mercifull High Prieſt, touched with our infirmities, Heb. 4. 15. Therefore hee tooke our nature vponupon him, Heb. 2. 16. to be a faithfull and mercifull High Prieſt, verſe 17. Steuen made no meanes to him, but p. 201prayed immediately to him, Act. 7. 59, 60. and ſo did Iohn, Reuelation 22. 20, 21. Chriſt willeth vsus himſelfe to come vntounto him, Math. 11. 28. And we reade not that any of the Apoſtles, or holy men, praying, mentioned in Scripture, did euer goe to Saint or Angell to make requeſt for them. Alſo, to anſwer the Simile: Is there any of vsus, hauing a great mans Command, in all our needs to come to himſelfe, giuing his faithfull word and promiſe to heare our ſuites & requeſts very readily at any time, and none appointed by him to heare ſuiters, when they come, but onelyonly himſelfe, attending mercifully in his owne perſon for vsus, in open place without let of any, that would goe firſt to any of his ſeruants, and not forthwith rather to himſelfe with all gladneſſe? I appeale to mens owne hearts in this.

Laſtly, this putting of Saints betweene Chriſt and vsus, is to make an Interceſſor, and to hold Saints departed (if wee were ſure they could heare vsus, which yet is very vncertaine) to bee more louing, more tenderly affected toward vsus, then Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe, who hath with his owne bloud bought both them and vsus.

Scriptures obiected, that wee may pray to God, to hauehave our Petitions granted in fauour and merit of Saints departed.

Exod. 32. 13. Remember Abraham, Iſaac, and Iſrael thy ſeruants, to whom thou ſwareſt, &c.

Anſw. 1. Here is no merit of Saints vrged.

Secondly, their perſons are mentioned by Moſes, not for their owne worthineſſe, but for the Couenant which by oath God confirmed to them; which Couenant Moſes vrgeth, & not their deſerts. For Moſes ſpeakes of Gods act to them, but not a ſyllable of any thing, that they either did, or ſpake; note it well.

2. Chron. 6. 16. Keepe with thy ſeruant Dauid my Father, that which thou haſt promiſed.

Anſw. 1. Here is no word, no worke of Dauid remembred, and therefore no merit of his vrged.

p. 202Secondly, that which Salomon alledgeth in his prayer, it Gods promiſe made vntounto Dauid. So in 2. Chro. 1. 9. in 1. Chro. 29. 18. Dauid prayeth to God in that title which hee would be named by, and by which he named himſelfe, Exo. 3. 6. So it is a calling vponupon God by his name, and not praying to him through the merits of Saints departed.

Exod. 20. 5. And ſhewing mercy vntounto thouſands of them that louelove me, and keepe my commandement.

Anſw. This is no whit for Saints prayer, but altogether againſt merit. For the Text ſaith, that to thoſe which louelove him and keepe his commandements, God will ſhew mercy. If they did merit, what need they or mercy? The Gagger ſaith, that God will here reward the merits of good men; when hee onelyonly ſaith he will ſhew mercy, and mentioneth no merit.

Pſal. 132. 1. Lord, remember Dauid, &c.

Anſw. 1. This Pſalme penned by Dauid, is a Prayer made by himſelfe for himſelfe, and ſo nothing to the point of controuerſie. Secondly, if penned by ſome other, after Dauids time; here, by Dauid, is meant Gods promiſe made vntounto Dauid, of which the Pſalmiſt maketh mention in verſe 11, 12, 17, 18.

Eſai. 63. 17. Returne for: thy ſeruants ſake.

Anſw. That is, for thy Couenants ſake, made vntounto thy ſeruants. So Pſal. 32. 10. For thy ſeruant Dauids ſake: that is, for the Couenant and promiſe ſake, made vntounto Dauid, as the Verſes 11, 12. following, ſhew; and not for the merit and interceſſion of Dauid. Alſo Dauid is here named, becauſe hee was an excellent type of Chriſt, who therefore is called by the Name of Dauid, Ier. 23. 5. and 30. 9. Ezech. 37. 24. Oſea 3. 4. So that if the words be taken for Dauid; then there is vnderſtood Gods promiſes, the perſon put for the Couenant made to him: but taken for him that Dauid typed out; then is it for Chriſt his ſake, conceiued in the name Dauid. And ſo the Text proues not prayer made to God, to be granted for the merits of Saints.