Plain Evidences the Church of England is Apostolical, Part · Response · Part 2
The ſecond Likelihood.
THeir way ſingled from all Churches agreeth ſo much with The ſecond Likelihood of the euil of their way.the Ancient Schiſmatickes, condemned in former ages, by holy and learned men.
This is ſet downe in my other Booke: and I ſhewed, firſt,The ſumme of that which is in my former what Ancient Schiſmatickes I meant: ſecondly, by way of preuention, I ſhewed the good things in thoſe Schiſmaticks, by which they were not inferiour, to theſe now, in any commendableBook touching this likelihood. Page 24. good in them. Thirdly, I noted wherin they were Schiſmaticks, not in their Hereſies, the fruit of their Shiſme, whereinto they after fell, but for ſeparating themſelues from true Churches, with condemnation for ſome corruptions, and holding themſelues the onelyonly pure Churches: So through pride, contention, and hatred of other men, without charitie, and meekneſſe of ſpirit they, as theſe doe now, vponupon the ſame cauſes, brake out from all Churches, and became Schiſmatickes. Herein hauehave I ſhewed that their Schiſme did ſtand in my former Booke.
Reply to Mr. Ainſworths Anſwere to this.
Page 155.Reply. THis Anſwerer, firſt ſaith, that I doe not name any agreement of them with the old Schiſmatikes, but that I doe onelyonly quote Mr. Gifford in the margent to proue it. This Doctor cannot ſee the wood for the trees, this which I hauehave ſaid may now ſhew it him. I cannot write againſt him a Booke, and finde him eyes too, to ſee into it. Was it his ignorance or careleſneſſe, or both? hee deſpiſed my labour, and therefore he ouerſaw, what others may ſee there plainly ſet downe. That which was firſt ſet downe by way of preuention, darkened his ſight, that he beheld not the reſt following, nor anſwered the firſt. Yet if he thinke that my reaſons proue them no Schiſmatickes, or that the Ancient Schiſmatickes were not ſuch, for the fore-named cauſes; let them, to cleare this point, ſet downe truely by the Word, what is properly a Schiſme in the Church: who are Shiſmatickes: wherein was the Schiſme of former Schiſmaticks: & why the Ancient Churches did condemne And us, Donatus, and others for Schiſmatickes. Epiphanius doth ſpeake otherwiſeHereſ. 70. much good of Andius, to be one vpright in life, in faith, and full of zeale towards God, and yet held a Schiſmaticke. So Optatus, ſpeaking of Donatiſts, ſaith; wee beleeue andLib. 3. teach the ſame things, we are baptiſed, and doe baptiſe after one ſort; yet for diuiding themſelues from other churches were Schiſmatikes: from whoſe iudgement I thus reaſon:
Thoſe, though otherwiſe neuer ſo godly, that ſeparate from Who are Schiſmatickes by the iudgement of ancient Churches.true Churches, like Nouatus and Lucifer, for a ſtricter courſe of diſcipline; like Donatus for ſome bad ones in the Church, as they ſuppoſed; like Andius for ſome leſſer corruptions & abuſes, they be Schiſmatickes. This is the iudgement of ancientBooke tranſl. page 35. Churches, for which ſee at large, Morneus, de Eccleſia.
But our late Separatiſts doe diuide themſelues from vsus vponupon like grounds: for a more ſtrickt diſcipline with Nouatus, and Lucifer; for that good and bad are mixed together, with Donatus; and from leſſer corruptions among vsus with Andius. Therefore are theſe alſo Schiſmatickes.
This is alſo learned Zanchius Iudgement, and Saint Auguſtines Zanch. lib. de Eccleſia.opinion is, that they who doe breake the bond of Fellowſhip are Schiſmatickes. Zanchie fetteth downe what aIn Eſai cap 2. ver. 3 pag. 119. 120. Schiſme is, where are Schiſmatickes, with the reaſons they pretend, as iuſt cauſes of ſeparation, and thus hee writeth:
There is (ſaith he) a departing and falling away in Charitie, and the Simbols of Charitie, that is, in the receiuing of the Sacraments, partaking of publike Prayers, in the collection of the Almes of the Church, and other ſuch like Eccleſiaſticall exerciſes; to wit, when any man, albeit he doth agree with the reſt of the Church of Chriſt, in the chiefe heads of Chriſtian doctrine, neuertheleſſe I know not for what light cauſes (ſaith hee) hee with-draweth himſelfe from the reſt of the Church, will not communicate with it in the Sacraments. Such are called (ſaith he) by a proper word, Schiſmaticks, and ſuch a departure What Schiſme is.Schiſme, as one ſhould ſay, a cutting off, foreign: for that they cut in ſunder the vnitie of the Church, by this their departing, and as alſo, ſaith Auguſtine, vnderunder the colour of faith, they breake in ſunder the bond of fellowſhip.
The cauſes (ſaith hee) which Schiſmatickes pretend when Page. 121. 122. Fiue cauſes pretended for Separation by Schiſmaticks.they with-draw themſelues from the communion of the Church, are fiue: Some difference in doctrine; varietie of Ceremonies and Rites; ſome vices of the Miniſters; the more lewd life of them that liue in the Church; and the comming of all ſorts, hand ouer head, to the Supper of the Lord: all which he proueth to be no lawfull cauſes to forſake a Church of Chriſt, from the page 122. to 133. And leſt any ſhould obiect the want of Eccleſiaſticall diſcipline in a Church to be a ſufficient cauſe to make a Separation, in Page 224. he ſaith:
Though Princes and Magiſtrates will not let Eccleſiaſticall diſcipline be reſtored into the Churches vnderunder them, yet may not we forſake that Church for that cauſe: Reade this worthy learned man: hee may giuegive any man, not wilfully fore-ſtalled, ſufficient ſatisfaction; hee doth not onelyonly giuegive barely his iudgement, but ſets downe his reaſons, and anſweres obiections. For this ſee alſo Caluins iudgement in his Inſtitutions. lib. 4. and on Pſal 26. 5.
Anſwere. Secondly, for Anſwere, Mr. Ainſworth ſaith, that this Likelihood is an obiection of the Papiſts; and looke what wee can ſay for our ſelues againſt the Papiſts in this Point, the ſame alſo will as well, if not better, cleare them againſt vsus.
Reply. This Anſwerer ſaith of mee, page 163. that I make a woeful Obiection, and am rather to be pittied, then anſwered in my idle (as hee ſuppoſeth) Repetitions: for which, hee ſome two or three times taxeth mee, but by an vtter miſtaking. Would not any thinke that hee ſhould be free of that which hee condemneth in another? and yet what he iudgeth in me lamentable, in him is pittifully miſerable. Hee is altogether idle in often obiecting the Papiſts to vsus, before, now here, and after in the next anſwere of his: and as friuolous, as idle. Is this a good Reaſon, the Papiſts hold vsus Schiſmatickes, but falſely; therefore may not we account them Schiſmatickes, and that truely? The Reaſon is good (ſaith hee) for that they are not more truely condemned of vsus for Schiſmatickes, then wee be ſo iudged by the Papiſts: becauſe our defence againſt the Papiſts, is the ſame for them againſt vsus. How vaine is this mans imagination, to thinke that wee can ſay nothing for our departing from the Romiſh Sinagogue of Sathan, but that the ſame will cleare them as well, if not better, for ſeparating from vsus. A pittifull Doctor truely, that belieueth and teacheth his Schollers in this ſort. But let him know, and all his aſſociats, that wee forſake not the Church of Rome, for that they are not in a true Conſtitution, or for externall Gouernement, We forſake not Rome for the ſame cauſes, for which the Separatiſts doe forſake vsus.ſimply conſidered, or for ſome light Ceremonies, or for ſet Prayer, and for the Church maintenance by Tithes, or for commixture of bad with good, or for defects of a Church not fundamentall, or for corruptions of a leſſe nature, as theſe men doe from vsus, without all warrant from the word: Except they will with Mr. Smith, expound the old Teſtament after his phantaſie, and ſo become Anabaptiſts.
But we leaue (as the Leuites did the ten Tribes in Ieroboams Why we depart from the Church of Rome.time) the Church of Rome: firſt, becauſe the head of that Church, is the very grand Antichriſt, the man of ſin. Secondly, becauſe it hath a falſe word, for Canon of faith; their forged vnwritten verities, and humane traditions, equalized with the holy Scriptures. Thirdly, becauſe they hauehave not, neyther doe allow the Word of God ſo much as to be read in a knowne tongue, or to be had priuately ſo in the peoples hands. Fourthly, becauſe they make Eccleſiaſticall Lawes, and impoſe them as the diuine pleaſure and will of God, vponupon mens conſciences, to be done, as true worſhip to God. Fiftly, becauſe they hauehave many falſe Sacraments. Sixtly, becauſe they do commit groſſe Idolatry to ſtocks and ſtones, their worſhip is all in an vnknown tongue. Seauenthly, becauſe they do teach moſt damnable Hereſies, as neceſſarie doctrines of faith and ſaluation, of which ſee for many Doctor Willets Sinopſis, and for one and twentie ſpecials in Mr. Parkins Reformed Catholike. Not one of theſe in our Church, but all of them, are deteſted in word and deed, as all of the Diuell, and his grand Sonne, the man of ſinne, Antichriſt, and are all euidently and plainely condemned of vsus, as being againſt Gods word in the old and new Teſtament.
Now (Mr. Ainſworth) if theſe will as well, or better, cleare you from Schiſmaticall Separating from them, as they doe vsus, in iuſt Separating from them, then muſt you prooue theſe ſelfe ſame to be in our Churches, for whichMr. Ainſworth, an intollerable abuſer of the Church of England, except he can prooue what he ſaith. you ſo depart from vsus, els hauehave you in this your anſwere ſpoken very vnaduiſedly, I might truely, ſay, moſt ſlaunderouſly. If you attempt to make the ſeely Creatures miſled by you, to beleeue that either theſe or the like in equall Euill, is in our Church maintained and practiſed, thereby to maintaine your Separation, as lawfull from vsus, as ours is from Rome, you are worthy of that which you deſerue.
Thirdly, and laſtly in his Anſwere, as he fooliſhly would cleare himſelfe from Schiſme, by our Chuches departure from Rome: ſo would he make me a Schiſmaticke in the Church of England. He blameth me in his firſt Fore-ſpeech, as one rather offenſiue to others, then defenſiue for our ſelues, and what is he (iudge Reader) in his Anſwere to theſe Probabilities? doth hee cleare himſelfe from Schiſme? or doth hee not onelyonly rather ſeeke to make others as bad as himſelfe? Hee is a miſerable Phyſition, that would ſucke out like corruption (if any ſuch were) from others, as he and his are infected with all, to cure themſelues. What if our Church were in Schiſme, and my ſelfe a Schiſmaticke? to finde vsus out to be like himſelfe, is hee and his the leſſe ſinfull? but the follie of ſuch Reaſoning in this Doctour is before diſcouered.
Touching the Couenant pretended, ſo he calleh it, becauſe he vnderſtandeth, that it was not for them: thus may I ſay: Mr. Smith taught, that a true Church ſhould make aWe are a people in couenant with God, and hauehave renued our couenant alſo. couenant with God, and when they fall, renew the ſame againe: he denyed vsus ſo to hauehave done, but I ſhewed the contrary. As firſt, that we had couenanted all of vsus by Baptiſme, when we were thereby receiued into the Church. This couenant, after we were come to yeares of diſcretion, and admitted to the other Sacrament, we did renew, and ſtill ſo do, at that time, which is manifeſt from the order eſtabliſhedThe Booke of Common praier ſetteth downe an orderly and an Apoſtolicall proceeding to receiue the Lords Supper. in the Adminiſtration of the Lords Supper; wherein three things are performed. Firſt, an Exhortation is made by the Miniſter, to the Congregation to repent of ſinne, to bewaile their eſtate: if any hauehave done amiſſe in any thing, he forewarneth them not to come to that holy Table. Secondly, the Miniſter inuiteth the repentant, whoſe properties he ſetteth downe, and how they ought to come: Namely, firſt, with true and earneſt Repentance towards God: ſecondly, with louelove and Charitie towards their neighbours: thirdly, with an intent to lead a new life, following the commandements of Almightie God: & fourthly, with a purpoſe from thence forth to walke in his holy wayes. Thirdly after al this, the people freely do offer themſelues and do make a generall Confeſſion voluntarily, with one voyce & conſent: in which, they firſt do confeſſe their ſinne: ſecondly, craue pardon: thirdly profeſſe amendement, with a deſire to continue in well doing euer after; whence I thus Reaſon:
The Churches which voluntarily, after admonition giuen, The reaſon framed to proue our Couenant renued with God.doe come, and make open confeſsion of ſin, craue pardon; promiſe amendment euer after: they doe viſibly renew their couenant with God.
I ſay viſibly, for who at that time can iudge the heart, but God alone? And what is the renuing of the CouenantWhat is the renuing of the couenant. with God, but this? viz. the acknowledgement of ſinne after the offence committed, crauing of pardon, and promiſing amendement? the performance of the thing after, is the declaration of the truth thereof, which for the preſent is not ſeene.
But our Pariſh Churches, both hauehave done, and doe ſo, euen as often as they doe receiue the Lords Supper.
The Proofe of this is our common practiſe, ſet downe in the Common prayer Booke.
And therefore our Pariſh Churches, hauehave reneued their Couenant with God. And then theſe of the Separation for want of this, cannot condemne vsus: as I did ſhew at the receiuing of the Sacrament, vponupon the occaſion afore named: and this is that couenant pretended, ſaith he, and not intended, ſay I, at all to further them; whatſoeuer ſome ignorantly, other maliciouſly, hauehave imagined to the contrary. I expounded the words of the Booke, declared plainly our former practiſe, and our preſent purpoſe to be a Renuing of our couenant with God. Which Mr. Smith not perceiuing and denying, did take aduantage to leade away the people, which by the manifeſting of this couenant with an earneſt Exhortation thereupon, I endeuoured to preuent, as it hath ſo rightly fallen out, ſince then:
Some will peraduenture obiect and ſay:
Obiection. Obection 1. That the Miniſter doth ſpeake the words.
Anſwere. Anſwer. And ſo doe the people after the Miniſter, and doe ſay thereunto, Amen: which is a conſent to what the Miniſter ſpeakes; alſo the Miniſter is their mouth vntounto God in Prayer, Eſdr. 9. as he is Gods mouth to them in Preaching.
Obiection. Obiection 2. That is made in generall of all, & not in particular of eueryevery one, with particular mention of their ſins.
Anſwer. Anſwer. 1. A generall Confeſſion of a particular perſon is acceptable, as Dauids was, then much more the generall Confeſſion of a whole Congregation. 2. Let them ſhew an example of a whole Church together making particular Confeſſion of the ſinnes of particular perſons, or any commandement ſo to doe in the Churches, in the renuing of their couenant with God.
Obiection. Obiection. 3. Perhaps they will ſay, that all this is done in our Aſſemblies vponupon a Booke.
Anſwer. Anſwer. 1. The Miniſter reads vponupon a Booke, but the people receiue his words by voice into their mindes, and from their inward apprehenſion giuegive conſent to the Miniſter confeſſing, praying and promiſing for them, and they for themſelues, by ſaying the words and anſwering Amen. 2. Though it be in part from a Booke, this maketh it not, either to be no Confeſſion, Prayer, and Promiſe, or falſe, ſo it be with vnderſtanding, agreable to the word of God, for the matter, and done from the heart. 3. To the people it is all one to heare their Miniſter pray from the Booke, as from his brayne. For it is the matter agreeing to the words rightly conceaued, and in heart affected, which maketh the thing to be approoued of God, and not words vttered by the Miniſters mouth, from either his owne inuention, or a Booke by the Churches appointment.
Obiection. Obiection. 4. And laſtly, If exception be taken but againſt this, becauſe it's in part from a Booke:
Anſwere. Then the thing is granted which now wee plead for: But a diſpute riſeth only about the manner of doing, which is not now the point in hand here, neither needed to bee diſputed vponupon.
To conclude this with Mr. Ainſworth, his alledging of Canons, is as his and their quoting of Scriptures, brought out to condemne others, but proue directly againſt themſelues. For Mr. Ainſworth and his Company ſeparate themſelues from the Communion of Saints: he and they combine in a new brother-hood: hee and they account the Chriſtians, who are conformable to the Doctrine, Gouernment &c. of the Church of England, to be prophane and vnmeet to be ioyned with in Chriſtian Profeſſion, ſo doe not wee here that remaine with our Mother the Church of England.
A Reply to Mr. Smiths Anſwere to this ſecond Likelihood or Probabilitie.
MAſter Smith frameth my Argument thus: They that Mr. Smiths anſwere, page 126.in ſome things agree with ancient Heretiques and Schiſmatickes, are Heretiques and Schiſmatickes.
The Seperatiſts do agree in ſome things with ancient Heretiques and Schiſmatickes. Therefore they are ſuch, &c.
Reply. Making this my reaſon: his anſwere is, that thus might he proue me an Heretique and Schiſmaticke, becauſe Heretiques & Schiſmaticks hauehave held the doctrine of the Dietie, Trinitie, the fall of Adam: in which things I doe with them agree.
And by this Argument may Mr. Smith proue himſelfe a Iew, a Turke, a Papiſt, a Browniſt, an Hereticke: for in ſome things hee agreeth with them all, and with Arrians and Familiſts his next neighbours in his Anabaptiſme. The Argument hee reiects as vaine and light, and ſo doe I; if it be vaine as it is, let the vaine framer of it take it to himſelfe, mine it is not. This ſecond likelihood I thus forme: whereto let him anſwere.
They that differ from all the beſt Reformed Churches of A likelihood framed into the forme of reaſoning, to proue them probably to be Schiſmatickes.Chriſt, and in that difference agree with, and walk in the ſteps of ancient Schiſmatickes, it is very likely they be Schiſmaticks.
But the Separatiſts differ from all the beſt reformed churches, and in that difference agree with, and walke in the ſteps of ancient Schiſmatickes. Ergo, it is very probable they of the Separation be Schiſmatickes. The firſt part needeth no proofe: their ſo walking can be no leſſe then a Probabilitie. The Minor is euident: firſt, that they differ from Reformed Churches, and ſecondly, in that Separation are agreeable to the Ancient Schiſmatickes, as is before declared in this Reply to Mr. Ainſworth: and therefore the Concluſion followes neceſſarily.