Plain Evidences the Church of England is Apostolical, Part · Response · Part 9

Plain Evidences the Church of England is Apostolical · Part · Response · Part 9

p. 290The ninth Errour of the Browniſts.

THey ſay that all our Miniſters are falſe Miniſters.

That this is an Errour in them, I hauehave in part ſhewed in my former Booke, Page 128. as I there vnderſtood it, to wit, of ſuch as are ſent of God, and are admitted and ſet ouer congregations according to the truth, and true meaning of our Lawes, and the Booke of Ordination: and ſo let my minde be taken, that I need no more to make mention of my meaning, though the words of my Reaſons, be in generall tearmes: and therefore thus I proceed to prooue ſuch Miniſters to be lawfull Miniſters of Chriſt, and his Church.

The firſt Argument.

THE Miniſters of the Church of England, are either The firſt Argument, to proue our Miniſters true Miniſters.Chriſts, or Antichriſts: For in the new Teſtament p. 291this diſtinction may comprehend all Miniſters, as of and vnderunder one of theſe two; and thoſe that be Chriſts Miniſters, are true Miniſters; and thoſe that be Antichriſts, are the falſe Miniſters: But the Miniſters of the Church of England are not Antichriſts Miniſters.

Reaſon. 1 Firſt, becauſe they be againſt him in doctrine, and by oath Our Miniſters are not Antichriſtian.to the Supremacie hauehave renounced him: and ſo doe continue preaching againſt him. Their doctrine from Scripture is their calling of God to witneſſe their departure from him: their oath the beſt outward tryall of truth in man, and their Preaching an open publication to all men of their faith againſt Antichriſt, what can be further required? now this is done by many, and may be witneſſed by thouſands.

Reaſon. 2 Secondly, becauſe they doe ſhew no obedience vntounto Antichriſt. Obedience is a marke of a ſeruant. Rom. 6. 16. Iohn. 8. 34. 2 Pet. 2. 19. Now they be not in bondage vntounto Antichriſt, whoſe tyrannous authoritie with his lawes, as farre as they be iudged contrarie to Gods lawes, are by our Church aboliſhed.

Reaſon 3 Thirdly, it is apparant they be none of his, becauſe Antichriſt himſelfe diſclaimeth them, not onelyonly as none of his, but as no Miniſters at all, condemning them as Heretiques, forbidding to heare vsus; and if hee can get vsus into his Beariſh paw, hee is by fire and fagot ready to deuoure vsus, as lamentable experience of his cruelty doth manifeſt. If wee were of him hee would louelove vsus; for the world doth louelove her owne. Iohn. 15. 19. and the Diuell is more polliticke then to be diuided againſt himſelfe, for then could not his kingdome endure.

Reaſon. 4 Fourthly, becauſe Antichriſts Miniſters are ſacrificing and maſſing Prieſts, and are to that end ordayned; but ſo are none of our Miniſters. Here let not theſe Snatchers catch at the name Prieſt, which it pleaſeth the Church to let remaine in Eccleſiaſticall lawes ſtill, as being of ancient vſe, and comming of Preſbiter, as ſome thinke, ſignifying an Elder; or of Proeſti, whence the Latine praeeſt, ſignifying one ſet ouer: ſo a Prieſt by the Etymon of the word, is an Elder, ſet ouer p. 292other. In it ſelfe then it is a word of honour, by which alſo the elect of God are called, and by Chriſt therevnto aduanced. Reu. 1. 6. The Papiſts vnderſtand it in the abuſe, wee take it not in their ſenſe, our Churches meaning is well knowne both by Law and practiſe: it is therefore childiſh to contend about a word or name, when the matter is out of queſtion; and yet theſe men doe not more often vſe any name then this, to make people beleeue, that wee are Popiſh Prieſts. and to bring vsus into contempt with the credulous vulgars, and ſuch as be of their owne ſtampe. Therefore I conclude, wee being no Ministers of Antichriſt, we then be the Miniſters of Chriſt.

The ſecond Argument.

PAſtours and Teachers are Chriſts true Miniſters: forThe ſecond Argument, to proue our Miniſters true Miniſters. foreign. theſe be reckoned vp among the reſt, as ſent of Chriſt. Eph. 4. 11.

But the Miniſters of the Church of England are Paſtors and teachers. A Paſtour is a tearme taken from Shepheards: ſo then it is for Chriſts Miniſter to play the good ſhepheard, as our Sauiour calleth himſelfe. Iohn. 10. Now this is in keeping, feeding, and gouerning his flocke, as Beza noteth vponupon Act. 20. 28. The word Teacher is one that is qualified withforeign. gifts and vnderſtanding or ought ſo to be, Iohn. 3. 10. who inſtructeth them that lacke diſcretion, and are vnlearned. Rom. 2. 20. Now ſuch hauehave wee, thus exerciſed in all theſe things: What proofe ſhould I make of this? Is not the thing knowne to all, ſo as herein needeth no more to be ſaid, except all the perſons ſhould be named, and ſo inquirie be made after them, which if theſe men, credulous in eueryevery conceit to themſelues, but incredulous of euident truths among vsus, will not beleeue, let them take paines to goe eueryevery where and ſee, if they want not eyes to beholde the ſame. And therefore are theſe true Miniſters of Chriſt.

p. 293The third Argument.

THe Miniſters called and ſent of God, and of his Church, The third argument, to proue our Miniſters true Miniſters.are true Ministers; this is vndeniable, and graunted of all. But Miniſters of the Church of England are called and ſent of God, and of his Church.

Firſt, they are called and ſent of God, which calling andCalled and ſent of God, & how. ſending of God, is the preparing of men with gifts and graces, to be able to execute in ſome meaſure, the office whereunto hee doth appoint them. Thus Eſay ſhewes his Commiſſion from God, by the ſpirit of the Lord vponupon him, that is, the gifts and graces therof. Eſay 61. 1. Thus the Lord declareth his ſending and calling of Bezaleel and Aholiab, by giuing them gifts of his ſpirit for the performance of their charge. Exod. 31. 2. 3. So our Sauiour did call his Apoſtles, and gaue them a power, Mat. 10. 1. to accompliſh that which he did charge them to doe. verſe. 5. 7. 8 In like manner before hee ſent them vponupon their vniuerſall Commiſſion, hee did ſpeake of thoſe things which concerned the kingdome of God. Acts. 1. 2. Luke. 24. 44. then he opened their vnderſtandings to vnderſtand the Scriptures: ver. 45. then he promiſeth them power from aboue: verſe 49. which was the power of the holy Ghoſt, Acts. 1. 8. for which they were to wayte a time: Luke. 24. verſe. 49. then hee bleſſed them: verſe. 50. He breathed on them, to receiue the holy Ghoſt, Iohn. 20. 22. which according to his promiſe came vponupon them viſibly. Act. 2. 4. And thus were they furniſhed, and did proceed on to execute their great charge impoſed vponupon them. Thus wee ſee what is Gods calling; I ſpeake not hereA preuention. of extraordinarie, though the inſtance be from the Apoſtles, as if all ſhould be ſo furniſhed now, and in that manner, but the purpoſe of my ſpeach is, to ſhew hereby that God doth ſend none, but hee qualifieth them with gifts, extraordinarie perſons with extraordinary gifts, by an extraordinary meanes, or without meanes; but ordinary men with ordinary p. 294gifts, by a common meanes, giuing them naturall gifts; by the holy ſcriptures, grace & by ſtudy, learning, but he ſends none, but thus either the one way or other he doth qualifie them for their vocation. Now it is manifeſt to all Chriſtendome, that we hauehave men worthily qualified with gifts both of Nature, Art and Grace, and ſuch therefore ſent of God. Which furniſhing with gifts maketh a man fit matter for the Miniſterie, and Gods ſpirit mouing him to deſire to imploy that way the ſame gift, is as it were the internall forme of a Miniſter, or Gods ordination by the impoſition of the hand of his ſpirit vponupon that partie for the Miniſterie, to whom nothing wants but the viſible calling of the Church: and thus we ſee the calling of God.

Secondly, they be called and ſent of Chriſts Church, forCalled and ſent of his Church. that the Church of England who hath called them, is the church of Chriſt: this is at large before proued. And therefore Miniſters of the Church of England are true Miniſters.

The fourth Argument.

MIniſters, that hauehave what the Apoſtle requireth to the The fourth Argument, to proue our Miniſters true Miniſters.making of true Miniſters, they be true Miniſters. For the Apoſtle deſcribeth a true Miniſter of the Goſpell, and ſheweth what a one hee ought to be, 1 Tim. 3. Tit. 1. and elſe where in his Epiſtles.

But Miniſters of the Church of England hauehave thoſe things Many of our Miniſters hauehave thoſe things which are required in a Miniſter of chriſt. Firſt, Abilitie to teach. Secondly, a deſire to imploy their gifts for the Churches good: with Graces.that the Apoſtle requireth to the making of true Miniſters. This I will manifeſt in particulars.

Firſt, hee requireth abilitie to teach others, 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim 3. 2. abilitie to exhort: abilitie to conuince gainſayers of ſound truths. Tit. 1. 9. Now ſuch hauehave we, who by word and writing manifeſt this before God and man.

Secondly, the Apoſtle requireth a deſire in men furniſhed with gifts, to beſtow their talents that way to the Churches good, 1 Tim. 3. 1. And alſo graces, holy vertues, to adorne their profeſſion, 1 Tim. 3. 2. Tit. 1. 6. 7. 8. & 2. 7. And ſuch p. 295hauehave we, men who hauehave entred with deſire to beſtow the benefit of their gifts vponupon the Church, before any other calling, and many there be of vnblameable conuerſation. For the truth of this I appeale to their owne conſciences, which will, if they be not cauterized, accuſe them of great impietie, if they dare deny this. To nominate perſons is full of inconueniences, I therefore omit them. If I ſhould nominate the dead, who liuing were godly men, and members of our Church, famous for learning, and no leſſe for pietie, the Separatiſts would ſay, they proue not that wee hauehave now ſuch. To which I anſwere, that God being the ſame, the Church no worſe the meanes all one, why may they thinke the ſame graces to be now denyed, which before were beſtowed?

Thirdly, the Apoſtle, and other pen-men of the holyThirdly, Preſentation, Probation, Election, ordination. Ghoſt, doe ſhew that there is required in the preſent entrance into the Miniſterie, theſe things: Preſentation, Act. 1. 23. and 6. 6. Election, or choiſe out of thoſe that be preſented, Act. 1. 24. and 6. 3. 5. and 14. 23. Probation, or tryall of the parties gifts and graces, 1 Tim. 3. 10. And ordination, Titus 1. 5. Act. 14. 23. with impoſition of hands, 1 Tim. 4. 14. Act. 6. 6. and Prayer, Act. 13. 3. And this order is obſerued of vsus. None come to the Miniſterie but they be preſented, and choſen; yea, by the booke of ordination are to be carefully examined, and are ordained with impoſition of hands. Thus wee ſee in the ſubſtance, there is nothing in any point wanting, in making of Miniſters by our lawes, which the word of God doth require. The exceptions they take are about circumſtances onelyonly, and in ſome manner of doing, which doe not make an nullitie, or a falſitie of the deed done. Though ſome Patrones doe preſent partially, ſome Miniſters enter by Simonie, and others deale corruptly, they hauehave therein no defence or colour by Law, which vtterly condemneth (well agreeing to Gods word) all by-reſpects in preſenting, and all iuggling tricks eueryevery way.

Obiection. Obiect. But they will ſay, the people ought to chooſe their Miniſters, Act. 1. and 6. and 14. 23.

Anſwere. Anſ. Theſe places indeed teſtifie that ſuch examples of p. 296practiſe thereof were then, but there is no precept for the perpetuitie of it. Againe ſuch elections of the people were euer when the Apoſtles were among them, and not els, as the very places ſhew. Furthermore, the people were very iudicious, and were able to make a choiſe then it ſeemeth, whereas it is now farre otherwiſe with many. Laſtly, in all theſe places we doe ſee indeed an Election among the people, but the people did not aſſume it as a right of themſelues, but vponupon the Apoſtles exhortation, and a graunt vntounto them, for the time the people made the choiſe. Read, and ſee whether theſe things be not ſo. Indeed I confeſſe a double euill to be in the chooſing, when either an ignorant bad people be left to doe, without wiſe guides, what they liſt; or a Muck-wormly Patrone is ſuffered for hope of greedy gaine to tyrannize ouer Gods people, to ſet ouer them at his wicked pleaſure either an ignorant fellow, or a lewd wretch, when many of the people being of good vnderſtanding doe deſire better.

Touching Biſhops and Archbiſhops, I ſay, firſt, with Beza: Againſt D. Sarania. Page 111. Page 120.If the reformed Churches of England doe continue vnderpropped with the authoritie of Biſhops and Arch-biſhops, let her truely enioy this bleſſing of God, as they doe imitate the examples of the old holy Biſhops, and if they endeauour as much as they can, to reforme the houſe of God, according to the rule of Gods word, wee may obey them, and honour them with all reuerence. Caluin to Sadol.Secondly, I ſay with Caluin, if there ſhall be brought vntounto vsus an Hierarchie, wherein the Biſhops ſhall ſo rule, as that they refuſe not to ſubmit themſelues to Christ, that they ſo depend vponupon him, as their onelyonly head, and that they be knit together by no other rule then by the truth. Then ſurely, if there ſhall be any that ſhall not ſubmit themſelues to the Hierarchie reuerently, and with the greateſt obedience that may be: I confeſſe them worthy of ſeuere puniſhment. Many learned men hauehave ſtood for their callings, as iuſtifiable, but with Caueats touching corruptions, for which, condemnation lighteth vponupon the perſon, and not vponupon the place.

Fourthly and laſtly, the Apoſtle requireth of Miniſters,Fourthly, diligence in Preaching. &c. as alſo Chriſt commandeth, Mat. 28. 18. that they feed p. 297the flocke, Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 2. that they preach diligently, &c. 2. Tim. 4. 2. And many ſuch hauehave wee in many places, bleſſed be God, and bleſſed be the meanes, and vpholders of the ſame. And thus things being true, I conclude, that therefore theſe Miniſters of the Church of England, be true Miniſters.

The fift Argument.

IF ſound Doctrine be the tryall of true Miniſters, then hauehave The fift Argument to proue our Miniſters true Miniſters.we true Miniſters: who doe preach the truths of God, the iudicious Hearers of many can witneſſe the ſame, and the extant labours of many publiſhed after the preaching of the ſame, may confirme this.

Obiection. Obiect. If it be ſaid, they preach not all the truths of God, and they preach ſome-time errour alſo.

Anſwere. Anſw. I anſwere: firſt, let ſuch Objectours inſtance particulars if they can, wherein they omit any truth, and wherein they teach an Errour, and thereafter ſhall they receiue anſwere. Secondly, all truths to all are not reuealed at once, it is enough that they do publiſh the truth to them knowne, as it ſhall be held fit; for not all truths knowne neither, are to be publiſhed at once: Our Sauiour taught what his Diſciples could beare, Iohn 16. 12. and not eueryevery thing at once; and Saint Paul gaue firſt milke, and after ſtrong meate. 1. Cor. 3. And for particular erring in ſome things, who is ſo perfect, as not to ſay hee doth erre in ſomething? for if a miniſter could not be a true Miniſter for doctrine, becauſe he erreth in ſomething, then M^r. Smith, M^r. Ainſworth, and all the reſt of that way are no true Miniſters; for we doe condemne them for falſe doctrine, and one of them doth condemne another reciprocally, and if therefore they will beleeue either vsus or themſelues, if this ſhould be true, they be no true Miniſters; therefore though there be ſome errours of the leaſt ſort, which either ſtrike not at the very roote of Religion, or the maine branches p. 298of it, at the foundation or maine pillars of the ſame: they are neuertheleſſe true Miniſters.

But ſound Doctrine is the triall of a true Miniſter. 1. Tim. 4. 6. Ier. 23. 22: in which Ieremie doth ſhew what Prophets God ſent not, ſuch as ſtood not in his counſels, nor declared his words: and therefore on the contrary, ſuch as doe ſtand in his counſell, and declare his words, are ſent of God. Therefore hauehave we true Miniſters of Chriſt.

The ſixt Argument.

THey that hauehave Gods ordinarie and daily aſſiſtance in their The ſixt Argument to proue vsus true Miniſters. M^r. Iohnſons words in his Booke againſt the hearing of our Miniſters. Page 2. 1. King. 22. 21.1 Kgs 22:21Miniſterie, are his Miniſters; and ſo to be approued as true Miniſters, being called by the Church: for God works by and in his owne Miniſterie, and doth not aſſiſt falſe miniſters ordinarily, and daily, if he doe extraordinarily at all. For the ſpirit of Sathan is in the mouthes of falſe Prophets; and he hath promiſed onelyonly to be with ſuch as hee ſendeth, vntounto the end of the world. Mat. 28. 20. Now therefore with whom hee is, they muſt needes be iudged to be ſent of him, and approued by him.

But Miniſters of the Church of England, hauehave an ordinarie and daily aſſiſtance of God in their miniſterie. Gods aſſiſtance appeareth in his effectuall working mens conuerſion by them: for conuerſion is by the word 1 Cor. 4. 15. Ro. 1. 16. through the Spirit, and not by word deliuered without1 Cor. 3. 5. 6. 2 Cor. 3. 5.1 Cor 3:51 Cor 3:62 Cor 3:5 the Spirit, and it is not in man to moue the heart to grace; God doth take the power of conuerſion to himſelf, Deu. 30. 6. Acts 16. 14. the meanes is the word. Iam. 1. 18. Examples hereof wee hauehave through out the Acts of the Apoſtles. Therefore if men be here conuerted, God doth ayd the Miniſters, and is with them, by the power of his ſpirit in that worke. 2. Cor. 3. 3. by which the Apoſtle proueth, to hauehave the power of the ſpirit in his Miniſterie, by the conuerſion of his hearers.

Obiection. Obiect. But it may be (ſome will ſay) none are conuerted: as M^r. Ainſworth doth, page 180.

p. 299Anſwere. Anſ. I ſhall fully, by Gods grace, anſwere this, when I come to refute him therein: in the meane ſpace let it be but granted, that I may proceed to the next part of this minor to be proued, to wit, that this aſſiſtance is alſo ordinarie and daily. Ordinarie, for that the meanes are ordinarie; the perſons or inſtruments by whom God works, are ordinarie alſo, and it is done in an ordinarie place, in a Church reformed, and in an ordinarie time, and therefore cannot be held extraordinarie any way. That it is daily, the euidence hereof is in particular men leauing their naturall courſe to returne vntounto God, of which, inſtances may be giuen from time to time. Therefore the Miniſters of the Church of England are Gods Miniſters, & ſo true Miniſters.

Obiection. Obiect. But by this ſome may gather (but vntruly) that therefore ſuch as reclaime men from euill wayes, are onelyonly true Miniſters.

Anſwere. Anſ. I anſwere ſuch a Cauiller, that the ſcope is to proue that God is with theſe; not that therefore he is wholy from other: againe this is but one reaſon, but there be moe beſides, which are ſufficient to proue a lawfull Miniſterie: and laſtly, Ezechiel the Lords Prophet ſhall goe to the people from God, and God be with him in the truth, though not in the peoples harts to win them by that truth: hee may ſaue his ſoule, though hee cannot ſaue others, Ezech. 2. 3. 4. and 33. 9. So the example of Noah and Lot, doe ſhew the ſame.

Now by this ſixt Argument it may appeare, how corrupt a Booke that of M^r. Iohnſons is, the Title whereof is; Certaine Reaſons and Arguments prouing (but very weakely)Publiſhed Anno 1608. that it is not lawfull to heare, or hauehave any communion with the preſent Miniſterie of the Church of England. For with whom God keepes communion, whom hee doth ſtand by, aide, and countenance, their communion is to be kept of man; thoſe perſons men may heare and ioyne vntounto, helpe and countenance: but, as wee heare, the Lord ſo doth to Miniſters of the Church of England, & that is viſibly manifeſted by the effects of his Spirit, who workes by p. 300them. And therefore communion may be kept with them, contrarie to his Aſſertion in that Booke; the reaſons there giuen might be eaſily made for vsus, and ſo nothing againſt vsus but in ſhew, if it be conſidered what, firſt, be the ſubſtantiallWhat to be obſerued cautelouſſy by the Reader, in reading M. Iohnſons Booke. parts of the Miniſterie; the true word, the true Sacraments, true prayer, kept ſubſtantially ſound: ſecondly, that the adminiſtration be onelyonly that word, thoſe onelyonly Sacraments, and that prayer be made to God onelyonly, in the onelyonly Name of Chriſt, according to the patterne of true prayer, in the meaſure of grace, & truth that God ſhall giuegive: thirdly, that the perſons whom they diſclaime vnderunder the names of Prelates, Prieſts and Deacons, be conſidered as not oppoſite to the names of Paſtours, Teachers, Elders and Deacons, mentioned in the Scriptures, Prelates as in diſdaine they tearme them, being ruling Elders for Gouernment, Paſtours and Teachers, for their inſtructing of the people: Alſo many of the Prieſts (as they ſcornefully name them) being Paſtours and Teachers alſo; the Deacons being many of them agreeable to the Apoſtles diſcription, 1. Tim. 3. 9. fourthly; that the things they finde fault with, be but of circumſtances not of ſubſtance, of the manner of doing and not of the thing to be done, the reaſons (I ſay) may in many of them be good for vsus; & the Booke of no force to with-draw any from vsus. And let the Reader conſider but this, how idle hee is in the very beginning page 3. 4. 5. in which he ſtands to proue that wee are no Apoſtles, Prophets, Euangeliſts; as if wee held any ſuch thing: here he flouriſheth with his quotations, and doth tryumph in a battell with himſelfe: but by ſuch a courſe, in which he goeth about to proue vsus to hauehave no true Miniſterie, hee may as well ſo make no Church of God in the world to hauehave a true Miniſterie; then what is become of M^r. Iohnſon? hee ſhould be found alſo, an non eſt inuentus, in the Records of Chriſts true Miniſterie

Againe note, in his endeuour to proue vsus no Apoſtles, Prophets, nor Euangeliſts; he ſetteth himſelfe to the taske roundly, but when hee commeth to that which is more p. 301materiall, to ſpeake of Paſtors and Teachers, then as a Foxe hee makes a traine, and prefaceth his Reader to delude him, Page 6. and ſaith before hee ſpeake of this, for further clearing, and better diſcerning of our ſtate, hee muſt make obſeruations. Who ſeeth not here his deceit, and how that it is not eaſie to diſcern ſuch a difference of our Miniſtery from that hee pretends to finde out in the Scripture, diſagreeing from it? The other callings are plainely different, if theſe had beene ſo, why doth hee fetch about ſo before hee doe come to the matter, his preface being nothing to the matter, but to preiudicate his Reader. But that I intend not, and I hope I neede not, others I truſt, are willing to vndertake the ſame, his labour might be manifeſt to be but a flowriſhing ſhew. But thus much occaſionally I note by the way, hauing already two aduerſaries, enough and too many to deale with at once, being alſo otherwiſe charged with more neceſſary duties for the good of Gods people.

The ſeauenth Argument.

The ſeauenth Argument, to proue our Miniſters true Miniſters.THey that hauehave the true Properties of true Shepheards, are Chriſts true Miniſters. I need not proue this.Wee hauehave true properties of true ſhepherds. 1. Propertie. Iohn. 10.John 10

But Miniſters of the Church of England hauehave the true properties of true Shepheards. Iohn. 10. Firſt, theſe goe in by the doore. verſe. 2. that is, by Ieſus Chriſt: verſe 7. by his call and the Churches, which I hauehave proued at large.

Secondly, the Porter openeth vntounto them. ver. 3. By the Porter2. Propertie. (ſaith **Page 101.M. Smith, but very ridiculouſly) is meant the whole Church: which is againſt himſelfe, and againſt common reaſon; ſo hath his new wayes intoxicated his braines: for hee ſaith but two lines before, that the doore is in the Church, and now the Porter is the Church: the firſt is an vnproper ſpeaking, for the doore to let into the houſe, is not in the houſe, but at the ſide of the houſe, and a Porter at the doore of the houſe, in no reaſon can be the whole houſe. Men loſe very reaſon by Gods iuſt iudgement, when they be p. 302madded by their owne fantaſies in religion. The Porter therefore inuiſibly letting men into the Church by Chriſt the doore, is Gods ſpirit, who doth qualifie true Miniſters with gifts and graces, and is forcible by them to win people, and viſibly the Porter is the authoritie committed by the Church vntounto ſome for admitting men into the houſe, the church of God: And this is a ſenſible expoſition according to cuſtome with vsus now, & then in Iudea; from which the ſpeech is borrowed.

Thirdly, they call their owne ſheepe by name; verſe 3. that3. Propertie. is, they take notice of their people, of their growth in religion, and doe abide with them, diligently watching ouer their flockes; as by law and faithfull promiſe made in the open Congregation they be bound in their ordination.

Fourthly, they lead them forth, verſe 3. that is, from Paſture4. Propertie. to paſture, from milke, the grounds of Religion, to ſtrong meate: catechiſing and otherwiſe interpreting the holy Scriptures vntounto them.

Obiection: Obiect. But ſome people are bad ſaith M^r. Smith.M^r. Smiths obiection to the third Reaſon. Anſwere.

Anſw. What then? doth not the Miniſter therefore his office? The Rider leadeth his Horſe to water, though he drinke not when he is at it. Ezechiel leadeth out the people, though the wicked who follow not, do periſh. His weak anſwering herein, and M. Ainſworths paſſing ouer this tenth of Iohn, ſheweth that it is ſo ſtrong a holde for vsus, that they cannot ouerthrow it.

Obiection. Obiect. But M. Smith further denyeth this, becauſe wee ſpeake (ſaith hee) againſt Browniſme, &c. as if that were truth, and ſo wee ſhould not lead them forth in the truth.

Anſwere. Anſw. But how little affinitie Browniſme hath with the truth, hath beene, and is manifeſt, euen by Mr. Smiths owne mouth, in his new Anabaptiſme condemning the ſame.

Fiftly, they goe before their flockes; verſe 4. that is, in godly5 Property. conuerſation: M. Smith denyeth this, becauſe ſaith hee, godlineſſe is not in a falſe Church, Miniſtery, &c. This obiection we ſee is but his fantaſie, ſo to think of our Church, p. 303Miniſterie, &c. Therefore are theſe Miniſters of the Church of England, true Miniſters. It is then wickedneſſe to them, to apply this Scripture, Iohn 10. againſt vsus, and thereby call vsus theeues and robbers, and it is impudent bold hardineſſe in M. Smith, to ſay hereupon, that hee dare (marke Reader his words) in the true feare of the Lord, call the beſt of vsus all a Page. 101.ſpirituall Theefe and a Robber; yea, a Wolfe that commeth to rob and to deſtroy. The man is at libertie to raile, and to ſpeake euill, but the Lord doth rebuke him.

Reply vntounto Mr. Ainſworths Anſwere to this ninth Errour.

NOw I come to M. Ainſworths Anſwere to my former Booke, in which, as now more at large in this, I ſpeake of the gifts, calling, &c. of our Miniſters ſo qualified.

Obiection. Obiect. To this he maketh this anſwere, that it is a boaſting Page 186.as Papiſts and Anabaptiſts will doe, &c.

Anſwere. Anſ. I anſwere his imputation of boaſting is but a fruit of his owne vanitie, who in their way of ſingularitie by an ouer-weening of themſelues, doe meaſure vntounto vsus, what abundantly flowes from themſelues. The Papiſts (ſaith hee) doe obiect ſuch things, but doe they, or can they ſo truely obiect them to vsus, as wee by the warrant of the word, can obiect them to theſe men? if not, his caſting the Papiſts boaſting vponupon vsus, is idle: hee doth diſlike the Anabaptiſts boaſting; out of that let them liuely ſee their owne Picture, bone of their bone, and fleſh of their fleſh, as naturall children, liuely ſprung from their immediate Parents. For the grounds of the Browniſts, Schiſmatically Separating from vsus, are the Anabaptiſts foundation, on which they built their hereticall brotherhood. But I come to the particulars, which in my other booke hee doth except againſt.

Obiection. Obiect. Firſt, he denieth that qualification with good gifts is Page 186.a proofe of a lawfull Miniſter.

p. 304Anſwere. Anſw. To which I anſwere that by diſmembring what I hauehave conioyned, he doth but deceiue the Reader: for thisM. Ainſwroth doth ſeuer deceitfully what I conioyne together. reaſon with the reſt together, reckoned vp in my former Booke, and whereof I hauehave now in this alſo before largely ſpoken, doe ſhew and proue who is a true Miniſter. Hee vſeth in the beginning this deceit with his Reader, as I hauehave noted in my reply to his anſwere vntounto my Probabilities. I neuer dreamed that one qualified with gifts for the Miniſtery was a Miniſter, but that qualification making him fit matter, and declaring his calling by God, if the Churches calling be added thereunto, and his office performed faithfully, then is hee a true Miniſter of Chriſt Let this his ſetting a ſunder of the particular branches of my whole reaſon be noted, that hee lead thee not from that truth, which I auouch.

Obiection. Obiect. Secondly, hee excepteth againſt our Miniſters Page 187.calling, and his ground is, becauſe (ſaith hee) our Church is not a true Church.

Anſwere. An. But wee ſee this his condemning of our Church to be altogether from his imagination, and now alſo proued to be flat againſt the euident truth: his ſandy ground hath made his building weake. Touching his other queſtions, I refer him for reſolution, to the practiſe of our Church, the Lawes, and Conſtitutions therof, as alſo to the ſtatutes and ordinances of our nation, by which hee may be inſtructed and receiue ſatisfaction to his ſcoffing demands, and for further information he may read the bookes of diuers who hauehave written at large of the ſame.

Thirdly, whereas I hauehave auouched in my former Booke, that there be many Miniſters, Preachers in & of the Church of England, who doe preach the true doctrine of Chriſt, adminiſter onelyonly his Sacraments, performe their office faithfully, liue conſcionably, and hauehave Gods gracious aſſiſtance in their miniſterie to the benefit of many, &c.

Obiection. Obiect. He ſaith, theſe be faire words, &c. as but barely affirmed without proofe.

Anſwere. Anſ. Surely, I muſt confeſſe, that I had not though p. 305any of them ſo farre voide of ſhame to denie this truth. Is it poſſible that ſuch as pretend ſuch a care to maintaine truth, ſhould ſo hood-wincke themſelues, as they dare ſo impudently deny this truth, euidently ſhining among vsus, the beams whereof ſpread forth vntounto all the reformed Churches in Chriſtendome? But how would hee diſproue my ſpeech? forſooth, for that there be ſome careleſſe of teaching among vsus, and of looſe life, (whoſe amendement or remouall I heartily wiſh,) and for that ſome be dumb and cannot preach; a thing greatly to be lamented. But how doth this ouerthrow what I ſay of many others, where did hee learne to conclude thus, where ſome are bad, all are nought; where ſome cannot preach, there none can preach? and yet this is his manner of reaſoning, if hee did frame his ſuperfluitie of words into a more ſolide reaſoning, as the vnderſtanding Reader may well ſee. Hee ſhewes a gibing and mocking ſpirit, in ſpeaking of our ordinarie prayers, wherein he takes pleaſure, it ſeemeth, to hauehave vsus in diriſion, but as he doth it prophanely, ſo alſo hee writeth of vsus lyingly: for mentioning only ſuch things, as be appointed in common & daily prayer, as occaſions fall out, hee ſaith, that this is enough for Prieſts (ſo hee in contempt doth tearme vsus) to doe in the Country Pariſhes: and yet hee omitteth to reckon the reading of the holy Scriptures, which is appointed by the ſame Booke: likewiſe hee may ſee that eueryevery Miniſter vponupon paine of ſuſpenſion, is to Catechiſe his people eueryevery Lords day, and eueryevery one that can, is to preach alſo eueryevery Lords day, by our late Eccleſiaſticall conſtitutions, and therefore it is vntrue which hee ſaith, that the bare reading of ordinary prayers is enough. They profeſſe a louelove vntounto the truth, & yet dare againſt truth belie the church of God, & their mother.

Obiection. Obiect. Fourthly, hee ſayth, that my ſpeaking of Miniſters Page 189.conuerting ſoules, is but a vaine boaſting. His reaſons be: Firſt, becauſe of our (as hee ſaith) diſordered and idolatrous eſtate, &c.

Anſwere. Anſ. I anſwere, firſt, this is more then he hath proued, hee barely ſaith it, but giueth no reaſon, as was meete in ſo p. 306grieuous an accuſation of a whole Church. Is it true that wee be Idolatrous, becauſe M. Ainſworth ſaith ſo? when his words are a diuine and an vnerring Oracle, hee may be beleeued: till then, his words are herein, but as winde. Secondly, I anſwere, that therefore by his reaſon, it is more likely that our Miniſters here ſhould conuert ſome, becauſe many are bad, for if all were good, there were no matter to worke vponupon. If hee meane that all are Idolatrous, and diſorderly, all lamentably ignorant and prophane, hee is as impious in himſelfe for ſo thinking, as ill conceited of vsus.

Obiection. Obiect. Secondly, he would proue our conuerting of ſome to be but a vaine boaſting, becauſe ſuch as be conuerted are (as hee ſaith) Infidels before, and yet are members of our Church, which how it can ſtand with the rules of Gods word, hath (as hee confeſſeth) neuer yet beene ſhewed.

Anſwere. An. Well therfore, I will ſhew: firſt, that here is conuerſion in the Church, and ſecondly, that yet ſuch ſo conuerted, were not before that conuerſion Infidels.

The firſt I thus proue: If men in our Church formerlyThere is true conuerſion in our Church. prophane and irreligious in many things, hauehave viſibly forſaking that lewd courſe, by no compulſarie law of man, but by an inward feare of God wrought by Gods word preached,Many of the latter ſort departed from vsus. as themſelues hauehave confeſſed, then hauehave ſuch men beene conuerted, and ſo a true conuerſion wrought in our Church by the Miniſterie of the word. The latter will not be denyed, if the former be proued: for what is a mans viſible conuerſion, but an outward confeſſion of ſorrow for ſinne, a leauing of the ſame, and an endeuour to doe well voluntarily, after the good pleaſure of God, manifeſted vntounto him? Prou. 28. 13. Mat. 3. 6. Luke 15. 18. 21 24. But ſuch a conuerſion hath beene, and is daily wrought in our Church, and the inſtances are infinite. For proofe of this, I referre him vntounto many thouſands now with vsus, who will auouch thus much, and I alſo appeale to the hearts and conſciences of ſuch of themſelues as are departed from vsus. Did they not here leaue off to doe wickedly, as nature firſt led them? did they not reioyce in the word, which p. 307before they careleſly neglected? did they not ſuffer mocks of others, once like themſelues, for not ſtill running to the ſame exceſſe of ryot, as in times before? And did they notEzech. 18. 30.Ezek 18:30 out of compaſſion to others, ſeeke as they were commanded, the ſoules ſafetie of others? and all this by the word, and voluntary ſubiecting of themſelues vntounto the ſame; God, Angels, and their owne conſciences doe witneſſe this to be true, if they dare denie it. But I hope better of ſome, who I truſt (at the length) will ſee our Church to be a true Church, and returne, as ſome hauehave done to their mother againe, or at the leaſt will reforme their opinions, vntounto the godly iudgements of the reformed Churches, as they hold of vsus, and louingly conſent with vsus, that God may ſhew them merciemercy in this their great ſchiſme, and gricuous rending of Gods Church, to the hinderance of the Goſpell, and the great aduantage of the enemies thereof.Men conuerted in our Church, were not before Infidels.

The ſecond point, viz. that ſuch ſo conuerted are no Infidels before, I manifeſt, firſt, by diſtinction, for there is a double conuerſion, the firſt is primarily the profeſſion of Chriſt, and before this are men Infidels, and not of the Church of Chriſt viſibly; ſo were the Romanes, Corinthians, Epheſians and the reſt conuerted from Gentiliſme to Chriſtianitie: the other is ſecondarily to ſanctification of life, and this is of members in the Church, who are not borne in perſonall holineſſe, but are brought to a godly conuerſation by the word in their appointed time. And thus is the word to conuert or returne vſed in Scripture, and vnderſtood of ſuch, as be members of the true Church, though lewd and very wicked before their change of life. Eſai. 6. 10. and 10. 21. Iere 31. 18. 19. Luk. 22. 32. and therefore this conuerſion doth not preſuppoſe infidelitie, as the not profeſſion of Chriſt doth. Secondly, If where conuerſion is, there muſt needs be alſo before infidelitie, then when men doe ſall to Idolatrie from God, and be brought backe againe, that is, be conuerted; then muſt there be a rebaptiſation; for Infidels are to be baptiſed. This man, M^r. Ainſworth and M^r. Iohnſon alſo, doth acknowledge a conuerſion p. 308now from Antichriſtianiſme, are therefore all ſuch before Infidels? then hath not M. Smith done ill to be againe baptiſed: for whoſoeuer in the ſcripture are called Infidels, are wholy without the Church, and muſt by baptiſme be admitted into the Church: hee vſeth to quote Scripture often, if he vſe but a word, or doe but allude vntounto a place of Scripture, why doth he not here quote Scripture to proue the vſe of the tearme Infidell? let him (if hee be able) ſhew that any by the Scriptures are called Infidels, who profeſſe the Name of Chriſt, though very lewd in life and conuerſation: if hee cannot, as I am ſure hee cannot, why doth he herein leaue the Scripture, and take vponupon him beſides and againſt Scripture, ſo to conclude as here he doth?

Two Scriptures I quoted in my former Booke Rom. 10.Page 129. Rom. 10. 14. 1. Cor. 9. 2.Rom 10:141 Cor 9:2 14. 15. and 1. Cor. 9. 2. joyntly with the other reaſons, to proue that theſe are true Miniſters, which finde the bleſſing of God vponupon their Miniſterie. The firſt place in the Romanes hee paſſeth ouer, as belike, not knowing well how to anſwere it, for that the holy Ghoſt there euidently telleth vsus, that ſuch Preachers which ſo preach, as people thereby doe heare, beleeue and call vponupon God, are ſent of God, and to be receiued with gladneſſe, whoſe feet are beautifull and doe bring glad tydings of peace and good things. But he falleth vponupon the ſecond Scripture taking or leauing as he beſt aduantageth himſelfe. But what is his anſwere?

Obiection. Obiect. Firſt (ſaith he) Apoſtles were ſent to conuert Heathen, and for this hee quoteth Scripture, to prooue that which no man maketh doubt of. But Paſtours are ſet (ſaith he) for to feed conuerted Christians: for this alſo hee hath his Scriptures which we doe not gainſay.

Anſwere. Anſw. But the Scriptures ſay not that Paſtors are to feed onelyonly conuerted Chriſtians, for who then ſhall feede ſuch little ones as are borne in the Church, and reclaime ſuch as fall to wickedneſſe in the Church to conuert them to ſanctification?

Obiection: Obiect. Secondly, ſaith he, The worke and ſeale of Paules Apoſtleſhip was ſeene in Corinth, by ſeparating the beleeuers p. 309from infidels, and gathering the ſaints onelyonly into the communion of the Church vnderunder the officers giuen by Christ.

Anſwere. Anſ. Marke here this mans anſwere, who firſt ſpeaketh not a word of the Apoſtles doctrine, as if ſeparation and the reſt had beene or could be before the power of his miniſtrie in conuerting them; belike ſeparation maketh men beleeuers. He is wondrouſly in louelove with this point of ſeparation, and would make his ſchollers belieue that it can do ſtrangely, make of Infidels belieuers without preaching the word before, elſe why omitteth hee to ſpeake of the Apoſtles preaching? for by this God wrought vponupon the people to make them his, before a ſeparation was made, or before they were called Saints and in Communion vnderunder Chriſts officers. Separation and gathering of the Saints is not conuerſion it ſelfe, but the fruit of conuerſion, and ſignes of men conuerted, the one ariſing from hate of wicked men, and the other from louelove to the godly, which are euer more or leſſe in men conuerted. If the Apoſtles worke and ſeale of his miniſterie was not before officers were ſet ouer the people, what, and whoſe worke was it to make Diſciples? as Chriſt commanded, Mat. 28. 18. and as they be called Act. 14. 20. 22. before they had Elders ſet ouer them, verſe. 23.

M^r. Ainſworth after this doth but repeat what I hauehave alledged and made anſwere before vntounto, and giuen reaſons thereof, page 129. to which hee could not anſwere, yet would hee make the ſame obiection againe. Belike hee thought men would read his anſwere without comparing it with my booke, indeed if ſo men doe, it were eaſie to carry away a cauſe, and much labour ſhould be ſpent in vaine, nothing ſaid, and much ſaid, yet neuer the neare to giuegive any man ſatisfation. He quoteth 2. Cor. 6. 14. &c, to proue that the worke and ſeale of Pauls Apoſtleſhip was ſeparation2. Cor. 6. 14.2 Cor 6:14 of beleeuers from Infidels; If the man were in his right minde and that the conceited excellencie of his ſeparation had not bewitched him, hee would neuer ſo abſurdly hauehave alledged the place to proue this point.

Firſt, the place neither mentioneth the Seale of his p. 310Miniſterie, as in 1 Cor. 9. 2. neither doth expound his meaning as doth 1 Cor. 4. 15. and 2 Cor. 3. 2. 3. 6.

Secondly, the place ſhewes not their ſeparation, but is an Exhortation from the fellowſhip of Infidels, whereby is manifeſt rather, their not whole ſeparation from Idolaters, as the place it ſelfe, the iudgement of Diuines thereon, and the exhortation in it owne nature doth plainely euince: the Apoſtle ſaith, be not vnequally yoked with Infidels, Ergo ſaith M^r. Ainſworth they had made a Separation. A ridiculous conſequent; by as good a reaſon wee may conclude that all gods people are come out of Babylon, becauſe Iohn (Reu. 18. 4) bad them to leaue Babylon; and that men are ſuch as they ſhould be, for that they are forbidden to be what they are: ſuch Doctrines would make a ſpeedy reformation, that we need not ſuch Schiſmaticall departures, neither hauehave wee by his Doctrine any wicked among vsus, for we hauehave exhorted, and doe ſtill dehort men from their prophaneneſſe of life and conuerſation, and then why maketh hee with his a ſeparation? Therefore ſithen by his conſequence from hence wee be ſeparated, as hee would conclude of me, ſo ſay I that M^r. Ainſworth is a falſe Doctor (as his workes ſhew) if he be any at all.

Hee ſkips ouer an Objection and an Anſwere, made concerning our Ordination by Byſhops, Page 142. and alſo the place of Iohn 10. Page 143. hee paſſeth by, and commeth with a ſleight anſwere vntounto that which I lay to their charge in making their Miniſters by merely lay men, and ſuch as are no Miniſters at all: my reaſons againſt that practiſe is layd downe in my former Booke, page. 144. 145. hee anſweres nothing particularly to the ſeuerall reaſons and Scriptures as hee ought, and as hee would, if hee could hauehave oppoſed the truth with any ſhew of truth, but the ſtreame runneth too cleare from the worlds beginning for him to throw in durt and not be ſeene; or to turne the force of ſuch a current, and hee not be drowned with reſiſtance, yet will hee blunder the water with his feet, and withſtand the ſtreame as well as hee may, and therefore hee p. 311ſaith, that becauſe I ſay that wee hauehave the calling of our Obiection. firſt Miniſters from out of the Church of the Papiſts, as that learned and renowned Mornai, doth in his Booke of the Church confeſſe alſo; therefore I teach a plaine Apoſtacie from the Goſpel vntounto Poperie. Anſwere. But the Argument followes not; for true Church is amongſt them, Reu. 18. 4. I then demaund, may not Gods truths and his ordinance receiued among the wicked, be carryed foorth from among them, and the ſame be acknowledged to be thence receiued, but we muſt needs thereby teach to goe backe againe vntounto them? The Babylonians tooke away the veſſels of the Lord, and afterward the Iewes receiued them againe, at the hands of ſuch as were wicked and Idolatrous, might they not receiue them, but muſt needs teach that therefore men muſt leaue Ieruſalem, and turne backe into Babylon? Doth not M^r. Ainſworth, know, that it is one thing to receiue once a good thing with corruptions ignorantly, and another thing hauing receiued that good and caſt off the corruptions, to returne againe, to receiue the good with corruptions, when there is no cauſe? Againe, I demaund whether the Apoſtacie of Antichriſt ouerſhadowing the Church of God, doth make a flat nullitie of all Gods truths, and his ordinances, ſo as they be no truths nor ordinances of God, becauſe the ſame paſſe by them, and for that we receiue them from them? If hee ſay no, then why doth he diſſallow our ordination abſolutely? If hee ſay yea, then are wee not baptiſed neither they themſelues, and ſo are no viſible Chriſtians receiued into the viſible Church by Baptiſme, for wee receiued our Baptiſme from them by ſucceſſion? If our Baptiſme muſt needs be held true, then why not ordination? What diſanulleth one ordinance of God more then an other? and if the holding of our receiuing the Miniſters calling from them, make them a true Church, what lets but the ſame may be concluded likewiſe from Baptiſme? and that more ſtrongly, ſithen Baptiſme being a viſible badge of the viſible Church of Chriſt, and the knitting of the members together, which p. 312are by the word wonne to the profeſſion of the faith?

To the retorted Argument of the Papiſts againſt vsus, which he doth bring, if what I hauehave ſaid do not content him, let him ſend to the firſt framer of the argument, who is ableDoct. Sutcliffe. enough to winde him out of this his ſuppoſed laborinth. For my part when I plead with a Papiſt, as I now doe with a Browniſt, hee ſhall ſee mee anſwere as I may, or if he had framed the Papiſts Reaſon from him, eyther to maintaine themſelues againſt vsus, or to ouerthrow vsus in what wee doe ſtand in againſt them, hee ſhould hauehave had a preſent Anſwere. To conclude this, Mr. Ainſworth hath not yet ouerthrowne my Reaſons made againſt their courſe in making of Miniſters, but that they doe ſtand as no Miniſters, being made ſo as no Scripture doth giuegive warrant, nor any practiſe of the like recorded in the word of God, from the worlds beginning. All hee hath ſaid againſt vsus to defend himſelfe, and his fellowes, is but his imagination of ſome ſuppoſed abſurdities that may follow thereupon; but if any abſurditie ſhould follow, yet the Argument is not diſſolued,

Touching Mr. Gyffords complaint of ſuch euils as are amongſt vsus; I anſwere, that albeit he hath iuſtly ſo lamented, yet his teſtimony will not proue what this Anſwerer doth bring it for; to wit, that we doe vainly boaſt of conuerſion, but indeed hauehave no effect of our Minſterie, let any marke, but why he bringeth in that record, and frameth it in an Argument, then the vanitie of this his allegation will there in appeare.

Reply to Mr. Smiths Arguments againſt our Miniſters.

MAſter Smith, as M. Ainſworth hath done, oppoſethPage 92. this truth, which I hold concerning the lawfulneſſe of our Miniſters: and would proue vsus all falſe Miniſters, his Arguments are theſe:

p. 313The firſt Argument.

THe true Miniſterie cannot be raiſed out of a falſe church. The Eccleſiaſticall Aſſemblyes of England are falſe Churches: Therefore the Ministers are falſe Miniſters.

Anſwere. I anſwere, that it is no Sillogiſme; for neyther part of the queſtion is in the Maior, but a changed tearme; for there is great difference betweene the word Miniſterie and Miniſters: he pretends Art, and ſhewes nothing leſſe: but this is his Logicke for poore ſeely Layicks, and good enough for them that would ouerthrow Vniuerſities. Againe, I deny the Maior; for firſt, why may not as well true Miniſters ariſe out of a falſe Church, as a falſe Miniſterie, Worſhip, and Gouernment ariſe out of a true Church, as himſelfe auoucheth?Page 14. Secondly, wee ſee by experience, that Luther, and other worthy Miniſters of Chriſt hauehave beene raiſed vp out of the Romiſh Church. Thirdly, againe I demand, why true Miniſters may not ariſe out of ſuch a Church, as well as true Baptiſme, or as Gods people being in it, and yet come out from it? If ſo much of Chriſtianitie doth remaine in the Antichriſtian Church, as maketh the people ſtill Gods people in the conſtitution of it at the firſt, which at length commethReu. 18.Rev 18 forth, then what letteth but ſo much of the true Miniſtery may remaine, as may alſo make ſuch as at length depart out of her, true Miniſters? eſpecially, if it be true which Mr. Smith ſaith, that what particulars I hauehave alledged,Page 99. for to approue our ſelues, the ſame are alſo in the popiſh Miniſters? But hee confirmeth his Maior by that which before bee deliuered touching Chriſts miniſteriall power giuen to the Congregation, and by that which he hath ſaid againſt ſucceſſion. Which proofes are before ouerthrowne, and ſo his Maior lyeth in the duſt: and if his reaſons were not refelled; yet are they very ridiculouſly alledged to proue his Maior, except hee can frame them better to it, then I ſee how: for thus his Maior dependeth vponupon his p. 314reaſons the calling of Miniſters is not by ſucceſſion, but from the body of the Congregation: Ergo, the true Miniſterie cannot be raiſed out of a falſe Church. Here againe, is Tinterton Steeple the cauſe of Goodwin ſands.

The Minor I deny alſo, for the Church of England is a true Church, as I hauehave before proued at large, and anſwered his reaſons, on which in his aſſumption here, hee onelyonly did relye, without any further proofe. But his ill ſhapen Argument doth well ſerue to be turned vponupon himſelfe thus. The true Miniſterie cannot be raiſed out of a falſe Church. But M. Smiths Anabaptiſticall Aſſemblie is a falſe Church: Therefore neither M. Smith, nor any els of that Aſſembly, is a true Miniſter. The Maior hee holds true: the Minor may be confirmed, becauſe (as he ſaith) a falſe BaptiſmeSee his Booke againſt M. Clifton. maketh a falſe Church, or ſuch are no Church which are not baptiſed: but hee, and thoſe which were baptiſed by him, are eyther falſely baptiſed, or not baptiſed at all. For firſt, they holde our Baptiſme as no baptiſme; and ſo in that reſpect are not baptiſed. Secondly, he ſaith, that true Baptiſme is when one baptiſed doth baptiſe another into theIn his anſwere to me, Page 91. line. 28. faith of Chriſt, capable of Baptiſme. Now hee did baptiſe, and was not baptiſed before, as hee acknowledgeth, and he did baptiſe others not capable of his Baptiſme, hauing receiued before a true Baptiſme, in matter the water, in forme the words of the inſtitution pronounced: now let him proue if he can, by the new Teſtament, that any ſo baptiſed as we be, or by the approbation of any Orthodoxall Church, that ſuch are to receiue Baptiſme againe: if hee cannot, then were they not capable of Baptiſme and ſo by his owne words are they not baptiſed. Thirdly, that baptiſing which the word doth not warrant, is a falſe baptiſing; for thus they doe reaſon in other things: for the word warranting an action, maketh it truely diuine in Gods worſhip. But firſt, M. Smith did baptiſe himſelfe contrary to the ſcripture (which commandeth one to baptiſe an other. Mat. 28. 18.) and contrary to all examples in Scripture, euen in Chriſt, Mat. 3. 3. neither can the like act be ſhewed to be p. 315done by any ſince Chriſt was borne: ſithen then his act being in the intendment of him diuine, and the truth thereof depending vponupon the Scripture, it being againſt the Scripture, without warrant of Chriſt, of his Apoſtles, or of any Chriſtian Church, it muſt needes then be a falſe baptiſing, with which all the reſt are polluted, as being the beginning of their Anabaptiſticall conſtitution, and by which all the other entred into baptiſme. Fourthly, their baptiſme is falſe, becauſe it wanteth the true forme; for they helde not theWitneſſe Ia. Wh. and other moe. words of Chriſts Commanding ſo to baptiſe, viz. in the name of the Father, the Sonne and the holy Ghoſt: now the formeMat. 28.Matt 28 being falſe, it cannot be true. And therefore wee may well ſee, that they be not a true Church: for hee ſaith, that a true Conſtitution and true Baptiſme are one▪ and ſo on the contraryIn his booke againſt M. Clifton. it muſt follow, that a falſe baptiſme makes a falſe conſtitution.

The ſecond Argument.

THe true Miniſterie hath a true office, in execution whereof M. Smiths ſecond argument againſt our Miniſters.it is exerciſed, Rom. 12. 7. 1 Cor. 12. 5. 28. Eph. 4. 11. The Miniſterie of the Eccleſiaſticall aſſemblies of England hauehave not a true office, in execution whereof it is exerciſed. Therefore the Ministery of the Eccleſiasticall aſſembly of England, is not the true Ministerie.

Anſwere. To let paſſe here how hee changeth the tearmes of the queſtion, putting Miniſterie for Miniſters: but I omit this & other childiſh points not to be ſtood vponupon, leauing them to acute ſcholers to ſee into and iudge of.

The Maior vnderſtood of Gods ordaining the Miniſterie, & wherein it ſhould be exerciſed, is true, but vnderſtood as it is exerciſed by men, who are ſubiect to erre, the Propoſition is not euer true; for Miniſters hauing a true office may yet not be euer exerciſed in the execution of the ſame through corruption, and yet for want of right execution it cannot be ſaid to be therefore no true office. Nadab and Abihu had p. 316true office, yet offered vp ſtrange fire, and for it was puniſhed, neuertheleſſe their office remained ſtill true. Againe this propoſition is abſurdly deliuered; for it is not a proper ſpeaking, to ſay the Miniſterie hath a true office; but the Miniſter, or Miniſters hauehave a true office. Hee ſpeaketh ſo, as if the Miniſterie & office of Miniſters were differing things, when they be all one. But as hee taketh authoritie to himſelfe to chaunge the adminiſtration of Baptiſme, ſo may he change right reaſoning, and true ſpeaking, for they holde that their ſpirits are not to be tyed. His Scriptures and Propoſition want ſome agreement, neither doth he truely define in his words a true Miniſterie from theſe places; but rather thus:

The true Miniſterie of Chriſt is an office, Rom. 12. 7. to be exerciſed extraordinarily by Apoſtles, Prophets, Euangeliſts, and ordinarily by Paſtours and Teachers, 1 Corinth. 12. 28. Eph. 4. 11. for the repayring of the Saints, and for the edifying of the bodie of Christ. Ephe. 14. 12. This is euident out of the words, and therefore for his Maior I denie it as a ſufficient diſcription of the Miniſterie.

The Minor I alſo deny; for wee hauehave a true office: to Preach the word of God, and to adminiſter the Sacraments of Chriſt, are the true office of Chriſts Miniſters, Mat. 28. 18. Ephe. 4. 12. but this is our office by the law of our land, by the booke of ordination, and is ſeene by our practiſe. Therefore wee hauehave a true office.

Obiection. Obiect. But he would proue the contrary by one onelyonly reaſon, which is, becauſe, ſaith he, the miniſterie of the Church of England doth ariſe out of the Miniſtery of the Church of Rome, and ſo, ſaith he, must needes be of the ſame nature.

Anſwere. Anſ. But this I denie, except that which commeth and ariſeth of another, be produced ſo one from another without any hindering cauſe, as that the one eſſentially doth make another, as his ſimilies, which hee bringeth doe declare, as light enflaming light, and a man begetting a child; thus things naturally ariſing one of another, muſt needes be of one nature: but it is not ſo with our Miniſterie, and p. 317the Miniſterie of the Church of Rome. Our Miniſterie aroſe not from the Romiſh Church, as from a voluntarie procreating cauſe, as hee abſurdly maketh a ſimilie of a father and his ſonne; but it aroſe from vnderunder the bondage of that Church, through Gods power retaining the good and leauing the euill thereof. Therefore that which ariſeth out of good amongſt corruptions, is not of the nature of the corruptions, but of the good ouerſhadowed with thoſe corruptions. Who knowes not that Gods people are in Babilon, and that they doe ariſe out of the Romiſh Church? doth it therefore follow that when they are riſen out of it, that they be of the ſame nature with it, becauſe they doe bring the good things with them there learned and receiued from vnderunder the corruptions?

Againe, he teacheth in this his Reaſon a groſſe Errour, for hee extendeth not our Miniſterie, and the orignall thereof, beyond the preſent Antichriſtian ſtate of the Now Church of Rome; but teacheth that there it had his firſt foundation, which is moſt vntrue: for our Miniſterie thus refined from the Popiſh Church, hath the beginning from before Antichriſt was hatched in the Romiſh Church: as may appeare by the Greeke Churches at this day, in which are Archbiſhops, Byſhops, and other inferiour officers ouer Pariſhionall Aſſemblies, and in which they hauehave read Prayer, and other like exerciſes of Religion with vsus; now theſe Churches are more ancient (at leaſt ſome of them) then the Church of Rome, and were before that Romane Antichriſt, and therefore our Miniſterie is for originalitie to be conſidered before the now Romiſh Church, though it did runne a time through it (as pure water from a pure fountaine may doe through a dirtie chanell for a while) till God gaue it a clearer iſſue. This being conſidered, his ſimilie from refining of Sugar, to be ſtill Sugar, is fit for vsus; for our Miniſterie being as Sugar, but heretofore full of droſſe, by refining it from the Romiſh Church, we hauehave it more pure, but not ſtill to be therefore of the droſſie corruption, as he would perſwade his Diſciples.

p. 318Laſtly, hee askes who can bring a cleane thing out of that which is vncleane? I anſwere, the Lord can; as hee brought light out of darkneſſe, and maketh him aliue by grace, who is dead in ſin. Alſo if the vncleane thing be not abſolutely vncleane, who need aske this queſtion: for out of that which is partly vncleane, and partly cleane; may a cleane thing be produced: now the Romiſh Church is not ſo vncleane, but there is ſome cleane things in it, as ſuch truths as wee doe hold and teach for the truths of God, by the warrant of the word. It is therefore no wonder, that any ſhould aske how cleane things may be brought from an vncleane thing, wherein cleane things are.

The third Argument.

THe true Miniſterie hath a true vocation and calling, by Election, approbation, and ordination of that faithfull people, M^r. Smiths third Argument againſt our Miniſters.where he is to adminiſter. The Miniſterie of the Eccleſiaſticall Aſſembly of England: hath not the true vocation and calling by Election, Approbation, and Ordination of a faithfull people, where they doe adminiſter: Therefore the Miniſters of the Eccleſiaſticall Aſſembly of England: is not the true Miniſterie.

Anſwere. The propoſition hee would confirme by certaineAct. 6. 2. 6. and 14. 23.Acts 6:2Acts 6:6Acts 14:23 Scriptures, Act. 6. 2. 6. & 14. 23. 1 Tim. 3. 10. and 4. 14. But theſe Scriptures doe not proue that the bodie of the Congregation, which here he calleth faithfull people, did ordaine and make their Miniſters. Nay Acts 6. and 14. doe plainely ſhew that the Apoſtles did ordaine them, and not the people; if the contrary there can be ſhewed, let mee beare the blame for euer: and the 1 Tim. 4. 14. ſheweth1. Tim. 4. 14.1 Tim 4:14 alſo the contrary, for there is mention of the Elderſhip; and M^r. Smith (as is before ſet downe) holdeth that all the Elders were Paſtours, then here by his owne expoſition, is he greatly deceiued, to confirme from the Miniſters and Paſtours ordination, lay perſons ordination: ſee here Reader, how herein he croſſeth himſelfe.

p. 319Obiection. Obiect. The Minor I deny; and hee would confirme it thus: becauſe we are made Miniſters by Biſhops, &c.

Anſwere. Anſ. But if the Patron doe chooſe for the people, as he ought a fit man, and the Biſhops doe truely examine him, and finding him apt to teach, and of a godly conuerſation, doe ſo ordaine him, what let is there herein, why his calling is not good? If ignorant perſons, bad and of lewd behauiour be ordained, it is wickedneſſe againſt Gods Law, and the law of ordaining and making Miniſters, and ſuch perſonall corruptions God will duely (at length) puniſh, in ſuch offenders whoſoeuer, except they repent; but yet the lawfull authoritie of Biſhops to ordaine may ſtand good, being an Eccleſiaſticall practiſe, for many hundreth yeeres in the Church of God. And here I doe confeſſe, that it is ſin in any to ordaine a bad and lewd fellow for a Miniſter, or to ſet a blinde guide ouer a people, and it is crueltie in couetous and accurſed patrons, for lucres ſake, or other by-reſpect to thruſt a badde, or inſufficient man vponupon a Congregation, when the people deſire a better, whoſe ſoules he makes ſale of, as men doe of beaſts in the market place; an euill not to be ſuffered in the Church of God, neither indeed doe our lawes allow hereof, though ſuch euils paſſe vnpuniſhed many times.

In the next place after theſe three reaſons, M. Smith ſeemethPage 96. to make anſwere to my reaſons giuen in my former Booke, by which I doe proue that we hauehave true Miniſters ofPage 128. Chriſt, as now in this booke I hauehave before ſufficiently ſhewed. His ſeeming confutation of my former reaſons are but idle cauils, and tedious diſcourſing, to beguile the ſimple plaine hearted.

Obiection. Firſt, to my Argument of conuerting men hee anſweres firſt, negatiuely, that here are none conuerted to the true viſible Faith, taught in the new Teſtament.

Anſwere. To this I anſwere: 1. that he grants, Page 96. line 35. that the Lord workes inward conuerſion by the Miniſterie of the Land, and the hearers feele it in their Conſciences: by whichNote what M. Smith. he acknowledgeth the Lord to countenance it, and to p. 312make it liuely in the very conſciences of men, which is theconfeſſeth to be wrought by our Miniſtery. firſt and moſt excellent fruit or effect of the Miniſterie; for there beginneth Chriſts worke of his word: Act. 2. 37. and 16. 14. Heb. 4. 12. 2. That therefore if the heart and conſcience be conuerted, can that Miniſterie be denyed to hauehave an outward effect? If the firſt be true, as there hee confeſſeth, and alſo doth acknowledge the ſame of himſelfe in another place: then the latter cannot be denyed: for as S. Paul ſaith, if wee beleeue in the heart, wee will confeſſe with the mouth, as the inſtances of ſuch as were conuerted mentioned in the Acts, doe declare. 3. In denying vsus true viſible faith, hee ſpeaketh both falſely and moſt vnproperly, and ſo alſo abſurdly: falſely, for can there be inward conuerſion, and not true faith? It is moſt ſtrange to heare of the hearts conuerſion, and of no Faith, when this is firſt, and the other followes vponupon it: Abſurdly, in calling Faith a viſible thing; for it is the moſt ſecret grace, though from it doe ariſe liuely fruits to demonſtrate it, which fruits neuertheleſſe are not Faith it ſelfe, no more then an effect may be called the cauſe of it ſelfe. It is ſaid in Iames, that Faith muſt beIam. 2.Jas 2 ſhewed by workes; works of Faith are viſible, but not Faith it ſelfe. Hee ſpeaketh therefore abſurdly, and coyneth a diſtinction fooliſhly, as hee doth Religions to himſelfe daily moſt fantaſtically. 4. If hee meane by true viſible Faith, the true fruits of Faith, and deny that we hauehave no viſible fruits of Faith, hee doth vsus great wrong, and for truth of this, ſee what before I hauehave ſaid of viſible conuerſion.

Secondly, hee anſweres by conceſſion, be it ſaith hee, that wee doe conuert to the viſible faith, yet it is no proofe of the truth of our Miniſterie, that wee are true Paſtours, andPage 95. and why forſooth? becauſe, ſaith he, A Paſtour conuerteth not properly, but feedeth men conuerted. I anſwere, firſt, that he grants they conuert, but not as their proper worke, yet they doe conuert: ſecondly, I hauehave before prooued againſt M^r. Ainſworth, the vanitie and falſhood of this diſtinction.

Secondly, to the Scriptures which I alledged Pag. 129. Romanes 10. 14. 15. 1 Cor. 9. 2. to be compared with p. 3212 Cor. 3. 1. 3. and 13. 3. 5. to proue that ſuch as conuert men to the profeſſion of the faith of Chriſt, and doe call vponupon his Name, are ſent of Chriſt, for that the Apoſtle, that is, (as I ſaid) one ſent of God, doth ſo confirme his Miniſterie;Booke of their confeſ. pag. 31. and becauſe, they confeſſe that Chriſt doth not workeby falſe meanes.

Obiection. Firſt, he anſweres cauiling, that ſo we would proue our ſelues Apoſtles, when as I vſed the word, Apoſtle, in a double ſenſe: in one ſenſe, onelyonly from the Etymon of the word; applying it to Rom. 10. 15. whence I thus reaſoned. They that conuert ſoules, are ſent of God: ſo doth the place proue, & the word, Apoſtles, ſignifie taken in the large ſenſe. But the Miniſters of England conuert ſoules, therefore the Miniſters of England are ſent of God. Anſwere. Thus taken, he yeeldeth, that no man can conuert to the true faith of Chriſts new Teſtament, which is viſible, except he be ſent of God. And therefore we prouing, that wee conuert men, as himſelfe acknowledgeth inwardly, and as I hauehave proued outwardly, it followes hence, from his owne grant, that wee are Miniſters ſent of God. Yet againſt the force of reaſon, & the word of God, from a peruerſe ſpirit, he ſaith, we peruert men, and are the inſtruments of Sathan, ſent by the Lord in his wrath to keepe the people in bondage from the obedience of the faith taught in the new Teſtament, which furie and out-rage of his ſpirit, both religion, reaſon, & his owne confeſſion forced from both, hath bett downe in him.

Anſwere. Secondly, he rayleth vponupon mee for auouching, that the1. Cor. 9. 1. Obiection.1 Cor 9:1 word, worke, 1 Cor. 9. 1. is vnderſtood the Lords effectuall working by his Miniſterie, in the conuerſion of ſoules to God, and not the outward ſetling of them, neither onelyonly nor chiefly into gathered Aſſemblies. His reaſon is becauſe men are not conuerted to the true faith, till they be conuerted Page 96.and eſtabliſhed in the true Church, if it may be found. This is moſt falſe, or moſt abſurd: firſt, his (if it may be found) ſhewes that there is a conuerſion belike ſome time, and not an eſtabliſhing of ſuch a one into a viſible Church: ſecondly, what ſaith hee of the twelue men, Diſciples, Act. 19. 1. what viſible Aſſembly were they eſtabliſhed in? and yet p. 322were conuerted: thirdly, this is againſt the order of receiuing men into the true Church; for the Apoſtles did firſt iudge them conuerted to the true faith, before they receiued them into the Church, an inſtance is in Act. 8. 37. and ſo of all the reſt: and yet here this man ſaith, they be not conuerted to the true faith, before they be conuerted and eſtabliſhed in the true Church: Folly dwelleth with the wilfull.

For my expounding the Scriptures, I referre them to the iudicious Reader to compare them together, and to the learned Commentaries of Diuines, amongſt other, M. Caluin, who calleth the Apoſtles worke, the conuerſion of the Corinthians, and that the Lord had ſealed his Apoſtleſhip by their faith, 1. Cor. 9. 1. 2. and ſaith alſo 2 Cor. 3. 3. that the Corinthians faith was the Apoſtles worke: his doctrine, the Lords effectual worke thereby. The bringing of people to imbrace that, is more Apoſtolical, than the gathering of companies together, which both falſe Apoſtles, Heretiques, and Schiſmatickes hauehave done, and now doe. And whereas M. Smith, to make good his abuſing of the word by his wretched gloſſes, brings in 2 Cor. 3. 7. where mention is2 Cor. 3. 7.2 Cor 3:7 made of Moſes, a compariſon betweene the perſons of Moſes and S. Paul, as if the holy Ghoſt intended to ſet them two out, hee doth herein ſeduce his Diſciples, and abuſe the place; for there Moſes and Paul are not compared, but the Goſpell and the Law, the miniſtration of both, by the Miniſters of either Teſtament; of which ſee Interpreters vponupon that place. The Apoſtle mentioneth not their gathering into a companie, but his teaching of them, 1 Cor. 4. 15. and winning of them to the profeſſion of Chriſt, which is their conuerſion to the faith of Chriſt, called the ſeale of his Apoſtleſhip, 1 Cor. 9. 2. by which they be made Chriſtians, and Gods Church, though they be not in one place. And thus much to this: I leaue his rayling and rauing ſpirit to be rebuked of him, who ſaith, that the rayler ſhall not inherit the kingdome of God.

Thirdly, that which I ſpeake, page 129, 130. touching conuerſion by priuate perſons, hee would obſcure by a p. 323tedious multiplicitie of words, in his Booke, page, 97. 98. but applyeth it not to ouerthrow my reaſons, which remaine vntouched, and therefore till, as a direct anſwerer, he refell my reaſons, and make more euident the truth, I let him paſſe, as ſhooting at rouers, both deceitfully and idlie.

Fourthly, to that which I ſay, touching the qualification of our Miniſters, their Calling, Doctrine, adminiſtration of the Sacraments, faithfull execution of their Miniſterie, conſcionable liuing, and Gods aſſiſtance in their labour. Hee tels vsus if we would beleeue him, that the Popiſh MiniſtersPage. 99. hauehave all theſe; and ſaith, that they doe preach the true doctrine of Chriſt, and adminiſter his true Sacraments, and ſo forth; proceeding to ſet out them to condemne vsus, but all verbally, without proofe, and therefore I deny, what hee ſaith, till hee proue it, and in the meane ſpace deſire him a better guide then that lying ſpirit, euen the grace of Gods ſpirit, to learne him to ſpeake the truth.

In the next place, hee anſweres to the anſwere of an Objection from popular power, to ouerthrow ordination by Biſhops, which before is replyed vntounto. To my Similitude of marriage, that as a faulty entrance in marriage, ſo the ſubſtance be kept, cannot diſanull it being made, nor make it falſe; no more can a corrupt entrance into the Miniſterie, make it eyther a falſe, or no Miniſterie. Hee anſweres ſummarily thus much, that matter or forme being falſe, the ordinance cannot be true: but hee ſaith, our Miniſterie cannot be true, becauſe our Aſſemblies are falſe. Where firſt note his folly, how he maketh the Aſſemblies part of the Miniſterie, eyther for matter or forme of the Miniſterie, which was neuer heard of before; elſe why maketh hee the ſame the reaſon to ouerthrow either the matter or forme, which hee ſtood vponupon, for other accidentall circumſtances diſanull not Gods ordinances, as he confeſſeth. Secondly, his ground is falſe; for wee be a true Church, and therefore by ſaying wee are a falſe Church, hee cannot proue our miniſterie falſe; my ſimilie therefore is good, and not yet of leſſe force, by all that he hath ſaid.

p. 324Fiftly, to the place of Iohn 10. before ſpoken of, hee anſweres both abſurdly, and falſely, as I hauehave in my Reply to M. Ainſworth vponupon this place fully declared.

Sixtly, and laſtly, to that which I ſay in my former bookePage 144. againſt their Miniſters, hee anſweres, and ſaith, that I call them vnlawfull, but I dare not ſay falſe: But if hee ſay true, himſelfe ſaith, the Browniſts Miniſters are Antichriſtian, & ſuch are, by his owne account, falſe; and why may not I dare ſo to call them, if (I ſay) hee ſpeake truth: for himſelfe now I dare call him both an vnlawfull & a falſe Miniſter; for that hee doth teach continually falſe and abſurd doctrines; becauſe alſo hee peruerteth Gods truth, to the deſtruction of his followers, as is by me made manifeſt, and very effectually by M. Ainſworth in his anſwere vntounto him, and ſo I hope will hee be more and more manifeſted by others an Anabaptiſticall Heretique, and a man nothing but dreames, and vaine in his imaginations.

Obiection. Obiect. But hee ſaith firſt, if Miniſters be by ſucceſſion, then are they true Miniſters; becauſe (ſaith hee) they were ordained by our Biſhops.

Anſwere. Anſ. I anſwere firſt, that they hauehave renounced, as hee confeſſeth, that ordination; and therefore by it can be noPage. 102. Miniſters. Secondly, hee challengeth to be Miniſter by the popular power before ſpoken of, and denyeth any ſucceſſion to be in the new Teſtament. To which I anſwere, that the firſt is fully anſwered before, that there is no popular power of ordination in the new nor old Teſtament, & therfore that cannot make them to be, which is not it ſelfe. Obiection. The ſecond I hauehave proued, which he renounceth, and would againe here ouerthrow by this reaſon; becauſe the Church elected Mathias, there being then no Apoſtles, Acts. 1. the Church elected Deacons. Act. 6. and Elders Act. 14. Anſwere. I anſwer, that it is moſt falſe to ſay there were then no Apoſtles, for what was Peter, and the other ten with him at that time? I hauehave alſo before ſhewed how contrary this is to truth of Scripture, and contrary to all Diuines that eyther are or hauehave beene, except hee can produce their teſtimonies. p. 325Againe it is falſe which hee ſaith, that the Church did elect Mathias; for it is ſaid they preſented two, Act. 1. 23. and the Lord did make the choyſe. 24. 25. how impudent is he that will ſo plainely gaineſay the Text? Of the other places hauehave I alſo before ſpoken, to which I refer the Reader. And thus much for the ninth Errour.