Arrow Against the Separationists, Discourse · Chapter 12 · Section 4
Section. 4.
Hen. Ainſ.AGainſt the example of Ioſias, in 2. Chron. 34. you ſay, thoſe things were alſo of no neceſsary vſe. I anſwer, you fall againe into your former fallacie, putting that for the cauſe which was not. And beſides the reaſons which I fore-alledged, the text itſelf ſheweth otherweiſe, for he made //Verſ. 4.7duſt of them. Could not the things have been put to ſome neceſſarie vſe: and where they therfore turned to duſt and powder? The godly zele of the King, compared with Gods law, perſwadeth that his own profit or neceſſary vſe, was not the thing that he reſpected. And what if the high places were not houſes meet to be converted into ſynagogues; yet might they have ſerved for other vſes: and the houſes of Dagon and Baal, and the temples which Iſrael builded *Hoſ. 8.14when they forgot their maker, were as fit for ſynagogues as Antichriſts temples now. And if you will regard later examples: you may ſee many idol houſes and moniments deſtroyed by Chriſtian Princes, and by Biſhops having leave from ſuch: and this not becauſe they could not have put them to neceſsary vſes, but for zele and deteſtation of idolatrie. As 1Euſebius de vita Conſt. l. 3. c. 53.Conſtantine the Emperour raſed down Venus temple, with all ſtatues and moniments of it: & 2Socrates Hiſt. l. 1. c. 14.the Python in Cilicia, with his temple. 3Theodoret hiſt. l. 5 c. 37. 20. 21. Sozom. l. 7 c. 20. 21Theodoſius commanded the temples of idols to be overthrowen. 4Auguſtin de civ. Dei. l. 18. c. 54.Gaudentius & Iovius ruinated ſuch places in the reigne of Honorius. 5Cranz. l. 2 Saxon. c. 9. & 12.Carolus Magnus, when he had conquered Saxonie, did the like to the idolies of Maydenburgh and Mars mount. 6Theodor. hiſt. l. 3. c. 7Marcus Biſhop of Arethuſa, performed the like ſervice in Conſtantines dayes, and 7Sigonius l. 10. Imperij occidentBiſhop Porphyrie ſhewed like zele at Gaza, and 8Caſſiod. lib. 3. Hiſt. tripart.Biſhop Abdas did the like among the Perſians, vponupon their Temples conſecrated to the Fyre. Iohn 9Theodor. l. 5. 2. 29.Chryſoſtome ſent men to doe the like work in Phaenicia. 10Helmoldus in Sclavorū Chrō.Biſhop Geroldus burned to aſhes, a grove which the Sclavi had in ſacred reverence. 11Chron. Merſburg. l. 2. c. 6.VVigbertus Biſhop of Merſburgh did likeweiſe, and 12Cranz. in Metrop. l. 4. c. 1.Vnwannus of Hamburgh, cut down all the idolatrous groves in his dioceſe. 13Cromer. l. 15. & Guagninus de Lituania.In Lituania, the Temples and Altars of idols were demoliſhed: and in ſundry other places, as Hiſtoriographers doe record. And now of late the Chriſtians in France (as at Rochel) ruinated the popiſh Temples there: all which doe bear witnes to the true meaning of Gods law, written in their harts, otherwiſe then in yours, who plead to have ſuch places continued for to worſhip God in upon a pretenſe of neceſſary vſe.
Anſwer.
Ioh. Pag.THe reaſons which you fore alledged againſt the conſideration of neceſſary vſe in things abuſed vntounto Idolatry, are before anſwered: vntounto that which you now labour to ſhew out of the text itſelf I anſwer further, 1. vvhereas you alledge that Ioſias made duſt of the Altars and groves, &c. and therevpon aſk whether they could not have bene put to ſome neceſſary vſe, &c. If you meane a neceſſary vſe in any meaſure at all, I deny not the the ſame: for there is nothing ſo ſmall or abiect but ſome vſe may be made thereof: and even after theſe things were turned into duſt, there might vſe be made of that duſt, as there vvas: but you pervert my words if you ſtand ſo ſervilly vntounto the letter thereof: vvhereas I ſpoke of the great proffit that might redound vntounto the maintenance of the Church: and namely ſuch as might be proportionable vntounto the worth of many temples, of ten thouſand Churches happily in ſome one Kingdome: and vvhat is a baſketfull of duſt about which you trifle in compariſon of this great commodity employed to ſupply the wants of the faithfull? 2. Touching Ioſias his zeale compared with the law of God though I doubt not but that he reſpected the Glory of God and not his owne proffit: yet this hinders not but that vvith a godly zele and care of Gods people he might alſo have reſpect vntounto the common benefit of them in reſerving many Synagogues and houſes of aſſembly built for the worſhip of God, and convert them to his ſervice againe though they had bene polluted with Idolatry, contrary to your doctrine that requires the demolition of all ſuch beſide the temple alone. 3, as for the houſes of Dagon, Baal and ſuch like, though they were not mentioned in the x2. Chr. 34Chapter alledged by you to ſhew vsus the example of Ioſias, yet did I alſo in my former ypag. 22.anſwer, ſhew the warrant for their deſtructiō, though they might have bene turned vntounto neceſſary vſe, viz. in reſpect of the tēporary diſpenſatiō vnderunder Moſes, though now abrogate.
In the next place, leaving the Scriptures, you betake your ſelf to an other help, and ſay in defence of your errour, that if, I will regard later examples, I may ſee many Idol houſes and moniments deſtroyed by Chriſtian Princes, and by Biſhops having leave from ſuch, &c. Herevnto I anſwer in generall, 1. VVe have here a notable ſpectacle of your great partiality; while you that do ſo often blame me for making fleſh my arme, & for alledging the Examples of Reformed Churches againſt you even when I did it not, do yet yourſelf ſeek help of men, of Idolatrous men & fly for refuge vntounto them, and to their examples to oppugne vsus therewithall. VVhen Mr. Spr. propounded vntounto your conſideration, the example and iudgement of zCounterpoy. pag. 15.all the pure Reformed Churches in the world, & of al the godly learned & moſt excellēt lights in the ſame, as Bucer, Martyr, Fagius, Alaſto, Knoxe, Calvin, Beza, Bullinger, Gualter, Symler, Zanchius, Iunius, Rollocus, &c. You anſwer as David did touching the armies of the heathēs & infidels and ſay, though be come againſt you with horſmen and Charets, yet you //pſ. 20.7.wil remember the name of the Lord, by whoſe word alone all doctrines muſt be tried, &c. How much more iuſtly might I now anſwer you in your owne words, and require you to lay aſide carnall confidence and to remember the name of the Lord: I may juſtly complaine of you as Solomon doth of the great evill which he ſaw vnderunder the Sunne; He ſaw aEccleſ. 10.7.Servants on horſes and Princes walking as Servants on the ground: In your examples alledged againſt me, you ſet Servants and Beggars on horſback, even the vaſſals & ſlaves of Antichriſt, popiſh Prieſts & Prelates Geroldus, Wigbertus, Vnwannus & other Lituanians & Polonians, and will have their examples to be regarded of me; and yet make Princes to walk as ſervants on the ground, by making baſe account of the judgements & examples of the trueſt Churches & faithfulleſt Miniſters, propounded vntounto you by others: Let thoſe that feare the Lord judge whether this be not ſhamefull and groſſe partiality and far from a ſincere courſe.
2. VVe may here obſerve not onelyonly, your partiality but a further deceit; for whereas in the beginning of your bPag. 35.laſt writing, your counſell is that we diſcuſſe things by the word of God, not of man: you are herein like vntounto a deceitfull champion who being to combat with an other, would aforehand agree vponupon the weapon and aſſiſtance to be vſed: but yet contrary to agreement brings with him into the feeld both other weapons and aſſiſtance then he pretended at the firſt: for ſo you making ſhew that you would vſe the ſword of the ſpirit onelyonly, do yet bring with you other carnall weapons and a company of hyred Souldiers which you couch cloſely togather and lay them in ambuſh: and here of a ſodaine they ſtep forth, firſt a band of Emperours & Princes as of Conſtantine the great, Theodoſius, Gaudentius, Iovius, Carolus magnus or Charles the great; and the marching of theſe horſmen and Charets makes a terrible noyſe in the eares of many: after theſe you bring forth a ſecond band of Popiſh prelates, as Geroldus, Wigbertus, Vnwannus, to come ruſling in their rochets againſt me: & beſides theſe divers others. VVho would have expected ſuch an onſet, vnderunder your conduct, that made ſuch ſhew of the contrary at the firſt?
3. As you have alledgedged the examples of theſe for breakin downe of temples, ſo might you as eaſily have alledged their examples for the maintenance of many notorious corruptions ſome of them for the ſuperſtitious vſe of the ſigne of the croſſe; ſome of them to allow primates and metropolitanes: ſome of them to allow even the maſſe itſelf and all the abominations of popery. VVhat weight is there in the example of ſuch?
4. The temples which theſe Princes and Biſhops deſtroyed were all of them heathniſh and built by the Pagans for the worſhip of falſe Gods: other temples ſuch as ours built for the ſervice of Chriſt, they deſtroyed not, but built ſuch themſelves, as you would now have to be demoliſhed. And ſuppoſe you could prove that the temples abuſed by Antichriſte vvere to be deſtroyed as vvell as the Pagan-Idolies: yet at leaſt by the teſtimony and judgement of theſe your witneſſes it vvas othervviſe: ſo that look what the force of theſe examples is, it is allagainſt your ſelf and not againſt vsus.
But to come more particularly vntounto your examples: The firſt is, that Conſtantine the Emperour raſed down Venus Temple, with all statues and moniments of it: I anſwer, 1. It is vncertaine whether this thing was done by Conſtantine or not: for Euſebius the author that records the ſame is cR. P. de Politeria Eccleſ. lib. 2. cap. 23. 24. 25. 26. Scaliger. Elēc. trihaereſ. Serrar. c. 29often taxed for many errours in matters of fact deſcribed by him. His teſtimony is therfore doubtfull and not free from ſuſpicion. 2. That Temple is recorded by Euſebius to have bene an extraordinary wicked place, not onelyonly for heathniſh Idolatry, but alſo for other monſtrous and vnnaturall crimes committed in the ſame, which are alſo alledged as a cauſe why it was deſtroyed: Therfore the deſtruction thereof is no ſufficient warrant for the ſubverſion of our temples. 3, It is alſo noted by Euſebius in the ſame Chapter which you cite, that this temple of Venus was ſituate in a dearne place on a top of mount Libanus, out of the way & remote from converſation of men: therfore could it not even by his relation be converted vntounto ſuch neceſſary vſes as our temples are.
4. That Idol temples were not deſtroyed by Conſtantine, it is confeſſed by an dTheodoret Hiſt. lib. 5. c. 20.other of your witneſſes: Therfore though he forbade the Idolaters to vſe them, yet do not your witneſſes agree that his conſcience required the deſtruction of them all together acccording to your doctrine.
The ſecond example alledged by you is of Constantine alſo, that he deſtroyed the Python in Cilicia with his temple. I anſwer, 1. The truth of this fact may alſo be juſtly called into queſtiō, conſidering how vncertaine or rather fabulous things are recorded by that Socrates your witneſſe. In the eSocrates Hiſt. lib. 1. cap. 13.former Chapter next vntounto this alledged by you there is recorded the finding out of the holy croſſe by Helena the Mother of Conſtantine: the miraculous diſcerning of the ſame from the two other croſſes of the theeves crucifyed with Chriſt, by the meanes of Macarius, &c. 2. If the things there recorded by Socrates be true, then was the ſuperſtition of Conſtantine very great; in taking apeece of that croſſe vvhichwhich his mother found and ſent vntounto him, and hiding it in his owne ſtatue or image, beleeving perfectly that the city ſhould be preſerved ſafe, vvhere it was kept: in taking alſo the nayles which faſtned the hands of Chriſt vnthe croſſe, and putting them in his horſe bridles and in his helmet (as an fTheodoret Hiſt. lib. 1. c. 18.other of your Authors ſayth) to repell the darts of his enimies; and to accompliſh the ancient gZach. 14.20.Prophecie, touching the holynes vponupon the bridles of the horſes. Such examples are of no great authority with vsus. 3. Theſe Authors witneſſe further that in Conſtantines time, they did hEuſeb. hiſt. lib. 20 cap. 3.conſecrate Churches, and kept feaſts of dedication: that he iSocrates hiſt. lib. 1. c. 13.cauſed a temple to be built vvhere the temple of Venus had ſtood: and an other at the kibid. c. 14oke of Mamre evē in the Idol-place vvhere heathniſh ſacrifices had bene offred. Do you think that ſuch examples are to be regarded and follovved?
For a third example you tell vsus that Theodoſius commanded the temples of Idols to be overthrowne: I anſwer, 1. Your hiſtorians witneſſing this fact are ſo full of apparant fables that there is no great credit to be given vntounto them. As for Theodoret to go no further then theſe chapters alledged by you: in the lTheodoret Hiſt. lib. 5. .37.firſt of them he telles great wonders of Eunomius the Biſhop that alone reſiſted an army when others fainted, &c. in the mibid. c. 20ſecond place, the ſtory of Macedonius the divine eremite that was ignorant of the ſcriptures, is related: in the nibid. c. 21.third place is the ſtory of the Divel that at firſt would not ſuffer the fire to burne the Idol-temple, but was after driven to run away by the vertue of holy vvater and the ſigne of the croſſe, &c. And Sozomen in the oSozom. lib. 7. c. 21.Chapter next-following vntounto that which you alledge telles a ſtrange ſtory of Iohn Baptiſts head which the mules would draw no further then to a certaine place ſuppoſed therfore to be choſen of God for the keeping of that relique: and how Theodoſius came thither either God or the Prophet mooving him, &c. 2, Sozomen in the place cited by you ſhewes that at length many of the Idol-temples were overthrovvne by Theodoſius: If he had thought them ſimply vnlavvfull according to Deut. 12. Then is it like that not many but all of them ſhould have bene deſtroyed by him. And beſides he pibid. c. 1…ſhevves that the temple of Bacchus in Alexandria was converted vntounto the vſe of the Chriſtians vnderunder Theodoſius: That in the temple of Serapis, there was heard to be ſung Alleluia, by a ſtrange voyce, no perſon being ſeene for a token that Chriſtians ſhould afterwards ſing pſalmes for the worſhip of God in that place. 3, In the firſt place which you alledge out of Theodoret, there is alſo mention made of a certaine impudent monke or contemplative perſon that brought the conſcience of Theodoſius into bondage with a vaine excommunication, &c. And therfore not the conſciences of ſuch men but the word of God which is the perfect law of liberty muſt be our guide.
In the fourth place you alledge, that Gaudentius and Iovius ruinated ſuch places in the reigne of Honorius. Anſw. 1. Though they did ſo in one city, in Carthage, yet this ſhewes not that they did ſo in other places, or that they thought all others bound to imitate their example: for oftentimes ſuch works are done vponupon occaſion of particular reſpects and ſpecialll provocations, which at other times and places they would not doe: as vvas alſo noted before in the practiſe of Conſtantine the great. 2. As for Auguſtine your Author, though he approve this fact in them; yet it appeares els vvhere, that at ſome other times and places he qAuguſt. ad Publicolā Epiſt. 154.allowed the reteyning of them: and ſhewes reaſon for their converting to religious vſes, even as ſacrilegious and impious perſons themſelves are changed or converted vntounto true religion: And his reaſon is not to be deſpiſed: ſeing living temples of the divel abuſed vntounto Idolatry being more capable of the infection of ſin may be employed and turned vntounto the ſervice of God; why not other dead temples made of vvood and ſtone? 3. This your vvitneſſe doth yet further condemne you, in that he rIbidem.allovves the converting of Idol-temples and groves vntounto the vvorſhip of the true God, or vntounto other common and publique vſes, but not vntounto other private vſes and commodities: vvhereas on the contrary you that do deny ſuch publique vſe of them in the ſervice of God, are yet content to employ them to your ovvne private vſe and benefit as by ſtudy in the library, &c.
Your fift example is, that Carolus magnus when he had conquered Saxonie, did the like to the Idolies of Maydenburgh and Mars mount. I anſvver. 1. Cranzius the popiſh vvriter vvhom you alledge for theſe things is of ſuch authority, that for many matters the golden legend of lyes deſerves as much credit as he: He telles ſCranzius VVandalia lib. 5. c. 41.of ſtrange apparitious at noone day made vntounto virgins for the receiving of Henricus the nevv Biſhop: and of the great miracles that tcap. 42.Evermodus the Biſhop vvrought in looſing the chaynes of priſoners by the holy vvater that he ſprinckled vponupon them: and hovv in the open congregation he beat out the vnmercifull divel that vvould not forgive the murdrer. He records hovv uIbid lib 4 cap. 19.Vicelinus the Biſhop after his death appeared vntounto a certaine woman complaining that the almes vvhichwhich vvere given for his ſoules health vvere not duely beſtovved by Tolcardus the Prieſt to whom that buſines was cō mitted, &c. And that he appeared vntounto an other virgin, ſending her to Eppo his old frend that lamēted his death, to comfort him and to ſignify vntounto him, that he caryed his teares in his garment which was vponupon him vvhite as ſnow: And he ſhewes alſo what a miracle he vvIbid. c. 20wrought vponupon a blinde woman vntounto whom he appeared in a dreame and reſtored her ſight by printing the ſigne of the croſſe vponupon her eyes, &c. He xSaxoniae lib. 2. c. 26.records how Carolus magnus having begun to build a Church at Elize, and that dying his Sonne Lodowick ſucceeded him, vvho riding a hunting on a certaine day, & hearing Maſſe in the field, his chaplaine left the ſacred relicks behind him, to wit, ſome of the milk of S. Mary, and of the haires of her head which he had hung vponupon a tree: but being come back and miſſing the ſame, ran againe with haſt vntounto the tree vvhere he left them, but being come could by no meanes of any ſtrength pluck them away from the tree. This they judged to be a ſigne that Mary had choſen that place to dwell in and ſo they tranſlated the Church begun at Eltze vntounto this place, &c. 2. In the place yIbid. c. 1…alledged by you, he ſhewes that this Charles the great when he had broken downe the temple of Venus at Maydenburgh, did erect an other even in the ſame place vntounto the honour of St. Stephen: and ſo deſtroying one Idol-temple he ſet vp an other. Had I alledged againſt you ſuch examples and ſuch Authors, then had it bene time for you to have called me, zEſa. 8.to the law & to the teſtimony.
In the ſixt place you come from Emperours and Princes vntounto Biſhops, deſtroying Idol-temples; and here you tell how Marcus Biſhop of Arethuſa performed the like ſervice in Conſtantines dayes. But (not to ſpeak further of the authors vncertainty that records this fact) ſeing the deſtruction of Tēples is a worke of the civil Magiſtrate, and by them to be executed as your ſelf confeſſe; how could Marcus performe this work without vſurpacion of the civil ſword? If you ſay that leave and authority from the Prince did warrant him thus to do, then by the like grant and warrant from Princes you may allow Biſhops to be high commiſſioners and civill Magiſtrates: And they may as well alledge theſe examples of Biſhops for maintenance of their double authority, as you do for the deſtruction of temples. But more particularly touching this example when you come afterwards to alledge it the ſecond time.
Your 7th. example is of Biſhop Porphyrie that ſhewed the like zele at Gaza. I anſwer, 1. It appeares out of Sigonius in the place you alledg, that Biſhop Porphyrie, was ſtird vp vntounto this fact by the iniuries that he received from the gentiles which prevayled in Gaza: and therfore his zele againſt Idolies is not very evident. 2, The maner of dealing which this Biſhop and the Biſhop of Caeſarea that joyned with him, did vſe in Prophecying vntounto the empreſſe Eudoxia touching a Sonne to be borne vntounto her, to win her aſsiſtance in this matter, makes their zele the more to be ſuſpected. 3. Their Baptiſing of the Emperours Childe with the ſigne of the croſſe even at the ſame time when they got licenſe to deſtroy the Idol-temples at Gaza, doth ſhew that you may as well alledge their examples for themaintenance of other ſuperſtitions, as for the countenancing of your opinion in this controverſie.
Your 8. example is of Biſhop Abdas that did the like among the Perſians, vponupon their temples conſecrated to the fire. I anſwer, That Caſsiodorus who relates this fact (not in the 3. booke, as you cite the ſame, but in the 10. book and 3. Chapter of his tripartite hiſtory) doth alſo iuſtly reprove the ſame, both by the aAct. 17.22 23. &c.example of Paul who though he ſhewed the errour of the Athenians, yet did he not himſelf deſtroy their altars and idols; as this biſhop did without any lawful authority: as alſo by the woful evēt that followed, namely that vponupon this fact all the Churches of the Chriſtians were deſtroyed and overthrowne by the Perſians; and not onelyonly this; but here vponupon alſo was rayſed a moſt cruell and extreme perſecution of the Chriſtians which continued for the ſpace of 30 yeares together. And if this example ought to be followed, then ought you and your people to come with your hammers to break our temples, but I need not to dehort you from ſuch folly.
Your 9. example is that Iohn Chryſoſtome ſent men to do the like worke in Phaenicia. Anſw. 1. The men whom he ſent about this worke, were (as the author alledged by you bTheodoret. lib. 5. c. 29.ſhewes) monkes inflamed with divine zele: if you had alledged this teſtimony ſo in your authors owne wordes, the weaknes of ſuch exāples would the better have appeared vntounto the readers: for thereby they might have diſcerned your author commending monkes, and ſhewing the antiquity of monaſticall life, as well as he ſhewes the ruine of Temples. 2. If the example of Chryſoſtome be of any worth in your eyes, we may then alledge the ſame againſt your oppugning of ſet formes of prayer, which he allowed in the worſhip of God, as appeares by the hymnes and antiphones which as an other of your witneſſes cSocrates hiſt. lib. 6. c. 8.recordeth) he made for the Chriſtians to vſe in their feaſts of the Sabath and the Lords day at their nocturnal aſſemblies, &c.
Your 10th. example is that Biſhop Geroldus burned to aſhes, a grove which the Sclavi had in ſacred reverence. Anſwer. As for Helmoldus, your author that records this ſtory; 1. He was a popiſhmaſſe prieſt; His name in the native ſpeech ſignifies *Etymologic. Teutō. in proprijs nominibus.Hell-mouth, a fit memorial to ſhew how you goe from the mouth of God to Hell mouth for teſtimony in this controverſie; for as is his name, ſo is his book, repleniſhed with many fables, lying viſions and miracles wrought by the ſigne of the croſſe, & ſome of them the ſame that I noted before out of Cranzius, & therfore his record is not much to be regarded; 2. He dHelmod. epiſt. ad canonicos Lubic.confeſſeth that he was the ſcholler of this Geroldus, his venerable Mr. and that by his perſuaſion he was drawne to write this ſtory: And therfore being ſo fabulous in other parts of this writing, is yet more to be ſuſpected of flattery in this which he ſaith touching his Maiſter. 3. He was alſo an ignorant hiſtorian, & erres groſly in the very elib. 1. c. 1.entrance into his booke where he writes that the Baltique ſea is ſo called becauſe by a long tract it is stretched out in manner of a girdle or belt through the Scythian regions even vntounto Graecia, contrary vntounto the teſtimony of all Coſmographers & of dayly experience: He is herein refuted even by fVVandaliae lib. 2. c. 17.Cranzius him ſelf your other witneſſe. His ſkill in Geography ſeemes to be like vntounto yours, when by a like though a greater errour, contrary to the deſcription of mappes, and contrary to the teſtimony of the Scriptures you do write cōcerning the limits of the tribe of Iſachar, that gAnnot. on pſal. 68.14.it had the Philiſtians at one end, and the Ammonites on the other, that vexed them: where as by hIoſh. 13.10. & 15.45. &c. & 19.17. &c.conference of ſcriptures ſhewing the topography and ſituation of the tribes, that tribe of Iſachar had neither the Philiſtins on the one ſide of their limits nor the Ammonites on the other, neither is there any colour of reaſon, why the tribe of Iſachar in ſpeciall ſhould be ſayd to couch downe in reſpect of any vexation by the Philiſtins or Ammonites. Such is your ignorance of hiſtory, when ſpeaking of Tarſus mentioned in Act. 21.34. you call it iAnnot. on pſal. 48.8.the cheefe city of Cilicia in Syria; as if you ſhould have ſayd, London the cheefe city of Middleſex, in Scotland; or Amſterdam the cheefe city of Holland in France: you might as well have ſayd that Samaria was in Galile; or Iudea in Moab, as have ſayd that Cilicia was in Syria: not onelyonly kPtolomaeus. Geogr. lib. 5. cap. 7Coſmographers but the holy lAct. 15.23 41. Gal. 1.21Scriptureit ſelf doth often diſtinguiſh thoſe countries one frō an other. An other the like errour you commit in the ſame place, when ſpeaking of that Tarſus in Cilicia, you ſay: from thence they went by ſhipping into farr countreyes, Africa, India, Ophir, &c. 1. Kin. 22.48. & 10.22. For thoſe voyages mentioned in the booke of the Kings were not from Cilicia into Ophir by ſayling through the Mediterranean Sea, as they needes muſt if they had gone from Tarſus: but 1. both a firme continent was in the way to hinder their paſſage, and the ſcripture it ſelf m2. Chron. 20.36.ſhewes that the ſhippes intended for that voyage mentioned 1. Kin. 22. vvere made at Ezion geber, a city ſituate vponupon the red-ſea, from whence there was a convenient paſſage into India. Theſe your errours in miſplacing of countries are like vntounto Mr. Smyths errour in miſplacing of the brazen altar, and if your reaſoning therevpō againſt Mr. Smyth be ſound, then may I vponupon the like occaſion of Helmoldus, and of your errours obſerve againſt you in your owne words, and ſay: nDefence againſt Mr. Sm. pag. 12God would let the reader ſee how you are given over to blindnes of heart, in iudging ſpirituall things: by that blindnes which is in you in diſcerning carnall things, and which are ſet before all mens eyes. As for Geroldus the popiſh Biſhop, whoſe example you object vntounto me: 1. It doth not agree with that which you propounded to ſhew at the beginning viz. the examples of Chriſtian Princes & of Biſhops having leave from ſuch: for where doth it appeare that he had ſuch leave to do this thing? It doth rather appeare, to be a ſodaine motion, and an occaſional thing falling out in his iourney, when the ſtory ſhewes that oHelmold. Chron. Slavor. lib. 1. c. 84.meeting with ſuch a grove in his way he lept from his horſe, and fell vponupon that worke exhorting others to follow him. 2. The deſtruction of ſuch a Grove is not to be matched with the deſtruction of our temples, in reſpect of the neceſſary vſe wherevnto they may be employed in the ſervice of God, ſo as thoſe trees and hedges could not. 3, It is noted of this Geroldus, that he pCranzius VVandal. lib. 4. c. 21.went to Roome to be conſecrated & made Biſhop by the Pope; and though in the way the theeves met him and ſmote and wounded him in the forehead, yetwould not that Balam turne back or deſiſt from his journey: that he qIbid. c. 26 Helmold. vbi ſupra.alſo conſecrated a Church in Oldenburgh vntounto the honour of St. Iohn Baptiſt, &c. Thus you ſee that your Coſin Mr. Iohn Ainſ. might have alledged the example of this Geroldus againſt yourſelf for the defence of all popery, even as you do againſt vsus for the deſtruction of our temples.
Your 11th example is that Wighertas Biſhop of Merſburgh did likewiſe: If he did but likewiſe, then the like anſwer may ſerve for this, that was given vntounto the former examples. Touching this popiſh Wigbert, it is “Magdeb. centur. 11. cap. 10. col. 602.recorded indeed that he did deſtroy a certaine grove conſecrate vntounto the Idole Zuttiber, and reduced it vntounto a plaine: but it is withall recorded that he did in the ſame place build a Chappel vntounto an other Idol, namely vntounto St. Roman. And where he had remooved the heathniſh Idolatry, even in the ſame place he ſet vp popiſh Idolatry. Are we to be guided by ſuch examples?
Your 12th. Example is that Vnwannus of Hāburgh cut downe all the idolatrous groves in his dioceſſe. I anſwer, 1. It is to be obſerved how you omit the title of this Vnwannus, being Archbiſhop of Hamburgh, as your author in the rCranz. metrop. l. 4 c. 1.place alledged by you doth acknowledge: So before you omitted the title of Chryſoſtome being Archbiſh. of Conſtantinople: Thoſe that were but Biſhops you give all them their titles: but not ſo to either of the Archbiſhops. It ſeemes you thought that ſo long as any were called Biſhops, the reader might conceave they were no vſurping Biſhops: and ſo have regarded their examples the more, that name being given by the holy Ghoſt vntounto his miniſters: but if you had named Archbiſhops, the reader might have conceaved the weaknes of their examples, ſerving as well to ſtabliſh the primacy of Archbiſhops, as to deſtroy temples 2, It is further to be obſerved, that this Vnwannus was not onelyonly an Archbiſhop but alſo a popiſh Archbiſhop, that ſIbidem.received his pall of Pope Benedict the 8t. that he built chappels in honour of Saincts, as that of S. Vitus at Breme. The reader that conſiders this, might think that his example in deſtroying temples is of leſs weight, when he gave ſo foule an example for building Idolatrous temples. 3, even that which Vnwannus did in cutting downe groves is againſt yourſelf: for of the groves he made Churches: tIbidem.ex lucis fecit eccleſias renovari, &c. This had bene vnlawfull in the time of the lavv: The groves of the Canaanites might not be converted vntounto ſuch vſe. If this example of the Archbiſhop may be imitated, then is the commandement in Deut. 12. a ceremoniall and temporary ordinance, not binding vsus in theſe times.
Your 13th. Example is, that in Lituania, the temples & Altars of Idols were demoliſhed. According to your owne authors the thing vvas done on this maner: uCromerus de orig. & rebusgeſtis polonorū lib. 14.Iagello an heathen King of Lituania ſeeking to obtaine Heduigis Queene of Poland for his wife, doth promiſe as a condition of the mariage, that his whole countrey ſhall become Chriſtians. Herevpon vvlib. 15.his people being hardly drawne vntounto it: he is Baptiſed and named Wladiſlaus: this honour is vouchſafed onelyonly to him and to his nobles: becauſe it vvas counted too great a labour to baptiſe the common people, therfore they ſtanding by great troopes & companies together in ſtead of baptiſing were ſprinckled vvith holy water: and but one name given to ech company as well of men as women: then by the Kings comandement they deſtroy the Temple, Altar and oracle at vilna: the grove is cut downe and the living Serpents which they worſhipped were killed: a new Church is built at Vilna, and is conſecrated to the memory of S. Staniſlaus by Bozentas Archbiſhop of Cracow: then Andreas vaſsil… a polonian of the order of the Franciſcanes is inſtituted Biſhop at vilna: And the King ſends an Ambaſſadour vntounto pope Vrban to promiſe obedience vntounto him. Your other xAlexand. Guagninus in Sarmatiae Euroropeae deſcript.Author addes further, that there were thirty thouſand of the Lituanians Baptiſed in one day, & this of the polonian Prieſts which were ignorant of the Lituanian tongue: He yIn Polonorū regū deſcript.ſaith alſo: Heduigis was firſt betrothed vntounto Vilelmus Duke of Auſtria her father being alive: that theſe two were joyned in Mariage alſo by the nobles of Polād in the caſtle of Cracow: but immediatelyagaine ſo ſoone as the Lituanian Kings coming was knowne, they expell the Duke, violate the mariage and vrge the Queene againſt her minde to mary with the King. This is the worthy example that you propound vntounto vsus. From this barbarous adulterer and Idolaters conſcience you will informe and illuminate the eyes and conſciences of all faithfull miniſters and people at this day: from the rude and blinde practiſe of theſe whom by your owne profeſſion you cannot eſteeme to be otherwiſe then a falſe Church, you inſult againſt all the Churches of Chriſte: And of theſe mungrilles, half heathens, and half Papiſts you ſay of them with the reſt, that all theſe beare witneſſe to the true meaning of Gods law written in their hearts other wiſe then in ours, &c.
Your laſt example is, And now of late the Chriſtians in France (as at Rochel) ruinated the popiſh temples there. I anſwer, 1. Had you noted any Chronicle or good writers where this act is particularly deſcribed, with the circumſtances and occaſion hereof, the reader might thereby have had ſatisfactiō touching the ſame, which now your writing doth not afford. 2, As for ruinating ſome popiſh temples, it is that which hath alſo bene practiſed in divers other countries, and even in this city as that of the Minorites, &c. Yet this hinders not but that they have the true meaning of Gods law written in their hearts otherwiſe then in yours that require all ſuch of neceſsity to be deſtroyed, and do alſo ſeparate from the worſhip of God in all ſuch places: As Iſrael was to deſtroy zIoſh. 6. & 7. ch.Iericho the firſt city of Canaan which they came vntounto after they paſſed Iorden; and to keep others for their vſe: ſo many Chriſtians in the beginning of the reformation to ſhew their deteſtation of popery deſtroyed ſome popiſh temples, and yet reſerved the reſt for their neceſſary vſe in the ſervice of God. 3. As for them of Rochel in particular; the ancienteſt miniſters of the French Church in this city, as they have teſtifyed vntounto me, do not know, neither can learne by any enquiry of their people, ſome whereof have formerly bene members of that particular Church of Rochel, that ever the Chriſtians there did make any queſtion or ſcruple of worſhipping God with the reſt of their brethren in any popiſh temples being once purged from their Idolatry. And therfore vntill you bring better evidence of that which you write, we have reaſon to hold the exāple of Rochel for our ſelves againſt you. 4. VponUpon further enquiry, I am “Anno 1618. Iun. 8.now of late advertiſed by letters from Monſieur Loumeau a reverend miniſter of the Church of Rochel; that the ruinating of ſome temples there vvas done not becauſe they thought it vnlawfull to vſe them, but leaſt the Papiſts ſhould have them; that ſome of them were broken downe in reſpect of civil neceſsitie, becauſe they were of importance for fortification in their warres: that at the ſame time when they ruinated ſome, yet they reſerved others for their vſe in the worſhip of God; as namely, a litle temple of the Nonnes, wherein they preached long time after others were deſtroyed: and alſo that of the Convent of the Auguſtines, wherein (as he teſtifyeth) they do ſtill preach vntounto this day. This being ſo, every one may plainely ſee how you abuſe and pervert the examples of the Chriſtians in the Reformed Churches as though they were witneſſes for you and a bettours of your folly. If a feare of pollution in the vſe of them had cauſed them to pluck them downe: then might their conſciences have bene polluted with the vſe of thoſe two which they reſerved, as well as with the reſt. 5. The *Acta Colloquij Mō pelgart. pag. 398.teſtimony of Beza is, that the overthrow of temples in France was done tumultuouſly in the civil warres, not according to knowledge, that it was not approved by their confeſsion and doctrine: That he himſelf could be a witneſſe thereof, being preſent at the warres from the beginning to the end: That he and his fellow miniſters did often admoniſh the Princes and captaines: and did labour to hinder thoſe enterpriſes which fell out in that diſorder, but could not. You might as vvell plead that private houſes and palaces of Papiſts were to be deſtroyed, becauſe the vnruly Souldiers in the heat of war, did ſometimes deſtroy them alſo. Againe for the overthrow of them in ſome other places, Beza //Reſpōſ. Theod. Be. ad acta colloq. Mōp. part. 2. theſ. 1.avoucheth vponupon his owne knowledge and the teſtimony of the cities, that they were conſtreyned to do it for their ſafety againſt the violatours of publique peace, the ſituation of the temples neceſſarily requiring the ſame. And this is the ſame reaſon that Mr. Loumeau alledged before, as one cauſe of their practiſe in Rochel. And while they were guided by ſuch civil reſpects, this argues no ſcruple of conſcience in the vſe of ſuch temples. 6. Suppoſe that this one Church of Rochel did condemne our vſe of temples, which you are not like to prove; yet th'other Churches in France, and that of Geneva alſo, (as many in this city vponupon their ovvne knowledge do teſtify) do ſtill keep the temples formerly abuſed vntounto popery, for their neceſſary vſe in the ſervice of God. And Rochel being layd in the balance againſt the reſt would be too light, & weak to aboliſh the neceſſary vſe which we have of our temples.