Arrow Against the Separationists, Discourse · Chapter 12 · Section 1
Section. 1.
Hen. Ainſ.OVr 6t. reaſon hath 2. branches, I. That by the deſtruction of Idolies, men are more eaſily drawen to Gods true worſhip, &c. II. By reteining them, they are nouriſhed in ſuperſtition, &c. Gen. 35. 2. King. 18. 2. Chron. 34. Act. 17. & 19. Lev. 13. & 14. with Iude 23.
You anſwer; That which belonged to the temporary diſpenſation under Moſes being ſet apart; the generall equitie of theſe ſcriptures leads us no further, then to aboliſh ſuch moniments of ſuperſtition and corruption as have no neceſsary uſe.
Repl. To your exception about Moſes temporarie diſpenſation, I have ſpoken before. This which you now adde, of no neceſsarie vſe, may in ſome ſenſe be granted: for in deed Chriſtians hauehave no neceſsary vſe of Antichriſts idols or idol Temples, let them therfore periſh with him; as they ſhal, aer. 10.15 Rev. 18.in the time of their viſitation. But if by Neceſſarie, you mean in reſpect of humane pleaſure or profit, as the Lutherans may think they have a neceſsary vſe of popiſh images (which they keep in their Churches) either to adorne their Temples, (which may alſo be pleaded for by Pſal. 24.1. 1. Cor. 10 26. ſeing we may vſe of the plēty of the earth euen for ornament alſo) or to remember the ſaints deceaſed, though they worſhip them not: or, as others think they hauehave a neceſsary vſe of idol Temples, becauſe they would ſpare their purſes, and be at no charge to build other convenient places to worſhip God in: this I iudge to be but a carnal reaſon, and that it ſavoureth not of Gods ſpirit, which throughout the Scriptures condemneth Idols and Idoleies, in reſpect of their bExo. 34.12.13.14.15. Deut. 7.25.26. Ezek. 23.14.16. &c.abomination before God, and ſnare that they are vntounto men. And if this your exception ſhould take place, we ſhould hauehave very few idols deſtroyed. For they that are popiſhly affected, wil finde ſome neceſſarie vſe for eueryevery idol, to mainteine their ſuperſtition. The gentrie may weare the popes hallowed golden crucifixes and other ſacred Iewels for broches on their hatts, & tablets about their necks, and his beads, for ornaments about their hands. The images of their Ladie, and other gods & goddeſſes, they may vſe to bewtify their houſes, yea to adorne the wals and corners of their Churches, as they ſtil continew in the Church windowes. The altar may be vſed for a communion table, the hallowed font, for a veſſel to baptiſe in, as is vſual in Engl. though theſe reformed Churches hauehave doen it away. The Biſhops think they hauehave as neceſſary vſe of their copes & other hallowed veſtiments, as you of your Temples, which many of them by reaſon of their bignes and forme, are fitter a great deale to ſing a maſſe in, then to preach the goſpel. So it wil come to paſse, that all the popes abominations ſhalbe reteined for ſome vſe or other, and idolatrie nouriſhed to the diſhonour of God. If we ſhould expound all the other commandments, as you interpret this concerning idolatrie: God might iustly condemne us as corrupters of his Law, and ſeducers of the people. But let us weigh your perticular exceptions.
Anſwer.
Io. Pa.FIrſt, whereas by way of affirmation, you reply; in deed Chriſtians have no neceſſary vſe of Antichriſts Idols or Idol-temples: I anſwer, 1. If no neceſsary vſe: then is your vſe of them for ſtudy therein and for other purpoſes, the more cō demnable, being idle and vnneceſſary. 2. Theſe temples have ſome neceſſary vſe, becauſe by reteyning of them, that coſt and charges which ſhould be employed in the building of others in their ſtead, may ſerve to ſupply the wāts of many godly poore: Such workes and conſiderations the holy Ghoſt judgeth to be ſTit. 3.14.neceſſary vſes.
Secondly, whereas by way of imprecation & curſing, you pray againſt our temples, wiſhing for the deſtruction of Antichriſt, & of them together, ſaying, let them therfore periſh with him. I anſwer, 1. you do herein worſe then Balaam, who was faine to ſay, tNum. 23.8.How ſhall I curſe, where God hath not curſed? for the law of ceremonies being remooved, you can not ſhew by anywarrant of Scripture that God doth curſe the places formerly abuſed vntounto Idolatry, whē as the Idolatrous vſe thereof is taken away: we ſee on the contrary by experience, and you might ſee that God bleſſeth our vſe of ſuch Temples in all the Reformed Churches, even with that uRom. 15.29.abundance of the bleſsing of the Goſpell of Chriſt, which is there adminiſtred; And therfore we may truely ſay vntounto the Lord concerning your curſe, vvPſ. 109.28.though they curſe, yet thou wilt bleſse. 2. Do you not ſee how you curſe yourſelf in praying for the deſtruction of theſe Temples which you and your people frequent ſo often for divers purpoſes? For what if God ſhould heare your prayer, and while your ſelf are ſitting at your ſtudy in one of theſe Temples, ſhould ſuddenly rayſe a tempeſt and overthrow the temple? ſhould not your blood be now vponupon your owne head that had called for this iudgement? dare you enter into and continue in ſuch a place, againſt which you pray dayly that God would deſtroy it? or are you content to periſh your ſelf, ſo that one of theſe Temples might periſh with you?
Thirdly, whereas by way of prophecy or prognoſticatiō, you foretell the periſhing of theſe Temples, & ſay; as they ſhall, in the time of their viſitation. I anſwer, 1. that place Ier. 10.15. which you alledge for confirmation of your prophecy, ſpeaketh not of Temples but of Idols, and therfore concludeth nothing againſt the place vſed by vsus. 2. If the deſtruction of the Babyloniſh and heathniſh Temples had bene there prophecyed of and foretold, as is in other places the deſtruction even of the private houſes of the Babylonians; yet doth not this ſhew that the like event ſhalbe vntounto all places where Antichriſtian Idolatry hath bene practiſed: for both in reſpect of equitie, there is great difference betwixt Babyloniſh Temples not purged from their Idolatrous vſe; and our Temples that are converted to the lawfull worſhip of the true God; and againe in reſpect of the fact, ſuppoſe our Temples were as vncleane as the Babylonians, yet is not God bound to deale with all ſins alike in this world by executing the ſame iudgements here vponupon all things that are defiled.There is indeed a time of viſitation when xPſ. 102.26. Mat. 5.18.heaven and earth ſhall periſh; and then our temples are like to periſh alſo; but this periſhing ſhewes them to be no more vnlawfull, then other creatures of God which are ſubiect to vanitie in like maner. 3. As for Rev. 18. which chapter you alſo alledge at large for proofe of your prediction in the ruine of our temples; why did you not nominate the verſe and deſcribe your collection from thence, that we might have conſidered the truth and evidence thereof? 4. Do not you remember, how one of your owne fellowſhip and ſociety hath of late time prophecyed and foretold an univerſall maſſacre to come vponupon Chriſtendome; & how he is deceyved, the time being paſt which he had nominated and limited for this event? Let his example warne you to take heed of being ſo raſh in prophecying an vniuerſal maſſacre of our temples.
Fourthly, you ſay if by Neceſſarie, I meane in reſpect of humane pleaſure or proffit: as the Lutheranes may thinke they have a neceſsary vſe of images, which they keep in their Churches, &c. this you judge to be but a carnall reaſon and not to ſavour of Gods ſpirit, &c. Herevnto I anſwer, that by neceſſary vſe, I do not meane ſuch as you ſpeak of in the Lutheranes: but I meane (that which it ſeemes you call ſparing of the purſe) ſuch vſe as ſerves to ſupply the neceſſities of the faithfull, and to ſupport the burden of ſuch as are oppreſſed with poverty and want, whiles the church is not charged with the coſt and labour of ſuch buildings: and with all I meane ſuch a circumſtance of place as is in generall of neceſſary vſe for the aſſembling of people, in as much as the worſhip of God by his people can not be performed conveniently without ſuch helpes of a building. And that this regard of neceſſary vſe is not a carnall reaſon, but ſavouring of Gods ſpirit: it may appeare both by the equity of Gods law even in the old Teſtament when as he would have yHoſ. 6.6. 1. Sam. 21.4 5. &c. Mat. 12.1.7.ceremonies ſome times and in ſome caſes to give place vntounto workes of mercy performed for the neceſsities of his people: & much more after the death of Chriſt, when for the proffit of his people, that their outwardneceſſities, wants & poverty might be the better ſuſteyned and releeved, he wholly zAct. 15.10 Col. 2.14.took away the burdē of his owne ceremoniall lawes. If God would have his ſtatutes and commandements once given concerning his owne holy place and temple to be changed for the neceſſary vſe and proffit of his people: how much more the ſtatutes once given touching other places and temples abuſed to Idolatry?
Fiftly, to prove that the reteyning of our temples in reſpect of neceſſary vſe is but a carnall reaſon, you alledge divers ſcriptures, viz. Exo. 34.12.13.14.15. Deut. 7.25.26. Ezek 23.14.16, &c wherin as you ſay, the ſpirit of God condemneth idols and idoleies, in reſpect of their abomination before God and ſnare that they are vntounto men. I anſwer; that God in his law condemned many things as an abhomination vntounto himſelf and as a ſnare vntounto men, which yet are not now of neceſsity to be aboliſhed as in old time: your owne allegations may lead you to ſee the ſame. 1. In Exod. 34. God allowes no compact or covenant with the Idolaters there mentioned: and this commandement of God as appeares by conference with other places of ſcripture was ſo ſtrict that the aEzra. 10.10.11.12.19.—44. Neh. 13.3.23.30.covenants of mariage with ſuch perſons vvere to be diſſolved and broken, even after Children borne vntounto them in ſuch mariage, that the infidels ſhould not be a ſnare vntounto the people of God. This law, notwithſtanding the ſnare feared of old, is now changed and more liberty granted vntounto Chriſtians, as the b1. Cor. 7.12.13.14.16.Apoſtle ſhewes: but vnderunder Moſes the vnbeleeving Idolatrous wife was not ſanctifyed to the beleeving huſband, neither the vnbeleeving heathniſh huſband ſanctifyed to the beleeving Ieweſſe his wife: Pauls plea would not have ſerved in Ezra his time, when they put away their ſtrange vvives: A tranſgreſſour might not then juſtly have vſed Pauls vvords for reteyning either huſband or vvife: they might not have ſayd; what knoweſt thou, ô wife, whether thou ſhalt ſave thine huſband? or what knoweſt thou, ô man, whether thou ſhalt ſave thy wife? Herein therfore vve ſee plainely that for the neceſſitie and benefit of families, God hath changed his lavv, and taken avvay that reſpect of a ſnare, vvhichwhich he ſo ſeverely commanded of old. 2. In Deut, 7.25.26. God allovves not his people to take the ſilver and gold abuſed vntounto Idolatry: not ſo much as to turne it vntounto their civil vſe, by taking it to themſelves, or bringing it into their houſes; & this in reſpect of the ſnare and abomination you ſpeak of: The tranſgreſſion of this law was the cIoſh. 7.1. &c.deſtruction of Achan and his familye, and a trouble vntounto all Iſrael. But now this law is changed, and the reſpect of the ſnare and the abomination is taken away, as appeareth in the d1. Cor. 10 27.Idolothytes now permitted vntounto our vſe, which heretofore were vnlawfull, as well as the ſilver and gold mentioned in your allegation. 3, as for that place, Ezek. 23.14.16. It doth not appeare that the images there ſpoken of were religious images, but rather civill pictures, images of the Babylonians, ſuch as was the eMat. 22.20.image of Caeſar in his coyne: And therfore were not vnlawfull even in the time of the law, otherwiſe then by immoderate and inordinate vſe: and ſo even many other lawfull things became fPſ. 69.22.a ſnare and a ruine vntounto men. So that the ſnare condemned in your allegations is ſuch, as that the ſtrength and ſtaine thereof depended either vponupon a ceremoniall commandement from vvhichwhich vve are freed; or vponupon an vnlavvfull vſe, which you can not juſtly impute vntounto vsus in the vſe of our temples.
Sixtly, vvhereas you ſay, that if this my exception ſhould take place, we ſhould have very few idols deſtroyed, for they that are Popiſhly affected, will finde ſome neceſſary vſe for every Idol, to mainteine their ſuperſtition. The gentrie may weare the popes hallowed golden crucifixes, and other ſacred Iewels, for broches in their hatts, &c. Herevnto I anſwer, 1. You ought to put difference betvvixt Idols themſelves, and the places vvhere they have bene vvorſhipped, as the gDiſcov. p. 133.marginall note on Barow acknovvledgeth: Theſe you do vniuſtly confound togather at every turne in your reaſoning; ſeing more deteſtation is to be ſhevved againſt the Idols, then againſt their houſes. 2, As for Popiſh Idols, hallowed crucifixes, their ladies images, and ſuch like things converted vntounto ornaments of temples and of the gentry;they are not things of neceſſary vſe in either of thoſe reſpects that I noted before: they are neither neceſſary circumſtances in the worſhip of God; neither doth this kinde of reteyning them help to ſupply the neceſsities of the faithfull: for if theſe golden implements vvere broken quite in peeces and molten againe, the poore and other faithfull men might then aftervvard have as much and more benefit and neceſſary vſe of them then before; but vvith our temples it is quite contrary in both reſpects. 3, though vve may vſe the plenty of the earth even for ornamēt alſo, as you alledge before frō Pſ. 24.1. 1. Cor. 10.26. yet as the Apoſtle ſhevves in the ſame place, vve may alſo better forbeare the vſe of ſuch things whereof vve enioy a plenty; then of other things vvhereof we ſtand in great neceſſitie. As frō this that the earth is the Lords, the Apoſtle h1. Cor. 10 26. with verſ. 28.proves vve may have a lavvfull vſe of ech creature therein: ſo from the fulnes, plenty and variety of creatures, he ſhevves that in ſome caſes vve ſhould forbeare the vſe of one rather then an other: and of what rather then of ſuch vaine, and vnneceſſary ornaments, as you ſpeak of? 4. As for copes and other hallowed veſtments, there is alſo a manifeſt difference betwixt them and our temples: for whatſoever others may think, that ſkilles not, while we ſee that an houſe is of neceſſary vſe in the ſervice of God, & that the ſurplice is but a ſurplus, a ſuperfluous thing of no neceſſary vſe: And hereby you may plainely diſcerne the difference; becauſe not onelyonly that very ſame ſurplice which Papiſts vſed and defiled with their vſe, is vnlawfull: but any other ſurplice newly made for a miniſteriall garment, yea though the forme in ſome part be altered, though it be not conſecrated as the iPontifical. par. 2. de benedictione ſacerdotal. indum.Popiſh veſtments were, yet being of no neceſſary vſe in the ſervice of God, is ſtill vnlawfull: neither do I think that you would willingly weare ſuch an albe: but I hope you vvill not ſay ſo of all temples new made, as of the Zuyder Kerck in this city: And yet if you will argue againſt our temples as againſt a ſurplice: then are we to have no temple at all, but to meet ſub dio vnderunder the welkin; becauſe vve are to have no ſurplice at all. If inyour annotations on the holy ſcriptures you ſhould expound the other commandements of God on this manner, you would yet prove a greater corrupter of his law and ſeducer of his people.