The Observer of Time, Dialogues · Dialogue 4
¶The fowrth Dialoge.
☞The Collocutours. The Temporiſour, Euſebius, and Irenius.
☞Temporiſour.
YF theſe examples of Nycodemus, Ioſeph of Ara…thia, and Naaman the Sirian, the which I, and my ſemblables are accuſtomed to vſe, do not bring vntounto me ſome preſent conſolation, I am vtterly vanquiſhed and ouercome, I know thē no way to eſcape. I cannot tell, howe hereafter wardes to excuſe my ſelfe, neyther towardes God, nor my conſcience. And I doubt greatly that they beyng narowly ſcanned and conſidered, wyll lyttle ſerue for my purpoſe. For here before when I began to vſe them for myne excuſe, me thought alwayes they ſemed vntounto me to weake, to defend this my diſſimulacion: yet we dyd alwayes alledge them agaynſte thoſe that dydde reproue oure doynges, fearinge to leaue oure wickedneſſe vncouered and naked. This is the cuſtome of oure fleſhe,The cuſtome of the fleſhe. for ſhe can not abyde the reprofe of ſhame, althoughe ſhe do both feele and knowe hyr nakednes, but ſeketh all poſſible meanes to couer the ſame. But yonder me thinke I ſee comming both Euſebius and Ireneus. I am happy that I dyd accō pany my ſelf with them, for they are both tractable and gentle: and therefore I wyll not be affrayde to purſew this matter both boldly & freely. What my frendes are ye come already? I came but euen nowe hether to prepare thys place for your comminge.
¶Ireneus.
There neded no ſuch diligēce, for the place of it ſelf is very commodious and pleaſaunt.
¶Temporiſour.
That is trew. But herein I thought it good to ſhow my good wyl towardes you. But thou Euſebius, as farre as I can perceyue, yu comeſt not vnarmed.
☞Euſebius.
Not ſo muche as hauinge about me a little knyfe, neyther doe I prepare my ſelfe vntounto the warre, but vntounto a louing and frendly collatiō.
¶Temporiſour.
And yet me thinke thou arte not withoute weapons for the ſame, for eyther I doe abuſe my ſelfe, or els the boke that thou haſte in thy hande, is a ſworde of the ſpyryte.
¶Euſebius.
Now I vnderſtand what thou meaneſt Tē poriſour, I was yeſterdaye lykewiſe armed wt theſame, although as then I had not this bugget, the which I hauehave now brought, therby the more dyligently to examyne by the ſcriptures the examples of Nycodemus, Ioſeph, and Naaman the Syrian.
¶Temporiſour.
Theſe weapons Ireneus, were more meter for your Biſhoppes, thē thoſe which they hauehave vſed of late yeres to murther ye ſhepe of chriſt.
☞Ireneus.
It is ſo, I cannot excuſe theyr doynges in that behalf. I do often lamēt with my ſelf this miſerable corrupcion & alteracion of the eccleſiaſtical order, in beholdinge oure fleſhly Biſſhops who ought to be ſpirituall Paſtours, to become wolues in the ſtede of ſhepeherdes: & lyons and lyke vntounto all other cruell kynde of beaſtes, as theyr armes & badges declare the ſame. And where as they oughte to be ſeynge biſhoppes, they are become ſo thorowly blynd that they may be better called * Epiſcotes,Epiſcoti, is aſmuch to ſaye as obſcured & darkned thē *Epiſcopi is as much to ſay as ſpeculatinge & ſeynge Biſhops.Epiſcopes: and wheras they oughte to be catholiques, they ar Cacolijcques, that is to ſay: cruell or euyll wolues. In ſtede of eccleſiaſticall perſons, they are become ſeculer Princes, and Lordes, and in ſtede of trew doctors, they are become perfect troublers.
☞Euſebius.
When we do reprehende theſe vyces wyth innumerable other, through ye which ye church of Chriſt is deſtroyed, thē are we by thoſe Biſhoppes condemned for heretikes, and iudged to ye fyre, but now tyme ſerueth not to bewayle thoſe thinges, as alſo we ſhall profyte nothing therin:Math. v. for ſalte ones beynge corrupted cannot be reſtored to perfection agayne. The Lorde wyll come ſhortely into iudgement, and reken with thoſe wicked ſeruauntes to theyr eternal damnacion.
¶Temporiſour.
Let vsus refarre thoſe people vntounto the iudgemente of God: and yf it pleaſe thee, Euſebie, I praye declare to what ende theſe examples of Nicodemus, Ioſeph, and Naamā the Syrian tende vntounto: the which, not onelyonly I my ſelf but alſo all moſt all other doe alledge for their excuſe, namelye thoſe that for feare of puniſhmente of the hygher powers doe go vntounto the papiſticall ſeruices.
☞Euſebius.
I am right well content. But declare fyrſte of al, howe you do alledge theſe examples for your purpoſe and profyte.
¶Temporiſour.
Wheras for feare of the wicked, we diſſemble our opinion touchinge the papiſticall religion, in communicating with them at the ſame: we thinke we may lawfully doe it, and oughte not therof to be reprehended as of an vnlawfull fact: ſeyng that it is manyfeſt that the like hath bene done by dyuerſe godlye men before vsus,Iohn. iij. as witneſſeth the Scriptures, who as we rede,Nicodemus. were neyther reproued nor condemned therfore. Nicodemus was not ignoraunt of ye trueth, and he loued very well Ieſus Chriſte, who alſo had him in good reputacion, and yet all this notwithſtāding, he fearing the Iewes dyd diſſemble theſe thinges, neyther dyd he withdrawe him ſelfe from the company of the enemies of chriſt.Iohn. xix. Ioſeph. The lyke thing is mencioned of Ioſeph of Aramathia, who as ſayth ye ſcriptures was a ſecret diſciple of Ieſus chriſt, & yt for feare of the Iewes, amōgeſt whō he liued. It is lykewyſe ſpecifyed of Naamā ye Siriā. That the Prophete Elizeus dyd graunte hym leaue,4. Reg. 5. Naaman that he beyng in the Temple of Remmō before ſtraunge Goddes, for the aſſiſtaunce of his Kyng, to knele downe, notwithſtanding yt by an excellent myracle, he was lately come to the knowledge of one only trew God: yf theſe men mighte then lyue ſo withoute offence, I would gladly vnderſtand from thee, wherfore theyr examples, doeth nothing helpe our matter? They kept theyr fayth ſecrete in their hart, and outwardlye dyd communicate with thoſe whō they knew to be aduerſaryes to the truth. They dyd thē in al thinges like as we do now: I meane, I and my ſemblables. Yf this diſſimulatiō (as thou calleſt it) did not hinder their ſaluation, wherefore then is it damnable vntounto vsus? is God chaunged, in condemning now, the thing that he before ſuffred in his children? I thinke it not to be trewe. For euen as he is alwayes one, and immutable, euen ſo cannot his determinacion chaunge more at one tyme, then at another.
☞Ireneus.
Thou reaſoneſt ſtrongely, Temporiſour.
¶Euſebius.
Thou thinkeſt ſo: but hauehave a lyttle pacience and thou ſhalt iudge otherwyſe.
¶Temporiſour.
Myne argumentes are ſuche Euſebie, as dyuers doe thinke them very ſtronge.
¶Euſebius.
Becauſe that they are pleaſaunte vntounto the ſy…efull fleſhe, therefore do ye gredelye imbrace them, and deſire more that they might be fyrme and ſtronge, then that ye thinke them ſo in dede. For eyther I am greatly abuſed, or els ye do wittingly deceyue your ſelues. But now let vsus come to youre argumentes, and to begin withall, I do admoniſhe you of one thing: that is, that all thoſe that vſe to alledge theſe argumētes for theyr excuſe, are not in one lyke ſtate and condicion, although they do acknowledge theſame trueth that we doe. With the harte ye louelove the goſpel of God, but outwardly ye communicate with the papiſtes: hytherto ye agree together, but on the other ſide there is a difference, for ſome of you hauehave publykely renounced the papiſme, and hauehave theſe certaine yeres freely approued the doctryne of the Goſpel, as I, and other hauehave done. But nowe temptacion beyng come, they leaue the euāgelike churches and retourne to the papiſme and papiſtrye, to thende they may lyue the more without daunger in this world: and thou arte Temporiſour, one of this company. The other ſort, although in theyr hart they acknowledge the trueth,Inglande cannot pleat this excuſe. yet dyd they neuer publykely confeſſe the ſame nor maynteyne it, neyther yet renounced the exteriour communication with the papiſtes, but ſtyll perſeuer in theſame hytherto, of whiche ſorte there is in the world no ſmall noumbre: & namely in this lād of Almany. Who is he that doeth not now perceyue the great difference yt is betwixt theſe two ſortes of people, and that to no purpoſe, they doe both alledge for them ſelues the examples of Nycodemus, Ioſeph, and Naaman the Syrian? And fyrſte, as touchinge thee, Temporiſour, and thoſe that are lyke vntounto thee: who hauehave preſently forſakē the trew religiō,The trew Image of Ingland. ye which ye hauehave publikely mayntayned, and are now reuoulted & tourned backwarde into theſame myre and puddle, frō the which ſometyme ye were yſſewed out, & delyuered. Truelye theſe exāples of Nicodemus & of the other two, do nothing ſerue for your excuſe, nether do ye in any reſpecte imitate theyr doynges. For yf theſe exāples might ſerue for the defence of any diſſimulacion, yet ſhould it not ſerue for your ſyde: but rather for thē of ye other party. Who, as they did neuer publikely profeſſe the goſpell, ſo can they not be accuſed of any reuoulting or renoūcing in that behalf. The thing is apparaūt & without cōtradictiō. For whē as Nicodemus & Ioſeph dyd diſſemble theyr fayth for feare of ye Iewes, they were but newly come vntounto this doctrine, hauing the ſame onelyonly inwardly incered in theyr hartes, without ether as yet forſakinge the iudeiſme, or els publikely ioyning thēſelues to the fayth ful cōgregaciō of Chriſt. What lyke thing find they now here in the example of theſe two mē wherby thei may iuſtely excuſe their doinges: thoſe (I ſaye) that of late dyd publykelye auouche the Goſpell and are nowe reuoulted from theſame, in tourninge to the papiſticall ſuperſticions, as dogges vntounto theyr vomete? And that which I hauehave ſpoken of Nicodemus and Ioſeph maye alſo be veryfyed of Naaman the Syrian. Who beynge a Panim was newly come vntounto the knowledge of God, with out euer beynge vnited vntounto the ſociete of the people of God and theyr religion: yea, he was altogether newe and younge in his fayth and in the knowledge of god, who had healed him. Conſydre now I praye you, howe much thys his example ſerueth to couer the facte of oure diſſembling Chriſtians: who not onelyonly for the ſpace of many yeares hauehave bene perfectely inſtructed in the trueth, by ſincere doctryne, but alſo vnyted and knytte vntounto the ſame by holye Sacramentes purely myniſtred? Is ther any apperaunce or lykelyhode herein?
☞Ireneus.
As farre as I perceyue by thy communicacion, they defende them ſelues very poorely.
¶Temporiſour.
I harken, and vnderſtande all.
☞Euſebius.
I pray thee my frend Tēporiſour, tel me by thi cōſcience. In the beginning whē thou didſt tourne frō the papiſme, dydſt thou neuer call to thy remembraunce theſe examples? werre thou not then as ingenious and wytty to ſowe figge leaues together to couer thy ſelf, as thou art nowe? And wherefore? for (thou ſayeſt) it was not then nedefull: for the reuoultinge frō the papiſme, required no ſuch defence and coueringe. But nowe yf ye mighte retourne agayne to the papiſme withoute ſynne by outwarde communicacion, contentynge youre ſelfes to beleue onelye wythe the harte, ye mighte more iuſtelye hauehave remayned in the papiſme withoute forſaking theſame,A greate cōdēnaciō to al thē yt hauehave refuſed ye papiſme, and now ioine thē ſelues ther vntounto agayne. in reſeruing your fayth ſecretely in your hart, and aſwell might ye hauehave defended then youre diſſimulatiō by theſe examples, as ye do now. Who compelled you to forſake your auncient religion? Truely the feare wherewith preſentlye ye are aſtonied, doth moue ye more to retourne agayne to the ſuperſticions ones forſaken, then dyd at the firſt, the charitie and deſyre of vniō moue you to come to the trueth: in aſmuche as agaynſt your conſcience ye are nowe declyned agayne to your former communicacion, of ſuperſticions and falſe ſeruices.
¶Temporiſour.
Thoſe then are not culpable, that hauehave not as yet forſaken the outward ſociete and felowſhip of the papiſtes, although they hauehave vnderſtanding of the trueth, but do perſeuer ſtyll in this communicacion, the which not withſtanding they do not allow in theyr hartes?
¶Euſebius.
I ſaye not ſo Temporiſour: But rather by this communicacion do labore to admoniſhe you, how vnaptly ye do applye to your behofe theſe examples of Nycodemus and Ioſeph.Ingliſhe diſſemblers can not iuſtly alledge ye exāple of Nycodemus for theyr excuſe. As touchīg the Nicodemiſtes herein they differ from you, that although they be not voyde of ſinne, yet (I ſuppoſe,) that they doe not ſynne ſo greuouſly as ye doe. Wherfore to the ende ye may more playnely perceyue that your facte cānot be excuſed by theſe examples. I wil leaue you, and examyne the cauſe of thoſe that more iuſtly may be called Nicodemiſtes, then you. Who, yf they cannot be excuſed by theſe examples, as it ſhall notably appeare: thē may we eaſely deſerne and iudge how litle theſame ſerueth for your defence. For yf theyr doynges be damnable, & can fynde none excuſe by theſe examples, there is no man ſo voyde of vnderſtanding that doeth not eaſelye perceyue, that much leſſe is your facte excuſable, and cannot be compared to the examples of Nicodemus, Ioſeph, and Naaman the Sirian.
¶Temporiſour.
I perceyue well to what ende thou pretendeſt Euſebie. Thou ſhalt do me great pleaſure to examine this matter narowly.
☞Euſebius.
Let vsus fyrſt conſydre the doynges of Nycodemus and Ioſeph.Where to tende the examples of Nicodemus & Ioſeph. In theſe examples there is ſomethinge to be reprehended, ſomethinge to be excuſed, and ſomethinge to be prayſed and commended. This thing is to be reprehended, that they fearing the Iewes, more thē God, durſt not confeſſe the trueth which they dyd know, and durſt not ioyne them ſelues to Chriſt amōgeſt his faythful flocke, but hiding almoſt theyr fayth, dyd yet communicate with the enemies of Chriſt. Confeſſeſt yu this poynt Temporiſour?
☞Temporiſour.
Yea: proceade.
☞Euſebius.
This thing in their doynges was excuſable: that the ſeruyces whereat they dyd communicate were not the ordinaunces of men, but of God, and therefore not vtterly to be diſpyſed as thinges odious and ſuperſticious, and all though the tyme dyd approche wherein they ſhould be aboliſhed: yet, as then it was not manifeſted & openly knowē, but remayned ſo obſcured & hyd, that many yeares after the reuelaciō of the goſpel, the multitude of the faythfull in Ieruſalē were yet deteyned vnderunder theſe legall obſeruacions, as it playnely appeareth in the boke of the Actes the .xi. Chap. Thou agreeſt to theſe thinges alſo Temporiſour?
¶Temporiſour.
I cannot gayne ſaye it.
☞Euſebius.
Fyrſt of al then, this thing in thē was worthy prayſe, for that in theyr hartes they dyd approue and allowe the veritie, which other princes dyd impunge and condemne: furthermore alſo for that they dyd not conſent and agre wt the Phariſeis in theyr Sinagoges, conſulting agaynſt Chriſt, but dyd withſtande theyr determinaciōs to the vttermoſt of theyr powers. As S. Luke mencioneth of Ioſeph of Aramathia in his .xxiij. Chap. and S. Iohan of Nicodemus in his .vij. Chapter. Thyrdely when as the maieſtie and glorie of the goſpell of God, ſemed to the outward appearaunce to be vtterly ſubdued and ouerthrowen: to wyte, whē as Chriſt was crucified & dead, & his Apoſtles, the one hauing betrayed him, the other denied him, and the reſt forſaken him, al this not with ſtanding, theſe worthy perſons wtout any maner of diſſimulaciō did thē boldly declare both to Pilate, & to the highe Preſtes & Phariſeis, theyr fayth & confidence, in him whō they had crucifyed by the begging of his body, & buryinge theſame ſo honorablye as was poſſible, Canſt thou impunge, or haſte thou any thinge to replye againſt theſe thinges, Temporiſour?
¶Temporiſour.
Nothing at all. But do meruayle greately, where about thou goeſt?
☞Ireneus.
That is eaſye to be perceyued.
☞Euſebius.
Harken, and I wyl tel thee whether I pretende: we hauehave peruſed and conſydered what it is of the example of Nicodemus & Ioſeph, wherby dyuers thinke to couer ye diſſimulaciō of theyr religion,Nicodemiſtes. whō we wyl call Nicodemiſtes, becauſe it ſhall not nede often to vſe anye circumlocucion. This example conteyneth thre thinges. The firſt is, reprehenſible, the ſecond excuſable, and the thyrd commendable. Now I demaund of thee Tēporiſour, which of theſe thinkeſt thou, that a man fearing God, oughte to folowe?
¶Temporiſour.
The aunſwere is ready: to wyte, the thyrd, the which eueryevery chriſtiā harte acknowledgeth to be onelyonly commendable, both before God & man.
☞Euſebius.
Thou aunſwereſt well. For to this end ſerueth all examples, namelye, to ſtyre vp in vsus a certayne imitacion and folowing. But we may not imitate and folowe theſe thinges that nether are of them ſelues, nor yet cannot bee in vsus commendable and prayſe worthye. And therfore it behoueth vsus to vſe a great diſcreciō in folowing the examples of Saynctes, to deſerne betwene the doynges that are commendable, and thoſe that are vyciouſe & culpable: hauinge nede of pardon by the grace and mercy of God in Ieſu Chriſt. For it were a prepoſterous & pernitious imitaciō that a Publicane ſhould alledge for his excuſe the exāple of S. Mathew: or an adulterer, the example of Dauid: a reuoulter and denyer of the truth, the example of S. Peter: or a dronkarde the dronkenes of Noah, for to couer theyr ſynnes by the examples and dedes of the Sayntes. Why rather doe they not folowe the conuerſion of S. Mathew, the great repentaunce of Dauid and Peter, & ſobriete of Noah? But let vsus ſe what thing the Nicodemiſtes do folowe in the exā ple of Nicodemus, and for what purpoſe they doe alledge theſame. Truely they doe it for nothing els, but thereby to excuſe theyr facte: but that thing nedeth no excuſe, that deſerueth no blame, but is worthy prayſe: as when they doe receyue into theyr hartes, with them, the veritie of Chriſte, the whiche the Princes of thys world do ſo extremely perſecute, and do not by any meanes agree and conſent with thē to ſubdue & ſuppreſſe theſame. But herein they pretend theyr excuſe, in that they fearing mē more then God, do not vnitie and ioyne them ſelues publikely to the truth, according to theyr faith and knowledge, in renouncing and forſakinge the papiſticall ſeruyces, which they condemne in theyr hartes: but by a wicked diſſimulation do communicate at theſame agaynſt theyr conſciēces. And for to excuſe this theyr ſimulatiō, they do alledge the examples of Nicodemus & Ioſeph, not in that thinge, that they dyd worthy prayſe, but in that thing, wherin they ſynned: namely in theyr diſſimulatiō and feare of man. As yf the ſynnes of the Sayntes, mighte ſerue to excuſe oures. Vnderſtandeſt thou Tē poriſour?
☞Temporiſour.
Yea.
☞Euſebius.
Agreeſt thou alſo there vntounto?
¶Temporiſour.
Truely I do not allowe thoſe, that doe rather alledge for examples the thing that is wicked, then that which is cōmendable: but for all that I thinke it cannot be denyed, but that we may excuſe the infirmitie of our fayth, by the infirmitie of the Sayntes, without being iudged and condemned for wicked, more thē they: or as people hauing renoūced the knowē veritie, becauſe we dare not publykelye confeſſe theſame.
¶Euſebius.
Thou acknowledgeſt and confeſſeſt the infyrmitie of fayth that reſteth in the Nicodemiſtes: but now is it mete & conuenient I pray the, that weakelinges, do alledge the infirmite of the Sayntes, therby to excuſe theyr ſynne & infyrmitie? or rather oughte they not to accuſe them ſelues, and with plentie of teares and all humilitie to hauehave recourſe vntounto the throne of grace, thereby to obtayne remiſſion of theyr ſinnes, and confirmacion of fayth?
¶Temporiſour.
Thy reaſon is ſtrōge, Euſebie, I cannot replye agaynſt it.
☞Irenie.
Truely Euſebie, I do not heare theſe thinges vnwillingly.
☞Euſebie.
Lette vsus conſydre furthermore thys one thing: that Nicodemus and Ioſeph dyd communicate at the ſeruyces and ceremonies of ye lawe, according vntounto the commaundemente of God: in the which ſeruyces there was no impiete, ſuperſticion nor falſyte: but the Nicodemiſtes of our tyme, do communicate at the papiſtrye, beyng full of the falſe ſeruyces of the ſayntes departed, of Aungelles and of Idols, with an infinite noumbre of other ſuperſticions, that dayly prouoke vntounto wrath the longe pacience and benignitie of almightie GOD. Wherefore I praye thee Temporiſour, what agreement is there thinkeſt thou, betwene the doynges of Nichodemus and Ioſeph, & oure counterfeyte Nicodemiſtes?
¶Temporiſour.
In myne opiniō, none at all, for I perceyue now wel ynough, the greate difference that is betwene them. But for all that dyuerſe men, (therby the better to couer theyr fact) do apply the thing that is worthye reprehenſion in the papiſtical ſeruices vntounto a good vſe, ſayinge: yt the principall effecte thereof is dyrected vntounto God, and to his ſonne Chriſte. And although there be dyuers humayne inuencions to much ſuperſticiouſli added thereunto, yet for al that the trew and perfect ſeruice remayneth whole and ſound.
☞Euſebius.
Howe maye that be?
¶Temporiſour.
Paraduenture, Irenius can tell thee better thē I: for I neuer had them as yet in ſuch eſtimacion as I thought them worthy, to be commended to memorye.
☞Ireneus.
Aſmuch as I can remembre, I wyll reſyte. Fyrſt of al they ſaye,Of ye papiſticall baptiſme and affyrme that the papiſticall baptiſme maye be ſupported as it is miniſtred, becauſe that the ſubſtaunce of the ſame: to wyte, the worde and the water remayneth, notwithſtandinge the ſuperſticions annexing thereunto of oyle, ſpittle, creame, ſalte, candle, cryſome, and exorcyſme: not withſtanding alſo the latyne interrogations after the ſymbole of the Apoſtles, and the ignoraunte aūſweres of the witneſſes or god fathers there preſent in the behalf of the chylde, beynge all together done in a foreyne language not vnderſtanded of the aſſyſtaunces. As tonchinge the Maſſe,the maſſe they ſaye that they maye go there vntounto without ſynne, for although it be repleniſhed with diuerſe ſuperſticious ceremonies inuented by the biſhops: yet notwithſtādinge it doth ſtyl retayne the principall effecte of the inſtitucion of Chriſt: to wyte, the Sacrament of the bodye and bloude of the Lord. As concerning Idols, they aūſwere,Of ydols yt they paſſe not of the Images of wood, of ſtone, of golde, nor of ſiluer. The which they knowe well ynough, by the worde of God, ought not to be worſhipped: neyther are they ſet vp, to be ſerued & honoured, but onelyonly to helpe the memorie, to the ende that the laye and ignoraunt people maye be prouoked by the remēbraūce of the ſayntes, to imitate theyr liues.Of ſinginge. As touching their chaū ting and ſinging, they lytle paſſe and regarde, wherfore or to what end the papiſtes do ſing: for they in the meane tyme do pray vntounto God, according to theyr fayth in commending themſelues vntounto him. This is almoſt the effect of al that euer thy alledge for theyr excuſe.
¶Euſebius.
Yf it were not for the preſent queſtion that I hauehave to aūſwere, I would Ireneus, examine theſe theyr particular excuſes, and proue manifeſtly, that they in ſo doyng, doe ſynne more greuouſly then any other. But thou Temporiſour, knoweſt thou not that theſe theyr excuſes are moſt deteſtable and wicked?
☞Temporiſour.
I confeſſe. I know the ſame to be moſt trew.
☞Euſebius.
Another tyme, the lyke occaſion beyng myniſtred, I wyll declare my iudgemente in that behalfe.It is neceſſari for vsus to knowe wt what churche we do communicate. In the meane tyme cōſidre a lytle this one thinge. Theſe fooles paſſe nothinge at al… with what Church they do communicate, ney…ther with what Prelates, and Preſtes they d… aſſociate them ſelues, at theyr deuyne ſeruices… They thinke it ſufficiēt to reteyne ye ſubſtaūc… thereof, although the appendaunces annexed thereunto be manifeſtly wicked. For whereto ſerueth all theyr ceremonies in theyr Temple, but onelye to ſeduce theyr auditore, in makinge them lyke vntounto themſelfes: to wytte, ſimoniacques, fornicatours, ydle bellies, …koffers, and ſlaughtermē of ye poore ſhepe of Chriſt, beyng condemned by theyr owne decrees, that whoſoeuer heareth the maſſe of ſuch a one, he committeth moſt abhominable and greuous ydolatrie, nether do they paſſe any thing at all of yt which is ſpoken by the mouth of the prophete. I hauehave hated the congregation of the vngodly: Neyther wyll I ſytte downe with the wycked. But let vsus leaue them there, and retourne to our matter. I praye thee now Temporiſour tell me, is this example of Nicodemus & Ioſeph ſufficiently examined, or deſireſt thou yet to know any other thing therein?
¶Temporiſour.
Nomore, for this preſent.
¶Euſebius.
Lette vsus come nowe then to the example of Naaman the Syrian.Naaman
¶Temporiſour.
We thinke our ſelues to hauehave herein a great ſtaye.
¶Euſebius.
Let vsus conſydre now, whether it ſerueth any thing for your purpoſe, or no. Let vsus ſe the ſtorye which is in the .iiij. boke of the Kinges, the .v. Chapter. This example is alſo partelye commendable, partely excuſable, and partelye reprehenſible: it is cōmendable, in that he doth not attribute ye power of his myraculous healing of his leproſye, nether vntounto the water, nether vntounto Eliſeus: but vntounto the onelye God of Iſrael. And furthermore he dyd immediatlye acknowledge and cōfeſſe, that there was none other God, but the God of Iſrael: by this confeſſion reprouing all other Goddes, as vayne and falſe. And thyrdly in that he proteſted and purpoſed to do no more ſacrifice vntounto none other Goddes, but onelyonly vntounto the Lorde, in vtterly renouncing the ſuperſticious ſeruyces of al ſtraūge goddes, the which he had ſerued in tyme paſt, in aſmuch as he was thē fully perſwaded, yt they were no Goddes, but ye workes of mens hādes. Theſe are his doynges, where in he is to be cōmended & prayſed, beſyde that he dyd not ſhowe him ſelfe ingrate & vnthākefull towardes the Prophete. This is excuſable in his fact, in that he requyreth to hauehave the burthen of two moylles, of the earth of Iſrael, for to make an aulter, vpō the which he mighte ſacrifice vntounto the god of Iſrael. God truly hath no regarde vntounto thoſe thinges. But in aſmuch as in that tyme the people ſerued God by outwarde ſacrifyces, thys good man knewe not howe to ſhowe forth hys fayth and newe religion of hys harte, then by doyng ſo as he ſaw it requyſyte amongeſte the Iſraelytes. But thys is reprehenſible,Vnderſtā de this ſo farre, as that he could not dwel and ſerue him ther, with out offending of ye Lorde. that he hauing acknowledged and confeſſed one onelyonly trewe GOD, dyd not forthwith withdrawe hym ſelfe, from the courte and ſeruyce of hys King and mayſter: but (remayning ſtyl in hys eſtate) dyd his accuſtomed ſeruyce towardes the Kyng: yea, and that namelye in the Temple, where as ſtraūge Goddes were worſhypped, the which aboue all other thinge he oughte to hauehave deteſted and abhorred, conſyderinge hys former proteſtacion and promyſe. This faulte alſo he hym ſelfe acknowledged and confeſſed in hys facte. For marke what he ſayd vntounto the Prophete. There is one thing, for the which I deſyre thee to praye the LORDE for thy ſeruaunte, that when my mayſter goeth into the Temple of Remmon for to worſhippe, and he leaninge vponupon myne arme, yf I doe worſhyppe alſo, that the LORDE wyll be mercyfull vntounto his ſeruaunt, becauſe of this thing. Theſe wordes declare euydentlye, that he dyd knowe, that he coulde not wythoute offence, from thence forthe bowe hys knee in the Temple of Remmon: no, not for the ſeruyce of the Kynge hys mayſter, in aſmuche as he had proteſted before to worſhyppe none other, but the one onelyonly trew GOD of Iſrael: and therefore he deſyred the Prophete, that he woulde praye to God for him. He did not as then thorowly purpoſe and determyne wyth him ſelfe to doe ſo:Nota. that is, to worſhyppe in the Temple, but fearinge, leaſte he ſhoulde not be ſuffered to exempte hym ſelfe from hys offyce, he ſayd not, I wyll worſhyppe: but, yf I doe worſhyppe in the Temple of Remmon, that is to ſaye: yf I cannot relinquiſſhe and forſake myne offyce. Alſo I vnderſtande thys ſeruice of hys to bee an inclynacion and ſubmiſſion that he vſed towardes the Kinge, and not a ſeruyce that he purpoſed to doe vntounto ſtraunge Goddes: which thing is eaſye to be vnderſtanded by the circumſtaunce of the text, for he did not ſaye abſolutely, yf I do worſhip in the Tē ple of Remmon: but, when that my Lorde the Kyng doeth entre for to worſhip, etc. The Ebrew worde, which we call (worſhippe) ſignifyeth properlye, to inclyne and bowe the knee. This good faythful man had now no deſyre to worſhip any more the God Remmon, but for aſmuche as he knew that it was not ſufficient, to abſtayne onelye from the worſhippinge of ſtraunge Goddes in his harte, oneleſſe he dyd alſo abſtayne from all outwarde appearaunce of adoration; therefore he aſketh pardon of the ſame, praying that the Lorde would diſpence with him in his facte. Theſe thinges are ſo manifeſt in this hyſtorie, that eueryevery one that readeth it, doeth forthwith perceyue it, excepte it be the Nicodemiſtes. Now I pray thee, Temporiſour, what thing is there herein that maye ſerue for thy defence, and other thy felowes?
☞Temporiſour.
This thing truely maketh for vsus, in that, all though he did acknowledge the trew God, yet neuertheleſſe, he fearing to offend his Kynge, dyd accordinge to his accuſtomed maner, (all though it were nowe agaynſte his wyll) worſhip in the Temple of Remmon in aſſiſting at vnlawfull ſeruyces.
☞Euſebius.
But that is not certaynly knowen whether he dyd ſo, or no▪ For he ſayd: yf I worſhip in ye Temple of Remmon. And yet ye conclude that he dyd as welworſhip after his conuerſion as he dyd before: what maner of conſequence is this? (becauſe he ſay dyf I do worſhip) therby to conclude that he dyd worſhip▪ But I admyt he dyd worſhippe: yet were … but a … reprehenſible: the which, as I hauehave declared before, yt ought not to alledge any example of any reprehenſible facte of any Saync…e, to imitate & folow theſame. And yf ye wyl all gates be the folowers of the thing that is reprehenſible, at leaſt wayes ioyne this alſo therunto, (pray ye the Lord to pardon youre diſſimulacion,) but ye cannot doe that, oneleſſe fyr…te of all ye confeſſe the faulte, and then ſorowe earneſtlye in repentaunce: but this laſt part… hindereth you greatly to aſke pardō, for ye your ſelfes know that ye ought not to hope for pardon of anye ſynne, with…t repentinge the …, and yf ye dyd vnfaynedly repent it then would ye indeuour your ſelues to leaue it.
¶Temporiſour.
We extem… this fault (yf at leaſtwyſe there be any) to be very lighte and tollerable, and to be amongeſt the noūbre of the ſynnes, that are called veniall.
☞Euſebius.
Ye do then … your ſynnes, whē that ye cannot all together couer them.we ought not to couer oure offences. But howe much better were it to waye them a litle more, to the ende ye mighte the rather be occaſioned thereby to leaue your faultes, …nd more ſurely obtayne pardon for the ſame? It is not the propertie of a noble and faythfull harte, to ex… nuate and mitigate his owne faultes.
¶Temporiſour.
But the Prophete him ſelf dyd not make ſo much a doe aboute this matter, as I perceyue thou doeſt.
☞Euſebius.
How ſo?
☞Temporiſour.
Open the boke, and reade therein, what aū ſwere he made vntounto him.
☞Euſebius.
I wyll reade it. The texte ſayth thus, (vntounto whō he ſaid: Go in peace.) What thing gathereſt thou hereof?
¶Temporiſour.
What? That the Prophete dyd not iudge, that Naaman ſhould ſynne, yf for the fauoure of his mayſter he dyd worſhyp in the Temple of Remmon, orels that his ſynne was ſo ligh… and venial, that God would eaſelye pardō the ſame▪
¶Euſebius.
This is your expoſicion, becauſe it pleaſeth you beſt, in aſmuch as it ſemeth to permit your ſinnes to remayne vnpuniſhed. But I pray the my frende Temporiſour, what did this Syriā demaund of the Prophete?
¶Temporiſour.
That he would pray vntounto the Lord for him that he would pardon him, yf euer he did worſhyp in the Temple of Remmon.
☞Euſebius.
What aunſwered the Prophete?
¶Temporiſour.
Thou hardeſt it euen now. Go (ſayd he) in peace: the which wordes importe a plaine conſentement.
¶Euſebius.
Yea forſoth, to that which he demaunded. He aunſwereth not concerninge the pardon, which is only in the handes of God, but onelyonly concerning his prayer: to were, that he would praye vntounto the Lord for him, according to hys requeſte. So that we cannot hereby conclude, that ſuch kynd of worſhipping ſhould be voyd of ſinne. The which thing, yf it had bene trew, aſſure your ſelfe, the Prophete would playnelye hauehave tolde him theſame, to thende that he ſhould make no conſcience of ſynne in ye, where in there was no ſynne.
¶Temporiſour.
In this poynt I agree with thee.
¶Euſebius.
Thou ſeeſte then, that there is ſynne, in ſo doyng.
¶Temporiſour.
I confeſſe it.
☞Euſebius.
But yu eſtemeſt it to be ſuch, as the lord wyll eaſely pardon the ſame?
¶Temporiſour.
Euen ſo ſemeth to ſignifye the conſentement of the Prophete.
¶Euſebius.
It behoueth vsus diligentelye to conſydre in the perſonne of this Syrian, certayne circumſtaunces and cauſes, (which diffre greatly frō you,) which alſo moued the Prophet to accord ſo eaſely vntounto him his demaund, in ſuffering him to departe in peace. The which nothing agreeth wt your diſſimulacion, although you do alledge this exāple neuer ſo oftē, thereby to couer your ſynful ypocriſie withall.
☞Temporiſour.
Which are they…
☞Euſebius.
I hauehave touched them partelye here before. Fyrſt he was a ſtraunger, a Syrian, a Panim, and one that was in high eſtate & greate reputacion with his Kynge and countrey,A compariſon betwene Naaman and oure Temporiſours. & newly come to the acknowledge of God: yea, he was a new and tender plant in the fayth of one onelye trew God, and was not as yet vnyted and ioyned with the people of God by any Sacramentes, wherby he could not, nor ought not to be burthened wt ſo great & wayghtye thinges, as thoſe that were more ſtronger and perfect: beyng inſtructed and noriſhed of long tyme in the trew fayth amongeſte the people of God. Furthermore he dyd proteſte and ſweare that he would neuer ſerue more any ſtraūge Gods, but the onelye God of Iſraell: in teſtimonye wherof, he toke the burthen of two …oylles, of the earth of that laud, for to make therwith an aulter vntounto the God of Iſrael: the which thing the Prophete would not a permitted and ſuffered an Iſraelit… to hauehave done, in aſmuche as it was not lawfull for a Iewe to ſacrifice vntounto God in any other place, thē in yt which he had appointed and choſen. Wherfore as vntounto a Pany… & not vntounto … Iſraelite: he permitted vntounto him that thing, wh…h he would not hauehave gra… ̄ ted vntounto an Iſraelite. For the Prophete exte…d it a greate …rdnes in the Syrian, that in condemning all other ſtraunge Goddes, he had acknowledged & confeſſed the onelyonly trewe god of Iſrael, in proteſting to ſerue him only. It was not (I ſaye) withoute a cauſe that the Prophete dyd ſo greatlye exteme theſe beginninges in the conuerſion of a Panim. And that as touching the reſte, he did ſo well incourage him, promyſing to demaund of God pardō for him. I pray thee Temporiſour, what wouldeſt thou do, yf that ſome great Lorde out of Turkye, for the lyke occaſion came hyther amōgeſt vsus: and he, by ſome lyke myracle beyng cōuerted to the chriſtian faythe, and to the acknowledginge and confeſſinge of one onelye Ieſus Chriſte, the onelyonly ſonne of God, and onelyonly redemer of mankynde: and then would proteſt & ſweare, that frō thence forth he woulde cōtemne the Mahometicall religion as falſe, & cleue vntounto the onelyonly religion of Chriſte. And yet not withſtanding, would requyre that it might be pardoned hym, yf at any tyme through the occaſion of his office, he dyd come with his prince vntounto the Temple of Mahomet, and there he leaning vponupon his arme ſhould alſo be conſtrayned to knele downe with him? What thing (I ſay) wouldeſt thou doe in this caſe? wouldeſt thou not aunſwere the ſelf ſame thing that the Prophete here aunſwereth vntounto the requeſt of the Syrian?
☞Ireneus.
Pardon me, Temporiſour, in that I ſpeake my conſcience. Truely thou ſhouldeſt doe very foliſhlye and vngentillye yf thou dyddeſt not aunſwere euen as the Prophete dyd.
¶Temporiſour.
Verely I would aunſwere euen ſo.
☞Euſebius.
But now conſydre on the otherſyd, yf ther be any reaſon of excuſe for a Chriſtian: that after he hath longe tyme cōmunicated wt the myſteries of Chriſt, & beyng perfectely inſtructed in the knowledge of the Kingdō of God, & of the grace of ye Goſpel, would require the ſame to be graūted vntounto him, that the Prophet hath permitted vntounto this ſtraūge Syrian, and that thou lykewyſe wouldeſt permit vntounto the Turkiſhe Lord, after thou hadſt wayed the circumſtaūce of the cauſe and perſon? Thinkeſt thou that your ſinne is to be compared vntounto the infirmitie and frayltie of Naaman the Syrian? Doeſt thou not remēbre this ſentence: to whō much is geuen, much of him ſhalbe requyred? What man is ſo farre depriued of vnderſtanding, that wyll requyre aſmuch of a chylde, as of a mā? or of a young plant, as of an old tree? Euen ſo truely, hath piete and godlynes their increaſinges & growinges: for we doe a greate deale more eaſelye ſupporte the infyrmitie of thoſe that are beginners, then the remiſſe negligence of thoſe that are, or ought to be further inſtructed. What ſayeſt thou here vntounto, Temporiſour?
¶Temporiſour.
I agree vntounto all that thou ſayeſt: I am vanquīſhed and ouercome by the manyfeſt trueth.
¶Euſebius.
Doeſt thou acknowledge thē, that theſe Nicodemiſtes hauehave nothing now in the examples of Nicodemus, Ioſeph, & Naamā the Syriā to couer theyr ypocriſie withall, but contraryewyſe, that the infyrme & new fayth of theſe i .ij is a greate deale greater & more better, then is theyrs?
¶Temporiſour.
I do acknowledge it, & cannot withſtād it.
Euſebius.
Tell me then, yf that thoſe whiche hauehave not as yet outwardely renounced the papiſme (all though that in theyr harte they do fauour & allow the goſpel, yet for al that they hauehave not as yet publikeli cōfeſſed theſame) yf thoſe (I ſay) do not fynd in theſe examples any thing to excuſe theyr diſſimulacion, as before I hauehave proued? how then canſt thou and thy ſemblables, who hauehave of long tyme publykely cōfeſſed the Goſpell, and renounced the papiſme, couer or defend by theſe examples youre great ypocriſye in declyning from the trueth?
¶Temporiſour.
I cōfeſſe vnfaynedly, that there is nothing in theſe exāples that maketh for oure purpoſe, in aſmuch as our cauſe is waightier thē theirs: ſo much the leſſe then, do theſe examples ſerue vsus, then them. But tell me, what ſhall I doe?
☞Euſebius.
What is it yt thou aſteſt of me? did I not ſhow thee before?The laſ…e counſayl. My counſayl is that thou doe as thou ſeeſt me do. I admoniſhe the in ye name of Ieſus chriſt, yt thou ſearche nomore excuſes for thy ſinnes: but cōfeſſe thy fante, and forſaking the ſociete of all vnlawefull and ſuperſticious ſeruyces, ioyne thy ſelfe wyth thoſe that walke dy…ectely in the trew religion of Chriſt. Praye alſo the Lorde to pardon thy tranſgreſſion, in that thou haſte abuſed by thyne example thy weake brethren, offended the ſtronger, and confyrmed the ydolater in his ydolatrye. Thou haſt hereof many notable examples, for to appeace and aſſure thy conſcience agaynſte all the barkinges of the wicked and vngodlye: which ſhall ſerue thee for thy better confyrmacion, then thoſe abuſed examples that thou haſt hytherto alledged. Folowe rather the example of the Prophetes and Apoſtles, and dyuers other godli men, that hauehave alwaies by outward fact declared the inward fayth of theyr harte: and dyd not as yet make any ſeparatiō betwen the interiour and exteriour communicacion in religion. Why rather doeſt not thou allow and folowe the example of Tobias in the which is no reprehenſiō,Tobias. thē thoſe which hyther … thou haſt alledged to couer thy ſynnes withall? Tobias, although he was the yōgeſt of his … be and lynage, and although the Iewes of the .xij Tribes went to the golde Calues of …, he fled from al theyr companies, and went vntounto Ieruſalem, vntounto the Temple of the Lorde, wheras he dyd worſhip (according to the law) the Lorde God of Iſraell. Thoſe whoſe companye he auoyded, were alſo Iſraely…es aſwel as he, and dyd boaſt of the trew God▪ & of his trew ſeruice, aſwel as he, in cōdēning al thoſe▪ that for to ſerue the Lord, woulde go to Ieruſalem, (in aſmuch as the Lorde was no accepter of perſones nor places.) I praye thee Temporiſour, tell me, why dyddeſt thou not aſwell choſe this example, wherin there is no vice nor thing worthye of reprehenſion (but cōmended by the ſcriptures) aſwel as the other?
¶Temporiſour.
What is it that thou enquyreſt, Euſebie? the aunſwere is readye. Nicodemus, Ioſeph, and Naamā dyd pleaſe vsus better, becauſe that theyr exāples ſemed better to agree wt the eaſe of oure fleſhe, & to cōtinue …s in a more worldly ſecuritie, then the example of Tobias.
¶Euſebius.
For aſmuch now, as thou vnderſtādeſt that poynt ſufficiētly. Tell me what doeſt thou frō hence forth purpoſe to do?
¶Temporiſour.
I purpoſe by Goddes grace to withdrawe my ſelfe from all Ipocriſye and ſuperſticion, vntounto the confeſſion of the trueth, & for aſmuch as this determinaciō is mixte with many daū gers: I moſt inſtantly deſyre the Lord to pardon and forgeue me myne offences paſte: as alſo that he wyll vouchſafe from hence forth to fortyfye my fayth agaynſt all the aſſaultes of the deuyll.
☞Euſebius.
The Lorde confyrme thee in this thy purpoſe: That agayne at the fyrſte brunt thou doe not recule backe and geue place vntounto the enemy, as one vtterly diſmayed and aſtonied. Remembre alwayes the thinge that I dyd admoniſhe thee of in our fyrſt collaciō, to wyte, that thou do in tyme withdraw thy ſelfe from this diſſimulacion: otherwyſe thou art in daunger to loſe the pricke of thy conſcience, that doeth as yet continually admoniſhe thee, & ſo to fall into an obſtinate blyndneſſe,We muſt in time wt draw our ſelfes frō al papiſtical ſuperſticiōs, ether by lyfe or by exile and flighte, yf we wyl anoyde deſperacion the end of diſſimulacion. and hardneſſe of harte, & finallye into deſperacion. For I praye thee Temporiſour (conſydre dyligentlye with thy ſelf) what other thing can they attend and loke for, that beyng ſo vtterly abaſhed & afraid at the threateninges of a miſerable & corruptible man, do agaynſt theyr owne cōſciences cō municate at vnlawfull ſeruyces: but that alſo whē the deuyl ſhal aſſault them more greuouſly and cruelly, they muſt nedes be ouerthrowē blynded, and brought into extreme deſperacion? Thou knoweſt yt fall of the*Hofmaiſter the munke in germany. Frauncis Spera in Italy. Mayſter Hayles in Inglād are the terrible exā ples of Goddes iuſtice vntounto althoſe that do any thinge agaynſt ye teſtimoni of theyr cōſciēces. Mōcke Hofmayſter, in this land of Germanie: & of Fraū cis Spera in Italie, who are the greate admonicions of God, to thoſe nacions, to be vygilant in the worke of the Lord, cōſtant in fayth, pacient in afflictiō, and by no meanes agaynſt theyr conſciences to denye the truth. Happy is he, that can be warned by other mennes daungers.
¶Temporiſour.
I geue thee hartie thankes of this thy great diligence vſed towardes me. In that thou haſt vouchſaued to preſerue & wt draw frō ye mouth of ye wolf, a poore ſtrayed ſhepe.
¶Ireneus.
For aſmuch as thy cōſcience is ſuch Tēporiſour, I cānot geue the beter cōſayl, thē vtterly to deuide & wt draw thy ſelf frō our aſſembles, tyl ſuch tyme as thou wayſt vnderſtand more playnly, yt therein is nothinge contayned that may hindre thy ſaluaciō: & euē as I do coūſayl thee, ſo would I do my ſelf, yf I were ſo perſwaded as thou art.
☞Euſebius.
Thou doeſt Irenie, as a mā of a modeſte & mylde nature. I would to the lord yt thou didſt thorowly vnderſtād this cōtrouerſie in religiō I wil not refuſe at any tyme whē it ſhal pleaſe the, to cōfarre wt the in this behalf, to thy further edificacion.
☞Ireneus.
I thāke the Euſebie, as yet I do not greatly fantaſye ye matter: but yf hereafter at any time my hart be inclined thereunto, I wyll not forget thy great modeſtie & fidelite, but ſo muche the rather deſyre thy cōpany.
¶Tēporiſour.
My frende Euſebie, for aſmuche as by the prouidēce of God, I am by thy meanes induced to relinquiſhe & forſake al pap…ſtry, I pray thee do not leaue oftē to come & viſite me at my houſe, cōtinually to aſſiſt myne infirmite with ſome comfortable Scripture of the grace of Chriſt.
☞Euſebius.
I wyll doe it gladly. The Lorde confyrme thee.
☞Ireneus.
His peace, make an ende of all this controuerſye, that ſo much troubleth the church.
☞Euſebius.
Amē, euen ſo be it. Amē. The peace of chriſt is not of this worlde, ſhe is not voyde of the verytie of GOD, ſhe defendeth no errours, ſuperſticions, falſe ſeruyces nor any other execrable ſynnes, nor yet the Tyrannye of falſe Chriſtians, but contrarywyſe ſhe doeth pacifye the conſciences of the faythfull towardes GOD, and then amongeſt them ſelues. The ſame peace my frende, Irenie, make the… a trew and perfect Irenie, that is to ſay, peaceable and a louer of peace.
☞Ireneus.
I deſyre it withall my harte.
¶Temporiſour.
I thanke ye both, that it hath pleaſed you to aſſemble here, at myne inſtance. I offer you my ſeruyce, and commende my ſelfe vntounto your prayers.
¶Euſebius.
Let vsus praye God, one for another, I wyll go home to my houſe, you maye folow when it ſhall pleaſe you.
☞The ende of the fowrth and laſt Dialoge.
☞Pſalm. xxvi.
I hauehave not dwelt with vayne perſons: neyther wil I hauehave felowſhip with the diſceytful.
I hauehave hated the congregacion of the wicked: and wyll not ſyt among the vngodly.