Antidote Against Popery, Dialogue
AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST POPERY.
In way of a Dialogue: Wherein, The Speakers are Saul or Paul, Sergius Paulus, and Elymas.
Saul.
NOble Sir, becauſe you are an elect veſſell, the Lord hath ſent mee to publiſh the true Religion vntounto you, by the imbracing, and right profeſſing whereof you may be ſaued.
Sergius Paulus.
What is that religion?
Saul.
It is the Chriſtian Religion; taught, and maintained in the reformed, or Proteſtant Churches.
Serg. Paul.
Wherein ſtandeth this religion?
Saul.
The maine points of it concerne either faith, or practice in exerciſing the parts of Gods worſhip.
Serg. Paul.
Concerning faith, what doth the Proteſtant Church hold?
Saul.
I will not rehearſe all contained in the Symboll or Creed of the Apoſtles, about which it is agreed by all that beare the name of Chriſtians; but onelyonly thoſe particulars, about which there is difference.
Serg. Paul.
I am alſo reſolued by that which I hauehave heard from thee heretofore, of all that is generally held by all Chriſtians, that there is one God, which made, and gouerneth the whole world, who is a ſpirit, incomprehenſible, and comprehending all things: and one Lord Ieſus Chriſt, perfect God, and perfect Man, who dyed for our ſinnes, &c. Tell me therefore onelyonly, what particular points of faith are held by the Proteſtants, but contradicted by others?
Saul.
The firſt is, that God onelyonly is to be beleeued in, and not any man of what title or ſucceſſion ſo euer, nor yet any company of men called the Church:Rom. 3.4. becauſe God only is true and all men are lyers: neither doth the Apoſtles Creed propound any other to beleeued in but God onelyonly.
Serg. Paul.
What, doe you ſay that the Church is not to be beleeued in? Is it not expreſſely ſaid, I beleeue in the holy Catholike Church?
Saul.
It is indeed ſaid I beleeue the holy Catholike Church, but not in it; becauſe the Catholike Church, that is, the Church of God being in all ages, and ouer-ſpreading all parts of the world, is an obiect of faith, and not of ſenſe; foraſmuch as by ſenſe and experience wee cannot know this, but by faith onelyonly, as wee apprehend the Communion of Saints, forgiueneſſe of ſinnes, and the life euerlaſting. Of all which the ſame is ſaid that of the Catholike Church, ſeeing there is but one Verbe, I beleeue, after which they all follow. So that if hence it might bee gathered, that the Church is to bee beleeued in, it may likewiſe be gathered, that the remiſſion of ſinnes, and the refurrection of the body, &c. are to bee beleeued in, which vvere abſurd.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ſecond particular point?
Saul.
The ſecond is, that Chriſt Ieſus is our onelyonly Mediator and Aduocate with the Father in Heauen; neither is it lawfull to come to the Father by any other but by him, and in his name alone: and that the Saints departed out of this life know not of our ſeeking their mediation, if wee ſhould craue it.
Serg. Paul.
Is the Lord ſo ſtrict, that by him wee are thus reſtrained from all Mediators in Heauen, and yet directeth vsus to craue the helpe of others vponupon earth to pray for vsus?
Saul.
It is the voice of Gods own Spirit. There is one God, 1. Tim. 2.5.and one Mediator betwixt God and Man, of whom onelyonly, and of none elſe mention is made ſundry times; as Ioh. 14. Ioh. 16 Rom. 8. 1 Ioh. 2. As for that direction to craue the prayers of men vponupon earth, it is that by hauing mutuall help one from another, our mutuall louelove might increaſe, which cannot be in crauing their mediation in Heauen, ſeeing howſoeuer our louelove may increaſe towards them, yet theirs is already fully perfect. But to inſiſt vponupon nothing elſe, they cannot heare vsus, as the liuing doe; and if they heare, it is kept ſecret from vsus: neither hath the Lord ſpoken one word to direct vsus to them, without which, who ſo ſeeketh to them, may iuſtly hauehave the complaint taken vp againſt him,Ier, 14.14. Hee runneth before he is ſent.
Serg. Paul.
What is the third particular point?
Saul.
The third is, that we are iuſtified and ſaued only by faith in Ieſus Chriſt, and that our workes euen when we are at the beſt, merit nothing towards our eternall glorification. For to this effect ſpeaketh the Lord.Luke 17.10. When yee hauehave done all that ye can, ſay that yee are vnprofitable ſeruants. And Saint Paul. A man is iuſtified by faith, Rom. 3.28.without the workes of the Law.
Serg. Paul.
Is not the worke of him that hath faith then of more vertue, then his that hath none? Is he not Chriſts member, and ſo Chriſts vertue his vertue, that as in Chriſts actions, ſo in his there ſhould be merit.
Saul.
The workes of the beſt are of no more vertue to merit, becauſe hee is ſtill a ſeruant, and bound in duty to what hee doth, whereas merit implyeth doing more then duty requireth. And as for Chriſts vertue communicated vntounto him, it is ſufficient, that he is made thus worthy, though not his works, ſeeing perfect bleſſedneſſe is already fully merited by Chriſt for him, neither is there need of any more merit.
Serg. Paul.
Can hee be ſaid to be iuſtified then that hath no workes, but reſteth vponupon a bare faith?
Saul.
No by no meanes: for faith which iuſtifieth, worketh by louelove, is liuely by workes, as the bodie by the ſoule. Wherefore Saint Iames writing againſt ſuch a faith as is without workes,Iam. ….24. ſaith; A man is not iuſtified by faith onelyonly, but by the workes of the Law: That is, hee is not become iuſt and righteous in the ſight of God, that hath a ſingle and bare faith, but proueth his faith ſound by his workes. For, that he diſputeth not of faith, which is the ſauing grace wrought in the hearts of the Elect; but of a common faith of which euen Deuils are capable, is plaine from the Text. For onelyonly that common faith is the faith, of which he ſaith, A man is not iuſtified by faith onelyonly.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fourth particular point?
Saul.
The fourth is, that faith aſſureth a man without wauering or doubting of the remiſſion of his ſinnes, and of eternall ſaluation.Rom. 4.20. For ſuch was Abrahams faith. Hee doubted not through vnbeliefe, but ſtrengthened himſelf in faith. And that faith which is ioyned with wauering in any man is like the waues of the Sea.Iam. 1.6.
Serg. Paul.
This is much that man ſhould come to know ſo farre what the will of God is, touching his future eſtate. It may be that ſome ſingular man as Abraham or the holy Apoſtles, might ſurely know by reuelation, becauſe they had more then ordinary acquaintance with God: but for other beleeuers I cannot ſee, how they ſhould know, though they may all hope well.
Saul.
There is great reaſon, why any faithfull perſon ſhould know this, becauſe hee hath receiued the Spirit of God,1 Cor. 2.12. which knoweth Gods will, euen as the ſpirit within a man knoweth his minde.
Serg. Paul.
But ſeeing eueryevery man is apt to conceiue the beſt of himſelfe, and naturall preſumption ofttimes aſſureth a man of his ſaluation; how ſhall he know that it is the ſpirit, whereby hee commeth to be thus aſſured, and not his owne partiall fantaſie?
Saul.
It is a great indignitie to the Lord, when as he hath taught vsus,Rom 8.16. that his Spirit witneſſeth with our ſpirits that we are the children of God; to queſtion whether this teſtimonie can be knowne: for wherefore ſerueth the teſtimonie of any, if it be vnknowne. Many indeed doe through their own fault deceiue themſelues, becauſe being void of the ſpirit of ſanctification they preſume: But hee that is renued in his mind vntounto holineſſe, can neuer be deceiued.
Serg. Paul.
Will the Spirit alwayes abide where once he hath ſanctified? or may not a relapſe to carnality and ſinne, cauſe him to depart, that ſo the eſtate of that man, who hath beene once ſanctified, through his owne default, may become as damnable or more damnable then before? which if it may happen to be ſo, what certainty can any man hauehave?
Saul.
He that is borne of God ſinneth not, neither can be, 1 Iohn 3.9.becauſe he is borne of God. If I hauehave ſeemed to ſpeake otherwiſe of thoſe that hauehave beene enlightned and made partakers of the Holy Ghoſt, Heb. 6.6.I ſayd it to ſtirre vp to worke out ſaluation with feare and trembling, and not as poſitiuely ſetting down that ſuch might fall away. Wherefore I added, I am perſwaded better things of you, and ſuch as accompany ſaluation, Heb. 6.9.for God is not vnfaithfull to forget your labour and worke in the Lord. And, he that hath begun this good worke, Phil. 1.6.will perfect is in you.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fift particular point?
Saul.
The fift is, That the ſoules of the faithfull being iuſtified by Chriſt, doe immediately after their departure out of their bodies, take poſſeſſion of that inheritance which he hath by his blood purchaſed for them; and that there is not any puniſhment by a Purgatory fire to bee further endured before their comming into heauen.Luke 12. For Lazarus was caried immediately into Abrahams boſome; and the dead that dye in the Lord are ſaid to be bleſſed, Becauſe they reſt from their labours: which were not true,Reu. 14.13. if they had more miſery yet to paſſe through, rather greater then any already paſt.
Serg. Paul.
But then thy ſelfe haſt taught, 1 Cor. 3.11.that eueryevery one muſt be tryed in the fire, after which, he whoſe worke abideth ſhall be rewarded.
Saul.
Thou art vtterly miſtaken: for I neuer taught that eueryevery man muſt be tryed by the fire, but eueryevery mans worke; concerning which it may be doubted here, euen as of mettall before it commeth to the fire: but at the laſt day, which ſhall be a time of fire and burning flames, it will plainly appeare, what ſolid or chaffie doctrine any man hath built vponupon the true foundation Chriſt, becauſe the righteous Iudge of the whole world comming in perſon, will lay eueryevery thing open as it is. They are very inconſiderate therefore that take this as ſpoken of perſons, it being altogether beſides my purpoſe there to ſpeake of any but builders, or of any paine by them to be ſuffered after death for the more clarifying of them from ſinne: but onelyonly of the difference of their acceptance before God at the laſt, as they hauehave beene ſolid or ſleighty in their building; that golden Doctors of the Church might be incouraged, and the chaffie terrified, as being like, if they would not build better, to come into great perill at the laſt.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fixt particular point?
Saul.
The ſixt is, that when any are departed out of this life, we that ſuruiue can doe nothing auailable to their ſaluation, by offering vp any prayers, almes, or ſacrifice. Becauſe as the rich man being dead,Luke 16.26. it was ſaid, they that would come from thence could not: ſo we beleeue, that there is no remouing of ſoules from woe to bliſſe, but as the tree falleth, ſo it lyeth.2 Sam 12. And therefore, as Dauid prayed for his child being aliue, but when it was dead, ceaſed ſo to doe: in like manner we pray for the ſicke, as being yet capable of mercy, but if they be dead, we ceaſe from praying any more, being aſſured, that to pray now is no more deuotion, but ſuperſtition, ſauoring more of violent affection, then of right reaſon.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ſeuenth particular point?
Saul.
The ſeuenth is, that the Sacrament of the Lords Supper ought to bee adminiſtred to all the people in both kinds, and that it is a Sacrament conſiſting of two parts, the thing ſignifying, and the thing ſignified; and not a ſacrifice of Chriſts very body and blood there ſubſtantially preſent, as when he was crucified vponupon the Croſſe, iterated againe by the Prieſt to as great auaile, as when he ſuffered for vsus. For this were not to remember Chriſt abſent in the fleſh, but to bring him backe againe to the death tenne thouſand times ouer, and to make a miracle the obiect of faith, when as the proper end of miracles is to helpe vsus to beleeue things inuiſible, themſelues being alwayes viſible and ſenſible.
Serg. Paul.
Is not the Lord then to be beieeued, who ſaith, This is my body?
Saul.
Yes by all meanes, but as in other ſpeeches wee muſt not looke ſo much to the letter as to the ſenſe (as when he ſaith, I am the Ʋine, I am the Doore, I am the Way; Iohn …5.1.in all which hee is figuratiue) ſo here taking the ſpeech as it is meant, we beleeue it with all our hearts, that the bread is Chriſts body to the faithfull receiuer, and is thus called, becauſe by it Chriſt is exhibited and receiued indeed.
Serg. Paul.
What is the eighth particular point?
Saul.
The eighth point is, that in Baptiſme there is true and certaine remiſſion of ſinnes to all repentant and faithfull perſons, but not an abolition of naturall corruption: for that remaineth ſtill in the baptized, to intice, Iam. 1 14. Gal. 5.17. Rom. 7.23.and to draw to actuall ſinning, in ſo much that the regenerate cannot doe what they would, nor yet I my ſelfe, for I find in mee the law of my members rebelling againſt the law of my mind, and leading mee captiue to the law of ſinne.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ninth particular point?
Saul.
The ninth is, that theſe two Sacraments are all the Sacraments of the New Teſtament, becauſe the Lord Ieſus ordained theſe, and none of the other fiue, which by ſome are added to make vp the number ſeuen. For a ſacrament is Gods ſeale, and ſo properly to be appointed by him, who alone hath the power ouer that which is ſealed vp hereby.
Serg. Paul.
What is the tenth particular point?
Saul.
The tenth point is, that the beſt are not ſo perfectly righteous in this life, neither can any attaine to ſuch perfection in keeping Gods Lawes, but that they are ſtill much faulty: for in many things wee ſinne all: and,Iam. 3.2. 1 Iohn 1.8. If wee ſay that we hauehave no ſinne, we deceiue our ſelues, and there is no truth in vsus.
Serg. Paul.
What? doth Chriſt then command vsus things impoſſible? for he biddeth vsus be perfect,Mat. 5.48. Phil. 3.15. as our Father which is in heauen is perfect; and thou thy ſelfe haſt ſaid, ſo many of vsus as be perfect, let vsus be thus minded.
Saul.
There is a twofold perfection, of parts, and of degrees: perfection of parts, is when a man hath not onelyonly one grace, or a few graces, but all graces: perfection of degrees is when a man hath attained ſuch a meaſure of grace, as that there is in him no imperfection or want at all. Of the former the Lord ſpeaketh, that wee ſhould louelove not onelyonly friends, but alſo enemies, and exerciſe benignitie to all, and not of the other. Againe, there is a perfection of ſinceritie, and a perfection of ſanctitie, of the former of which onelyonly I ſpake, and not of the latter; for I had immediately before acknwoledged my ſelfe not perfect in that ſenſe.
Serg. Paul.
What is the eleuenth particular point?
Saul.
The eleuenth point is, that mans will is ſo corrupted euer ſince the fall of Adam, as that hee cannot deſire to be conuerted, or thinke a thought tending to conuerſion: but of his owne will, he is caried onelyonly to euill, till that God of his grace changeth his will by putting a new heart and ſpirit into him.Gen. 6.5. 2 Cor. 3.5. Phil. 2.13. For, all the imaginations of mans heart are onelyonly euill continually: and, we are not able to thinke a good thought as of our ſelues, but it is God that worketh in vsus the will and the deed of his owne good pleaſure.
Serg. Paul.
Why then are we bidden to turne from ſinne, to repent, and beleeue the Goſpell? and why is it vſed as an argument of iuſt iudging, How oft would I hauehave gathered you together and ye would not? if they could doe no otherwiſe?
Saul.
Wee are bidden to turne, to ſhew that the Lord will not turne vsus without our being willing, and by thus calling vponupon vsus, he worketh a willingneſſe, in ſuch as bee elected: and if any notwithſtanding are ſtill hardened, and finally damned, the cauſe is not in God, who is tyed to no man, but in the corruption of their owne will, brought in by mans owne default, when at the firſt it was not ſo.
Serg. Paul.
What is the twelfth particular point?
Saul.
The twelfth point is, that mariage is free for all men, and that none ought to be debarred from it: but if any can containe, they are to bee exhorted to vſe this gift, that they may be more free to ſerue God, not being intangled with ſo much worldly buſineſſe, as they which hauehave wife and children. For mariage is honorable amongst all men: Heb. 13.4. 1 Tim 4 3.and it is a doctrine of Deuils forbidding to marry; yea the Apoſtles themſelues were maried men, and I might hauehave vſed the ſame libertie alſo, neither doth the Lord approue it to bee good for any ſort of men, not to marry, Math. 19.12.but for ſuch onelyonly as can containe.
Serg. Paul.
If mariage bringeth worldly incombrances, and the Miniſters of the Goſpell had need to enioy all freedome, that they may the better attend vponupon their office, it ſeemeth, that the vnmaried are rather to bee preferred, if a ſufficient number of ſuch may be had: and if any bee therefore willing to liue alwaies ſingle, that they may be the more fit for this ſeruice, it is no forbidding of mariaege to receiue onelyonly ſuch to holy Orders. Againe, though mariage be lawfull, and a mans companying with his wife be no ſinne, yet it diſableth him for a time to communicate in ſuch things, as wherein holy perſons onelyonly hauehave libertie, as to eate of the Shew-bread. Abiathar telleth Dauid,1 Sam. 21.4. that if they had not lately companied with women they might cate of it, and the Prieſts vnderunder the Law, when their courſe came to ſerue in the Temple, liued apart from their wiues, as appeareth by the example of Zachary.Luk. 1.23.
Saul.
If any ſufficient and fit for life and learning, hauing the gift of continencie liue ſingle, it is not to bee doubted, but that they are to be preferred: but becauſe this gift is very rare, and for preferment men will take vponupon them that, which they hauehave no abilitie vntounto, to admit onelyonly ſuch into holy Orders, is in effect to forbid mariage to ſome, and damnable, as of the Deuill, as hath been already ſhewed. Yea it is a maruell, that they which pretend the Apoſtolicall title ſo much, ſhould bee ſo plainely againſt the Apoſtle, who ſaith; Let a Biſhop be the Husband of one Wife. 1 Tim. 3.Neither are they that inforce themſelues to a ſingle life, but want the gift, the more free, but rather much more troubled, ſeeing luſt is an hundreth times more incombring, then any domeſticall troubles of the maried. And laſtly, if it bee a good reaſon againſt the mariage of Prieſts, that companying with women makes them vnfit to partake of the Holy Bread for a time, it is good alſo againſt the mariage of any Chriſtian man, who is now alſo to partake of this bread, as well as the Prieſt. No more therefore can be hence concluded, but that all ſhould abſtaine from companying with their wiues againſt the time of communicating, as againſt the time of faſting & Prayer. For ſo I hauehave elſewhere directed. Defraud not one another, 1. Cor. 7 5.except it be by conſent for a time, that ye may giuegive your ſelues to faſting and Prayer, and come together againe.
Serg. Paul.
What is the thirteenth particular point?
Saul.
The thirteenth point is, that the holy Scriptures, that is, the canonicall bookes of the Old and New Teſtament, are alone ſufficient for ſaluation, neither are any other either Apochryphall Writings, or vnwritten Traditions of like authoritie, but onelyonly ſo far forth to be receiued, as they agree with the contents of theſe Bookes. For it is plainely expreſſed, that though Ieſus did and ſpake many things more, then are written, yet theſe things are written, that wee might beleeue, and beleeuing hauehave eternall life. Ioh. 20.31. Gal. 1 8.And if we, or an Angell from Heauen, bring any other Goſpell, let him bee accurſed. We that are the Apoſtles of Chriſt hauehave euer ſubmitted our doctrine to bee examined by the written Word, and therefore,Act. 17.11. if any thing be pretended to hauehave been taught by vsus by word of mouth, or by any that hauehave followed vsus, not conſonant to the written Word, it is without doubt to bee reiected.
Serg. Paul.
It is no where written, that the Lords day is to bee kept holy in ſtead of the old Sabbath, nor that infants are to bee baptized, nor that the Lords Supper is to bee receiued in the morning, or at the Church, or by women as well as by men, and yet theſe things are neceſſarie.
Saul.
Theſe are agreeable to the written Word, and therefore good reaſon, that they ſhould bee obſerued: but this maketh nothing for vnwritten traditions contrary to the Word of God, or for the authoritie of any, that are without ground here.
Serg. Paul.
The Scriptures are obſcure, and therefore alledged euen by the vileſt Heretikes, ſo that if they onelyonly be receiued, it ſeemeth, that there will be nothing to patronize the truth, more then errour. It is not therefore neceſſarie to take them with the ſenſe receiued by the Church, that wee may hold aright, and be ſaued?
Saul.
Many places of Scripture are plaine, and eaſie to be vnderſtood; namely, ſo many, as doe ſet forth the Articles of our faith, Gods holy will and commandements, and the doctrine of Prayer, and worſhipping God, which is all neceſſarie to be knowne vntounto ſaluation; ſo that herein a Chriſtian of ordinarie vnderſtanding, needeth not to depend vponupon the ſenſe of others, but immediately vponupon the Word of God. In places more obſcure, the beſt Doctors of the Church hauehave alwayes differed; and therefore euen herein Chriſtian people are not tyed to the ſenſe of any, but to that, which is moſt agreeable to the truth, plainely ſet forth in ſome other place.
Serg. Paul.
If all hauehave iudgement in the ſenſe of Gods Word, then it ſeemeth that none are to bee debarred from reading the Scriptures, for feare of falling into errour by ſo doing: whereas it is plaine, that ignorant perſons are peruerted ſometimes by the ſcriptures themſelues. 2. Pet. 3.16.For, there are many places hard to be vnderſtood, which the ignorant and vnſtable peruert to their owne damnation.
Saul.
Nothing can be more againſt the minde of Chriſt, then to debarre the people from reading, and hearing the Scriptures read in a knowne tongue. For hee hath bidden, Search the Scriptures, for therein yee looke to finde eternall life. Ioh 5.39.The danger that ſome fall into hereby is otherwiſe to bee prouided againſt: viz. by diligent preaching, and opening the ſenſe.
Serg. Paul.
But is not the Church all in all to Chriſtian people. HaueHave they not the Scriptures from the Church? and do they not by the Church come to know, that they are the Word of God? and therefore howſoeuer the Church ſhall order the reading and ſetting forth of the Scriptures, is it not to be held to be done very well?
Saul.
It is not to bee denied, but that as the Woman of Samaria brought the people there to the knowledge of Chriſt, ſo we are brought by the Church, at the firſt, to know the Scriptures to be the Word of God: but as the ſame people ſaid vntounto her, after that Chriſt had taught them:Ioh 4.42. now we beleeue, not becauſe of thy words, but becauſe we hauehave heard him our ſelues: So Chriſtian people receiuing the Word into their hearts, doe not beleeue any more becauſe of the Church, but becauſe the Word it ſelfe working vponupon their conſciences perſwadeth them, that it is the Word of God. And as it gaue the being at the firſt vntounto the Church, ſo the Church is to bee ordered thereby, as by the ſuperiour, and not to order it, as an inferiour.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fourteenth particular point?
Saul.
The fourteenth point is, that Chriſt onelyonly is the ſupreme head and foundation of his Church, neither hath any one man, nor ought to hauehave ſuperioritie ouer all others in ſpirituall matters, in all Countries and Nations, being as it were a common Rocke, whereupon all may ſtay themſelues, nothing doubting, but that cleaning to him, they cleaue to Chriſt,1 Cor. 3 9. and are free from errour. For, none can lay any other foundation, ſauing that which is laid, Ieſus Chriſt. If vponupon any other the Church be founded, it is not vponupon one, but vponupon all the Apoſtles alike,Epheſ. 2.20 Gal. 2.9. and the Prophets too: if vponupon any as more principall they are three, Iames, Cephas, and Iohn, who ſeemed to be Pillars. If a power ſpiritually to rule by opening, and ſhutting, binding, and looſing, be committed to any ouer all others, neither is that committed to one Peter, but to all the Apoſtles:Ioh. 20 23. For, whoſe ſins ye remit, ſaith the Lord, they are remitted, and whoſe ſinnes yee retaine, they are retained: and if any one hath rule ouer the world, as chiefe, it is not Peter, Gal. 2 7.but Paul: For, to Peter was committed the miniſterie of the circumciſion onelyonly, which was but of one Nation; to Paul the miniſter of the vncircumciſion, which was of all the reſt of the world.
Serg. Paul.
But of Peter the Lord ſaith ſingularly: Math. 16.16.Thou art Peter, and vponupon this Rocke will I build my Church, and to thee I giuegive the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen. And, follow me, and I will make thee a fiſher of men. And againe, Peter loueſt thou me?Ioh. 23. Feed my ſheepe. By all which it ſhould ſeemt, that howſoeuer others had power of binding and looſing too, yet he was preferred, as chiefe, and aboue all the reſt, after whom ſuch another ſhould ſucceed, and ſo another from age to age to the worlds end. And this conſtruction ſeemeth to bee verified by the vninterrupted ſucceſſion of thoſe Biſhops, who challenge to be his ſucceſſors, beyond all other Biſhops of any other place, ſeeing there is no ſuch ſucreſſion elſe where to be found?
Saul.
If Peter had beene appointed ouer all, I had beene much to blame to withſtand him to his face at Antioch, Gal. 2.14.and to goe on in mine office without ſeeking allowance and aduice from him. I doe not therefore acknowledge any chiefly intimated in Peter aboue the other Apoſtles, but that hee ſhould be a moſt notable inſtrument of glorifying God, and propagating the Goſpell, wherein hee ſhould exceed the reſt, being fuller of the power of the Holy Ghoſt, as he was fuller of zeale towards Chriſt. And that laſt committing of the ſheepe and lambs to his feeding ſingularly, was no more then was needfull after his groſſe fall by denying his Lord and Maſter, through which hee might for euer hauehave beene diſcouraged, had not his commiſſion beene againe renued. It pleaſed our good God for his owne glory to deale alike with him, and with me, both grieuous ſinners and blaſphemers, that where ſinne had moſt abounded, zeale and grace might moſt abound; and whereas wee were moſt darkned, through ſcandall that might hence ariſe, making vsus vnfit to be lights of the world, to make vsus ſhine by miracles aboue all others, that thus no ſcandall to hinder the Goſpell might any more appeare. And as for the ſucceſſion ſo much gloried in, it is no true ſucceſſion of Apoſtolicall men, but of politicall Princes, maintained by the ſword, and not by the word, euen as the ſucceſſors of Mahomet hauehave done. Of Apoſtlolike men there hath beene a more true ſucceſſion at Conſtantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch.
Serg. Paul.
But if there be no ſupreame power vponupon earth, how ſhall vnity be maintained in the Church, ſeeing diners men will be of diners minds? and in caſe of difference about matter of faith, who ſhall be Iudge to end it? if no one man, how ſhall it come to an end? or hath the Lord left his Church in ſuch a miſerable caſe, as that ſhe muſt needs broile in contentions without end?
Saul.
There was no ſupreame in the Primitiue Church, and yet they are ſaid to hauehave beens all together with one mind; Act. 2.46.the Spirit which is the Author of vnity, ſhall keepe the true Church in vnity, though there be no viſible head ouer all. And as for differences that ariſe, wee hauehave an exemplary direction to meet in Councell:Acts 15. Where being free liberty for any learned member to ſpeake, it is not to bee doubted, but that the aſſiſtance of the Holy Ghoſt being inuocated, after reaſonable debating of things controuerted, all ſhall bee ſwayed to hearken vntounto and determine with one eminent man, as they did with Iames. Verſ 22.If not, but as in the time of Arrianiſme more are for error then for the truth, it muſt be borne as a croſſe, till the Lord will be entreated to giuegive the truth the victory againe, as he did then after certaine yeres. And thus I hauehave related all the chiefe points of the faith maintained by the Proteſtant Church, ſo plaily founded vponupon the word of God, as that if in any of them there be error, we may cry out with the Prophet,Ier. 20.7. and ſay, If we be deceiued (O God) thou haſt deceiued vsus. There be many points more, but becauſe they will better come vnderunder thoſe that concerne practice, I will refer them thither.
Serg. Paul.
What are the points concerning practice?
Saul.
Firſt, as we hold that God onelyonly is to be beleeued in, ſo we make all our prayers to him onelyonly, vtterly refuſing to pray to Angels or Saints departed, how gracious ſoeuer they may ſeeme to be with the Lord: And herein wee hauehave warrant from the word of God, who ſaith,Pſal. 50.14. Call vponupon mee in the time of trouble, and I will heare and deliuer thee. Thus all the faith full, whoſe practice is recorded in holy Scriptures, hauehave alwayes done, neither hath any euer called vponupon any other.
Serg. Paul.
Did not Iaacob pray to the Angell that was with him in all his peregrination, Gen. 48.16.that he would bleſſe the two ſons of Ioſeph, Ephraim and Manaſſeh, when he ſaid, God before whom my fathers did walke, the God, which fed me all my life long vntounto this day, the Angell, which redeemed mee from all euill, bleſſe the …ads, &c.
Saul.
The Angell named here, is none other but the Lord Ieſus: for where doe we reade of any other Redeemer? If he had meant an Angell, as the word is commonly vnderſtood, he would hauehave ſaid Angels, and not an Angell, for at all times of danger mention is made of the Angels appearing to him, as both in his iourney towards Padan Aram,Gen. 28.10. Gen. 32.1. and in his returne from thence. OnelyOnly hee, to whom his deliuerance from Eſau is to be imputed, wreſtled with him alone, of whom the Text ſpeaketh ſo plainly, as that it is moſt certaine he was the Lord. If Iaacob ſhould hauehave prayed to an Angell, how farre an Angell would hauehave beene from accepting of it, appeareth in the example of Iohn and Daniel, who were both forbidden to worſhip an Angell.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ſecond point in practice?
Saul.
Secondly, becauſe God is a Spirit, which cannot be expreſſed by any ſimilitude, wee abhorre the vſe of any image or ſimilitude in diuine worſhip: yea we refraine altogether from ſetting forth the diuine Maieſty by any image. For, both Moſes chargeth the people,Deur. 4.15. that they make no image, becauſe they ſaw none in the day that the Lord ſpake to them; Eſay 40.and the Prophet Eſay ſpeaketh of it as a thing impoſſible to repreſent God, who is infinite, by a finite reſemblance; and Hahakkuk plainly calleth images teachers of lyes.Hab. 2.18.
Serg. Paul.
But God hath ſometime aſſumed a ſhape vntounto himſelfe, as to Daniel he appeared like an old man, at Chriſts baptiſme the Holy Ghoſt appeared in the likeneſſe of a Doue. Why may he not then be thus pictured and ſet forth?
Saul.
The precepts of God, and not his actions, ought to be a direction to vsus; ſo that if he hath forbidden to make an image of God, it will bee no good plea to alledge how hee hath ſometime appeared, if we preſume thus to picture him. Beſides, all images made by man are dead things, whereas the reſemblances which God hath at any time appeared by hauehave had life and motion. And ſuch a picture of God is any huing man, rather then a dead and dumb image. And laſtly, theſe reſemblances were not exhibited to bee worſhipped, but onelyonly to expreſſe in viſion, what the Lord would hauehave his people to vnderſtand.
Serg. Paul.
An image putteth a man in mind of God, who is apt otherwiſe to be caried away with by-thoughts.
Saul.
Shall man take vponupon him to bee wiſer then God; when hee hath commanded to make no image, but to worſhip him in ſpirit, what it is in effect but to inſtruct him? What wilt thou, that no image be made, but onelyonly that the minde be fixed vponupon thee in Prayer: thou doeſt not ſo aduiſedly herein, becauſe mens minds are ready to bee drawne away if they hauehave nothing to behold. It were much better therefore for them to hauehave ſome image to keepe the minde from wandring, and to ſtirre vp deuotion. Oh intolerable arrogancie, that man ſhould dare thus to correct the precepts of his Maker.
Serg. Paul.
Doth the command of God touch Images, or rather Heathen Idols, which are repreſentations of falſe gods, which hee forbiddeth to hauehave in the firſt command: and then to make images of them in the ſecond?
Saul.
Indeed, ſome are much deluded hereby, thinking that their image-making is throughly iuſtified thus. But ſilly men that they are, they doe little attend the vehement inuectiues of the Prophets, againſt ſuch as attempted by image, to repreſent the True God, both becauſe it is impoſſible, and becauſe it is the way to let in much corruption in the worſhip of God.
Serg. Paul.
It ſeemeth, that the Lord was delighted in images about his Tabernacle, and Temple; for hee appointed Cherubins to be made in moſt glorious maner, which had faces like yong men: ſo that the garniſhing of Churches with images now is not a thing ſo vnwarrantable, and without preſident, as you would make it to be.
Saul.
Thoſe images were onelyonly for ornament, and haply for ſome ſignification, but for adoration there is not the leaſt ſyllable, that tendeth to ſhew that they were: neither did they ſerue to reſemble God, but in ſome ſort in what ſtate and maieſtie the Lord ſitteth in Heauen, attended by ſuch glorious creatures. It cannot be gathered hence, that Churches may now bee garniſhed in like manner, becauſe then they were much taught by outward things, as children in their nonage, but now being of full age, we are no more vnderunder beggarly and impotent rudiments.Gal. 4.9.
Serg. Paul.
What is the third point in practice?
Saul.
Thirdly, becauſe the Lord Ieſus hath bidden vsus aske any thing in his Name; wee pray alwayes in the name of Ieſus Chriſt onelyonly to the Father, flying as ſacrilege, prayers vntounto Saints departed. For it is the proper honour of Chriſt to ſeek vntounto God by his mediation.1 Ioh. 2.2. If any man ſinne, wee hauehave an aduocate with the Father, Ieſus Chriſt the righteous. Wherefore to vſe the mediation of others, it is to rob Chriſt of his honour. Euen as if the Prince ſhould bid vsus all, that hauehave ſuits to the King, to come to him, and he will prefer them for vsus: if notwithſtanding we leauing the Prince, ſhould flocke about ſome Courtiers to intercede for vsus.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fourth point in practice?
Saul.
Fourthly, wee make all our prayers in a knowne tongue: for, I will pray with the ſpirit, 1 Cor. 14.15.and I will pray with my vnderſtanding alſo. It is a confuſion, and no edification to vſe publike ſeruice in a ſtrange tongue, euen as when a trumpet maketh an imperfect ſound.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fifth point in practice?
Saul.
Fiftly, becauſe the Lord hath forbidden vaine repetitions,Math. 6. as heatheniſh: we doe not place deuotion in ſaying ouer a multitude of prayers, but in feruent and hearty praying; one, or a few prayers at a time, ſo as that our affections may be quickened, and not dulled hereby.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ſixth point in practice?
Saul.
Sixtly, wee content our ſelues to confeſſe our ſinnes only to God, and hold it not neceſſary to confeſſe all things vntounto the Prieſt, but onelyonly for neceſſary reliefe of conſcience, being troubled in regard of ſome particulars. And generally wee deny not, but acknowledge to one another, that wee are ſinners, and this is all that God hath commanded.Iam. 5.16. Confeſſe your ſinnes one vntounto another, and pray one for another.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ſeuenth point in practice?
Saul.
Seuenthly, when we hauehave humbled our ſelues for our ſinnes, wee doe not take vponupon vsus to ſatisfie for them by puniſhing our bodies with whipping, or putting on Hairecloth, but onelyonly by abſtinence and contrition of heart, watching more carefully ouer our wayes, that wee ſinne no more. For Chriſt hath ſatisfied fully for vsus, by bearing in his bodie the ſmart due for our ſins, and no more reuenge is required to be taken by vsus vponupon our ſelues: but that whereby our bodies may be beaten downe,1 Cor. 9. and the better kept from ſinning for the time to come, ſuch as is hearty ſorrow, for ſo the Lord hath commanded;Ioel 2.13. Rent your hearts and not your garments: and faſting is often called for, but doing violence to the body, by ſtriking till the blood commeth out, is rather to imitate Baals prieſts,1 King. 18. that lanched and cut their bodies in their ſuperſtitious deuotion, then to follow any approued patterne of the truely godly.
Serg. Paul.
But the wearing of ſackcloth and aſhes is commended by many approued examples, ſo that if you refuſe this penance, it ſeemeth, that you are iuſtly to blame.
Saul.
Wee muſt not confound, but diſtinguiſh betwixt times. VnderUnder the Law indeed theſe things were required, and the waſhing of the body, and the bringing of a ſacrifice, for expiation of ſinne; becauſe the Lord not content with inward contrition, would hauehave it outwardly expreſſed alſo; ſuch was the auſteritie of the Law: but vnderunder the Goſpel, theſe are remitted: for when the Publicans and people asked Iohn, Luke 3.9.exhorting to workes of repentance, what they ſhould doe, he omitteth all theſe things, and ſpeaketh onelyonly of ceaſing from ſinne, and doing good; neither is girding with ſackcloth, &c. any where elſe mentioned in the New Teſtament, ſuch is the lenitie of the Goſpel. Hereupon it is ſaid, that the burthen of the Law was heauy, and ſuch at neither we nor our fathers were able to heare: Act. 15.10. Math. 11.28.but of the yoake of the Goſpell, the Lord ſaith: My yoake is eaſie, and my burden light.
Serg. Paul.
But are not ſome ſinnes veniall … for which Chriſt did not, neither needed to ſuffer? and ought not wee then by theſe workes of penance to ſatisfie for them?
Saul.
It is an imaginaly diſtinction, no where founded in the Word of God:Iam. 2.10. Math. 5.19. for here all ſinne is condemned as mortall. He that obſerueth all the Law, and yet faileth in one point, it guilty of all. He that breaketh the leaſt of Gods commandements, and teacheth others to doe ſo, ſhal be counted the leaſt in the Kingdome of Heauen. And what leſſer ſin can there be then an idle word,Math. 12.36. Mark. 7.21. and yet hereof account ſhall bee giuen at the day of Iudgement. And what leſſer then euill thoughts, and yet theſe defile a man, and ſo debatre him from heauen, foraſmuch as no vncleane thing ſhall enter therein.
Serg. Paul.
What is the eighth point of practice?Apoc. 22.
Saul.
Eighthly, we hold that we may as acceptably worſhip God in one place, as in another; namely, in our priuate worſhip one alone, neither hauehave wee need to goe on pilgrimage to any remote place, where the bones of any Saint, or Reliques are kept, or Church or Chappell in any reſpect ſuppoſed to be more holy, as though wee ſhould the rather obtaine Gods indulgence, in reſpect of our ſinnes, by thus doing. For when thou wilt pray, ſaith the Lord,Math. 6.6. enter into thy cloſet. And for publique aſſembling to the worſhip of God, any conſecrate place is as good as Ieruſalem, or the Mount, where Iacob was wont to worſhip. For all ſuch dignitie of one place aboue another, is plainly by Chriſt himſelfe abrogated, ſaying: The houre commeth, when neither at Ieruſalem, Ioh. 4.20.nor in this Mountaine men ſhall worſhip the Father.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ninth point of practice?
Saul.
Ninthly, if any bee ſicke, wee pray for them, but anoint them not,Iam. 5. becauſe although direction bee giuen thus to doe, yet conſideration muſt be had of the times, anointing was then accompanied with healing, through a ſingular vertue vponupon the Presbyterie, for the more confirmation of the Goſpel, in the firſt beginnings thereof, but this hath ceaſed long agoe, and therefore if it were now vſed, it would bee a naked ceremonie, without benefit to the diſeaſed.
Serg. Paul.
What is the tenth point of practice?
Saul.
Tenthly, we doe not vſe croſſing or Holy Water, or any the like Ceremonies to bleſſe vsus therewith: becauſe we doe not finde, that they were inſtituted by God, but inuented by men giuen to ſuperſtition, and therefore can hauehave no further vertue, then ſuch are able to giuegive vntounto them.
Serg. Paul.
But by experience it hath beene diuers times confirmed, that there is vertue in theſe things: for the diuell hath beene often hereby chaced away.
Saul.
If any ſuch effect hath followed vponupon the applying of them, it hath beene through colluſion of the Deuill, giuing way for a further aduantage: namely, that ſuperſtitious people might be the more confirmed, in their confidence in ſuch impotent ceremonies, and be drawne away from God, who onelyonly is able to curbe Satan; that thus they might lye the more open vntounto him.
Serg. Paul.
What is the eleuenth point of practice?
Saul.
Eleuenthly, we do not vſe any deceit, by keeping any thing written in the canonicall Scriptures, from the knowledge of the people, or by inuenting ſtories of things neuer done, to ſtirre vp deuotion in them. For whatſoeuer the pretence may be in thus doing, wee are ſure that God hath pronounced them accurſed,Deut. 4. that take ought from his lawes, or adde any thing thereunto.
Serg. Paul.
What is the twelfth point of practice?
Saul.
In the twelfth place, we doe not commend wilfull pouertie, as a point of deuotion, that is, for a man to giuegive away all that he hath to the poore, ſo that himſelfe is conſtrained to begge for reliefe. For we are not to giuegive ſo, as that we may be grieued, and others eaſed, 2 Cor. 8.13. 1 Cor. 16.1.but eueryevery man as God hath bleſſed him, and as he can ſpare.
Serg. Paul.
Chriſt was poore, and ſo were the Apoſtles, and vntounto him that asked, what he was yet to doe, it is preſcribed, if thou wilt be perfect,Math. 19 21. goe ſell all that which thou haſt, and giuegive it to the poore: and according to this direction, they that had poſſeſſions,Act. 4. ſold them, and brought the price, and laid it at the Apoſtles feet. And laſtly, the poore are pronounced bleſſed, and woe is to the rich, and full.
Saul.
Chriſt was borne poore, the Diſciples forſooke all to attend vponupon their Apoſtolicall Office, which neceſſarily required…t, and to this Office was that Yong man called, who was bidden to ſell and giuegive to the poore; ſo that what is ſaid to him bindeth not but in the like caſe: viz. when any man is called, the neceſſitie of the Church requiring it, in an Apoſtolike manner, to trauell through diuers countreys to ſet forth the Goſpell. Touching that example of ſelling and laying downe the price at the Apoſtles feet, it was extraordinary, and only of ſuch as ioyned themſelues with the Apoſtles, for the publike ſeruice of the Church, and therefore ſoone ceaſed, as appeareth, Act. 5.13. Laſtly, the poore ſimply are not pronounced bleſſed, nor the rich woful: for he ſaith onelyonly, Bleſſed are ye poore: namely,Luke 6.20. which hauehave left all to follow, and ſerue me in this Office: and, Wee to you that are rich, that is, preferre your riches ſo, as that like the Yong man, ye refuſe to leaue them, to follow me, though hereunto inuited.
Serg. Paul.
What is the thirteenth point of practice?
Saul.
In the thirteenth place, we doe not vow perpetuall Virginitie, as ſuppoſing it a point of more perfection; nor to liue in Cels, Wilderneſſes, or Monaſteries, there to ſpend our time ſeparate from the world, in the nabit, and according to the rules preſcribed by the inſtituters of ſuch Orders, glorying to be of their Order. For wee ought not to vow any thing, but what we can performe, but this wee cannot, becauſe it is not giuen to all. And for Monaſticall liuing, it is plainely repugnant to this.1 Cor. 7.20. Let eueryevery man continue in that calling, wherein God hath called him. And to be named after any man, I hauehave by the Spirit of God condemned as carnall, in the perſons of thoſe at Corinth, that held ſome of Paul,1 Cor. 3. ſome of Cephas, &c.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fourteenth point of practice?
Saul.
In the fourteenth place, we keep Holy-dayes in remembrance of Chriſt, the bleſſed Virgin Mary, and of the holy Apoſtles, as being ſet forth in the Word of God, for moſt notable and holy inſtruments of our beſt good: but other dayes dedicated to others we obſerue not: partly, leſt the people ſhould be ouermuch burdened with dayes; and partly, becauſe we are vncertaine of the worth of ſuch men, or the truth of ſuch things, as in remembrance whereof theſe obſeruations were taken vp.
Serg. Paul.
What is the fifteenth point of practice?
Saul.
In the fifteenth place, wee keepe faſts of Lent, and Holy-dayes-eues, &c. according to the ancient cuſtome of the Church of God, but wee reckon not this to be any part of Gods ſeruice, but a meanes, the better to enable vsus againſt the fleſh, and to the ſpirituall ſernice. Neither doe wee thinke the conſcience defiled at ſuch times by cating fleſh: for nothing that entreth into a man defileth him, Mark. 7.20.but onelyonly that they which doe thus, are worthily fined, for neglecting wholeſome conſtituted Orders When there is any particular occaſion to faſt, wee abſtaine from all food, from morning till night.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ſixteenth point of practice?
Saul.
In the ſixteenth place, we all both Clergie and Laitie are ſubiect to our King as Supreme; and to his Officers, whom we are bound to obey vnderunder him: and if he doth tyrannize ouer vsus, if hee be an Hereticke, or ſetter vp of Hereſies, we reſiſt not by force, neither by treachery ſeeke to take his life away; but we exhort him, and pray for him, and ſo leaue him to the Lord, who onelyonly is aboue him, and can juſtly chaſtiſe him. For thus Dauid behaued himſelfe towards Saul, and I hauehave plainely ſet it downe as a charge to all;Rom. 13.1. 1 Tim. 2. Let eueryevery ſoule be ſubiect to the higher powers: and let prayers be made for all, eſpecially for Kings, and Gouernours, &c.
Serg. Paul.
What is the ſeuenteenth point of practice?
Saul.
In the ſeuenteenth place, wee proceed in that ſimple manner in our baptizing, that our Sauiour Chriſt hath preſcribed, vſing neither Milke, nor Honey, nor Spittle, nor Salt, nor exorciſing, but onelyonly Water, in the name of the Father, the Sonne, and the Holy Ghoſt, and certaine prayers, and ſitting admonitions before and after. For all other things were brought in ſince, and ſo are humane and ſuperſtitious.
Serg. Paul.
But ye vſe a ſpeciall veſtiment, and the ſigne of the Croſſe in your baptizing?
Saul.
Wee doe ſo indeed, but not as any neceſſary appurtenances of Baptiſme; but the Surplice is put on for order as a diſtinguiſhing garment; and the Croſſe is made after baptiſine ended, without opinion of any vertue in it, onelyonly to figure out what a baſe profeſſion in the opinion of the world we betake our ſelues vntounto, we being yet no whit aſhamed of the ignominie of Chriſts Croſſe, but reioycing to beare eueryevery man the Croſſe, which he ſhall meet withall for his ſake.
Serg. Paul.
What is the eighteenth point of practice?
Saul.
In the eighteenth place, we receiue the Sacrament of the Lords Supper with all …erence vponupon nor knees, but after this ended, we do not keep the Holy bread remaining to be caried about in Proceſſion, as hauing vertue to any other vſe, but onelyonly to ſeed the ſoules of ſuch as are preſent. If any be ſicke, which deſire it, other bread and Wine are taken; and being by the Miniſter conſecrated, as in publike it is giuen to the ſicke, and to ſome others with him. Moreouer, we vſe common Bread and Wine, and not little Cakes of vnleauened bread to be giuen whole, being firſt lifted vp in the ſight of the people, that they may worſhip them. For this vſe onelyonly of this bleſſed Sacrament hauehave we from our Lord Chriſt, and to bring in any other vſe, is to preſume to bee wiſer then he, and ſo to become ſtarke fooles. And thus I hauehave faithfully related the practice of the Reformed or Proteſtant Church.
Serg. Paul.
But why is this called the Reformed Church? hath Chriſt any more Churches but one?
Saul.
No: the Church of Chriſt is but one, whereſoeuer diſperſed in all the world: but this Church partly through the ambition and couetouſneſſe of the Popes of Rome, and of the reſt of the chiefe of the Clergie, and partly through blind deuotion, became very corrupt, both in doctrine, and manner of ſeruing God, wherein hauing lyon many yeares to the griefe of the truely zealous and wiſe, who did what they could or durſt to rectifie things againe, but without effect, at length (though very loth ſo to doe) many without feare of bodily danger ſeparated themſelues from all ſociety and communion with thoſe, that ſtill adliered to theſe curruptions, teaching and holding as hath be one before deelared; who notwithſtanding the hot brunts of perſecution, which they met withall, increaſed dayly; whole Countreys and Kingdomes, being in a ſhort time by Gods prouidence ioyned vntounto them. And becauſe of this reformation, about which they made then proteſtation, that ſimply for conſcience towards God, and his Truth, and onelyonly according to his written Word they thus proceeded, they were called the Reformed or Proteſtant Church: others willfully cleauing to their corruptions ſtill, and to the Pope and Roman Clergy, the chiefe maintainers hereof, were called the Church of Rome, or the Popiſh Church, or as they needes will hauehave it, Roman Catholikes.
Serg. Paul.
Then it ſeemeth, that the Church anciently one, is now become two, the one oppoſite to the other. Or, are they both one Church ſtill, but diuided for their contrary opinions, and manners in many things?
Saul.
As the Church of Chriſt hath beene, ſo it ſtill is, and euer ſhall bee one, and not two; for it is Chriſt; Spouſe, which is onelyonly one. I doe not therefore acknowledge, but aduiſedly deny the Church of Rome to be a true Church of Chriſt:Reu. 3.1. As the Church of Sardis had a name to be aline, but was dead, ſo it may hold this name ſtill, but is indeed a very carkaſſe without a ſoule, by reaſon of the groſſe errours therein maintained and practiſed: for truth is the life of the Church. The reformed Church then is the onelyonly true Church, neither may we returne againe to them vponupon paine of damnation: but they muſt and ſhall come to vsus at the laſt; for truth is ſtronger then all.
Serg. Paul.
But the maine truth is ſtill maintained in the Church of Rome: viz. That Ieſus is the Sonne of God: and haſt not thou thy ſelfe taught, 1. Cor 3.that who ſo buildeth vponupon the foundation Chriſt Ieſus, though but hay or ſtubble, which ſhall hurne, yet himſelfe ſhall eſcape as it were through the fire? What is this, but that ſo Chriſt bee cleaued vntounto, no erroneous opinions or practice in the ſeruice of God ſhall damne the ſoule.
Saul.
The Church of Rome teacheth indeed generally this truth touching Chriſt Ieſus, but in the particular explication of what they hold hereabout, they doe plainly raze this foundation, and ſo their building is not vponupon the foundation Chriſt deſcribed in the New Teſtament, but imagined in their owne braines. Againe, although the foundation were rightly held, yet they are builders onelyonly that ſhall be ſaued, not deſtroyers or demoliſhers, as they of the Church of Rome are.
Serg. Paul.
Wherein doe they raze the foundation Chriſt?
Saul.
In that they doe not rely vponupon Chriſt only for ſaluation and grace. For this is the property of a foundation, to beare vp all the building alone, if it be the only foundation, as I hauehave taught, that Chriſt is. If then the building reſt partly vponupon ſome other foundation, this is in effect razed, becauſe though this be ſound, yet the other vponupon which it partly ſtandeth being deceitfull and vnſound, when that ſhall faile, the whole building cannot but come downe.
Serg. Paul.
It ſeemeth then, that Chriſt is the foundation to them onelyonly that reſt vponupon him alone; and that they which together with him rely vponupon any thing elſe, are in effect gone from the foundation, and ſo ſhall hauehave no more benefit of it, then they that hold not Chriſt at all. Can you proue the Roman Catholikes to be ſuch?
Saul.
There is nothing more plaine to them that will vnderſtand. For firſt, when Chriſt only is relyed vponupon, and ſo made the onelyonly ſoundation, his paſſions alone are held to be fully ſatisfactory for all puniſhments due to vsus for all our ſins both temporall and eternall. Secondly, all merit whereby we become worthy of ſaluation is held to be in him onelyonly. Thirdly, His mediation onelyonly to God the Father, is reſted vponupon to obtaine any benefit or helpe in the time of need. Fourthly, The beginning, progreſſe and perfection of all grace is imputed to him onelyonly through the working of his Spirit, and nothing to a mans ſelfe. But the contrary to all theſe are maintained in the Church of Rome.
Serg. Paul.
Declare this more particularly, and firſt, that they rely not vponupon his paſſions onelyonly as fully ſatisfactory.
Saul.
They ſay that he hath ſatisfied for all eternall puniſhments in hell, but not for temporall: for theſe are left to vsus to be ſatisfied for, partly here by acts of penance, and partly hereafter in purgatory. And that there are certaine leſſer ſinnes called veniall, for which we our ſelues muſt ſatisfie. Flatly contrary to Saint Iohn, who ſaith,1. Ioh 1.6. the blood of Ieſus Chriſt cleanſeth vsus from all ſin. And I hauehave taught that Chriſt hath redeemed vsus from the curſe of the Law being made a curſe for vsus: Gal. 3.13.Now this curſe did as well extend to temporall as eternall puniſhments, witneſſe Moſes his dilating vponupon it, Deut. 28. and Leuit. 26. throughout which Chapters he ſheweth that the curſe comming by ſinne is temporall.
Serg. Paul.
If Chriſt had ſatisfied herein for vsus, were it not iniuſtice in God to put his to ſo much ſmart againe daily, by ſickeneſſes, loſſes, ignominies, and perſecutions in the world?
Saul.
It were iniuſtice indeed, if our ſins being forgiuen and clenſed away in Chriſts blood, hee ſhould ſtill require vsus to be temporally paniſhed.Luke 23.16. This were iuſt Pilates iuſtice. I finde no fault in this man, I will therefore ſcourge him, and let him goe. God forbid, that wee ſhould once thinke the moſt righteous Lord to be ſuch in his proceedings. It is to bee vnderſtood therefore, that the ſmart impoſed vponupon vsus here is onelyonly either for our triall, or for our correction in louelove, as parents are wont to deale with their children.
Serg. Paul.
What doe they hold touching merit?
Saul.
That Chriſts death and paſſion alone, are not the meritorious cauſe of our ſaluation, but the bleſſed Virgin Mary, and the holy Apoſtles, and other Saints which hauehave ſuffered death for the Goſpell, hauehave alſo merited for vsus; and that there is merit in the ſacrifice of the Maſſe, extended to all both quicke and dead; and in the workes of the regenerate through which they become worthy of heauen.
Serg. Paul.
The Saints are ſo neere vntounto Chriſt, as that it ſeemeth to be all one to aſcribe merit vntounto their paſſions, and to hi… if they were diuerſe from him, it were to lay another foundation indeed. Haſt not thou written to the ſame effect ſaying, Col. 1.24.I fulfill thereſt of the afflictions of Chriſt in my fleſh for his body which is his Church? And touching the Maſſe, and good workes of the regenerate, whatſoeuer vertue is aſcribed hereunto, it tendeth the more to the magniſying of Chriſts merit, which is able to giuegive vertue to other things to m…rit alſo.
Saul.
Theſe are plauſible reaſons indeed to d…ceiue the ſimple, but he which hath any vnderſtanding can conſider, that by the like reaſon the ſunne, moone and ſtarres, might ſafety be aſſociated vntounto God in diuine worſhip, for they are neere vntounto him alſo. And for that ſaying of mine, if any other part of my writing, or of the whole Bible did ſound to the ſeconding of ſuch an acception, it might well bee taken ſo: but conſidering, that I hauehave plainly profeſſed elſewhere, that Paul is nothing, and Apoſlo nothing, 1. Cor. 3. Phil. 3.9.and that Chriſts righteouſneſſe is that onelyonly wherein I deſire to bee found. Mee thinkes what I hauehave ſaid to the Coloſſians ſhould not be wreſted ſo, but bee ſimply taken of my ſufferings, in going about to doe good vntounto the Church, which I call Chriſts ſufferings, becauſe vndergone for him, who taught me ſometime,Act. 9. that the perſecuting of his members was the perſecuting of himſelfe. Laſtly, where there is any ſuch extent of the vertue of Chriſts paſſion to make other things meritorious certaine, it is good to acknowledge and extoll it, but out of this caſe, as it is in the matter of the Maſſe, and of good workes, it is a plaine derogating from Chriſts merit the onelyonly ſure foundation, and a razing of it. That there is no merit in theſe things hath beene ſufficiently ſhewed heretofore.
Serg. Paul.
But did not the bleſſed Virgin Mary merit any thing for vsus by thoſ paſſions, which ſhe had together with Chriſt in her ſoule, when he hung vponupon the Croſſe?
Saul.
I am glad that you put me in mind againe to ſpeak of this, that the abhomination of the Romiſh religion might the more appeare. For indeed they make her aboue all the Saints, not onelyonly a mediatrix of interceſſion, but of Redemption alſo: affirming, that her ſtanding by when the Lord ſuffered vponupon the croſſe, full of ſorrow to be hold it, was a ioyning with him in our Redemption: and therefore, where as it is ſaid of Chriſt, hee ſhall breake the Serpents head, they turne it ſhe; and whereas the Prophet ſaith in his perſon,Gen. 3. I hauehave troden the winepreſſe alone, there was no man with me, Eſa. 63.3.they ſay there was no man indeed, but that bleſſed woman: yea and ſo farre be the Ieſuites gone in their dotage about her meriting, as that they make compariſons betwixt her milke and Chriſts blood, aſcribing as much to the one, as to the other, as appeareth in the booke called, The Ieſuits Goſpell.
Serg. Paul.
Touching his mediatorſhip, doe they rely vponupon any other Mediators;
Saul.
Yes that they doe, for they make both the Virgin Mary, and all the Saints departed mediators vntounto God for them in all their common prayers, deſiring them to pray for them, and ſometimes as though they had the diſpoſing of heauen, that they would conferre vponupon them the Kingdome of heauen.
Serg. Paul.
Although Chriſt be the onelyonly Mediator of Redemption, yet there are more mediators of interceſſion, for we all muſt pray one for another. It ſeemeth therefore that this doth no more raze the foundation, then deſiring the Elders of the Church to pray for vsus in the time of ſickneſſe.
Saul.
I hauehave already ſpoken enough to ſhew the error of this practice. It ſhall ſuffice therefore onelyonly to adde thus much more, that this diſtinction betwixt a Mediator of Redemption & of interceſſion in heauen is vaine: for as Chriſt is the onelyonly propitiation for our ſinnes, 1 Iohn 2.2. Rom. 8.34.ſo hee onelyonly at the right hand of God maketh interceſſion for vsus. If any elſe doe the like it is concealed from vsus, neither are wee bidden to come by them, but altogether by the Sonne vntounto the Father. Moreouer, we cannot come by any in heauen vntounto God, but wee muſt aſcribe vntounto them the diuine attribute of omniſcience… wherby they know all things though neuer ſo remote from them, which is to rob the Lord of his peculiar honour, as if Maieſty or Supreme power were aſcribed to any of the kings ſubiects.
Serg. Paul.
Proceed new to the laſt point: what doe they hold touching the beginning and proceedings of Grace?
Saul.
They teach, that there is in eueryevery man free will, whereby hee can deſire, and doe preparatiue workes vntounto grace, which the Lord beholding hath mercy vponupon him, and inlargeth him, being before in priſon and bound as it were with chaines, and then hee becommeth able to doe according to his deſire, that is, perfectly to fulfill Gods Commandements, for which he ſhall finally hauehave the reward of eternall glory beſtowed vponupon him.
Serg. Paul.
And hauehave they not good ground for this in the example of Cornelius,Act. 10. whoſe almes and prayers done before his conuerſion were acceptable to God, ſo as that hereupon Peter was ſons vntounto him, and the holy Ghoſt was beſtowed vponupon him?
Saul.
God had wrought in the heart of Cornelius before this,Act. 10.2. for hee is ſaid to hauehave beene a deuout man and one that feared God, which could not hauehave been ſpoken of him, if he had been a meere naturall man. Therefore from his example no good argument can be made to proue preparatiue works in naturall men. Hee had doubtleſſe ſo much grace, and knowledge, as was incident to the faithfull before Chriſts comming in the fleſh, onelyonly hee wanted the knowledge of his perſon in particular already come, to preach which, and that withall he might receiue the holy Ghoſt, Peter was ſent vntounto him,
Serg. Paul.
But how doth this raze the foundation Chriſt?
Saul.
Becauſe vponupon Chriſt all our well deſiring and doing doth depend. We cannot thinke a good thought as of our ſelues, but all our ſufficiency is of God: 2. Cor. 3.5. Ioh. 15.5. 1. Cor. 1. Gen. 6.5.and the Lord hath plainly ſaid, without me ye can doe nothing, and touching a naturall man, the wiſdome of God is fooliſhneſſe vntounto him, all the imaginations of his beart are onelyonly euill continually. To teach that then, whereby a man ſhall bee brought in part to rely vponupon himſelfe, is in effect to diſanull Chriſt, the alone ground of our well doing and deſiring.
Serg. Paul.
I am well ſatisfied by this, touching your firſt reaſen, prouing, that the Roman Church is no true Church of God, me thought you game me an hint of a further reaſon, in ſaying that buildert onelyonly vponupon the foundation Chriſt ſhould be ſaued, and not demoliſhers. Can you proue the Romane Catholikes to bee demoliſhers?
Saul.
You did not conceiue amiſſe: for this word building is very notable in the text: Now that they are not builders, but demoliſhers I make it plaine thus: Hee onelyonly buildeth vponupon a foundation, that erecteth ſomewhat vponupon it, though it bee but ſleighty & weake, but if ſtanding vponupon this foundation he breaketh in peeces, and diſanulleth the chiefe materials of the building, he buildeth not but demoliſheth. And thus doth the Roman Churh, for bearing herſelfe vponupon the foundation Chriſt, ſhe teacheth to tranſgreſſe Gods Commandements, and to proceed contrary to his ordinances, which are the chiefe materialls of the ſpirituall building.
Serg. Paul.
Wherein doe they commend tranſgreſſing againſt Gods Lawes and Ordinances.
Saul.
In exciting the people to get them images, and to bow before them in prayer plainly againſt the ſecond commandement, which they ſeeing into, hauehave therefore put this commandement out of their Catechiſmes: in appointing the Sacrament of Lords Supper to bee adminiſtred to the people in one kind onelyonly againſt Chriſts inſtitution: in forbidding the people to read the Scriptures, and commending ignorance, as the mother of deuotion, againſt that expreſſe charge, ſearch the Scriptures: in appointing ſeruice in an vnknowne tongue,1. Cor. 14. being the repreſentation of Babel, that by reaſon of ſtrange tongues could not bee built, for ſo hereby ſuch an vncertaine ſound is made, as that no edification commeth of it: in abſoluing ſubiects from their allegeance to their lawfull Prince: in diſpenſing with treaſons, murthers, periuries, and inceſtuous mariages: in maintaining lying, vnderunder the names of equiuocations and mentall reſeruations: in condemning mariage in ſome ſort of people more then fornication: in exempting the Clergie from the power of the ciuill Magiſtrate, and ſetting vp the Pope aboue all both ſpirituall and temporall things: all which who knoweth not to be flatly againſt Gods Commandements.
Serg. Paul.
Yet there are many things wherein they are builders, in that they make many prayers, and condemne drunkenneſſe, pride, vncleanneſſe, oppreſſion, &c. and exhort vntounto the contrary vertues.
Saul.
Thoſe things which hauehave beene already ſpoken being ſo, they cannot bee counted builders any more then notorious wicked perſons, who notwithſtanding their praying and ſome good cutward ſeeming things in them, are ſaid to be deſtroyers of the Law; for ſo the Prophet complaineth,Pſal. 119.126. It is time for thee Lord to put to thy hand, for men deſtroy thy Law. How is this but by tranſgreſſing? and if ſimply to tranſgreſſe be a deſtroying of the Law, much more to teach and maintaine tranſgreſſing, and to oppoſe and deſtroy ſuch as dare not herein offend God, as the Romaniſts doe by fire and ſword.
Serg. Paul.
I cannot ſee how they can defend themſelves, if theſe be their courſes, but that they muſt come vnderunder that cenſure. Hee that breaketh the leaſt of theſe commandements,Mat. 5.19. and teacheth others to doe ſo, ſhall bee counted the leaſt in the Kingdome of Heauen. HaueHave you any thing elſe againſt them to proue that they build not, but demoliſh and deſtroy?
Saul.
There is one thing more, which may be reckoned a chiefe thing in this building, and that is faith. For when the foundation Chriſt is rightly laid, it is builded vponupon him by faith and louelove, theſe in ſhort comprehending the whole edifice: ſo that hee which buildeth theſe two, is indeed a builder, and ſhall be ſaued, though he buildeth withall hay and ſtubble of curious ſpeculations, frothy doctrine, or erroneous conceits, about points more myſticall, as his weake iudgement miſ-leadeth him. Now louelove is the fulfilling of the Law: and herein I hauehave ſhewed that the Romaniſts build not, but deſtroy: and as I hauehave ſhewed touching that, ſo I will further declare, to aching faith, that they build not by teaching it rightly, but deſtroy by putting true faith downe, and bringing in an vnſound and vaine faith?
Serg. Paul.
How ſhall that appeare?
Saul.
Very eaſily. For a ſound faith is to beleeue ſtedfaſtly, without doubting, in regard of the defects in vsus, caſting our ſelues vponupon Gods mercy in Ieſus Chriſt for ſaluation, becauſe he hath promiſed, and is able to effect it. For Abrahams faith, which is ſet forth for an example of a ſound faith, is thus deſcribed. He doubted …t, Rom. 4.10.neither conſidered the deadneſſe of his owne body, &c. See the place, Rom. 4. But they maintaine, that there is no aſſurance to bee had by faith, but onelyonly by hope, to the lift moment of our liues, and that we cannot but be doubtfull, without ſpeciall reuelation, in regard of out owne corruptions, through which wee may fall away when we hauehave gone furtheſt in grace, flatly againſt that which is ſaid to hauehave beene done by Abraham our patterne.
Serg. Paul.
This doth not ſeeme to be a deſtroying of faith, but humilitie for a mans owne vnworthineſſe.
Saul.
They pretend humility endeed, but wee bee to that humilitie that denyeth the true inſtrument, which only can helpe vsus to heauen, and taketh a counterfeit in ſtead of it. For they teach, that faith is onelyonly to beleeue the things contained in the holy Scriptures, and that as the Church beleeueth them, without knowing in particular what theſe things are,Iam. 2. or applying them to a mans owne ſoule in particular. Which if it be true faith, then the deuill hath true faith: for he beleeueth thus, and goeth a little further, becauſe he vnderſtandeth what he beleeueth.
Serg. Paul.
Is it not then a ſound faith, vnleſſe it be ſtedfast? oh how vncomfortable is this to many poore ſoules that cannot attaine to any ſuch certainty?
Saul.
It is therefore to be vnderſtood, that though this be the vertue of a ſound faith to aſſure the ſoule; yet it is often a long time, before a beleeuer commeth to this. For euen as the impe muſt ſtand long in the ſtocke, before it cloſeth with it, and becommeth very faſt; ſo this aſſurance commeth after long experience, and continuance in Chriſt by faith.
Serg. Paul.
I am reſolued now, that this Romiſh Church greatly erreth and dangerouſly too: but there are many in that Church, that know not the depth of theſe things: but onelyonly beleeue a Purgatorie, and pray for the dead, and beſeech the Saints departed to helpe them, and vſe croſſing, and Holy Water, and receiue the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament, as Chriſts reall body and blood, adoring it therefore with many the like ſuperſtitions. Is there any great danger to them, being ignorantly miſſ-led, and doing herein but as they are perſwaded they ought to doe?
Saul.
There is no leſſe danger to them,Deut. 13. then vntounto their Leaders, no more then there was vntounto ſuch as were ſeduced to idolatry. For as they alſo muſt dye for it without all partialitie: ſo the ſimply miſ-led Papiſt cannot but expect ruine with this Leader,Math. 15.14. For if the blind leade the blind, they ſhall both fall into the ditch. OnelyOnly the iudgement of the Leader ſhall be greater, eſpecially if in ſiniſter reſpects, his conſcience being conuicted by the truth, he doth yet perſiſt in vpholding errour, as experience hath taught that many of them hauehave done.
Serg. Paul.
It ſtandeth with good reaſon that they which wittingly preferre errour, ſhould beare the burthen of it: but methinkes ſuch as are miſ-led by them, following their conſcience, ſhould not periſh: for many of them ſerue God according to their profeſſion with a good heart.
Saul.
Errour is of that nature, as that it is damnable in whomſoeuer. Firſt, becauſe it is contrary to truth, which ſanctifieth and maketh free. For ſo the Lord hath prayed,Ioh. 17.17. Ioh. 8.32. Sanctifie them by thy Truth, and hath pronounced, the truth ſhall make you free. Wherefore contrariwiſe errour polluteth and enthralleth, and ſo debarreth from entring heauen,Reuel. 22. becauſe no vncleane thing ſhall enter there; and the bond-woman ſhall bee caſt out with her children. Secondly,Gal. 4. becauſe it is a iudgement vponupon thoſe onelyonly that periſh, and are damned; to hauehave their eyes blinded, and to bee giuen ouer to deluſions, as I hauehave ſhewed, 2 Cor. 4.4. 2 Theſ. 2.11. Thirdly, becauſe God is truth, and the Deuill is a lyar; and therefore by error the minde is out of the way to God, and can neuer enioy him, but is in the right way to the Deuill.
Serg. Paul.
Any one of theſe reaſons is ſufficient to proue their wofull caſe. But may there not be any meanes found out to reconcile theſe two Religions, by yeelding ſomewhat on both ſides, and by laying aſide auſteritie and ſtrangeneſſe, and by putting on lenity and familiaritie one towards another?
Saul.
In all the particular points of difference I hauehave made it plaine, that we are in the truth: as therefore if wee would not goe from God, we muſt not go from any of theſe things either in faith, or practice… for …hat were but to yeeld to accompany them in the way to perdition, and not to doe any thing aduantageous to their ſoules. Wherefore they muſt yeeld vntounto vsus, and as we hauehave already done, come out of this Babel of errours, and ſuperſtitions, if euer they will inioy true peace and comfort to Godward. In the meane ſeaſon, if gentle and perſwaſiue meanes would doe them any good, they hauehave them in greater meaſure then they could expect, conſidering their forepaſſed cruelty, and rigour: but for familiaritie and boſome friendſhip, it is expreſſely againſt that charge;Tit. 3.10. An Hereticke after once or twice admonition auoid.
Serg. Paul.
I thanke you moſt heartily for this light which you hauehave giuen vntounto me, and I thanke God, who ſent you vntounto me, by whoſe grace I reſolue to liue and dye in the faith which you hauehave declared, and after no other manner to worſhip God. And for this you ſhall no more be called Saul: but becauſe I count you my beſt friend in the world, and ſo another very ſelfe, you ſhall be called after mine owne name Paul, becauſe I know not otherwiſe how to expreſſe how nearely to my heart I hauehave placed you for your good inſtructions this day giuen vntounto me.
Elymas.
Moſt excellent and worthy Gouernor: I am ſorie to heare that a man of your place, and wiſdome, ſhould hauehave his eares and minde ſo much abuſed, by the ſeducing words of an Arch-hereticke. Is your Church the onelyonly True Church of God, and is the Church of the Catholikes a falſe Church, or none at all? (Oh God) what will not theſe men perſwade vntounto? Is it not manifeſt to all the world, that yee are a company of Heretikes, and Schiſmaticks, and a Church but of yeſterday, or ſince Luthers time at the moſt? Was God without a Church, till your faction began? What impudencie is this to abuſe Noble Gouernours of Countreys thus, by drawing them from the Catholike Church of Rome, that hath euer been famous through the world, for conſtant cleauing to the Chriſtian Religion.
Paul.
Thou bewitching Sophiſter, and beguiler of ſimple ſoules, is is knowne to all men, that this is your vſuall falſe ſlander of our Church, and the chiefe ſtring to your Bow: ſo that when yee hauehave nothing elſe to fay, your refuge ſtill is the old Religion, the old Religion: what will ye forſake the old Religion for a new? But to follow you and beat you with your owne weapon. Be it knowne, that the reformed Religion, is the old Religion indeed, and the preſent religion of the Church of Rome a new religion; of which this noble perſon preſent ſhall be iudge, ſeeing you hauehave prouoked me to enter theſe liſts with you.
Elymas.
I am content that either he or any man ſhal iudge herein betweene vsus, and if you can proue what you hauehave ſ…yd, I will loſe the day.
Paul.
I proue it therefore thus. The Religion commended to vsus by Gods Spirit in the holy Scriptures is the old Religion; and that whereof men of later times are authors is new in compariſon of it: But the reformed is thus commended to vsus, as I hauehave already fully declared, and the Religion of the preſent Church of Rome is from men of latter times. Ergo.
Elymas.
Neither is the Proteſtant Religion commended in the holy Scriptures, nor the Roman Catholike Religion inuented by man ſince. For, as much as you bragge of the Scriptures, you hauehave not one plaine ſentence in your owne Bible for any one point of your Religion, without adding, altering or gloſſing vponupon it, as is your vſuall manner. And for our Religion, ſhew if you can, when and by whom thoſe points which you call errors, were inuented: for wee hold, that all things hauehave euer ſince the Apoſtles times been thus.
Paul.
I maruell that you and your fellow, whoſoeuer hee was, that wrote the book blaſphemouſly intituled, The gag for the Goſpell, are not aſhamed ſo boldly to charge vsus, that we hauehave not one plaine place of Scripture. What is that ſaying of our Lord, Thou ſhalt worſhip the Lord thy God, and him onelyonly ſhalt thou ſerue. Mat. 4.10.Doe not both the words and the circumſtances plainly make for vsus, denying to fall downe and worſhip any but God, otherwiſe Chriſt had not ſpoken ſo appoſitè to Satan, bidding him to fall downe and worſhip him. What is that command? Thou ſhalt not make to thy ſelfe any grauen image, &c. And againe,Deut. 4.15. Take good heed vntounto your ſelues, for ye ſaw no manner of ſimilitude on the day that the Lord ſpake vntounto you in Ho…eb, leſt you corrupt your ſelues, and make you a grauen image, the ſimilitude of any figure, &c. What is this ſaying? There is one God, 1. Tim. 2.4. 2. Cor. 3.5. Phil. 2.13.and one Mediator betwixt God and man, the man Chriſt Ieſus: and this, Wee are not ſufficient of our ſelues to thinke a good thought as of our ſelues: and this, God worketh in you the will and the deed of his own good pleaſure; with many more text… before alleaged, which I ſpare to repeat; So that we may moſt truely affirme, that there is no one tenent of our Church, but we hauehave a plaine place of Scripture for it: but it may truly be retorted vponupon you, that you hauehave not one plaine place for any one of your tenents or practices, ſo that ye are faine miſerably to wreſt and ſtraine any text hence alledged, and when that will not doe, to fly to Apochryphall bookes, traditions, and ridiculous fables.
Elym.
Are all theſe ſayings in your Bible, if they bee, it is more then I know, but ſure I am, that there are ſentences plainly teaching the ſame that we doe. For what elſe is that ſaying of our Sauiour; This is my body, and, my fleſh is meat indeed, and blood, drinke indeed: and, vponupon this rocke will I build my Church: and, to thee will I giuegive the Keyes of the Kingdome of heauen: and againe, Peter feed my ſheepe. And touching the Church,Math. 18.17. 1 Tim 3.15. If he heareth not the Church, let him be to thee as an Ethnicke: and, the Church is the ground and pillar of truth. Touching other points we need none other Scripture, ſeeing to the Church it is promiſed;Ioh. 16.13. When he is come which is the ſpirit of truth, he will lead you into all truth. Wherefore the Church cannot erre, and whatſoeuer is by her propounded, as matter of faith, or practice, muſt needs then be right: But bee it knowne vntounto you, that wee want not plaine places for particular points. Touching iuſtification.Iam. 2.24. A man is not iuſtified by faith onelyonly, but by workes. Touching prayer for the dead. There is a ſinne vntounto death, I ſay not, that yee ſhould pray for it. 1 Ioh. 5.16. Iam. 5.14. Luke 7.47. Math. 25.Touching extreame vnction. They ſhall pray for him and anoint him in the name of the Lord. Touching the merit of workes. Many ſinnes are forgiuen her, becauſe ſhee hath loued much: and, Come ye bleſſed, &c. for I was hungry, and yee fed me, &c. For time would faile me, if I ſhould go on to alleage all the places, that plainly make for vsus.
Paul.
You doe well ſo to ſlieglit our euidences brought out of the holy Scriptures, becauſe they are ſo plaine, that they cannot bee anſwered; neither indeed doe your ſect much acquaint your ſelues with the Bible: for there are ſome ſtudents in Diuinity of many yeares, that neuer read the Bible. To your places therefore: How doth the ſpeech of our Sauiour make for Tranſubſtantiation, without altering or adding? It is meat indeed, we confeſſe, but he ſaith not, is meat for the body, nor yet in explaining himſelf afterwards hath he one word intimating a bodily ſubſtance that he would giuegive to be fed vponupon, but the clean contrary, for he ſaith,Ioh. 6.63. the fleſh profiteth nothing, my words are ſpirit and life. Againe, for thoſe ſayings vntounto Peter, there is nothing plaine for Peters ſupremacy, for his bearing vp all, as a foundation, and much leſſe for his pretended ſucceſſours the Biſhops of Rome. For plainly to teach theſe things had beene to hauehave ſaid, vponupon thee and thy ſucceſſours will I build my Church, and to thee and to him that ſhall ſucceed thee in thy Biſhopricke at Rome, I will giuegive authority ouer all others. But ſo far is the Lord from this, that when there was iuſt, occaſion offered vponupon the motion of the mother of Zebedees children, to declare the ſupreme, & when they contended about it amongſt themſelues, hee ſpeaketh no word to ſettle the ſupremacy vponupon any one, but altogether to ſtop the mouth of any from once challenging it. But I hauehave ſpoken ſufficiently of this before, ſo that I ſhall not need to adde any thing about his commiſſion to feed his ſheepe. It is maruaile that when all chiefe points of faith are ſo plainely expreſſed, that this which is ſo much ſtood vponupon, as inferiour to none, ſhould be ſo obſcurely paſſed ouer. Touching the Church there is nothing plainely ſpoken, that it ſhall be alwayes viſible, but onelyonly it may be implyed, that as long as there are Chriſtians to doe thoſe mutuall offices of reproouing one another for ſinne, there ſhall be a diſcipline exerciſed in the Church how corrupt ſoeuer, for the chaſtiſement of ſuch as are complained of, as manifeſt tranſgreſſors of the Law the iuſt proceedings whereof, notwithſtanding the corruptions, are of force to the terror of malefactors. For that ſaying, tell the Church, at that time had reference to a moſt corrupt Church of Scribes and Phariſees, whoſe authority was yet by the Lord eſtabliſhed, ſaying,Math. 23.1. whatſoeuer they bid you obſerue, that obſerue and doe. So that from hence nothing more can be rightly taught, no not by inference, but that there ſhall alwayes be ſome viſible Church good or bad, which we alſo acknowledge. But in caſe that there bee two ſuch Churches together, who doubteth forſaking that which is corrupt, to goe to the beſt and ſoundeſt. Touching error, from which you ſeeke to exempt your Church, becauſe the Church is called the gound and pillar of truth, what is this to the preſent Church of Rome, the ſinke of moſt groſſe errors and ſuperſtitions. The true Church indeed, ſuch as it was in thoſe dayes founded vponupon the Prophets and Apoſtles, Chriſt himſelfe being the chiefe corner ſlone, Epheſ. 2.20.was the ground of truth, becauſe therein the truth was preſerued and vpheld, and whereſoeuer it is ſo at this day, that Church is likewiſe the ground and pillar of truth. But it doth not neceſſarily follow, that whereſoeuer the Church is, whether ſound or corrupt, it is the ground of truth, for ſo much as the truth held and eleaued vntounto in all things maketh the Church the pillar and ground of truth, and not the Church that to be true whatſoeuer ſhe ſhall think good to propound. For otherwiſe Chriſt, the Prophets & Apoſtles, with their dictates, inſtitutions, and writings ſhould not bee a ground vntounto men ſucceeding and inferiour to them, but theſe men ſhould bee a ground vntounto them, which were abſurd. And the ſame I anſwer to that promiſe of the ſpirit, it was peculiar to the Apoſtles and ſpecial inſtruments ſtirred vp for thoſe times, to be ſo guided into all truth, as not to erre, becauſe what came from them was to bee a ground to the faithfull in all ſucceeding ages, and it is moſt palpably wreſted to your Church now. And if your fundamentall places be thus impertinently alledged, the reſt will fall without any labour, at the leaſt (moſt worthy Sergius) you may be able to iudge hereof by that, which hath beene already ſpoken in laying open the faith of the reformed Church.
Serg. Paul.
When theſe places were firſt alledged by Elymas, I thought it impoſſible to anſwer them and therefore did begin to incline to thinke better of the Roman Church, then you had perſwaded me: but now I ſee that they are but the painting and colouring of a deformed face, being without all true beauty. And for the places omitted, I hauehave them ſo freſhly in my memory, ſince you reſolued them vntounto me, at that I am fully reſelued, that they are but wreſted and wrung by the aduerſary to ſorne his turne.
Elym.
But by your fauour (ſir) nothing hath yet beene ſayd to one place plainly diſtinguiſhing betwixt veniall and mortall ſinnes, and concluding prayer for ſome dead, viz. that ſinne not vntounto death, but are penitent, before they dye.
Paul.
You doe well to recall that againe, which I thought not worth the anſwering. How can it be ſpoken of mortall and veniall ſinnes? Is he that hath ſinned a mortall ſinne to be giuen ouer then, as a deſperate Reprobate, and not to bee prayed for any more? What is this, but to condemne Peter himſelfe, and Dauid, and Manaſſeh, &c. as vnworthy to bee prayed for? If your diſtinction of mortall and veniall ſinnes hauehave no better ground but this, it is ſet vp altogether vponupon the ſands. And for praying for any dead, nothing can bee more abſurd, then to alledge this: for he doth not note out the time of continuing, or breaking off from ſinne, as making his caſe that hath ſinned, deſperate, or reparable by the prayers of others, by reaſon of this circumſtance, but plainely in it ſelfe, for hee ſaith, There is a ſinne vntounto death. And againe, There is a ſinne not vntounto death; that is, in plaine Engliſh, there is a ſinne, which who ſo committeth it, ſhall dye therefore, without all hope of life, whatſoeuer prayers ſhould be made for him: but there is ſinne alſo, the proper ſequell and wages whereof is death; yet not ſo neceſſarily, but remiſſion and life may be obtained notwithſtanding. And if it be taken in this ſenſe, there is the conſent of other places to confirme it, as that. All ſinnes ſhall bee forgiuen to the ſonnes of men, but he that ſinneth againſt the Holy Ghoſt, ſhall neuer bee forgiuen, of ſuch a ſinne Saul ſeemeth to hauehave beene guilty, when the Lord forbiddeth Samuel to pray any more for him. But take it of praying for ſuch as dye repeneantly, and where can you finde any to ſecond it?
Serg. Paul.
I ſee it is in vaine for you (Elymas) to hold argument with him any longer by the teſtimonies of holy Scripture: preceed therefore to your plea of antiquitie, for therein …o… may happen to put him downe indeed.
Paul.
It muſt needs bee ſo (Sir) as you hauehave ſaid; for whatſoeuer flouriſhes they make, their conſcience telleth them, that the Scriptures are againſt them, ſeeing they can no more abide them, then the …tle the day-light. Why elſe doe they keep them lockt vp in an vnknowne tongue? Why doe they condemne our tranſlations, as hereticall, and allow onelyonly of Ieromes tranſlation: for it were a mad part for them to condemne and forbid that, which maketh on their ſide. This their cracking therefore of the Scriptures is but a fruit of their late impudency, putting them on to vndertake the proofe of any thing, that can bepropounded. But they are very confident, that we cannot demonſtrate in particular the time and perſons, when and by whom their falſe doctrines were broached, and their ſuperſtitions brought in, yet I feare as little to enter the liſts with him about this argument, as about the other.
Elymas.
And I doubt not but to put you to ſhame enough in ſo doing: for the moſt ancient Orthodoxe Fathers of the Church hauehave alwayes taught the ſame that wee doe; and hauehave often mentioned the particulars of our deuotion; which yee falſly call ſuperſtition. Which being ſo, I weigh not all your places of Scripture, if you had as many more; nor your colourable anſwers to ſuch as hauehave beene by mee alledged: for the cuſtomes of the Church, and traditions deliuered from age to age, are of the ſame authoritie with the holy Scriptures; and they are rather to bee regulated hereby, as being certaine, then theſe by them, ſpeaking as eueryevery man liſteth to wreſt and turne them.
Paul.
It is a falſe ſlander by you laid vponupon the Scriptures, that they are vncertaine, and a burthening of Chriſtian people, for which you ſhall anſwere, to obtrude traditions thus vntounto them, as I hauehave before declared. To paſſe that ouer therefore here. Who can tell, whether the ancient Fathers in thoſe paſſages, wherein they hauehave made ſome mention of ſome practices by you vſed, were made to ſpeake ſo by ſome audacious forger, ſeeing there are ſo many ſuppoſititious writings falſly fathered vpō ſo many imaginary Fathers, that neuer were in rerum natura, and ſuch purging and altering of ancient Writings hath beene made of late by the authority of the Councell of Trent. Moreouer, it is poſſible that through the neglect of Hiſtorians, or wittingly in fauour of your abuſes, the originall and firſt ſpringing vp of them may be concealed. But if not, few men are read in Hiſtory, neither is hiſtory reading neceſſary to ſaluation; and therefore it maketh not any whit the more on your ſide, though they cannot preciſely ſet downe, when and by whom your hereſies and ſuperſtitions were brought in: euen as Mahumetiſme were no whit the more approueable, though the originall thereof were vnknowne. For by this reaſon the Heathen prieſts of old ſought to maintaine the credit of their idolatries, challenging the Chriſtians for imbracing a new Religion. It is a poore ſhift, when any thing is particularly diſproued by the Word of God, to cauill about the beginning of it, as if the day were loſt, if that could not be done: for if the leakes of a Ship, or the decayes of an Houſe be apparant, if corruptions within, or blemiſhes vponupon the bodie be made manifeſt: what auaileth it to approue that they are no decayes or blemiſhes, by pleading, But can any man tell, when theſe firſt began?
Elym.
Our errours, as you call them, are not ſo euident yet, as your compariſons. If you cannot therefore ſhew their beginning, it is plaine, that they were deliuered from the Apoſtles, and it is hereſie and impiety in you to impugne them.
Paul.
Doth the ſame fountaine ſend forth ſalt water and ſweet? Doth the ſame mouth ſpeake contradictories? for ſo certaine is it, that theſe things cannot bee deriued from the Apoſtles, ſeeing they are altogether againſt them. But becauſe you vige it ſo much, I will ſet downe the time and age of eueryevery part of your Religion, that the nouelty of it may appeare to all the world. And firſt I will begin with the chiefe and head of all your errours the Popes headſhip. This was firſt eſtabliſhed in a Councell at Rome of ſeuenty two Biſhops, thirty Presbyters, and three Deacons, in the time of Boniface the third, Anno Dom. 607.Plat. in vita Boniſ. 3. being then obtained of Phocas, who came to the Empire by murthering Mauritius, his Maſter: and therefore to prouide the better for himſelfe, he was willing by granting the ſupremacie ouer all, to ioyne vntounto him the Pope of Rome.Conc. Conſtant. the eight generall Councell. Afterwards there was a Councell held at Conſtantinople, in the dayes of Pope Adrian, vnderunder Baſilius the Emperour, who ſlew his aſſociate Michael, Anno Dom. 871. Wherein none were admitted, but ſuch as ſubſcribed to the Popes Supremacie: for Adrian had curried fauour with murthering Baſili…s, as Boniſace had before done with Phocas. Laſtly, there was a Councell at Lyons in the dayes of Gregory the tenth, vnderunder the Reigne of Michael Paleologus Emperor, Anno Dom. 1273, wherein the Emperour confirmed the Popes Supremacie, that he might the more ſtrengthen himſelfe by him alſo: for he was an vſurper, and murtherer, by the ſlaughter of Theodorus committed to his cuſtodie attaining to the Empire. Hee was ſo abhorred by the Grecians for yeelding herein to Gregorie, that when he was dead, they would not ſuffer his body to be buried amongſt other Chriſtians. Neither was this ſuprerr acie ſet vp by any but theſe perſons infamous for murther, except Pipin and Charles his ſonne, who attained the Kingdome of France, by the depoſition of Chelpericke the lawfull King.
Elym.
Are you not aſhamed thus to ſeeke to blindfold mens eyes? Did not Constanine the Great, long before this, finding that of right the primacie belonged to Saint Peters Chaire,Socr. lib. 2. c. 20. eſtabliſh it in the councell of Nice? And was not Iulius Biſhop of Rome appointed by the Sardian Councel to be iudge of appeales? Anno 35…. And did not the Biſhops of Rome long before Boniface, exerciſe their iuriſdiction in depoſing Patriarkes? and were they not acknowledged by the ancient Doctors to be ſupreme?
Paul.
You may well be aſhamed, I am ſure, once to ſpeake of the Councell of Nice, ſeeing the Popes plea founded hereupon, was ſo fully diſproued in the ſixt African Councell aſſembled at Carthage,Hiſt. Magd. Cent. 5.….…. Anno 'Dom. 402. in the dayes of Honorius and Theodoſius the ſecond, conſiſting of 217 Biſhops, laſting ſixe yeares together. For thither did both Sozimus, Boniface, and Celeſt…nus, Popes, ſend their Legates, requiring to hauehave the Supremacie confirmed, according to the Councell of Nice: the Decrees of that Councell were ſearcht, the Copies of them kept in the Regiſter of Alexandria, and Conſtantinople were ſent for, and, no ſuch thing being f…und, it was decreed, that no appeale ſhould henceforth be made from Africa to Rome, and this plea was condemned, as a forgery. And in a councell ſomewhat before this at Meliuis… it was decreed, that no man ſhould make appellation to Biſhops beyond the ſea, but in caſe his owne Biſhop did him wrong, hee ſhould appeale to a councell of African Biſhops. In the third African or Carth: Councell it was decreed, that the Biſhop of Rome ſhould be called the Biſhop of the firſt ſeat, but not the High Prieſt, or Prince of Prieſts, Anno 399. In the ſixt Conſtantinopolitan councell, Anno 681 vnderunder Conſtantius, Pegonatus, Pope Sergius his Legate being preſent, and ſubſcribing, it was decreed,Can. 4…. that the Patriarke of Conſtantinople was of equall authoritie with the Biſhop of Rome, though Sergius being offended, refuſed afterwards to ſubſcribe. I could reckon vp many more paſſages in councels, and worthy authors writings, and preachings, of ancient times, plainely oppugning the Popes ſupremacie, but theſe ſhall ſuffice. Touching Iulius, hee was a worthy Prclate and protector of the wronged, and therefore ſo ſet vp in the Sardian Councell, intending the dignifying of his perſon, not of his Sea. For the exerciſe of this iuriſdiction, and learned mens aſcriptions, you know, that à facto ad ins non valet conſequentia; and in the moſt learned being vnderunder the Biſhop of Rome there might be ſome flatterie.
Serg. Paul.
I did not thinke, but that the Biſhop of Rome bad euer been High Prieſt ouer all the Clergie, but it ſeemed euer to me an vſurpation in him to domincre ouer Kings and Emperors: but now I perceiue that this ſupremacie euen ouer the Clargie is but a crazie foundation, with much tugging and oppoſition, in time climbed vp into; ſo that there is enough ſpoken to diſproue his principalitie ouer Kings alſo, ſeeing this yeeldeth an argument à minore ad maius. Proceed therefore to ſome other point.
Paul.
After the Supremacy, images were brought into the Church to be worſhipped, againſt which the Emperor Leo ſetting himſelfe, ſent his Mandate to Pope Gregory the third to aboliſh them. Gregory calleth a great Councell at Rome, about Anno 720, wherein the Emperour was therefore excommunicated & depriued, & together with him Anaſtatius Patriarke of Conſtantinople. But ſoon after Conſtantinus Coprony…nus called a Councell in Conſtantinople, of 338 Biſhops, Anno 755, wherein all ſetting vp and worſhipping of images is condemned as heatheniſh: and the Fathers writing againſt them are alledged: as Epiphanius, Euſebius, Gregorius Theel. Athanaſius, Amphilochius, Chryſoſtomus and Theodorus A… cyra. After this there was a Councell held at Nice in Bythinia vnderunder Irene mother to Conſtantine, Anno 788, who moſt vnnaturally put out her ſonnes eyes, and ſo made him to end his dayes in miſery: in which aſſembly of 350 Biſhops, it was decreed, that the images of Chriſt, and of the bleſſed Virgin Mary ſhould not onelyonly be ſet vp in places of adoration: but alſo be adored, and wo ſhipped, becauſe the honour of an Image doth redound to …m, that is there by repreſented. But marke vponupon what grounds chiefely they proceeded thus. Pope Adrian wrote his Letters, wherein he telleth, how Conſtantine being a Leper, and aduiſed to bathe himſelfe in the blood of children, which he was loth to do, had an apparition of Peter and Paul, bidding him ſend for Sylueſter the Pope; who comming to him, and by the images of theſe two holy Apoſtles which he had; making known to Conſtantine, (that at the fight of them, ſaid, theſe were they) who had appeared to him, hee baptized him, and his Leproſie was cleanſed. Now all this is a meere fable, as appeareth by Euſebius, who writing the life of Conſtantine, ſheweth that Conſtantine was alwayes free from Leproſie, and baptized by Euſebius it. Nicomedia. Another great motiue to them to ſtand for images, was a fooliſh tale of a Monke, who ſaid that the Deuill tempted him continually to vncleanneſſe, and would not ceaſe, vnleſſe hee did giuegive ouer worſhipping the image of the Virgin Mary. The worſhipping of images was againe confirmed at Conſtantinople, in the time of A…rian the ſecond, Pope of Rome, Baſilius being Emperour. But betweene theſe two Councels, there was one held at Frankfort, by the appointment of Charles the Great, Anno 794, to which the Popes Legates came and offered the Decree of the laſt Councell of Nice to be confirmed: but howſoeuer ſomething in the Councell of Conſtantinople againſt images vvere diſliked; namely, the forbidding of them to be made, yet the Decree of that Nicene Councell touching the worſhipping of image… was more condemned, and that therefore iudged worthy the name neither of a Catholike, or Occumenicke Councell.
Elymas.
You are greatly miſtaken to referre the beginning of images in the Church to the time of Pope Gregorie the third: for then the hereticall Emperour attempted the aboliſhing of them, which argueth, that they were in vſe long before.
Paul.
They were in vſe indeed amongſt Heretikes, ſuch as Simon Magus, of whom Theodoret, and Auguſtine report, that he offered his owne, and the image of his Concubine to be worſhipped; and the Cretians ſo much ſpoken againſt by Saint Paul to Titus, are ſaid by Ierome to bee the firſt that brought images into the Church,Iren. lib. 2 c. 6. and the filthy Gneſticks worſhipped the image of Chriſt: but Catholike Doctors hauehave euer anciently inueighed againſt them. Euſebius Biſhop of Neoceſarea ſaith, that it commeth from the Heathen: for Heliogabilus, Alexander Seuerus, and Adrianus, Enſeb. lib. 7. c. 18Heathen Emperours, had firſt the images of Abraham, Moſes, and Chriſt in their Chappels.Epipb. Epiſt. ad Iob. …. Epiphanius wrote an Epiſtle to Iohn Biſhop of Ieruſalem, againſt the bringing of images into Churches; and he is famous for renting in pieces an image painted vponupon a cloth, behinde a Church doore: and long agoe in a Councell held at Eliberis a towne of Spaine,Can. 36. Can. 60. it was decreed, that nothing that is worſhipped ſhould bee pictured on a wall; and if any were ſlaine in breaking images down, he ſhould be put into the Catalogue of Martyrs. This Councell was in the time of Conſtantine the Great. In the Councell of Conſtantinople before ſpoken of, many ſentences of the Fathers were alledged againſt images, amongſt which that of Euſebius Pamphili is moſt remarkable. Conſtantia the Empreſſe had ſent vntounto him for the image of Chriſt, vponupon which occaſion hee write…h thus vntounto her. I would gladly know, what image of Chriſt you inquire for, if it be of the true, and vnchangeable nature bearing the Character and ingrauen ſimilitude of the Father, I hope that you are ſufficiently inſtructed, that as no man knoweth the Father, except the Sonne; ſo no man knoweth the Sonne, except the Father. If it be the image of the ſhape of a ſeruant vndertaken for our ſakes: vnderſtand that the ſplendor and ſhining brightneſſe of his glory, cannot be repreſented with dead colours: for euen the Diſciples on the Mountaine were not able to abide the brightneſſe of his ſhining face; how much leſſe are we able to abide the celeſtiall ſplendor of his glorified body?
Elymas.
All this is onelyonly againſt the worſhipping of images, which we doe not, but only hauehave them for remembrances, knowing alſo, that an image cannot repreſent perfectly the diuinitie, but put vsus in minde of him, that ſometime appeared in this ſhape.
Paul.
Indeed ſo you make your ſeduced in England beleeue: but in your ſecond Nicene Councell their worſhipping was decreed, which made the Frankfort Councell ſo much diſtaſte their proceedings. Conſtantine, Biſhop of Conſtance, in that Nicene Councell ſaid: I worſhip the holy images with the ſame worſhip, wherwith I worſhip the conſubſtantiall Trinitie. And Iohn the Legate of the Eaſt; The Image of the King is the King, and ſo the image God is God: and therefore if any man worſhippeth it with the ſame worſhip, he ſinneth not. And the chiefe pillars of the Romane Church ſince. Thomas Aquinas, and Bellarmine ſpeake to the ſame effect.Aquin. Tom 3. qu. 25. crtic. 3. The one faith; Becauſe the Croſſe repreſenteth Chriſt, who is God, it is alſo to be worſhipped with diuine worſhip.Bell. de Eccleſia triumph. l. 2.6.2. The other ſaith, that images are properly to bee worſhipped. And vntounto them we may ioyne a third ſpeaking in the name of all,Azor. lib. 9 c. 6. Azorias, who ſaith. It is the conſtant opinion of our diuines, that the image is to be worſhipped with the ſame worſhip that the thing repreſented by it. In a Councell held at London, An. 712, the chiefe ground, whereupon they proceeded for images, was the tale of a certaine Monk, Eguuinus, who affirmed vponupon oath, that the Virgin Mary appeared vntounto him in a dreame, & declared that it was her wil, that her image ſhould be ſet vp in Churches & worſhipped.
Serg. Paul.
It ſeemeth, that here in England they are aſhamed of the doctrine of worſhipping Images; and therefore they ſeeke to hide what their Church holdeth herein: and good reaſon, if the patrons of image-worſhipping bee conſidered: for if I hauehave obſerued you aright, there hauehave beene none but infamous perſons, Irene, and Baſilius for murder, the Pope of Rome for ambition, and ſuperſtitious Monkes blindly leading on the blind to the veneration of images by their fables. Enough therefore hath beene ſayd of this point, proceed now to ſome other.
Paul.
The next ſhall bee the ſingle life of men in holy Orders, becauſe there was much trouble about this at the ſame time that images were in queſtion. For in England at a Councell held at Canterbury Anno 975, there was great queſtion about it: but Dunſtan then Archbiſhop of Canterbury handled the matter ſo, that when it was likely to hauehave gone againſt him, who ſtood for a prohibition of mariage, there was a voice heard from a Crucifixe ſtanding there, that Dunſtans opinion was beſt, and thereupon they decreed againſt mariage of men in holy orders.Hiſt. Magd. Cent. 10. c. 9. But at their next meeting Falihodus a Scot learnedly proued by the holy Scriptures that mariage was lawfull for all men, and ſo their minds were againe altered taking that voice to come from the Deuill and not from God, who cannot bee contrary to himſelfe. And after this, Anno 1060, Pope Nicholas the ſecond ſent one Damianus to hold a Councell at Millan, who condemned theſe mariages as the hereſie of the Nicolaitans: whereupon a great tumult in the City followed. And after this at Erfurd, Anno 1074, a Councell was called by the Archbiſhop of Mentz, commanded ſo to doe by Gregory the ſeuenth, Pope, to which came many maried Prieſts prouing the lawfulneſſe of their mariages, and vrging the ancient practice of Clergy-men: but when they no whit preuailed, the Archbiſhop preſſing them to put away their wiues, they went out, and through great diſcontent meditated his deſtruction, whereof he being aware, fled for that time from the Councell. The next yeare being againe commanded, and the Popes Legate being preſent, he attempted the ſame buſineſſe againe at Mentz: but the Prieſts being aſſenibled, ſo terrified them both with clapping their hands, and with a vehement commotion of their bodies, that they fled away for their liues, neither durſt hee euer after aſſemble any more Councell to that end.
Elym.
You doe well to pitch vponupon theſe later times wherin Prieſts were growne more carnall and licentious: for you might if it pleaſed you, hauehave found out Councells long before theſe, determining againſt Prieſts mariage without any tumult. The 2 Carthag: Councell vnderunder Theodoſius, about Anno 380, forbad the mariage of Biſhops, Prieſts and Deacons, and in ſuch as were already maried, an abſtinence from matrimoniall ſociety. A Councell held at Altiſſidorum in France, Anno 613. ratifyed the ſame decree. And the 4 Councell of Tolledo in Spaine, Anno 639, ordained, that when Prieſts and Deacons are admitted to their offices they ſhould vow chaſtity. Yea it was a thing ſo generally receiued euen from the Apoſtles times, as that till of late yeares all were ſingle without contradiction.
Paul.
That is a notorious lye. For in the firſt Councell after the Apoſtles times, which was held at Ancyra in Galatia Anno 308, it was ordained, that Deacons p…ofeſſing at the time of their ordination that they had not the gift of continency, might afterwards marry. And in the Councell of Nice, Anno 330, the mariage of ſuch as were in holy orders comming in queſtion againe,Socrat. Lib. 1.6, 11. Paphnutim Biſhop of a towne in Thebaids being himſelfe ſingle, ſo perſwaded to leaue eueryevery man to his owne liberty, that nothing was then concluded againſt theſe mariages. And in the 2 Councell of Tolledo it was ordained,Con. Toll. Con. 1. as in the Ancyran Councell before. Now I pitcht vponupon later times, becauſe then the debating of the queſtion is ſet forth, and vponupon what grounds your Church proceeded, which is omitted in Councels foregoing. But I am glad, that you can goe no higher in this point, then the ſecond Carthag: Councell, wherein neither were their mariages condemned, but continency commended; ſo that we hauehave two Councels before you, that left mariage free to all men that could not containe.
Serg. Paul.
You hauehave ſaid enough touching this matter, and it is moſt likely, that the Dewill ſpake in the Councell of Canter …ury on Dunſtans ſide againſt Pruſts mariages, becauſe as I remember, you ſhewed me before, that to forbid mariage is the doctrine of Denils. Proceed therefore to ſome other point.
Paul.
The reall preſence ſo much ſtood vponupon ſhall bee the next. This was neuer determined, nor the word tranſubſtantiation heard of, till the Councell of L…eran, vnderunder Pope Innocent the third, Anno 1215, and the Councell held at Rome vnderunder Leo the ninth, Anno 1050 againſt Berengarius, who ſeeing that ſuch an opinion began to take place, impugned it, and was therefore condemned; and in another Councell vnderunder Pope Nicholas the ſecond, brought to recant, but hee afterwards wrote againe to iuſtifie the ſame truth, and to ſhew his repentance for his recantation.
Elym.
Herein you doe notoriouſly abuſe the world. It is true indeed, that before Berengarius his oppoſition, becauſe no man withſtood the doctrine of tranſubſtantiation it was not in a Councell determined. But doth it follow therefore, that it was not before this time maintained? HaueHave not all the Fathers that liued before, from time to time, as they had occaſion to treat of the Maſſe, taught with one conſent, a ſecret conuerſion by the Prieſts conſecration. Ambr. vſeth the very word conuerſion & mutation.Lib. 4. de ſacram. v. 4. Hom. 5. de Paſcale. Euſeb. Emiſſenus ſayth, that the Prieſt by a ſecret power doth turne the viſible creatures into the ſubſtance of Chriſts body & blood: what ſhould I here reckon vp more? Bellarmine hath numbred 32 Fathers ſpeaking to the ſame effect.
Paul.
Although the Fathers doe vſe the words conuerſion, mutation, and making, yet it is true, that I ſayd before, they neuer taught tranſubſtantiation: yea after that Leo the ninth and his Councell had condemned Berengarius, Peter Lombard one of your Schoole-men, that liued Anno 1145,Lombard. Sent. 1.4. diſt. 11. ſcanning vponupon this conuerſion, ſaith, If it be enquired what manner of conuerſion it is, whether formall or ſubſtantiall, or of any other kind, I am not able to define. And after the determination of the Lateran Councell, diuers others of your learnedeſt Schoolc-men haueing enuouſly acknowledged, that the faith of the tranſubſtantiation is founded only vponupon the determination of the Church: as Scot. in 4. Diſt. …1. … 3, art. 1. and Bi…llect 41. in Ca…. Miſſe. Petr… de A…aco in 4 Sem. qu. 5. art. 2. Conc. 2. with diuers others. To thoſe ſayings of the Fathers I anſwer, that they meant not any alteration of the ſubſtance of the bread & wine, but that it ſtill remaining, they became in a wonderfull manner Chriſts very body and blood to the faithfull receiuer. For thus Ambroſe expreſſeth himſelfe,Amb. de ſ…ram. 1.4. c. 4. …ial. 2. Gel: in Eutych. ſaying, They are the things which they were, and are changed into another thing: And Theodoret ſaith, Theſe myſticall ſignes doe not g… from their nature after their ſanctification. And Gelaſius againſt Eutychcs ſaith; The ſignes remaine in the propriety of their nature. And Dr…thmarus, that liued about An. 800, writing vponupon theſe words; 'Doe this in remembrance of mee, Drutb in …iet. 26.ſaith, the Lord turning the bread ſpiritually into his body, & the wine into his blood hath commanded vsus to do the ſame, that hereby we might remember what he hath done for vsus. Auguſtine ſaith, The Lord doubted not to ſay, This is my body, Auguſt. Cont. Adim. c. 12.when he game a ſigne of his body. I could alſo reckon vp many more, who hauehave taught, that the very bread in the Sacrament is Chriſts body, and not ſome other ſubſtance vnd…r the appearance of bread: as Iren. Iuſt in Martyr, Cyprian, Chryſoſtome, Origen, Nazianzen, &c.
Elym.
Theſe are your ſhiſts: for though you bee vrged with places and ſayings moſt plaine, you will ſtill hauehave ſome euaſion or other. Is it likely, that if tranſubſtantiation, though not in word, yet in effect had not beene generally receiued before Leo, or the Latoran Councell, that all the world without any oppoſition, but onelyonly of one Berengarius would hauehave at once yeelded vntounto it?
Paul.
I wonder that you can without bluſhing ſpeake of ſuch a generall conſent of all, when as the whole Greeke Church withſtood it tooth and nayle: for howſoener they agreed vntounto the Church of Rome in other things, yet in this point, ſuch as were preſent of them at the Councell of Flerence vnderunder Eugenius the 4, Anno 1439, could neuer bee brought to conſent: yet becauſe Eugenius was deſirous of a conſent for the credit of his Sea, hauing drawne them to ſubſcribe to his ſupremacy, the proceeding of the Holy Ghoſt, the vſe of vnleauened bread in the ſacrament, and to Purgatory, he cauſed a Bull to be publiſhed, called Bulla conſenſus, notwithſtanding their conſtant oppoſition in the point of tranſubſtantiation; but euen in other things, wherein they yeelded, ſuch diſtaſt was taken at them by the reſt of the Greeke Churches at their returne home, that they were publikely execrated therefore, and prohibited Chriſtian buriall. And for others, that opinion of the Spirits guiding the Church in the truth did ſo preuaile with them, as that they yeelded to tranſubſtantiation becauſe it was in the Lateran Councell determined, as appeareth by the confeſſion of the Schoolemen before cited,Scot. in 4 diſt. 11 qu. 3. art. 1. the firſt of whom Scotus ſayth; If it be enquired, why the Church hath choſen this ſo hard an vnderſtanding of this article about tranſubſtantiation, when as the words of the Scripture might be expounded ſafely according to a more eaſie and true ſenſe in appearance: I anſwer that the Catholike Church hath expounded the Scripture by the ſame Spirit of truth, whereby it was at the firſt deliucred.
Elym.
All this will not elude the antiquity of this doctrine. For if tranſubſtantiation were not alwayes held, why was the Maſſe called a ſacrifice, the table an altar, the Miniſter a Prieſt? why hath it alwayes beene ſhewed to the people to be worſhipped, and offered in one kind to the people, and carryed about with that reuerence, and the remainder of it kept for the ſame purpoſe in a Pixe to be ready vponupon all occaſions?
Paul.
Wee doe acknowledge that very anciently theſe names of ſacrifice, Altar, and Prieſt were vſurped, but not in your ſenſe. The table of the Lord was called an altar, becauſe the offerings of Chriſtian people comming to the holy Communion which were brought for the reliefe of the poore, were layd vponupon it, according to Ireuaus, who ſayth,Lib. 2. Cap. 32. that Chriſt by taking bread and wine taught the Diſciples a new oblation of the new Teſtament, the firſt fruits of his creatures. In thoſe Cannons, which are ſayd to be the Apoſtles,Can. 4. it is or…yned, that nothing ſhould be offered vponupon the alter but eares of corne and frankinſcenſe, and in the 3 Councell of Carthage, Can. 24.that nothing ſhould bee offered but fruits of come and grapes. And hence partly came the name ſacrifice, for almes are a ſacrifice to God: and partly becauſe of the repreſentation of Chriſts ſacrifice made hereby, ſeeing it is vſuall to call the thing repreſenting by the name of the thing repreſented.Lomb 1.4. diſt. 12. And ſo Peter Lomb…rd ſayth, that it is not properly called a ſacrifice, but becauſe it is a memoriall and repreſentation of the true ſacrifice of Chriſt vponupon the croſſe. And laſtly, for the ſacrifice of praiſe and thankeſgiuing then offered vntounto God. That Chriſtians had not altars properly ſo called is moſt plaine, from Arnobins, Arnob. lib. 6. contra gant. Orig. lib. 8. cent. Calſ.who ſayth, that the Gentiles accuſed the Chriſtians, becauſe they had no altars: and from Origen, who acknowledgeth, that Chriſtians had neither altars, nor images. And therefore as it is called an altar, ſo ſometime it is alſo called a table. See Auguſt. cont. lit. Petil. l. 2. c. 47. Touching adoration, it was not vſed, till Honorius the third, Anno 1220, fiue yeares after the Councell of Laterans Touching the adminiſtration in one kinde, that was neues vſed,Def. lib. de offic. py viri. till 1000 yeares after Chriſt, as Caſſauder ſheweth, and it was firſt decreed in the Councell of Conſtance, vnderunder Pope Iobu the 23, Anno 1414 Touching the reſeruation of the remainder, there was a long time no ſuch vſe, for they burnt it in the fire,Heſych. lib. 2. in Leuit … 8. as Heſych: teſtifieth; and if ſometime it was reſerued, it was by priuate perſons, who caryed it home with them: but was not ſo generally approued; and after more conſideration in Councells condemned, as in the Councell called Caeſar Auguſtau. Cap. 3.If any bee preued not to hauehave conformed the Euchariſt receiued in the Church, let him be anathema. And in the firſt Tolletan Councell:Cap. 14. If they ſhall remaine …ill the morrow, let them not be any longer reſerued, but by the diligence of the Clerciks conſumed. The name of your Maſſe is very ancient, but then the Maſſe or miſſa was a diſmiſſing of the Catecumeni, when others remained to receiue, and thus it continued to Anno 600, according to I ſidor. lib. 6. Orig. c. 19. The Maſſe therefore in your Church now is new, and ſo are all your vſages of it, and iuſtly by Chriſtians to be exploded.
Serg. Paul.
I thinke this point hath beene ſo ſeanned, that there needs no more to be ſayd, for mine owne part you hour giuen we ſuch light into theſe things, as I neuer had before: for the ancient name of the Maſſe and Sacrifice, and Altar, &c. made ſtill ſome ſcruple in my minde, that tranſubſtantiation was a moſt ancient tenent of the Church. But ſeeing I am now fully ſatisfied, proceed to ſome other point.
Paul.
The next new thing is the Latine tongue, wherein the Maſſe is offered, and prayers are made, and the Scriptures are kept. This was not, but where Latine was vnderſtood till the dayes of Vitalian Pope, An. 666,Oſ…d. Cont. 7. in vvhoſe time Latine was firſt vſed in Conſtantinople: Neither doth your Nauclerus much differ: For hee aſſigneth it to the time of Pope Agatho, Anno 675. In the other Countreys, which vnderſtood Latine, as in France, Britaine, and in Africa, it was vſed more anciently: for the Latine tongue was familiar to them for the ſpace of 700 yeares and vpwards, as appeareth in one paſſage of the third Councell of Tours, Cap. 17.Anno 770, wherein it is appointed, that Homilies ſhould bee turned into a ruſticke Latine tongue, or Theotiske, that they might the better be vnderſtood. So that, if the ſeruice vvas more anciently performed in the Latine tongue, it vvas becauſe they commonly vnderſtood it beſt: but ſince, it not being vnderſtood, it is an abſurd noueltie to vſe it.
Elym.
It is neceſſarie, that ſeeing Chriſts Church is one, the ſeruice ſhould be vniforme; and for the Scriptures great reaſon, to keepe them in an vnknowne tongue, to preuent error.
Paul.
It is neceſſarie indeed, as conducing to eſtabliſh the Latine Monarchy; but it were more neceſſary for edification to hauehave all in a knowne tongue, as anciently it was wont to be, as may be gathered from Chryſoſtom, who ſaith,Hom. 18. in 2. Cor. that common prayers are made both by the Priest, and the people: and Isidor. When Pſalmes are ſung, they ought to be ſung of all: De Ecst. off. ib. 1. cap. 10.when Prayer is made, let it be made by all; and when there is reading, let ſilence be made that all may heare. And for your pretended feare of hereſie, that may be an excuſe: but ſeeing anciently all had the Bible in their owne languages, it cannot but paſſe for a nouclty.
Serg. Paul.
Be there any more points, the antiquitis whereof you can diſprous, as you hauehave done theſe?
Paul.
Yes: the doctrine of Purgatory and praying for the dead, came in alſo long after the Apoſtles. The firſt that make mention of Purgatory, are Tertullian and Origen, whoſe authoritie is not ſo great, becauſe the one was a Montamſt Hereticke; and the other was condemned for many errours. In Auguſtines time, which was 400 yeares after Chriſt it was ſpoken of but doubtfully.Tnchit. c. 67.69. Whether there ſhall bee ſuch a thing or no, it may be enquired, and either be found out, or be kept ſecret from ſome faithfull perſons, In Eſa. l. 28. c. ….ſaith Auguſtine. And Ierome ſaith, that theſe things are to be left to the iudgement and knowledge of God. Grog. in Iob 13. c. 20.And Gregory the firſt, Biſhop of Rome, who was after, Anno 600, ſaith, becauſe we are redcemed, wee hauehave this benefit, that when we are taken away from the habitation of our fleſh, wee are preſently earied to beauenly rewards. Tertul. de Cor. mil.And the ſame Tertullian was the firſt, that ſpake of praying for the dead, who alſo conſeſſeth, that if you require Scripture for it, you ſhall find nonc: but tradition ſhall be pretended as the increaſer; cuſtome the confirmer: and faith the obſeruer of it. Yet it is to bee acknowledged, that euen the moſt approued of the ancient, hauehave prayed for the dead, as Auguſtine for his Mother Monica, and Ambroſe for Theodoſius: but doubtingly becauſe without ground in the Word.
Elymas.
Then I hope you will yeeld this to be more ancient, then your not praying for the dead, and your vtter denying of Purgatory, as an inuention deriued from the H…hen.
Paul.
Their praying for the dead was not the ſame vvith yours: but either for the augmentation of their glory, who were in Heauen, as Ambroſe hauing ſaid, that Theodeſius remained in the light, and gloried in the company of the Saints: yet he prayeth, giuegive perfect reſt to thy ſeruant Theodoſius;Confeſ l. 9. c. 13. or to expreſſe their affection, as Auguſtine, who ſaith of his mother Monica; I beleeus, that thou haſt done what I deſire, but accept of the voluntaries of my mouth. Or if they thought them damned; they prayed for a mitigation of their paines; or holding that they might all bee kept in one common place, till the day of iudgement, as La…tantius ſheweth de diuin. Draem. lib. 7. cap. 21. Iren. lib. 5. Th…y prayed for the haſtening of their Deliuerance. They prayed not for ſoules in Purgatoric; neither did they, which held Purgatory, beleeue, that veniall ſinnes were there done away, and temporall puniſhments ſatisfied for, till after Anno 1000, as your Church now teacheth; and therefore, euen theſe points, as you hold them are new, and vnthought of by antiquity. And ſeeing no ſuch cuſtome is grounded vponupon the Word of God, as Tertullian hath confeſſed, our denying thus to pray is more Apoſtolicall, and ſo more ancient then either yours or theirs.
Serg. Paul.
But thus you will make the Church in the time of theſe holy Fathers to hauehave beene no true Church, and them no true members, whom we all yet hauehave in high eſteeme.
Paul.
It doth not follow, becauſe they erred in one thing in practice, through too much affection, that they were no Church: for it is not any errour, that ouerturncth the Church; but errours razing the foundation, as hath beene before declared.
Elymas.
But theſe holy Fathers vſed the ſame things about the ſeruice of God that wee doe, as holy Water, and Chriſme, both to the ſicke, and to the baptized, and Exorcizing, and Croſſing, and honoured the Saints departed with going to viſit their Reliques, and praying vntounto them, and commended a Monaſticall life, and confeſſion to a Prieſt, and workes of penance, wherein the very life of our Religion conſiſteth. And therefore if we be no true Church, they were no true Church neither.
Paul.
Although there were ſome tincture of theſe ſuperſtitions in the Church in the dayes of the holy Fathers: yet there was great difference betwixt them and you herein. They vſed the Croſſe, not for any confidence they had in it, but as a ſigne of their profeſſion, as a Aruobius teſtifieth, ſaying; We doe neither worſhip, nor wiſh croſſes. And Ambroſe ſpeaking of Helena, who found the Croſſe of Chriſt, faith,Arnob. l. 8. Shee found the title, and worſhipped the King, but not the wood. Ambroſ de Obit. Theo…oſ.For this were a Gentile errour, and a venity of the wicked, They anointed the ſicke at the beginning of their ſickneſſe in the part grieued to eaſe them, as Gregory Turoneuſis ſaith. Hiſt. Franc. l. 6. c. 7. But you to conferre grace at the end of ſickneſſe, when there is no more hope of life. They did not pray to the Saints departed, as able to heare them; but in their ſoliloquies by way of conſabulation through a Proſopopeia. For they held, that the Saints departed could not heare them: witneſſe Saint Auguſtine, who to proue, that they know not what is done, ox ſaid here, bringeth in that place of Eſai. L. de Cura. pr… mont. c. 13.63. Abraham knoweth vsus not: and 2 King. 22. I will gather thee to thy Fathers, that thy eyes may not ſee the ewill to come. And they did commonly hold then, that all the faithfull departed remained in ſome ſecret place out of heauen, where they had not the ſight of God; as Iren. l. 5. Iuſt. Martyr. qu. 60. & 76. Orig. Hom. 7. in Leuit. Chryſ. Hom. 38. in 1 Cor. &c. And for worſhip they gaue them none, neither Doulia, nor Latria. For ſo ſaith the ſame Auguſtine. They are to be honoured for imitation, not bee worſhipped for Religion. Aug. de vera relig. c. 55.And he vſeth the very word, expreſſing Doulia. Wee honour the Saints with charitis, not with ſeruice. Neither did they vſe praying to them in their publique ſeruice. For ſo alſo Saint Auguſtine ſaith.Aug. de Cinit. Dei lib. 22. c. 10. The Martyrs are named at our ſacrifice, as men of God, that hauehave …uercome the world, but they are not called vponupon by the Prieſt that ſacrificeth. But you pray vntounto them in all your Liturgyes, and worſhip them with Doulia. And for all other things by you alledged, though they hauehave been anciently vſed, yet their beginning is not vnknowne vntounto vsus.
Elym.
But you hauehave not yet anſwered my argument, prouing, that our caſe and theirs is all one. For admit, that there were ſome little difference, yet this cannot conclude againſt vsus, as no Church, if they were a true Church, ſeeing wee agree together in one kinde of ſeruice.
Paul.
They agreed not with you in errours againſt the foundation, and therefore were not implicated in the ſame danger, as euen in this about the Saints departed, where the chiefe danger lyeth, viz. in worſhipping them, and truſting to them, as to Mediators, that ſhall preuaile, and that hauehave power to helpe. But you ſhall not thus put me from the firſt thing propounded: viz. to ſhew the beginning of theſe ſuperſtitions. Pope Alexander firſt inſtituted Holy Water, Anno 115. Sabel. Tom. 1. Concil. Pope Hig… Chry…ne in Baptiſme, Anno 141. Euſeb. lib. 4 c. 10. An Exorcift was firſt ordained by Pope Caius, Anno 283. Sabel. The ſigne of the Croſſe was not vſed, but for ſignification 300 yeares; or if for bleſſing, with inuocation vponupon him that was crucified, the truſt not being in it, but in Chriſt crucified. A materiall Croſſe or Crucifixe, was not ſet vp till 400 yeares after Chriſt: neither was it appointed, till Anno 710, when the Trullan Councell ordained,Cap. 82. Policbron l. 5. c. 12. Can. 15. that Chriſt ſhould bee pictured hanging vponupon the Croſſe. The firſt Croſſe erected in England, was Anno 635, in the time of King Oſwald. In the fift Carth. Councell, Anno 409. the worſhipping of Saints Reliques, is declared to be heatheniſh: and ſupplication vvas made to the Emperour, that Reliques ſhould be aboliſhed, In a Councell at Laodu…ea, Anno 368, the worſhipping of Angels is condemned, as horrible idolatry. Petrus Gnapheus is no…ed to bee the firſt, that brought inuocation vponupon the Saints into the publique ſeruice, Anno 500:Niceph. l. 15 c. 28. and at eueryevery turne the mention of the Mother of our Lord. And about Anno 600, Pope Gregory the firſt appointed your Liturgy with prayers to all the Saints, as now it is. Anthony was the firſt that renouncing the world, led a ſolitary life in the Wilderneſſe, becauſe of the hot perſecutions of the Church, Anno 300. For ſo Friſing ſaith;Lib. 4. cap. 5. There were in theſe dayes famous Princes of Cbriſts Kingdome, Paul and Antony the firſt Eremites. And Baſilius firſt built Monaſteries:Baſil. Epiſ…. 63. for hee ſaith that the Neoceſareaus obiected vntounto him the newneſſe of a Monaſticall life. Euſtatius an Hereticke extolled a Monaſticall life, and condemned mariage, holding it neceſſary to ſaluation, to forſake all and to turne Monke. Againſt him a Councell was aſſembled at Gangra, Anno 324, and his opinions were condemned, where they profeſſed, that they honoured true Virginity, and withall the chaſte bond of mariage, &c. Auticular confeſſion to a Prieſt began not, till An. 800. It was firſt appointed in Concil. Cabiloneuſi 2. c. 32. and coneil. Mogunt. in the time of Gregory 4. c. 26. Before if it were vſed, yet it was not inioyned, yea, warning was giuen againſt it.Chryſ. hom. 4. de Laz. Chryſoſtome ſaith; Take heed that thou tell not thy ſinnes to man, leſt bee vpbraid thee; but ſhew thy wounds to the Lord, Scal paradiſi Grad.that hath a care of thee, that is gentle, that is the Phyſitian. And Iohannes Climacus, An. 580. Before all things, let vsus confeſſe our ſinnes onelyonly to the Lord our iudge, and bee ready at his command to confeſſe them to all men. And with confeſſion began workes of penance. For before, Chryſoſtome ſpeaking, how a man might attaine peace with God, ſaith, Hee hath not commanded thee to paſſe ouer the Mountaines, Chryſ. in Math. Hom. 55.to ſayle ouer the Seas, to digge ſo much ground, to remaine faſting, or to put on ſackcloth; but to giuegive of that which thou haſt vntounto the poore.
Serg. Paul.
But ſeeing you acknowledge moſt of theſe things to be very ancient, and the Fathers which ſubſcribed vntounto them with the Church in their dayes, to be the true Church of God: Why hauehave you vtterly aboliſhed all theſe things? Had it not been better to hauehave reſtored them onelyonly to that ſtate wherein they were in the time of the Fathers, cutting off the acceſſions that hauehave ſince been made?
Paul.
No, by no meanes, for it would not hauehave beene ſo ſafe to hold theſe cuſtomes after their manner, ſeeing they hauehave ſince proued rootes of moſt peſtilent weeds, leſt in time, there ſhould bee danger of the ſame euils comming on againe. Euen as it is no wiſedome in taking away B…yars and Thornes off a ground, to preſerue the rootes ſtill. For from their praying for the dead to expreſſe their affection, if happily they might increaſe their ioyes, or mitigate their paines, ſprung an opinion of a third place, wherein the ſoules of the faithfull are tormented, but may bee holpen out by praying for them. From vſing a croſſe in the aire for commemoration of their Chriſtian profeſſion, ſprung confidence, and adoration of the Croſſe. From mentioning the Saints departed ouer their altars, praiſing God for them, ſprung praying vntounto them. From annoiling to heale ſickneſſe of the body, ſprung annoiling to conferre grace to the ſoule. From a Monaſticall life taken vp for neceſſity, ſprung vp an opinion of the neceſſity of a Monkiſh life in all, that would be perfect, and of the merit hereof.
Serg. Paul.
You hauehave not yet ſhewed the firſt broaching of that doctrine touching freewill, inſtification by workes in part, vncertainty of faith, of perfection, the merit of workes, and of workes of ſupererrogation: nor of Chriſts ſatisfaction onelyonly for eternall puniſhments, which you ſhewed did chiefely pull downe the foundation. I pray you therefore now ſhew the beginning of theſe points alſo.
Paul.
This whole brood was hatched almoſt at one time, viz. of the Schoolemen about Anno 1200, or of the Councell of Trent, Anno 1500. That man hath freewill to deſire to trune vntounto God, as one wounded and halfe dead hath to be ſuccoured, was vtterly reiected by the Fathers, eſpecially after that occaſion was giuen by Pelagius an Hercticke, to looke more narrowly into the truth hereabout. Before, they ſpeake ſomewhat vncertainly;De Sp. & lib. c. 3. de dogmat. Eccleſiae c. 27. Cont. Epiſt. 2. Pelag. l. 3 c. 8. but then Auguſtine ſaith; Freewill anatleth to nothing but to ſinne. And againe, A holy thought, a good purpoſe, a godly counſell, and eueryevery motion of a good wil is from God. And againe, freewill anaileth to nothing but to ſinne. And with him conſenteth Ierome againſt Pelagius: and Proſper, and Chryſoſtome who ſaith, that wicked men are altogether dead. Yea, to the dayes of Bernard the ſame was held. For he ſaith, We hauehave power to will, Barn. de gra & lib. arbuitrio.but neither good nor euill: to will good is a profect, to will euill is a defect. O—r freewill maketh vsus willing, but grace well willing. And nothing is more frequent amongſt the Fathers, then to teach, that whatſoeuer proccedeth from a naturall man is ſinne.Ieron. in Gal c. 3. Heare Ierome for all, who ſaith, without Chriſt all vertue is vice. This point then is not yet foure hundred yeares old.
Elymas.
Nothing was more frequent in the mouths of the Fathers before Pelagius, then freewill.Apol. 1. Lib 4 c. 71. Iuſtin Martyr ſaith, that there were nothing in men worthy of praiſe, if they had not equall power to turne themſelues either way. Ireneus ſaith; Man hath power to chooſe, euen as the Augels. Wherefore their impugning of freewill afterwards was to bee imputed to the heat of their oppoſition made to Pelagius, who taug… that men had power to turne to God, and to keepe his …mmandements out of the libertie of their freewill.
Paul.
That which you alleage touching their oppugning Pelagius, may much more truely bee applyed about their ſayings, wherein they ſeeme to be for the freedome of mans will: for they had to doe with the Marcionitel, and Mannichces, who held a neceſſity of all things wherby men were caried either to good or euill; and hence it came to paſſe, that they vttered ſuch ſayings as theſe: but when they ſaw the danger of the Hereſie touching free will enſuing, they laboured by ſpeaking againſt it to quite themſelues from the leaſt aſperſion this way.
Serg. Paul.
And truely this is moſt likely: for the proper time for a man to expreſſe what he holdeth, is then, when diſputation is moued about it, whereas be ſpeaketh not ſo warily at other times, when be feareth not that any hold will bee taken vponupon his ſayings againſt the truth. And I am the rather perſwaded, that they were againſt all liberty of the will vntounto good, becauſe they ſo conſentingly taught, that eueryevery thing proceeding from a naturall man before his conuerſion is ſinne.
Paul.
Touching iuſtification by workes, or by inherent righteouſneſſe, and not onelyonly by the righteouſneſſe. of Chriſt imputed by faith, none euer taught it, till An. 1500. For Chriſts righteouſneſſe onelyonly hath euer heene reſted vponupon by the Fathers:Ieron in 2 Cor. 5. in … Cor. 1. Ierome ſaith, Chriſt hath ſo receued the name of ſinne, as we are made the righteouſneſſe of God in him, not ours, nor in vsus. Ambroſe ſayth, This is appointed of God, that he which beloeueth in Chriſt ſhould be ſaued without workes, hauing his ſinnes freely forgiuen through faith onelyonly. And Chryſoſtome ſayth,In Rom. 3. Hom 7. Epiſt. 190. So ſoone as a man beleeueth, he is iuſtified. Bernard ſaith, Another mans righteouſneſſe is aſſigned vntounto man, becauſe he wanted his owne, the ſatisfaction of one is imputed to vsus all.
Elym.
But there is a double iuſtification: the firſt, which is onelyonly by faith, and hereby a man paſſeth from the ſtate of ſin into the eſtate of grace: and the ſecond, which is by inmherent righteouſneſſe, whereby a man of iuſt becommeth more iuſt and worthy of heauen. And of the firſt of theſe onelyonly the Fathers ſpake, not of the other.
Paul.
They could not well ſpeake of that, ſeeing it was vnknowne in their dayes, and long ſince inuented. And touching the merit of the beſt mans righteouſneſſe. Bernard doth vtterly deny it, ſaying, The merits of men are not ſuch, Bernard Ser. 1. de An…n.as that for them eternall life ſhould be due of right; or ſo as that God ſhould be vniuſt, if he did not therefore beſtow eternall life: for to ſay nothing, that allour merits are Gods gifts, and ſo man is for them a debter vntounto God, not God vntounto man; what are all merits to ſo great glory? Wherefore if meriting bee ſpoken of by the Fathers, they meant nothing elſe but to preuaile or obtaine, or elſe they called good works merits, to ſet forth their dignity in reſpect of the diuine acceptance, that men might be incouraged hereunto.
Elym.
You doe altogether peruert their meaning: for they taught good workes in the regenerate to be properly meritorious, ſeeing perfect righteouſnes according to the law is worthy of heauen, and ſuch righteouſneſſe they taught, that men through the grace of God inabling them, did attaine vntounto in this life, yea and that they could doe and did more then the law required, and ſo merited for others alſo.
Paul.
You doe moſt impudently wrong the Fathers: for none till aboue 1000 yeares after Chriſt, taught perfection of degrees in this life, but onelyonly perfection through Chriſt, and a comparatiue perfection, ſome exceeding others; but altogether againſt it. Saint. Angustine ſaith, Charity, Epiſt. 29. ad Hieron.that cannot be increaſed is in no man bere, and that which may bee increaſed is in fault, becauſe it is leſſe, then it ought to be, by reaſon of which fault there is no man iuſt and ſinneth not, by reaſon of which fault no liuing man ſhall bee iuſtified in the ſight of God. And Ierome ſaith, to affirme that any man liueth ſo, as that he is without ſinne, is to take man out of man, and to affirme that a man in the body is without the body, Ierom contra Pelag. Epiſt.and rather to wiſh then to teach. And if they held, that no man can perfectly keepe the Law, then it is certaine, that they taught not, that men could both doe all that the Law requireth, and more alſo. If then they hauehave ſpoken any thing, wherein they may ſeeme to be for ſupererogation, it is to be vnderſtood either of outward things, or of ſome ſpeciall commendable thing, which is not commonly commanded to all, but commended to ſome. And ſo their doing more then is required was onelyonly with reference vntounto others; who did not likewiſe as not hauing that particular gift,Hom. 3. in 1. Cor. or in exterials, wherein Chryſoſtom ſaith, euen the Philoſophers exceeded the Commandement of God.
Serg. Paul.
I like this your interpretation of the Fathers very well, and am hereby perſwaded, that both perfect keeping of the Law and workes of ſupererrogation are nouelties. Proced therefore to vncertainty of faith.
Paul.
This vncertainty was not determined, not certainty of faith condemned, before the Councell of Trent Anno 1500. The Fathers are moſt plaine for aſſurance by faith.Aug. Tract 75. in Johan. Auguſt: ſaith, Chriſt is now in vsus, and we in him, but we beleeue this now, then wee ſhall know it, although we know it now alſo through beleeuing, but then we ſhall know it by bebolding it. Regiſt. lib. 6.187.Gregory ſaith; The ſoule that thirſteth after God is firſt pricked with feare, then with louelove, but when ſeare hath beene conſumed with long anxiety of ſorrow, a certaine ſecurity of preſumption of pardon doth ariſe. Hom. 14. in Rom. 8.And Chryſoſtome ſayth: The ſupreme Eſſence, which doth alſo beſtow what it promiſeth, teſtifying vntounto vsus, who can any more doubt of this dignity hereafter? And Bernard exhorteth to beleeue without doubting,Bern in Cant. Serm. 8. Whatſoeuer ſoule of you feeleth at any time in the ſecret of his conſcience the Spirit of the Sonne crying Abba Father, let it preſume that it is beloued with afatherly affection, and beleeue, doubting nothing.
Elym.
They meant nothing elſe, but certainty on Gods part, but becauſe man is mutable, and all promiſer runne vponupon condition of his perſeuerance, they hauehave plainely taught elſewhere, that none can be certaine by faith. Heare Auguſt. for all, who ſayth. Who of all the multitude of beleeuers can preſume that he is in the number of beleeuers as long as he is in this mortality.
Paul.
They ſpake in this manner to preuent carnall ſecurity, which followeth vponupon preſumption, but they neuer impugned, but incouraged to aſſurance by faith.
Serg. Paul.
There remaineth now onelyonly one point, wherein I deſire to heare you speake, viz. that of ſatis faction.
Paul.
And this is none of their leaſt errors, that Chriſt ſatisfied onelyonly for eternall puniſhments, but for temporall due vntounto vsus for ſinne we our ſelues are to ſatisfie: for as it is a plaine derogation frō the dignity of his paſſions. Touching this therefore I ſay, as of the former points it was not taught anciently, but the plaine contary: Tertullian ſaith,Tertul. de Baptiſ. Guiltineſſe being taken away, the puniſhment is alſo taken away; and that he may not ſeeme to ſpeake of eternall puniſhments onelyonly, hee nameth death, according as it was threatned,Gen. 2.17. In the day that thou cateſt of it, thou ſhalt dye the death, which death here comprehendeth all puniſhments. And Saint Auguſtine ſayth,E…cbit. c. 70. Chriſt by taking vponupon him the puniſhment, and not the fault, hath done away both fault and puniſhment: Aug. de verb. Dom. Scr. 37.and elſewhere more expreſly; Chriſt had two good things, righteouſneſſe, and immortality, wee two euill things, ſinne and wortality, the one hee tooke vponupon him, the other he did not, and by taking vponupon him the one, he freed vsus from both. As for ſatisfaction required of vsus, it is not, as he ſheweth, for puniſhment, but to ſhew our repentance by our outward actions. So that according to Auguſt. wee are deliuered from mortality as a puniſhment, and not only from hell fire.
Elym.
Howſoeuer you ſeeme to make theſe learned Fathers to ſpeake, it is plaine, that they meant onelyonly eternall puniſhments, borne by Chriſt for vsus. And therefore they doe vſually ſpeake of works of penance and almes, as hauing force to purge and waſh away ſinne. Chryſoſtome ſayth,Hom. 1. in Gen. The common Lord of vsus all, deſirous to hauehave all our ſinnes waſhed away, hath inuented this cure, which is made by faſting. Lib. de promiſ & prad. part. 2. c. 2. Hom. 1.And Proſper ſaith, Almes cleanſe the whole man. And Ceſarius ſayth, that a man who by ſinning hath loſt himſelfe, doth agains redeeme himſelfe by his ſatisfaction.
Paul.
Where is there a word in all theſe touching ſatisfaction for temporall puniſhments? It may rather bee inferred, if theſe ſpeeches be ſtrictly taken, that wee are able to doe ſomething to deliuer our ſelues from ſinne, both in reſpect of guilt and puniſhment temporall & eternall. Wherefore it muſt needs bee yeelded, that theſe things were ſpoken improperly, that being aſcribed to the inſtrument or meanes, which is proper vntounto Chriſt. Satisfaction therefore, as it is now taught in your Church, is rather to bee referred to the Lateran Councell, Anno 1215, wherein the ſacrament of penance was eſtabliſhed, an appendix whereof is ſatisfaction.
Elym.
Becauſe you hauehave ſpoken of the ſacrament of penance firſt appointed in the Lateran Councell, I will lay hold vponupon the occaſion to put you to proue the nouelty of the ſeuen ſacraments: for if ſeuen hauehave beene anciently acknowledged, this is not ſo new, as you would make the world beleeue.
Paul.
I am very willing to follow you herein, and let the iſſue reſt vponupon my prouing your ſeuen Sacraments to be nouelties. I ſay then, that this number was not knowne, nor acknowledged by antiquity, but was firſt taught by Peter Lombard and the Schoole-men following him, aboue 1000 yeares after Chriſt.Epiſt. 118. Saint Auguſtine ſayth, the Sacraments of the New Teſtament are moſt few in number. Iſidorus An. 600 ſayth,Lib. 6 Originum c. 19. Paſc. de Caena. The Sacraments are Baptiſme and Chriſme, and the body and blood of Chriſt. And Paſcaſius Anno 900; ſayth likewiſe.
Elym.
They ſay, theſe two are the chiefe indeed, but they exclude not the reſt. Hugo de Sancto Ʋictore teacheth ſeuen ſacraments, and of them he ſaith ſome are the principall, wherein ſaluation ſtandeth,Lib. de ſacram. 7. part. 9. c. 6. viz. Baptiſme and the Supper of the Lord; the reſt though they bee not ſo neceſſary, yet they profit vntounto ſanctification. And I could eaſily ſhew, that the ancienteſt Fathers hauehave called eueryevery of theſe Sacraments.
Paul.
I grant you without ſhewing, that they called them ſacraments, and ſo they called any holy ſigne, according to Auguſtines definition;Auguſt. Epiſt. 5. EueryEvery holy ſigue is a Sacrament. But that there are any more, then two, properly ſo called, they neuer taught, and euen your Hugo, who acknowledgeth 7, can be no ground for your 7, for he reckoneth not penance for one, but the water of aſperſion. And the very Schoolemen deny the reſt to be ſacraments,Lib. 4.26. properly ſo called. P. Lombard denyeth Matrimony to be a Sacrament properly and vniuocally with the other ſacraments, and Durand likewiſe vponupon that place.Lib. 4. diſt. 24. The ſame Lombard denyeth ordination to bee properly a ſacrament, and Alexander de Hales, and Thomas Aquinas vponupon that place, &c.
Serg. Paul.
This your diſpute about the Sacraments hath brought to my mind another point yet …toucht about the holy Scriptures and Traditions. Can you ſhew, that it is a noueliy is hold, that together with the Canonical Scriptures, Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued, and vnwritten traditions, as a rule of our ſaith, or hath it euer beene held thus?
Paul.
It is a nouelty to hold, that the Scriptures doe not containe in them all things neceſſary to ſaluation, and that Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued as Canonicall, and that traditious are neceſſary to ſaluation. For the Fathers ſought to hold all men onelyonly to the Scriptures:Hom. 1. in Pſal. 95. Chryſoſtome ſaith, If any thing bee ſpoken without Scripture, the thought of the bearers limpeth, ſometimes yeelding, and ſometime doubting. And againe, If ye hears any ſaying, I hauehave the holy Spirit, Serm. de S. Sp.but not ſpeaking out of the Goſpell, bee ſpeaketh of himſelfe, and the holy Spirit is not in him. So Baſil, reg. Mor. 8. & 28. Epiſt. 80. And touching Apocryphall books, Cyril. Hieruſalym, ſayth; Haus nothing to doe with Apocryphall bookes. Catee. 4.but read the canonicall which are conſidently read in the Church. The Apoſtles and firſt Biſhops were much wiſer and more religious then thou, who deliuered the ſcriptures vntounto vsus. Doe not thou therefore, ſeeing thou art a child of the Church, ges beyond their bounds. Athen in Synop.Athanaſius ſayth, There are 22 bookes of the old Teſtament Canonicall, but there are other bookes which are not Canonicall, which are onelyonly read of the Catecumeni, as the booke of Wiſdome, Eccleſiaſticus, &c. Ierom calleth the Hiſtory of Suſamus, Prafat. in Den.of Bel and the Dragon fables, and ſaith the ſame was the opinion of Euſebius, Apollinarius, Methodius, &c. Baruch was not receiued as Canonicall till the Councell of Florence, Anno 1439. And touching vnwritten traditions, they receiued none of old, but either ſuch as were conſonant to the holy Scriptures, which were written in ſenſe, though not in word, according to Auguſtine, of which was the baptiſme of Infants and not to rebaptize:De Gen, ad lit. lib. 10 c. 23. Tertul de Coron. c. 23. or cuſtomes in indifferent things according to Tertullian, who ſaith, Doſt thou not thinke, that it is lawfull for eueryevery faithfull Church to conceiue and conſtituent that which agreeth to God, … to diſeiplione, and profireth … ſolnation? And theſe by the preſtice of your owne Church may be left off again. For the thrice dipping in Baptiſin, ſtanding in time of prayer vponupon the Lords day, taſting of milke and honcy in Baptiſme, &c. anciently receiued, are now abrogated, and not held to bind.
Elym.
I could reioyne with you about this argument, and bring many paſſages of the Fathers ſhewing their high eſteeme of traditions: but leſt theſe diſputes ſhould proue tedious to this noble perſon, and that he may not, being faſcinated with that which you hauehave ſaid, incline to your colourable Hereſies, I ſay that all, which you hauehave produced to diſgrace the Catholike Religion as nouell, are nothing but cauils. For if our Religion be new, and ſo faire degenerated, as that the foundation is hereby ouerthrowne, there was no Religion, and ſo no true Church of God in the world for many hundred yeares, ſeeing by your owne confeſſion, the Church which was aboue 1000 or 1300 yeares agoe, had many cuſtomes, and held many things which you doe not at this day. And with what face then can you alledge them, as being on your ſide ſo commonly as you doe, as though your Church were all one with theirs, when as it is plaine to any that will vnderſtand, that they are our Fathers, and not yours; and ſuch as ſuffered death, our Martyrs, ſealing vp with their blood the Romane Cathohke Religion, and not your new deuiſed way of ſeruing God without croſſing, Chryſme, Holy water, Prayers for the dead, deuotion to the Saints, &c. and full of carnall liberty, in all things pleaſing to the fleſh, as mariages of Prieſts, and worldly liuing of all, without any renouncing of ſecular affaires for the ſeruice of God, and repenting only with a little griefe, no workes of penance being after required, with many other points of licentiouſneſſe. If any held with this Religion in all theſe points, tell who they were, when and where they liued, if you can, till within theſe hundred yeares, and that is as late as the neweſt of our points, to grant you your owne ſaying.
Paul.
Neuer were any ſo iuſtly to bee taxed for cauilling, as you: for what can it elſe bee, when all your points, in that manner you hold them, hauehave beene plainly ſhewed to bee new, to fly to this generall reaſon for euaſion? The Church in the time of theſe ancients, was the ſame with ours in all matters of faith, as I hauehave fully declared, neither can a few ceremonies ſince, more corrupted, and therefore by vsus aboliſhed, eſtrange our Church from theirs, no more then the breaking downe of the braſen Serpent, and ſeruing God without it in Hezekiahs dayes, eſtranged the Church then from the Church in the time of Moſes. As for the holy Martyrs, it is a moſt vaine bragge that they ſealed your Religion with their blood, which was not then in queſtion. It was rather our Religion, that they ſealed, ſeeing they commonly ſuffered for ſuch zeale to Chriſt, as that together with him they would not worſhip Idols, as we alſo refuſe to doe. For holding the ſame points with vsus in eueryevery particular, it is not neceſſary to ſhew any that did, it is ſufficient to proue our Religion true, and Apoſtolicall, to hauehave ſhewed the riſing vp of all thoſe rites, that we ahue done away, to hauehave beene long after the Apoſtles dayes. And for carnall liberty, whereby you ſeeke to diſgrace the truth, herein you blaſpheme the very liberty of the Goſpell, after the manner of the malicious Phariſees, who cryed out vponupon Chriſt; Behold a glution, and drinker of wine, a friend of Publicans and ſinners. When hee did no more then hee might in taking liberty herein. For euen ſo wee maintaine liberty of mariage to all men, and reiect your ſuperſtitious auſterities; becauſe mariage is honourable amongſt all men, and wee would not through a multitude of obſeruances make Chriſts eaſie yoake and light burden, heauy,Heb. 13.4. like to that vnderunder the Law, of which Saint Peter complaineth that it was ſuch, that neither we, nor our Fathers were able to beare. Act. 15.10.And if experience may be heard, this your taking vponupon you to be ſtricter then God, ſhall bee abundantly conuinced to opon a farre wider gap to licentiouſneſſe, ſeeing all he world ringeth of the carnality, vncleanneſſe, and diſſoluteneſſe of your very votaries and Prieſts, and of Rome it ſelfe aboue all. And it is obſerued, that your very Confeſſions and appointments of penance is turned into a fountaine of liberty, ſeeing more rioes and diſorders are againſt the time of ſhrift in Italy comitted, then all the yeare before.
Serg. Paul.
But can you not ſhow any that were of your reformed Religion for ſubſtance and matter of faith from the time of the ancient Fathers, till Luther. That was a very long diſtance of time of about 1000 yeares. Doe you hold that God was without a true viſible Church all this time?
Paul.
God was neuer without a true Church, neither was ſhe hid long at any time: For till the Pope was made an Idoll, and idolatry with Images, and with the Maſſe tooke place in the Church, and the Virgin Mary was made ioynt mediator with Chriſt, it was a true Church, which was till about Anno 700. And when the Latine Church was by theſe abhominations corrupted, the Greek Church ſtill continued more ſound: for they withſtood the Popes ſupremacy, oppoſed images, held no tranſubſtantiation; neither ſubſcribed to the points maintained by the Romaniſts, till the Councell of Florence, Anno 1439, at what time I hauehave alſo ſhewed, how much this ſubſcription was miſ-liked by the body of that Church. So that if no where elſe, yet in Grecia the true Church was to be found, till then. But there wanted not oppugners of Images, and of the Popes ſupremacy in other places at the ſame times. The Councell of Franckford was famous for determining againſt Images, as I hauehave alſo declared. Betweene 700 and Anno 800 Albertus Gallus a French Biſhop oppoſed himſelfe againſt the Pope in his Legate Boniface, Hiſt. Magd. Cent. 8. c. 10.and with him one Clemens a presbyter, and Saemſon, who were therefore excommunicated by the Pope, and impriſoned. And about the ſame time Iohan Mailroſius and Claudius Clemens ſent from Scotland, & firſt Profeſſors of learning in the Vniuerſity of Paris, denyed to ſubſcribe to the Romiſh ſuperſtitions. Betweene 800 and 900 Claudius Taurinenſis Biſhop of Thurin in Piemont, denyed the Pope, to bee an Apoſtolike Biſhop, for he is not, ſayd he, an Apoſtolike Biſhop, that ſitteth in the Apoſtolike chaire, but that fulfilleth an Apoſtolike office.Whights way to the Church. p. 386. He caſt images out of the Church, and impugned the worſhipping of the croſſe. About that time were Ioh. Scotus alſo and Bertram that denyed the reall preſence, Anno 847.
Thergandus Biſhop of Treniris inueighed againſt Pope Nicolas, calling him Antichriſt,Auentin: Reginold. lib. 2. for which he was excommunicated, and afterwards ſtaine. Betweene An. 900 and …000, Otho impugned the ſupremacy,Uhite ibid. and Arnulphus called the Pope Antichriſt. Betweene An. 1000 and 1100, Berengarius impugned the reall preſence, of whom I hauehave already ſpoken. About that time Leaskerius an Archbiſhop in France was of the ſame opinion. Berweene An. 1100, and 1200. A certaine Biſhop of Florence preached,Hiſt. Magd. Cent. 12. that Antichriſt vvas come, in the time of Paſcalis the ſecond. Alſo one Francis an Abbor, and Petrus do Beuis a Prieſt, impugned the reall preſence, with many other Popiſh points: and Bernard is famous for many points againſt Popery. Betweene Anno 1200,Hiſt Magd. Cent. 13. c. 2. and 1300, Gulielm. de Sancto amers, was baniſhed for an heretike and had his bookes burnt; and Robert Groſted Biſhop of Lincolne, greatly oppoſed the Pope. Between An. 1300 and 1400, was Iohn Wickliffe profeſſor of diuinitie in Oxford, who oppoſed the Pope in ſundry points.Hiſt. Magd. Cent. 14. And out of Greece came diuers by reaſon of the Turkiſh tyranny, amongſt whom Marſilius Patauinus was of moſt note: he, maintained that the Pope had no power ouer other Biſhops, much leſſe ouer Kings. Armachanus an Archb. in Ireland, and Iohannes de Rupeſeiſſa were of the ſame opinion alſo. And after this Iohn Huſſe, and Ierome of Prague, with almoſt all the country of Bohemia, were famous for ſtanding for the truth.
Serg. Paul.
But theſe were but a few in an age, neither could they make a Church: how hapned it, that there were no more till. Wickliffes time?
Paul.
Where Biſhops and learned teachers hauehave been ſtirred vp to ſtand for the truth, there is no doubt, but as lights of the world they did inlighten many more, though they be to vsus vnknowne. Neither was the myſterie of iniquity growne to that height till about Wickliffes time, and the dayes of the ſucceeding Worthies, ſo that the Romane religion was not altogether ſo dangerous: but now they being almoſt quite gone from Chriſt, their ſuperſtitious deuotion increaſing towards the Virgin Mary, and the reſt of the Saints, ſatisfying for a mans owne ſins in part, being taught, and the merit of workes, and freedome of will ſet vp, and the aſſurance of faith condemned, and ſuch horrible idolatry with the Maſſe more then euer committed, they which had the Spirit of God in any meaſure within them could no longer forbeare, but in great companies vtterly ſeparate from the Church of Rome, leſt whilſt they would bee worſhippers of Chriſt, they ſhould become limmes of Antichriſt, to the deſtruction of their ſoules.
Elymas.
Nay rather are ye now become limmes of Antichriſt, by following Martin Luther a Monke, that brake his Vow, and maried a Nunne, & was of a notorious wicked life, and had conſultation with the Deuill, and ſo went to the Deuill at the laſt: and by following King Henry 8, a man ſo ſenſuall and tyranicall; for theſe and ſuch like were your leaders to this Schiſme, and not any good Spirit, as yee pretend.
Paul.
In ſeeking to wound the truth through the ſides of theſe men, you doe but according to your accuſtomed manner, it being one of the Pillars of your Religion, to lay ſlanderous imputations vponupon your Aduerſaries, as a late Writer of ours hath notably ſhewed.Willet Tetraſtul. Papiſmi. But as for Martin Luther, it is well knowne, that he was a man of great zeale for the truth, and ſucceeded accordingly; your Pope and all your power not being able to lay violent hands vponupon him, but that hee was preſerued to dye in peace. If there were any thing taxable in him, in what holy man hath there not beene likewiſe it is no preiudice to the truth, which hee ſtood for: no more, then Saint Pauls forepaſſed perſecuting and blaſpheming was to the Goſpel. And for King Henry 8, God can vſe any inſtrument to beat down the pride of ſuch an enemy as the Pope, as be vſed Nebuchadnezzar to chaſtice idolatrous Iudah, and the Syrian Preſidents, and Romane Emperours, to deſtroy Chriſts enemies, and to abrogate the legall ſeruice by burning vp the Temple, and yet this made nothing the more for the credit of the Iewes Religion, or diſcredit of the Chriſtian thus aduanced. But becauſe you hauehave giuen mee ſo iuſt occaſion, I ſay that if the wickedneſſe and miſcrable ends of chiefe erectors of any Religion, be an argument of a bad religion, as vndoubtedly it is, the Religion of the Church of Rome is abundantly conuinced to bee ſuch; ſeeing ſo many Poper hauehave beene ſo notoriouſly wicked, and periſhed ſo miſerably, and ſuch apparant iudgements hauehave beene executed vponupon others, that hath holpen to aduance it. Gregory the third, who drew vp the Popedome to ſuch a high pin, was a moſt wicked man: for when Phocas, who had murthered Mauricius, Platina.and was therefore greatly taxed by the Patriarke of Conſtantinople, for which hee was much offended with him, hee ſent his image to Rome, and Gregory receiued it honourably, and flattereth with this parricide, but inioyed not long the honour of vniuerſall Biſhop thus attained, for he dyed within nine moneths after. And Phocas the founder of the primacy proued ſoone after a ſlothfull beaſt,Pompon. Latus Paul. Diacon. cruelly murthering many of the Nobles, rauiſhing many Matrons and Virgins, wallowing in dayly drunkenneſſe, and acocrdingly was rewarded. For hee was taken by Priſcus, and Heracleon, and his hands being faſt cut off, then his priuy member, he was beheaded, and his body burnt in a brazen Bull,R. Barus ſupplem. Chron. Nancl. and all his poſterity deſtroyed with him. Silueſter the ſecond was a Coniurer, and was ſlaine by the Deuil,Iob. Marius. when he was ſaying Maſſe in the Chappell of the Croſſe of Ieruſalem. Iohn the 13 committed Inceſt with two of his Sifters, and was ſlaine at the laſt in the act of Adultery. Gregory the ſeuenth put out the eyes of Iohn the 15, and killed him with famine in the Caſtle of Saint Angelo, that he might reigne in his ſtead; and hauing laboured mightily to aduance the papall Sea, he was ſhortly cut off by a ſudden death, and his body was drawne by the feet through the ſtreets,Faſcic. Temp. Otho 1. and pierced with ſpeares by the Romanes. Whereupon the Hiſtory called Foſciculus tempor…, noreth, that the Biſhops of Rome were now adayes ſlaine, as in the Primitiue Church, but were not made Martyrs as they, there was the like death, but not the like cauſe: thy ſuffered, as wailde lambes following the Lambr Chriſt, Plat. vit. pontif.theſe as ran…ing Wolues an empting a new Empire. Gregory the ninth dyed in deſpaiſe. Boniface the eighth dyed of madneſſe. Paul the ſecond, hauing yoted as much as euer did Heſiegabalus dyed of an Apoplexy. Alexander the ſixt committed Inceſt with his owne daughter, whom alſo he maried to his ſonue,Paſquil. Natal. comes Hiſt. l. 4. and was at the laſt poyſoned by him. Pius the fourth dyed in the very boſome of his Concubine. Paul the third, when he had waxed old in a filthy courſe of life, dyed, crying out, my ſinne is alwayes againſt mee. And what ſhould I reckon vp more: whoſo deſireth to read further of them, let him looke into Pelanus Dan. part 2. p. 467: and Parker of the Groſſe, who ſheweth what whores, and Ganimedes by name, ſeuerall Popes hauehave had. Sergius had Marozia. Gregory the ſeuenth, Matildis. Alexander the ſixt, Lucretia: all their daughters or Siſters. Sextus the fourth had for his Ganimede Riarius. Iulius the ſecond, Germanus. Leo the tenth, Hypolitus. Iulius the third, Innocentius, &c. And Napier, who in his expoſition vponupon the Rouelation reckoneth vp the number of moſt notorious wicked Popes.Napier Reuel. p. 138. There hauehave beene thirteene adulterers: Three common Stewes-haunters: foure inceſtuous perſons: eleuen Sodomiticall perſons: ſeuen erectors of Stewes, and two and twenty Necromancers. And Henricus Echartus, who in his booke called Papa Phariſaizans reckoneth vp the vileſt hereſies, wherwith Popes hauehave been tainted. Some Sadduces, ſome Montaniſts, Arrians, Neſtorians, Eutychians, and Epicures, and patrons of wickedneſſe. Innocent 4, defended for gold any luxury in the Clergie. Sixtus 4 gaue liberty of Sodometry to the Cardinals. Alexander 4 ſent into England for money, abſolution to all periured and wicked perſons.
Serg Paul.
Are theſe things true? is it poſſible, that ſo many monſters ſhould ſit in the Apoſtolike chaire? yet it is true, the office doth not priuiledge from ſinne, alſe Iudas being an Apoſtle ſhould not hauehave been a Deuill, As Iudas therefore was no preiudice to the Apoſtolicall office, no more it may bee are ſome wicked Popes to the religion by them maintained. Elſe by the like reaſon the wickedneſſe of ſome of your Biſhops & Miniſters would be an argument againſt your religion.
Paul.
For the truth of theſe things I hauehave alledged my authors; who in theſe ſifting times would not hauehave written thus, if they could hauehave been diſproued, And howſoeuer the wickedneſſe of ordinary perſons of the Clergy or Laity cannot miniſter an argument againſt their religion; yet when one, that is aboue all, & as an Oracle, giueth Edicts to all, and guideth the ſhip as he pleaſeth, is noto…iouſly wicked: there needs no greater argument of a wicked religion. Becauſe the religion profeſſed by vsus is not founded vponupon the Biſhop or Miniſter, but vponupon Gods Word; but the religion of the Church of Rome is founded vponupon the Pope, ſeeing it is their common Plea, that their Church is founded vponupon S. Peter, and his ſucceſſors. Such then as the Pope is, ſuch muſt the religion built vponupon him needs bee; for ſo much as the building alwayes ſtandeth and falleth with the foundation. It is a ſilly ſhift to ſay, he may erre, as he is a man in manners, but not as Pope in doctrine. For what ground can there be, that the holy Ghoſt will dwell to direct in the truth vponupon all occaſions, in a naſty ſty of vncleane ſpirits? For how is the holy Spirit, if not by abominable ſinnes, quenched and chaced away? It is a priuiledge of ſuch as feare God,Pſal. 25.12. to be directed in the right; and not of Balaam, or Caiaphas, though they might ex…raordinarily propheſie as Balaams Aſſe ſpake.
Elywas.
You muſt not thinke yet to beare vsus down thus, as Antichriſtian and abominable in our religion: no, no, although all were, as you hauehave ſaid, yet wee want not the ſtrongeſt argument of all, which muſt ſtop all mouths, the very finger of God, which hath often manifeſted it ſelfe, miracles wrought at Saints ſepulchres, and images, by exorciſing of Prieſts to the caſting out of Deuils, by Croſſes, and Holy Water, vvhichwhich hauehave often put the Deuill to flight; and almoſt all points of our religion hauehave beene confirmed by miraculous reuelations, to ſome holy perſons of vnſuſpected credit, who hauehave vponupon their faith affirmed the ſame.
Paul.
Theſe miracles make much on your ſide indeed, to proue your religion Antichriſtian,Theſ. Reuel. and your Pope Antichriſt, ſeeing it is ſaid, that he ſhould come with lying wonders, and ſhould cauſe fire to come downe from heauen, to theſe ducing of many? Miracles indeed had their vſe in the firſt propagating of the Goſpell:1 Cor. 14. but they were for vnbeleeuers, ſmce they hauehave ceaſed as needleſſe, euen as (to vſe the ſimilitude of Gregory) the husbandman hauing newly planted an Orchard, watereth it: But when it is well rooted, hee watereth it no more.Deut. 23. If any giuegive a ſigne amongſt the people of God, to proue any new matter in religion, not propounded in the vvritten Word of God, hee is pronounced a falſe Prophet. Moreouer, many of your miracles hauehave been proued cooſenages, by which we may gheſſe what the reſt are: and for reuelations, they may well bee counted rather deluſions of Satan, who is ready to tempt men according to their humours, and ſuperſtitious Monkes to more ſuperſtitions.
Serg. Paul.
Are miracles then of ſo little force now? What meaneth our Saniour Chriſt when hee maketh this a ſigne of the true faith? Mark. 16.17.He that beleeueth, theſe ſignes ſhall follow, he ſhall caſt out Deuils, lay his hands vponupon the ſicke and heale them, &c.
Paul.
Miracles were very frequent indeed then, as was needfull: but it was not to bee expected, that theſe ſignes ſhould follow alwayes, when al countreys and Nations being conuerted, the truth had gotten other ſufficient teſtimonie vvithout ſignes. OnelyOnly God doth ſomething miraculouſly oftentimes for the credit of his Goſpell in all ages, as by puniſhing extraordinarily the enemies of his truth, and bleſſing ſuch as fauour it. Thus the perſecuting Emperors vvere extraordinarily iudged; and the firſt Chriſtian Emperor extraordinarily bleſſed, in that they all for the ſpace of three hundred yeares liued moſt turbulent liues, had moſt vnquiet eſtates, and almoſt all of them ſuffered by violent deaths, after a ſhort raigne: but Conſtantine the firſt Chriſtian Emperour liued long, was eueryevery where victorious, and then reigned in peace, and dyed in peace. And of theſe miracles, bleſſed be God, we are full in this kingdome: for Queene Mary that ſtood for Poperie, had but a ſhort time, was extraordinarily diſappointed of the hoped for ſucceſſor of her owne body, to the amazement of all, and ſo was cut off in the prime of her age. But Queene Elizabeth of bleſſed memory, had a long time, and the diuine protection did compaſſe her about as a ſhield againſt all treaſons, and conſpiracies; ſo that they were miraculouſly diſappointed, and hauing reigned in peace, inticht her kingdom more then euer, abated the pride of her enemies, and mightily ſuccoured other diſtreſſed Proteſtants, in a good old age ſhe departed in peace. And ſince that time our gracious King, that now raigneth, whom God long preſerue: how miraculouſly both he and we all vnderunder him hauehave beene deliuered; and in what peace he hath and doth ſtill gouerne ſuch mighty Nations, like another Salomon in ſuch tumultuous times: it is ſo well knowne, that I ſhall not need to ſpeake. And that blow, which your Religion had at Blacke-Friers, October 26 of this yeare, by the onelyonly hand of God, both Teacher and people, to the number of about an hundred perſons, being ſuddenly cut off at one of your Sermons: and the firſt, that hath beene publike to our Country-men, ſince the ſuppreſſion of Pope y, and that vponupon your Nouember 5, at vvhat time our ouerthrow (thankes bee to God) was in another yeare in vaine attempted: that, I ſay, the like whereof was neuer heard, was a very miracle to the confounding of your ſuperſtitions, which you thought by degrees to bring in here againe, and to crowde out the truth. For howſoeuer we are all to tremble, and to take occaſion to repent by Gods iudgements; yet when Corah, Dathan and Abiram with their company, are in the very offering of their incenſe deſtroyed; their ſeruice as a conſpiracy is confounded, that all men may take heed of it, and the ſeruice of Moſes and Aaron honoured. I could aſcend higher to times paſt, and ſhew miracles in the fufferings of our Martyrs, and in the iudgements vponupon your perſecutors: and I could inlarge my ſelfe to ſpeake of the miraculous preſeruation of Geneua, and of the wonderfull ſucceſſe of the Proteſtants in France in former times, and of ſome Kings there, and of the Bohemians in the time of Iohn Huſſe: and it ſhall ſuffice to hauehave giuen this taſte at home, and ſo neare hand.
Elym.
Theſe outward things are no proofes,Eccl 9.2. ſeeing all things fall out alike vntounto all. But in the midſt of all your good ſucceſſe, ye hauehave not been able to inlarge your Religion, but onelyonly to a few countreys here in Europe: whereas the true Church is Catholike ouerſpreading all Nations, which marke is in the Church of Rome, but not in yours.
Paul.
You abuſe that Text of all things falling out alike to all. For that is ſpoken only of the godly, and the wicked, which are religious and care not for religion; and not of thoſe that are zealous for their religion, bee it true or falſe, when they are all bound to embrace the truth. For in this caſe God hath euer put a plaine difference betwixt thoſe of his people that hauehave worſhipped him aright, and that hauehave beene corrupted by idolatry, powring downe great and manifeſt bleſſings vponupon the one ſort, and apparant curſes vponupon the other, as it is at large ſet forth in the bookes of Iudges, Samuel and the Kings: thus as the great Vmpire ouer all, determining for the Truth, and againſt Errour. As for the Catholociſme, which you ſo much bragge of; I hauehave already ſhewed, that Grecia a part of the world not the furtheſt remote, hath neuer wholly imbraced your Religion; and by your cruclties your Church hath become ſo odious amongſt the Indians, that they abhorre it therefore; and it is notoriouſly knowne, that by your very images and faithleſneſſe, the Turkes hauehave been hindred from ruining to Chriſtianitie, and ſo hauehave the ſca…tered Iewes. Our Church is Apoſtolike, as hath beene proued, and therefore Catholike, though the time is not yet come, ſince the reformation, of being inlarged to all parts, for ſo neither was Chriſtianitie vponupon the ſudden, though caried forth by extraordinary inſtruments. But to yeeld the pretended vniuerſality of your Church ſo corrupted: what tendeth this vntounto indeed, but to proue your Church to bee ſpirituall Babel, and your Pope to be the whore of Babel, ſeeing as ſhee, ſo Rome ſitteth as a Queene, and ruleth ouer the Nations of the earth.
Serg. Paul.
Fie, fie, Paul, this ſauoureth rather of ſpleene, then of ſound iudgement: for that Babylon is a perſecuter of all Chriſtians, and an open oppugner of Chriſt, and ſo may with good reaſon indeed bee reputed heathen Rome, vnderunder the perſecuting Emperours, but not Popiſh Rome, wherein Chriſt is honoured, and Chriſtians are harboured.
Paul.
Worthy Sir, I ſpeake out of no ſpleene, but aduiſedly, pitying the people, that being ſeduced by this whore, run headlong after her to their own deſtruction. For, that popiſh Rome and not heathen Rome is that Babel, I proue by theſe 2 inuincible reaſons. Firſt, from her name, the great Whore, Reu. 17.1. verſ. 5.and the mother of whordomes and abhomiuations of the earth. Now whordome in the Scripture phraſe, as all know, is Idolatry, and yet eueryevery idolatrous nation is not ſaid to be a whore, but only that where God hath beene rightly worſhipped, but his worſhip is become corrupt by the bringing in of Idols: for in this reſpect when Iudah and Iſrael are ſaid to hauehave playd the whore, neither Babel nor Sodom, nor any other nation is taxed by this name. Whence is neceſſarily followeth, that Rome where God hath beene truly worſhipped, but ſince hath beene by Idols corrupted, muſt be meant by Babel that great whore; and not heathen Rome, which was originally idolatrous. Again, the other part of the name, the Mother of Whordomes, implyeth a place, from whence the idolatries of other Countreys hauehave ſprung, ſuch as was not Heathen Rome, which receiued her idolatries from other nations, as ſhe ſubdued them, that they might the more willingly obey the Romane State; but Popiſh Rome, the very mother of all the Idolatries in all nations round about. Secondly, I reaſon from the end of this Babel. Reuel 18 2.Babylon is falne and is become the habitation of Deuils, the bold of all foule spirits, and a Cage of eueryevery vncleane and hatefull bird. And againe,verſ. 3. She ſhall be burnt with fire. Heathen Rome falling, this deſolation hath not ſucceeded, but was more worthily inhabited then euer before, with Chriſtians in ſtead of Ethnicks, and therefore this Babel is not that Rome, but Rome that now is, whoſe iudgements ſhall be according to her bleſſings, as the iudgements of Ieruſalem, not to bee once deſtroyed, and then repeopled againe, but to be burnt with fire, neuer to be againe reedifyed, but to remaine a perpetuall ſpectacle of deſolation for the glory of Gods iuſtice againſt ſuch a ſinke of abhominations.
Serg. Paul.
But you hauehave not yet touched that note, which chiefly is pointed at as the cauſe of Babels ruine. In her was found the blood of the Prophets, and of the Saints,Reu. 18.24. &c. What Prophets or Saints hauehave beene ſlaine in Rome, ſince the Chriſtians bare ſway? She hath honoured many Saints with canonizing them, but blood of Saints ſhe hath ſhed none.
Paul.
By Prophets, as all know, are vnderſtood Preachers of the Goſpell, and by Saints, godly and faithfull people: for ſuch in the holy Scriptures are called ſaints, the Pope canonized ſaints not being knowne then. And of theſe, what place in the world ſo full of the blood as Popiſh Rome, ſith ſhe hath beene the bellows to blow vp the coales, that hauehave burnt thouſands of moſt godly innocent people, and from her hath been deriued the bloody cruelty which hath been exerciſed by the Potentates of the earth againſt the numberleſſe ſhepheards and ſheepe of Chriſts flocke, to the deſtroying of them in moſt inhumane and barbarous manner. I thanke you therefore for putting me in minde of this note; for by cruelty and blood-ſhed is the ſinne of the Church of Rome come to the height, neither doth any thing threaten ſo formidable iudgmēts againſt her as the cry of ſo much innocent blood, ſhed with ſuch exquiſite torments, that if Nebuchadnezzar King of Babel were aliue, he might be aſham'd that hee could inuent no more long lingring tormenting death, but caſt thoſe that would not worſhip his Image, into a hot fiery furnace, ſo hot as that they might bee preſently diſpacht, when as the King of this Babel hath an hundred wayes more tormenting, to deſtroy his oppugners, and a far more terrifying courſe by impriſoning long, vilely dieting, cruelly racking, and at laſt burning them in a lingring paineprotracting fire.
Serg. Paul.
But it is not for their ſanctity, that he dealeth thus with them, but for their Hereſies, for which he thinketh them worthy of any torment, that others being by them warned, may take heed of falling into the like.
Paul.
This is his pretence indeed, but if it be hereſie, then the pure milke ſucked out of the breſts of the old and new Teſtament without any forraigne mixture muſt be hereſie, for ſuch I hauehave particularly ſhewed in the beginning of this Colloquy all our doctrine to be. It is therefore for zeale and ſanctity meerly that we ſuffer, and if it were otherwiſe, yet the Pope muſt needs for this be Antichriſt, and popery Antichriſtianiſme. For who is Antichriſt, but he that is againſt Chriſt? and who is againſt Chriſt, but he that teacheth and ſetteth men on to doe againſt Chriſts teaching? If Chriſt then had bidden Peter to put vp his ſword and not to ſtrike therewith for his cauſe, in way of reuenge, vponupon thoſe that were contrary minded, is not he Antichriſt that gloryeth in ſtriking with the ſword? If Chriſt rebuked the raſh zeale of thoſe that would hauehave called for fire from heauen to deſtroy ſuch as refuſed to entertaine Chriſt; are not they Antichriſtian that with fire & fagot deſtroy all? If Chriſt bad, let the tares and wheat grow together till the harueſt, leſt whileſt the tares be pulled out, the wheat be plucked vp alſo; is not he Antichriſt that biddeth pluck vp the tares howſoeuer, deſtroy the Hereticks in France and in Germany by the ſword, and in England with Gunpowder, though many Catholikes periſh together with them alſo? To ſay nothing of other things wherein he is plainly againſt Chriſt.
Elym.
You ſhew your ſpite againſt his Holineſſe now indeed. How can you ſpeake thus without bluſhing, when as it is plainly ſet forth, as the note of Antichriſt,1. Iohn 4.1. that he denyeth Chriſt to hauehave come in the fleſh: and to confeſſe Chriſt come in the fleſh, the note of Gods Spirit; Wherefore the Pope cannot be Antichriſt. And if cruelty againſt Heretikes bee an argument to proue Antichriſt, I pray let your rulers take part with him herein; ſeeing that in cruelty they are no whit inferiour to Catholike rulers, if they exceed them not. For what holy Prieſts, and zealous deſmits hauehave beene ſpared from the ſword, what priuate profeſſors of the Catholike Religion from moſt cruell vſage, impriſoning and ſpoyling ſince the beginning of Queene Elizabeths reigne, cill euen of late, when the clemency of a more mercifull King abhorring from all tyranny, hath made their yoak ſomwhat eaſier?
Paul.
You ſhew eyther your ignorance or wilfulneſſe in alleaging that text of Saint Iohn. For who knoweth not, that there are more Antichriſts then one? ſome are open profeſſed enemies to Chriſt; of whom St. Iohn ſpeaketh, that thoſe may eaſily be knowne by their denying of Chriſt; but there is one called the Antichriſt, which I hauehave alſo ſet forth, that ſitteth in the Temple of God, and commeth with all decei…ableneſſe, which things could not agree vntounto him, if hee plainly denyed Chriſt; and this Antichriſt your Pope may well be, notwithſtanding his outward profeſſion of Chriſtianity. And for your reply to draw in our Gouernors into the ſame predicament for their cruelty. I wonder, that you and your fellowes are not aſhamed to broach ſo many notorious lyes, as you hauehave done touching all manner of cruelties exerciſed here in England, againſt your ſect, when as ſince the beginning of that moſt bleſſed Queenes reigne (though there was iuſt cauſe, and but your owne meaſure ſhould hauehave bin meted to you againe, if all your ſect had beene rooted out with fire and ſword without partiality) not one Papiſt hath beene put to death for his religion. But becauſe by experience it was found dangerous to the State, to ſuffer Prieſts and Ieſuits to come into the land, their comming being for treaſon and rebellion, they were proceeded againſt as traytors that preſumed contrary to the Law to enter this Kingdome. And leſt there ſhould bee danger in the reſt, they hauehave beene confined and fined, as commmon policy requireth, the more they were kept vnderunder and reſtrained, the ſecurity of the State being the more; and contrariwiſe the more their wealth and liberty was, the greater was the danger of the Kingdome. Wherefore here hath beene no perſecution of Religion, but of rebellion, no execution done vponupon conſcience, but vponupon treaſon, as your own conſcience cannot but witneſſe with vsus.
Elym.
There is no end, I ſee of wording with you, ſo many are your ſhifts and colours at eueryevery turne: but I hope you hauehave ſeen your beſt dayes, & both you & your religion ſhall now downe as faſt, as euer it came vp, and the Catholike religion ſhall be againe in eueryevery place reſtored, and then the deed will proue the truth, and that your hereſy is not of God, for then it could not bee reſiſted. Wherefore (moſt noble Gouernor) let not this Heretick ſeduce you, but prouide for your honor, peace, and ſafety by ioyning with Catholicke Princes, who alone almoſt rule all Europe, and would be glad, to ſee you become a good Catholicke alſo, and ſo to proſecute with all entire louelove, honor & eſtimation.
Paul.
Now you ſhew your ſelfe in your colours indeed a true child of the Deuill, tempting by worldly honours and reſpects, as he did Chriſt. But (moſt excellent Sergius) your wiſedome I hope is ſuch, that you will eaſily reiect theſe temptations as Chriſt did the Deuils, with it is written,Pſal. 20.8. They which truſt in horſes and chariots, or in worldly Princes ſhall fall downe, but ſuch as trust in God ſhall ſtand vp ſtedfaſtly. For mine owne part I doubt not, but the eager putting on of popiſh Potentates of late dayes to ouerthrow the truth at once, is a preſage of the ruine of that ſuperſtition being euen at the dores. For ſo the Chriſtian Religion being moſt indangered in the dayes of Eugenius, when the aduerſaries ſought to deſtroy it all at once; his rage was turned to bee fatall to Gentiliſme, being immediatly after ſo put downe as that it was neuer able to make head againe.
Serg. Paul.
God forbid, that I through any feare or hope ſhould be drawne to that, which I ſo plainly now ſee to bee dangerous to the ſoule. No, no, (thou bewitching Elymas) I hauehave giuen too much care to thy deceiuable reaſons to incline to ſo fauourable an opinion of your Antichriſtianiſme. From henceforth I charge you to come at my Court no more, for I will no more hauehave communion with you, or ſuch as you are, but onelyonly as I am commanded, I will as much as in me lyeth hauehave peace with all men. And thou Paul, (the true meſſenger of God) ſhalt at all times be welcome vntounto me. Many ſuch Preachers God bleſſe mee and my Dominion with all, for they are truely the ſeruants of God, and all that will be moued the rather for my countenance, let them hearken vntounto them, and fly all communion with ſophiſticall Ieſuites and Prieſts: So ſhall I account them good and loyall ſubiects to me in whom my heart ſhall truſt, and they ſhall eſcape the greateſt and the moſt bewitching danger of the ſoule that euer was.
FINIS.
End of the text · John Mayer, Antidote Against Popery (1625)