Christs Victory over Satans Tyranny, Book 11 · Part 60
The fift Examination.
Couen.
DOe you not beléeue your Créed, I beléeue in the Catholick Church.
Phil.
Yes, but I cannot vnderstand Rome to be the same, nor the like to it. S. Asse. S. Peter builded the Catholick Church at Rome: And Christ saith thou art Peter, and vponupon this Rock I will build my Church, and the succession of Bishops can be proued in Rome from time to time, as it can be of no other place so well, which is a manifest proofe of the Catholick Church, as diuers Doctors do… write.
Phil.
You cannot proue the Rock, that Christ would build his Church on, to bee Rome; and though you can proue the succession of Bishops, it is not sufficient to proue Rome the Catholick Church, vnlesse you can proue the succession of Peters Faith? where vponupon the Catholick Church is builded to continue in his successors at Rome: and at this present to remaine there.
Couen.
What meaneth this word Catholick?
Phil.
The Catholick Faith or Catholick Church is not that which is most vniuersall or of men receiued, wherby you d…e infer your Faith to hang vponupon the multitude, which is not so: We iudge (saith S. Augustine) the Catholick Faith, of that which hath been, is, and shall be: so that if you can proue your Catholick Church and Faith, hath been taught from the beginning, and is, and shall be, then may you count your selues Catholicks, otherwise not: Catholick in Gréeke is compounded of … which signifieth according and foreign, a summe, or principle, or whole, so that Catholick Church or Faith, is as much to say as the first, hole, sound, & chéefest faith.
Boner.
Doe you thinke the Catholick Church hath erred, vntill within these few yeares some hauehave swarued from the same.
Phil.
I doe not thinke the Catholick Church hath erred: but I require you to proue the Church of Rome the Catholick Church.
Curtop.
Ireneus, who was within a hundred yeares after Christ, came to Victor Bishop of Rome, to aske his aduice about excommunication of certaine hereticks, which he would not hauehave done if hee had not taken him to bee supreme head, and Couentry bad him marke this Argument.
Phil.
This fact of Ireneus proueth no more for the supremacie then mine hath done, for I hauehave béen at Rome as well as he, and could hauehave spoken with the Pope and if I would: yet would there were none in England fauoured his supremacie more then I: And it is not like that Ireneus, or the primatiue church so take him, for I can shew 7. generall Councels after Ireneus time: wherin he was neuer so taken in many hundred y…eres after Christ: These be the Councels; the Nicentine, Ephesine, the first, & second: Calcedone, Constantinopolitane, Carthagenense, Auilence.
Couen.
Wherefore will you not admit the Church of Rome to be the Catholick Church.
Phil.
Because it followeth not, nor agréeth with the Primitiue Church, no more then an Apple is like a Nut: it were too long to name all the disagréements: I will name but two: The Supremacie, and Transubstantiation.
Curtop.
Although transubstantiation were decréed for an Article of the Faith, not aboue 300. yeares, yet it was alwaies beléeued. Boner said, that was well said.
Phil.
It is true, it was but lately planted by the Bishop of Rome, and you cannot shew any ancient writer that the primitiue Church did beleeue any such thing, with that Master Curtop shrunke away.
Couen.
Can you disproue the Church of Rome, not to be the Catholick Church.
Phil.
Yes that I can, but I desire rather to heare you proue it: First it doth not agree with the Primitiue Church, neither in Doctrine, nor in the vse of Sacraments: And as you describe Catholick to be vniuersall; the Church of Rome was neuer vniuersall: For the world being diuided into three parts: Asia, Africa, Europe: Two parts Asia, and Africa, professing Christ as well as wee, did neuer consent to the Church of Rome, and the most part of Europe doth not agrée nor allow the Church of Rome: As Germany, Denmarke, the Kingdome of Pole, a great part of France, England, and Zeland, which is a manifest probation that your Church is not vniuerfall,
Doctor Sauer.
I am sory to sée you commune with so many learned men, and are no more conformable vntounto them then you be.
Phil.
I will be conformable vntounto them that be conformable to Christ & his word: I pray (Master Doctor) be not so conformable to please men more then God, contrarie to your learning for worldly estimation, you are led away from the truth for promotion sake as many Doctors be now adaies.
Sauer.
Saint Cyprian, (an ancient Writer) doth allow the Bishop of Rome to be supreme head of the Church.
Phil.
I am sure he doth not, for he writing to Cornelius Bishop of Rome, called him his companion and fellow Bishop, and calleth him not Pope nor any other vsurped termes, which are now ascribed vntounto the Bishop of Rome. Then they brought forth Cyprian, and turned vntounto the third Epistle, where hee saith it goeth not well with the Church, when the High Priest is not obayed, which supplieth the steed of Christ, after Gods word, and the consent of the Bishops, and the agreement of the people.
Sauer.
How can you auoid this place which maketh so plaine for the Bishop of Rome his Supremacie.
Phil.
It maketh not so plaine: First heare you may see that he calleth Cornelius his fellow Bishop, as he doth also in other places, you do misconstrue that same to make the high Priest onelyonly for the Bishop of Rome, and otherwise then it was in his time: for there were by the Nicen… Councell foure Patriaches appointed: The Patriarke of Ierusalem, and the Patriarke of Constantinople: The Patriarke of Alexandria, and the Patriarke of Rome: of which foure the Patriarch of Rome was lowest placed in the Councell, and so continued many yeares for the time of seuen or eight generall Conncels: Therefore Cyprian writeth vntounto Cornelius, Patriarck of Rome, because certaine hereticks, as the N…uatians which were excommunicated by him, went from his Dioces▪ to the Patriarcks of Rome, or of Constantinople, and there were receiued in the Communion of there congregation in derogation of good discipline, and maintaining of schismes: in that obedience is not giuen vntounto the Priest of GOD, being in Christs steede, not meaning the Patriarck of Rome onelyonly, but eueryevery Patriarck in his precinet, who had eueryevery one of them a Cathedrall Church of learned Priests, in hearing of whom by a Conuocation of all his fellow Bishops, with the consent of the people, all heresies were determined by the Word of GOD, and this is the meaning of Cyprian.
Sauer.
I wonder you will stand so stedfast in your errour to your owne destruction.
Phil.
I am sure we are in no errour, by the promise of Christ to the faithfull, that he will giuegive them such a spirit of wisedome, that the aduersaries therof should be neuer able to resist, and by this wee know wee are of the truth, because neither by reasoning nor writing your Synagogue of Rome is able to answere one of the learned Ministers of Germany, who hath disclosed your counterset Religion, which of all you is able to answere Caluins institutions: Then Doctor Story came in, to whom I said you hauehave done me great iniury, without Law you hauehave imprisoned me more like a dog then a man, and you promised mee I should be iudged the next day after.
Story.
I am come now to kéep my promise with you, was there euer such a fantasticall man as he is; may he is no man but a beast: yea these hereticks bee worse then beasts, for they will take vponupon them to be wiser then all men; being very asseheads, not able to maintaine that which they stand in.
Phil.
I am content to abide your rayling Iudgement, God forgiue you: yet I am no heretick, neither you nor any other can proue that I hold any iot against the Word of God.
Story.
The Word of God: whom wilt thou appoint to be a iudge of the word?
Phil.
The word it selfe.
Story.
Doe you not sée the Ignorance of this beastly Heretick, hee willeth the word to be iudge of the word, can the word speake.
Phil.
Christ saith in S. Iohn, The word which I hauehave spoken, shall Iudge in the last day: therefore much more it ought to iudge our doing now, and I am sure I hauehave my Iudge on my side, which shall absolue and iustifie me in another world, howsoeuer you iudge me and other vnrighteously, sure I am in another World to iudge you.
Story.
What, you purpose to be a stinking Martyr, and to sit in iudgment with Christ at the last day, to iudge the twelue Tribes of Israell.
Phil.
Yea, I doubt not thereof, I hauehave the promise of Christ if I die for righteousnesse sake, which you hauehave begun to persecute in me.
Story.
When the Iudge in Westminster hall giueth sentence, doth the word giuegive sentence, or the Iudge, tell me.
Phil.
Ciuill men hauehave authority by the word of God, to be Iudges of ciuill matters: but the word of God is not subiect to mans iudgement, but ought to iudge al the wisedome, thoughts, and doings of men; therefore your comparison disproueth nothing which I hauehave said, nor answereth thereto.
Story.
Wilt thou not allow the interpretation of the Church vponupon the Scripture.
Phil.
Yes, if it be according vntounto the word of the true Church.
Story.
And not wee in possession of the Church, and hauehave not our fore-fathers this many hundred yeares, taken this Church for the Catholike Church, and if we had no other proofe, this were sufficient, for presumption of time, maketh a good title in Law.
Phil.
You doe well to alleadge prescription, for it is all that you hauehave to shew for your selues, but you must vnderstand, that presciption hath no place in matters appertaining vntounto GOD, as I can shew you by the testimonie of many Doctors.
Story.
Well Sirs, you are like to go after your Fathers, Latimer and Ridley, who had nothing to alledge for himselfe, but that he had learned his heresie of Cranmer, where I came vntounto him with a poore Bacheler of Art, & he trembled as though he had had the Palsie, as these hereticks hauehave alwaies some token of feare, whereby a man may know them, as you may sée this mans eies to tremble in his head, but I dispatched them: and I tell thée, that there hath yet béen neuer a one burned, but I hauehave spoken with him, and béene a cause of his dispatch.
Phil.
You hauehave the more to answer for, you shall féele it in another world, howsoeuer you do now triumph thereof.
Story.
I will neuer be confessed thereof, I cannot tarry to speake with my Lord, I pray one of you tell my Lord, my comming is to signifie vntounto him, that hee must put of hand rid this Hereticke out of the way, and going he said vntounto me; I tel thée thou must thank no other man but me for this.
Phil.
I thanke you with all my heart, and God forgiue you.
Story.
What dost thou thanke me, if I had thée in my study halfe an houre, I thinke I should make you sing another song.
Phil.
No, I stand vponupon to sure a ground to be ouerthrowne by you now.