Christs Victory over Satans Tyranny, Book 11 · Part 24 – Part 26
Communication betwixt the Archbishop of Yorke, and the Bishop of Chichester, with BRADFORD in prison.
York.
HOw know you the word of God but by the Church?
Brad.
The Church is a meane to bring a man to the more spéedy knowledge of the Scriptures, as the woman of Samaria was a meane that the Samarita…s knew Christ: but when as they had heard him speake, they said now wee know that he is Christ, not because of thy words, but because we our selues hauehave heard him: so after we come to the hearing and reading of the Scriptures, shewed vntounto vsus by the Church: we beleeue them, and know them as Christs sheepe, not because the Church saith they be the Scriptures, but because they be so, wee being assured thereof by the spirit which wrote and spake them.
Yorke.
In the Apostles time the word was not written.
Brad.
True, if you meane it for some bookes of the New Testament: but for the Old Testament, Peter telleth vsus it is a more sure word of Prophesie, not that it is so simply, but in respect of the Apostles, which being aliue and compassed with infirmities: by reason whereof men might perchance hauehave found fault with their preaching, they attributed vntounto the Prophets more firmenes, as wherewith no fault could be …und: albeit in verity no lesse obedience and faith ought to be giuen vntounto the one, then the other; both proceeding of one Spirit of truth.
York.
Ireneus and others doe magnifie much, and alledge the C…urch, and not the Scriptures against the heretickes.
Brad.
They had to doe with such-hereticks as did deny the Scriptures, and y…t did magnifie the Apostles: so that they were inforced to vse the authoritie of those Churches wherein the Apostles had taught, and which did still retaine the same Doctrine: then the alledging of the Church cannot be principally vsed against me, which am so farre from denying the Scriptures, that I appeale vntounto them vtterly as to the onelyonly Iudge.
Yorke.
A pretty matter that you will take vponupon to Iudge the Church: where hath your Church been hitherto? for the Church of Christ is Catholick and visible, hitherto.
Brad.
I doe not Iudge the Church when I discerne it from the congregation, which is not the Church, and I neuer denied the Church to b… Catholick, and vi… ble; although at some times it is more visible then at other times.
Chichest.
Where was your Church forty yeares agone, which allowed your Doctrine: I said I would tell him, if he would tell mee, where the Church was in Helias his time, when Helias said, he was left alone: he said, that is no answere.
Brad.
If you had the same eyes wherewith a man might hauehave espied the Church, then you would not say it was no answer: The fault why the Church is not s…ne of you, is not because the Church is not visible, but because your eyes are not cléere …ough to sée it.
Chich.
You are much deceiued in making this collation betwixt the Church then and now: Yorke said, it was very well spoken, for Christ said, I will build my Church, and not, I do, or hauehave built it.
Brad.
Peter teacheth me to make this collation, saying: As amongst the people there were false Prophets, which were most in estimation before Christs comming, so shall there be false teachers amongst the people after Christs comming, and verie many shall follow them: and as for your future tense, you wil not conclude Christs Church not to hauehave béene before, but rather that there is no builder in the Church but by Christ onelyonly, in that he saith; I will build my Church, for Paul and Apollo be but waterers.
York.
He taketh vponupon him to iudge the Church, a man shall neuer come to certainty that doth so.
Brad.
I speake simply that which I thinke, and desire reasons to answere my Obiections: assuredly you did well to depart from the Romish Church, but you hauehave done wickedly to coupple your selues to it againe, for you can neuer proue it, which you call the mother Church, to be Christs Church.
Chichest.
You were but a Childe then, I was but a young man, come from the Uniuersitie, and went with the World, but it was alwaies against my conscience.
Brad.
I thinke you hauehave done euill, for ye are come, and hauehave brought others to that wicked man which sitteth in the Temple of God, which is the Church, for it cannot be vnderstood of Mahomer, or any out of the Church, but of such as beare rule in the Church.
Yorke.
Sée how you build your Faith vponupon the most obscure places of the Scripture to deceiue your selfe, as though you were in the Church which are not.
Brad.
Well my Lord, though I might by truth iudge you and others, yet will not I vtterly exclude you out of the Church, but I am not out of the Communion of the Church, for it consisteth in Faith.
York.
Loe, how you make your Church inuisible, for you would hauehave the Communion of it to consist in Faith.
Brad.
To hauehave Communion of the Church, néedeth not visiblenesie of it, for Communion consisteth in Faith, and not in exterior Ceremonies, as appeareth by Paul, which would hauehave one Faith: and by Ireneus to Victor, saying; disagréeing of fasting should not breake the agréeing of Faith.
Chichest.
That place hath often wounded my conscience, because we disseuered our selues from the Sea of Rome.
Brad.
God forgiue you, for you hauehave done euill to bring England thither againe.
Yorke.
He read a Paper of Common places, how many things held Saint Augustine in the Church, consent of people and Nations authority, confirmed with Miracles, nourished with hope, increased with Charity, established with antiquity: the succession of Priests from Peters Seat, to this present Bishop: lastlie, the verie Name of a Catholique doth hold me in. Paint me but your Church thus.
Brad.
This maketh as much for me as for you, but all this, if they had béene so firme as you would make them, might hauehave béene alledged against Christ and his …postles, for there was the Law, and the Ceremonies, consented on by the whole people, confirmed with Miracles, Antiquity, and continuall succession of Bishops from Aaron.
Cich.
You make to much of the State of the Church before Chrs…s comming.
Brad.
Therein I do but as Peter teacheth, and Paul very often; you would gladly hauehave your Church héere very glorious, and as a most pleasant Lady, but as Christ saith, so may the Church say; Blessed are they that are not offended at me.
Yorke.
You thinke none is of the Church but such as suffer persecution.
Brad.
Paul saith, All that will liue godly in Christ, must suffer persecution: sometime Christs Church hath rest heere, but commonly it is not so, especially towards the end her forme will be more vnséemly.
York.
Where is your Church that hath consent of people and Nations, as S. Augustine saith.
Brad.
Euen all people and Nations that bee Gods people, hauehave consented with me, and them in the Doctrine of Faith.
Yorke.
Saint Augustine speaketh of succession from Peters Seat.
Brad.
That seat then was nothing so much corrupt as it is now.
York.
Well, you alwaies iudge the Church.
Brad.
No my Lord, Christs shéepe discerne Christs voyce, but they iudge it not so: they discerne the Church, but not Iudge her, yet full well may wee iudge the Romish Church, for she obeyeth not Christs voyce, and Christs true Church doth. He asked me wherein: I said, in Latine Seruice, and robbing the Laity of Christs Cup in the Sacrament, and many other things, in which it committeth most horrible sacriledge.
Yorke.
Latine Seruice was appointed to be sung and had in the Quire, where onelyonly were those that vnderstood Latine: The people sitting in the body of the Church, praying their owne priuate prapers, and this may well be yet séene by making of the Chancell and the Quire, so that the people could not come in or heare them.
Brad.
In Chrysostomes time, and S. Ieromes time, all the Church did answere with a loud voyce, Amen. Whereby we may sée, that the prayers were made so, that the people both heard and vnderstood them.
York.
We léese our labour, you seeke to put away all things that are told you for your good, your Church no man can know: I said, yes that you may: He said, I pray whereby.
Brad.
Chrysostome saith onelyonly by the Scriptures, and this he speaketh very oftentimes, as you know.
York.
That is or Chrysostome, In opere imperfecto, which may bee doubted of the thing, which the Church may be best knowne by, is succession of Bishops.
Brad.
Lira well writeth vponupon Mathew, that Ecclesia non consistit in homi…bus ratione potestatis secularis, aut ecclesiasticae, sed in hominibus in quibus est notitia vera, & confessio fidei & veritatis. And Hilarius writeth to Auxentius, that the church is rather hid in Caues, then eminent in chiefe seats: then after they had been there thrée houres, they were called away.
Iohn Leafe burned with Maister Bradford.
THis Iohn, was an Apprentice with a Chandler in Christ-Church in London, eighteene yeares old, borne in Kirkley M…eside, in the County of Yorke, hee was examined before Bonner: he said, that after the words of consecration in the Sacrament of the Altar, ouer the Bread and Wine, there was not the true and naturall body and blood of Christ in substance: and as it is now vsed and beleeued in the Realm of England, it is abhominable Idolatry: And he beleeued, that after consecration, it remaineth Bread and Wine as it was before, and it is receiued in the remembrance of the death and passion of Christ, and so spiritually in Faith they receiue Christs body and blood. And he affirmeth, that Auriculer confession is not necessary to be made vntounto a Priest, and it is no point of soules health to beléeue that the Priest hath any authority by the Scriptures, to remit sins.
And being asked if he had béene Maister Rogers his Scholler, he graunted it so to be, and he did beléeue the Doctrine of the said Rogers, and the Doctrine of Byshop Hooper, Cardmaker, and others of their opinion, which of late were burned for Christ, and that he will die in that Doctrine: and the Bishoppe moouing of him to vnitie of the Church, He said, My Lord, you call mine opinion Heresie, it is the true light of the Word of GOD, and hee would neuer forsake his well grounded opinion whilst breath was in his bodie: Whereupon he was condemned.
When these two came to the stake in Smithfield to be burned, Maister Bradford lay prostrate on the one side of the stake, and the young man on the other, praying a space, vntill the Sheriffes man bad Maister Bradford arise, then they both rose. Maister Bradford desired the Sheriffe that his man might hauehave his apparell, which he granted him. When he was vnready, he said; O England, England, repent thee of thy sinnes, beware of Idolatry, beware of false Antichrists, that they deceiue thée not. Then the Sheriffe bad tye his hands, if he would not be quiet: He said, I am quiet, God forgiue you this. One of the Officers that made the Fire said; If you hauehave no more learning then that, you are but a foole, and were best to hold your peace: Then Maister Bradford answered no more, but asked the world forgiuenesse, and forgaue all the world, and prayed the people to pray for him, and …id the young man be of good comfort, for we shall hauehave a merry Supper with the Lord this night, then he imbraced the Réeds and said: Straight is the way, and narrow is the gate that leadeth to eternall saluation, and few there be that finde it: In the Booke at large thou maist sée many godly Letters of his.
This Maister Woodroffe, Sheriffe, as he would not suffer Maister Bradford to speake, but bad his hands to be tyed: so, or worse, he serued Maister Rogers, and all that were burned, where the other Sheriffe would weepe at their burning, he would laugh at it, and would restraine and beat the people, who were desirous to take them by the hand. In fine, the foresaid Maister Woodroffe, after the burning of Maister Bradford, as soone as he came home, was taken lame both arme and legge, so that after hee could neuer stirre out of his house, nor scarse mooue himselfe.
WILLIAM MINGE.
THe next day after Bradfords death, William Minge, Priest, died in Maidstone Iayle, being in bonds for Religion, and had suffered martyrdome if hee had liued, for he died in great constancy and boldnesse.