Christs Victory over Satans Tyranny, Book 11 · Part 52
The Conference of RIDLEY and LATIMER, vponupon the obiection of ANTONIAN.
Antonian.
ALL men maruell why you goe not to Masse, which is a thing much esteemed of all men, and of the Queene her selfe.
Ridley.
Because no man that layeth hand on the plough, and looketh back is fit for the Kingdome of God. Saint Paul would not suffer Titus to be circumcised, that the truth of the Gospell might remaine with vsus vncorrupt, and if I build againe the things which I destroyed, I am a trespasser: And another cause is least I should seeme to allow that which I know to bee contrarie to sound Doctrine, and to be a stumbli…g stock to the weake, so w… should be to me by whom of…ence commeth: it were better wee were cast into the Sea with a Milstone about our neckes.
Anto.
What is it in the Masse that so offendeth you, that you will not heare nor see it: hauehave you not in times past said Masse your selfe.
Rid.
I am sory therfore, and I trust God hath forgiuen me, for I did it ignorantly, & these things in the Masse are contrary to Gods Word and offend me. The strange tongue, the want of shewing the Lords death, the Sacrament is not communicated vntounto all vnderunder both kinds: the sign is worshipped for the thing signified: Christs passion is iniured, by affirming the Masse to purge sinnes, and there are manifold superstitions, and trifling fondnes in the same.
Anto.
It is a great crime to seperate from the Communion or fellowship of the Church and make a Schisme: you hated the Anabaptists, and impugned them: This was the errour of Nouatus, and of the heretickes called (Catheri) that they would not communicate with the Church,
Rid.
I take not the Masse for the Communion of the Church, but for a popish deuice, whereby the institution for the remembrance of his death is eluded▪ & the people of God deluded: The sect of the Anabaptists, & the heresie of Nouatus are to be condemned, they separat themselues from the Communion without any …ust cause, for they did not alledge that the Sacraments were vnduely ministred, but alwaies reprouing something, either in the Ministers, or in the communicants with them: for the which they abstained from the Communion, as from an vnholy thing.
Lat.
Caluin saith, the name of peace is beautifull, and the opinion of vnitie is fayre: But Saint Paul when he requireth vnity he …oynes strait with all, according to Iesus Christ, and no further Piotrephes, now of late did much harpe vponupon vnity, vnity, Yea Sir (quoth I) in verity, and not in popery.
Anto:
Admit there bee somewhat in the Masse that might be amended: Cyprian and Augustine say, Communion of Sacraments doth not de…le a man, but consent of deeds.
Rid.
If it were a trifling ceremonie, or indifferent, for the continuance of common quietnes, I could be content to beare it: But the Masse tendeth openly to the ouerthrow of Christs institution, I ought by no meanes in word or deed consent thereto: That of the Fathers, is ment of them that suppose they be defiled, if any secret vice be either in the Ministers, or in the Communicants with them, and is not ment of them which abhor Superstition, and wicked traditions of men, and will not suffer them to be in steede of the Gospell.
Lat.
The Mary bones of the Masse are detestable, and by no meanes to be borne with all, it cannot be amended, but by abolishing it for euer, for if you take away …blation, and adoration, which hang vponupon Consecration, and transubstantiation, the Papists will not set a button by the Masse, onelyonly for the gaine that followeth therin, for if our English Communion were a gainefull vntounto them, as the Masse, they would striue no more for the Masse.
Anto:
If you refuse to goe to Masse, you forsake the Church, for the Masse is the Sacrament of vnitie: without the Arke there is no saluation, the Church is the Arke, and Peters ship: Augustine saith, he shall not hauehave God his Father, which acknowledgeth not the Church his mother: And he also saith, be thy life neuer so well spent out of the Church, thou shalt not inherit the Kingdome of heauen.
Ridley.
The Catholick Church is the Communion of Saints, the Citie of GOD, the spouse of Christ, the body of Christ, the pillar of truth, this Church I honour in the Lord, but the rule of this Church, is the word of God: as many as walke according to this rule, peace bee vponupon them and vponupon Israel that pertaineth to God: the guide of this Church is the Holy Ghost: the marks of this Church are these: The preaching of Gods word, & due administration of the Sacraments: Charitie and obseruing of Ecclesiasticall Discipline, according to the word of God; these are the heauenly Ierusalem, which consisteth of those which are borne aboue: This is the mother of vsus all, I will liue and die the child of this Church, forth of this there is no saluation, it is onelyonly knowne by the Scriptures which is the true Church: indeed the bread which we breake according to the institution of Christ is the Sacrament of the vnity of Christs mysticall body, for we being many are one bread and one body, because we are partakers of one bread, but in the Masse the Lords institution is not obserued: for there we are not all partakers of one bread, but one deuoureth it all.
Lat:
Yea, what fellowship hath Christ with Antichrist; it is not lawful to beare the yoke with Papists; Seperat your selues from them, saith the Lord, it is one thing to be the Church indéed, and another thing to counterfet the Church: not all that he couered with the Title of the Church are the Church indéed: When S. Paul saith, Seperate your selues from them: He addeth, if any man follow other doctrine, he is puffed vp and knoweth nothing: For it is ignorance to know many things and not Christ, but if thou knowest Christ thou knowest enough, though thou know no more: Therefore he would know nothing but Christ and him crucified, as many as be Papists and Masse-mongers, may well bee said to know nothing; for they know not Christ, they take much away from the merite of Christ.
Anto.
That Church which you describe is inuisible, but Christs Church is visible and knowne: For hee saith, tell it to the Church, which is in vaine to goe to the Church, if a man cannot tell which it is.
Rid.
If we cannot see the true Church, that is not the fault of the Church, but either of our owne blindnes, or of Satans darknes, but the word is a Candle vntounto vsus, and a light vntounto our steps to sh…w the true Church.
Anto.
The Church of Christ is vniuersall dispersed through the whole world, the great house of GOD good and euill mingled together: Goates & Shéepe, Corne and Chaffe; it is the net which gathereth all kinde of Fishes: it cannot erre, for CHRIST IESVS hath promised it his good Spirit, to leade it in all truth, and the gates of Hell shall not preuaile against it, he will be with it to the end of the world: What it shall binde or lose in earth shall bee ratified in Heauen, it is the truth: Augustine saith, I beleeue the Gospell, because the Church biddeth me beleeue it: this Church alloweth the Masse, therefore it must be followed.
RidI.
The Church is taken three manner of waies in the Scripture: sometime for the whole multitude of the professors of Christ, but as eueryevery one is not a Iew which is a Iew outwardly: nor all that be of Israel, are counted the seede: So eueryevery one that is a Christian outwardly is not so indeede: For hee that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his. The Church that Christ Iesus is head of stands onelyonly of liuing Stones: Christians in heart and truth, and not in worde onelyonly: The multitude of the good are the true Church, the multitude of the euill is the malignant Church, and Synagogue of Satan: These be the three takings of the Church: and though there be seldom mention in Scriptures in this interpretation, y…t in the greatest assemblies of the world, this Church hath borne the greatest swing.
But▪ if any will affirme, that vniuersalitie doth so appertaine vntounto the church, that Christs promises to the Church must needes bee vnderstood of that; where was that vniuersall Church, in the times of the Patriarks, and Prophets: Of Noah, Abraham, and Moses, (when they would hauehave stoned him) of Helias, of Ieremy, in the times of Christ, and the dispersion of the Apostles in the time of Arius When Constantius was Emperour, …and Felix Bishop of Rome succeeded Lyberius, Lyra vponupon Mathew saith, the Church doth not stand in men by reason of their power and dignitie, whether it be Ecclesiasticall or Seculer, for Princes and Popes and other inferiours hauehave fallen away from GOD: Therefore the Church consisteth in those persons in whom is true knowledge, and Confession of the Faith, and truth: euill men are in the Church in name, but not in deed.
Latimer.
Touching the vehement saying of Saint Augustine: I would not beleeue the Gospel, but for the Church. Melancton vponupon this saith, the Church is not a Iudge, but a witnes, there were some that lightly esteemed the Iudgement of the Church, and preaching, and reiected the outward word, and stucke onelyonly to there inward reuelations: This droue Saint Augustine into that vehemencie, in which he seemeth to them that vnderstand not his meaning, to prefer the Church before the Gospel, and that it had authoritie ouer the same, but that godly man neuer thought so.
Anto:
Generall Councels represent the vniuerfall Church: and Christ hath promised to be in the middest, where two or three be gathered together in his name: Therefore much more where there is so great a multitude, but in generall Councels Masse hath been approued and vsed, therefore it is good.
Ridley.
It is true, that where so many be gathered together in Christs name, it is not credible, but two or three be gathered together in his name, but if there be an hundreth good, & two h…ndreth bad, being the Decrees & Ordinances goe according to most voices, what can the lesse number of voices preuaile: It is a common prouerbe, often the greater part ouercommeth the better: but it is impossible that any such Councell of good men allowed such a Masse as ours was of late, in a strange tongue, and stuffed with so many absurdities, errors, and superstitions: for as there is no agreement betwixt light and darknes, Christ and Beliall: so superstition and sincere religion, will-worship, and pure worship in spirit and truth, can neuer agree together.
Latimer.
Touching generall Councels, I refer you to your owne experience in our Parliaments, and Conuocations: the most part in my time did bring forth the six Articles, because then the King would so hauehave it: After the most part did repeale the same, because our good Iosias would so hauehave it: The same Articles now again the most part hath restored, because the Queene will hauehave it; after this sort most commonly are mens proceedings.
Anto.
If in generall Councels men should not folow most vo…ces, then should the church hauehave no certaine rule to determin waighty matters, but it is not to be beléeued that Christ would leaue the Church destitute of so necessary a help.
Rid.
Christ the most louing spouse of his espouse the Church, did giuegive vntounto it abundantly all things necessary to saluation, but so that the Church should kéep her selfe within the obedience of his commandements, and not to séek any thing as necessary to saluation which he teacheth not: and for determination of all controuersies in Religion, Christ hath left vntounto the Church▪ Moses, and the Prophets, which he willeth the church to aske councell of, and all the New Testament, & that which is hard in Moses and the Prophets, is reuealed in them: so that wee hauehave no need to say, who shall clime vp to heauen, or who shall goe downe into the deepe to tell vsus what is needfull to be done: Christ hath done both, and commanded … … the word of Faith; and if we walke diligently therein, by his spirit we shall … out the truth▪ and obtaine euerlasting life: As in Esay 8. Shall men-aske … of the dead for the liuing? Let them goe vntounto the Law & the Testament: … Christ Ioh. 5. biddeth vsus Search the Scriptures: And Hierom saith, Ignorance … scriptures is mother of errors vponupon the 25. of Mathew, and in another place he saith the knowledge of the scriptures is the food of euerlasting life, and we read not that Christ in any place hath …aid so great a burden vponupon the members of his Church that he hath commanded them to go vntounto the vniuersal Church: it is true that Christ gaue vntounto his Church some Apostles, and some Prophets, some Euangelists, some Shepheards and Teachers to the edifying of the Saints, vntill we all come vntounto the vnity of Faith. But that all, out of all parts of the world, should méet together in Councell, to define the Articles of faith, it is not commanded of Christ.
Lat.
There is diuersitie betwixt things pertaining to God or Faith, and politick and ciuill matters: for in the first we must stand only to the scriptures, which are able to make vsus perfect vntounto saluation: if by study and prayer we vnderstand them, and the most prudent men of the world are least apt to vnderstand them: but in ciuill matters being wee know not otherwise how to maintaine common peace and quiet, they doe ordaine that the most part shall take place.
Anto.
It is perilous to attempt any new thing in the Church, vntounto which the example of the Prophets, of Christ, and of the Apostles, are contrarie: for in their time all things were most corrupt, the people were miserably giuen to superstition, the Priests despised the law of God, yet we neuer read that the Prophets made any schismes, and Christ haunted the Temples and taught in them daily, Peter and Iohn went into the Temple at the ninth houre of prayer, Paule after the reading of the law desired to say some thing vntounto the people: neyther Christ nor his Apostles did refuse to pray with others, to sacrifice or be partaker of Moses law.
Ridley.
The Prophets, Christ, nor the Apostles did not communicate with the people in any kind of worshipping forbidden by the law, or repugmant to the word. Saint Aug…stine in his Epistle Ad Ianuarium, speaking of the ceremonies of the Iewes, he saith, They were burdens of the law which were deliuered by the word of God, and not by the presumptions of men; but now the ceremonies are of men, and contrary to the word of God, and therefore not to be borne. In the story of Tobias, when all other went to the golden calues of Ieroboam to worship, hee alone went to the Temple of the Lord to worship In the third of Kings the man of God threatned terrible plagues to the Priest of Bethell, and to the Altar which Ieroboam had made, which came to passe by King Iosias. The Prophets vehemently rebuked the people still for going a whoreing with their Hill-Altars: and this was the chiefe cause wherefore the false Prophets ceased not to maligne the true Prophets, therefore they beate them, and banished them. How otherwise can you vnderstand the saying of S. Paul, What concord hath Christ with Beliall, the beleeuer with the Infidel, & the temple of God with Idols: for we are said to be Gods temple because God dwelleth in vsus: wherfore we are bidden to come out & seperat our selues from them, and to touch no vncleane thing, and God will receiue vsus and be our Father, and we shall be his Sonnes and Daughters. In the 12. of Iudith, she would not defile her selfe with the meats of the wicked. The Machabees died manfully in the defence of the Law: S. Augustine saith, If we praise the Machabees for their stoutnesse for the Law of Moses, how much more ought we to suffer all things for our baptisme and the Lords supper, which the Masse vtterly abolisheth and corrupteth.
Anto.
I perceiue you are so obstinatly wedded vntounto your owne opinion, that no wholsome counsels can draw you to a better mind, therefore you must be handled by the lawes, and be either compelled thereto, or suffer the punishment of the Law: he that refuseth to obey the lawes of the realme, is an enemy to his Country. This is the readiest way to stir vp ciuill wars, it is better you should beare your owne …nne, then the common quiet to bee disturbed: how can you say you will bee the Quéenes subiects, when you openly professe you will not kéepe her lawes.
Ridl.
It is true, he that will not obey the Gospell, must be forced thereto by the law, but this ought not to be against them which cannot bear superstitions, nor the ouerthrow of Christs institutions, but detesteth such procéedings for the glorie of God, and they that louelove their Country in God, will rather obey God then man, & they that obey mans lawes against Gods lawes, in pretence of the louelove of their countrey, they make their countrey fight against God, in whom consisteth, the very stay of the countrey: such are the most deadly eeemies and traytors of their countrey, for they goe about to bring vponupon the…r countrey a present ru…e. Sathan had euer this dart in readines to hurle against Gods children, so accuse them of sodition that he may bring them in danger of the higher powers, so he hath vp his ministers alwayes charged the Prophets: Acab said to Elias, Thou art he that troubleth Israel, and the false Prophets complained to their Princes of Ieremy, that his wordes were seditious and not to be suffered▪ the Scribes and Pharises accused Christ as a seditious person, that spake against Caesar, and at length …ryed, If thou let him goe thou art not Caesars friend: Tertullian accused Paule before Felix, that he was a pestilent fellow and a stirrer of sedition. But these men were not so, but of false men falsly accused, onelyonly because they openly reproued their guiles, superstitions and deceits.
A man ought to obey his Prince, but in the Lord, and neuer against the law of the Lord: for he that louingly obeyeth his Prince against God, is a deceiuer of his Prince, and helpeth him to worke his owne destruction: wee must giuegive vntounto the Prince that which is his, and vntounto God that which is his. Valentinianus the Emperour chusing the Bishop of Millan, said, He set him in his seat for this cause, that if we doe offend we may submit our selues vntounto him. Polycarpus the most constant Martyr, when he …ood before the chiefe Ruler, was commaunded to blasph…me Christ, and to sweare by the fortune of Caesar; we are taught (quoth he) to giuegive honour vntounto Princes, but such honour as is not contrary to Gods Religion.