An Answer to Blasphemous Cavillations by an Anabaptist, Section 5 – Section 6
THE ADERARIE.
To proue this similitude good and to shew how much his louelove towardes his children excedeth the louelove of all creatures towardes their birt…es he saieth:The fyft section. Can a woman forget the childe of her wombe, ād not pitie the same whom she hath borne? And thogh she do forget it,Isaia. 45. yet I will not forget the. Here he speaketh not onelyonly to the elect (as some say) but also to them which did for sake and dispyse him as there.Isaia. 30. Alas for these disobedient children (saieth the Lord) that they will take counsell without me. Here he calleth the wicked which heape sinne vponupon sinne▪ and were disobedient, his chiidren.Matt. 7. Christ saieth, If ye when ye are euill cā giuegive your children good giftes, how mmch more your heauenlie father? After the same manner may I reason with you (carelesse by necessitie) if none of you thogh ye be euill, wold beget a child to miserie how much les wold God which is all good beget and creat man his own image to perpetual paynes? Here we may se how much this noghtie opinion is cōtrarie to nature and to reason. and that it is cōtrarie to the worde, God willing I will proue. If God hath ordeyned the most part of the world to be damned, then were his wrath greater thē his merciemercy. But the scripture witnesseth that his merciemercy is ouer all his workes,Psal. 144 and that God is slow vntounto wrath and redie vntounto merciemercy, so that his wrath is extended onelyonly to the third and fourth generation, but his merciemercy to the thousand generatiō wherefor thus (saieth he):Esaia. 54 A litle whil I hauehave forsaken thee, but with greate mercifulnes shall I take thee vp vntounto me. Wh…n I was angrie I hid my face from the for a litle ceason but throughe euerlasting merciemercy hauehave I pardoned thee. And Dauid saieth,Psal. 29. his wrath indureth but the twinkling of an, eie and his pleasure is in life. heuines may well endure for a night, But ioy cometh in the morning. And so Moises called him a mercifull and gracious God, long suffring, and keping merciemercy in store for thousandes. By these scriptures and many mo, it is euident, that gods merciemercy is greater then his wrath, contrarie to their sainges.
ANSWER.
How blasphemous be your similitudes, your selue may consider, if malice hauehave not vtterly blinded you, for I hauehave all redie proued that God is not bound to the lawes and boundes of nature, and how shamefully ye do abuse the scriptures which ye alledge, fewe wordes shall declare. Ye deny, that God doeth speake here to his elect in the place of isaiah the Prophete,Isaiah. 49 but to all mē in generall: and euen to those that had forsaken him, as ye wold seme to proue by the wordes of the same Prophete spoken …efore in his thirtie chapiter.Isaiah. 30 First (I say) that those two places do no more agree, then do those wordes of Christ spoken after his resurrection: Go to my brethren and tell them: I passe vp to my father, and vntounto your father, and vntounto my God and vntounto your God, and those which he spake before his death, against Capernaum, Bethsaida, and Corosaim, or vntounto Ierusalem against whom he pronounced woo and malediction, becaus they did not know the tyme of their visitatiō. For in the former place God speaketh to Syon which long had bene waist and to his people, which long had bene oppressed. And to the end that the reader may better vnderstand how deceitfully ye withdraw and steall the wordes which explain the hole mater, I will bring furth the wordes of the Prophete.Is…ia. 49 Reioise (saieth he) … heauens: and reioce thow earth … you mountanes brest you furth in gladnes, for the eternall hath conforted his people and shall hauehave merciemercy vponupon his poore ones. Syon hath said, the Lord hath left me and my Lord hath forgotten me, May a woman forgett her child that she shall not hauehave compassion vponupon the sonne of hir bosome, but let it be that they forget (neuertheles I shall not forget the, for lo in these my two handes hauehave I engrafted the, and thy walles are for euer before me. If these cōfortable wordes were spoken in generall to all men (as ye affirme) let indifferent men iudge: If all men were Sion, that long had lyen desolate, if all were his people that lōg had bene oppressed in the captiuitie of Babylon: If all did so complaine, that they thoght God to hauehave forgotten his league and promes, which of merciemercy he made with them: And finally, if all hauehave this promise, that their deliuerāce is ioined with gods infinite power, thē is your application, to be approued, but if God did make a plaine difference betwext Israel and all nations in the earth, if he had chosen his habitation in Syon, and if he will kepe promes with the afflicted for his own names sake, be they neuer so vnworthie, then are ye to bolde to giuegive the honor and prerogatiue of the children and heires, to strāgers ād bastardes. The wordes which ye alledge of the thirtie chapter make nothīg for your purpose: for albeit he speaketh to those that were inobediēt, yea that were treasonable traitours, yet had they the name, the title, yea the honour ād dignitie of gods people, and among them, were som of gods chosen children: for whose comfort (after long affliction susteined in Babylon) were those other wordes spoken And so except that ye be able to proue that the people of Israel and the citie of Ierusalem had no greater prerogatiue euen in the time of their greatest blindnes and vnthankfulnes (before the comming of Christ Iesus in the fleshe) then had other nations, ye conclude nothing. But yet wonder it is, that ye can make no difference betwext the tymes, in which the one, wordes and the other were spoken. The wo was pronoūced (you say alas which the text hath not) against them, what tyme they had declined from God, when they toke counsel of them selues when they could not abide the admonitions of the Prophetes: but the comfortable promes of delyuerāce was made, after that vengeance was powred furth vponupon the proude contemners, and after that the hole bodie was sore tormē ted by great oppression and long impresonement. Do ye not thinke that their might be great alteratiō in that people within the space of an hundreth yeres? for so long was it betwext the daies of the Prophete and the daies of their last captiuitie vnderunder Nabucadnezer, after which tyme also did this former promes of gods remembrance of thē onelyonly take place. Might not the one …e spoken of those which should be punished (yea let it be that they were the reprobate) and the other to the people of God, to whom by his own holines he had promised deliuerance? Do ye thinke that because the same Prophet speaketh both… the sentences, that therefor they do appertein to one estate ād condition of people? I hauehave proued the contrary by Christes plain wordes. For his mouth pronounced destruction against Ierusalem, and yet sendeth he the ioyfull tydings of his resurrection to his disciples with that most singuler cōfort that God remained vntounto them both God, ād father: and euē so doeth our Prophet Isaiah: for in the o…e place he speaketh to the obstinate contemners, but in the other place he speaketh to the afflicted children. Wey I besech you the scriptures of God with greater reuerence. The wordes of Christ ye likewies falsifie.Matt. 7. for he speaketh not of any common louelove which he beareth to all mē, but affirmeth,Luc. 11. that our heauēlie Father geueth good thinges, or as Lucas affirmeth, giueth the holie Gost to such as aske of him. Ye must proue first, that all aske in faith, and according to his will (which be the peculiar prerogatiues of the childrē of God) before that Christes wordes can serue for your generall multitude, either yet that you shall thereof be able to proue that God loueth all men a like.
Ye take your pleasure in reasoning with vsus, whom ye terme Careles by necessitie. I will not recompence raling with raling, but I pray God that thow (the writer of this book) shew hereafter greater diligence in godlynes, then of many daies thow hast done where so euer thow hast hanted. We vse not to subiect God to our corrupt affections, but with reuerence and fear we leaue to his godlie wisdom the ordering of his creatures, neither yet can you be able to proue, that we either by word or writing hauehave affirmed, that the principall end of any mānes creation was perpetuall paine. But we affirme, as before we hauehave declared, that God for him self and for the manifestation of his own glorie hath created all thinges. But of this we must after more largely speake.
The finall conclusion which ye collecte of nature, is that God hath created none to miserie nor pain.The blasphemy of Anabaptistes. For that your master Castalio feareth not most blasphemously to affirme, sayīg, yt if he hath so done, he is more crewell thē any wolfe. O heauen and earth reuenge this blasphemie.
That man which here suffereth miserie and much clamitie, yea and that also shalbe adiuged to the fyre inextīguible, is created of God, or (as you affirme) is the birth of God: I suppose your selues will not deny. And that he suffereth all miseries; by gods iust iudgementes, and by his will expressed in his worde, the scripture b…areth record. For God saieth to the woman, in sorow and dolor shalt thou beare thy children. To the man: In the sweate of thy face shalt thow eate thy bread, and also: cursed is the earth for thy sake.… 3. Which (and many mo places) plainely witnes, that God hath inflicted pain vponupon man whom he hath created. You answere: That did God for the sin of man, I confesse: But yet is your foot fast in the snare. For after sin, man ceased not to be the creature, & (as ye will terme him) the birth of God If thē God; be subiect to the law of nature (as before we hauehave said) and now agane repete, that your vanitie and ignorance may the more appere, so that he is boūde to do the self same thing to his birthes, that nature moueth vsus to doto our childrē. I ask first why did God suffer man created to his own image to fall in to sin? assuredly no naturall father will wittingly and willingly suffer his children to fall into apit or dongeon to destruction. And secondarely I aske, why did not God (who is omnipotent, hauing all wisdom and goodnes) prouyde an other medicine for man, then by death to ouercom so many miseries? Thirdly if God wold that none shoulde be borne to miserie, why did he not clearly purge the nature of Adam? why did he not stay that venom and corruption in our first father, why did he permitt it to infect all his posteritie? There is no shift that here can serue you. For if you say, God was prouoked by the sinnes of the posteritie, which he did forese to be in them, so to do: I answer, that he foresaw nothing, which his eternall and infinit power might not hauehave remoued ād remedied, if so had pleased his godlie wisedom: for then as now, was he the God. who alone may do what so euer he will in heauen and in earth. And further I say, that the foūtain being shet vp, the flowing of sin by naturall propagation should hauehave ceased. To gods permission we shall after answer. To put end to his mater, if ye cōsider nothing els in the great varietie of gods workes but the onelyonly miserie of the sufferer, ād sin which (we denie not to be a cause of the same) ye hauehave no better profit…d in the schoole of Christ, then had the disciples, whē seing him that was born blind, they demanded this question, Master (say they) who hath sinned, whether this mā or his parentes? that he should be born blind? No other cause did they se of his miserie but sin. And to thē it was strāge that any man could sin so greuously before he was borne, that for the same he should be punished with perpetuall blindnes during his life. And that he should suffer such miserie for the offences of his Parentes, appered to them to repugne to gods iustice, and to that sentence which before he had pronounced by the Prophete Ezechiel affirming, that the son should not beare the iniquitie of the father. But Christe Iesus in correcting their error, giueth to you a profitable lesson if ye can receaue it: affirming, that neither he, neither yet his Parents had sinned that so he should be borne, but that the glorie of God should be manifested in him. If gods glorie be declared and made manifest euen by the miseries which som creatures sustein: Dare you therefor accuse God of creweltie? Consider your bold foolishnes, and repent your blasphemies before that vengeance strike.
After that ye hauehave concluded as you thinke, our opinion to be naughtie, by arguments drawen from nature, you make a bold promes to proue the same by plain scriptutes: And yet your first entrance is but by a reason not well grounded vponupon these scriptures which ye alledge. Thus ye write: If God hath ordeined the most part of the world to perdition then were his wrath greater then his merciemercy, but the scripture witnesseth that his merciemercy is ouer all his creatures. Ergó (will ye conclude) He hath not created the most part of the world to perdition. To proue that gods merciemercy is greater then his wrath, ye bring furth the wordes of Dauid. Psal. 30. & 45. Isaiah. 54. and of God him self proclaming his own name vntounto Moises: for these wordes are not the wordes of Moises (as ye alledge) but were spoken by God him self in the eares of Moises.
To the Maior I hauehave answered before, that falsly ye burden vsus, that we affirme that God hath ordeined ye most parte of the world to perdition: for we presume not to define what nomber God shall saue, and how many he shall iustly condemne, but with reuerence we do referre iudgemēt to him, who is the vniuersall creator, whose goodnes and wisdom is such that he can do nothing but wisely, and whose iustice is so perfect, that his workes are exēpted frō the iudgement of all creatures. But the second part affirmyng that if God condemne mo then he shall saue, that then his wraith is greater then his merciemercy, is so irreuerēt, so bold, and blasphemous, yt scarsly coulde I hauehave thoght, yt ye deuill him self could hauehave imagined a more manifest blasphemie. Who hath giuen the balance into thy hādes? (I speak to the most blasphemous writer) to pōder ād wey gods merciemercy, and wraith after thy corrupt iudgement? if thow claimest the helpe of these former scriptures they proue no more that which thow pretendest, then if thow shouldest affirm that God shall saue the deuill, because his merciemercy is aboue all his creatures. We do not deny but yt ye most wicked men are participant of gods merciemercy in temporall felicitie (yea and yt farre aboue his chosen childrē) that he maketh his son to shyne vpō the good ād bad, that with long suffering he calleth them to repentance and delaieth their most iust cōdemnation. But what wilt thow hereof cōclude, that God hath ordeined mo to saluatiō, thē to perdition? orels is his wraith greater thē his merciemercy? Blasphemous mouth, who hath taught the to appoint a law to God? The day shall come (if spedelie thow repent not) yt thow shalt fele what punishmēt is due to such as go aboute to bring the eternal God and his incōprehensible iudgemēts vnderunder ye thraldō of their corrupt reason. But leauing thee, I return to those, whō gladly I wold īstruct, ād to thē I say: that the wordes of Dauid and of Isaiah do speake of that rich and inestimable merciemercy, which God laieth vp in store for his chosen children: to whom althogh God somtymes shew him self seuere and angry, yet indureth that but for a short, space, but his merciemercy is euerlastīg, ād his goodnes infinit, by the which he marieth his chosen children to him self for euer, and whether that these wordes be onelyonly spoken to the elect, orels that they be generally spoken to all, let the holie Gost decyde the controuersie.Psal. 145 After that Dauid hath affirmed that God is liberall mercifull, patiēt and of great gentilnes, and also that he is good to all, and that his merciemercy is ouer all his workes, that the eies of all creatures look vponupon him, and that he is iust in all his workes: by which sentences he praiseth the goodnes, the merciemercy, and the prouidence of God in the regiment & gouernement of his vniuersall creation, which goodnes ād merciemercy do so abounde, that the innumerable iniquities of mā kind and his detestable ingratitude cā not vtterly hinder the same from the creatures. After these cōmon mercies (I say) whereof the reprobate are oftē partakers, he openeth the treasure of his riche mercies which are kept in Christ Iesus for his elect: Saing, the Lord is nigh to all that vponupon him, to all that call vponupon him in veritie: he doeth the will of those that fear him, and he heareth their crie, and saueth, thē. The Lord kepeth all those that louelove hī, but he destroieth all the wicked.Note the plain difference. such as willingly delite not in blīdnes, may clerely se, that the holie Gost maketh a plaine differēce betwext the graces and mercies which be cō mō to all, and that soueraign merciemercy which is immutably reserued to the chosen children, and further that the Lord himself shall destroy the wicked, albeit his merciemercy be ouer all his workes. And so that merciemercy by the which God pronoūceth to gather his Church is euerlastīg, ād is not cōdmō to ye reprobate, but is onelyonly proper to ye flocke of Christ Iesus. The wordes of God spoken vntounto Moises do no more serue your purpose then do the other.Exod. 20. For God in his law expressedly doeth witnes to whom it is that he will shew merciemercy to thousandes, to witt to those that louelove him, and kepe his commandements, and vponupon whom will he prosecute the iniquitie vntounto the third and fourth generatiō vpō those (saieth he) yt hate me. If here of ye cōclude yt his merciemercy towardes all is greater then his wraith ye conclude amis. For ye confound those whom God hath separated and deuided, he promiseth merciemercy to the thousand generation of those that louelove him and threatneth to punishe the iniquitie of the fathers to the third and fourthe generation vponupon those that hate him. Hereof iustly ye can no further cōclude, but that the merciemercy of God is greater towardes those that louelove him, thē his wraith against those that hate him. And so far will we confes with you. but if you abide in your error, concluding as you plainely do in this your booke, that the wrathe of God must be greater then his merciemercy except that he saue mo then shall be cōdemned (as som of your sectes hath lately affirmed) we fear not to affirme that your blasphemie is intollerable. Or if you think (as some alledge vponupon Origene that) becaus gods merciemercy is infinit and extendeth vntounto all his workes, that therefor the reprobate can not but once obtein merciemercy. The plain scripture cōuicteth you. For it affirmeth, that the wraith of God abydeth vpō the vnfaithfull, that their fyre shall not be quenched, and that their worme shall not die. If ye shall vnderstand that the elect hath nothing which they receaue not of merciemercy, and that the punishment of the reprobate is most iustly deserued,Howgods mercy is greater then his wrath. you shall not mesure gods merciemercy and his wraith by the multitude nor by the nombre, but ye oght to consider that where none is worthie of gods mercies by their own merits, yet hath it continued from the beginning and shal cōtinue vntounto the end, euer extending the self to gods children being in miserie. and so this merciemercy must far surmount all wraith and iudgement: for where the wraith of God once kindled against sinne oght to hauehave consumed and deuoured all, merciemercy preualeth, and delyuereth those that iustly might hauehave bene condemned. And in this sense (say we) that gods merciemercy far surmounteth his iudgementes, which interpretation if you admit not, we will send you to reason with God, and to impugne the same, if you be able by manifest scriptures. Now to the rest.
THE ADVERSARIE.
Of all sortes and Sectes of men,The six te sectiō I hauehave iudged them to be most abhorred which are called Athei that is to say, such as denie that there is any God. But now me think these carelesse men are much more to be abhorred, my reason is because they be more iniurious to God then the (Athey) for he is les iniurious to a man that beleueth that he is not, then they he which calleth him a cruel mā a tyrant, and an vniust person, so are they les iniurious to God which beleue that he is not, then they which say he is vnmercifull, cruell, and an oppressor. Now what greater crueltie, tyrannie, and oppressiō can be, then to creat the most parte of the world to euerlasting damnation, so that by no maner of mean they can escaip, and auoid the cruell decre and sentence against thē. Seing the Philosopher Plato iudged them vnworthie to liue, and to be suffered in any commō welth which spake euill of God, what oght our iudgements to be of such men which hauehave so wicked and opinion of God? what so euer our iudgement be of them, and what so euer their deseruing be, let vsus labore rather to win them then to lose them. But forasmuch as he which toucheth pitche is in danger to be defiled there with. Therefor oght we to walk warely with such men, that we be not defyled and infected of them. Specially seing that now a daies this horrible doctrine doeth freate euen as the disease of a cankar which infecte from one membre to an other vntill it hath occupied the hole bodie without it be cut away, euen so this error hath alredie infected from one to an other a greate nombre. The lord grante them the true meaning and vnderstanding of his worde, whereby they may be healed, and the sicknes cut of, the membre being saued.
ANSWER.
Becaus that in all this your long discourse,To the 1. ye more shew your malice (which vniustly against vsus ye hauehave conceaued) then yt either ye oppugne our beleif, either yet promote your fals opinion. I will not spend the tyme to recompence your dispite. OnelyOnly this I will offer in the name of all may brethren,To the 2. 3. 4. & 5. that if you be able in presence of a lawfull iudge and magistrate euidently to cōuict vsus, yt either we speak euill of God, either yet yt by our writinges, preaching or reasoning, it iustly can be proued that our opinion is euill, of his eternall maiestie, power, wisdom, and goodnes, that then we refuse not to suffer the same punishment which you by the auctoritie of Plato iudge vsus worthy of. Yea we further offer our selues willingly to vnderlie the verey death which God by his law hath appointed to all blasphemers prouided that you refuse not to vnderlie the same penaltie,Deut. 19. if falsly ye accuse vsus. What is your studies to win vsus,To the 6. and whether our doctrine be horrible error or not, I do not now dispute. Thus you reason.