An Answer to Blasphemous Cavillations by an Anabaptist, Section 24

An Answer to Blasphemous Cavillations by an Anabaptist · Section 24

p. 174THE ADVERSARIE.

As for the sentence of Paule:The twētie & foure Section. God willing to shew his wrathe, to make his power knowen suffered with long pacience, the vesselles of wrath ordeined to damnation, &c. it is direct contrarie to your error not withstanding ye abuse it to maintein the same. For seing as Paul saieth, God suffered them with greate paciēce, he is sorie for them: if he be sorie, thē hath he no pleasure in their destructiō:The seuēth argument. ād that wherein he hath no pleasure, he willeth it not and that w^c he willeth not, he doth not ordein it. Wherefor seing God suffered thē with greate paciēce to fall, he hath not ordeined 1thē to fall: yⁿ dispisest, saieth S. Paule, y^e riches of gods goodnes ād patiēce ādlōg sufferāce, not knowing that y^e kindnes of God leadeth the to repētāce. behold here the cause why God suffered with 2long pacience, is that we should repent and amend. If they had ben absolutely ordeined to damnation afore the foundation of the world▪ then God knew they should neuer repent, and amend. to 3what purpose then suffered he them with lōg pacience? Notwith standing this is plaine ynowgh▪ ād conform to the word▪ yet ye dispising what so euer is contrarie to your mynd, ye stik fast to the literall sense of th…se wordes, ordeined to damnation, which wordes be spoken after the common maner of speaking, as they be called after the common phrase of speach, ordeined to damnatiō, whose end is damnation, we vse to say of a man that is cast to p. 175be hanged, this man was born to be hanged, not with standing it was not his mothers mynd to beare him to be hāged. Such phrases hauehave we verey many in the scriptures, as Exod. 11 Pharao harkened not vntounto you that many wonders may be done in the land of Egipt.Exod. 11.Exod 11 forasmuch as the wonders done in Egipt were greuous to Pharao, he did not disobey the intent that mo wonders which were plagues should com vponupon him,None of these phrasis be lyke if they bewayed. but this was the issue of his obstinat inobedienco. Exod. the XIX who so euer giueth his sede vntounto Moloch, let him be slayn, because he hath geuen of his sede vntounto Moloch to defyle my Sanctuarie and to pollute my holie Name. The Israelites did not sacrifice their children to Moloch to defyle the lordes sanctuarie and to dishonor the Name of God, but to worship Moloch, notwithstanding that was the issue and end of their sacrifice vntounto Moloch, that the Lordes sanctuarie was defiled and his Name dishonored. Thereby Ieroboam made the two golden claues wherby he made Israel sinne to anger the Lord God of Israel. The cause why Ieroboam made the two golden claues and his intention was not to anger God: but he thoght that if the people should go vp ād do sacrifice in the howse of the Lorde at Ierusalē there heartes shulde return to Roboam king of Iuda wherefor he made two golden calues to make the people sacrifice at Bethel,Osee. 8Hos 8 wherupon followed the wrath of God. Of their siluer and gold hauehave they made them images to bring themselues to destruction, The Israelites made them images thinking thereby to be saued and not destroied: yet their destruction followed thereof. Ieremie saieth Omy mother, alas that euer thow diddest beare me to be a brawler,Ierem. 13Jer 13 ād a rebuker of the hole land. Ieremies mother did not bear him to that intent, but yet this was the end. And in the new Testament, if any man hunger, lett him eat at home, that ye com not togither to condēnation: the Corinthians came not togither to the intent to purchesse thereby condemnatio…, but of their abuses in comming togither followed their condemnation. By these places and many others, we may vnderstand the phrase of scriptures: That they be ordeined to damnation whose end is condemnation, which they receaue not by the will of God, which wold all men to be saued, but as a iust reward for their sinnes. As the traitor which suffereth oght not to impute his death to the sentence which the p. 176iudge iustly hath giuen against him, but to his own offence and treason, so when we for our sinnes be ordeined to punishement, we oght not to impute it to gods fore ordināce which is both good and full of merciemercy,Ierem. 15. 9Jer 15:9 but to our own offences. And seing (as S. Paul saieth, God suffered them with greate pacience, their damnation cometh not by the counsell and will of God, for which he is sorie as he saieth by the prophete Ieremie. I hauehave bene sorie for the so long that I am werie. will ye say that God werieth him self, suffering ād sorowing for them, whom he had reprobated afore the world surelie I think that thoghe ye hitherto hauehave vnaduisedly said so ye will from hence furthe say so no more, which God grāte in tyme that ye werie not the lord also with sorowing for you.

ANSWER.

As your cogitatiōs of God be grosse and carnall, so be your iudgemētes in this place of scripture deceuable and most erroneouse. Esteme it no iniurie, that I affirm your cogitations of God to be carnall ād grosse. For I can euidently proue, that som of you affirm and maintein, that God hath eies, fete, handes, armes, and finally all proportion of man: that he slepeth and doth againe awake, that he forgetteth and after doth remember, that he is mutable, and doth in verie dede repent.

If these cogitations of the e…ernall God be not carnall: yea if they be not wicked, ād deuelish, let the godly indifferent reader iudge,

In this your long gradation,Answer … the …. which ye make vponupon the wordes of Paule, ye cōclud contradiction to the holie Gost, and to the plaine wordes of the Apostle. For the Apostle meaneth and plainely speaketh: that albeit God doth long suffer and delay the iudgement of the reprobate yet cease they not to be vesse…les of wrath, as they that are ordeined to perdi…ion. But you conclude the cō trarie affirming, that he hath not ordeined them to fal. And so because you conclude directly against the holie Gost, I can not cease to say, that your collectiō is erroneouse. But to giuegive an answer more full and large, in examining the partes of your gradatiō, I will shew your error ād the cause thereof. first you say: seing God suffered p. 177them with greate paciēce, he is sorie for them. here I say in your first foundation lieth your error, and the cause thereof is, that altogether ye are ignorāt of gods nature, in whom nether falleth such sufferance,Painfull passions fall not in God. such paciēce, nor such sorow, as you grosly imagin. God is omnipotent, and is compelled to suffer nothing, which he hath not appointed in his eternall counsell, he is a Spirit, ād fre from all such passions, as creatures be subiect vntounto. for in his eternall Godhead, there is nether pacience subiect to paine, nether yet sorowe annexed with angwishe and grief. But when such passions be attributed vntounto God, it is for the weaknes of our vnderstanding, that the holie Gost doth subiect him self in langage, and tongue to our capacitie.

Ye take libertie to your self in dyuers other phrases, to explaine them as you please, yea euen against the plaine scripture. And why will ye not permitt, that such phrases be so vnderstand, as nothing be iudged vponupon gods Maiestie, which doth not aggre, with his godlie nature? ye do far abuse the mynd of the Apostle: for he doth not inferre as you foolishly and wickedly do, that becaus God did suffer with great pacience, therefor he was sorie, but saieth, he did suffer the vesselles ordeined to destruction, that vponupon the one sort his wrath and power, and vponupon the other (that is, vponupon the elect) the riches of his glorie might be knowen. This were sufficient to put silence to your folie. But yet somwhat to instruct the simple, I will som what trauale to make these wordes of the Apostle sensible and plane.

He had before concluded: that God wold hauehave merciemercy vponupon whom he wold hauehave merciemercy, and whom it pleased him, those did he harden. As this sentence far surmounted mannes capacitie,The place of Paul explaned. so might it engender som doubtes, in the heartes of the verey godlie. For they might hauehave reasoned if that God will finally destroy all the reprobate, to what purpose are they now permitted to triumphe, and to trooble the elect of God? In answering p. 178to which doubt, the Apostle assigneth three reasons, why God with great pacience,Thre causes why God suffereth the wicked reprobate. suffereth the vesselles of wrath. To witt that his power, his wrath, and the riches of the glorie of his merciemercy more euidently may appere & be knowen. For if God should sodanly from the bellies of their mothers, take away the reprobat, or if he should in the beginning of their malice so break downe their pryde, that they could not procede against him, nether should his power appere so great, nether yet his wrathe so iust and so holie. But when he doth suffer them, as he did Pharao, from one mischief to procede to an other, often remouing his plagues, and so declaring him self easie to be entreated, euen vntounto such tyme, as their malice and raige do carie them, as it were openly to dispyse God, and his power, when then, I say, in one moment God potently doth ouer throwe the force & strēgth of his ennemies,Exod. 14 Isaiah. 37 Daniel. 5.Exod 14Isa 37Dan 5 as y^t he did of Pharao, Senacherib, Balsasar, and of others. then is his godlie power, and most iust wrathe more euidently knowen, then that he should ether hauehave repressed them in the beginning, ether yet hauehave taken them away, before their malice began to budde. For hereby doth he not onelyonly admonish others of the certen destruction of all those that continue in crueltie, but also giueth to his Churche most singulare comfort, letting them se that his prouidence, and power watcheth for them, euen when the raige of the ennemie appereth to deuore al. And so do they se what is gods merciemercy towardes them. Further whē the elect aduisedlye do consider what be gods seuere iudgementes against the inobedient, and do consider how prone and redie they them selues be of nature to rebelliō against God, except they were cōducted by his spirit, they com to a more liuelie feling of gods fre merciemercy & grace: by the which onelyonly they are exempte frome the rank and societie of the reprobate. Albeit that these endes & causes of gods long suffering, of the vesselles of wrath, do not satisfie you, yet I doubt not but gods afflicted childrē wil, and do take comfort of the same. you thus procede in p. 179your sophisticall Sorites. If he be sorie (say you) then hath he no pleasure in their destruction. And that where in he hath no pleasure he willeth it not, and that which he willeth not, he doth not ordein it. wherefor seing God suffereth them to fall with greate pacience, he hath not ordeined them to fall.

Your foundation being fals, your hole building falleth by y^e own weight.Answere. Before ye procede any further, ye must proue, y^t God did suffer in the vesselles of wrath, that which he nether could nor might remedie, and therefor that he fell in greif and sorow, that his power was no greater and his wisdom no perfiter. Wo be to your blasphemies, for they cōpell me to write, that which I gladly wold not.

I hauehave before said that God nether hath pleasure in destructiō,Answer to the 2. & 3. nether yet that he will the death of the sinner absolutely, y^t is hauing none other respect, but to their torment and pain onelyonly. But albeit pryde and malice will not suffer you to grante, that God hath created all thinges for his own glorie: yet will not he be suppliante vntounto you, that ye shall suffer him to vse his creatures, at his own good pleasure.

Where vponupon these wordes of the Apostle: doest thow dispyse the riches of gods goodnes, not knowing that the kyndnes of God leadeth the to repentance, ye inferre, that the cause why God suffereth with long pacience is that we should repent and amend. If you vnderstand that God suffered his elect, euen in the tyme of their blyndnes, yea and after their horrible falles and offenses with great lenitie and gentlenes, to the end that afterward they may repent, I do aggre with you. for so he did with Dauid, Manasses, Paule, and many others, who after their conuersion did not dispyse gods lenitie, but did magnifie and praise the same, as in all their confessions may be red. But if you vnderstand Paules wordes so, that God hath none other end in that his long suffering, but that the reprobate shal repent p. 180and amend their wickednes, because the holie Gost assigneth other causes (as before we hauehave declared) I must preferre his iudgement and sentence to yours. To your vnreuerent bolde and furious question, in which ye a…k to what purpose did God suffer them with lōg pacience,Answer to the furious question of the aduersarie. whom before he knew shoulde neuer repent nor amend, I can answer none other wies, then I hauehave done before, except that this I adde: that if ye be not contēt that gods iust wrath and greate power shall aswell be manifested, both in this world, and in the life to com, vponupon the vesselles of wrath, as that his merciemercy, & the riches of his glorie shall be praised and extolled in the vesselles of merciemercy, that experience (which the common prouerbe calleth maistres to fooles) shall teach you, that it nothing profited the Gyantes, of whom the poetes do speak, to heap vp mountane vponupon moūtane, of purpose to besiege Iupiter in the heauens. To vse the wordes of scripture, if be tymes ye cease not, so vnreuerently to questiō with God, you shall fele for euer, what torment is prepared, for such as with humilitie, can not be subiect to his iudgementes incōprehēsible, for if ye shall constrein his Maiestie to giuegive you a reason, which ye may vnderstand and apprehend, what do you elles thē go aboute to spoile him of his Godhead?

We stick none other wies to the literall sense of these former wordes of the Apostle then the rest of scriptures permitt and do teach vsus.Answer to the. 4. But how proper be your phrase and common maner of speaking, by the which ye labor to obscure the plaine wordes of y^e Apostle, we briefly shall examin. Ordeined to damnation (say you) after the common maner of speach, doth signifie no more, but whose end is damnation. To grant you som what, I wold know of you, who hath ordeined damnation, to be the ēd of the reprobat: I perceaue by your exemple, that ye dare not say, God: for thus ye say, we vse to say of a man, that is cast to be hanged, this mā was born to be hanged, notwithstanding that was not his mothers mynd to bear him to be hanged.

p. 181Besides the foolishe rudenes of this exemple, I wonder at your madnes, that you can neuer make difference betwext God and earthly creatures. Dare you say, that God hath no greater power, nor foreknowledge in directing and appointing his creatures to their endes, then the mother hath to direct, forse, and appoint the end of her child? after that she hath born him, she knoweth not what shalbe his naturall inclination: althogh she instruct and correct him, yet can she not bow ād expell his crooked nature: when he is absent from her presence, she seeth not his conuersation. If he be deprehended in theft or murther: and so cast to be hanged, she can not (althogh she wold) delyuer him from the handes of the iudge. But is there any of these imperfections in God? Consider yet, and let reason at length put silence vntounto your foolishenes.

Where of the wordes of Moises, of Hoseas, Ieremie, and Paul,Answer to the 5. & 6 ād of the fact of Ieroboam, ye go about to proue, that phrase in that sense, w^c ye adduce, to be common in scriptures. I, am in dowt whether that first I shall lamēt yo^r blynd ignorāce, or abhorre & detest yo^t abhominable lies, & horrible prophanatiō of gods most holie worde.

It is impossible … ^t ignorāce hath so blynded you all, y^t none of you cā se y^e diuersitie betwext tho semaner of speaches: God hath suffered y^e vesselles of wrath ordeined to destruction,Ezod. 11 Leuit. 18 & 20Lev 18 & these, Pharao shall not heare you, y^t many wōders may be wroght, &c. GiueGive not of thy sede to be offered to Moloch, &c. I will set my face agaīst such ā mā, & I will rout him out, from the midest of his people, because that he hath giuen of his sede to Moloch, that he might defyle my Sanctuarie, & prophain my holie Name. And so furth of all the rest. for onelie the place of the Apostle after the english phrase and speach may be rightly translated,The anabaptistes do plainly corrupt y^e scriptures of God. to condemnation, I appeall to thy conscience thow manifest corruptor of gods scriptures, if in all the places, by the alledged there be not this particle, Vt, which is a causal, and not the preposition, In, which is in the wordes of. S. Paul. And hath malice so bereft the of knowledge p. 182that thow canst make no difference, betwext those two dictions or wordes. The Lord of his merciemercy preserue his Churche frō so bolde & so deceatfull teachers. If altogither thou haddest bene ignorant, with sorow of heart, I could hauehave lamēted thy foolishenes: but pererauing y^e of set purpose and malice, willingly to corrupt gods plaine scriptures, that thow may blynd the more easely, the eies of the simple, with grief, ād dolor, I say, that better it had bene for the, neuer to hauehave bene born, thē thus obstinatly to fight agaīst gods plaine trueth. And that in such furie, that where from the scriptures, thou canst hauehave none assurance for thy error, yet so thow darest wrest them, y^t they may seme to serue thy purpose. Where so euer thou cāst wrest any place, that it may be translated by this englishe, To, there thow ashamest not to affirm, y^t it is the self same phrase, with this of S. Paule, vesselles of wrathe prepared or ordeined to destruction. This is sufficient to shew to the learned, yea euen to such, as do but vnderstand the firstprinciples of their grammer, thy infidelitie ād craftie deceat, in this mater. But because such as vnderstand nothing in the latin tongue, can not hastely espie thy craft, I will trauale to make it so sensible as I can.

If I should say, I am appointed to death, to fele the punyshement of sinne, and so to make sinne to cease: will thow therefor say, that this particle, To, in the former place, where I say I am appointed to death, and in the second place where I say, to sele the punishement of sinne, and to make sinne to cease, are all one phrase, and oght a like to be resolued? I suppose thow wilt not. for in the first place, it cā be none other wies resolued but thus, I am appointed to death that is, I must nedes die: but in the secōd place, two causes of death be assigned: for where I say, to fele the punishemen… of sinne, I vnderstand, that one cause of death is, that I and all mē may fele, how horrible is sinne before God: and in this last I vnderstād that death so putteth an ēd to sinne, that after it may not trooble the elect of God. The phrase of S. Paule is much more different p. 183from all that thow adducest, then be these phrases before alledged, one differen… frome an other. for where he saieth, vesselles of wrath ordeined to destruction, he signifieth the final end of the vessels of wrath, to be ordeined, and before determined in gods eternall counsell. And in all these places: to prouoke the Lord, to anger, to defyle my Sanctuarie, to kyndle gods wrath against Israel: to make Israel sinne, and such like, are their actions signified to be the causes of gods anger,Ierem. 15Jer 15 gods wrath, and why he reputed his Sanctuarie polluted. Thus thy frowardnes causeth me to trooble the simple reader. The place of leremie tho v maliciously doest peruerte, for it cā be in nowies so trāslated. But what tōgue so euer thow doest follow thow must say wo be to me, O my mother that thus hast born me, a man that am a brawler, and a man of contention in the hole land

The place of Paule,Answert… the. 6 1. Cor. 11. serueth nothing for thy purpose. for albeit there be a preposition, ad, which truely may be translated, To, yet that speach is far differente, from the former speach of the Apostle for where he saieth: Eat at home that ye come not togither to condemnation, he doth admonish them of the danger, which they know not, w^c was that such inordinat, and riatouse banqueting ioyned with the cōtēpt of the poore, without repentance must bring condemnation. if thow list replie & alledge that thow stickest not somuch to the termes, as to the mater▪ for in all these former speaches, man pretē ded one thing but an other thing ensued. What cāst thow thereof conclude? but that gods purpose, sentence, and mynd, is not subiect to mannes purpose and intention. True it is, that nether Pharao did resist Moises of purpose to be plagued, nether did Ieroboam erect the calues that Israel should be destroied, but yet becaus God had so before pronounced ineuitably plagues and destruction did follow their inobedience. If hereof ye will conclude, as ye seme to do, that those whose end is condemnatiō, receaue not that by y^e will of God, because ye cōclude p. 184that which neither ye hauehave proued, neither yet go about in this place to proue, I will not trouble my self, with answering for this present. But whē ye shal go about to proue that God will all men to be saued (as ye affirme) I hope by gods grace,Answer to the 8. to answer sufficiently. For as we doubt not but gods iudgemētes are holie, and most iust, so we know that the conscience of the wicked shall fele in them selues, and no where elles, the causes of their condemnation. Neither yet did any of vsus euer hold, beleue or affirme, that any reprobate, shall hauehave that libertie in the hell to quarell with God, of the secrete causes of his condemnatiō: for the bookes shall be opened, and the secretes of all heartes shall be reueled.

To the suffering,To the 9. pacience, and sorowing of God, I hauehave before answered, in the beginning of this your last confused gradation, and so I will not trouble the reader, with the repetition of the same. The wordes of Ieremie which ye alledge, can hauehave no such sentence, as ye do gather. for he doeth not speak of any passion, that was in God, as touching his eternall Godhead: but onelyonly doeth appeall to the conscience of the people, how oft God had not onelyonly rebuked, but also from time to time corrected them, euer calling them to repētance, and suspēding their last punishment,The first chap. of Isaiah declareth the place of Ieremie wrested by the aduersaries. how beit that they continually from euil fell backward vntounto worse. And so at length was God werie oftener to repent: that is to say, at once he wold powre furth his iust vēgeāce, which before so oft he had threatned. Let the first chapter of Isaiah be commentarie to this place, and I trust the sentence shall be plaine. For there he affirmeth, that in that people there was no hole part, that is all order and policie was almost confounded, Ierusalem was in a maner left desolate, by the manifest plagues which had apprehended it. but yet there was no trew conuersion vntounto God. And here he saieth, thow hast left me (saieth the Lord) and I hauehave therefor lifted vp myn hād vponupon the,Ierem. 15.Jer 15 and hauehave scattered the. I am werie in repenting, that is, that I hauehave spared the so long. I shall scatter them with the fan, euen vntounto the gates of the earth (that is to the p. 185vttermost parte) I hauehave made my people desolate, and I hauehave destroyed them: neuertheles they hauehave not turned frō their waies. I trust y^t euerie reasonable man will cōsider, y^t those wordes be rather spoken, to admonish the people, how God by all meanes had prouoked them to repentance, then to declare vntounto vsus, what nature or passions God hath in him self, as ye do. For so appereth in this your question. Wil ye say, that God werieth him self suffering and sorowing for them, whom he had reprobated before the world? Surlie I think, that thogh ye hitherto hauehave vnaduisedly said so, ye will from hence furth say so no more. And so ye end this portion with a prayer. To the which we answere in few wordes, that albeit we will not take vponupon vsus, to define, what after this shal your cogitations be, yet will we not cease to pray to God, that your heartes beīg humbled with greater reuerence, ye may not onelyonly think, but also speak of gods hie Maiestie, of his iudgements most holie, most iust, and vtterlie in this life in comprehensible to our dull senses. But now we go forward to that which foloweth.