Defense of the Churches and Ministry of England, Reason 5
Maiſter IOHNSONS V. Reaſon againſt the former Aſſumption: with Maiſter IACOBS Replies to the ſame. REASON V.
AS the golden veſſels taken out of the Lords houſe, and had & vſed in Babilon of the Caldeans, did not therefore make the Babilonians true Iewes touching the faith: Nor their banquets wherin they vſed them, to be anie of the Lords Feastes (ſpoken of Leuit. 23.) but they ſtill remayned Babiloniſh people and banquets notwithſtanding:
So the truthes of the Gospell (veſſels as it were of the Lords houſe) holden and receyued in the ſpirituall Babilon (whereof that other was a type) doe not make the people ſo ſtanding, to be true Christians, Neither their Miniſtery and conſtitution to be Chriſtes appoincted in his Teſtament: But they ſtill remaine the people, Miniſtery, and conſtitution, of Babilon notwithstanding. See the proofes hereof in Dan. 5.1, 2, 3, 4. compared with Prou. 9.17, 18. and Reuel. 17.4, 5. and 18.4. with 14.8, 9, 10.11.
H. JACOB his 1. Replie to the 5. Reaſon.
Your Reaſon is this.
THe materiall veſſells of Ieruſalem, were of the like power and vertue, to ſanctifie the Heathen Babilonians, As the holy chriſtian doctrines in that Booke, are to ſanctifie vsus, that holde togeather with them ſome Popiſh ceremonies and orders as indifferent things:
But thoſe veſſells were not ſufficient to ſanctifie thoſe Babilonians, Ergo, Neither theſe truthes of the Goſpell can ſanctifie vsus.
An abſurd compariſon: The Propoſition is moſt falſe, and ſo the ſcriptures quoted (Dau. 5.1, 2, 3, 4. compared with Pro. 9.17, 18. Rom. 17.4, 5. and 18.4. with 14.8, 9, 10, 11.) are as idely and vainely applied. See the Anſwere to the allegations in the Firſt Reaſon before.
F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 5. Reaſon.
THis he ſayth, is an abſurd compariſon. So belike (if his graue iudgment might goe for good payment) the manifold alluſions which (in deſcribing the ſpirituall Babilon, the Spirit of God“Reu. 17.18. and 15. compared wt Iere. 50.51. Cap. Iſay. 13. & 14. and 21. & 47. maketh to-the materiall Babilō of the Caldeans) were to bee accompted abſurd alluſions and compariſons. As alſo the often alluding, and likening togeather, the *Iſa. 66.20.21 Zach. 14.20.21. 1 Cor. 5.7.8. and 10.2, 3, 4. Col. 2.1.12 He. 13.15, 16.1. Pet. 3.20.21 Reu. 15.3. and 21.20, &c.holy things of the Lawe, with the holy thinges of the Gospell, and the“2. Tim. 3.8.9.1. Cor. 10.6, &c. Heb. 12 16.17. Iude verſ. 11. Reu. 2.14.20. and 20.8, 9. tranſgreſſions then with the tranſgreſſions now, which are ſo often vſed in the Scripture: Are in his account abſurd alluſions and ſimilitudes. Secondlie, he ſayth the Propoſition is moſt falſe. Which we anſwer is most true and most plainely taught and declared in the fift of Daniels propheſie, verſ. 1, 2, 3, 4. and Leuit. 23. as we alleadged before, when we first propounded the reaſon, Wherevnto we yet hauehave receyued no aunſwere. So ſoundly he defendeth his cauſe.
Thirdly he ſaith, The ſcriptures quoted (Dan. 5.1, 2, 3, 4. compared with Pro. 9.17, 18. Reuel. 17.4, 5, & 18, 4. and 14, 8, 9, 10, 11.) are idely and vainely applyed. But howe ſhewes he this to be ſo as he ſaith? Verie profondlie, I warrant you. For he bids vsus ſee the anſwere to the allegations in the Firſt Reaſon: And this is all the proofe he bringes. Well: wee hauehave ſeene his anſwere to the allegations there, and finde: Firſt, that thoſe ſcriptures here alleadged, are not ſo much as once mencioned there. Secondlie that his anſwere to the allegations there ſet downe, is moſt friuoulous and of no weight, but against him ſelfe, as there we hauehave declared.
Lastlie, in his propounding of our Reaſon otherwiſe then we had done (which in deede is a thing verie ordinarie, though nothing commendable in them) it ſeemeth, that being not able to anſwer anie parte of our Reaſon, as we had ſet it downe, yet he thought to helpe him ſelf by this exception, that the Materiall veſſells of Ieruſalem were not of the like power and vertue to ſanctifie the Heathen Babilonians, as the true doctrines receyued among the ſpirituall Babilonians, are to ſanctifie them. But hee ſhall finde, if he will conſider and compare togeather the Scriptures heere alleadged, that the golden veſſells being holy to the Lorde, and taken out of his Temple, did aſmuch ſanctifie the Caldean Babilonians and their Feastes: As the holy doctrines (veſſels as it were of the Lordes Temple) had among the spirituall Babilonians, doe ſanctifie them and their conſtitution, That is, neither of their Estates and Aſſemblies are ſanctified thereby at all. For ſaith not the Lorde,“Eze. 43.8. That the ſetting of mens postes and threſholds, (howe much more of Babilons enormities) by his Postes & Threſholdes, that is by his truthes and ordinances, is ſo farre from ſanctifying, as it defileth his holy Name, yea is abomination in his fight, and ſetteth a wall betweene him and them that doe it? Saith not the ſcripture alſo,†Prou. 9.17, 18. &, 20.17. that the true doctrines in the falſe church are amonge them as ſtollen waters and hid bread, which though they be ſweete & pleaſaunt, yet there alſo is the mouth filled with grauell, and the guestes of thoſe feastes and aſſemblies, are ſo farre frō being ſanctified by thoſe truthes in that eſtate, as they are before God euen dead men, and in the deapth of hell.
To conclude this poinct, hath not an Angell from heauen proclaimed it with a loude voice, that“Reu. 18, 1, 2, 3, 3, 11. &c. and 17, 1, 2, 3 4, 5. and, 14.8, 9, 10, 11. the spirituall Babilon, (notwithſtanding any truthes ſhe holdeth yet) is ſo vnſanctifyed and abominable, as ſhee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes, and that all her children and Marchants that will not departe out of her, ſhall receyue of her plagues and damnation, and drinke of the wine of Gods wrath, yea of the pure wyne, which is powred into the cup of his wrath, and be tormented in fire and brimſtone, before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for euermore. Loe here their fearfull eſtate, which this man will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God.
H. JACOB his 2. Reply to the 5. Reaſon.
IN this your defence of your Fifth Reaſon, you miſlike that J call it an abſurd compariſon: Where you affirme that the golden veſſes of the Jewes were as available to ſanctifie the Babilonians, as the truthes of the Goſpell which wee hold are to ſanctifie vsus. In deed your owne wordes be, holden and receiued in the ſpirituall Babilon. By which termes you meane vsus of England I trow. But marke ſir. Is not this groſſe ſophiſtery againe? Is not this childiſh vanitie, open beggerie, and crauing of that which is the whole queſtion? that is, That our Churches are ſpirituall Babilon, and as deepely infected in Babiloniſh impietie as thoſe old Caldeans. If they were ſo infected, I graunt in deed your Reaſon would follow: But ſeeing it is the queſtion, And ſeeing we profeſſe our ſelues true Chriſtians by thoſe truthes of the Goſpell which we hold (and as by Gods grace we are indeed) Say I not well, that this is an abſurd Compariſon? Yes Maiſter Iohnſon, it is a moſt *To match thoſe outward veſſells, (of no ſanctity of them ſelues) with our inward doctrins, of ſaluation.impious, abſurd, & ſenceleſſe compariſon, & void of common reaſon: And it inwrappeth Maiſter Cranmer, Maiſter Ridley, &c. within the ſame Iniurions, Yea irreligious conſequence likewiſe.
All that you hauehave of alluſions, and alluding, betwene the Tipicall and ſpirituall Babilon, are meere deluſions, and vaine cauils. Proue vsus firſt to be ſpirituall Babilon: Or els you fight with your ſhadow.
So that ſtill I ſay, thoſe Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. &c. As alſo all the reſt here packed togeather in your Margen, they are miſerably and deſperately abuſed, according as I rightly referred you to my cenſure to your Firſt Reaſon: which for all your wordes, you hauehave not refuted. The very ſame I ſay of your other Two ſcriptures towards the end, Pro. 9.17. &c. Reu. 18.1. &c. As for Ezek. 43.8. I anſwered it before †Pag. 34.in your Firſt Reaſon.