Defense of a Treatise Touching the Suffering and Victory of Christ — Henry Jacob

Defense of a Treatise Touching the Suffering and Victory of Christ · Henry Jacob

Now it reſteth that I gather ſome reaſons from the expreſſe Scripture,…s for vsus to ſhew you that indeed very paines and the vehemency of ſorrowes, namely which hee now ſuſtayned by way of yeelding. Satisfaction and Sacrifice for ſinne, were the principall and onelyonly proper Cauſe of his moſt dreadfull Agonies & Complaint. Which truly though it neede no reaſon for proofe of it, (the matter being ſo cleere in it ſelfe) yet your vnreaſonablenes is ſuch that it draweth ſomewhat from me about it. Firſt, No Chriſtian doubteth (I ſuppoſe) much leſſe denyeth that Chriſts moſt wofull Agonies & Complaining belonged properly and directly to his Paſſion and Sacrifice: and that they expreſſed a parte thereof, yea as I thinke not the leaſt parte. But his whole Sacrifice conſiſted in Afflictions, The Prince of our Salvation was conſecrated through Afflictions. Therefore Afflictions Sorrowes and Paines were the Cauſe of his Agonies and Complaint: not his religious feare, not his Piety or Pity. If you ſay, Theſe were Afflictions vntounto him. I anſwer, they properly belonged to his Holynes as partes thereof, and were notaBefore p… See al…o … 91.9…. immediatly directly nor properly in him as the Wages & Price of ſinne: as his whole Paſſion was, and every part thereof. Againe that theſe ſhould, or could afflict Chriſte ſo much above his ſtrength and patience, it is more then ſtrange. Yea alſo it were no vertu… but ſinne in any, to give way to our Affections (though about good thinges) immoderatly beyond our patience & ſtrength of nature. Laſtly though they ſomwhat moleſt the minde, yet in truth they are moſt pleaſing and delightfull to good men, not tedious, much leſſe painfull vntounto death. Therefore you do very ill to make theſe partes of Chriſts Holines to be proper partes of his ſatisfaction, and the maine Cauſes of his Agonie and Complaint. And worſe you doe if you aſcribe thembPag. 27… & 115. not to any Paines in him at all. Secondly, The ſumme of theſecPag 90. forenoted Texts muſt be conſidered: namely that Chriſte expreſly wiſhed ſundry times in his dreadfull aſtoniſhment ſuddainly even against Gods knowen will in one reſpect, though allwayes after his knowen will in another reſpect, as afterward wee ſhall ſee. And heere are expreſſed (with his ſtrange Astoniſhment) his mighty Sorrowes, and Feare of them, partly felt and partly further to come. YoudPag. 9.… skip this Feare when you reckon but 4. kindes: For this was neither a religious care, nor doubtfull feare, nor desperat nor damned feare, but a right Naturall feare in Chriſt. Which was as I ſaid for the infinitnes of his ſorrowes partly now revealed, and partly further to bee laid vponupon him afterward. Whence alſo his ſweating drops of bloud trickling downe from him, and his intolerable Agonie, and his comfort receaved by an Angell from heaven that now in this his wofull diſcomfort ministred vntounto him: and his complaying on the Croſſe that his Father had forſaken him: finally all his prayers and ſupplications with teares and ſtrong cryes against that death which he feared. Now all theſe things we ſee in Chriſt, came becauſe of his ſorrowes and Paines in his Paſſion, not for his zealous Holines and Sanctification.…l 51.11.2.8. David wāted ſomtime the preſent feeling of Gods comfortable ſpirit, and mourned dolefully for the want of it, albeit yet hee were not deſtitute of his ſpirit indeed: which alſo himſelfe knew well enough. And thus did Chriſt even in his greateſt plunge of wo: for then he called God his God reſolutly. Nevertheles, he being infinitly more puniſhed then David, nature could not but ſuddainly caſt out that affection (which yet was meerely naturall in him) to wiſh eaſe, and releaſe of his vnmeaſurable and intollerable paines. Third: Adde heere vntounto, Chriſts own expreſſe words,Ioh. 12.27. …ark 14.35 when in this ſeaſon he prayeth, that a this Hower and This Cup may paſſe from him. That which This Hower and This Cup do ſignifie, the ſame is the proper & principall cauſe of his Agonie. But what can bee meant by This Hower, vnles the Paines of his ſuffering ſet and appointed by God for him to beare at this determined time from Gods Iuſtice for ſinne? What is this Cup, but the bitter taſt of the ſame Paines aforeſaid? This I hope was not his Holines and ſanctification which ſo troubled and moleſted him: not his Piety nor his Pity. Nay, finally he himſelfe expreſſeth the true Cauſe, even his exceſſive Paines, his overabounding Sorrowes and anguiſh: ſaying, My Soule is full of paines or full of ſorrowes even vntounto death. Heere hee nameth the Cauſe. For which Cauſe alſo, even of intolerable and vnſupportable ſorrowes and paines it muſt needes be that he cryed at his end, My God, my God, why hast thou for ſaken me? This then manefeſtly was the only proper and principall cauſe of Chriſtes moſt dreadfull Agonies and perplexity in his Paſſion, even exceſſive Paines, and the intire want of feeling of Gods comfort, Pag. 17.and nothing els. How hard ſoever b you make it (I c know not why) to ſhew the proper & principall cauſe thereof.Treat. 1. Pag. 72. And heere wee will remember againe what is taught by Authority in England. The rather for that you take on as a man impatient, becauſe I doe affirme that our doctrine, (not yours) hath the publike Authorie for it.Pag. 334. You d call it an egregiously, an inſolent and impudent ſpeach, well becomming an alehouſe. &c. And yet in the verie nextbPag. … page in plaine termes you graunt the ſame to bee taught in our Homily of Chriſtes Paſſion: for you ſay thus the Hom: teacheth, The Justice of God purſued Christe with most paynefull ſmart and anguiſh even vntounto death: and forced the weaknes of his humane fleſh to cry, My God, my God, why hast thou forſaken me. Heere I am ſure you think not that our Homelie maketh Chriſts Pietie or Pitie, nor yet his meere Bodily paine to force him thus farre. Nor in thoſe wordes next following there,cHom … Paſs. 2. O that Mankinde ſhould put the everlasting Sonne of God in ſuch paines for the grievouſnes of our ſinnes. And in trueth that the Homily is farre from both theſe your meanings, I have plainly ſheweddPag. 6 before. Adde heerevnto the full and large declaration heereof in the authoriſed Catechiſme:eNowe techiſ… Christ ſuffered not only a common death in ſight of men, but àlſo was thoroughly touched with the horror of eternall death: he fought and wrastled as it were hand to hand with the whole army of Hell: before Gods iudgement ſeat he put him ſelfe vnderunder the heavy and grievous ſeveritie of Gods puniſhment: he was driven to most hard ſtraights: hee ſuffered for vsus and went through horrible feares, and moct bitter ſorrowes of the minde that he might in all things ſatisfye the iust iudgement of God & appeaſe his wrath. For to ſinners whoſe perſon Chriſt did heere beare, not only the ſorrowes and tormentes of preſent death are due, but alſo of death to come and everlasting: So when hee did take vponupon him and beare both the guiltines and iust paine of Mankinde damned and lost, he was affected with ſo grievous feare, trouble and ſorrowe of the minde or ſoule, that he cryed out, My God, my God, why hast thou forſaken me. Finally the Annotation of our greatfBibl. 1591. & … Bible authorized and appointed to be read in our Churches, iuſtifyeth all this ſaying,gAnno… Luk. 2… Christ here felt the horror of Gods wrath and iudgement against ſinne. I pray, who is that Egregious lyar now? I hope for my part I have ſpoken the truth in avouching my doctrine & that forenoted Propoſition & Aſſumption alſo, by you denyed, to be our publike doctrine and fully authorized in England. Wherefore you may meane ſome other to behPag. … a giddy Spirit lately buzzing in the peoples eares the cōtrary: I hope I am clear from it. And thus it remayneth that we conclude even our whole Reaſon to be firme & true, which isiPag. 9… before delivered. The paines of Christes Paſſion which now he felt and feared, were the principall and proper cauſe of thoſe his Agonies. But his meere Bodily Paines and death, or the feare of them, cauſed no ſuch things and lamentable effectes in Christ: much leſſe did his Pietie and Pitie. Therefore Chriſt felt and feared Paines more, and infinitly greater, then meere Bodily paine and death: which were the principall and proper Cauſe of this ſtrange plight in him. Which conſequently can be none other by neceſſary reaſon, then the Paines and ſenſe of Gods wrath in his ſpirite properly. Therefore Chriſt ſuffered that alſo: and not only in Body, as you hold.

Howbeit you have yet heere and there ſome exceptions againſt this our doctrine which are not to be cleane neglected. Firſt, you ſay,…ag. 290. a I extend Ch…iſtes Agonie too farre: becauſe I will have it proceed from b the intollerable ſorrowes and horrors of Gods fyrie wrath equall to Hell. Treat. 1. …g 80.I ſhew not there the Cauſe of Chriſtes Agonie and Feare: I ſhewed it of purpoſe in the c beginning. Why did you not refuſe that?Treat. 1. …ag 6 7 You ought to have dealt directly againſt that which I expreſly mention to have ben the cauſe. Thus I ſaid, His Sorrowes and ſufferings for the redemptiō of ſinnes, The Cup of Affliction and ſorrowe which now he felt and was to feele yet further, Cauſed him to mourne and feare. Say then plainly, that this Cauſe is mistaken, and too farre extended: or els you ſay nothing to vsus, but by indirect and p…aepoſterous collectiō. Now if this Cauſe which we gave and doe give, be true and right, (as I hope it is before proved more then ſufficiently) then I doubt not it is as true alſo by invincible reaſon, that Chriſt ſuffered the intollerable ſorrowes & horrors of Gods fyrie wrath equall to Hell. Which I hope alſo is as fully proved:…g. 91. 117 being the effect of our d Aſſumption before. Seeing it could not be his meere Bodily paines (much leſſe his Holy Affections, as you hold) that brought him to this miraculous miſerie and diſtreſſe, wherein wee ſee by the Text hee was. Therefore they were the intollerable and incomprehenſible dolours of his Spirit (queſtionles) which wrought the ſame. There is no other ſorrow in the world to be found which can be imagined to be the Cauſe poſſibly.…ag. 290. And then my other wordes alſo which e heere you cruelly cōdemne, ſhall ſtand well enough, * That Christ as touching the vehemency of paine was as ſharply touched as the Reprobats themſelves, …reat. 1. …g. 81.yea if it may be more extraordinarily. Though you labour with might and maine to make them amount to Haereſie & open blasphemie. But why do you not bend your odious outcryes and accuſations againſt that Authority before truly cited, whiche maintayneth the ſame ſo fully and amply as I deliver it? You doe wiſely to diſſemble your enmitie to all them, and yet nevertheles by me to ſmite and wounde them. Howbeit what reaſon have you againſt our Aſſertion? Verily onelyonly this you oppoſe, becauſeaPag. 29 292. all the ſorrowes of the Reprobat are but ſinfull guiltines of conſcience or feares of iudgement for ſeene, which is executedbPag. 14 only in the next life: you meane onelyonly in the definit and locall Hell. Which yet is no refutation of my aſſertiō, that Chriſt was as ſharply touched with paine as the very Reprobats. For though the wicked in this world did never ſuffer any reall effect of God burning wrath working actuall vengeance on their Soules for ſinne, but only ſome guilty remorſe or feare and nothing els, yet this letteth not but that Chriſt whom God ordayned extraordinarily, & alone, to be in this life a whole and abſolut burnt Sacrifice for all ſin, did feele and ſuffer the ſame truly, properly, and perfitly. Sec: How I have alwayes expreſly excluded fromcAs being Extraoro… ry ſufferer… Chriſt†Likewiſe … thoſe your … thinges … Hell pag. 49. The Rept… bats doe ſo… time here … a reall taſt … Hell paines all ſinful adherēts or conſequents in paines and feares, which are in the wicked: and doe reſemble his to theirs only and meerely in ſharpnes and vehemency of paine, I have often declared before. Thirdly, the caſe is cleere enough that the Reprobat many times in this life doe not only feare the iudgment to come, but alſo do feele ſome reall and actuall impreſſion of Gods burning wrath, and even of Hell torments, though not being yet in the locall Hell. For proofe whereof, that which beforedTreat 1. pag 46. I alleaged out ofeIob 6.4. Iob, andfEph. e. 6. … 16. Ion. 2. others, that even the godly heere want not experience of the ſorrowes of Hell ſometimes, you paſſe over anſwering nothing therevnto. Which yet being ſo in the godly, it muſt needes be in Cain, Iudas, and the Reprobats, far more direful & intollerable ſomtimes. As alſo their own confeſſion, and behaviour do ſundry times teſtifie in this life: Againe the Divels are many timesgMat. 8 2… 32. Eph. 2. & 6.12. out of the locall Hell, as when they are in this world. But the Divells areh2 Pet. 2.4… never releaſed of Hell ſorrows. Therefore the true ſorrows of Hell are even in this world: and then poſſibly may be inflicted on wicked men as they are on the Divells which are ſometime out of the locall Hell. Laſtly the true ioyes of Heaven may be out of the local Heaven: as when the glorious Angells have ben and taryed ſome while heere on earth with men. Yet did they never for a moment want the ioyes and glory of Heaven. And if Angells may inioy Heaven really beeing in this world,…e Godly …ay have a …t heere ſom …nes of Hea…nly ioyes. then is it poſſible by Gods goodnes to communicat ſome reall foretaſt thereof even vntounto ſome bleſſed men alſo. Further that God doth thus indeed i reveale ſom reall taſt of his Heavenly ioyes to his chirdren even in this life, I have k ſhewed already, but am not anſwered.Cor. 2.9.10. Treat. 1. pag. 80 Yea the Transfiguration of Chriſt on the Mount declareth that ſome reall part of Heavenly glory may bee heere on earth,Pag. 115. which your ſelfe l ſomewhere confeſſeth cleane m againſt your ſelf.Pag. 337. 338. Only this n you have to obiect touching men, that we heere doe but hope and ioyfully beleeve.Pag 338. Nowe faith and hope is the o evidence of thinges not ſeene:Hebr. 11.1. neither are our greateſt ioyes the ſame nor equal to them which we ſhal poſſeſſe in the next world. I anſwere, our Reaſons before doe prove more then onelyonly Hope in the faithfull ſomtimes. Sec: It is true the Apoſtle ſaith that heere wee walke by faith and live by hope.Cor. 5.7. This is the general ſtate of the godly in this life: alſo it is ſpoken in Cōpariſon of the life to come, which in truth infinitly exceedeth, & laſteth. Yet ſome rare exceptions doe not overthrow the generall courſe: and heere may be notwithſtanding ſome particular inſtant times when ſome reall ſenſe may be revealed to the godly.…eſame in …ature, not in …eaſure, w^t …albe heere…ter. As there was vntounto Chriſt in the mount, which was to him not onelyonly a ioyfull hope, but a reall taſt of his very Heavenly ioyes. Likewiſe the godly ſomtime may taſt of it in their meaſure, & yet they may generally in the courſe of their whole life walke by faith, without that actual ſenſe which I ſpeak of, ſaving ſtill a moſt ioyfull remēbrāce of it. Again, though we are not to doubt but that the reall ſenſe of Heavenly ioyes heere and heerafter are the very ſame in nature (as in the examples before we have ſeene) yet I ſay heereafter we… ſhall receave vnſpeakeable increaſe farther and above this that we taſt heere.

1. When we ſhall have all darknes & corruption taken from vsus, wherwith now we are compaſſed and clogged all this life long.

2 When the fullnes of Gods appointed time ſhall come for it, then will he of purpoſe reveale himſelfe and his glory vntounto vsus as it were with open face, which heere is don but vnderunder a vayle: and ſpecally then when our bodies alſo in the Reſurrection ſhalbe conioyned with our ſoules in glorie.

3 When we ſhall eternally inioy and poſſeſſe the ſame, which heere in this life is but now and then revealed vntounto vsus, in ſuch perſons, times, maner, and meaſure as the Lord ſhall thinke good.

Thus we graunt the ioyes of Heauen heere, are nothing equall to thoſe heereafter: only we ſay the very ſame in nature may be and are by the effectuall working of Gods gracious ſpirit in his elect revealed in ſome meaſure, & ſomtime, evē in this world. Neither is this (as your charitie ſpeaketh) any lewd or wicked error. Now then if more then Hope only, evē Heavenly ioyes may be on earth, ſurely it followeth; that like wiſe more then Feare, even Helliſh paynes them ſelues may be in men on earth alſo, and not in the locall Hell onelyonly. And if Hell paynes in this world may be in any, much rather may they hauehave bene in Chriſt: whom God purpoſely ſentaHebr. 2. through paynes and afflictions (the extreameſt that might be) to be conſecrated the Prince of our ſalvation. If you ſaye, yet thus it will followe that the extreameſt paines of Hell are not to be foūd in this world, as the higheſt ioyes of Heaven are not likewiſe, by my confeſſion. Wherefore Chriſt could not bee ſo extreamely puniſhed (any thing neare) as the damned be in Hell, no not for any moment: which yet my, conceit (as you call it) doeth reach vntounto. I aunſwer, I knowe not, neither meane I to determine the meaſure and depth of ſorrowes which Chriſt in his Paſſion ſuffered: as alſo it is not poſſible to define that glorie which hee taſted of (for the time) in the mount. Only graunt this plainly, that Chriſt ſuffered in his ſoule the true effects of Gods proper Iuſtice or wrath: and we ſeeke no more. Graunt this I ſay, and then we will ſee further (if you will make it a queſtion) whether the ſenſe of payne in Chriſt was leſſer for the time, then that which is eternall in the damned: and whether the true and proper wrath of God taking full vengeance of ſinne heere in this world, might not be as ſharpe and violent as the ſharpeſt torment in Hell, yea the very ſhame which is in Hell the ſharpeſt. Truely, though Chriſt ſuffered all (which hee did ſuffer) heere in this world, yet for any thing I can ſee, there is cauſe why Chriſt ſhould be an Extraordinarie perſon in the caſe of Suffering for ſinne in this life: and that therfore, as touching ſorrow and paine, he might feele more then ever any els hath or could feele for the time. You ſeeme to graunt vntounto ChriſtbPag. 2 all naturall ſorrowe and feare. Neither doe wee ſeeke any more. But you trust the payne of the Damned is more then a naturall oppreſſing and afflicting of the heart with humane feare & ſorrow. Forſooth it is not. It is no more then a very natural humane ſorrow & feare. It proceedeth immediatly and principally from God him ſelfe: who is the Nature of natures. Alſo Humane nature is apt to receyue ſuch ſorrow & fear from him. Thus the very paynes of the Damnedare meerely naturall. Yet ſupernaturall I graunt they are, if we meane this, that they are aboue our natures ſtate to beare or to cōprehend them. This therefore hitherto is a very ſlight exception againſt our doctrine before delivered.

The next is as vaine,Pag. 296. where a you thinke it not tolerable that I ſay,Treat 1. …ag 59. Chriſt b in playne words prayed contrary to Gods knowen will. I pray hauehave patience: I ſaye no harme, nor meane no ill. Did not Chriſt in plaine wordes pray,…aek. 14.35 c That, if it were poſſible this Hower might paſſe from him: Ioh. 1….27.and before, d Father; ſave me frō this hower. By this Hower he meaneth this his paine & puniſhment appointed him by God for to ſuffer at that time. And this Chriſte knew well, ſeeing he ſaith preſently, But therfore I came into this hower. Doeth he not then pray in plaine words cōtrary to Gods knowne will? Therefore never skoffe at it, nor reproch it, nor wreſt it. We ought not to bee aſhamed to acknowledge that weaknes of Humane nature in Chriſt, which Chriſt was not aſhamed of for our ſakes to vndergo. If this could not be poſſibly in Chriſtes Manhood without ſin, then I were a wretch to affirme ſo much of him; eſpecially ſtil to affirm it. But if it be poſſible by any means, thorow the meere inſtinct of mans Nature, (as it is Gods creature and free from all ſinne) thus to ſpeake and to wiſh ſuddainly, and ſuddainly to controll it againe, as Chriſt did: then what minde beare you, and how may we iudge of this your ſtriving, which is not to cleare Chriſt from all ſinne in his Agonie. For that we doe all, and Nature it ſelfe witneſſeth with vsus that in ſuch a caſe as he now was in, this was nothing ſtrang to be thus perplexed, & moved. But your ſtriving ſeemeth to be altogither to exempt Chriſtman from our meere naturall affections and infirmities: and to give him Humane fleſh indeed, but not ſuch as ours is in all and every point, except onelyonly ſinne. You will ſay, If hee knew it to be Gods will and prayed againſt it, how could he want ſinne? I anſwer, He knew it; but at this inſtāt he cōſidered it not, he thought not on it: and ſo his ſuddaine deſire may bee cleere from ſinne. But why thought hee not on it? or how could hee chooſe but think on that which he well knew, and did ſo greatly concerne him? I anſwer, His Paines and ſorrowes being ſo great and ſo infinit as they were, not in his Body onelyonly but chiefly in his very Spirit and Minde, and theſe more extreamely revealed vponupon him now at theſe inſtant times, then they were otherwiſe or continually, as by the effects of them in him we may perceave. I ſay, theſe things acknowledged & wel wayghed as they ought to be, then it is eaſy to ſhew why, & how Chriſt came thus affected, & yet without ſin. Firſt, he was nowaEkthamb iſtha…, is to aſtoniſhed v… …eare. Ma…. 1….33. astoniſhed as the text ſaith: and youbPag 124. acknowledge that he might be. Sec: theſe incōprehenſible ſorrowes & incomparable paines astoniſhed him: yea impoſſible it was but his meere humane nature muſt be astoniſhed with them. And it is vtterly vntrue which you ſay,cPag. 196. Many things might astoniſh our Saviour for the time beſides ſuch paines. In theſe inſtant times of his Paſſion, nothing could aſtoniſh him but Paines and Sorrowes. W^ch beforedPa. 115.1… I have proved, or at leaſt that Paines & Sorrowes now did chiefly: & that nothing could poſſibly without ſuch Sorrowes and Paines as theſe, which I ſpeake of: even ſpirituall, and infinit, and incomprehenſible paines, proceeding from Gods Iuſtice vponupon him for our ſinnes. Thirdly, Adde heerevnto that which you rightly grant,cPag. 12…. It is true that a mighty feare may ſo affect a man for the time, that it ſhall hinder the ſenſes from recovering themſelves, and ſtop the faculties from informing one the other. But this muſt be ſome ſuddain obiect aſtoniſhing the heart, and ſo terrible, that it ſuffereth vsus not preſently to gather our wits togither, and to conſider of it. Likewiſe very fully afterward,fPag. 29…. Astoniſhment draweth the minde ſo wholy to think on ſome ſpeciall thing above our reach, that during the time we turne not our ſelves to any other cogitation. Even as the eye, if it be bent intentively to behold any thing, for that preſent it diſcerneth nothing els: So fareth it with the Soule, if ſhe wholy addict her ſelfe to think on any matter, ſhe is amuſed; if it be more them ſhe conceaveth, or more fearfull then ſhe well indureth, ſhe is amazed or astoniſhed: but not of neceſſity ſo, that ſhe looſeth either ſenſe or memorie: only for that time ſhe converteth neither to any other obiect. Now thus Chriſt being astoniſhed with ſorrows and feare loſt not either ſenſe, memory, or vnderſtanding, much leſſe his vertues and graces, being caſt into an infernall confuſion, as you vntrulygPag. 289. charg me that I ſay. But I ſay, as you ſay, He now on the ſuddaine might turne neither ſenſe nor memory to any other obiect, and ſo not think on any thing ells, but only on this terrible and mighty ſorrow & feare, which now ſmote him & bruized him to pieces. And thus for the very ſuddaine he might not think at all vponupon Gods will, and his owne certaine purpoſe to ſuffer this very ſame, or that he was to ſuffer it longer: but only on the intolerablenes of the paines and wo, which inſtantly he felt. Now Natures very inſtinct is, in ſuch dolours to wiſh and deſire eaſe, and the more vehemently it is pinched, the more earneſtly it deſireth: and this is Gods owne gift and workmanſhip in nature, and ſimply thus to deſire, is in this reſpect truly to be reckoned Gods owne expreſſe will. And thus for the ſuddaine not remembring, nor thinking on Gods particular will otherwiſe, but feeling the inſtinct of nature in ſuch a caſe only wiſhing eaſe to it ſelf, he prayeth rightly That this Hower & This Cup might paſſe frō him. Wherein yet I ſay he prayeth in one reſpect againſt Gods known wil, but in an other reſpect even according to his will. According to his wil which now he had ſenſe of, even to wiſh releaſe & eaſe frō ſuch deadly ſorrows and feare: contrary to his particular wil being this that he muſt yet further ſuffer them. Which (as I ſaid) ſuddenly being aſtoniſhed he remēbred not, he thought not vponupon it. Laſtly it was contrary in the outward words, & in the particular affection of his minde now wanting this remembrance: but it was fully and wholy according to Gods will in the generall diſpoſition of his minde and whole man. As appeared by his preſent applying himſelfe with all readines even to this moſt dolorous obedience of Gods will, foorthwith ſo ſoone as hee recollected himſelf: ſaying Not my will, but thy will be don. Where even this alſo ſheweth, that before Gods will and his in ſome reſpect were contrary, but abſolutly now they agree. If you abhorre this in me, yet ſee what Chriſoſtom taught, a Theſe wordes (Not as I will, but as thou wilt) do ſignifie 2. Wills, (ſaith he) one of the Father another of the Sonne, Ioan Conſtantinop in Theodoret. Dial. 3.contrary the one to the other. Igraunt M. Beza vſeth ſom termes differing from ours, yet his ſenſe is the ſelfſame with ours.Bez. Annot. … mat. 26. He ſaid b Christ corrected not his ſpeach as if he had before ſpoken amiſſe. I ſay, He did correct his ſpeach: not mending it as being any whit amiſſe, but making it being good to be better. That is by ſhewing his generall conformitie to Gods will now more particularly, and distinctly. Which ſentenſes in effect and indeed do not differ: and this latter, I think, may well be called a correcting, no leſſe then the former. Alſo he ſaith, The Humane and Divine will are not Contrary, but Divers. I vnderſtand even Differing from Gods will, to be Contrary. Namely in that particular reſpect wherin the difference is. For otherwiſe now there may be a general perfit conformitie to Gods will, as is before ſaid. Neither is this particular contrariety to Gods will any ſinne, namely when by Gods own ordinance we know not what Gods ſpecial will is, ſo that we alwayes remaine apt & ready therevnto when we know it. So did David*2 Sam. 1 16. deſire the life of his Child. It was contrary to Gods wil one way: as the event ſhewed, for the Child dyed. Yet he prayed well and rightly according to God will in natures affection, ſeeing hee knew not Gods ſecret will to the contrary, neither was to have knowne it before the event. And thus likewiſe ſtood the caſe with Chriſte at this ſeaſon. His ſuddaine Not remembring Gods particular will (by reaſon of his fearfull aſtoniſhment) was all one as if he had not known it at all (yea thus alſo he ought not to hauehave knowen it) for that inſtant. Namely, ſeeing this Not remē bring and not thinking thereon came not of any negligence or default in him, but only and meerely by Natures infirmitie (Gods own ordinance) which could not poſſibly but faile vnderunder ſuch infinit violence of paines. This M. Beza calleth Divers rather then Contrarie to Gods will: but in effect it is the ſame, and he plainly meaneth even there all one with vsus. You ſay“Pag. … I am captious against Christ in not ſupplying one Evangeliſt with another. For ſo Chriſtes deſire wil appeare to be but Conditionall, therefore not Contrary to Gods will. Yes, nevertheles; as touching the deſire it ſelfe and his particular preſent inclination cōpared to Gods particular determination heerein. And ſo was alſo Davids forenoted deſire for his childs life: yea Balaams*Numb… 19. bad deſire was ſuch in this point. Theſe were all Conditionall, yet contrarie to Gods particular will. Heerein ſtood the difference: Balaam then knewe Gods will was otherwiſe, at that tyme when he inclined after his owne minde. David ſimply knew not, Chriſt alſo knew not (that is, he remembred not) at that inſtant the contrary. Therefore Balaams deſire though Conditionall and with reſervation (as it ſeemed) of God will, was nevertheles wicked and againſt God: his conditionall words excuſed not the oppoſition of his Will againſt Gods Wil. Yea, in this caſe when we perfitly know and remember Gods certaine will, every light affection and ſuddaine wiſhing to the contrary, (howſoever conditionally) is no leſſe then manefeſt ſinne againſt God. But in David and Chriſt heere the caſe is not ſo, as before I noted. Their deſires indeed were, & ought to hauehave ben conditionall: for who knoweth not, that all good prayers and deſires for temporall things muſt bee conditionall, that is with reſervation of Gods will alwayes implyed, though not alwayes expreſſed? And albeit they were conditionall yet they might be and were contrary, as alſo I have ſhewed. Yea the very nature of all Cōditional deſires is ſuch, that it includeth evermore a poſſibility (at leaſt) of being cōtrary to his wil, whom we deſire. And therefore we vſe ſomtime expreſly to qualifie our deſire, ſaying, Jf thou wilt, and Jf it pleaſe thee, &c. Now thus was Davids and Chriſts: yea not only poſſible to be contrary, but contrary indeede, as the ſequele ſhewed. Howbeit both their deſires were nevertheles holy,…ag. 298. † made in faith, aſſured to receaue, (as cōdicional deſires may be) directed aright, prepared ſufficiently: yet onelyonly for this cauſe, ſeeing David ſimply knew not Gods contrary wil: Chriſt knew it not at that inſtant. Howbeit the truth is, Chriſt could not but now know and remember it very well, if hee were not at this inſtant grievouſly aſtoniſhed. Neither could he be ſo aſtoniſhed and wofully diſtreſſed in his Soule, without that intolerable and infinit waight of ſorrowes before ſpoken of. Therefore briefly, ſo it was doubtleſſe with him at that ſeaſon. All in vaine then you charge mee that I " ſtreth the Scriptures beyond their wordes and the trueth, …g. 289.when in my diſcourſe I ſhew that Chriſt in the garden was astoniſhed & grievouſly perplexed: the text having onelyonly, He began to be astoniſhed and grievouſly perplexed. I graunt the text is ſo. But thinke you, that phraſe in Scripture ſignifieth a begging only, & no further proceeding at all? It is written,…rk. 6.34. a He began to teach them many things. Alſo, b And Ieſus aunſwered them and began to ſay, …. 13.5.Take heede least any man deceave you, …. 10.45.&c. And c He began to cast out them that ſolde in the Temple, … 1.1.&c. And d All that which Ieſus began to doe and teach. …. 24.2And, e Tertullus began to accuſe Paul, ſaying, &c. It were very ſimple to ſay that the Scripture meaneth theſe things were only begun, and no more. Nay verily, they were heere don to the full. Againe, as Chriſt was indeed aſtoniſhed & grievouſlie perplexed, ſo he did at the firſt but begin to be thus, and then afterwards grew to the full. Now theſe degrees and proceedings of Chriſt in his ſorrorwes, & that they were not at the higheſt at once, this worde heere he began may very well ſignifie. For the text following doth invincibly ſhew that he did fully come to the extreamity of aſtoniſhment, & began not only. For did he but begin when hee ſwet clotted bloud trickling from his body to the ground? Alſo when an Angell was ſent from Heaven to refreſh and comfort him: did he then but begin to be heavy? Againe when moſt moornfully he complained that his Soule abounded with ſorrowes even vntounto death: Finally when he 3. ſeverall tymes prayed to his Father with ſtrong crying, teares, and feare, that the Cup of Gods puniſhments now given him to drinke, might paſſe from him if it were poſſible, which at other tymes he moſt perfectly knew that it neyther could nor ſhould eſcape him: wherevnto may be added that at laſt when he ſo dolefully complayned that his God had forſaken him; was hee now all this while but begining to be troubled and ſad? You would have mademe aſhamed of it, if I had had any ſuch thought in my minde. Wherfore the text is no way abuſed as you pretend in that after he began, I ſhew frō theſe places that he grew to be mightily aſtoniſhed & grievouſly perplexed. As for Ierom, if he deny this, I muſt crave leaue to diſſent from him. I bring (you ſay)“Pag. 29… a fardell of phraſes to expreſſe his Agonie, he was amazed, astoniſhed, forgetfull, distempered, overwhelmed, and all confounded in the powers of his ſoule, and ſenſes of his body? Yea, and I thinke all to little ſufficiētly to expreſſe our Lords ſufferings for vsus. All thoſe words w^ch I vſed and many mo cannot ſhew all that vnſpekeable vehemēcy of Sorrow, which now caſt him into ſuch a plight. So far of it is, that*Pag. 28… I do the Lord of glory wrong: when I labour but to ſhew how he loved vsus, and to what baſenes of our nature he ſubmitted him ſelf for our ſake. For al theſe are but meere effects of natures infirmitie, if it be oppreſſed with any infinit ſorrow & feare. Seeing then Chriſt might be and was nowe thus infinitly afflicted (as we have ſhewed) why ſhould we feare to acknowledge extreame Effectes in him, where we have extreame Cauſes. Nay, God forbid that we ſhould reioyce in any thing ſo much, neither can wee praiſe & magnify him for any thing ſo highly, as we may & ought for this extreame " abaſing of Chriſte for vsus.… Pilip. 2.…. Remember your owne wordes out of Auſtin: that there is in ſom men Inſipiens honoriſicentia, a fond intent of honoring Christ. If there be any ſuch, ſurely this is one point thereof which you maintaine. M^r Calvin, a worthy Miniſter of Chriſt,…alvin …ath. …6. and a pillar of the Church, is bolde and ſaith: Fatemur certe hanc eſſe crucis ſtultitiam quae ſcandaloest ſuperbis hominibus. We conſeſſe indeed ſuch is the baſenes and folly of Christes Croſſe, that proud men cannot away with it. In another place where I ſhewed from the more to the leſſe,…eat. …. pa. 57 howe Chriſte might have (for the ſuddain) the powers of his minde aſtoniſhed, and yet no decay in him of faith, nor of obedience, nor of patience, nor of louelove; like as there is not in a man benummed & bound in his ſenſes more then Chriſt was; namely in a man a ſleepe or amazed with a violent blow on the head. For thus any reaſonable man would hauehave conceaved me: ſeeing who would imagine that I thought Chriſt now to be altogeather ſo without ſenſe as one that ſleepeth or that lyeth in a ſwoune? Heerevpon you aske me skoffingly,Pag. 299. a was Christ a ſleepe, or in a ſwoune? b cast into a traunce, Pag. 120.or c in a fit of a Lethargie. But what I doe thinke of Chriſts Agonie I hauehave ſaid before.Pag. 121. Indeed, as d you grant that Amazednes and Aſtoniſhment commeth naturally from ſorrowes and feares: and that,Pag. 293. both in theſe cauſes and effects there be divers degrees: ſo I thinke in Chriſt both the one and the other was in the extreameſt and moſt violent degree that might be. And therefore no marvaile though his Aſtoniſhmēt were far greater, then is to be ſeene in any man ells that ever was or ſhalbee. The Lorde made Solomon to excell all others in e wiſedome, 1. Chro. 1.12.and riches, and treaſures, and honour, ſo, that there hath not ben the like among the Kings which were before him, neither after him ſhall there bee the like. Of Chriſt (I iudge) we may altogither as truly and as fully ſay, that the Lord made him ſo ſubiect to infirmities & to ſuffering of ſorrows that there hath not ben the like among mē which were before him, neither after him ſhall there be the like. And yet none of thoſe your former imputations are true.Pag. 300. But f for my life I cannot anſwer this that followeth, All that Christ ſuffered was and muſt be meritorious with God. The ſuffering of Hell paines which aſtoniſh and confound all the powers of the Soule and ſenſes of the Body, neither was, nor could be meritorious with God. Therefore Christ ſuffered not ſuch paines as did astoniſh and confound his bodily ſenſes, and powers of his Soule. I deny your Aſſumption. Not only all Chriſts paines were meritorious, but even all his very infirmities alſo: his wearines, his hunger, his ſleepe, and ſo his aſtoniſhment & amazednes (being in him but a meere natural weaknes and infirmity) was exceeding meritorious in him and highly accepted with God. Man hath his meere infirmities all agreeable to Gods will: but Chriſt directly and properly glorified God in and by them more then can bee vttered, I ſay, in every point whatſoever of his Humane infirmity and baſenes, wherevnto hee humbled himſelfe. If it ſeeme a hard phraſe which in my former Treatiſe I vſed, ſaying Chriſt at this inſtant became forgetfull of that which before he knew: my meaning is (and ſo ſtill I ſpeake now) he remembred not, he conſidered not. Which many times wee vſe to name forgetting: but indeed ſtrictly and properly it is rather not remembring. Where you wouldhPag. 296. wring out a contrariety in my wordes, as if I had ſaid: That Chriſt being in the depth of his aſtoniſhment did then perfitly know that the dominion of death ſhould not hold him: you doe mee wrong, I ſay not ſo. In that place I argue from your ſuppoſitiō, that if Chriſt were now not aſtoniſhed, but in his perfit memory and full conſidering of ſuch thinges (as you ſeeme to affirme, but I deny) which otherwiſe hee knew well, then it could not be the Dominion of death that hee thus feared, ſith in his firme eſtate he knew perfitly that it ſhould not prevaile over him. To conclude this matter: thus we may ſee how without colour of reaſoniPag. 297. you wreſt a plaine text, which otherwiſe taken (as it lyeth) maketh ſtrongly againſt you. They are our Saviours Chriſts owne words,kIoh. 12. Now is my ſoule troubled: & what ſhall I ſay? Father ſave me from this hower: but therfore came J vntounto this hower. You ſay theſe words do import a Deliberation of 2. partes. But you ſpeak againſt all reaſon, conſidering the nature and frame of the very words. A Deliberation muſt needes bee ſet interrogatively in both clauſes, thus: What ſhall I ſay? Father, ſave me from this hower? Now the text is not ſo: it pretendeth a plaine reſolution, or at leaſt a great inclining toward reſolution, thus: Father, ſave me frō this hower. It can not be a Deliberation. Chryſoſtom and Epiphanius do deſcant about it, trying how the text may beare ſuch a meaning: but it cannot ſtand being ſo evidently againſt the courſe of the text.Chryſoſt. …b; Lacet turbatio d…e…e … ſerva… contrari… tamen …o. You ſay, S. Iohn beere ſpeaketh of another time and place. What then? Yet he may ſpeake of the ſame matter, namely of his Paſſion, or of a Foretaſt thereof. Which indeed the text it ſelfe m ſheweth that he did ſpeake of. Wherefore neither can we deny,…oh. 12.31.….33. & all titers heer…pon. but this place of Scripture (even as the other about his Praying in the Garden) doth ſurely confirme that his Paſſion was more then meere bodily, which did ſo miraculouſly terrifie him. It could be no leſſe then the paines of the infinit wrath of God vponupon his Soule. Hence alſo I reaſoned effectually n before,Treat. 1. pa. 1. 63. but no where you anſwer it; If Chriſts ſuch ſufferinges in his Soule were ordayned of God for him, then moſt certainly indeede he did ſuffer the ſame. Nowe we ſee ſuch ſufferings were ordained for him: ſeeing he ſaith, but therefore came I vntounto this hower. Therefore moſt certainly indeed hee did ſuffer them, at one time or other.

Yet further you except,Pa. 22 23. …oo, &c where you avouch that this was a Feare of Eternall death and Euerlasting damnation which cauſed in Chriſt this Agonie: and from his feare he was deliuered. Ergo, hee ſuffered not that which he feared. Firſt I graunt indeed this was the 2. Death, the death of the ſoule, or Hell tormentes which Chriſt heere b feared: neither can this by any meanes be denied, as anon we ſhall ſee. Howbeit to ſay (as you do) that it was Eternall death and Euerlasting malediction which heere Chriſt thus woefully & diſtresfully feared, is the ſtrangeſt ſpeach in Divinitie that ever I heard. See: you can not helpe youe ſelfe in making Chriſtes feare of this Death to be onelyonly a c religious feare, Pag. 23.& d a feare for others. Theſe imaginations I hauehave removed e before.Pag 304. Every Reader will eaſily ſee in his owne iudgemēt that theſe affections ſo vehement were not likely at this ſeaſon,Pag 93 94. &c. nor likely in him at all, much leſſe likely to be Cauſes of ſuch Effectes. Againe theſe are not Feare properly: they ought rather to bee called (as they are) a religious Care, Commiſeraetion and pitie. Which differ greatly from the nature of Feare properly taken, ſuch as we ought to cōceave in this place.Pag. 305. You thinke the f nature of eulabia will not admit any proper Feare, & namely no perplexed Feare, as I take it heere to ſignifie: but a carefull & diligent regard to beware and decline that which we miſlike or doubt. What ſay you? Did Chriſt doubt Eternall Damnation, and therefore Feared it? you ſpeak ſo darklie, that I know not how to take you. But it may be you meane hee him ſelfe miſliked it only, and was ſorry for others who ran headlong into it. But all this ſtill is nothing els ſave Piety in him properlie: yea and ſo you ſay this cometh nearest to the ſignification of the Greek word. I graunt it doeth touching Eulabia: but in Mark theal…ktham… ber…tha…. word doth import properly Feare, and that in extreamitie. Againe touching Eulabia; my reaſon that heere it ſignifieth Feare properly, yea a perplexed feare, and not not only a religious devotion as you ſay, is groūded not ſo much on the nature of the word, as on the Circumſtances and the other words of this Text:*Heb. 5.7 Christ in the dayes of his fleſh offered vp prayers and ſupplications with ſtrong crying and teares vntounto him that was able to ſave him from Death, and was heard in that which he feared. Heere theſe other words doe ſhewe that this Feare was more then a carefull regard to beware that which he miſliked: it was no leſſe in deed then a perplexed and troubled feare wofully dreading that which he was to ſuffer. Which alſo the ſtrange and wonderfull ſignes thereof in the Garden do more then cōfirme: as I hauehave ſhewedbPag. 11… 116. 127 often. Thus my meaning is that the nature of eulabia admitting the ſenſe ſom time of Feare properly, admitteth heere this ſenſe, yea of neceſſitie it muſt admit it for the reaſon noted aboue. Howbeit I grant the Apoſtle may intend this alſo by the nature of this worde, that Chriſt notwitſtanding all this dreadfull feare, yet (being meerely naturall in him) it declined not a jot from Piety nor from a moſt reverend regard of obedience to God, which ſtill in all this his perplexitie he kept firme and ſafe. This he may withall (I grant) inſinuat: yet the other proper feare & grievous dread muſt needs be admitted. To like effect this worde ſignifieth in that place of thecAct. 23. Actes: as the Circūſtances there alſo will cōfirme. Now then this being in Chriſt a proper and moſt vehement feare: where you argue Chriſt was delivered from his feare of Hell torments or the Death of the Soule. Ergo he ſuffered them not. I deny your ſequele. This proveth directly the contrary. He feared the Death of the Soule; ſpecially he thus feared it. Ergo hee did ſuffer it. For Feare being of that which is to come, asdPag. 30… you well obſerve. Ergo ſeeing Chriſt feared (yea in ſuch maner) the Death of the Soule, it ſurely came vntounto him: namely either now, or before he dyed in the fleſh, or both now & then alſo. For he might well ſuffer it evē now, and yet feare it more enſuing. Yea ſuch a maner & meaſure of Feare, as this manifeſtly was, could not be but a very Suffering of theſe ſpirituall ſorrowes. Which alſo that ſheweth where hee ſaith, My Soule is full of (actuall) ſorrowes even vntounto death, &c. Neither is there in this any a doubt full word, Pag. 304.which is your maner of writing:Pag. 296. nor b device vnfit for Divinity, but your Cōpariſons of c fearing Captivitie, Pag. 301.looſing a purſe, &c. are very vnfit to be matched with this feare in Chriſt.Pag. 302. You thinke this was but a d ieſt, if God be ſaid to have heard Chriſt and deliuered him from that he feared, and yet to let him ſuffer it. Forſooth no ieſt: for he doubtles ſuffered it as before we hauehave ſeene. Nowe nevertheles GOD might well heare him 2. wayes: 1. by ſufficient ſuſtayning him in it: 2. by delivering him out of it in due time: In one place you ſeeme to obſerve a point both ſtrange, and very contrary to your ſelfe,Pa. 118. 119 in ſaying, e Feare is more intollerable in Christ thē doubting. Is feare ſo intollerable a thing for him, when as you hauehave ſo often and ſo earneſtly affirmed that he feared,Pa. 22. 124. and for f feare became thus aſtoniſhed?Pag. 303. Where * you ſeeke a weake advantage in that I ſaid eiſakoustheis may ſeeme to ſhew that Chriſt was heard being in that which he was ſaved from: you ſee I challenge no certaine but a ſeeming reaſon from that worde. But your ſelfe maketh a ſtranger cōcluſion. Ergo the Active referred to God importeth that God being in the ſame Paines did heare him. Laſtly you ſay, g Indeed but in the Garden Christ never prayed with ſtrong cryes & teares to be ſaved frō Death, Pag. 22:that we read in the Scriptures. I hope neither doe you read expreſlie in the Scriptures at all, that thus he prayed in the Garden. You may ſoundly gather it from the Scriptures, I graunt,Ioh. 12.27. and ſo you may, that his praying h before was of the ſelf ſame nature and maner, alſo after in that moſt dolefull complaint on the Croſſe, when he cryed My God, my God, why hast thou forſaken me. Where the very like requeſt is plainlie implyed, as he made in the Garden when he ſaide; Let this Cup paſſe from. Ieb. 5.7.So that the i Apoſtle in all reaſon may bee vnderſtoode to have reſpect to all theſe tymes and wofull cryes of our Saviour Chriſt.Pag. 30. And thus it is without all reaſon that you ſay k his Agonie ended in the Garden: Pa. 115. 116and that on the Croſſe hee had l alwayes perſiſtance in ioy without obſcuration or intermiſſion. Likewiſe alſo that otherwiſe his aſtoniſhment muſtaPag. … continue 18. howers from his entering into the Garden after ſupper to the ending of his life the next day at 3. of the clocke after noone. Howe vaine is this conſequence? how falſe are theſe ſayings, and contrary to Scripture in all the circumſtances. But you ſay,bPa. 30. the cauſe cōtinuing, the effect could not ceaſe. The Cauſe was, Gods leaving his weake nature in theſe ſorrowes at ſomtimes more, at ſometimes leſſe: alſo he is to be thought to reveale and inflict the very ſorrowes not alwayes in one tenor, but ſometime more ſometime leſſe: finally his Manhood apprehended theſe arrowes of Gods wrath ſometime more ſuddainly, then at other times. Theſe were the true cauſes of his Aſtoniſhment: but theſe continued not 18. howers togeather, therefore the effect was not to cōtinue ſtill in that maner on him. Then youcPag. 29 ſay, in the vttering of theſe wordes the Cup did paſſe from him, by my owne confeſſion. I cōfeſſe it not. But I confeſſe his extreame astoniſhment did even quickly paſſe from him: yet the ſenſe and taſt of that Cup might continue longer, in ſuch a maner and meaſure, as he was better inabled by his Deitie to ſuſtaine it. Now what ill is there in theſe conceites, I pray you. What folly is there in them? Againſt vsus heerein you doe nothing els almoſte in your large Treatiſe,Iniuriou… ſ…eache… but heape vp many and moſt falſe imputarions: That we thinke Chriſt was indPag. … 116. 1… doubt and feare of Gods favour, ePag. 1…destitute of faith, hope, love, ioy, forſaken of Gods favour, grace, Spirit: thatfPag. … he continued 18. howres togeather amazed as it were in a trance: that hegPag. … vehemently and often ſtrugled and ſtrived in his prayers against the knowen will of God, & ſought by all meanes to decline the worke for which he came into the world: His fleſh feared death, though his Spirit ſubmitted it ſelf to the will of his heavenly Father: hPag. …We put Christ beſides him ſelfe when it pleaſeth vsus, that he knew not what he prayed, nor prayed in faith. Your L. if you had reaſons but any thing probable, wanteth not outward meanes enough to commend your cauſe: you neede not to deviſe againſt vsus ſuch groſſe and baſe vntruths. But it bewrayeth how deſperat your matter is, which can not come foorth nor make any ſhew to the world, without ſuch proppes to leane on. Beſides that which heere in ſeverall places wee hauehave declared to the cōtrary, in ouriPag. 5… 70. 71. former Treatiſe we ſhewed our minde though briefly, yet ſufficientlie againſt theſe iniurious ſpeaches. How you ſeeme to avouch that Chriſt was by God forſaken in a Body,… 114.116.…2.103. …ore …. but not in b Soule, let them declare that can. For my part I know not your ſecret therein. I am ſure no man can in trueth maintaine it. As for c Ambroſ…, 114. …e pag. 113. 128. 1…0 …. 1. of y^e …ion See …re pag.you wreſt him as you did Hilary, &c d before. After this you are bold, and aske if e any dare doubt of your doctrine? Yea ſurely, I dare not but doubt of it. Alſo we have ſeene that the publike f authoriſed doctrine in England dareth to doubt of it. Which maketh Chriſtes putting him ſelfe betweene Gods Wrath and our ſinnes a parte divers from his bodily death on the Croſſe,…ore pag. …. yet the extreameſt part of his Paſſion. See alſo other g authoriſed teſtimonies heereof. But why may not any dare doubt of your doctrine?Pet. 2. Becauſe the Scripture ſaith, h Chriſt ſuffered for vsus. leaving vsus an example that we ſhould followe his ſteppes, &c. And this is very true alſo: the godly doe followe his ſteppes heerein (many times) as I i ſhewed you before.…at. 1. pa. & heere 120.129. Some are conformable in ſome meaſure with Chriſte even in theſe his ſufferings. Then k you ſay, we ought to be glad and reioyce thereof. I anſwer, we ought to turne them to ioy & gladnes, though not properly to be glad of them. Nay we ought moſt inſtantly to pray againſt them. No affliction at all is good in it owne nature: and the greateſt of all is good to Gods children by his grace. So that touching this vſe of them, therein wee are to reioyce: even when we are moſt bruized and pearced in our ſoules with the terrours of God. Laſtlie,… 134. l you frame an obiection againſt your ſelfe, which you neither doe nor can anſwer: Christs ſoule might feele the tormentes of Hell for the time without any diſtrust or doubting of his ſalvation, or our redemption. You pretend thïs anſwer: The eſſentiall tormentes of Hell are the abſolute loſſe of Gods kingdom everlastingly, and that m Eternall continuance is of the nature and ſubstance of Hell. But we ſhew you,….53. although the damned are in Hell torments everlaſtingly, and of neceſſitie ſo muſt bee: yet eternall continuance in them, and to feele them but for a time, are indeed but Circumſtances, not of the eſſence or nature of Hell tormentes. Gods proper and extreame wrath only and his ſharpeſt vengeance for ſinne is the eſſence or nature of Hell paines. Which (againſt the Damned indeed is eternall, and vnſatisfyable: but lighting on Chriſt it was not eternall, becauſe it was ſatisfyable. Wherefore it is plaine that you have anſwered in effect nothing to your owne obiectiō.

Thus far we have gone, ſhewing that weaPag. 2 neither extende the cauſe of Christes Agonie to far in affirming it to have com of moſt bitter & extreame Paines which he ſuffred properly for our ſinns: neither that we cōtinue it to long in affirming that he felt the ſame moſt extreamely on the Croſſe. Contrariwiſe that you curtaile it to ſhort, when you ſay it was no more butbPag. 1 290. Devotion to God and Compaſſion to men: alſo that Chriſtes Agonie touched himcPa. 11… not at all on the Croſſe. So thatdBefore 90.91.116. our Maine argument which you would hauehave fruſtrated, ſtandeth firme and good ſtill: that ſeeing his Agonies, Paines, and Feares were ſuch & ſo great (as the Scripture by the effects & ſignes ſheweth that they were) both before his death and at his death, therefore they were more then meere bodily paines and more then meere bodily death: much leſſe were his Holy and Religious affections the proper and ſpeciall Cauſe thereof. But (of neceſſity) they were the Paines proceeding from the infinit and ſharpe Iuſtice of God which Chriſt truly ſuffered in his Spirit, and Soule and Body.

After thisaPag 3… Touchi… Death o… Soule. you ſet vehemently againſt my laſt argument, That Chriſt ſuffered in ſome ſorte the death of the Soule. Firſt if wee ſhould ſpeake ſtrictly after the maner of Death in the Body, then no man is ſo mad or fooliſh as to ſay that any mans Soul can dye at all: that is, want life and ſenſe, as a dead body doth. Thus the very damned ſoules in Hell ſuffer not death. But ſuch a death as immortall ſoules are ſubiect ſubiect vntounto, is Gods ſeparation frō them. And this is 2. folde. The 1. death and the 2. death, as the Scripture ſpeaketh. The 1. is the ſeparation of them from Gods grace, which is in this life by ſinne raigning in them. The 2. death is Gods leaving them in the feeling of the moſt ſharpe and moſt vehemēt paines inflicted by Gods iuſtice for ſinne. This laſt kind of death is ſo called and named in many places ofbEzek. Gen. 2… Rom. 6… 2. Cor. & 3.7.5.20. a… 1. Ioh. 17. Scripture. It hath alſo a double conſideration. Firſt, ordinarily and commonly it belongeth only to the Damned for their owne inherent ſinne, where withall are the ordinary Accidents and cōcomitants togeather, Deſperation, induration, blaſpheming, vtter darkenes, &c. with Perpetuitie of puniſhment, and that locally in Hell. In this ſenſe the Fathers generally do take it, where they deny that Chriſt ſuffered the death of the Soule: and ſo likewiſe do we. Secondly, The death of the ſoule, or the 2. death may be extraordinarily and ſingularly conſidered, namely to imply no more but ſimply the very nature and eſſenſe of it.… Death the Soule …riſt taſted That is, the feeling of moſt deadly infinit paines inflicted by God himſelfe in his proper iuſtice for ſinne, all ſenſe alſo of his comfortable preſenſe being taken away. This is a Death to the Soul,…g. 113. …ag. 135. 6. …ag. 112. 3. as * before we have ſhewed: according to this ſenſe the " Scriptures & † Fathers before noted may rightly be vnderſtood not to deny it in Chriſt: ſo that this kind of Death in the ſoule (but none other) we may ſafely ſay, Chriſt did ſuffer for our ſinne imputed to him. Moreover, let it be obſerved: that if wee had no proofes at all in Scripture for this point, yet our Queſtion is fully proved & cōfirmed notwithſtanding by thoſe other ſufficient & pregnant proofes alleaged & iuſtified before. For it is be to noted, that no man ſetteth the queſtiō in theſe termes, That Christ dyed in his ſoule, neither doe we at all vſe them very much in ſpeaking of this matter. We do, only when ſome ſpeciall occaſion draweth it from vsus: neither then do we vtter it in thoſe termes but with vſing ſome further declaration of our minde. The reaſon of this warynes is, becauſe we are not ignorant how ambiguous the phraſe is, and how apt to be miſtaken, ſpecially where men liſt to cavill. Alſo people vntaught and vnſetled in conſtruing the ſcriptures ſenſe do quickly take offenſe at thinges, which they ought better to digeſt. So that you doe very iniuriouſly to grate ſtill one this phraſe of ſpeach and to ſtraine it to the worſt, as you do: as if by no meanes it could beare any good ſenſe, and as if we built our maine Aſſertion onelyonly heerevpon. Which in truth is nothing ſo. The ſame alſo doe we affirme touching our vſing (in this matter) the phraſe of Chriſts ſuffering Hell paines. Both theſe phraſes are but ſeldome and reſpectively vſed by vsus. Howbeit we deny not, but that both theſe phraſes may be well and rightly applyed vntounto Chriſt on occaſion,…g 16. 52. …. & 113. as * before is obſerved: & may both ſerve truly and moſt emphatically to expreſſe the infinitnes of the paines and ſorrowes of his ſuffering for vsus. Yea this very phraſe of death extended in Chriſt further then to his meere bodily dying, hath (I doubt not) expreſſe ground in the Scripture: and therefore may the better be vſed ſoberly, & admitted charitably. You will aske where is there any ſcripture,Proofes. that Chriſte ſuffered any other death then that meerely of his body? I anſwer, Firſt, conſider well that to the c Hebr.…ebr. 5.7. Hee offered vp prayers and ſupplications with ſtrong crying & teares to him that was able to ſave him from death. It is not poſſible that this Death heere ſhould be his meere bodily Death, which he ſo wofully and impotently feared: as I hauehave before ſufficiently cōfirmed. Therefore it was the death of the ſoule, the 2. Death which heere is vnderſtood to have thus mightily afflicted Chriſt. Which alſo your own ſelfe dodPag. … fully grant and affirme with me. Yea you affirme further then we doe, or then the truth is, or poſſibly can be. You ſay Chriſt heere thus feared Eternall death and Everlasting damnation. What a ſpeach is this? Chriſt could not poſſibly feare in ſuch wofull maner that, which he perfitly knew ſhould never come neere him. But he perfitly knew that eternall Death, and the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction ſhould never touch him. He knew and ſaw that this by Gods almighty and vnchangeable Decree was ſet further from him then the Eaſt is from the Weſt, yea then Hell is from Heavē. Therefore he could not by any meanes poſſibly feare eternall death, nor pray in ſuch ſort againſt it. Againe, that which he feared, and ſo pitifully prayed againſt was that, which he knew was by GodeIohn 12 ordayned for him. Yea Feare alwayes is of that which is to come. But Eternall death was not by God ordayned for him: that was“Which Chriſt … right w… not to come vntounto him. Therfore it was not Eternall death which he ſo feared. Finally when in the Garden he prayed againſt that Cup which he feared, that it might paſſe from him, there he yeeldeth and ſubmitteth himſelfe preſently to the vndergoing of it. But it were, I know not what, to ſay, that Chriſt did ever yeeld and ſubmit himſelfe to vndergo Eternall death, or to taſt the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction. Therefore it was not this, that he feared & heere prayed againſt. And yet it was I grant the Death of the Soule, or the 2. Death: that is ſimply the eſſenſe thereof, Gods withdrawing himſelfe from him in the Paines and torments thereof. This onelyonly it was,He ſuffer that deat… which he feared. not the eternity thereof nor ſinfull concomitants, which he thus feared. And this (for the infinitnes of it) naturally he could not but feare, yea and that ſo extreamely: alſo he fearedf…ôzein for him ſelfe, as knowing it to be ordayned for him. So that hence it followeth invincibly, that Chriſt in deed ſuffered (ſith he thus feared) more then the meere bodily Death, even the Death of the ſoule. For he could not (I ſay) thus*Much yeeld to i… he did: ſ… ing, Thy … don. feare, but he muſt needs know that it was to come or might com vntounto him:…wed fur… before 131.132 if he but knew that it might come, then it * certainly did come vntounto him, at one time or other in his Paſſion before he… left the world. See: to the Hebr. g Christ aboliſhed through death him that had the power of death that is the Divell, and ſo delivered all them which for feare of death were all their life time ſubiect to bondage. …b. 2.14.Heere I ſee no reaſon in the world but that the Apoſtle by …his often repeating of death, and by mutuall referring of it in one place (as it were) to the other, doth vnderſtand & ſignifie one and the ſame death altogeather. But it is the death of the Soule which the Divell hath the power and execution of, alſo the death of the ſoule chiefly ſinful men were held in feare of all their life long. It followeth then (I ſuppoſe) that even through this death of the Soule Chriſt aboliſhed the Divell, and deliveted his children. Specially ſeeing there is no enormity nor impoſſibilitie heerein. Againſt this you hauehave no reaſon at all but wordes and wreſtings, and vaine oſtentation of Fathers; none of them all denying our ſenſe. Third: it ſeemeth alſo, that Peter teacheth this ſame,Pet. 3.18. ſaying, k Chriſt in his ſuffering was don to death in the Fleſh, but made alive by the Spirit. Where Death may be very well referred both to the Soule and Body of Chriſt. Becauſe the text heere ſpeaketh (as I iudge) of the whole and entire ſufferings of Chriſt. And it is manifeſt by that before, that Chriſt did ſuffer not in his body only but properly and immediatly alſo in his Soule: we hauehave ſeene alſo that the * phraſe of Death,… 135.136 or Dying, may in a good ſenſe be applyed even to Chriſtes Soule. Againe, this word Fleſh (it ſeemeth) can not heere in this place be vnderſtood to ſignifie onelyonly the Body of Chriſt, but even both partes of his Humane nature, thar is the reaſonable Soule and the body. My reaſon is, becauſe whereſoever in ſcripture the Fleſh and the Spirit are noted oppoſitly togeather in Chriſt,…m. 1.3, 4. …im. 3.16 …oh 4.2. … 1.14. …or. 5.7. & …4 & 1.4.1. …g. 320. there the i Fleſh ſignifieth alwayes his whole Humanity, even both partes thereof, the Soule alſo & not the Body only: the Spirit ſignifieth his Deity, or Divine power. Now what have you againſt this? Nothing of waight but floutes and mockes, that k this obſervation is made out of the hinder part… of my head, &c. But what pretend you againſt it? Some Scripture palpably abuſed. Firſt " Mathew, where Chriſt ſpeaketh of his Diſciples that their Spirit (their inward regenerat man) was ready to watch,…ath. 26. but their Fleſh (their corrupt nature) was weak & ſluggiſh. What is this to Chriſtes Fleſh and Spirit. Thinke you that Chriſts Soule was willing to ſuffer as God had appointed, but that his Fleſh reſiſted? Verily ſo you ſeeme heere to vnderſtand:An vntr… conceit and it is as likely, as your applying of Fleſh and Spirit to Chriſt in your pag. 104. ThenaLuk. 2. Luke; where both Spirit and Fleſh are not intended of Chriſt (as our obſervation before requireth) but only the Fleſh. Then the Romanes: where I affirme thatbRom. Fleſh ſignifieth the whole Manhood of Chriſt according to the which he came from David even as well as Salomō or Nathan did, who were Davids ſonnes in their entire and perfit nature. So likewiſe Chriſte was kinne to the Iewes according to hiscRom. 9 whole Humanitie, aſwel asdver. 3. Paul was. And heere Paul meaneth him ſelfe to be kinne to them according to Nature wholly, & that only by Regeneration in the Goſpell he was differing from them. Now Nature oppoſed to Grace and regeneration, hath reference both to Soule and Body in a man. Howſoever the Soule cometh in Generation, that is not heere conſidered; neither is it neceſſarily to the purpoſe. Which difficulty alſo your ſelfe hauehave vtterly*Pag. 2… renoūced before, to make it any argument for you in this matter. Thus yet the Fleſh and the Spirit thus oppoſed heere in Chriſt, ſhall ſignifie the whole Manhood and Godhead in him. Further, that whichePa. 32 you bring out of thef2. Cor… Corinthians compared with this in Peter, doeth moſt fitlie and clearely open and confirme the ſame: Hee was crucified touching his infirmitie, but liveth by the power of God. His infirmitie the text heere nameth Metonimically vnderſtanding in Chriſt that, in which his infirmities were. Now his Soule had infirmities of ſuffering in it, as well as his body. Therefore his Soule alſo is vnderſtood heere that it was Crucifyed and dyed, that is according to the condicion thereof, as likewiſe his body according to the condicion thereof. And thus that which Paul calleth infirmitie, Peter calleth Fleſh; and that which Paul calleth the power of God, Peter calleth the Spirit. That is, his Deitie is ſet oppoſitly in both theſe places to his whole Humanitie, even to body and ſoule.Aug. de 4.13. To which purpoſe that place alſo to the“Rom. Romanes doth ſerve, where the like oppoſition is found (as I have ſhewed) betwene the Fleſh and the Spirit in Chriſt, that is his Manhood and Godhead. Other reaſons alſo*Treat 137.1… I hauehave noted ſerving well heerevnto (as the 4, 5, and 6.) but I omit to rehearſe them againe. For it ſeemeth your ſelfe agreeth with vsus in them:…g. 324. holding a expreſly that the Spirit heere in Peter is the Deitie of Chriſt according to Austins iudgement. Now this being granted and acknowledged, that the Spirit heere ſignifieth Chriſtes Godhead, how can it be likely but that the other oppoſit part the Fleſh, muſt needes import his whole and intire Manhood. Verily thus it ſeemeth moſt plaine that Peter heere diſtributeth the whole and abſolute perſon (both God and Man) into theſe Natures, the Fleſh and the Spirit. Wherfore I can not thinke, but that the Apoſtle heere vnderſtandeth by Fleſh the whole and intire Manhood of Chriſt, even his Soule and his body. Now this being ſo, then it followeth by the text that Chriſt in his Paſſion was don to death both in Soule,Pag. 320. & body. Heere " you obiect, that thus I make all the attributes of the body common to the Soule. Nay forſooth, that I doe not. Nor yet this attribute of Dying vnderſtood in ſuch ſort and maner, as the Body properly dyeth: that is to become without life and ſenſe. I aſcribe Death to both, but yet according to the divers condicion and ſtate of both.…reat. 1. P…g. 78. And thus you might vnderſtand my b meaning to be, where I ſay it is abſurd & falſe that Chriſt was made aliue in his Humane Soule: that is, it neither loſt nor recovered life and ſenſe, ſo as his body did.…e before … 135, 136 Howbeit as Death is oftentymes attributed to mens ſoules in the c Scripture, that is the feeling of the extreame wrath of God and the puniſhment for ſinne, ſo d I make Death commō both to Chriſtes Soule and body,…eat. 1. …g. 79. even to his whole and intire humane Nature. Which if you do not acknowledge, the ſhame of ab ſurditirie and cōtrarietie which in your fancy e you accuſe me of, that Chriſtes Soule dyed and dyed not, …g. 322. …3.will ſit neerer to you thē to me. Alſo in ſuch a ſenſe I deny not but Chriſt may be ſaid, that he was quickened in the Spirit, that is refreſhed and comforted againe in his Soule, and reſtored from that bottomles gulfe of ſorrowes to the lively feeling of heavenly ioyes and glory, which for a ſeaſon he had no ſenſe of at all. Howbeit though this ſenſe bee a true quickening in his Soule, yet I deny that heere in this place of Peter it can be tranſlated quickened in the Spirit meaning the Soule, becauſe Spirit heere in this oppoſition is ſet indeed for the Deitie of Chriſt, …d you with …ſtin doe …ſent.* as before I have ſhewed. Thus the matter I hope is cleere to reaſonable men, that Chriſtes Soule even according to the Scripture phraſe may be ſaid in ſome ſorte to have taſted and ſuffered Death, that is the extreameſt feelings of Gods wrath for ſinne, and the moſt vehement paines of the damned, though not as the damned doe in reſpect of the Accidents and concomitants of their ordinary damnation, but in a ſingular maner and extraordinarie way as became the ſonne of God and a ſinles man (yet a very mā being our Redeemer. Now beſides the matter you “Pag. 3gird at me in divers places: as where I ſay, The Death of the Soule is ſuch Paines and ſufferings of Gods wrath, as allwayes accompanie them that are ſeparated from the grace and love of God. Forfooth it is true, they are alwayes wicked whom theſe Paines doe accompanie ordinarily. They came vponupon Chriſt extraordinarilie: as inaTreat. … pag. 77. this place I expreſly noted. That was therfore my meaning here, if you would hauehave ſeene it. In another place alſobPag. 33. you know that I ſay, Hell as I take it (that is ſuch paines of Gods wrath) is*Treat. 1 pag. 80. ſometime found in this life. Thus then you might hauehave vnderſtood my former wordes: and not that the tormentes of Hell doe alwayes accompanie the wicked in this life. I pray conceave not my meaning, againſt my expreſſe wordes. AgainecPag 31… you pretende to hauehave much againſt me where I ſay, The feeling of the ſorrowes of Gods wrath due to ſinne in a broken and contrite heart, is indeed the only true and perfitly accepted ſacrifice to God. True, ſo I ſaid, and againe I ſay it. What ſee you amiſſe in it? Then vnhappy men are the godly which are at any time free from the paines of the damned. To what purpoſe is this? I ſpeake of Chriſts Sacrifice. I pray, is any other Sacrifice perfitly accepted? or a Sacrifice at all, but Secondarily, that is in and by Chriſtes Sacrifice? They are not. His Sacrifice then is the onelyonly true Sacrifice, and perfitly accepted to God. All others are imperfit, and accepted not in them ſelues but only in and by Chriſt. Thus your triumphes before the victorie, come to nothing but blaſtes of vanitie. But Augustin †Pag. 32doth flatly deny that this text can be thus vnderſtood, or that Chriſtes Soule might dy. Austin dEpiſt. 9…denyeth that Chriſt ſuffied any paines of damnation locally in Hell after his death, as it ſeemeth ſome helde about his time whō here he laboureth to confute. So that he meaneth to reprove onelyonly theeSee beſ… pag 139 1^ſt ſenſe of the Death of the Soule in him, viz. that he ſuffred it not Ordinarily after the maner of other men, nor any way locally. H… hath no n…ceſſarie cauſe to ſpeak of the 2. ſenſe thereof how the Soule may be ſaid to ſuffer death Extraordinarily for ſinne imputed only, neither doeth he ſpeake againſt that in Chriſt. Nay according to Austins owne Definition of the Soules Dying it will eaſily appeare that Chriſtes Soule may be ſaid to have ſuffered ſome kinde of Death.de verh …. Ser …0. … Trin. 4. Saith he a Moritur anima ſi recedit Deus: and b Mors est ſpiritûs deſeri à Deo. The Death of the Soule is Gods Forſaking of it. …fore pag. …. 113. …. 108. 113 …. 134.But the Scripture ſaith God did leave him, or forſake him for a ſeaſon: yea the Fathers alſo c agree fully therevnto: the maner how d I have ſhewed before. Therefore by Austins definition largly and rightly taken, Chriſt may be ſaid in ſome ſenſe to hauehave dyed in Soule. Howbeit though the Fathers doe graunt the thing in effect (as I have ſhewed) yet I acknowledge they doe deny this phraſe generally, and ſo doeth Austin in this place. But thereabout we never made queſtion: this is no parte of our matter. It may bee even for the ſame cauſe they ſhunned it, for which we alſo doe vſe it very rarely and warily, as " before I obſerved.Pag 136. And let this be the Anſwere touching all your Fathers and Councells, which you bring aboundantlie (heere and there) about this point of the Soules death. Though peradventure ſome of them may ſeeme to inſinuat even this very phraſe touching Chriſt ſometyme, as in ſome I touched before.

Where you ſay,…g. 317. † Aske the ſimplest child that is Catechized in my charge if I have any, what death Christ dyed for vsus, and hee will anſwer me out of his Creed, Christ was Crucified, Dead, & Buried. It is true: But our authorized Catechiſme publiſhed by M. Nowel, and the Homily i ſheweth the meaning heereof to be,… before …. 67.117.… that Chriſt ſuffered far more ſharply thē meere bodily Death, even the infinit paines of Gods wrath in his ſoul. W^ch I pointed you vntounto k before, but you fairly leape it over,…eat. 1. pa. …. as alſo the Archb. ſpeciall allowance (with others) of M. Now. Catechiſme as being fully grounded on the word of God & contayning the very doctrine of the Church of England. Now to this effect the youths in my charge being asked would have anſwered ſurely. For indeed ſuch a charge in London I had I thank God, wherin I hope I was faithfull according to my power, & might have cōtinued, had not your il ſeaſoned teaching ſo contrary to the eſtabliſhed doctrine in Englande burſt foorth.

a You ſay,…ag. 325. …a. 53.12. …r hee pow… …. I ſhould have don well to have laid that downe for a ſhew, which is written in Eſay, b He c laid downe his Soule vntounto death; verily if I had, it would have made ſom ſhew. Conſidering thatdPa. …6 you earneſtly affirme that this word ſignifieth Soule (or Spirit) in a proper ſenſe. Alſo how reſolute you are forbidding toePag. 1… divert from the native & proper ſignifications of words, but when the letter impugneth the groundes of Christian faith and charity. This conſidered, ſurely that in Eſay maketh ſome ſhew indeede, that Chriſt ſubmitted, and humbled, and afflicted, even his Soule to Death. The rather if we note that which followeth: He was counted with the ſinners, and bare the ſinne of many. That is, he was puniſhed by God as the ſinners arefSee beſ… pag. 76. puniſhed, and was not by the Iewes onelyonly counted among Theeves. But chiefly conſidering withall that alſo before,gIſa. 53.… He made his ſoule a ſinne offering. Heere you muſt remember,†Your pa. … we ſhall leave nothing ſound & ſure in Gods word, if we may avoid all thinges by figures, that pleaſe not our humours. Therefore you muſt needes grant that Gods worde heere maketh Chriſts Soule to be † ſacrificed for our ſinne. And we deſire no other death of the Soule. We deny not but this phraſe Animā p…nere is to lay downe the life, and in divers places ſignifieth no more then ſimply to Dy, both concerning Chriſt and other men: as you obſerve pag. 70. Yet this is no neceſſary reaſon, that heere in J ſay the Soule ſhould be taken figuratively, for the Life onelyonly: the rather ſeeing heere the text preciſely ſetteth down the great & perfit worke of our Redemptiō. And to take it as we do literally, impugneth no ground at all of faith or Charity. The like peradventure may bee affirmed alſo of that in Mathew,hMar 2… The ſonne of man came not to be ſerved but to ſerve, and to give his ſoule a ranſom for many: although the tranſlatours commonly turne it, his life. But I wil not ſtrive about theſe phraſes. Auſt. hath not a word againſt vsus in that great place whichiPag. 32… you cite: his whole argumēt there being to another purpoſe. The Iewes ſlew only the fleſh of Chriſt: and yet it is true that they ſlew Chriſt. Who doubteth this? Alſo, where you thinke thoſe words to be ſokPag. 327… plaine and expreſſe as may be ſpoken, ſo effectuall as Pauls heart could invent or his toung vtter, that Chriſt reconciled vsus to God in the body of his fleſh through death, we have anſwered you†Pag. 45.… before. As for al your other diſcourſe heere againſt me, it is as every where almoſt nothing but revilings, and reproches, and bitter skoffes. Yet you ſay,lPag 108. … you have not learned, nor vſed to give reviling ſpeaches. Have you not learned it? Is it then naturall vntounto you? Nay you meanemPag. 264… theſe are Fatherly Warnings and admonitions. If your Fatherly admonitions are ſuch, what are your Lordly rebukes? If theſe bee your Biſhoply bleſſinges, what are your Curſings? But I am to blame, heerein ſtandeth not the tryall of our quaeſtion. As for all th…ſe hogepots (as n… 3…8. you call them) which you make of my wordes, they are nothing but your owne either wilfull writhings, or vncharitable ſurmiſes: as by every particular in then places may be ſeene. Finally that is not true where you ſay,o…. 330. Fleſh doth often ſignifie the ſoule in vsus. It ſignifieth often the whole Manhood togither in vsus, and ſo it may and doth in Chriſt aſwell. Alſo it ſignifieth in vsus many times our whole and intire corrupt nature both in body and ſoule: ſo it never ſignifieth in Chriſt. And heere I deſire the reader to change a word or two in my former Treatiſe: Note. …reat. 1. pa. …6 lin. 2. …d. lin 7. … Cor. 7.1.for p allwayes to ſet vſually, and for q a man to ſet Christ. Becauſe ſince I find that Fleſh and Spirit togeather applyed vntounto men doe r once ſignifie meerely the Body and Soule: which then I thought every where did ſignifie in vsus our corrupt and regenerat man. Which overſight the Biſhop ſpyeth not, but in this place cōfirmeth indeed.

Finally to make an ende with your Fathers and Councels: it is ſtrang that you thus vainly boaſt of them,…. 135.327 ſaying they are a all wholy for you for this 1400. yeares ſpace. I have ſhewed before that your large claime proveth a very ſhort gaine. For in ſubſtance and full effect they are evidētly and generally againſt you, and for vsus. As for their denying that Chriſt Dyed in his Soule, I b have anſwered to that before.…ag. 135. …6. 142. Further where you bring them in many places ſaying, by his bloud only he redeemed vsus, and he ſuffered only in his Body: Fathers … handled.they are abuſed by you wonderfully. Not in their words, but in their meaning. For they ſtriving againſt Arians and ſuch other Haeretikes who would have Chriſts Deity to take part in his ſufferings for our redemption,…ee before …. 111.113 …4 &c. & ſo conſequently would prove it inferior to the Father, " the godly Ancient Writers do heerevpon ſay, he ſuffered & ſatisfyed for vsus only in his body, in his fleſh, &c: not excluding the proper & immediat ſufferinges of his Spirit, nor any paſſible part of his Manhood, but onelyonly his Godhead againſt thoſe Haeretikes: ſhewing thus alſo, that no other Creatu…e beſides him or with him ſatisfyed any way for vsus: altogeather after the Apoſtles like phraſe in many places. Let the Authors themſelves be viewed, if you thinke I affirme of them falſly. Tertullian and Cyrill will give a taſt heereof for all the reſt. Tertullians cPag. 3 …wordesdContr. … id est carnem, thas is to ſay Christs fleſh, are expreſly oppoſed to his Deity, not to his Soul: ſo that evidently he meaneth thereby his whole and intire paſſible Manhood. If hee had meant to exclude any parte or faculty of his Soule from ſuffering, as he doth his Godhead, he had confirmed that Haereſy againſt w^ch he ſtriveth, as f before I noted.ePag. 1… Alſo it ſeemes he yeeldeth the name of Death to this ſuffering of Chriſtes whole Manhood, in ſaying Quod vnctum est mortuum ostendit: that Dyed which receaved the Annoynting. For I hope his ſpirit was Annointed with the Holy Ghoſt, aſwell as his Fleſh. And he ſaith thus, as indefinitly, ſo alſo by way of oppoſitiō to his Deity, as I ſaid: therefore he meaneth the whole Manhood dyed. Howbeit in what ſort this might be, I ſhewed*pag. 113… 135. 136… before. My falſe trāſlating of him which you note, is not worth the noting. But you doe worſe in falſe placing thoſe his laſt rehearſed words for advantage: in Tertull. they are vſed more generally in their owne place coming long before thoſe words, after which you ſet them. As for that Denique poſuit ſpiritū, &c. it ſheweth that Chriſts bodily death alſo (but not only) came by reaſon of Gods forſaking and ſeparating from him. For before we ſaw how Tertull. expreſly attributeth Gods Derelectiō both to his*Haec v… animae & poris. ſoule & body on the Croſſe: though you grudg thereat. Thus (I ſay) he excepteth only his Godhead from Dereliction and Suffering &c. Cyrill alſo even in that book which you cite for you, ſheweth that he excludeth but Chriſts Deity, though he mention only his ſuffering in Fleſh:†Ad Reg lib. 1. Carne paſſum dicit, docens patiendi ineffabilem naturam a paſſionibus alienam. Deus igitur Christus Divinè quidem impaſſibilis, paſſibilis ſecundum carnem. He excludeth only the Deity from ſuffering, when he ſaith, hee ſuffered in his Fleſh. In a word, ſo do all the reſt, ashPag. 1… before is partly noted. Againſt NeſtoriusiPag. 33… they affirme the vnion of Chriſtes Natures, with preſerving the properties of each. They therefore hold not his only bodily ſufferings. Is this then your great boaſt of all the Fathers and Councells? Nay, are they well vſed at your hands, to be thus drawn cleane from their purpoſe to an opinion which they never thought of? Is this good dealing towards Gods people, to tell them that the Fathers generally teach the only bodily ſufferings of Christ, and deny our Aſſertion of his Soules peculiar ſuffering,…efore 47.48.66.71.88.112. which * they iuſtifie & confirme indeed? Yea, this … the profit that comes by ordinary ſlanting with Fathers, which vſe many do frequent in theſe dayes. Think they, if the ſcriptures alone ſuffice not for all thinges in Religion, that the Fathers will ſuffice? Or if the Fathers make a ſenſe vponupon ſome text, that therefore this muſt be the right meaning alwayes? Or if the Scriptures may be wreſted by ſubtile heades, that yet the Fathers cannot? Or that Gods people may ſooner ſee and finde when the Fathers are abuſed, then when the Scriptures are? It is great pity that men are, yea wilbe ſo deceaved with vaine ſhews. Let vsus in Gods name content our ſelves (in handling matters of Religion) onelyonly with Gods al ſufficient worde: vnles where the importunity of an Adverſary forceth vsus. Otherwiſe let vsus ſpare the Authority of men in Gods matters, to them that make an Idoll of it. Finally if in this caſe we were to looke after any man, ſurely we have more cauſe to regard our later faithfull Teachers, rather then thoſe of old. Who being equall with the beſt of them in any of the excellent graces of Gods ſpirit which hee vſeth to beſtow on his ſervants for the edifying of the Church, yet heerein theſe have advantage of the former, that they were directly provoked & occaſioned to ſtudy and ſift out this queſtion againſt the Papiſts, which the Ancients were not occaſioned to do.

After,…ag 341. a you ſet your ſelf to prove that in Hell there is materiall fire. But it ſeemeth you are now almoſt afraid ſo to call it: yet b you call it true fire. …ag. 343.Which alſo we vtterly deny. All your proofes (ſuch as they are) runne to prove corporall and materiall fire: yet eternall. Except your Scriptures, which vtterly prove nothing at all: for they ſhew no more any corporall, or materiall, or true fire to be now in Hell, then a corporall worme, materiall brimston, and much wood, & true chaines. Which you ſay is a ſleeveles obiection, but neither your ſelfe, nor Austin whom you cite againſt it, doth any where anſwer it. Yea Austin thinketh that incorporall ſpirits ſhalbe faſtened to corporall fire. But he ſaith not that now they are: which only is our queſtion or, els nothing. For my parte I ſee no reaſon to believe that now there is corporall fire in Hell, whatſoever there ſhalbe heereafter when Bodies alſo ſhalbe there vnited and tormented with the Soules. Againe Austin heere doth not prove that there ſhalbe ſuch fire: hee only ſheweth the maner how it may be ſo heereafter, if God will. Now if all your reaſon be the power of God only, then aſwel you may prove that the sky is fallen. For as touching Gods will heerein, you name it indeed, but you ſhew it no where, nor ſeeme to ſhew it. All the reſt ſay nothing further, nor indeed ſo far as Austin. Yet you thinke it may be calledaPag. … a true created fire. That no Chriſtian ever doubted of, if you meane that it is a true creature. If you meane ſimply, that it is true fire, that ſtill we deny. And me thinks you ſhould not care for corporall fire now in Hell, ſeeing you ſeeme to belieue no torments for Damned ſoules ſave only at the Reſurrection. For thus you reaſon,bPag. 25 As the Body hath ben the instrument of the Soules pleaſure (in ſinne) ſo it ſhalbe of hir paine. cPag. 20…But all provocations and pleaſures of ſinne the ſoule taketh from her body, all acts of ſinne ſhe committeth by her body. Therefore the iustice of God both temporally and eternally puniſheth the Soule (only) by the Body. Or Therefore all the Soules paine for ſinne both temporally & eternally is by the Body. This is your owne reaſon: which being true, why ſhould you care for corporall fire in Hell, before the laſt iudgment?

Your ſtriving toaPag. 34… confute my allegations of Fathers, I hope I have refuted ſufficiently before. And thenbPag. 35 Sir Refuter endeth as be began with egregious lyes. What lyes began he with, and with what doth he end? In the begining our lyes have proved tales of truth, and in the end your wordes will prove iniurious at leaſt. I ſaid, that not ſom, or the most, or best, but even all & every one both Churches & Writers in the world who are Proteſtants, teach as we do: except only your ſelfe, or happily ſom after you, ſince the year 1597. What ly is there in al this? Why name you not in al y^e world one man (of thoſe whom we call Proteſtants) of your minde? that it may appeare who deſerveth ſuch rebukes. Nay in this, being the very point of the matter you are ſilent: in revilings, outcryes, and accuſations you exceed.

Where I avouch thatcTreat. …. pag 8…. only the hoateſt and cunningeſt Papiſts, Ieſuits, Prieſts, & Fryars have alwayes vntill this day had this controverſie with all Proteſtants, and all Proteſtants againſt them: & namely Bellarmin, Campian, Engliſh Rhemists, &c. To al this ſcanalous & ſuſpicious argument you reply not a ſyllable. What ſhall we thinke of ſuch doctrine, which in this learned age hath none but ſuch defenders. And yet among the Papiſts I noted 2, Cuſanus and Ferus as liking of the Proteſtants doctrine heerein, which alſo they do in ſome other matters. Now theſe 2. and only theſe (though more there are) c you cite at large:…. 140.141 whoſe wordes indeede (eſpecially the Fryars) ſeeme exceſſive. But our owne moſt worthy and learned Teachers d M. Fulke, …rea. 1. p. 88M. Deering, M. Whitakers which againſt you I alleaged, you vouchſafe not a looke towards them. Nor to M. Nowels Catechiſme, nor to the Synod authoriſing it,…efore pag. 42. nor to the Archb: great * approbation thereof: Not to our Common Bibles note authoriſed publikly to be read thorough out England. Only againſt my alleaging of our Homilyes e you take exception:Pag 355. but I truſt I have before fully and cleerely defended them to bee for vsus, and againſt you. Neither doeth any ſuch matter appeare in them as f you avouch.Pag. 136. Thus then I end our 1. Queſtion: being ſorry that I have ben ſo long. But I truſt the friendly Reader will pardon me, conſidering how I have ben occaſioned therevnto.

Defense of a Treatise Touching the Suffering and Victory of Christ, Part 1 (4 of 4)