A Christian and Modest Offer, Part 4

A Christian and Modest Offer · Part 4

p. 234. AN ANSWER TO SVCH OPPOSITIONS, AS MAY BE MADE BY THE Prelats, againſt yeelding to the aforeſaid Offer.

1. OPPOSITION.

The reverend Fathers of the Church, before they proceeded to ſuſpenſion and deprivation of the Miniſters, uſed godly admonitions, exhortations, & arguments to perſwade them to conformitie, anſwering whatſoever they could then obiect, why they ſhould not conforme. Therefore what neede they now to enter into that trouble againe?

ANSWER.

This is not true.

I. They neuer vſed any one Argumēt 1to the purpoſe, but ſuch as hath been ſufficiently anſwered we know not how often.

2. Their p. 242Admonitions were meere formall; wherin alſo the Miniſters were exceedingly wronged: divers of them (who were very poore men, and ſome of their livings not aboue 40. ſom 30. ſome 20. pounds by the yeare, & their charge of wife, children, and family very great) being forced to come in the depth of winter 9. or 10. times, yea ſome oftener, unto their Pallaces, ſome of them 30. ſome 40. ſome 50. miles and more to receaue their Admonitions, and at length their deprivations for their labor.

3. We deſire 3that the Prelats would publiſh to the view of all the world thoſe Arguments which they uſed, and the Miniſters did not, or could not anſwer.

4. This is a moſt certaine truth, & wilbe juſtified to the faces of them all, that many of the Miniſters demanded of them Reaſons and Arguments, according to the forme of the Kings Proclamation, and they refuſed to giuegive any: yea divers of them ſundry times offered their Propoſitions, and Reaſons to the Prelats, promiſing, upō their reaſonable anſwer, with out any further queſtion to Conforme; and to this day they never gaue them any.

5. This may the more incite 5them to accept of this Offer: for by this meanes they may make knowne to the world thoſe great Arguments and Reſolutions, which then they uſed, and may ſet them downe with mature and adviſed deliberation, to the honor of their proceedings.

6. The only Argument to purpoſe 6that they uſed, was this, that it was his Majeſties pleaſure it ſhould be ſo: thereby laying the imputation and envie of their unjuſt proceedings upon him.

2. OPPOSITION.

The Miniſters can ſay noe more then they hauehave ſaid & written p. 25already, and which we hauehave anſwered often. And why then ſhould we try theſe things any further?

ANSWER.

1. This is more then the Prelats know. Some of the Miniſters 1hauehave lately ſaid more to ſome poynts, then hath been ſaid before. And upon ſuch occaſions as may be offered by ſuch a Conference, they may ſay more thē they hauehave ſaid yet.

2. The prelats, by their corrupt anſwers in 2their late publiſhed writings, hauehave given them occaſion to ſay more, then yet hath been ſaid.

3. This they are 3able to make good, that that which they hauehave ſaid alreadie, hath not been anſwered as yet; and therfore this Cō ference is deſired that theſe matters may be further tried.

3. OPPOSITION.

It is dangerous that matters eſtabliſhed by Law ſhould be thus called into queſtion, and diſputed of as matters doubtfull.

ANSWER.

1. Theſe matters are not now newly called into question, 1but they hauehave been from time to time oppoſed againſt, and ſo will be to the end of the world; at leaſt wiſe ſo long as ſo many Churches of God in other Kingdoms profeſſe and practiſe as they doe; and the rather becauſe many great and famous Lights of the Church, both beyond Seas and at home, in their Monuments that ſhall laſt to all poſteritie, hauehave teſtifyed againſt them. This therefore is not to call a matter, which is out of queſtion, p. 26into queſtion, but to call a matter already in queſtion, to a direct and finall determination.

2. It cannot but be rather 2very profitable vntounto any State (ſuch rules and conditions, as are here propounded, being obſerved) to debate and diſpute, in ſuch a maner as this is, of any humane law whatſoever. For by this meanes, if a law be iuſt, it wilbe an honor vntounto it to hauehave the iuſtice therof manifeſted; if vniuſt, it may be abrogated. And how cōmeth it to paſſe, that ſo many lawes of man are abrogated by man, if whē once a Law is enacted, it may not be called into queſtiō? Iuſt Lawes grounded vppon equitie, reaſon, & the word of God never dread examination, but vniuſt and Antichriſtian Lawes do.

3. Theſe matters were never yet ſo 3eſtabliſhed by law, as is pretended, but only tolerated: it being the intent of the firſt retainers of theſe Reliques of popery, in time to aboliſh them. And ſince the 14. yere of hir late Maieſties Raigne, the High Court of Parliament and the ſtate of this Kingdome (who only, with the aſſent of the King, hauehave power to make and abrogate Lawes, whether Civill or Eccleſiaſticall) hauehave euer ſhewed themſelues readie to eaſe the Churches of theſe burdens, which vnderunder the name of things eſtabliſhed by Law are impoſe vponupon them by the Prelats. Only the Prelars, hauing many voyces of their owne in the vpper Howſe, hauehave, by their groſſe flatteryes & fayned promiſes to the in Chiefe place, ever croſſed the holy endeavors of the Parliament for the removall of theſe burdens, grievous both to Church and Commonweale.

4. It is ordinary 4in our Univerſities to admit of argumentatiō againſt any poynt of Religion and Faith; and that in ſuch a maner, as is more dangerous to the truth, and leſſe indifferent, then this forme that is heere offered.

p. 274. OPPOSITION.

If Schiſmaticks and factious perſons may hauehave this favour, why then may not Browniſts, Anabaptiſts, and Papiſts exſpect the ſame?

ANSWER

1. They Miniſters deny themſelues to be Schiſmatiks, & 1ſhall at any time iuſtifie themſelues to be as honeſt men, and as dutifull & loyall ſubjects as any Prelat in the Kingdom.

2. The thing they deſire is no favor, but that which in juſtice is to be yeelded vntounto thē: Neither ſhall they get 2any good, but hurt by it, except the truth be on their ſide.

3. It were a ſhame for a ſtate profeſſing the true Religion publikly, to deny to the free ſubiects thereof, deſiring it, ſuch an indifferent hearing of their opinions, as this is, be 3they of the Separation, or Anabaptiſts, or what they may be. For if the Heathen had not, much leſſe ſhould true Chriſtans hauehave any ſuch law, to condemne any ſect or faction whatſoever, before they heare them: and heare them they doe not, that will refuſe to admit of ſuch an indifferent Offer as this is. And it is a ſhame of ſhames to the Doctors of Oxford, who provoking thoſe whom they call Browniſts, in their Anſwer to the Miniſters Petition, and being challenged of dishoneſtie and iniuſtice in an Anſwer therevnto, have not in all this time iuſtified themſelues, & anſwered that which the other ſay in their owne defence; it being ſo grauely, moderatly, and discreetly ſet downe. How much greater ſhame & reproch would it be, to refuſe ſuch a direct kinde of triall as this is, tyed to ſo ſtrict rules, ſo preiudiciall to error, & of ſo great p. 28advantage to the truth.

5. OPPOSITION.

This Offer argues only a willfull obſtinacie of perſons that will never be ſatisfied, and content with reaſon. For was not (according to their owne ſeeking) their cauſe handled & heard in the Conference at Hampton Court, his Maieſtie him ſelfe moderating the action, and anſwering whatſoever, in theſe points their owne Agents could obiect? what would they more?

ANSWER.

11. In their objecting to the Miniſters the Conference at Hampton Court, they object to them, as it were, that which is Non Ens: None of them knowing what it was, nor any other faue a few that were preſent, whoſe reports thereof are alſo ſo diuerſe, that one ſpoyles the credit of another. And that which is ſet forth as the true report of it, being publiſhed onelyonly by the Prelates (who are partiall) without the knowledge, aduiſe, or conſent of the other ſide, deſerues no credit; the rather conſidering that D. Morton hath bene allowed to call ſome part of it into queſtion, even ſome ſpeeches fathered vponupon his Maieſtie, which he was faine to confute as vnſound and contrary to divinitie. Wherin ſith the Kings owne ſpeeches be, as it ſeemeth, groſſely abuſed by the author, it is much more likly that ſpeeches of other men are abuſed. Beſides, none but Prelats, and ſuch as were partiall, being preſent at the firſt dayes Conference, there can be no credit at all given to the report thereof: for it is more then apparant, that they hauehave fraudulently cut of, and concealed all the p. 29ſpeeches (which were many) that his Maieſtie vttered againſt the corruptiōs of our Church, & practiſe of the Prelats: as appeareth by that teſtimony of the Deane of the Chappell, which he gaue therof, ſaying, That his Maieſtie did that day wonderfully play the Puritan. But if he playd that part no otherwiſe then is ſpecified in the Prelats report, he acted it very poorely, or rather never a whitt. If therefore they would hauehave had the Miniſters to ſtand to the determination of that Conference, they ſhould hauehave vſed more indifferencie and honeſtie in the Relation of it, then they hauehave don; they ſhould at leaſt hauehave made it appeare by mutuall teſtimonie of all ſides, that it was a true act. For they hauehave no reaſō to belieue ſuch enemies, as the Prelats hauehave ſhewed themſelues to be vntounto them, any further then they ſee them.

2. Such a conference as 2that, was never deſired by the Miniſters; And it ſeemes by the whole managing of it, that it was vnderhand plotted and procured by the Prelats themſelues; abuſing therin his Maieſtie, and vſing M. Galloway as an inſtrument in the matter, to the end that they might hauehave the more colour for their intended proceedings afterwards. And there is great probabilitie of this, for that the Archbiſhop profeſſed to the Committies of both Howſes, the laſt ſesſion, that he had the letters written from M. Cartwright to M. Galloway about that matter.

3. Moſt of the perſons, appoynted to ſpeake for the Miniſters, were not 3of their choſing, nor nomination, nor of their iudgment in the matters then and now in queſtion, but of a cleane contrary. For being intreated at that time by the Miniſters to diſpute againſt theſe things, as things ſimply evill and ſuch as cannot be yeelded vntounto without ſinne; they profeſſed to them, that they were not ſo perſwaded, and p. 30therefore could not ſo doe. Being then requeſted, to let his Majeſty underſtand that ſome of their brethren were further perſwaded touching the unlawfulnes of theſe things, then themſelues were; they refuſed that alſo. Laſtly being intreated either to giuegive them in writing their reaſons to proue theſe thinges indifferent, or to giuegive them an anſwere in writing to ſuch reaſons as they would giuegive them in writing, to proue them ſimply euill; they would doe neither the one nor the other; ſo that there neither was, nor could be any hope of good by that conference.

44. The matters in controverſy were not in that Conference throughly debated, but nakedly propoūded, & ſom not at all touched: neither was there any one Argument 5to the purpoſe followed in the ſame.

5. The Prelats took vntounto them ſelues liberty to interrupt, at their pleaſure, thoſe of the other ſide; inſomuch that they were checked 9for it by his Maieſtie.

6. The Miniſters (if his Maieſtie will giuegive them leaue) will at any time, in one weeks ſpace, deliuer to his Maieſtie in writing a full anſwere to any Argument, or Aſſertion, propounded in that Conference againſt them by any Prelate: and they do here plainely profeſſe that all and every one of them are moſt vaine and frivolous.

6. OPPOSITION.

Theſe Miniſters, by oppugning the Prelats, doe openly disgrace the Government of his Maieſtie, and the whole State: and therefore noe ſuch favor is to be yeelded to them.

ANSWER.

11. If the aforeſaid Propoſitions be all of them true, & p. 31ſuch as will be iuſtifyed by the written word of God, thē the Miniſters (who heerein ſeeke nothing but the bare defence of that truth contayned in them, which is of ſo great importance) cannot be truly charged with any vndutifull behavior toward King or State: if they be not true, this tryall will make it manifeſt to all men, and that to the greater ſhame of theſe Miniſters.

2. They doubt 2not (whatſoever the Prelats ſhall intimate to the contrary) but that this Conference will much redound to the Honor of his Maieſties perſon, and Governmēt. For by it that truth ſhall appeare, which (how ſoever it hath been generally receaved in other Churches abroad) hath been hitherto either vnknowen among vsus, or much obſcured by the Prelats & their friends; albeit it doth indeed concerne, and that deeply, the true ordinary meanes of ſaving our ſoules.

3. The Miniſters are heerein ſo far from ſeeking 3to diſgrace the King or his Gouernment, that they would eſteeme it a ſingular blesſing of God, if they might be ſo happy, as to obtaine that the aforeſaid Propoſitions (containing in them the nature of Chriſts true Viſible Church, Miniſterie, and Worſhip) may, by his Maieſties ſpeciall order and appointment, be examined and determined, in ſuch a moſt reaſonable and vnpartiall Conference, as before is tendered: wherevnto they make no queſtion but they ſhall finde his Maieſtie willing inough, if the Prelats do not vnderunder hand procure him to hinder it.

7. OPPOSITION.

It is not meet that the Governors of the Church ſhould in this maner debaſe themſelues vntounto ſuch meane and privat perſōs.

p. 32ANSWER.

11. They are no privat perſons, being publike Ministers of the Goſpell; and diuers of them of as good eſtimation in the Schooles for their knowledge in Divinitie and Humanitie, and as reverend for their yeares, as any of the 2Prelats are.

2. Some of the principall of the Prelats hauehave already more diſgraced themſelues in this kinde, thē they ſhould by yeelding to ſuch a Conference as this is. The Biſhop of Wincheſter (as is well knowen) vndertooke the Anſwer of M. Iacobs laſt booke. The Biſhop of London profeſſed openly in his Cōſiſtory, that he would ſhake out of the raggs that booke, which the Miniſters of Lincolne Dioces delivered to his Maieſtie, the Abridgment whereof is publiſhed in print. Doctor Felton alſo at the requeſt of the Archbiſhop vndertooke to anſwer the Treatiſe of Divine worſhip: which bookes maintaine and defend in ſubſtance the aforeſaid propoſitions. And though two years are now allmoſt paſt, yet noe Anſwer to any of them appeareth.

3. The Prelats may choſe whether themſelues 3will perſonally deale in the Conference or not; they may asſigne heerevnto their ordinarie Champions, who hauehave for their preferment alreadie put forth themſelues in the cauſe: And who (for greater hopes) wilbe ready to vndergoe this ſervice.

8. OPPOSITION.

This very Offer is enough to iuſtifie the former proceeding; of the Reverend Fathers againſt the Miniſters, and to manifeſt how intolerable they are in this ſtate. They pretended, in their p. 33firſt Petition to his Maieſty no deſire of innovation of the Government, but only the remouall of a few Ceremonies, and ſome other ſuppoſed corruptions. Now they hauehave manifeſted their hypocriſie to all the world; which the Biſhops foreſeeing thought it needfull to take this courſe againſt them. For nothing will ſatisfy theſe fellowes, but either the overthrowe of Biſhops, or at leaſt wiſe their freedome from them. And therefore can any blame the Biſhops, if they giuegive them the ſame meaſure, that they, if they had the power in their hands, would mete vntounto them?

ANSWER.

1. If the Miniſters doe now cut deeper at the roote of 1the Prelacie, thē heretofore they hauehave done, it is becauſe, ſince their late proceedings, they hauehave ſeene more into the myſterie of injquitie, that worketh in their ſpirituall Dominion, then ever they ſaw before: And therfore they muſt thanke themſelues for it.

2. It is now made manifeſt 2to the whole world, that there is no hope of freedom from the ſpirituall bondage of Antichriſtian Traditions, ſo long as the Prelats ſit in their Thrones, but a more direfull expectation of greater ſlaverie and ſervitude, then ever before, as may appeare by the late Canons and their other proceedings. And therefore howſoever ſome reverend Miniſters nouriſh ſtill many hopes, that the Prelats will at length ſhew mercy, and be content to let them in joy the libertie of their conſciences, and ſuffer them to exerciſe a Miniſterie under them; yet they that make this Offer ſeeing no likelyhood nor poſſibilitie of any ſuch matter, but of the cleane contrarie (the Prelats having in ſo high a degree blaſphemed and perſecuted this truth of God) they thinke themſelues now bound in conſcience p. 34by all honeſt & good meanes to ſeeke to be freed frō that eſtate, which cannot (as it appeares now to all the world) uphold it ſelfe,G. Powel Adiaph. …ef. but by the ruine of the Goſpell, and exaltation of Antichriſtianiſme. For they that plead for their Government and Traditions are driven to hold theſe impious and irreligious Abſurdities;D. Covil, …ainſt the …ea of the …n: pa. 19. *That Chriſt is not the Lawgiver of his Church:! That it is a vertuous obedience, to reſt as well in that which the Church commandeth unto us, as in that which God commandeth to his Church: Hutton, … the Croſſ, …g 3.4"That the Church is ruled by the ſpirit of Chriſt, who is the truth; and therefore her Traditions are true and holy: Hooker, …ef. pag 28.… That God alloweth men to doe that which in their private iudgment it ſeemeth; yea and perhaps truely ſeemeth,B. Roch. …ermon at …ampton …ourt, p. 31. that the Law doth diſallow. § That vnwrit ten Ordinances, aſwell as written, are Divine and Apoſtolike in the conſtitution of the chiefeſt Office, and Miniſterie of the Church.

3. They doe no further deſire 3their freedom from the Prelats, & from that power which they hauehave, then they ſhall be able to proue, that it is lifted up againſt the Doctrine and Kingdome of Chriſt our Lord.

4. They leaue their overthowe to God and the 4King; and doe only by theſe premiſſes labor, that that truth, which hath been amongſt vsus long ſuppreſſed and afflicted, may come to light, and may be ſo honored and freed at laſt, as God requireth that it ſhould be.

5. If the 5Callings of the Prelats be warrantable, and of Divine ordinance (as Biſhop Barlow avoucheth in his late Sermon) then the yeelding vntounto this Offer wilbe a notable meanes to eſtabliſh the ſame, and can no wayes be derogatory vntounto it: for no Divine ordinance will fly or feare any ſuch Tryall. But if it be vnlawfull (as it will be ſuppoſed of all men to be, even in the cōſciences of the Prelats, if they ſhall refuſe this Offer) thē indeed this Tryall can p. 35be no meanes to iuſtify the Prelats, who ought in ſuch a caſe either to giuegive ouer their places, or at leaſt to ſuffer thoſe, that hauehave their conſciences perſwaded of the vnlawfulnes of their Callinges, to be free, even as Chriſt hath made them free both from them and their Government.

9. OPPOSITION.

This Offer proceeds from them who wilbe ſatisfyed with nothing. If they ſhould hauehave the Diſcipline granted them, and all that they deſire, they would not ſtay there; that would not contēt them. At the firſt they ſtood vponupon a few Ceremonies only; after this they cryed downe with Biſhops; and when they hauehave their de ſire in this, then let the King looke to himſelfe.

ANSWER.

1. This is but a malicious ſurmiſe of that whereof there 1is noe ground; the Propoſitions before ſet downe makeing it more then manifeſt, that as the Miniſters hauehave not any the leaſt intention to impeach the Royall dignity, ſo likewiſe they doe much more advance the ſame indeed, thē the Prelats do.

2. The practiſe of all other Reformed 2Churches, inioying the Diſcipline which is deſired, confuteth this ſlanderous obiection; in as much as they reſt content under the ſame without ſeeking, or indeauoring, any vaine or rebellious innovation.

3. Though ſome Miniſters 3hauehave ſtoode upon the Ceremonies onelyonly, yet many of them hauehave from time to time witneſſed vehemently and in ſpeciall maner againſt the Prelacie, according as God hath opened their underſtanding in this point, p. 36though ſom of them at the firſt did not ſufficiently conſider how unlawfull and unwarrantable it is: and this is no more preiudiciall either to them or to the cauſe, then it was to the Apoſtle Paul for teaching that doctrine afterward, which at firſt he underſtood not: or to thoſe now profeſſing the Goſpell, who in times paſt hauehave bene ignorant 4Papiſtes, & enemies to the trueth.

4. The Miniſters deſire not that either the Diſcipline, or any thing els ſhould be yeelded unto them, or that they ſhould hauehave their willes ſatiſfied in any thing, further then they are able to proue the thing (for want whereof they are unſatiſfied) to be due unto them by the word of God. And ſo far forth they thinke it lawfull for them, or any els, to ſhew themſelues unſatiſfied: it being a grieuous Sinne for any, in matters of Religion and meanes of Saluation, to content themſelues with leſſe, then God will hauehave them to be content withall. The Ordinances of God will content them ſufficiently; and nothing will diſcontent them but to be depriued of any of the ſame, they all being ordinary meanes of Saluation. And is it not an Antichriſtian ſpirit, that would binde men to any other Content? If in their diſcontent they deſire any thing that God doth not require them to deſire, there may be as many meanes 5found then, as now, to bridle their deſires.

5. Their adviſing the King to looke to himſelfe, when Ceremonies & Dioceſan Biſhops are downe, is a Scarcrow, fitter to fright Dawes away, then to hinder ſo wiſe a Majeſty from yeelding his furtherance to ſo Chriſtian an Offer. The Miniſters therefore doe heere againe profeſſe to all the world, that they no further deſire the overthrowe of the Prelats, then they ſhall proue that their ſtanding is derogatory both to Chriſt & to the King; and that they take p. 37nothing from the Prelats, but what they giuegive to Chriſt, his Church, the King, & the Civill Magiſtrats vnderunder him: the Prelats unjuſtly keeping that from them, which by the word of God is their due, and which the ſaid Miniſters are readie to yeeld unto them, before they deſire to ſee the overthrow of the Prelats: who (we doubt not) will appeare to be enemyes (though in a myſterie) to God, to the King, and to his people, even in their very Callings and Offices.

10. OPPOSITION.

Shall we hearken to the Offer of ſuch as are not yet agreed amongſt themſelues what they would hauehave? There are not two of them of one minde: and therefore it is to no purpoſe to hearken unto them. Let them firſt agree amongſt themſelues, and tell us what they would hauehave, and then they ſhall be heard.

ANSWER.

1 They are all agreed alreadie vponupon theſe poynts: that 1the Ceremonies are ſcandalous, and ought, by thoſe that are in authoritie, to be removed; that the Eccleſiaſticall Government of other reformed Churches is more agreeable to the word of God, then the Government by Dioceſan Prelates; that Pluraliſts, Nonreſidents, and dumbe Miniſters ought not to be tolerated in any Chriſtian Church; that it is fitter we ſhould conforme our ſelues to other Reformed Churches in our Liturgie, Ceremonies, & Diſcipline, then to the accurſed Synagogue of Rome. Their differences are onelyonly about the maner of maintayning theſe pointes. Let them hearken to the Miniſters p. 38in the things wherin they all are alreadie agreed, and they will not trouble them with any diſagreements: Yea, they ſhall finde, that in their differences they will agree better 2then they would hauehave them.

2. If they diſagree ſo among themſelues, as the Prelats would beare men in hād, they hauehave the leſſe cauſe to feare them, & may with more hope of prevailing enter into this Tryall with them. But the truth is, that their differences are neither halfe ſo many, nor halfe ſo great, as thoſe that be among the Prelats.

11. OPPOSITION.

Either their Propoſitions are falſe, and ſufficiently confuted by their owne practiſe; or if they be true, then why doe they ioynt to our Church, which is gouerned by the Prelates? why doe they deſire to execute a publike Miniſtery under them? why doe they not wholly with the Browniſts ſeparate, and get them to Amſterdam to their holy brethren there.

ANSWER.

11. The practiſe of the Miniſters herein is no way contrary to their Propoſitiōs: & this is a moſt deſperate ſhift in the 2Prelats, to preſſ thē herewith.

2. They proteſt (to the ſhāe of the Prelats, & to the testifying of their charitable louelove to thoſe of the Miniſterie, which are otherwiſe minded thē themſelues) that they are perſwaded, that many of the Conforming Miniſters are (notwithſtanding the great defects, and corruptions in their calling and ſtanding) true Miniſters of Ieſus Chriſt, and indued with gifts from heaven for that holy functiō; And that the Churches which they teach (howſoever in their Conſtitution very defectiue p. 39and unperfect) are true Churches; whoſe willing ſubjecting themſelues unto their Miniſterie maketh the very outward calling it ſelfe of the ſaid Miniſters to be ſuch as it is. And therefore ſo long as (their conſciences being in the meane time vnconvinced of theſe their errors wherein they ſtād) God taketh not away their Miniſteriall gifts frō them, and ſo long as their Churches cleaue unto them (though in their entrance & continuance they were, and are guiltie of much ſinne, in approving by Conformitie and Subſcription the Iurisdiction of Prelats) they thinke it not juſt wholly to ſeparate from them and their Miniſterie, but are content, though with ſome griefe and ſorrow, ſo far forth to joyne with them in the worſhip of God, as they can without their perſonall Communion with them in thoſe corruptions, which in their weaknes they yeeld vntounto.

3. If the Prelats ſhall ſtill hold the things 3in queſtion in ſuch ſort as of late they hauehave done, & ſhall vrge them ſo hotely as they begin; both the Miniſters & many of the people wilbe forced to leaue their ordinary ſtanding in theſe Churches. In which regard they humbly pray that they may be exempted from the Prelats, & may hauehave liberty granted vntounto them by the King, to ſerue God according to his owne will revealed in his word, without any Humane Traditions. As for that publique Miniſterie derived from the Prelats, beſides that it cannot be entered into without yeelding to corruption & ſinne, it is alſo very defectiue, &, to ſpeake the truth, little more then a halfe Miniſterie, if it be compared with the Paſtorall Office commanded and commended vntounto vsus by the Holy Ghoſt. Which the Miniſters diſcerning, and perceaving plainly that there is litle or no cōfort to be had in the exerciſing of ſuch a Miniſterie, as hitherto they hauehave injoyed p. 40they are bold to make their humble Suite to his Maieſtie, that they may be freed from the Prelats vſurpation over them, and may be vnderunder the guidance & Cenſure of the Civill Magiſtrats; unles by ſuch an indifferent Tryall as is heere Offered, the Prelats ſhall iuſtify their Callings and Courſes to be of God.

12. OPPOSITION.

A vaine thing it is to yeeld to any ſuch Offer. For who muſt iudge on which ſide the truth is. They name none; And when they hauehave been heard to oppoſe and Anſwer what they can, they will not ſtand to any mans definitiue ſentence, but will continue obſtinate ſtill.

ANSWER.

11. In deſiring that the whole cariage of this intended Conference may be publiſhed, they make all the world to be Iudges thereof; even the Prelats and the Papiſts them ſelues, & all that ſhall read the ſame.

2. They do not think 2it lawfull in any matter of Religion, much leſſe in matters of ſo great conſequence, to ſettle their conſciences vponupon the definitiue ſentence of any perſon abſolutely: that is, ſo far as to renounce any thing which they hauehave believed, becauſe ſuch or ſuch iudge it to be otherwiſe. For ſo they might both headily & wilfully betray the truth of Chriſt, and inthrall themſelues to error, and alſo detract from Chriſt and his bleſſed word their proper right, and giuegive it unto men. It ſhould therefore content any Chriſtianly affected man, that the Miniſters are content to offer their Defence of theſe poynts to the view of all, to skan and to p. 41weigh thē, and ſo far forth to judge therof, as (if their reaſons do not ſatisfie them) to giuegive them leaue to condēne them of error: which wilbe a Iudgment heavie enough to them, if notwithſtanding they ſhall ſtill perſiſt in their former opinions.

3. It may pleaſe God, that by the evidence and force of thoſe Arguments or Anſwers that ſhal 3be propounded, both ſides may thinke themſelues ſatiſfied, and one ſide yeeld. If the Prelates hauehave this grace to yeeld, then his Majeſty & the State know beſt what they hauehave to doe in ſuch a Caſe. If the Miniſters yeeld, then the greateſt matter that can be expected of them, is Submiſſion and Conformity: which if they ſhall refuſe, the Law is open; ſo that in this caſe there needes no Definitiue ſentence of a Iudge. It both ſides reſt vnſatisfied, and continew perſwaded ſtill, that the truth is on their ſide, it were impious for either ſide in ſuch a caſe to commit the abſolute determination therof vntounto the will and pleaſure of any man or men whomſoeuer. And it were vniuſt for either ſide, to require Iudges either incompetent, or not indifferent. For as the Prelats might iuſtly (except they would wilfully betray their owne cauſe) refuſe ſuch to be Iudges, as hauehave in any degree inclined more to the Ministers then to them; ſo may the Miniſters in like maner as iuſtly refuſe to ſtand to the Iudgment and determination of ſuch, as incline more to the Prelats then to them; much more of ſuch, as hauehave ſhewed themſelues maine patrons and vpholders of the Prelats, and adverſaries to the Miniſters. Sith therfore the Prelats can not ſet forth any perſon, or perſons, to whom it is meet to commit the abſolute determination of ſo great a cauſe, it were very vniuſt, and vnequall, to binde the Miniſters to ſtand to the judgment of thoſe that are partiall.

4. It is needles to name p. 424Iudges: his Maieſtie, the Civill Magiſtrats vnderunder him, and the High Court of Parliament (though the Miniſters ſhould appeale from them) would in this caſe judge thē, and their Cauſe, yea and are bound ſoe to doe. Whoſe Iudgment if it goe againſt the Miniſters, and it appeare to be righteous; the more they ſhall neglect the ſame, and refuſe to ſubmit themſelues vntounto it, the more groſſe & refractary they ſhall ſhew themſelues to be: and with the more honor and credit may the State ioyne with the Prelats, in making and executing Lawes for the ſuppresſing of them, and their Errors; which is as much advantage as any Chriſtian can deſyre over any Enemies of the truth. And what would the Prelats hauehave more?

Prov. 19.21.

Many deviſes are in a mans heart; but the Counſell of the Lord shall ſtand.

Math: 22:21.

GiueGive unto Caeſar the thinges which are Caeſars; and giuegive unto God thoſe things which are Gods.

End of the text · Henry Jacob, A Christian and Modest Offer (1606)