More Work for Priests, Answer 8 – Answer 11
IOHN GREENWODS Answer.
I Trust your madnes will appeare to all men, the poyson of Aspes is vnderunder your tongue: he that cannot rule his tongue his Religion is in vayne. Shall J in your heate be pressed with multitude of, Churches? then heare what the Lorde faith, Thou shal: not followe a multitude to do evill, we have the word amongst vsus, we shall by that worde be either iustified or condemned. Then either prove your matter from the scriptures or els give eare to the Scripture. If those Churches you speake of, bring mens writinges into the publique assemblies, & inforce them to be read for praying, I would see their warrant, we beleeve not because men say so, or doe so, but because God speaketh: And where he speaketh, all men must be silent. You may accuse other countries as you wil, knowe not their estate, but your drudgery insteade of true worship, is lothsome, the priest with his massebooke, & the begger with his clapdish canuize over the Pater noster for their bellie, which is your common worship, with other trinckets. We shal speake of a Liturgie in due place, Here you breath out your accustomed lyes, slanders, & railings. First you terme us Brownists & Donatists, wheras I never conversed with the men nor their writings: I dereft Donatus his heresies. And if they had beene instruments to teach us anie truth we were not therfore to be named with their name, we were baptised into Christs. Browne is a member of your Church, your brother, and all Brownists do frequent your assemblies.
And here you wish the reader to consider, that I condemne all reformed Churches. do I condemne all Churches for reproving a sinne by Gods worde & May not the true Churches (if they were such) err? Did I affirme at anie time that they were no true Church that used read prayers, remember your self, you knowe who is the Father of such untruthes. But because your Conscience bare witnesse you had wrongfully chardged me, and in frome, all true Christians: you bring it in by necessary consequence thus. you assi'me (say you) prescript formes of praier brought into the publique assemblies to be the changing the work of the Spirit into an idoll, a tradition breaking Christian libertie, a deade letter quenching the Spirit &c. and therefore most detestable. But all reformed Churches receive and use it &c. therefore: You can reason well to bring the truth into contempt, your moth is open and tongue whet as a sworde thereunto. If the proposition be true, drawe what consequence you will, it is yours & not mine, if the doctrine be true, it is Gods worde that giveth sentence against the sinne. And if you have anie sparke of grace, procure that we may decide the truth with other Churches. Doth it follow that because imposing of mens writinges to be read for praying is an heynous sinne, therefore they that use it are no Church, If I should say so, I should justlie be called an Anabaptist.
And here you accuse me to pleade for such a freedome in the Church, that nothing receaued which is imposed by commaundement. Abaddon is the Father of such Prophets. Doth it follow that because we would have the Church free from all traditions of men which have no warrant in Gods worde, that therefore we would not receave Gods ordinances by Commaundement. That we ought to receave nothing by Commaundement in the worship of God, which God hath not commaunded, the second commaundement with the scriptures I have rehearsed, are evident, Deut. 5.32.33. Mat. 2▪5.2.3. Gal. 4.9. Collof. 2, 20 But seing your self graueled, (considering all the world cannot lay a Commandement to bring their owne inventions into the assemblies, wher God hath laide none, but forbidden it:) you ranne to your former places of scripture to wrast them as before, where your collections are but vaine repetions of that which hath been convinced before. Moses, the Prophets etc. prescribed formes of praiers, therefore men now may thrust their writings into the publique assemblies: Your Argument is denied: and yet here is no warrant for the reading them over for praier.
G. GIFFORD.
The Church had power to expounde those prayers mentioned in the Scriptures, & to apply them to their severall necessities &c.
J. GREENWOOD.
If you meane by expounding, the breaking of them up by doctrine vp, and by doctrine and praier to applye them to the severall vses of the Church by lively voyce, far be it from me to thinke otherwise. But if you meane by expounding. to make homilies vponupon them, or liturgies by writing to be thrust upon the publique assemblies, you are wide, and now iustifie homilies insteed of preaching, and written praiers instead of praying: shew your warrant. The CHVRCHES power is limited by the word.
G. GIFFORD.
When the prayers be framed and composed of nothing but the doctrine of the Scripture and after the rules of true prayer, nothing is brought in which God hath not commanded,
J. GREENWOOD.
THis might have come in before your raylings, but you sawe it was too silly: where is that commaundement of God, that all mens writinges in forme of prayer agreable to the Scriptures should be brought into the publique assemblies, your bare worde is not enough to put me to silence. And when you have gott them into the Church, you must prove that God hath commaunded they should be read for praier.
Where I said our Sauiour Christ never vsed the wordes when he praied. in that forme of praier he gave to his Disciples, nether commaunded his Disciples to say over these wordes, nether do we reade that ever his Apostles did use them, or enforced others to vse anie certaine number of wordes, you say I spake vntrulie. For say you the Disciples desired him to reach them to pray, as Iohn taught his Disciples, and he commanded them, when you pray, say Our Father; etc. Luke. 11. and S. Math. an Apostle hath deliuered the same to the whole Church, I answer I have never heard that Iohn Baptist taught his Disciples to say over certeyne wordes, nether can it be gathered by our Sauiour Christes answere, for he answeared not alwaies the verie demaunde according to their wordes, but thereupon tooke occasion to instruct them as the sawe neede. And I have proved by the 6. of Math. that our Saviour did not commaunde them to say over the very wordes when they prayd: for the word Houtos in Mathew signifieth after this maner: Againe that Math. recordeth not the very number, or the very same wordes that Luke doth. And now I reason thus: if Christ had commaunded those very wordes to be said over in praying, then we must alwaies when we pray, say over those wordes: for in Math. 6. he saith when you pray, pray thus. Our Father etc. The etc. The word when sheweth, that this commaundement is to be observed at all tymes: And then the Apostles sinned in praying other wordes Acts. 4.24.25. Furder it being the most summary forme of praier, most ample, most perfect etc. if those wordes were commaunded to be said over, then we ought not to vse any others, for he is accursed that bringeth not the best offrings he hath. Malach, 1.14. By all these it is euident that our Saviour nor his Evangelists tyed no man to the very wordes saying over, but according to that forme and those instructions: and now leave of your popish dreames. Yet you would make men belive, I reasoned thus, that the Apostles did not nether our Saviour himself, or anie that we reade of, vse these wordes in praier, therfore they did not use it. Nay I said, they did not vse these verie wordes in their praiers, but vsed other wordes according to their particular wants, as our Saviour in the 17. of Iohn is said to do: therfore he nether vsed nor commaunded others to say over those wordes. And so I may well cōclude, that to impose certaine wordes to be read or said by roate for praying, vponupon the Church, especiallie mens writings, is an intollorable pride, even a setting of men in the place of God: Also that to vse them or bowe downe vntounto them in that order, is sinne, and a breach of Gods lawe.
The fourth Argument.
Because true prayer must be of faith, vttered with heart and lively voice: it is presumptuous ignorance to bring a booke to speake for vsus vntounto God &c.
The fift Argument.
To worship the true God after an other maner then he hath taught, is Idolatrie. But he Commaundeth vsus to come vntounto him, heavie loaden with contrite hearts, to cry unto him for our wantes &c.
Therfore we may not vse reading of a dead letter, instead of powring fourth out petitions.
The Sixt Argument.
We must strive in praier with continuance &c. But we cannot strive in praier and be importunate with continuance, reading vponupon a booke. Therfore we must not reade when we should pray,
G. GIFFORD.
These 3. I ioyned togeather as having no weight, you say I answeare by plaine contradiction without Scripture &c. And after wardes is not my bare deniall as good as you bare affirmation: &c.