Answer to Giffords Defense of Read Prayers, Answer
IOHN GREENWOODS ANSWER. Wisdome is Iustified of her Children.
IT is agreed vponupon and consented vntounto on both sides, that seeing God is a spirit, and onelyonly requireth such to worship him, as worship him in spirit and truth: all carnall worship is cut downe hereby, of what sort soeuer, as disagreeing from the nature of God: And that all fantastical deuises of men; namely, whatsoeuer is not warranted in his worde, is carnall worship, a wearisomnes vntounto him, and lothsome in his sight: So that no man ought to intermedle, attempt, or practize anie thing in shew of worship whereof they hauehave not sure grounde of his worde: For euen our God is a consuming fire.
Now to put away all your (bodily) distinctions and earthly cauils, I still affirme (as I hauehave proued) the stinting, imposing mens writings vponupon publique assemblies, to hauehave them read ouer by number and stint, or any other way, as a worship of God in stead of true inuocation, is a meere deuise of man, and so carnall worship; as also all other reading of mens writinges publiquely or priuatly in this abuse, for praying to God. Yet say you to apply this Scripture Iohn. 4.22.23 in this manner against read prayer, is friuolous, where I appeale to all mens consciences, for the weight therof. It is friuolous, you say, except I can proue that a man cannot pray by the spirit of GOD with sighes and groanes vponupon a booke, or when prayer is vttered after a prescript forme &c. At the first step you go about to alter the question. All our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme, euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his Disciples and al poste…ities: But this is nothing to the matter.
For the other which is nothing but a begging of the question. I alleaged certayne reasons to this effecet. First that those sighes and groanes in reading instead of praying were not of fayth, seeing in praying the sighes and groanes that proceede of faith, minister matter to praye without a booke. Secondly that you did but barely affirme the question in calling it prayer by the spirit when one doth read, seing reading is not praying at al: for as I then alleadged, to inuocate the name of God in spirit, is by the worke of the spirit to bring fourth of our hearts praier to God, which is than in truth when yt agreeth to Gods word. But reading is another matter, namely a receauing of instruccion into the heart from the booke. Out of the first Mr. GIFFORD maketh men beleeue he hath fetched two heresies; the one a perfection of faith, the other that faith cannot be ioyned vntounto, or stand vvith anie outvvard helpes for the encrease therof. Litle marueile, he found so m…nie heresies in our whole writinges, that could finde two or three in my first reason: but that you may remember your self better (though you had two yeares to consider) I will bring the wordes before you againe, if peradventure you may have grace to call backe yourself. I said if the sighes and groanes (in that kinde of praying) were of faith, yt would, minister matter without a booke: this sentence I may confirme by manie testimonies of scripture, that no peruerted spirit can gainesay or resist: the scripture teacheth vsus eueryevery where, that in praying the spirit onlie helpeth our infirmities, no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of prayer through the Scripture. He hath sent into our hearts the spirit of his Sonne crying: Rom. 8.26. Gal. 4.6. 2. Cor. 4.13.ABBA Father. vve beleeue, therfore vve speake. Yet here is not anie shew of perfectiō of faith, but of the contrary, praying for our wantes. But this may be gathered, that God onelyonly accepteth the fruits of his owne spirit in prayer, and requireth no more of anie, but that euerie one according to the proportion of faith, pray vntounto him, as occasion in them requireth. Nowe to conclude that because in praying we neede not a booke to speake for vsus, when the heart it self and booke of our Conscience speaketh with God; that therefore fayth neuer needeth instruction, but is perfect, were sclanderous, false, and senselesse. The cause then of these heresies proceed hereof, that your selfe Mr. GIFFORD would needes frame two syllogismes, and in the moodes of your malice, cō straine the proposition of the present action in praying, to a general sentence of all times and actions, though both our question here was of the verie action of praying, and in the conclusion of that very poynt within six lynes after this, you had these wordes; Euen in the time of their begging at Gods hands; so that these heresies must be Mr. Giffords and not myne, seeing they are found to be coyned of his idle brayne, and godles heart, only to defame the trueth.
But (say you) the most part are ignorant, weake, short of memorie, &c. therefore need al helps to stir them vp to pray, &c. where, by your own confession, reading is not praying, but a help to stir vp to pray. And euen hereupon all our errours arise, that you cannot discerne the difference of spirituall gifts, with the distinct vse of them. We doubt not but before prayer, and all the dayes of our life we hauehave neede of helps of instruction to praye aright, and for the fitnes of the mind and bodie, often fasting, reading, meditating, etc. are great helpes to go before to humble our selues in praying: but in the present action of prayer when the heart is talking with God, the eyes, hands, etc. with attention lift vp to heauē, al the powers of our soules and bodies conuersant with God, to take a booke and read cannot be called in this action a help, but a confounding of the mind, of Gods ordinances, and a doing we know not what, though before and after, it be an excellent meanes ordeyned of God, to instruct vsus to pray and al other dueties.
As for the confirmation you talke of, where I alleadged that a troubled minde is the penne of a readie writer / therfore needeth not a booke to speake for yt in the action of praying: By troubled minde i vnderstood such a minde / as is presētly moued with the sight of some sinne / or vrged by other occasion:Psalm 5… 17. a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart: ād not such a minde as in dispayre or doubt ys perplexed: and that the heart which is moued in faith with present occasion to call vponupon God is the penne of a readie writer / (that is) hath matter ād wordes enough without a booc… to vtter yt owne wantes / we may reade throughout the Psalmes. My throte is dry (saith David) I am vvearie with crying &c. But here againe instead of answere / you tell me / I runne vppon the rocke of an hereticall opiniō of perfection: Wherin i wonder (but that i perceaue your right eye is blinded) you should be so carelesse what you say / nay what after two yeares studie you put in prynt. Doth it follow / that because the heart / moued with occasion through the worke of faith hath wordes and matter enough in praying without a booke to speake for yt / that therfore faith is perfect? let equal Iudges cōsider.
Here you say manie are so troubled & perplexed in minde, that they cannot pray till they hauehave some consolation by the direction of others; which whē they cannot hauehave, reading vponupon a booke is a notable help, I allowe al this and agree / if you would make reading one thing / and prayer an other / divers exercises of the spirit etc. But in the verie action of praying to hauehave an other speake vntounto vsus never so good wordes of exhortation / were but a confounding of the minde and actiō / and an abuse of both those holie exercises. Euen so / by your owne comparison / reading vponupon a booke in the action of praying / seing we cannot do both at once. Yt is the Spirit of God in the verie action of prayer that helpeth our infirmities. David in praying finding his soule heauie / stirreth vp himself thus. My soule whie art thou cast downe, Psalm 4… ende 43whie art thou disquieted within me, waite on God; For I will yet giuegive him thākes, my presēt help and my God. He had a troubled minde / his mouth wanted no wordes to prouoke the Lorde to heare his complaint / and his heart to waite vponupon the Lorde / and so through all the Psalmes you shall finde the conversing of the soule with God to be such / as yt were a mockery to think reading vponupon a booke could hauehave anie place in that action / or that anie mans writing could lay out the present estate of the soule with the passions therof. The Priest may say / my booke whie art thou so euill prynted, for whē they reade the heart cānot reasō and talke with God.
To the second poynt / which was but your bare assuming of the question / to say a man may pray by the spirit vponupon a booke &c. I alleadged that to worship God in spirit / is / when the inward faith of the heart bringeth fourth true invocation / etc. this you graunt to be most true / and that none other is accepted of GOD / then that which proceedeth from the inward faith of our owne heart: But you think that reading vponupon a booke is to bring fourth of the heart true inuocatiō. This cannot be if we consider the difference betweene proseuche and anagnosis prayer and reading / the one being a powring fourth of vowes / petitions / supplications / the other a receaving into the soule of such things as we reade. This therfore i leaue to all mens consciences to be considered / whether the matter we reade can be said a powring fourt of the heart / the whole vse of those divers actions through the whole Bible shew yt cannot. Now where I said that you teach men insteade of powring fourth their hearts / to help them selves with matter and wordes out of a booke / you say I speake fondlie and foolishlie / etc. Mine answeare now is / yt is well I lyed not / if I had said you compell men to reade vponupon a booke in all your publique assemblies / certaine wordes of your owne writings by number and stint / from yeare to yeare / and day to day the same / instead of powring out their hearts before the Lorde for their present wāts. I had not lyed. Now let all men by that which hath bene said consider the grossnes of yt / and so the follie remayneth to your self. But to help this matter / and to deliuer your self conningly in such strayte / you sa… you wish all men to vse the help of the booke▪ that they migt the better powre fourth their hearts vntounto God / being such as are not throughly able. First you graunt here / the prayers read vponupon the booke is not the powring fourth of the heart / but ought to be vsed only as an help wherbie you graunt the whole question / and furder all your assemblies hauehave had no other invocation of Gods name this many yeares / but a help to teach thē to powre fourth their hearts. But whether mens writings may be read in the publique assemblies to this vse / we shall after make manifest / Here yt is graunted but an help / and not the powring fourth of the heart. And to whom is yt an help? to such as are notable to pray. Here eyther you must confesse your whole ministerie is vnable to pray / or that they transgresse in this high worship of GOD: for in an other place you graunt in all your assemblies this reading is vsed of mens writings for prayer / thus you may behold your best worship to be nothingh but a help to teach you to pray.
Where I said that you teach men to fetch the cause of their sorrowing from the booke / euen in their tyme of begging at GODS hand / you say I speake fondly to call that the cause / which is the manifestacion of the cause etc. You here forget your artes / Is ther no more cau…es then one? if yt be the instrumentall cause / it is sufficient to prove / that if your Mininisters had not their booke / they had nothing to aske / or els asking that which is in the booke / they aske not that wich before was in their owne heartes / so not comming heauie loaden / they goe emptie away / and leave the matter in the booke as they founde yt / till the next day / and then sing the same songe. But true prayer is / when the heart is first prepared / and moued with the sight of their wants as the child that asketh breade: So we should not pray of custome / but aske the verie thing wherof our heart feeleth the want…et. Your comparison againe betwixt the being stirred vp by a Sermon / and stirred vp by reading sheweth / that your self will not make the reading the powring fourth of the heart.
Ther is no question but the exercise of reading is chieflie for instructiō and encrease of knowledge / and meditating is not the same / nether can be said to be al the vse of reading / though we denie reading to be praying: but because we are forbidden contētion about wordes / and I have offred you as much wrong in saying you denyed reading to be for meditation at all / I will proceede to the more necessarie doctrines. Also for the controversie of Canonicall and Apocryphall / we shall speak in due place.
Thus (say you) you have answered nothing at all vntounto this Commandement giuen by our saviour Christ to vse that prescript forme of prayer, say, Our Father &c. but by shift & cauill &c. Here you thinke you hauehave put me to a plunge / your self needed nothing doubt / but that I allowed the Cōmaundement holie and good / and to extend to al Christians / as well as to the Apostles / namely / to vse that prescript forme of prayer as the perfect patterne and direction to all mens true prayers. But you I trust will make difference betwixt a forme to all prayers / and praying / or prayer. And here you vehemently vrge me to answeare you / before I see you conclude any thing frō the place / and so I should runne into follie / to answeare a matter before I heare yt. In your first entrance of this discourse / you were rounde in your Syllogismes, by two at once to wrast my wordes / and can find none for yourself / Yt seemes your conscience is witnes the matter would not hang togeather. And me thinkes you had never more neede to hauehave shewed what you would drawe from this place Luke 11. seing I either mistooke you last time / or els you make a simple collectiō: which was this: Christ said to his Disciples, when you pray say Our Father. &c. and not when you meditate say Our Father. Now what would you conclude of this / except as I said that Christ would not hauehave them meditate that Scripture: But this I perceaue was not your meaninge: now I partlie thinke your Argument should be (if the sworde were not brokē in the sheath) thus▪ Christ commaunded his Disciples when they prayde to say Our Father, &c. therfore to be tyed to reade ouer or say by roate certeine wordes, is law full praying. For the first / that our Sauiour Christ tyed no man or commaunded none to say ouer those verie wordes when they prayde / but to pray according to that forme / after that maner as Matth. 6. I manifested in my first writing 1. that our Sauiour did not commaunde vsus to vse those wordes. 2 that Matth. 6. doth not keepe the same wordes / nor that number of wordes which Luke 11. doth 3. that he did not say / read these wordes when you pray / or say these wordes by roate. After all which reasōs slilye passed away in both your answeres / you come with your bare affirmation / that he commaunded those wordes to be said ouer by roate or reading: yea a litle after you say / it is false to say that he commaunded not the verie wordes to be said ouer when we pray. And you furder conclude / that because Christ commaunded his Disciples to say ouer those wordes / therfore all mens writings in the forme of praier may be brought into the publique assemblies to be read for praier / being agreable to the worde. To which I āswere that seing no mās writings are without error / yt is pernitious and blasphemous doctrine you collect. First because you make mens writings of equal autority with the forme of praier which Christ hath prescribed 2 for that you gyue mē as much liberty and authority to frame and impose their Liturgies as Christ had to set downe a forme of praier / he being Lord of the house. The wickednesse of which collections you shall neuer be able to answeare.
And because you here vrge me therunto / I will make answeare to your two places of Scripture / wherwith by false interpretation you deceaue the simple / which taken from you / your matter is nothingh but cauilling: The places are these / Luce 11. Nom. 6. and because the one explanes the other / and your collections the same from both / I will beginne with nombers 6.32.33.34. etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israell saying, the Lorde bless thee & keep thee, &c. Here you say they were commaunded to vse the verie wordes prescribed, in all their blessings. This I say is not true / for the Hebrew worde is Coh Tebaracu. thus shall you blesse: wher the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude / as we say / after this maner; which cannot be to say the same / but according to the same instructions. This worde Coh is ysed throughout the Bible in this maner / in all the Prophets whē they say / thus saith the Lorde: where the summe of their prophesies are onlie recorded to vsus by the holy Ghost / ād not all the wordes. Againe this blessing is vsed in the Psalmes and Chronicles in prayer / for the people / in manie other wordes.1. Sam 1.17 Ely blessed Hanna in other wordes / etc. And where by L…ce 11.2. yt is recorded / that our Sauiour Christ commaunded his Disciples / when you pray, say our Father, &c. yt is playne by the doctrines following. 4.5.6.8.11. verses / that Christ tyed no man to the verie wordes saying ouer / for he teacheth them to aske their particular wants / as a childe asketh breade or an egg of his Father: also to importune the Lorde for our particular wants. But to make this place more playne / the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Mathew 9. verse saith when you pray, say thus, Our Father, &c. where the greeke word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew worde Coh had which is / after this maner: and cannot be referred to the verie wordes saying ouer / wherupon Mr. Calvin vponupon those wordes saith / Noluit filius dei prescribere quibus verbis vtendum sit: The Sonne of God would not prescribe what wordes we must vse. Now consider how falslie Mr. Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures / to say the Priests wer commaunded to vse the verie wordes / and that Christ commaunded to vse the verie wordes. As for his collections / that therfore mens writings may be imposed vpō publique assemblies by stint and number to be prayde, vt is intollerable error, and bringeth in all popery.
Here I must call all men that reade this fruictlesse discourse to be witnes of Mr. Giffords abuse of his tongue / to the defacing of Gods truth. In his Epistle he proclaymed / that I called all men Idolaters; which you shall perceaue to be his owne wordes / and to that end I will breifly repeat yt. In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint ād limitation instead of true invocation / as also all reading mēs writings for praying / to be idolatrye. In his answeare he said / he could not see by what collour yt could be called Idolatrie, or maintayned out of Gods worde so to be; but yt seemes the penners of these things take eueryevery sinne against the first table of the lawe, to be Idolatry: if they do so (saith he) and with all do hold that no Idolater shalbe saued, then doubtlesse all are lost, &c. Tothis ignorāt excursorie I answered / that all false and devised worship by mans inuention was Idolatrye / as the first and second commandemens did testifie: And so admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatrye / yet reading of mens writinges instead of praying must needes be idolatry / seing yt is a transgression of the second Commandement. Furder (though I needed not have followed his emptye head / euen a cloude without water) yet I proceeded to proue / that no idolater could be saved but by repentance for their knowne sinne / and craving pardon with David for their hidden sinnes and secreat faults.Psalm 119 Moreouer (said I) do you thinke anie man is free from all inward and outward idolatrye / seing we cannot keep one Commaundement / and in some things we sinne all. In which wordes i plainelie reproued his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed any idolatrye / and that no idolater could be sauld / and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance / weaknes / and inperfection etc. in Gods children / and open professed obstinate idolatrie. Yet this godles man would lay to my chardg / that i should call all mē idolaters / wheras i neuer vsed such a worde in all my writings / But only answered his folly in this running out from the question / they were his owne wordes that brought this vponupon his owne heade / by concluding / that if eueryevery sinne against the first table were idolatrie / and no idolater could be saued / then all are lost / let the grosnes then be his and not mine. And i leaue it to the consideration of all men / whether i may not say / that they which trāsgresse the first or second Commaundements / do commit Idolatrie / without absurdity. But saith he though yt be so / yet the Scripture calleth not the godly / murtherers / Idolaters / etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning. I answere that therfore your former absurd cauilling where you said / if we hold it Idolatrie etc. ys by your owne mouth fully answered.
But to auoyde this foyle / he hath an other euasion. I thought (saith he) we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a Church is to be condēned and forsaken / which is defiled therwith. Here againe you misreport me: I neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse / but only laboured to shew all men this error of reading mēs writinges instead of praying / that they might learne how to conuerse with God and their owne Conscience / in prayer. And what mendes wil you make for this sclandering and defacing of the truth / to all the world? all that I desire is your repentance and amendement / which God graunt vntounto you if you you be his.
It followeth in your booke thus: But seeing you confess tha… all men be Idolaters, that is touching the remanents of sinne, it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots, &c. This worde idolaters must still be yours and then i willinglie graunt / that no man liuing is free from idolatrie / concerning the reliques of sinne: Also that no Church vponupon earth can be without spot vponupon earth: So that now / by your owne cōfessiō / I pleade not for perfection in this life / though the more we want / the more we ought to endeuour. With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle / and out of one mouth giuegive contrarie sentence? Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of vntruthes? was yt possible I should hold al men Idolatres / and some men without committing of sinne after regeneration / especially to mainetaine both such heresies as you gyve out? Well consider your self / before the Lord call you to accompt for defacing his truth / and pleading for Baal. I grant / yea / I were not of God if I should speake otherwise / that the deare servāts of God fall into most lothsome sinnes after regeneration / that the riches of Gods mercy might appeare in their repentance / through the worke of his grace. Then you reason thus: if ther be allwaies spottes and imperfectnes in the true Church vponupon earth / then al your Argumēts you bring against the Church of England / are of no force / except you will mainetaine a perfection. M… ne answeare is / I will not meddle with your Church to proue yt a false Church in this treatise / but refer you to Mr. Barrowes refutation of Mr. Gifford▪ him that handleth that part of your booke. Yet I must tel you your argument is verie simple: For after the same maner you migt reason thus: If ther be no true Church without spottes vponupon earth, then the Church of Rome is the true Church, for yt hath manie spottes, & you all Schismatiques: Againe you assume the matter you should proue. It wil be proued against you / that you hauehave not Ecclesiā a people called fourth of the world to the obedience of Christ: Then / that the spottes of your Church are Egiptian vlcers incurable running botches. But I purposed not to deale with your Church / only my mind is to shew the vnlawfullnes of this readingh and imposing mens writings vponupon mens Consciences in stead of true praying. Of which sinne the Lord giuegive you and this whole land grace to repent / that so men may learne more feruently to cal vponupon God.