Answer to Giffords Defense of Read Prayers, Text

Answer to Giffords Defense of Read Prayers · Text

p. 45A Fewe obseruations of Mr. Giffards last cavills about stinted read prayers / and devised Leitourgies.

HAving hertofore written an answere to Mr. George Giffards pretended defence of stinted read praiers and devised Leitourgies / and since receiued an emptie replie / wherin he doth nothing lesse then yeild to any sound reason alledged / but vngodlily cauilleth at and peruersly wresteth the sence of so much as he toucheth / I seeing no cause of further strife (his former convinced) to intermedle againe with perticular handling of his chaffe and smoke / his reasons in effect the same before āswered / hauehave only thought it my dutie to illustrate vntounto the Readers / some few brief poincts abused by him / that they may the better be able to iudge of the former writings / where vntounto with these few helpes following I refer the trial.

WHeras I alledged out of the 8. to the Rom. and out of the 4. to the Galath. that in the verie time and action of our praying to God / the spirit of God was the only help / no other help mentioned or that can be collected in the Scriptures / Mr. Giffard having granted that reading prayer is not praying / doth now answere / that howsoeuer the Scripture doth extol and magnifie outward helpes and meanes, yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them, or when the Scripture will set forth the efficacie and worke to be his alone, they are either not mentioned, or els if they be mentioned, so cast downe, as if they were nothing. God buyldeth his Church (saith he) by the ministerie of men, yet Paul is said to plant, Apollos to Water, but God to gyve the encrease 1. Cor, 3. and therfore to gather from those places Rom. 8. Gala▪ 4. that there neede or may be no outward help or meanes in the verie action and instant of praying, is far awrye. In which answer it euidētly appeareth he is so bent to turne away all truth and raise new strife / as ther can be no expectation of agreement: There is no sequence / neither doth the scripture alledged prove his owne reasō / so that nothing hāgs togeather. No mā doubteth but that sometimes and in some places of scripture the outward meanes of begetting and encreasing faith is only recited / ād sometimes the secret work of Gods spirit only / sometimes both / when yet they are not diuided but goe together / ād all of God both inward worke and outward meanes / though in way of comparison I never so read / but rather the one repeated for both: For shal I say / that when the work of God and preaching therof is shewed to be the power of God vntounto saluation / that the inward worke of the Spirit is therfore not mentioned / because the other is of God? then both inward and p. 46outward meanes being of God / ād Gods owne worke / though the one by instrument / that there is silencing of the one in way of cōparison / is not true. But all this is nothing to our matter: He should plainly hauehave affirmed / that frō these places Rō. 8. ād Gal. 4. it cānot be proued / that in the very instāt tyme ād actiō of owre praying to God / the spirit only instructeth / without outward helpes of instruction / and he should hauehave seene I could proue (as thē I did) the contrarie vntounto him Rō. 8.26. The spirit doth together supplye or help our infirmities for we knowe not what to pray as we ougt, but the spirit yt self maketh request for vsus with sighes ād grones vnvtterable. In the actiō of praying the spirit is here set downe in this place to be the meanes and help of instructiō / teaching vsus to aske aright / no other meanes or helpes of instruction in that instant time and action of praying mentioned in this or any other place of scripture: Therfore in the time of our praying and laying our hearts opē to God / the Spirit only doth instruct and openeth our mouth. In this place let the word synan…ilambanetai be wel considered. Againe Gal. 4.6 it is said because yee are sonnes, God sent the Spirit of his Sonne into your hearts crying, Abba, Father, The Argumēt here is the same thet before: this word (crying) sheweth the worcke of his Spirit or rather office / in our continuall occasions of prayer to direct vsus to vnburden and vnfold the heart / so that in the instāt action we see no other. And where I shewed him that reading in the actiō of praying could not be caled an help of instructiō at that time whē we were powring forth our hearts vntounto God / the eyes and hāds lyft vp to heaue / our meditation fixed vpō our knowē occasions / and heart and mouth vnfolding thē / my reason this / That the minde and bodie could not be intent vpō two diuerse distinct and seueral exercises and duties of minde and bodie at one time and instāt / he inverteth my words / and stealeth thē as a new shift to help him self (as he supposeth) returning thē thus in way of question / demanding whether fasting / lyfting vp our eyes and hāds to heauē / prostrating the bodie and kneeling be praier yt self / or outward meanes and helpes to make the prayer more fervēt. EueryEvery simple mā wil laugh at him (saith he) if he make thē prayer ytself: ād if they be helpes / thē I hauehave brought the former proofes not frō an idle / but from an vnsound brayne. Leaue scorning and reproch / and consider what helpes we did al this time intreate of was yt not instructiō of the minde by some other spiritual exercise then prayer in praying / wil he call fasting / kneeling etc. instructions of the minde what to pray? thē he must needs plead for his Image and al poperie / if these bodily actions and gestures be instructiō of the minde / which are but preparations to make the body serviceable ād apt to ād in this dutie. Further / how learnedly he disputeth to make reading one of these bodily gestures or bodily actions only / let it be cōsidered of. And as he cōfoundeth these bodily exercises and spirituall exercises / so he sheweth himself ignorant and vnable to discerne spiritual gyftes and exercises one from an other / with the distinct vse of them: demanding whither the voyce of an other tha… prayeth / be an outward help or p. 47prayer yt self / an outward meanes to make our prayer more fervent. He thinketh I will be laught at / if I say it be prayer yt self. Sure if in anie assemblie / or where two or three are in Christs name gathered together epito…uto and homothymadon vntounto the same thing and with one minde / for avoyding confusion they do vse but one voice / and that by Gods order and commandement / the others hearts going with the wordes ād saying Amen, they that heare pray not as wel as he that according to Gods ordinance speaketh / our publique prayers are not the prayers of the Church / but of him that speaketh only. But now God hath otherwise taught 1. Cor. 14. ād Acts. 4. yt must needs be / that Mr. Giss. is in great error to thinke none but he that speaketh prayeth. I take then such hearing of an others voyce / praying / ād this to be a foule error to publish the contrarie but that prayer both edifieth him that speaketh and him that heareth / and together in heart prayeth / I make no doubt. Yet herevpon to affirme / that here are other meanes of instruction to be vsed in the instant action of praying then praying yt self / were as grosse as the other / and both a confounding of spiritual exercises / and flat contradiction of the Scripture / especially so diverse weightie actions of minde and bodie / as proseuche, ād anagnosis, powring out our hearts to God in prayer / and reading. At other times I did not only allow / but teach / that we hauehave al the dayes of our lyves need to be instructed to pray aright / and that reading is a blessed meanes therevnto. So that you see whiles you of purpose will oppose / you runne your self vponupon the rocke: in stead of justifying your accusatiō of two heresies to be found in my first reason / you hauehave published this follie / which you must retract / if you wil obey the truth. Mr. Giffard thē granting / that reading is but to help to prayer and not praying / ād now being shewed that it cā be no help in that instant action of praying / let vsus proceede to pervse an other of his mistakings and willful peruertings. I affirming that the holy Ghost neuer enioyned vsus to any certaine nūber of words by stint and limitatiō in praying / as commanding the very words to be said ouer whē we pray / he eueryevery where in his wrytings as a supposed foundatiō to their Leitourgie and Collects / alledged out of Numbers the 6. Mat. 6. Lu. 11. exāple of Psalmes / ād now Deu. 26. that the Lord did by cōmādemēt binde thē to those verie words saiing ouer / whē they prayed or blessed in those formes which are there prescribed. For my reasons in disproving this popish carnal cōceipt / I refer the Reader to my former answeare to his plublished pretended defence of reading for praying. One reasō was drawē frō the words of the text Numb. 6.32. where the hebrew words Coh Tebara…u, thus shal you blesse / do not import a tying thē to the verie words of this forme in blessing / but to the rules and instructions there taught them concerning the matter yt self for their direction / which I collected by this word Coh, which is an adverb of similitude / signifiing with vsus as much as (after this maner) and therfore cānot be …o say the same words / but according to the same instructions. Where first he reprocheth me for that Tebaracu was false p. 48printed / therevpon chardging me I cannot reade twoo words right of hebrue / which were no great ignominie in their priesthood: But shall we say Mr. Giff. cannot reade two words in latine rightly / because in the 28. page of his booke he repeateth out of Augustine / upoli sui / for populi sui? This I mention / as sory to see the defendor of his false Hierarchie so emptie / to leaue founde doctrine / and thus to trifle: if he had bene at the print / it should hauehave bene amēded it seemeth. Now to the doctrine gathered of this word Coh. Mr. Gif. would invert the words in his owne sēse / thus: that where I said / the Lord did not cōmaund to say the same words but the like / that is according to those directions of doctrine / he gathereth / that I should affirme yt vnlawfull to vse those words at all / yea that they might not vse all or anie of these words at anie tyme. Whether this be a Christian interpretation of my words or no / I leaue not only to all mens / but chieflie to his owne conscience to be considered. Yet he still couertly persisting in his error / produceth a place of scripture / where the word Coh (as he thinketh) is vsed for the saying of the verie words. Exod.;. The Lord said to Moses / Thus shalt thou say vntounto the children of Israel Eheie hath sent me vntounto yee / moreouer God said vntounto Moses / thus shalt thou say vntounto them / The God of your Fathers etc. According to Mr. Grenewoods interpretation (saith he) Moses is not commanded to say those words / but the like. True / he is not here bound to this certeine number of words / or the same words. If then they should say / what is his name that hath sent thee / he may not say Eheie hath sent me / because God said Coh etc. Now Mr. Giffard sheweth himself ashifter: I did neuer hold it vnlawfull to vse anie wordes of the Scripture as need required / it is your sclander: where you have in all your bookes affirmed we hold it vnlawfull to say thy kingdome come / or vse anie phrase of Scripture to right vse: your woeful wresting of the tongue for vntruthes / wil tourne to your further iudgment. I proued only by the word Coh, which signifieth (after this maner) that God commaunded not the very certaine number of words to be said.

And where I sayd the word Coh was so vsed in all the Prophets (when they say / Thus saith the Lord) to this end / that neither the holy Ghost had registredal their verie words they spake▪ nor that they were tyed to the prescript number of words / he would hauehave it thought I should hold those words which are recorded / not to be the words of God / which wresting of my words / is but his emptie quarreling to turne away this firme doctrine: namely / that God did in those formes of prayer mentioned by him / prescribe the somme of their blessings ād petitions / whervnto they ought according to their seuerall occasions within the limits of these doctrines / frame their suites and desires / ād did not tye them to a certaine number of words. Now he finding himself pressed / in that al his proofes are at once brought to be weapōs against him rather then warrant / It being prooved vntounto him that those formes are repeated in other words in other places / and that the Priests p. 49vsed other in blessing the people / as Eli blessed Hanna: also that the Apostles vsed other words in prayer / and neuer that verie forme and number of words / he playnly denyeth that our question was about the bynding and limiting to the verie words by commandement / and saith our question was / whither it were idolatrie to vse those prescript phrases or no. Thus the man is sled / not only contradicting all his writinges / making voide his proofes / but granting as much as I affirmed vponupon the word COH hath gyven mee the whole cause against …is will: For if these places will not serue to prove an apportioning by number and stint vponupon commandement / then Mr. Gissard hath no profe for his Collect… / no though these had bene so / yet his patched broken mass booke shoulde hauehave bene far from comming in place of true pr…yer.

But that this is a popish dreame to think in prayer they were bound to some certeyne number of words saying ouer / it was also conuinced vntounto him by the Greeke word Houtos, where Christ commandeth his Disciples saying / When you pray, pray thus, Our Father, &c. Which word Thus Mat. 6.9. singnifieth (after this maner) or according to this forme / rules / and instructions: for if the commandement shoulde goe to bynde vsus to the very words / then this word (when you pray) would bynd vsus never to vse other words / for the text saith / when you pray, say thus. To this he answereth / that respecting the rules for matters / when is as much as whensoeuer you pray / because we may not depart from those matters conteyned in those general petitions: But in words it is not so there / We must consider to distinguish et…3. Wel / hath he not lost himself / and still against his will yeilded the matter: namely that wee are not in these formes of prayer bound to the verie words saying ouer / and that the holy Ghost did neuer by commandement stint or limit vsus to anie words in praying / which in deed is common with inchanters: And I take it he will easily yeild me this point / for if he remember Augustine to teach / that then we pray that prayer which Christ taught his Disciples / when our prayers are grounded vponupon those doctrines and instructions / or to that effect: And Calvine to say: the Sonne of mā would not prescribe vsus what words we must vse in prayer / he should hauehave put vsus to lesse trouble: So that besids his mass-booke was neuer prescribed by the Lord himself or warrant of his word / he seeth it vnlawful to apportion / limit and stint as by measure and waight certeine numbers of wordes / sentēces etc. in prayer. As for his examples of the Psalmes: I refer to my former answere / namely / that praying is our thing / and singing a psalme an other.

Now then we hauehave heard that reading is not praying or any help to pray in the instant action of praying / when we should powre forth our owne hearts to God: Also that it is vnlawful to bynde mā to numbers of words or sentences in praying. Let vsus come to the first generall argument / which is this. No Apocrypha must be brought into the publick assemblies / for there only Gods word and the lively voyce of p. 50his owne graces must be heard in the publick assemblies: But mens wrytings and the reading them ouer for prayer are Apocrypha: Therfore may not be brought into the publick assemblies / eyther for lawes or worship. Here hee finds fault with the worde Apocrypha (although it hath bene an antient word in this sense / and now published in their Bibles to distinguish other writings from the authentick scriptures) willing mee to goe to the matter yt self / drawing by firme conclusion / that nothing is to be allowed any place in the Church / which is not the perfect rule yt self in writing or without errour vttered in speach / and he wil yeild. This I did proue vntounto him by an Argument hee was not able to answere / and did leaue out the word Apocrypha, thus. Only the Canonical Scriptures and liuely voice of Gods owne graces are to be brought into the publick assemblies for doctrine and prayer: But mens writings or Collections are neither Canonical Scripture / nor the liuely voice of Gods graces in such as he hath appointed to speake in the publick assēblies. Therfore no mans writings may be brought into nor imposed vponupon the publick assemblies for doctrine and prayer.

Now where he cauilleth about the perfectnes of the rule and absolute perfectnes of the graces / it doth not help him: For the word of GOD being of necessitie by the lawe and ordinance of God / to be read in our owne language / I trust he will not denye yt to be the written word of GOD for the vnperfectnes of the translation / being (to the best search the Church can make) skanned by the original tongue and stil amended / or at least the Church no further bound to yt / then yt shal be found to be the perfect rule: so likewise the liuely voice of GODS graces are not for the imperfectnes to be excluded / being Gods appointed ordinance / neither is anie fault in the translation to be allowed / and errour in doctrine or prayer are presently to be admonished and repented of. Maister Giffard then must denye the Bible translated into our owne language to be the Canonicall Scriptures / and denye the liuely voice of GODS lawfull officers / and such as are therevnto called / in doctrine and prayer / to be the manifestations of the Spirit and vtterance of Gods graces for the assemblie / or els grant the proposition firme: And if hee can put dead mens writinges into the place of either of these / I will yeild. In the meane time I hold such translations to be the worde of GOD / and by Gods ordinance put into our owne lāguage / to all our knowledges retayning the words of GOD / which word and the lyuely vse of Gods owne graces in the mouth of such as he therevnto appointeth / are only to be brought into the publicke assemblies for prayer and doctrine / for GOD hath commanded these vntounto vsus as his owne ordinances in his assemblies / and no other means wherby either God speaketh vntounto vsus / or his people vntounto him / in the Congregation. To this all the Scriptures beare witnesse / the word is always firme / confirmed with miracles from heauen / and commended to vsus by Christ / the Prophetts and Apostles / to be p. 51the foundation / Canon / light / lanterne / etc. the graces of the Spirit gyven for the interpretation / prayer / doctrine etc. Christ is ascended vp into heauen / and hath giuen giftes vntounto men to serve their tyme and minister in their place in this house. These graces stil renewed / not only in those called of GOD in this seruice for their dayly administration / but newe workmen thrust forth into this haruest / as the Lord of the house disposeth: which graces of his Spirit are compared to two oliue branches / which emptie out of themselues thorow two golden pipes. Zacharie 4.12. And to seuen thunders which vtter their voices that cannot be written. Away therfore with your patched mass-booke / yt may neither stande for a foundation in Gods house / nor for the lyuely voyces of these thunders: you make yt a monstrous Idoll by putting yt in either of these vses / yet you will make yt serve for both. Wee hauehave nothing to do with your matters of order / as you vnderstād that order for tyme / place / etc. wee reason of the Spirituall action yt self / when wee entreat of the meanes whereby God speaketh to vsus / and appointeth vsus to speake vntounto him. Wee can cast out the errours in the translatiō or doctrine or prayer / and yet reeaine Gods worde in our owne language / and the liuely voice of his graces in the …assemblie: When you can do so with your deuises and newe hatched Leitourgies wee will giuegive eare vntounto you and them / till then wee thinck of your counterfeit playes and pleas for your Idolls and detestable sacriledge and high prophanation of GODS ordinances with Iannes and Iambres to resist the truth. Paraphrases wee hold to be mens writinges and expositions / and not the word of GOD / nor the liuely voice of Gods grace of interpretation or prayer / therefore to be excluded this place of service vntounto GOD. Thus you see the further you wrastle / the further you make your wares / the best of them / odious to euerie godly conscience. You say I deceiue the simple by gyuing them one crabbe amongst many apples: but you may behold your best apples such as the holy GHOST hath foretold vsus Revelation. 18. to be entisements to euil: It is well you will grant my Propositions so sound: and I would wish (if such de GODS wil) they might be better sauoured.

Nowe because I wil not stand either repeating or contending about Syllogismes / I will take this much yeilded of your owne conclusions / which is as much in effect as I hauehave affirmed were you teach me thus to reason. No mans writings are the vndoubted truth of God / but hauehave errours and imperfections: therfore men cannot further ground vponupon them / then they be consonant to the Canonicall Scriptures. Againe / The Church is builded vponupon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets: therfore our faith is not to rest vponupon mēs writings. Wherevpon doth necessarily follow / that if mens writings may not be builded vponupon nor rested vponupon / howe should you dreame it lawfull to impose them for lawes vponupon the publick assemblies / or to hauehave them there read to beare rule as the wordes of God? And this you confessed p. 52in an other of your writings / that GOD spake vntounto vsus out of his vndoubted worde / or by his owne word. If then GOD speake not vntounto vsus by mens writinges that be of priuate interpretation / in the assemblie / nor that they can be made groundwork to buyld our faith vponupon / or to rest assured vponupon / yt will be granted I hope that they are not to be imposed v…on the publick assemblies as lawes and rules / but left to euerie mans private vse in their libertie / as they will answere for themselues what vse they put them to / and whither they doe not prefer them before the booke of GOD / or preiudice themselves by them. This first poinct is then plaine / That only GODS vndoubted worde is to be imposed / brought in / ād maintayned in the publick assemblies as lawes and rules / no other writings being authentick or Canonical.

But here Mr. Giffard doth in effect affirme / that the word of God yt self is not authentick or Canonical / except in the Hebrew or Greeke Copie: Wherin he goeth a litle beyond the Papists / that wil yet allow the worde of GOD in latine: And if it shoulde be defended / that the worde of GOD were not the worde yt self that wee hauehave in our owne language / it will follow that no man could hauehave assurance of faith / except he vnderstoode both Hebrew and Greeke / yea be able soundly to interpret the Scriptures in both. If the translations be so far mens writings that yt ceaseth generally to be the word of GOD that is not written in Hebrew or Greek / and mens writinges not to be grounded or rested vponupon / where shall our assurance stand? And might not Mr. Giffard as well say the Hebrew and Greek Copi… are but paper anky…ck / many faults and errours by the print in vowells / accents letters / and so conclude we had not Authentick or canonicall Scriptures at al / except mens erronious writings might be of equall authoritie in the assemblie that the Scriptures? must he not beare with mee in accompting him an Atheist or Libertine in thus reasoning? Hence then we see whiles you go about to abase the Canonicall Scriptures / and extol your patched Le…tourgie you fall into manie blasphemies / as I hauehave before told you. Wee hold yt the word of GOD in what language soeuer / stil reiecting the errours in the print / in the translations etc. as they are knowne vntounto vsus / and not the word y… self for the imperfections or errours in the translation and print. Now when you can make that which remayneth the vndoubted worde of God / not agreable only but an Authentick approued Canonicall Scripture / authorised from God to be the verie eternal foundation and rules / limitts and lawes giuen by himself vntounto his people you may lift vp your … Dagō into this place / if there be some truth in their writings (as what mens writings hauehave not some / and the holy name of GOD verie much) yet is that truth in the Scripture yt self and here so mingled with chaffe / that it were not only vnprofitable and a hinderance of the true vse of GODS worde / but an abolishing and defacing of the p. 53word yt self / the maiestie whereof ought to terrifie you from this presumption.

And where you say that you decide not controversies by anie translation / but by the Authentick Copies of the Hebrew and Greke / I trust you speak only of such as are able by the interpretation thereof so to decide controversies / and holde it not vnlawfull for anie such as hauehave not that help / to convince errour by the powre of the word and conferring one place with an other in anie translation / according to the analogie of faith / though I grant we ought to vse the best approued. But if this were not lawfull surely no man might prophesie in the Church / which hath not the gift of interpretation of the tongue / neither might any affirme any Scripture to be true but they wich hauehave knowledg of tongues: How blasphemous is this g…are / whiles you are ignorant of the powre / wisdome and agreement of the word and Spirit and diuersitie of giftes giuen vntounto men: The Word and the Spirit approue ech other / and beare w…ness ech of other / in what language soeuer GOD giueth yt / to our vnderstanding. Prophesie and knowledg of tongues are two seueral giftes not alwayes giuen to one member / but distributed as God in his wisdome hath appointed. 1. Cor. 12. and prophesie commanded for the more excellent Cap. 14. But this is sufficient in this place / that the word of God is the word of God in what language soeuer / and to accompt yt being verbatim translated or at least so far foorth faithfully translated / mans writing / were blasphemie: but mens writings can neuer be so holden the authentick Scriptures of God / how agreable to the wo… soeuer they be. My argument is then firme / and thus left vponupon you: Those writings which be not the word of God being imperfect / and neuer without error / may not be imponed as lawes and Canons vponupon the publick assemblies / or there be read or interpreted / or offred vp in worship: But such are al mens writings that be not the authentick word of God yt self▪ The publick assemblies are only bound to the reading and interpretation of the Scriptures / which God hath ordeined to be read in a knowne language / ād for prayer and prophesie hath ordeined the liuely voice of his owne graces in the mouth of such as he hath appointed to be the mouth of the Congregation vntounto him ād his mouth vntounto thē. So that your patched Leitourgie / paraphrases songes in rime / homelies / and al your dead mens writings / are cast forth of the publick assemblies / and manifest to be Idols when they are thrust into that place.

Now where I …ledged that the binding of the publick assēblie / yea of all assemblies / to certeyne writings of men euerie day and yeare their number and portion of words daylie mōthly and yearely in al assēblies the same matter and words reiterated in s…ead of powring forth their hearts vntounto God according to their present needs and occasions was a setting of themselves in Gods seate and taking the office of his Spirit / which only knoweth the wantes of the seueral assemblies according to their diuerse occasions / he runneth away from the matter / as one vnwilling p. 54to heare of this their Tautologia and counter…et babling / demā ding wheter euerie one should vtter their owne perticular wantes in the publick assemblie / or should pray nothing but that euerie one feeleth the present want of in himself / or should tell the Minister before hand what euerie one of their wantes were▪ then how the Minister should remember al. Are these any thing but m…re cauils? can any of these follow vponupon the former doctrine? And let him looke againe / whether he that is the mouth of the Congregation vntounto God in publick prayer / must not consider the present publick occasions of that publick assemblie / and thereafter frame his prayers / all the people ioyning in heart to his words of petition or thanksgiuing / saying Amen to so much as he asketh according to the wil of God and neede of the time / yea and if they hauehave not feeling in such prayers / they are vnfeeling members: yet neither doth he intermedle with private or secret wātes / neither neede they tell him them he is sent for the publick affaires of the Church / to commend the seueral actions general and publick / vntounto God: And as they are diverse in everie assemblie / so must he be a mā of wisdome to know / see / and consider them / lest they al rashly step into the house of God to offer vp the sacrifie of fooles / and make a counterfeit babling Eccle. 4. Yet the sinne of this is nothing comparable to the do…ng your Priests cast forth by pratling ouer your English Portuis / which the Lord will one day cast in your faces. As then in priuate prayer we are to lay forth our owne wantes and estate of our owne soule / which cannot be done by reading an other mans writings / alwayes singing one song / customably repeating in superstition certeine words / our hearts neuer ripped vp / examined / nor the diseases therof layd open vntounto God / seeking due cure: So the man that is the mouth of the whole assemblie prayeth / as the mouth of one bodie / for al their open publick present wantes and occasions: Which occasions / considering the persons and actions / are diverse and cannot be written for one assemblie before hand / muchlesse for all assemblies in a whole kingdome / neither by man nor Angel. See thē the mockerye of your service booke / and what Idolatrie is committed by yt / to the abandoning true prayer according to the present wantes and occasion.

The next thing to be cōsidered / is / about making of lawes in the worship of God. Where he would persuade vsus that their whole Leitourgie conteining al their publick worship / gouernmēt / offices and ordinances of their Church / be but matters of order and conveniencie. Then the compelling and teaching the publick assemblie to reade ouer mens writings both as Canōs and lawes in the Church / ād publickly ād priuately to offer them vp in stead of true prayer ād holy invocatiō is a matter of comelines and conveniencie. In the meane time it must be a turning away of the whole order and ordināces of God: For what is the whole Testament of Christ but an order for euerie office / person / action in the Church / if he wil hauehave it taxis and then must confesse their Leitourgie an other order of publick administratiō / and so as I hauehave said an other p. 55Gospel / an other Testament / a setting vp an other worship. And herevpon I trust I may cal al this an adding to the word of God / yea I wil go a litle further / an abolishing and disabling and dishonoring of the word yt self and graces of his spirit. And whither all this smoke of the bottomlesse pyt may not be reproued with these Scriptures / not only Proverb. 30. verse 5.6. Deut. 4. verse. 32, but also Revel. 22. verse 18 19. let the godly ponder and search: and let the fearefulnes of the threats deterre all flesh from presuming to alter the ordinances / lawes and worship of the most high God. And that the verie reading of an other mans writing for my owne prayer / or the prayer of the Church / in stead of powring foorth our owne hearts / is a changing of the whole worship into the making mens writing an Idoll / which is by these places condemned as an accursed sinne: let the most hard text (as he in carnall wonder exclaymeth) be looked into Revel. 22. verse 18.19. The words are plaine: If anie man put or add any thing vntounto these / or if anie man take away from these words / he shalbe iudged as followeth. Now if the adding an other whole Worship / and suppressing of that God hath apointed / be not an adding to these things written / gyue sentence as you wil answere.

O (saith he) but it is said God wil add vntounto such al the plagues written in this booke / and there is in this booke mentioned the lake of fire: As though the lake of fire is not due for eueryevery sinne / and yet not eueryevery one that committeth sinne to be condemned / what sinne is it that deserueth not the eternall wrath of God? yet not eueryevery one that sinneth giuē ouer to that iudgmēt / for ei…her yt may be of ignorance / or of negligence / and washed away by repentance in the blood of Christ / or it may be repented of and lest when wee see yt. Mr. Giffard hath read wel the curses of the law and all the curses due for sinne that seeth not how many curses the law and the Prophets pronounced vponupon sinne / to call the persons themselues to repentance: shewing together the equitie of God… law / and yet withal the free mercye of God to al that truly repēt their euil wayes. All that receiue the Beastes marke in their hand or forehead / are thretned to be cast with the Beast and false Prophet into that lake / yet i doubt not but manie that hauehave bene so seduced into that sinne / shal by repentance be saued: Not that I encourage anie to continue in such fearful estate / to hardē their hearts against the threatnings of GOD but that I would hauehave Maister Giffard to put difference betwene the curse layd to the sinne / and condemnation of the person sinning: And seeing he taketh that lake a perticular seuere threat to the Apostasie vnderunder ANTICHRIST / I would he had the grace to consider how it lyeth vponupon him / whiles he speaketh out of the mouth of the Beast / if he repent not to turne from his euil wayes.

Let it further be weighed how ignorantly he chargeth me to condemne al Churches / for this finale examplifying of this Egiptian darknes / Idolatrous worship / and exalting mens writings into this defacing of p. 56Gods word and true worship / they neither being guylty of such a sacrilegious Leitourgie / as this Egiptian Calf hatched at Rome / neither are to be presently iudged no Church for others sinne / till they ioyne obstinacie to their transgression. But shift the matter as you wil / or rather as you can appeare before God / I wil not make lesse the sinne / or the iudgment due to sinne / for mens persons no not of whole Churches / if they shal be guilty therin: My desire is by discouerie of the sinne / to bring men to repentance / and vntounto the awe of God in his worship: who are guyltie besides your selues in such sacriledge / as to abrogate the Leitourgy of Christ / and set vp an other / or to restraine Gods true worship and to giuegive life to the image of the Beast / it shilleth me not: let sinne be sinne / and GOD righteous / and them examine yourselves / if they or you be cleare I reioyce / neither do I thinck or can charge them with such Idolatrie as is here erected: I take it you wil be found the sclanderer of other Churches / to hide your owne filthines.

But saith Mr. Giffard those Scriptures are against the adding of humane preceptes and lawes to be kept as par…s of Gods wurship to …ind the conscience to seek righteousnes and the forgiuenes of sinnes / or the merit of eternal life in them / or against such rules of gouernment as God hath set to be perpetual. In which we must take your meaning to be this / that you grant where anie humane precepts and lawes be enforced as a part of GODS worship / or as lawes to bind the conscience / or when righteousnes is sought in them / and forgiuenes of sinnes by observing of them or merit by them / or if they be against such rules of gouernment as GOD hath let to be perpetuall / if the additions or constitutions be such as anie of these then such lawes and constitutions are against the perfection of the word of God / against Christian libertie / and in the chief things which concerne Gods worship against the ground and foundation of our faith and so a thing most detestable and accursed / which our Sauiour CHRIST refused iustly to obserue with the blinde Pharis…is / wherein you hauehave granted as much as I euer affirmed: For is not your whole Leitournie being an other then CHRISTS Testament your whole reading mens writings in place and in stead of laying forth your owne present wantes and occasions in prayer to God humane constitutions / ād made a parte of Gods worship? at least such pretended worship as you thinke good enough for him? Weygh the matter vnrightly: Againe / whither your whole Antichristian gouernment / offices / Courtes and ministerie / be not constitutions and ordinances against such rules of Christs gouernment as be perpetual and an innovating of his Testament / examine / which you shall soone perceiue / if you looke but what Christs perpetuall ordinances / offices / officers and lawes for the guyding / ordering and gouerning of his CHURCH be / prescribing euerie one their place / dutie and limits iointly and seuerally / and not finde your ministerie registered there / but a strange Leitourgie and worship borrowed p. 57from the Pope / which came out of the bottomlesse pit / confesse your sacriledge in suppressing CHRISTS whole ministerie and ordinances / and erecting an other for the perpetuitie of his / euen to euerie naile and p…n: The holy Ghost sheweth that only to be his ministerie / till we be all a perfect body in him / and his whole ministerie and ordinances a kingdome that cannot be shaken. Hebre. 12. Ephes. 4. a commandement to be kept vndefiled till the apearing of IESUS CHRIST: his Scepter an euerlasting Scepter / the Sonne as faithfull in his house as Moses a servant in the Tabernacle / who made all things according to the paterne: So that it is to be wondred Mr. Giffard should think anie part of Christs gouernment should not be perpetuall / that was giuen by his Apostles the master buylders and layers of the foundation / wherby all actions should be tried to the worlds end. May not Mr. Giffard as wel cal into question the perpetuite of the Testamēt / as the lawes and rules for the governmēt of his Church. Now if your whole false Hierarchie / Offices / Officers / Lawes / Worship / be plainly other then Christs / as in our other writings are proued / and shame will inhibit you to deny / how can you be so drunke with the cup of the Whores fornication / to think you hauehave no constitutions / lawes or traditions / which are a part of worship / and against such rules of Christs gouernment as the Apostles hauehave prescribed for the ordring of his howse / and the same ordeyned for all Churches til we become all a perfect bodye in him?

But if Mr. Giffard wil shew himself so voide of al consciēce ād truth to say al their traditionall worship and Antichristian Offices and ordinances be neither part of their worship nor constitutions disanulling the ordinances of Christ / yet wil he confesse I doubt not this kinde of worship and gouernment to be imposed as matters to binde the consciē ce / being all the seruice of God they hauehave / seeing hee woulde also hauehave al that obserue them not / to be censured and excommunicat for this marchandize: yt were a sore matter a man should be cut of from Christ and his Church / gyuen ouer to Satan / and the iudgment ratified in heauen against soule and bodye / for a matter that byndes not the conscience / As though the soule and bodye (howsoeuer some things perteine to the one / or is done by the one as proper worke there of) were not both to be counted when the conscience shalbe opened to answere for all done in both / or by eyther of both / even whatsoeuer wee hauehave done in soule and bodye: and Calvine would but diuide the soule and the bodye in Ciuile causes. But Maister Giffard would goe a note further … namely / that in the seruice of GOD in such causes as the transgression deserue excommunication / to be no matter bynding the conscience.

But it may be Maister Giffard doth suppose / that except the constitutions ecclesiasticall be such, as righteousnes be commanded to be sought in the doing them, and forgiuenes of sinnes and merit by them, all is wel. Then / besides the other hbuses granted / he must de demanded p. 58whither those traditions of the Fathers / which our Sauiour Christ and his Disciples refused to observe / were imposed as meritorious / whervnto wee answere / No: For in the superstitious washings of cuppes / of beddes / with al such trincketts / wee see to be no such matter Marke 7. and Christs words in saying / they layde the commandements of God aside to set vp their owne traditions / doth shew wherin the sinne was: namelie / to do and observe such things of vaine glorie / superstition / or custome as God had not inioyned them / and to leaue vndone the lawes and commandements of God / which sinne is your transgression at this day: Reade therfore the 7. of Marke / and 15. of Mathew more diligently. Further those superstitious traditiōs Gal, 4. and Colos. 2. the observing wherof were the denyall of Christ / were neither held meritorious / nor iustification sought by them / manie of them being Iewish ceremonies / sometimes as rudiments commanded of God / now abolished and no further burden to be layde in such outward thinges / no / We reade not that the law of God yt self was eyther commanded / or so observed / as to seeke righteousnes by yt. Now then to the matter: Mr. Giff. thinketh Christ and his Apostles did well in refusing to obey the traditions of the Fathers at the Pharisies commandement, and so must confesse it lawful and a dutie of vsus to refuse to observe your Iewish cerimonies and Romish superstitious traditions / which are so manie as euen your whole Leitourgie and worship conteine nothing els / Gods lawes and ordinances not only left vndone but al that pleade for them and seeke to walke in them / persecuted with deadly hatred.

And how Mr. Giffard will proue that there is no adding or diminishing to or from the word of God / by imposing and creating more lawes thē God hath made in his worship and gouernmēt of his Church / but such as bee made part of the worship / or bynde the consciēce / or bee meritorious / or against such rules of his gouernment as bee perpetuall though I take all your orders / lawes / worship in this compasse / yet howe you can poue this / I know not / for looke againe vponupon the scriptures Pro. 30.5.6. Deut. 4.2. and 12.32. and Gal. 3.15. Revel. 22.18.19. and you shal finde / that to add / superordeine / innovate or diminish or take anie thing from the lawes of God already prescribed for his worship / were to abrogate his lawe / to laye further burdens then hee hath layde to make his lawe vnperfect / and set our selves in his seate / yea whatsoeuer wee put to which hee hath not commanded / or whatsoeuer wee inhibit that hee hath commanded / is here forbidden: For this saith the Lorde / Ye shall put nothing vntounto the word which I command you, neither shall you take ought therefrom that you may keepe the preceptes of the Lorde your God which I commande you Deut. 4.2. And that this was as well in the outwarde ordināces of the Temple as in the iudgments / is plaine in the first verse. Againe in the 12. Chap. 32. Whatsoeuer I command you, take heede you do yt; Thou shalt put nothing therto nor take anie thing therfrom: and in the Proverbs. Euerie word of God is pure, put nothing vntounto his wordes lest hee reproue the ād thow bee found a lyer. Now p. 59the scripture speaking so absolutely and generaly against al addition or detraction to or from his ordinances / Mr. Giffard ouershooteth himself of his bare word to contradict and limit so expresse commandementes / for these Scriptures (saith hee) are against adding of humane preceptes and lawes to bee kept as partes of Gods worship / to bynde the conscience to seeke righteousnes / forgeuenes of sinne / merit in them / or against such rules of gouernmēt as God hath set to be perpetuall. This is true / but this is not all / for the lawe is generall against all inventiōs / traditions / constitutions / whatsoeuer God hath not commanded / as the second Commandment doth also teach. Thou shalt not make to thy self etc. so that God hath left nothing to be layde vponupon his Church by commandement / Which he hath not commanded: And therfore that place of the Apostle to the Gal. 3.15. must be better pervsed: If it be but a mans Testament when yt is confirmed no man doth abrogate yt or superordeine anie thing to yt: CHRISTS Testament then being much more perfect / his whole minde for the ordering of his house manifested therin / it is wicked presumption to alter the ordinances thereof / or to holde them vnmeete or vnsufficient for anie age or estate.

Well Mr. Giffard coulde nowe bee content thus far to limit the power of the Church: namelie / to hauehave her subiect and obedient to his voice: but that he supposeth there may be lawes ecclesiastical made / of things in themselues indifferent: that where the scripture hath commanded such things to be vsed at our libertie for order / for comelynes / edification and glorye of God / as matters of place / time / and such circumstance. But hee here mistaketh his text / for the Lorde commandeth by the Apostle in that place / …. Corint. 14. that those publique busines and exercises of the assembli…s / shoulde be done in order / in comlynes / to edifying / and doth not leaue somthing to bee commanded / which the maister buylders hath not prescribed: For to binde those thinges by lawe which God hath not bound in his worship / were to add newe traditio…s to bring vsus into bondage of the creatures / which the same Apostle denyeth euer to bee brought into bondage vntounto 1. Cor. 6.12. in his owne person teaching vsus so to walke: the Lord see in his wisdome cause to leaue them in our libertie / knowing there woulde bee no end of such perticular lawes / especially if he had left it to mans wyt to make and vnmake lawes therin: For the orders you speake of then / meaning circumstances of time / place / kneeling / sitting / standing etc. there can be no further lawes of them / then the Apostle hath set / and (as the Minister of Christ prescribed) that al be donne to edifying in comlynies / order / etc. Of theis to set perticular lawes / were to break these generall lawes of God / whereby he teacheth vsus the true vse of them / and leaueth them in the Churches libertie as need requireth to vse them or not vse them: Neither can all assemblies bee bound in these thinges to the same in perticular / that being needfull and decent in one / that is not in an other. And in that you woulde hauehave them no further commanded / then they bee needfull / convenient / decent etc. you condiscend that p. 60there can bee no setled lawe in perticular layde vpō the Church in thē: For to vse them so far as they bee convenient / necessarie / and to edifijng is the lawe and commandement of God: and to vse them further at anie mans commandement / were both a breach of Gods lawe / and making the creatures stumbling blockes / Idolles / bondages / and euerie way sinnefull. And when the Church commandeth them so far to be vsed as they are commanded of God / the Churche doth but ratifye and see GODS lawe executed: so that you hauehave lost your selfe / whiles you sholde hauehave proued your bold affection: That the Church hath power to ordeyne lawes / for to create or make lawes / which you see the folly of / being nowe driuen to another shift: that in the perticular thinges whereof GOD hath giuen generall lawes / wee may make setled lawes / and yet but for the tyme they be convenient: Wheras in deed GODS lawe is the same and nothing ells. But because they bee necessarye in one place / that bee not in another / at one tyme / that bee not at another / of somme persons / that bee not to other / ther can bee no lawe sett in the perticular one daye for all assemblies in such thinges. Neither shall anye disagrement bee such amongst the seuerall Churches / as need anye contention for them / whiles euerie assemblye doe that wich is to themselues most meet / most convenient and necessary in such things / for the present tyme. The Pastor and Elders were of small discretion if they might not hauehave these thinges in their libertie: and even these doctrines and examples are in this point against your selfe / which you hauehave alledged from other CHURCHES. But my purpose is not to contend about mens writings / nor to be drawen into controuersie with other Churches / when I am to deale with your present sinne / for the auoiding wherof you thus rage. If your cause be good / plead it by the Scriptures / and I wilbe so farre from casting out darts against al CHURCHES / as I wil not deale with their estate / till I be further occasioned / the rather may I omitt this labour / for that you hauehave alledged one place of scripture which you suppose wil beare vp all your matter: If yt helpe you not / I see not how you wil defend your assertion.

In the 15. of the Acts where it is said the Apostles / Elders / and brethren at Ierusalem met about the question of Circumcision and other Ceremonies of Moses lawe / which some would hauehave burdened the Gentiles with / we see there (saith he) that the Apostles themselves did decree some thing for the time / which afterward were to be altered when the occasion was taken away / namelie / that the Gentiles should absteyne from blood / and from strangled / for auoiding offence to the weak Iues. First let vsus see what the decree was / and then it will appeare how litle yt serueth Maister Giffard his purpose: these be the wordes. Act. 15.28.29. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vsus, to lay no more burden vponupon you then that which is necessary of these thinges, to absteyne from Idolothytes, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication; from which keeping your selues, yee doe well.

p. 61For one of these / which is (fornication) we hauehave here no question / it being by the moral lawe alwayes forbiden: For the other Maister Giffard would thus reason. The Apostles themselves did decree them for the tyme / therfore the Church hath power to make and ordeyne lawes in things of themselues indifferent / about the worship of God and publick exercises. For our answere / wee would hauehave Maister Giffard first learne / that he / in saying the Apostles themselves did this by the direction of the holy Ghost / hath ouerthrowen himselfe / for these were the Maister builders / apointed of God to be law makers for the whole Leitourgie and worship of Christ to all posterities / euen all the lawes and ordinances of the newe Testament / confirmed by miracles from heauen / deliuered by their ministery vntounto vsus: It will not follow then / if the APOSTLES had made and ordeyned some lawe here / that therefore euerie Synoode or anie Synode may impose lawes and commandements by themselves ordeyned / till they shew they hauehave that power giuen them the Apostles had / and an other Leitourgie to be made / which they shall neuer de able to doe / without a newe CHRIST: Wee hauehave a sure foundation alreadie laid / wherevpon all Synods and Counsells must build / and suffer their actions to be tryed therby / they hauehave not power to inioyne one title / which is not by the word of GOD inioyned vsus. Further / what did the Apostles here that they had not warrant for: neither would they lay anie yoke or burthen. And as for these thinges / they doe as much binde vsus nowe if ther be like cause / namelie / not in Idolothyts / blood / or that which is strangled to offend our weak brethren / if the Iues should be now againe called / neither to offend anie in meate or drinke for whome Christ hath dyed: Neither was ther here any absolute law made of these thinges / nor necessitye for the present tyme / furder then it should bee necessary for the respect set downe / for otherwise it had bene to build againe the thinges destroied / onlye they thus counselled and admonished the Gentiles to vse their libertye in these thinges / as they might gyve noe offence to theyr weake brethren of the Iues / the more to drawe them on in the wayes of CHRIST: for they doe not inioyne yt as a lawe / but tell them they shall doe well if they obserue these thinges / by no necessitye inforced. But wee doe not nowe observe these thinges / the occasions being remoued. True / therfore I trust you will grant / that no man shall bee furder bounde to anye constitution in such thinges indifferent / then there shall bee cause / neyther need wee publicke order to retract: so that you leaue the matter to me / that wee can bee no further bounde in such thinges / then by those rules of edifijng / order / comlines / occasion shall require / so that wee neither need nor can hauehave setled lawes herein: howe much more bondage and burden is imposed vnderunder this Antichristian yoke / the thinges being of themselves most lothsome and detestable Popery / abrogating and making voide all the true ordinances lawes and worship of CHRIST / p. 62and so inforced as whot persecution procedeth against anie that of conscience absteyne from them let it bee considered. Neither hath there euer bene detracting this thirtye yeares of anye your abhominations / neither is held lawefull for them that seeth them vnlawfull / to forbeare them / without deadlye hate / to bee followed to the death. Blessed bee our GOD / that hath deliuered our soules out of such Egiptian seruitude / our liues are not deare vntounto vsus / neither shall your reproch moue vsus.

Nowe concerning the last places of the Treatise / where hee is vtterlye mute in this / that all whiche stand vnderunder another Hierarchie or spirituall Regiment then CHRISTS / bee by outward profession no true Christians / or vnderunder the promise of salvation / also for the freedome wee professe in holye obedience to all statutes and ordinances off GOD / as hee hath left vntouched the matter / for which hee aledged the 7. to the Romanes / namelye / the outward professed bondage to a false Spirituall government / so I having before largely expressed my minde in that poinct of doctrine / and in such as then were about these thinges opposed / referre anye that desire the truth herein / to ponder the reasons and proofes there set downe / not minding to repeate againe / or to bee set aworke in vnfolding his troublesome and confuse cauills in abusing this place / or to make further replye / till I see more capeable conceypt in him of such principles of regeneration and sanctification / of freedome and bondage / yet for others direction / one cauil or two shalbe breifly set in veiwe.

First where hee supposing I had bene in error (and he himself fast fettered in heresie and seeth it not) chargeth mee to runne as farre on the other side / as a wheele turned with contrarye motions of the streame / for saying I helde the deare children of GOD might fall into any sinne / except the sinne against the holye GHOST / yet bee restored by repentance / GODS grace so far abounding / alwayes considered (as then I noted) that obstinacye in anye sinne / make them to vsus the servants of sinne whiles they so remayned / not speaking this to giuegive leaue or incouragement to presume in the least or first step of sinne / lest GOD leaue them to themselves / but to giuegive them hope if they returne that hauehave so fallen: hee excepteth generally against all presumptuous sinne / saying / of frailty Gods childrē may fall / but of presumption hee maketh great doubt / for anye so sinning to bee renued by repentance / for it is spokē of the Maranatha to bee pronounced in this life to none / but that bee in that sinne against the holye Ghost: and here to fill his paper (as his common shift is / when hee can neither affirme nor denye) hee putteth me to newe questions: You must (saith hee) declare howe filthye incest is / not sinne against the holye GHOST / nor if a man kill his Father or Mother or children / nor witchcraft / nor familiarity with Spirits / is not your meaning that the regenerate man may of presumption and obstinacy commit p. 63these? If Maister Giffard shoulde thus vnderstande the worde may hee is in the same fault to say the regenerate may sinne of frailty: And I answere furder / hee coulde vnderstand the worde may otherwise / if (as in all his writinges) hee caryed not this minde to take all in euil part / to quarrell / hee coulde have vnderstood it thus: that God suffereth of his elect to fall into such sinne / yet hee is able to reduce them by repentance / and hath made promise to receive them iff they retourne / and not hauehave cauilled in this maner in such thinges / the horrour in the verye naming of which sinnes shaketh the flesh and bones of the godlye to heare or behold: so that his drift is but to cast in a litle wormewood / to deface the truth deliuered: Therefore I will onlye prooue the generall doctrine before affirmed / and for these perticulars / let him that taketh pleasure in raking in them / being sinnes not once to bee named amongst GODS children / answere himself. And much better might hee have put his question thus. Whither wilfullye committing of sacriledge / and presumptuous continuing to enchant in a false ministery / with Iannes and Iambres resistinge the truth / persecutinge the light against their knowledge / bee not within the compasse of that sinne against the holye Ghost.

That GODS elect after regeneration doe fall into presumptuous sinne / and for a time persist in obstinate sinne / and may bee restored by repentance / I thus prooue: Manie of GODS children may bee excommunicat / and vponupon the repentance bee receiued againe / as the incestuous person 1. Cor. 5. therefore do for a time remayne in obstinate sinne. Againe euerie sinne is to bee prayed for / but that one sinne against the holye Ghost 1. Iohn. 5.16. Therfore presumptuous sinne is committed of GODS elect after regeneration. That all presumptuous sinne is not sinne against the holy GHOST / wee shall see by the discription of that sinne Hebr. 6. and 10. where there is dispyting of the Spirit / accompting the blood of IESUS an vnholy thinge / persecuting the light they hauehave sometimes tasted of / and such like notes / which are degrees. further then presumption: for there is presumption of ignorance / of rashnes / of hope of mercy / and many times do the Prophets charge the people with rebellion against GOD: so that all presumption cannot have the curse maranatha pronounced vponupon it / or the persons not to bee prayed for. But sure I grant / that presumption is neere to that sinne / and there cannot bee that high sinue without presumption. But now if all sinne but sinne of frayltie were vnpardonable / your Clergie were in a wofull case / that thus maynely resist the truth / and persecute GODS servants.

Neither is this doctrine anye way contrarie to that I delyvered / p. 64namelye / that the regenerat man cannot bee said to stande in bondage to sinne after regeneration / and the servant of GOD at the same time by outwarde profession / for none are in bondage to sinne after their calling to the faith / (to our iudgment) but suche as contynue obstinate in their open knowne sinne after due admonition: that such stande not by outwarde profession the servants off CHRIST but of sinne / and are to bee excommunicate / hee willingly granteth: and herevpon merueileth how I shoulde gather / that obstinat grosse sinners shoulde not bee excommunicat: which hee might playnlye perceiue if hee had eyes / for if al the regenerat bee in bondage to sinne / and so the servants of sinne and of Sathan / howe should they cast out an other for bondage out of their fellowship by the power of CHRIST? If Maister Giffard say / because the obstinate is in greater bondage then the other / this proueth not that the bond can cast out the bond by the power of Christ.

Againe / if all bee in bondage / then none can bee houlden without for being in bondage to sinne: so that none shoulde be excommunicat / none without / the worlde and the CHURCH / light and darknes / CHRIST and BELIALL should bee mingled together.

To all which hee hath made no answere / but demandeth certeine questions / and maketh such a formall conclusion / as if all were in bondage vntounto sinne. His questions I grant all affirmantiuely / yet denye his consequence. Let him plainely proue therfore by euidence of SCRIPTURE / that all that do sinne are bondslaues of sinne / and when hee hath so done / I shall therevpon conclude him a flat Anabaptist in the cheif ground of their profession. Verye gladlye therefore woulde hee leave out the worde (bondage) / and falslye accuseth and sclandereth mee / in saying I holde that men can not outwardly appeare sinners / and stand the servants of CHRIST both at a time / which is an open vntruth: Yt is hee / that cannot put difference betwene sinning / and bondage vntounto sinne / so that in one worde all his questions are answered: If anie bee in bondage to sinne / hee standeth a seruant thereof.

Now for the 7. to the Romanes / the APOSTLE setting forth the strift betwene the flesh and the Spirit / speaketh somtimes in the person of the one (if I may so speake) and somtimes of the other / somtimes of the newe man or regenerat part / or of himself so far as hee is regenerat: somtimes of the olde man / which is not wholly slayne / but ful of rebellion striueth for maisterie. Nowe I must demand of him / whether of these two hauehave the preheminence / dominion and rule in the regenerat / the graces of the Spirit / or the rebellions of the flesh? The same APOSTLE saith the SPIRIT / and that part off the man renewed there with / p. 65which wee call the inner man: In the 8. Cap. he maketh it playne / The lawe of the spirit of life in CHRIST hath freed mee from the lawe of sinne and of death. What is the lawe of the Spirit but the powre / rule / and dominion of the Spirit of GOD in vsus? And what is the lawe of sinne / but the powre of sinne / and bondage / wherewith wee were somtimes led headlong by Sathan at his pleasure / but are nowe freed / that it no more doth reigne or beare rule in vsus vntounto condemnation. Againe / whosoeuer are ledd by the Spirit of GOD / are the sonnes of God / and in the 7. Cap. 4. and 6. Cap. 16. Knowe you not that to whome you exhibit your selves servants vntounto obedience, his servants you are to whome you giuegive your selves obedient? David feeling the great assaultes of sinne in his flesh / and his inhabilitie to keepe the Lawe of GOD / earnestlye prayeth vntounto the Lorde Direct my steppes in thy worde (saith hee) and let none iniquitie hauehave dominion, over mee. After the stronge man is cast out / CHRIST beareth the rule over vsus and in vsus / by his Spirit. So the scripture euerye where pronounceth vsus Saincts by calling / Kinges / and Priestes / a people set free / not that wee sinne not in thought word and deede howrely and daylie / but that sinne hath not dominion ouer vsus: If then wee were in bondage to sinne / wee are the servantes of sinne and of death / which GOD forbid.

Where Maister Giffard therfore reasoneth thus: the regeneration is imperfect / therefore the freedome is imperfect / therefore there is some bondage / yt is blasphemie: For first our freedome is perfect in CHRIST / ells his death is not sufficient. Then though our sanctification bee not perfect / yet is there no bondage / but a rebellion of sinne: which if yt shoulde reigne / wee were not the servantes of CHRIST: And while it seemeth for a time to reigne / and wee obstinatly to cleaue vntounto yt / wee are iudged (soe far as men can iudge) the servantes of yt / and so gyuen ouer from / CHRIST vntounto Satan / till the grace of the Spirit againe to our iudgement appeare to beare rule.

As for David in the whole yeare after hee had commytted adulterye and murther / hee never pleaded for his sinne when hee was reproued not did no longer cleaue vntounto yt. Soe likewise though wee fall and sinne / and bee ledd awaye with sinne / yet are wee not in bondage therevnto / vntil wee obstinatly and wilfully give our selues vntounto yt from CHRIST / which you finde not in the 7. to the Roman. but resisting of sinne / a hatred of sinne / a will to doe good / a repentance and contynuall recouerye of himself / and flying vntounto Christ. Soe that your doctrine is false / to saye / the Apostle stoode in some spirituall bondage / and my Argument still firme / that these Ministers and people which stande in a professed bondage to a false governmēt / their praiers p. 66are an abhomination vntounto the Lorde / till they repent and submit themselues vntounto CHRIST and his lawes and ordinances. Whiche the Lorde gyue them grace to doe / euen speedely to depart out of the house of bondage / and from all subiection of his Antichristian Hierarchie.

Christs vnvvorthie vvitnes for the truth of his Gospell IOHN GREENVVOOD.

FINIS.

End of the text · John Greenwood, Answer to Giffords Defense of Read Prayers (1590)