Answer to Giffords Defense of Read Prayers, Argument
A generall Argument against their vvorship, in respect of their present estate, both of Ministers and people.
The praiers of such ministers & people, as stand vnderunder a false gouernmēt are not acceptable, not only because they aske amisse, but because they keepe not his Commaundements:
The praiers of such ministers & people as be subiect to Antichrist are abhominable:
Those ministers & people vvhichwhich stand subiect to the Bishops and their Courts, are subiect to Antichrist &c. Therfore their praiers &c.
G. Gifford.
These do oncerne the third & fourth accusatiō, and therfore the answere is included in the ansvvere to them, Yet I take exception against the first, that the Church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundemens touching externall gouernement, and yet be the true Church of Grd, I alleadged the Church that was holden captiue in Babylon &c.
I. Greenvvood.
HEre / after your acustomed maner / you offer me great wronge: first / insteade of answere / you alter the question very subtylie: then you dismember my former answere / and not only so / but you hauehave nether let my former āswere be āswered / nor prynted. Thus you alter the questiō / and answere not / where the Propositiō speaketh of a ministerie ād people standing vnderunder a false gouernmēt / you say the Church may be holdē vp force / from executing Gods commaundements in externall gouernment / wherof I never doubted: what is this then / but to deceaue your Reader / both to iudge sinisterlie of me / and be drawen from the truth himself? But indeede you meane not this (holden by force) of ciuile bondadge or persequution / for then ther were no difference betweene vsus / ād myne Argument should stand vntouched. You affirme then that the Church may stand vnderunder a false gouernement / inforced therunto by the tyranny of the ennemie / and yet in that estate be the true apparant Church / by open profession / which is nothing / els / then that the Church may professe Christianisme and Antichristianisme / both at a tyme / subiect in minde to Christ / and subiect to Antichrist in outwarde obediēce. That you hold this doctrine in this place / the processe of your matter proueth / and to make all plaine / your wordes in the last writing (which here you summe vp) were these. But if the Church at any tyme be by mayne force restrayned from some priuiledges, or hauehave some gouernement set ouer it, which agreeth not with GODS worde, which it cannot auoide &c. See nowe how smoothly this man hath put away the crosse of Christ / by teaching men to stand vnderunder a gouernement / contrarye to Christes. I thought the ordinances of the newe Testament had beene a kingdome that could not be shaken. Heb.: 2.28. that none could hauehave beene a mēber of Christ / Rev. 14.9 10.11.1…that receaueth the marcke of the Beast / though yt be but in his hand / or could be holden a member of Christ / by outward profession / that here had beene the patience of the Saincts / to suffer vntounto death / rather then to bowe downe / either in minde or bodie to an other gouernment / then Christs. How is he a Lorde to them that are not gouerned by him? Well I needed not hauehave stand vponupon this doctrine / but that he nether prynted my former answere / nor answered in these pointes / and myne owne copie taken from me by the Bishops: so that this man may retract what he will and accuse as please him: if he hauehave anie common honestie / let my former answere be seene.
But to proue the Church may be subiect to an other gouernement then Christs / which is euen to say / that a man may gyue all alleageance by outward practize to the Kinge of Spaigne / and yet be her Ma… ▪ true subiect / He saith / the Church was holden captiue in Babilon / where he as conningly hideth himself as before / though in my last writing I vrged him to answere / whether the Church in Babilō was subiect to their Idolatrie / or no. To the ciuile power I doubt not they were: But if the Priestes and Leuites stood Priests to the Idolatrous worship in Babilon / whether the people of Israel bowed downe to the outward practise and obedience of their Idolatrie / or no: then / if they did so / whether they stoode by profession the childrē of God / or apostatate in that estate None of these thinges hauehave you answeared me. Let the exāples of Hanania / Mishaell / and Azarin testifie Dan. 3. The people that retourned repented their transgressions / wher they had any of them sinned / and made a new couenant with the Lorde / before they were receaued / Ezra 9.14.15. and 10. Cap. 2.3.8. Yea the voyce of God was this / come out of her my people / ād touche no vncleane thing and I wilbe your God. We are before thee (saith Ezra) in our trespasse / and we cannot stand before thee because of it.Esa 52.11 Jerem 51.6.45. You never renounced your Antichristian ministerie / you neuer made newe couenant since the deepe defectiō of Poperye / but still minister in that kingdome / and wil not repent / yet boast your selves to be the Church of God / cryinge out / the Temple the Temple. I answeare then directlie / that whiles you stād subiect vntounto / and practize ād communicate with other orders and gouernments / then Christes / you are not by outwarde professiō the Churches of Christ. I may not with you omitt the worde (willfull) because you persequute the light / and so much higher is your sinne. Here I must forewarne the Reader / with diligēce to consider Mr. Giffords disagreement and mine / he hauing accused me of a fundamētall heresie (as he calleth it) wheras he himself still maintayneth most grosse errors / wher of I reproued him / yet he persisteth / Namely / that the regenerate man may be said to stand in bondage to sinne / by reason of the corruption of the fleshe that is in vsus / ād of our vnperfectnes in this life. Then / that one standing in outwarde bondage to opē knowē sinne / may in that estate be accompted and cōmunicated with / as the seruāt of Christ by outward profession / both at one instant: which is asmuch to say / we may be to mās sight / the seruaunt of the deuill / and the seruaunt of Christ / both at one tyme / by outward profession: so none should be excōmunicate: none be without / te world ād the church light and darcknes / Christ and Belial / should be mingled togeather.
The heresie wherof / he most vniustly and vntruly proclaymeth to be mainteyned by vsus / is / that the regenerate man consenteth not to sinne / after regeneration / although in the last writinge I testified the cōtrary: Namely that the whole church might erre / might cōmitt some kinde of Idolatrie / that no mā was free from cōmitting sinne etc. And now I testifie to all the world / that I was neuer infected with anie such Anabaptistry, but hauehave euerie where resisted such dannable heresie. I hauehave learned and taught manie degrees of sinne / and differēces of trāsgressions / which the deare children of God fall into / after regeneration / in thought word and deed / of ignorance / of knowledge / of presumptiō / slippes / transgressions / and obstinate sinne: Yea that ther is no sinne / except ehe sinne against the Holy Ghost / but Gods childrē / may cōmitt it after regeneration / and be renued by repentance / which we ought to pray for in all sinners / but that one sinne except. Not that men should herevpon take boldnes to sinne / because God giueth repētance to his elect / wherin the riches of his mercy appeareth / but rather serue him in trembling and feare / as a iealous God / least with Esaw we find no place to repentance / though we seeke yt with teares. Againe / though in Gods sight / his elected are neuer forsakē vtterlie / nor the Holy Ghost vtterly extinguished in the repenerate / yet to mans iudgment he that cōmitteth opē knowē sinne / and persisteth obstinatly in the same / cannot be held the child of God to vsus / by outward profession / but must be cutt of Nombers 15.27.31. Math. 18.17. and 1. Cor. 5. till they repent: Much more none that stād opē professed mēbers of te false church / subiect by the least outward bowing downe to this antichristiā Hierarchie, ād so cōtinuing in bō dage to a false gouernmēt / cā be holdē of vsus te true professors of Christs Gospel. Now let vsus peruse te seueral doctrines. Mr. Gifford affirmeth / that the true church migt stād in bōdage to a false gouernmēt / yet in that estate be helde / and cōmunicated with / as the true Church / by outward profession: his wordes in waye of proof / be these. They may with St. Paule say / it is no longer I that do it / but sinne that dwelleth in me: for if the yoake wherwith he was held captiue in part / could not take from him / but that he was the Lordes free seruaunt / it is no reasō that some outwarde bondage should make the Church not to be the spouse of Christ. If a man commaund his wife (saith he) to do a thinge / and ther be violent force to withhold her / shee is not to be blamed. Rom. 7. Mine answere to this he durst not print / but peruerteth my wordes / so manie as pleaseth him / nether can I yet come by a copie of my former writing to shew / what I thē replyed. Now consider what gouernmnet is / and what bondage is / and then behold the wickednes of this man: Spirituall gouernmet is that souereigntie / Dominion: and regiment that Christ Iesus / by his spirit / lawes / ordināces / and officers / exerciseth in ād ouer hys church / as yt is writtē: And thou Bethleē Iuda art not the least among the Princes of Iuda, for out of thee shall come a gouernour that shall gouerne my people Israell. againe / thy Scepter is an uer lasting Scepter. I hauehave set my king vponupon Syon my Holy mountaine, Mat. 2.6. Psa. 2. and 45. and 110. these lawes ād ordināces wherby this kinge raigneth / are caled a kingdome that cānot be shakē Heb. 12.28.Mal 12.6 they that hauehave not him to reigne ouer thē / are by outward professiō none of his. If I be your lord, where is my honor? againe those myne enimies which would not that I should reigne ouer thē, bring bether, and slay thē before me. Luke 19.27 Also bondage or seruitude is to be al commaundement / and to yeild obedience in subiection. Now to be in outward bondage to an other outward government / other lawes / officers / and ordinances then Christs / is to be by outward subiection servantes of Antichrist / which layeth an other foundation: for by outward profession we cannot stand (to mans iudgment) professed subiects to two kings at enimitye / But we must be an enimie to the one / and so esteemed of all mē / much lesse members vntounto two divers heades.
This then is mine answere here. 1. That it is an heresie to say a man may stand in bondage to open knowen sinne / and the free seruaunt of Christ to vsus by outward profession / both at one instant. 2. That it is a falsifying of the Scripture / to say that St. Paul (in the 7. to the Romanes) was in bondage to sinne / when he / in the inner man resisted sinne / and daylie preuailed against the sinne / which his flesh would hauehave led him captiue in / if there had not beene a stronger power to ouercome that enimie. For he ther reasoneth of the benefite of the lawe / to manifest our sinne / and our conquest ouer sinne by daylie repentance / and reprouing of sinne in our selues / fighting against sinne / victory ouer sinne / thoughe yt contynuallie rebell. 3. How blasphemous were yt to contynue in knowen sinne / in bondage to yt / and to say / it is sinne that dwelleth in vsus / and not we / and so still to blesse our selves without amendement. O horrible peruertinge of the Scriptures to mens destruction. 2. Pet. 3.16.4. That ther is no Argument to be drawen / nor consequence to followe / from the reliques of sinne / and corruption of the fleshe in one man / or the whole Church / and a professed bondage to al false government: no not betweene the open committing of sinne in the whole Church / or some m…mbers therof / and a professed homage and subiection vntounto a false gouernment / we cannot be partakers with the false Church and true / at no hand. 1. Cor. 10.21 / 5. Lastlie / that the subiection to an other gouernement / is as a wife that committeth adulterie. Hosea 2.
I then reason thus on the contrary with you. Any man that after regeneration committeth open knowen sinne / and contynueth obstinate / as a bond seruaunt thervnto / standeth not the professed seruaunt of Christ / but of synne Ezechiel. 18. till he repent / so the whole Church / that persisteth in open knowen sinne / and persequuieth the messengers that reproue the same. Then / as euerie member of the false Church standeth a professed seruaunt of sinne / so the whole assemblies that stand professed subiects of false gouernment / no censures sf admonition belonging vntounto them / but calling of them to repentance and seperation from the false Church. Then / as the wife that geueth her self to be one with an other man / is an adulteresse Rom. 7.3. so that Church that subiecteth herself to an other gouernment / ordinances / and lawes then Christs / is an harlot. Now lett all men say / whether I had not iust cause to say / you spake like a carnall libertine / and an Athiest▪ yea nowe / as one having his conscience …eared / to affirme / that the Church / remayninge in open knowe bondage to a false gouernment / may saye as Paul said / it is not I that sinne. And / that contynuing in that adulterie / she is the spouse of Christ by outward profession. You would saye it were a false Argument / to say / the Church hath manie imperfections / ignorances / transgressions etc. therfore standeth in bondage to sinne / nay standeth in bondage to an other heade / and an other government then Christs / Euen so / to saye the Church doth sinne / therfore may contynue in bondage to sinne / is false doctrine: nay / to say it may stand in open professed subiection to Antichrist / and be esteemed the CHURCH of CHRIST by outward profession in that estate / is damnable doctrine.
It is the flat contradiction of all the rules of the Scripture / to say / a man may stand in bondage to sinne / and the free servaunt… of Christ by outward profession / by mans iudgment / at one tyme / seing the obstinate offenders are to be cast out of the assemblie: But nowe / though the regenerate may fall into these highe sinnes / and contynue in their sinne a long time / yea manie yeares depriued of GODS grace / to mans seeming / and to vsus is the seruant of Satan for anie thing wee see / yet the Spirit of GOD is never vtterlie extinguished or departed / after regeneration / but will recouer the man againe / and bring him to repentance / as David after a whole yeare / for the stronge man once displaced and cast out by a stronger then he / the spirit neuer vtterly departeth againe / for then yt were impossible that mā should be renewed Mat. 1.2.31. Heb. 10.26 and 6.4.
And herevpon I might saye / Paul never contynued captiue in sinne / but was alwaies renewed by repentance. Furder / this spirit of God (the sparkes wherof were never quenched vtterlie) did not / nor could not consent or giuegive place vntounto sinne / for here is the enimitye and battel betweene the spirite and the flesh / euerie where spoken of Gal. 5,16.17. Rom. 7. May I not now say then / that Paul never contynued captiue vntounto sinne / nor consented vntounto sin concerninge the Inner man or gave place vntounto sinne in that place mentioned / without heresie: And still reproue you / that when Paul reasoneth of the old man / or corruption in him / you will conclude yt of the new man / or inner man / and of the whole man / when you see euidently / he opposeth the one against the other: For whiles the spirit striueth against sinne / and raigneth in vsus / thoughe the fleshe rebell / and cause vsus to sinne seauen times a daye / yet are we not ouercome of sinne / so to remayne in bondage to sinne / that it should contynue to reigne in vsus / as you may see in the same chapter Rom. 7.5.6. Where you alleage then / that Paul saw a lawe in his members / which did lead him captiue vntounto sinne / you do falsifie the text: for he saith leading me captiue / and not did leade etc. for ther was a stronger man / or a stronger then man / that suffered not the lawe of his members to reigne: for saith he / I my self in my minde serue the law of God / but in the flesh the law of sinne / so that the whole man could not be said to serue sinne. But (say you) afterward as concerning then the inner man we may be said to serue the lawe of God / and thervpon be called the free seruantes of Christ / notwithstanding this corruption of sinne in the flesh: So the whole man by reasō of our imperfectnes may be said to be the servants of sinne. No / yt is not true / for the whole man is called after the part thath hat greather rule in vsus: as if the fleshe rule in vsus / we are the servaunts of sinne / and ledd by Satan at his pleasure / but if the Spirit rule in vsus / we are the seruauntes of God / Sonnes of God / Sainctes of God / Citizens of Ierusalem / holie and free people / Kinges / and Priests: not that we are perfect / or sinne not / but that sinne reygneth not in vsus / but the spirit / wherby we suppresse sinne / reprove sinne / striue against sinne / subdue sinne / and though we fall seuen times / yet we rise againe by repentance / and serue not sinne. Rightly therfore did I saye / that no man can serve two masters: for his servantes we are to whom we gyue … our selues as seruants to obey / whether yt be of sinne / vntounto death / or of obedience / vntounto righteousnes. Rom. 6.16.18. being made free from sinne / we are made the servantes of righteousnes: So that the regenerat man / or he that is by outward profession the servant of Christ / cannot be called the servant of sinne / by reason of the co…uption of the old man / and dregges of sinne / neither can he that standeth in bōdage to anie sinne / and giueth himself ouer to yt / be called in that estate the servant of Christ / till he repent / but the servant of sinne. 2. Pet. 2.19.
Therfore you must recant your false interpretation of Paul in the 7. to the Rom. and cease your blasphemous raylings / in calling the trueth of God / the rocke of Brownisme. And consider the height of your sinne / by concluding a bondage vntounto sinne of the wholeman / for the corruptions of the fleshe / which through the worke of the Spirit is daylie subdued / though never vtterly rooted out of our earthlie members: and from the committing sinne through frayltie / an obstinate professed bondage to the false Church / false gouernment / false ministerie etc. which is plainly the marck of the Beast / to whom with outward obedience they bowe downe / and stand servants in his kingdome Revel. 14.9.11.12.
As for the 4. of the Galat. 26. where the Apostle saith / Ierusalem which is aboue is free with her Children / yo udurst not open yt / nor expound yt / but blaspheame / raile / and sclander / as though we should pleade for such a freedome / as should detract from Magistrates lawfull aucthorities / from having Gods ordinances established by commaundement vponupon the Church etc. yea / that we should hold Anabaptisticall freedome / as though we had power not to committ / or consent vntounto sinne wheras we hauehave euerie where by practise and protestation / by word and writing testified to our Souereigne Prince / and to all men / the contrary. But Satan that old accuser and detracter of Gods children / to deceaue the world / sendeth out such lyinge spirites to deface the trueth. We / with all subiection and willinge obedience to our souereigne. Prince / teach all men their obedience to the higher powers: Subiectes to Magistrates / Flocke to Ouerseers / children to Parētes / wines to their husbands / servantes to their Masters etc. in all things in the Lorde: and if they commaund vsus anie thing contrary to the lawe of God / we then patientlie suffer without resistance / or rebellious thaughtes: The freedome then we hauehave to speake of here / which Christ hath purchased for vsus / is / first that triumphe ouer Hell / Deathe / ād damnatiō / through the merites of Christ apprehended by faith / wayted for in hope / Rom. 8. Secondly / that because we were sonnes by election / he giueth vsus the spirit of adoption / and sanctification / wherebie we mortifie the fleshe / have reigne and dominion ouer sinne / that yt shall never reigne in vsus more vntounto condemnation / repenting daylie our trespasses / and crauing pardon for our hidden sinnes / and secret faultes. Thirdly / we are throughe the same spirit and worde of trueth deliuered from all subiection of Antichist / of the false Church / false ministerie / false gouernment etc. And. they that hauehave not this freedome / are not by outward profession the seruauntes of Christ. Furder / we hauehave freedome from all traditions of men that seing we are bought with a pryce / we are no longer seruants of men / to be in bondage to anie beggerly rudimentes or devises of mē / but in all peaceable maner / to worship and serve God within the limites of our callings / according to the word of God / as yt is reuealed vntounto vsus: We hauehave freedome to speake the trueth with all boldnes / though all men should inhibite vsus: we would not hauehave the doctrine limited / stinted / bought and sold / for Iewishe tythes or mercenarie stipendes.
We have freedome to seperate from such false▪ Prophetts as your self / to come out of Babel etc. And in the true Church to reproue and withstand anie sinne or traditions of mē in due order / only to be guided and gouerned by Christes lawes and ordināces: In all this I trust you shall not find anie Anabaptistrie in the freedome we professe: this is the truth of the Gospell / wherbie we are made free.
Thus then we still affirme / that they which stand in open knowen bondage to sinne / are the seruants of sinne / and not of CHRIST / till they repent / by outward profession. Furder / that allwhich stand members of your parish assemblies / stand not members of CHRIST by outward profession / but in bondage to a false and Antichristian ministery / gouernment / worship etc. and the bond woeman and her sonne must be cast out. Furder / for all liturgies, and other devises of mē besides the canonicall Scriptures and liuely graces of his Spirit / we hold they ought not to be brought into the publique assemblies / nor imposed vponupon mens consciences: But if anie will write such / or reade such / let yt be for their private vse / as all other mens writings: we despise not any directions by word or writing / that may furder vsus anie way to the practize of GODS ordinances / yet may they nether be imposed vponupon mens consciences / not be made a part of GODS worship.
The Lorde therfore that hath thus far fourth discouered the …haff and mist of Antichrists delusions / euen to babes and sucklings / publish the glorious light of his blessed Gospell / that the people may see the counterfeit iuglinges of all such false Prophetts / and come out from amongst them / that you may be ashamed of your execrable wares / and forsake your Romish Priesthoode / and gyue glory to God / that yet offereth grace. Amen.
Christs vnvvorthie vvitnes for the truth of his Gospell IOHN GREENVVOOD.
FINIS.