Answer to Giffords Defense of Read Prayers, Arguments
The fourth Argument.
Because true prayer must be of faith, vttered with heart & liuely voi…: It is presumptious ignorance to bring a booke to speake for vsus vntounto God &c.
The fift Argument.
To worship the true God afther an other maner then he hath taught, is Idolatrie. But he Commaundeth vsus to come vntounto him, heavie loaden vvith contrite heartes, to cry unto him for our vvantes &c.
Therfore we may not stand reading a dead letter, instead of powring fourth our petitions.
The Sjxt Argument.
We must striue in praier with continuance &c. But we cannot striue in praier & be importunate with continuance, reading vponupon a booke Therfore we must not reade when we should pray.
G. Gifford.
These 3. I ioyned togeather as hauing no weight, you say I answeare by plaine contradiction without Scripture &c. And afterwardes, is not my bare deniall as good as your bare affirmation: &c.
I. Greenvvood.
STay your selues and wonder / they are blind and make blind. Is ther anie doctrine more spirituall / anie more inculcated by the Holy Ghost / then this accesse vntounto God in the mediation of … owne spirit / to make our mindes knowne vntounto God / to offer vp the … owne spirit in vsus / and fetch encrease from him by this … true … with the heart and voi…e? This colioquie with the highe …iestie of God is it a m…rter of no weight to learne to discerne betweene … exercises of the spirit / and to exercise his graces aright according to …? Rightly is it …aid / the wisedome of God is foolishnes to the naturall man. But Mr. GIFFORD wil say he graunteth the propositiōs true and weightie matters … is the Assumptions that be so friuolous / and as he saith a litle after / ridiculous: wel / let them be weyed. 1. That reading instead of praying is not a powringh fourt of the heart by liuely voyce. 2. That it is a quenching of the spirit / to reade an other mans wordes vponupon a booke / in the very action of powring fourth our heart as we pretend. 3. That yt is not an vn…ordening of a contrite heart by faith / but an ignorant action to reade for praying. 4. That we cannot s…riue in prayer / continue in prayer / be importunate etc, by reading vponupon a …oo…e. These are the … he t…incketh of so litle weight: the bare deniall and contradiction wherof he holdeth of such credit / that it must suffice for answeere / seing he sait he hath before proued the vse of reading. See here he calleth yt the vse of reading: he could not say that reading is praying / neth…r that these twoo exercises of our Faith can be vsed both in one instant / as one action. I hauehave sheweed that pro…che and an… gnosis / praying / and reading / are divers actiōs both of the minde and body let the reader consider what weight then this matter is of / to talk with the lyuing God.
But for the benefit of such as hauehave grace to sauour the things that are of God / I will a litle illustrate these Assumptions / at least some of them. 1. That yt is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vponupon a booke when I should powre fourth mine owne heart / the word yt self must be considered / the Apostle commaundeth saying 1. Thessalonians 5.19. extinguish ye not the spirit. Now to suppresse and leaue vnvttered the passiōs of our owne heart by the worke of the spirit / giuing vsus cause of prayer / and instead therof to reade an other mās writing / I doubt not wilbe founde and judged of all that hauehave spirituall eyes to see / a quenching of that grace yea in that action / the reading hindreth vsus from pleading our cause with God / according to the occasions we see in our owne hearts. And by not teaching men to drawe out the graces of God in thē / to offer vp the sweete incense of his owne spirit in prayer / but an other course deuised by fleshly pollicye / the people growe in such Atheisme / that they learne not all the dayes of their life to lay open their owne soule before the Lord in prayer. How much more then / by imposing stinted wordes to be read in the whole assemblies insteade of the liuely graces / making yt a sufficient ministerie to reade ouer such beggarlie ware / do you abondon Gods spirituall giftes / and make an assemblie of Atheists in most places of this land / yea in the best assemblies you compell such ware to be read / when and where the liuely voyces of Gods present graces should only he drawē fourth as an holie odour vntounto the Lorde. Yea I appeale to the consciē ces of all that feare God / if this hauehave not brought the land generally into Atheisme / that not one amongst an hundred can call vponupon God.
2. That it is an ignorance to presume to come into so neere a conversing with God / and to do one action for an other / so offring the sacrifice of fooles / let yt be sufficient proof that reading is not praying. That yt is presumptuous / to bring such lame sacrifices when you know to do better / let yt be considered whether you would so vncircumspectly / and carelesly approche to the presence of the Prince or any noble personage. Then if he be our Lorde / where is his honour / his feare etc. when we will teach men and compell mē to do they knowe not what in his sight / and to offer such lame sacrifice. The Priestes themselues care not what offring they bring him / Malach. 1.
Thirdly the reading praier can be at no hand a striuing in praier / for the worde agoniso which is read Rom. 15.30. signifieth to contēd in feruency both in minde and worde / to preuaile with God as Iaakob wrestled with the Angell / and said / I will not let thee go except thou blesse me. Genes. 32.24.25.26. such s…rift you shall see through out the Psalmes in th… prayers of David and the Prophets / alas / howe this should be performed eyther in feruencie or contynuance / let the wise consider.
4. For importunacy and contynuāce in prayer / wherof we hauehave many precepts / let the worde be looked vponupon / which is proscart…reo to insist by perseverance etc. as we see our Souiour Christ make plaine vntounto vsus by a parable Luke 11.5▪6.7.8. …nd Luke 18.1.2.3.5.7. now shall not God auendge his elect which crye night and day? Experience we see in Moses / who when he lifted vp his handes to heauen the Israelites so long preuayled: Exod. 17. You can not make your read prayers serve in this vse with all your divises. For how would you effect this / except to make the Priest reade till he sweat againe / with vaine repetitiō / and the people that vse such stinted praiers to say thē oftē ouer / as the Papists their fifteene Aue marias and fiue Pater nosters as a cure of al their grieves. By this litle I have spokē / yt may appeare (though the Lorde knowes I am a mā of vncircumcised lippes / neither able to vtter that God giveth me by faith to see in these high thinges / neither yet cōprehending anie title of the exce…llcy of the) yet I hope yt shal appeare to Gods children / how odious your marchandize is in Gods eyes / and howe you make the ordināces of God of true praier / of none effect / by your traditiōs he only approuing the liuely graces of his owne ministerie / and such as hauehave giftes and are caled thervnto / to be his mouth vntounto the people ād the peoples mouth vntounto him in the publique assēblies: you inuent a newe worship and extinguish his / which maketh mē fall into dissolutenes and bloudie tyrannie against his Sainctes.
And where I alleadged that Paul would pray with the spirit and vnderstanding / and therfore not vp on a booke / you answere that Paul had no such neede of a booke as other men hauehave. But if you had looked vpō the text better / you should see / that the Apostle in his owne person teacheth what ought to be donne in all Churches and of all men / And that he there taketh away the abuse of spirituall giftes 1 Corin. 14.15. and in the same Chapter sheweth that this and all other his doctrines are cō maundements of God. vers. 37. nowe either God prescribeth two wayes to pray / or els your reading for praying is a devise of mā. But your self have confessed there is no commaundement to reade praier for praying. Yet here you cauill with your stale shift / that Paul taught others to singe Psalmes vponupon a booke / which is a meere euasion / seing singing is not praying. The same Apostle saith to all that are borne of God / because we are sonnes God hath sent fourth into our heartes the spirit of his sonne which cryeth Abba Father. So that althoug we hauehave not like measure of grace / yet if we cannot pray we hauehave not the spirit of God / Gal. 4.6
I alleadged as you say a reason here why praier read cannot be true praier. In readi…g we fetch the matter from the booke which moueth the heart / In true prayer we fetch the matter frō the heart which causeth the mouth to speake. Your answere is / that this is a most ridiculous vanitie / for tell me (say you) this / when we bring fourth in true praier matter from the heart which causeth the mouth to speake / hath not the heart bene first moued with the worde of faith / etc?
Let men here witnesse with me / what cause I had to esteeme you as a shorner / Againe / how emptie you are of anie spiritual sauour. And here you hauehave no answere to giuegive / but aske me certaine questions: First whether when we bring fourth in true prayer / etc. the heart hath not beene first instructed. To this I answere / that againe you confesse the reading prayer vponupon a booke is not praying / but an instruction of the heart to praye. If you would stand to this / we should not neede hauehave so much labour / and all the places of Scripture which you hauehave alleadged for to proue reading praying / hauehave beene meerly wrested by you to deceaue the simple. Wel (say you) but if the heart be first instructed before yt can vtter matter in prayer / whie may not the heart againe be moued with hearing or reading the worde / and so vtter prayer. Yes I graunt / and still you graunt me / that reading is not praying but moueth to prayer: Then all your assemblies that hauehave no prayer but reading praiers / hauehave no prayer at all / ād all that vse read praier for praying do not praye but mocke with God. See if your Ordinarie will here be pleased with you: Yet you would denie all this with the same breath by a shifte / saying: The heart is moued whē one heareth the prayer of the minister and presently sendeth fourth prayers togeather with him. I trust you will not say that the heart of the hearer prayeth one thing / and the Minister an other / againe the prayer of the minister is the prayer of the people / by Gods ordinance / whiles they thinck one thinge / and are mett to one end / for auoyding confusion one speaketh / yet al pray togeather one thing. But the minister may as well preach and pray / or reade anie chapter and praye / as reade praiers / and praye both in one action of the minde / and voyce / which were strange. Your cauill then / whether the heart may be moved / and pray / both at once / is taken awaye / seing you graunt reading and praying / two seuerall excercises of the heart and voyce / which cannot be performed at once with liuely voyce. The conclusion is then / that either ye must fetch the matter out of your booke whē you reade prayer / and so do not pray for the particular wāts wher with the heart is moued and pressed before you come / or els you pray not with liuely voyce at al / when you read. The Lorde then hauing taught vsus to breake vp our owne hearts / and powre fourth our owne petitions with heart and voyce / gyve grace to all his people so to worship him.
We must pray as necessitie requireth.7. Argu. But stinted prayers cannot be as necessity requireth. therfore stinted prayer is vnlawfull.
To this I answered, approuing the Proposition. And in the Assumption I did distinguish of matters to be prayed for:G. Gifford. as that there be thinges necessarie to be praied for at all tymes. and of all men: of these a prescript forme may be vsed at all meetings of the Church. there be matters not at all tymes needfull to be praied for, for such there can be no prescript forme to be vsed contynually. &c.
I HaueHave proved in the first Argument / that no mens writings areI. Greenwood. to be brought into the publique assemblies / for there the liuely graces of Gods owne spirit and Cononicall Scriptures only must be heard: In the Seconde / the vnlawfullnes of reading for praying / In the third / the vnlawfullnes to impose any thing by cōmaundemēt / that God hath not cōmaunded. And here we shall handle in few wordes the end of your stinted prayers. Your distinction is far differing from the wisedome of the spirit / for though many thinges be at all tymes needful to the publique assemblies / yet stand not the assemblies either al at any tyme / or anie at all tymes in the same neede and feeling of them / or fitnes to receaue them / so that except you can make all assemblies in the same want of such thinges as are alwaies needfull / or any at al tymes / in the same preparednes to aske / and vse thē that be needfull / you cā make no stinted prayers for them. GiueGive …are then to the Scripture in this pointe 1. Corinth. 2.11.Ia. 4.14 For what man knoweth the thinges of a man, if not the spirit of mā which is in himself, &c. Agayne, who knoweth what (shalbe) to morow? Whiles you then thought to hauehave founde out more then the only wise gouernour of his house sawe needfull for his worship in his Church / and of euerie soule / you hauehave lifted vp your self into his seate / and taken the office of his spirite vponupon you / who searcheth the heartes and knoweth the reynes / and teacheth his people how and when to aske / according to his will and eheir needs. Rom. 8.26.27. also the spirit helpeth our infirmities, for what we should pray as we ought we know not: But the spirit it self maketh request for vsus with sighes & groanes which cā not be expressed: Yet searching the heartes knoweth the meaning of the spirit / because he maketh request for the saincts / according to the wil of God. And wher you say then / that if we marck the prescript forme of prayers of all Churches / we shall see this regard / that nothing be left out which is necessarie etc.Rom. 8.7 and 11.34 1. Cor 2.16 …d 3.19 This bewrayeth your shallownes / the wisedome of the flesh is foolishnes with God: who hath searched the depth of Gods spirit / or knowne the minde of man? who cā prescribe the estate of al Churches / and what eueryevery moment is needfull to be praied for… Odious then is such drosse of a fleshly mans heart.
Your secōd provision / that nothing be prayed for in your liturgy that falleth seldom out / but they are limited to the time. Your Church hath not this provision / you compel men to pray against thunder and lightning at midd winter / and in your most solemne feastes against sodeine death: But the truth is / till you amend your wayes / God will accept no sacrifice of you / much lesse requireth this at your handes / to do more in his worship then he hath commaunded.
And where you say / in the Church of England the preachers are not limyted touching the matter of their praiers / it is not true / you are all sworne to your portuis, howsoeuer / you may omitt some of yt for your Sermons / and vnderunder pretext therof / what part you will. And why is ther not a forme for prayer prescribed / to be vsed after and before your Sermons? ys it because the text is not allwaies the same / or that the speaker is not in like fitnes / or the auditorie in the same preparednes? I assure you these thinges might be sufficyent cause why you cannot use alwaies the same wordes / and pray according to your necessities / and even so standeth the case for al other affaires in the Church. The disposition of the soule and the distresses therof / continue not in one state one howre. But let me tell you whie you hauehave no forme of praier for your preachings: In manie of your parishes / or (as you would have them) Churches / Sermons are of those rare thinges / wherof you saye ther cā be no proscript forme of prayer / yea your liturgie approueth a ministerie and sufficyent administration without anie doctrine / which sheweth yt came out of the diuells forge / and not out of Christes Testament.
But seing you would take vponupon you to set so manie perscript formes of prayer / as ther is thinges necessarie for euerie assemblie to pray for / wher Christ hath set none / And if yt were a thing so necessarie to have prescript wordes at the administration of the Sacraments / I asked you whether our sauiour Christ had not forgott himself as you thought that when he commaunded his ministers to go preach and baptise / and shewed them the words of institution / and the Elementes to be vsed with all things thervnto needfull / he did not prescribe some forme of wordes for prayer in particular: In the tabernacle euerie pinne was prescribed / so that ether such formes of praier are not necessarie / or Christes Testament hath some wants. To this you answere / that yt is not of necessitie ther should be a sett forme of prayer prescibed for the administration of the Sacraments: The minister may conceive prayer / etc. Hold you to this / that it is not of necessity: you will denie it againe the next Argument. Well here you graunt / yt is not of necessitie / But you hauehave not answered me / till you tell me whether you hold it necessarie or no: if yl be at all times necessarie / the Testament is not perfect. Againe do you not hold yt of necessitie / when you eycommunicate men / and depose your ministery for not observing yt? But you saye / yt is for conueniencye. If it be a part of Gods worship / and all tymes conveniēt / then is it necessarie / and if yt be not necessarie / put such conueniency in your cornerd Capp / or surplus. Nowe if yt be necessarie at all times / you must proue yt is commaunded in Gods worde / or els say that all thinges necessarie in Gods worship be not cōteyned in Gods worde / which were-blasphemous and papisticall to affirme. To this you graunt all things necessarie and convenient are conteyned / and aske if I be ignorant that ther be manie thinges conteyned in the scriptures / that are not expressed in particulars / but be gathered from the generall rules. No / I am not ignorāt of this: but if it may be gathered ether by expresse wordes / or by general rule / that ther should be prescript formes of praier for the administration of the Sacraments / or anie other particular action of the Church / then must yt be so of necessitie / because God hath commaunded yt / though not in particular / yet in generall rules: But you graunt yt is not of necessity: therfore yt is not commaunded in particular / nor conteyned in anie generall rule.
Yet you demaunde of me / if one should obiect that ther were not cō maundement in the Scriptures / nor example for anie praiers to be made at all before preaching etc. I would say he should lye against God / we have both. For the Apostle sheweth yt was the chief part of their office / to perdure in the worde ād prayer. Act. 6.4 / 1. Cor. 14. and 1. Tim. 2.1 / Acts. 2.42. besides / all things are sāctified vntounto vsus by the word and praier. And because they never vsed doctrine in Church / but prayer wēt before / their meetings is said to be vntounto prayer.1. Tim. 4.5 Act. 16.13 …6. Some things ther are I graunt that are not prescribed in particular / and yet are commaunded by general doctrine / as baptisme of Infants. But whatsoeuer is commaunded ether in particular or necessarie collections from general rules / are of necessitie to be obeyed / as the commaundements of God / and may not be altered / but your particular formes of prescript wordes have no such warrant. Nowe seing you would have no prescript wordes of prayer for the minister to vse before his preaching / nor of necessitie for the Sacraments / and hauehave none for excommunicatiō / etc. I wondred wherof your Portuis is made / and wherto yt should serue / except for churchings and burialls and such popery / wherby you leaue the commaundements of God / to sett vp your owne traditiōs. And here vponupon I demaunded wherupon you would make your stinted and sett prayers. You marueile I should be so babling and make such questions you meane about your babling worship. You saye of the particulars of the Lordes prayer. I demaunde nowe againe / whether you can number the starres of heauen / or the sandes of the sea / if not / much lesse the… particulars of the Lordes prayer / There is medecine / and direction of prayer for euerie soule / and euerie disease therof to be drawen fourth by doctrine and prayer as the need requireth you would sett a liturgie vpō some thinges / and compell mē thervnto euerie meeting / which were nothing els but to seale vp the fountaine / and send men to the drye pitts of your execrable devises / from the whole fountaine / to a pitcher of water / from the liuely graces of doctrine and prayer / to your owne writinges. Paul commaunded to pray for Kings and Princes / yet bounde no man what wordes to vse.1. …. …. 1.2.3.4.5 The Lord gyve you repentance of such presumptuous sinne / as to alter his worship. If you cānot knowe the estate of the soule before hand / you can make no formes of wordes for yt.
… ▪ Argu▪Read praiers were deuised by Antechrist, and maintaine supers…ition & an Idoll ministery: therfore read praiers & such stinted service are intollerable &c.
G. Gi…ford.Antichrist devised manie blasphemous wicked praiers. But to say that the reading or following a prescript forme of praier was his, is most false, for there were Liturgies in the Church of olde, before Antichrist was set in his throne &c.
THe Scripture never inforced to reade praiers for praying / nether stinted v… what / or how manie wordes to vse / nether is the formes of praier prescribed in the Scripture / anie deuise of man.I. Greenwood. Let vsus then hold these two to be the matters in hand / the one / reading in steade of praying / the other / stinting and limiting by a written liturgie, what and howe …anie wordes to pray / with all other such prescriptions as your liturgie conteyneth. All may be affirmed antichristian which is not warranted by Christes worde: Yet your liturgie, is euē from that Antichrist lifted vp into the throne you speake of / as may of all men be seene that will cōpare yt with the Portuis: And (as I hauehave heard) the Pope would hauehave approued of your liturgie, if yt might hauehave bene receaued in his name. Nowe we hauehave proued in the discourse before / that reading for praying hath no warrant from Gods Worde / which maketh them two seuerall and divers actions eueryevery where.
Here then we must consider something for an other liturgie, thē Christes Testament / which we shall find to be nothing els / then an other gospell. And because Mr. Gifford saith ther were liturgies in the Church before Antichrist was lifted vp into his throne (which I will not denye) I would have all men vnderstand that I do not go about to proue the Church no Church that hath a liturgie (as mine Arguments are falslie wrested to that purpose) but to proue the vnlawfullnes og such liturgies thrust vponupon mēs Consciences / is onlie my determination through Gods assistance. The worde liturgia signifieth publicum munus, ergon Laou, the worck of / or for the people: that is the very execution of the m…nisteriall actions in the Church / according to the worde / of all the officers therof that is the practise of those ministeriall duties prescribed by Christ / we may eueryevery where reade. In the first of the Gospell of Luke the 23. verse it is said. And it came to passe that when the daies of his ministration were past he went home to his house, meaning Zacharias: where we see the worde Leitourgia for his execution of his ministeriall functiō. Now this Leitourgia of the newe Testament / is euen the rule and function prescribed by Christ / for the publique actions to be donne in his Church: which leiturgie of Christ is perfect / Gal 1.8.2 Heb. 22.18.19 2. tim 1.13 1 tim 6.14and he pronounced accursed that addeth any thing therto / or taketh any there from: yea all mē are bound to keep the true patterne therof / without alteration or innouating anie part of the same: yt is called a commaundemēt to be kept without spott / till the appearing of our Lorde Iesus Christ. Nowe / to make an other leiturgie, is to lay an other foundation / and to make an other Gospell / not that ther is an other Gospell / but that ther are some willing to peruert the Gospell of Christ. Thē your leiturgies to which you are sworne / and by which you administer / being (as you cannot denie) an other leiturg…e thē Christes Testamēt / is plaine an other Gospell / for the Canōs and rules you prescribe and impose are such as he hath not prescribed or commaanded / or at the best / a transforming of his ordinances / Now if you should say / you do nothing but make lawes of particular thinges collected frō the scriptures / ād with that collour impose your liturgies, we hauehave shewed the vnlawfullnes of bringing anie mans writinges / as rules into the Church. For the explaning of the whole will of Christ / so far as is meet for vsus / he hath giuen vsus his officers to administer / according to his liturgie by liuely voyce / and due executiō of all things by one rule. Making then a newe litourgia, you must also make a newe ministerie / for Christs ministerie cānot administer after a counterfeit liturgie. And that Antichrist was the theif Innouator of this liturgie (howsoeuer the thing might be long a working by litle and litle) yt is plaine when he is called Antikeimenos, 2. Tes. 2.4that opposite man / or laier of an other foundation Now we must not make all liturgies beside the Testament / of like wickednes or blasphemie / But how neere the most heynousest yours approach / let him that answereth the other part of your booke witnesse vntounto me.
Nowe where I said you had confessed that you neuer read in the Scriptures any warrant to reade praiers vntounto God / you say now / I knowe I hauehave falsified your wordes. Surely yt would be knowē / for I would not willinglie so do / your wordes you say were these / to your remembrance: God neuer commaunded a man to reade praier vpō the booke: Is not this the same that I saye: you confesse ther is no warrant for reading prayer, is ther anie thing warranted in his worship / that he hath not commaunded? Then you aske me if I will gather thus / is it not expresse cōmaunded / therfore yt is not warrāted. No you forgot the worde expressie / to help your self to saye and vnsaye. I gathered / that because you said absolutely it was not cōmaunded / therfore yt was not warranted. Here you come againe to shewe your ignorance in the Scriptures / to say ther is not anie expresse commaundement to vse praier before or after doctrine. And remember / you here will hauehave it a commaundement / and said before you hold yt not of necessitie. G. Gifford.There vvould sundry inconueniences grovve for vvant of a Liturgie, or prescript formes of publique prayers.
I. Greenwood.STill I must put you in minde of the wisedome of that gouernour of his house / the builder / beginner and finisher of our Faith Christ Iesus: he foresawe what inconueniēce would hauehave growne if either mē or Angells should make newe liturgies, or other formes of praier / thē he hath prescribed / for the publique assemblies. Here therfore you deeply chardge him / not to hauehave donne all thinges that were needfull / in not prescribing you more formes then he hath donne / or not suffred learned diuines to impose their owne writinges vponupon publique assemblies / as rules for the Church / and worship vntounto God. But see what the Scripture saith / who hath knowē the mynde of the Lord, … Cor 2.16 … 2.20 /that he might instruct him. Againe▪ wher is the wise, where the Scribe, where the disputer of this world, hath not God made the wisedome of this world foolishnes? To put you out of doubt then / that we neede not any newe liturgie / nor anie mens writinges to be brought into the publique assemblies / the Holie Ghost saith / 2. Timot. 3.16. The whole Scripture is Theopneustos, inspired of God / and profitable vntounto doctrine / vntounto improof / vntounto correction / vntounto erudition which is in righteousnes / that the mā of God may be absolute / perfect fully furnished vntounto euerie good worcke. Nowe if onlye the Scriptures be Theopnestos, and sufficiēt to make Gods children absolutely perfect / even fully furnistied to eueryevery good worck / what blasphemie is yt to say / sundrie inconueniences would growe / if mens writinges were not imposed vponupon the publique assemblies?
And in this your wisedome / let vsus see what is the chiefest inconueniē cy that would growe. You say euerie frāticke spirit (of which sorte ther be manie in the ministerie) would not only be vnlike themselues / but varie from others. I answered / and still do / that the Papists hauehave not so weake a reason for their Idolatrous liturgies / Rubricks, & Canons. You say yt appeareth by all my Arguments / how meete a man I am to iudge the weight of reasons alleadged by the Papists / and others: well I am weake / and you strong / foolish / and you wise / yet might you hauehave shewed me a weaker reason which they alleadge for their constitutious ecclesiastical / as they call them. But my chief answere was (wherby you might hauehave beene satisfied) that if it were but in Phrases the ministerie should differ / yt is no sufficient cause to ordeine liturgies. And if they offend in matter of doctrine or conversation / the censure of the Church should help that. The first you graunt / the second also you confesse / that the Church should censure such thinges: But you say ther are sundrie other differēces in administration of publique prayers and Sacramēts as in order and ceremonies which the Church is to hauehave regard of / and not to leaue arbitrarie. All other ceremonies in Gods worship then Christ and his Apostles hauehave prescribed vsus / are diabolicall / and not Apostolical. Then / for all thinges donne in the Church in those publique actions / the offenders must be admonished / if they transgresse the rules of the word. And for the orers you speake of / you meane circumstāces of time / place / kneeling / sitting / standing etc. of them thet can be no furder lawes / then Christ hath prescribed / that all things be donne to edifying / in comelyues and decency etc. of these to set particular lawes / were to breake the lawe of God / which leaueth them in the Churches liberty as neede requireth / to the glorie of God. In these thinges to do anie thing contrarie to the generall rules of order / edifying / decencye etc. the trāsgressour is by those rules to be instructed / admonished and cēsured.
Well / here you hauehave made a faire hand / to make read prayers but a matter of order / which is all the worship you hauehave / to bring in mens writings into the publique assemblies / to make then ether rules to bind the conscience / and so put them in the place of Gods booke / or to reade them ouer for praying / is but a matter of order / well then put them in your cornerd Capp / we hauehave enough rules for the ordering of Christs spouse / without such Babilonish ware. Here you say mine experience is not so great as my boldnes. I passe not to be iudged of you / yt is not like that the enchaunters of egipt should knowe the beautye of Sion: ther is a cloude betweene you and vsus: we hauehave (blessed be our God) a pillar of fire before vsus. An other fault you say in my former reason / is / that because the censure of the Church should redresse defaultes / therfore ther needeth no liturgie. Naye take all with you: No fault cā be censured that is not a transgression against the rules of Gods worde, and those to be censured by the doctrine and admonitions of the Church, the…fore we neede no leiturgies. To the worde of God only / ought all mē to be bounde by covenant / and for the transgressions therof only / to be censured.
G. Gifford.
The Church hath this power, to ordeine according to Gods worde, & to appointe such orders in matters of circumstance &c. as shall most fitly serue to edification. And then these orders being established the Church is to driue men to the obseruation of them.
I. Greenvvood.
FIrst / in this your papisticall mudde / I must tell you / your reading of mēs writinges for prayer / is a false worship of God / and not a matter of circumstance, And for matters of order and circumstance / which are no part of the worship / ther can be no other lawes made of thē / thē Christ hath made: As for ordeyning of lawes in the church / it is to plead for vnwritten verities / and to make the lawe of God vnsufficiēt: nether cā yt be according to the worde / to make anie lawe / that God hath not made / but an adding to his worde / which is execrable pride: these your wordes then (according to Gods worde) was but a cloake to couer the grosseues of your position: for the worde / ordeyne / or create lawes / is to make some / that are not made before: let vsus thē see your cleane sentence to be this / The Church hath aucthority in matters of order & circumstance to make & ordeine lawes in his Church▪ for his worship: nowe see how you contradict these Scriptures. Rev. 22.18.19. Prov. 30.5.6. euerie worde of God is pure etc. put nothing to his worde least he reprooue thee ād thou be found a liar. likwise Deut. 4.2. and 12.32. and Gal. 3.15. though it be but a mans covenant / when it is confirmed / no man doth abrogate it / or superordeine anie thing to it. And the second Commaundemēt forbiddeth anie such humane tradition in the worship of God: all the Popes trinckets might be brought in by the same grounde: We would willingly hauehave seene your warrāt for this doctrine / your bare worde is not sufficient to impose other lawes then God hath made / vpō his Church. This is the foundation of poperie and Anabaptistrie / to giuegive libertie to make lawes in the worship of God. Yet you will go furder / that such lawes being ordeyned and established by publique auctoritye / the discipline and censures of the CHVRCH are to driue men to the observation of the same. By your iudgment our Sauiour CHRIST was an Anabaptisticall Schismatique / that would not himself / nor his Disciples / obey and obserue the traditions of the Elders: And what saith he vntounto pleaders for traditions. It is thus writtē Marke 7.5. thē asked him the Pharises and the Scribes, whie walke not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eate meate with vnwashed hands. Thē he answeared, surely ISAY hat prophecied well of you hypòcrites, as it is written▪ this people honoreth me with their lippes but their heartes are far frō me. But they worship me in vayne, teaching doctrines mēs precepts. Fo… you lay the commaundement of God aside and obserue the tradition of mē.
And to helpe fourth your euill matter / instead of proof from the scripture / you fall out into furious exclamation against them that desire only to hauehave the worde practized: saying / who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practize of your anabaptisticall freedome / in which you deny the Church to have power to ordeine and impose any orders? lett all men iudge the venemousenes of this tongue / Christ pronounceth them accursed that add or super ordeyne any thing to his worde / and you pronounce iudgment of them / that only obey his worde. Shall yt be said that Mr. Gifford holdeth / that the only practize of Gods worde / would be the cause of innumerable diuisions and offences? This hath bene Satans old accusation in the mouth of the most enimies of Christs Gospell: nowe yt must be Mr. Giffords accusation of Gods ordinances / to be insufficient … vnperfect / etc. fearfull is his Apostacy from that truth he hath knowen. I take it / yt is more like to be Anabaptistry / to practise any thing without warrant of the word / to make their owne devises lawes / in Gods worship / then to do nothing but what God hath commaunded / within the limites of our callings.
For the frāticke ministery / yt came of your owne wordes / that therfore you must needes hauehave a liturgie, because ther are manie frātick spirits in the ministerie? then I say / it is like you hauehave a frantick ministerie / that cannot be gouerned without an other liturgie then Christs Testament: For their great giftes you speake of: I will not compare with them.
My reason from the Colossians was that as the church there is commaunded to admonish their Pastor Archippus / if he transgressed / and to stirr him vp to his busines / so all minister… that caused divisions / contrary to the doctrine of Christ / were to be admonished / and auoyded / if then repent not: so that the worde of God / and admonition by the same / if they transgressed / is the waye to keepe all men in due order / and not imposing liturgies vponupon the church / besides Christs Testament.
And where you collected thus / that if read praiers / and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous / thē wher will you finde a visible church / say you. I answered that the true Church might erre / euen in this poynte / though not in like height of sinne. Then you desire / that the churches of England may find lik… fauour at our hand:M. Barrowes refutation discovery, etc. to which I answeare / let him that handleth that question with you / shew you / how your sinnes herein exceede other countries / and persequ…t such as reproue you. Your church (as you call yt) cannot pleade ignorance. Your rayling speaches / of blind Schismatiques / Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart: if you cannot proue your church to be the established church of CHRIST / they light all vponupon your self. Ther are none Schismatiques, but such as departe from the faith / shew wherin we hauehave transgressed / and will not be reformed. In the meane tyme you are Schismatiques from Christ / in that you practize the Statutes of omry. You chardge vsus with pride / for that (you saye) we imagine to knowe more then all the Churches vppon earth. This also hath bene Satans old weapon to deface the truth Iere. 18.18. why maye not a simple babe in Christ see that / which whole nations hauehave not seene? we cannot but speake the things GODS Worde teacheth vsus: if we speake trueth / you need not oppose that we iudge anie man / yt is the worde of God shall iudge vsus all / ād I saye / yt is an old popish Argument to reason thus (all Churches do such a thing / therfore it is lawfull) except you hold with the Pope / that the Church cannot erre / which were blasphemous. You are not well pleased that I will not say it is no Church that hath a liturgie imposed vponupon yt / and because you hauehave so often sclandered me / that I hold yt so / you take great paynes to conclude it. I hauehave said that to impose mēs writings / to be read in stead of praying / is to worship God after a false maner / that yt is a devise of Antichrist / a deade letter / quenching the spirit / not of faith / Idolatrous is changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll / breauing our Christiā libertye / and so most detestable. By these speaches I condemne al churches say you: this is not true / I condemne but the sinne. But you have sayd I deny that to be the Church / that hath any thing ymposed, I say you speake an open vntrueth / and remember the iudgment of him that inuenteth and maketh lyes: And God giuegive you grace to repent / if you belong to him. The consideration of this our discourse / I hartelie commēde to be dulie ād vprightly wayed / of all that feare God / who graunt vsus his grace to forsake any sinne / where it shalbe shewed vsus / by how weake instruments soever yt be reproved / and pardon me all my defaults / in this my hastie answere. Thus have we seene the vnlawfullnes of thrusting mens writings vponupon publique assemblies / and reading instead of praying.