Answer to Giffords Defense of Read Prayers, Argument 3
The third Argument.
We may not in the worship of God receaue anie tradition which bringeth our libertie into bondadge. Read praier vponupon commandement brought into the publique assemblies, is a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bondage. Therfore read prayer &c.
The Minor is thus proved / that God hath left it in all mens freedome to pray as the present occasion requireth and the spirit giveth vtterance / according to his will. Againe no man hath power to commaunde anie thing in the worship of God / which God hath not cōmaunded etc. Marke. 7.7.8.9. Mat. 15. Gal. 5, 1. etc.
G. Gifford.
I say it is vngodlie and neere vntounto blasphemie, to affirme, that prescript forme of prayer is a tradition bringing our libertie into bondage &c. my reason was & is, that the Lord by Moses prescribed a forme of blessing &c. Nom 6. the Prophetes in the Psalmes have prescribed manie formes of prayer. Our Sauiour Christ prescribed a forme of praier &c.
I. Greenvvood.
HEre is a greate storme / and yet nothing but wynde. If you were in Cai…has his place you would either have rent your clothes for zeale / or els condemne me before you vnderstand what I say. Is yt simple dealing do you thinke to say / I hold it a bondage breaking our libertie, for the Lord by Moses, … Prophetes, our Sauiou… Christ also, to set downe a forme of praier or to prescribe a forme of praier: Did you not see that the Minor Propositiō speaketh of the reading / for praing / and not of the forme of prayer? Agayne / of the commandement / wher by men are compelled to reade instead of praying? Did you not see that these wordes brought in to the publique assemblies, did specifye the matter to be mens writtings to be read in the assemblies as a worship / yea invocation of Gods name: which is a grosse mockery. Not that ther is any Commandement to reade ouer those formes of praier mentioned by you / for praying: and so the Cōmandement so to reade them for praying is an abuse of them / and a Commandement of men and not of God etc. But that much more odious yt is to bring in mens writtings into the publique assemblies / proved vnlawfull in the first argument / and then to commit Idolatrie with them by reading them instead of praying / and that to cōpell men by Commandement wher God had set no Commandement … vse them / was a bringing all men into bondage of popish traditions. So that your common recitall of these places of Scripture is abuse of them / and you do but palinodian canere. I thincke if you get St. IHONS gospell about your necke as the Papists / you wil thincke you hauehave religion ynough. The more fearful is your Apostacy / you proceede from euill to worse.
G. Gifford.
About the Commaunding a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed, our Church doth agree with all godly Churches, yea the reformed Churches hauehave and do practize the same. here therfore I wish the reader to obserue that you Brovvnists do not only condemne the Church of England, but all the reformed Churches whatsoeuer, and can be no other but Donatistes.
I. Greenvvod.
I Trust your madnes will appeare to all men / the poyson of Aspes is vnderunder your tongue: he that cannot rule his tongue his Religion is in vayne. Shall I in your hea…e be pressed with multitude of Churches? thē heare what the Lorde saith / Thou shalt not followe a multitude to do euill.Exo. 23.2 we have the worde amongst vsus / we shall by that worde be either iustified or condemned. Then either proue your matter from te Schriptures. or els giuegive eare to the Scripture. If those Churches you speake of / bring mens writinges in to the publique assemblies / et in force them to be read for praying / I would see their warrāt / we belieue not because men say so or do so / but because God speaketh: And where he speaketh / al men must besilent. You may accuse …ther Countries as you wil / I knowe not their estate / but your drudgery insteade of true worship / is lothsome / the Priest with his masse-booke / and begger with his clapdisch canuize ouer the Pater noster for their bellie / which is your com-mon worship / with other trinckets. We shall speake of a Liturgie in due place. Here you breath out your accustomed lyes / sclanders / and …. First you terme vsus Brownists and Donatists / wheras I neuer conuersed wit the men nor their writings: I detest Donatus his heresies. And if they had beene instruments to teach vsus anie truth we were not therfore to be named with their name / we were baptized into Christs. Browne is a member of your Church your brother / and al Brownists do frequent your assemblies.
And here you wish the reader to consider / that I condemne all reformed Churches / do I condemne all Churched for reprouing a sinne by Gods wordes May not the true Church… (if they were such) err▪ Did I affirme at anie tyme tha… they were no true Church that vsed read prayers / remember your self / you knowe who is the Father of such vntruthes. But because your Conscience bare you witnesse you had wrongfully chardged me / and for me / all true Christians: you bring yt in by necessary consequence thus, you affirme (say you) prescript formes of prayer brought into the publique assemblies to be the changing the worke of the Spirit into an idoll, a tradition breaking Christian libertie, a deade letter quēching the Spirit &c, and therfore most detestable. But all reformed Churches recieue and vse it &c. … therfore. You cā reason well to bring the thruth into contēpt / your mouth to open and tongue wher as a sworde therunto. If the proposition be true / drawe what consequence you wil / it is yours an not myne / if the doctrine be true yt is Gods worde that giueth sentence against the sinne. And if you hauehave … spar…e of grace / procure that we may decide the truth with other Churches. Doth it follow that because imposing of mens writinges to be read for praying is an …ynous synne / therfore they that vse yt are no Church▪ If I should say so / I should iustlie be called an Anabaptist.
And here you accuse me to pleade for such a freedome in the Church / that nothing be receaued which is imposed by commaundement. Abaddon is the Father of such Prophets. Doth yt follow that because we would hauehave …he Church free from al traditions of men which hauehave no warrant in Gods worde / that therfore we would not receaue Gods ordinances by Commaundement. That we ought to receaue nothing by Commaundement in the worship of God / which God hath not commaunded / the secōd cōmaundement with the Scriptures I hauehave rehearsed / are euident. Deut 5.32 33. Mat. 25.2.3. Gal. 4.9. Collos. 2.20. But seing your self graueled / considering all the world cannot lay a Commandement to bring thei… owne inventions into the assemblies / wher God hath laide none / but forbidden yt: you ranne to your former places of Scripture to wrast them as before / where your collections are but vaine repetitions of that which hath beene cōvinced before. Moses / the Prophets etc. prescribed formes of prayers / therfore men now may thrust their writings into the publique assemblies: Your Argument is denied: and yet here is no warrāt for the reading them ouer for prayer.
G. Gifford.
The Church hath povver to expounde those prayers mentioned in the Scriptures, and to apply them to their seuerall necessities &c.
I. Greenvvood.
If you meane by expounding / the breaking vp off them by doctrine / and by doctrine and prayer to aplye thē to the seueral vses of the church by liuely voyce / far be yt from me to thinke otherwise. But if you meane by expounding / to make homilies vponupon them / or liturgies by writing to be thrust vponupon the publique assemblies / you are wide / and now iustifie homilies instead of preaching / and written prayers instead of praying▪ shew your warrant: The CH…CHES power is limited by the word.
G. Gifford.
When the prayers be framed and composed of nothing but the doctrine of the Scriptures, and after the rules of true prayer, nothing is broug… in which God hath not commaunded.
I. Greenvvood.
THis might have come in before your raylings / but you sawe yt was too silly▪ where is that commaundement of God / that all mēs wri…tinges in forme of prayer agreable to the Scriptures should b… brought into the publique assemblies) your bare worde is not enough t… put … to silence. And when you have gott them into the Church / yo… must prove that GOD hath commaunded they should be read fo… praier.
Where I said our Sauiour Christ neuer vsed the wordes when h… praied / of that forme of praier he gaue to his Disciples / nether cōmau…ded his Disciples to say ouer these wordes / nether do we reade tha… euer his Apostles did use them / or enforced others to vse anie certein number of wordes / you say I speake vntrulie. For say you the Disciple desired him to teach them to pray / as Iohn taught his Disciples / an… he commaunded them / when you pray / say Our Father / etc. Luke. 1… and S. Math. an Apostle hath deliuered the same to the whole Church. I answer I hauehave never heard that Ihon Baptist taught his Disciples to say ouer certeyne wordes / nether can yt be gathered by our Sauiour Christes answere: for he answeared not alwaies their verie demaunde according to their wordes / but thervpon tooke occasiō to instruct them as he sawe neede. And I hauehave proued by the 6. of Math. that our Sauiour did not commaunde them to say ouer the very wordes when they prayd; for the word Houtos in Mathew signifieth after this maner: Againe that Math. recordeth not the very number / or the very same wordes that Luke doth. And now I reason thus: if Christ had commaunded those very wordes to be said ouer in praying / then we must alwaies whē we pray / say ouer those wordes: for in Math. …. he saith when you pray / pray thus / Our Father etc. The word when sheweth / that this commaundement is to be observed at all tymes: And then the Apostles sinned in praying other wordes Acts. 4.24.25. Furder yt being the most summary forme of prayer / most ample / most perfect etc. if those wordes were commaunded to be said ouer / then we ought not to vse any others for he is accursed that bringeth not the best offring… he hath. Malach. 1.14. By all these yt is euident that our Sauiour nor his Evangelists tyed no man to the very wordes saying ouer / but according to that forme and those instructions: and now leaue of your popish dreames. Yet you would make mē belieue I reasoned thus / that the Apostles did not / nether our Sauiour himself / nor anie that we reade of / vse these wordes in prayer / therfore they did not use yt. Nay I said they did not vse those verie wordes in their prayers / but vsed other wordes according to their particular wants / as our Sauiour in the 17. of Iohn is said to do: therfore he nether vsed nor cōmaunded others to say ouer those wordes. And so I may well conclude / that to impose certaine wordes to be read or said by ro…te for praying / vpō the church / espeaciallie mēs writings / is an intollerable pride / euen a setting of men in the place of God: Also to vse them or bowe downe vntounto them in that order / is sinne / and breach of Gods lawe.