Short Reply to the Donatists, Text (1 of 3)
A ſhort Replie vntounto the laſt printed Bookes of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood, the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatiſtes in England.
I Did lay to your charge (M Barrow and Maſter Greenwood) a matter very haynous and deteſtable; yea, moſt odious in the ſight of eueryevery good man, as namely intollerable pride, preſumption, and wicked intruſion into Gods office, for that ye vtterly condemne and abandon, all our aſſemblies, as haynouſty, faulty, and ſo wilfully obſtinate, in ſuch principall tranſgreſſions, as that they hauehave forfayted the couenant and are ſeparated from the fayth and communion of Chriſt. I ſet downe reaſons from Gods word to conuince yee in this, that if it pleaſed God ye might repent for this ſauage crueltie, by which ye indeuour to rend and teare vp all the Lords tender plants: If not, yet that others might ſee, & tremble at your inordinate and outragious boldenes.
VntoUnto this ye hauehave replied; ſtifly affirming, and labouring to maintayne, that ye hauehave rightly condemned and caſt foorth our aſſemblies as moſt wicked Antichriſtian Synagogues. Adding moreouer, that ye lie in priſon as Chriſts poore afflicted ſeruants, the Lords witneſſes agaynſt vsus, that your bonds and ſufferings are glorious, and that I as a wicked falſe Prophet, and as a marked ſeruant of Antichriſt, hauehave vncharitably, reuiled ye, both for thoſe former wordes, as alſo that I that tearme you Donatiſtes; Schiſmatikes, &c.
If ye be Chriſts ſeruants, and hauehave iuſtly accuſed, condemned, and caſt forth, doing no more that Chriſt hath ſent ye for, and authoriſed ye to doo, then hauehave I vnchriſtianly and as a falſe Prophet indeede, reuiled ye and your glorious ſufferinges. But then take this withall by the way, that the Donatiſts in olde time, and the Annabaptiſts of late daies, were Chriſts poore afflicted ſeruants, & Gods witneſſes, & that the Churches and their miniſters did vnchriſtianly reuile them and their glorious ſufferings. For I hauehave giuen yee none other tearmes then the Churches gaue them: And if in the chiefe poynts of Donatiſme ye be not full Donatiſts, and ſo holde ſundry poyntes of Annabaptiſme, being fallen into their tents and as outragiouſly fighting againſt all Churches, and with the ſame weapons that they did, and with as blinde fury condemning them, as thoſe other, let me be accounted for no better indéede than a lying Prophet.
Your words are many, and great are your outcries, but let vsus ſee how well ye defend and cleare your ſelues by them, from this moſt wicked intruſion into Gods office. I ſet down firſt againſt ye, that he doth wickedly and proudly thruſt himſelfe into Gods office, which taketh vponupon him to iudge and condemne any one man to be no true Chriſtian, which holding the place and dignitie of a brother in Gods Church and profeſſing the fayth ſoundly, ſtudieth to pleaſe God, for the common errors and frailties vntounto which euen the moſt perfect are ſubiect, becauſe the holy ſcriptures ſpeaking of the regenerate, hauehave theſe ſayings: We know but in part, 1. Cor. 13. who vnderſtandeth his errors. Pſal. 19. And in many things wee ſinne all. I am. 3. Then how much more intollerable is their wicked preſumption and intruſion into Gods office, which take vponupon them vtterly to condemne as quite ſeparate from Chriſt all the aſſemblies in a kingdome, which profeſſing the Goſpell, hauehave many particuler members in them, that earneſtly indeuour to pleaſe God, and are not ſpotted with any groſſe errors or notorious offences?
Then further doe I alleadge, that as a brother hath his place and dignitie in a Chriſtian aſſemblie, ſo our Church of England hath her place and dignitie among all the godly Churches: which for the fayth that ſhee doth together with them publiquely profeſſe, and ſincerely in all the principles and grounds of the holy Chriſtian religion, doe not only allow her the place, but alſo do regarde and louelove her, giuing vntounto her the dignitie of a ſiſter, yea euen of a mother in Iſrael, becauſe ſhee hath not beene barren, but hath brought forth many deare children to God, and not a few of them crowned with martyrdome. Ye hauehave not (Maſter Barrow) anſwered one worde vntounto al this, but hauehave with déepe ſilence ſlipt paſt it.
But ye ſay, He that is in his conſcience conuinced of errors and doth perſiſt in them, is wilfully obſtinate, and ſo euidently declareth that he hath no faith. And in this caſe yee ſay is the Church of England, it holdeth errors and is conuinced in them, and yet perſiſteth to defend and teach the ſame, and therefore it is quite ſeperated from Chriſt.
Agaynſt this I ſet downe, that a brother offending, is not to be iudged ſo wilfully obſtinate, as that he is to be caſt forth and condemned to be but as an heathen, becauſe he is conuinced of his ſinne and error by priuate admonitions, and doth perſiſt, but when the admonition and cenſure of the Church is deſpiſed. For our Sauiour ſayth not, If hee will not heare thee count him as an heathen, or if thou take one or two with thee, and …e will not heare them: But if he will not heare the Church, then let him be vntounto thee as an heathen. Math. 18. This ye hauehave not anſwered, for ye can ſhew no place in Gods word, where this power is giuen to priuate men, but onelyonly to the Church. And yet perſiſt in this moſt horrible intruſion, forgetting the precept, Judge not that ye be not iudged, Math 7. and he that condemneth his brother, condemneth the lawe: and thou condemneſt the law, thou art not an obſeruer of the law, but a Iudge. Iam. 4. verſ. 11. And therefore we muſt heare enter into a larger discourſe about it. I will firſt ſ…t downe that which yee bring to mayntayne your doing.
We doubt not (ſay you) neither euer thought, but the beſt Church, that conſiſteth of mortall men may fall, either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors: yea wee doubt not but that ſome famous Churches and Chriſtians may fall into ſuch errors, as he te…meth fundamentall: the holding whereof ſhould vtterly ſubuert the faith. As in the Church of Corinth, Galatia, and Aſia, there were &c. But this wee holde withall, that no true Church or Chriſtian will maintaine any ſinne or error, when it is euidently ſhewed and conuinced vntounto them by the word of God, &c. To your ſecond charge we anſwer, that wee hauehave learned to put difference, betwixt error and hereſie. All good men (as is ſayd) doo and may erre, but no good man will defend or perſiſt in his error, when it is ſhewed and conuinced vntounto him. Obſtinacie ioyned vntounto error after it is duely conuinced, maketh hereſie. Further, we ſay that any error, being obſtinatly holden and taught, after it is duely reprooued and conuinced vntounto him maketh an heretick, and hereſie in that partie, or in that congregation that ſo holdeth and teacheth it, doth ſeparate from the faith and communion of Chriſt. Wherefore we can but wonder at your ignorance who ſtand for a teacher in your Church, and yet hold ſome errors obſtinatly held and taught agaynſt the trueth of GOD, not to be hereſies, or (at the leaſt) not to be fundamentall. &c.
In theſe words (Maſter Barrow) which I doubt not, ye will acknowledge, lieth the whole defence and cléering of your ſelues from that wicked and preſumptuous intruſion into Gods office, which I hauehave layd to your charge. I am ſure (that in your imagination) ye vtter in them moſt diuine & vndoubted principles, or els how could yee bring in your concluſion of ſuch wonder at mine ignorance, ſtanding for a Teacher in our Church? Then muſt we ſtand and wonder each at other: for I doo indeed greatly wonder to ſee how ſtrong the illuſions of Satan be, when he is turned into the likenes of an Angell of light, that ſuch men as you (taking vponupon ye, not to ſtand as teachers in ſome particular Churches, but to controule all Churches, and all the learned teachers that hauehave been ſince the Apoſtles, as if yee were ſent from heauen with ſpeciall knowledge aboue all others) ſhould in ſo fewe words bewray ſo much confuſed palpable ignorance, and abſurd errors. In very deede vnderunder this ſtreame of words lieth one of the chiefe rocks vponupon which ye are runne, and againſt which ye cauſe many a ſimple ſoule to daſh with great hazard, leading them into the ſame wicked preſumption agaynſt God, which your ſelues are fallen into. The reader ſhall ſee plainly, that here is no cléering your ſelues from that foule intruſion into Gods office, vnleſſe the heaping vp of errors may be déemed cléering. I will begin firſt with the difference which (ye ſay) ye hauehave learned to put betwixt error and hereſie. The onelyonly difference which ye make is the obſtinate perſiſting in it, and teaching it, after it is conuinced vntounto him that erreth. Which is nothing els indeede but confuſedly in ſtead of putting difference betwixt error and bereſie, to note the difference betwixt a man that erreth in ſimplicitie, and an hereticke. In deed becauſe S. Paule ſayth, That an hereticke is peruerted and ſinneth condemned of himſelfe. Tit. 3. And that ſuch cauſe offences and diuiſions contrary to the wholeſome doctrine which we hauehave learned. Rom. 16. We hold them not hereticks vnleſſe they bee conuinced, and obſtinatly deſpiſe the iudgement of God, and the iudgement of the Church, conuincing them by the light of the word, and ſeeke to peruert others and to draw them into their faction. But will it hereupon followe that no error is of it ſelfe an hereſie, vnleſſe it light into ſuch a man as obſtinatly will holde and teach it? Or that eueryevery error (euen the leaſt) by obſtinacie of man ioyned with it, becommeth hereſie? Then you ſay thus in effect, eueryevery error is an hereſie, no error is an hereſie. This (Maſter Barrow) is your déepe ſkill which ye boaſt of that ye hauehave learned: for if the man put the difference by his obſtinacie, it muſt needes be ſo. Then let me aſke ye where ye hauehave learned y• to deny the vnitie of the Godhead, is not an hereſie, or y• trinitie of perſons in the ſame, or to deny that Chriſt is God, or that he is man, vnleſſe the man that erreth in them be conuinced and found obſtinate? Are not theſe and ſuch like, hereſies in themſelues, although the men that erre in them be not conuin… …t hold them ignorantly? Agayne, ſhew vsus where ye hauehave …rned, that eueryevery error, euen to the leaſt, being in an hereticke becommeth an hereſie. Thus may the reader ſee how confuſedly ye hauehave put that to diſtinguiſh errors, which doth but diſtinguiſh betweene the men that doo erre.
In the next place, where you ſay, that the error muſt be duely conuinced vntounto the conſcience of the man that erreth, before he can be ſo wilfully obſtinate, as doth ſeparate him from the faith and from the communion of Chriſt: ye ſpeake ſome trueth, but ye ſpeake ye knowe not what. For it ye could ſee, it is ſo farre from cléering ye, from preſumptuous intruſion into Gods office, that it vtterly ouerthroweth ye; and your former words and ſomewhat which ye write elſewhere in this booke being laid with it, becommeth a very ſnare for to hold ye. Ye hauehave accuſed the Church of England, condemned, and caſt her foorth for wilful obſtinacie, as quite ſeparated from Chriſt; now let vsus ſee how duely ye hauehave conuinced out whole Church all the aſſemblies, and all the particular members in the ſame, and found them hereticks. Firſt remember your owne words in this place; that ye doubt not, neither euer thought, but that the beſt Church which conſiſteth of mortall men, may fall either of negligence or ignorance, into grieuous offences and dangerous errors, and that ſome famous Churches and Chriſtians may fall into ſuch errors, as I terme fundamentall &c.
Touching the faults which you charge the Church of England withall in our worſhip, in our people, in our Miniſtrie and gouernment Eccleſiaſticall, albeit in the whole courſe of your writings your ſpeaches be merueilous exceſſiue, yet in the 180, 181, 182. pages of this your booke agaynſt me, ye plainly confeſſe them to bee ſuch as right excellent Chriſtians hauehave ignorantly erred and dyed in. For ſpeaking of thoſe which ſuffered death for religion in our Church, ye call them godly Martyrs, ſaying; that ye doubt not of their happie and bleſſed eſtate, all their ſinnes, and theſe falſe offices and miniſtrie which they executed in their ignorance among the reſt, being forgiuen them. Theſe be your owne words (Maſter Barrow) which I hauehave ſet downe. You acknowledge them to bee godly bleſſed Martyrs, they erred (you ſay) in theſe things, but of ſimplicitie through ignorance. If thoſe principall men were ignorant in theſe matters, then is it no meruaile if all the reſt in the land were ignorant in them, which imbraced the Goſpell. VponUpon this it followeth, that the Church of England was or might bee a true Church, vntill ſuch time as ſhe was duely conuinced of …er errors and found obſtinate. And if ſhe hath not been duely conuinced, and found in ſuch wilfull obſtinacie, as doth quite ſeparate from the faith, and from the communion of Chriſt, then is ſhe ſtill or may bee the true Church hauing (it may bee for ought that you knowe, and there is no likelihood to the contrarie) many thouſands in her, which are readie to ſhed their bloud for the holy Goſpell of Chriſt. And then how wicked, and how accurſed is your preſumption in condemning her vtterly?
Nay (ſay you) but ſhe is conuinced and all your aſſemblies, and found ſo wilfully obſtinate in maintayning her errors euen againſt her knowledge, that ſhe hath forfaited the couenant, and is ſeparated from the communion of Chriſt.
This is your bare accuſation, you may not cary away the matter ſo (for then indeede ye may eaſily cleare your ſelues from wicked intruſion into Gods office) but wee muſt examine (… ye graunt there muſt be a due conuincing) firſt what it … be duly conuinced, then, when, and by whome ſhe hath been … ſuch ſorte, or ſo duly conuinced as ye charge her, and yet found obſtinate. This is the rule, that one brother offending is not to looſe the dignitie and place of a Chriſtian, and to be reputed as an heathen, vntill ſuch time as he bee conuinced by the Church, and found ſo obſtinate that he doth deſpiſe her iudgement and authoritie. This is the onelyonly due conuincing, and here is the onelyonly power to eaſt fo…rth as heathen, a man in ſome offence conuinced. And ſhall not a Church hauehave as great priuiledge as a man? Is it not more then abſurd, to ſay, one man cannot be caſt foorth as an heathen for obſtinacie in ſome offence agaynſt priuate admonitions, but whole Churches may? All the true Churches hauehave conuinced the Church of Rome, and condemned her as obſtinate, not in ſome light offences, in which true Chriſtians may erre, but as moſt blaſphemous and Idolatrous againſt the principles of fayth and grounds of Religion, teaching that no Chriſtian man ought to ioyne with her. But what Churches are they which hauehave conuinced the Church of England of ſuch errors, and found her ſo obſtinate, that they hauehave condemned her and willed all men to forſake her? O▪ M. Barrow, you ſhall finde that all the godly Churches are ſo farre from this, that contrariwiſe they acknowledge her for a ſiſter. Looke then againe vponupon your horrible preſumption, and ſee who hath giuen you ſuch power aboue and agaynſt all Churches? If ye minde obſtinately to perſiſt in your euill without warrant, and euen agaynſt this manifeſt worde of God, (being much better ye ſhould fall downe and bewayle your vngodly wayes, and ſeeke for pardon) ye hauehave no way to ſhift or to colour your wickednes but this, that men may bee conuinced of error by particular perſons, and that ſo hath the Church of England beene duly conuinced. It is out of all doubt that men which erre may …e conuinced by any particular perſons whatſoeuer, for it is the power and light of Gods word onelyonly which conuinceth: but that which maketh men to be caſt forth as heathen for obſtinacie when they are conuinced, is not (as I hauehave ſhewed) obſtinacie agaynſt pryuate admonitions, but the deſpiſing the iudgement and power of the Church when ſhe hath conuinced and reproued. So that your paſſage is here agayne ſtopped, and ye are cut off: but yet I will follow ye in this, yeelding this ſcope, to ſee when or who they be of particular perſons which hauehave duely conuinced the Church of England and al her aſſemblies of ſuch errors. Firſt for the martyrs in our Church, yee hauehave ſet them vponupon the ſhore ſafely landed, out of all danger of wilfull obſtinacie: for pag. 181. thus ye write.
Theſe godly martyrs, ſo lately eſcaped out of the ſmoakie furnace of the popiſh Church, coulde not ſo clerely diſcerne, and ſodainely enter into the heauenly, and beautifull order of a true eſtabliſhed Church. And thoſe godly men being ſo vnexpert, and vnexerciſed in his heauenly worke, neuer hauing long liued in, ſeen or heard of any orderly communion of Saints, any true eſtabliſhed Church vponupon the earth of ſo many hundreth yeares, neuer ſince the generall defection of Antichriſt, no meruaile, (I ſay) if they erred in ſetting vp the frame. But what then ſhould we perſiſt in their errors? eſpecially ſhould we reiect the true patterne of Chriſts Teſtament, &c.
Thus farre be your wordes Maſter Barrow, in which the reader may ſee, that ye hauehave (as I ſay) landed thoſe godly men out of all daungers, which ſet vp the frame of our Church, becauſe they did (as you ſay) nay they could ſee no better: But our Church now can not be excuſed, becauſe ſhe hath reiected the heauenly patterne being brought. Indéede I am of this minde (to anſwere your wordes as they lye) that right excellent men come ſhort in ſome things about the ordering of Gods Church, and eſpecially at the beginning, becauſe time is a teacher: But thoſe men were not ſo blinde as you make them, or ſo vnexpert in the heauenly worke. Many of them liued long after they came out of popery. They did read the ſcriptures, both for other poynts of doctrine and for the gouernement, and all the auncient hiſtories of the Church, and (in my iudgement) might hauehave b…en able in thoſe dayes, after twenty years ſeparatiō frō popery, to ſee as much as ſome in theſe dayes that hauehave béen but foure or fine yeares from the Bowling Alleyes. Agayne, I am of this mind, that when any error in the Church appeareth, it ought (if it can bee brought to paſſe) to be reformed: And that they doo greeuouſly ſinne which reiect the truth agaynſt their knowledge and conſcience to the dammage of Gods people, but there lieth the matter howe you can proue that our Church is conuinced. We muſt ſee who they bee that hauehave layd this patterne which ye ſpeake of before her, which was not layd before thoſe bleſſed martyrs, and conuinced here let vsus come to the matter. In ſome Ceremonies, and▪ in the manner of gouernment, our Church doth differ from other Churches: Thoſe Churches (indéede) hauehave ſhewed their reaſons, why they vſe not ſuch ceremonies and gouernment: but yet they condemne not our Church, for not being perſwaded by them: for they do know that in ſome matters of controuerſie, it falleth out often, that men may thinke they hauehave truth and be deceiued, alſo that the truth may be ſhewed, and yet men that erre not conuinced in their conſcience vntounto whom it is ſhewed. This is your great ignorance (Maſter Barrow) which imagine that ſo ſoone as a truth is ſhewed in any matter, the partie that erreth is by and by conuinced in his conſcience. There were thouſands in the Church of Ieruſalem, Act. 21. which erred groſlie about the retayning the ceremoniall law, and the holy Apoſtles were driuen to beare with them, when they could not perſwade them from it, and that many yeares. And who can conuince errors like the bleſſed Apoſtles? And you muſt conſider here further, that euen thoſe marryrs in our Church whom you ſo fully cleare, had the ſame paterne layd before them then, which our Church hath had layd before her ſince: for they did know that there was another forme of gouernement vſed at Geneua, and in ſome other places, and they did not onelyonly reade their writings which ſhewed the reaſons for the ſame, but alſo ſome of them, as Biſhop Hooper, and Archdeacon Philpot, were trauailers euen to that ende and purpoſe, and liued in ſome & did ſee, if not al, yee ſome number of the reformed Churches beyond the ſeas. Moreouer, the reſt of the martyrs had here among them out of diuers reformed Churches, as Peter Martyr, Bucer, Fagius, Alaſco, and others. Howe ignorantly then, and how falſely Maſter Barrow, doo ye affirme that thoſe godly martyrs, had neuer liued in, ſeene, nor heard, of any orderly communion of Saints, any true eſtabliſhed Church? If thoſe martyrs, had the very ſame patterne layd before them which hath béene layd ſince before our Church, and were not conuinced? Peradunture you will ſay, it was nothing ſo fully and ſo clearely brought and layd it before the martyrs as it hath been layd before our Church. Then if I demaund here, who they be that hauehave more fully and more clearely layd this patterne before our Church, and thus conuinced her; whether your ſelues alone, or partly your ſelues and partly others. I ſuppoſe, yee will take it but in parte vntounto your ſelues: let vsus then begin with theſe other, and then come to you. The Church of England at the firſt (as you cōfeſſe) ſet vp the frame as they were perſwaded in conſcience to be very right and agréeable to Gods word. Since that there hath riſen controuerſie at home about ſome Ceremonies and obſeruations, and about the gouernement. Reaſons and allegations hauehave beene brought, to ſhew that there be hurtfull things amiſſe in both: and many are perſwaded. But now the viſible Church of England, the prince and all thoſe which excerciſe the chiefe power therein hauehave ſtood and doe ſtand reſolute, that the ceremonies and obſeruations are agreeable to Gods worde, or at the leaſt not contrary, but tollerable; and that gouernement is ſuch as is by Gods word moſt fit and profitable for our Church. They ſtand vponupon their reaſons and allegations for this: And many thouſands in the land. both men and women which profeſſe the Goſpel and fayth of Chriſt; either know not what the things in controuerſie, or, if they doe knowe them, yet are perſwaded that our worſhip and gouernment are right. Tell me then M. Barrow (ſeeing ye confeſſe the martyrs were not conuinced) how you know for certainetie that all theſe are conuinced in their conſcience (becauſe matters hauehave béen more fully opened) and ſo continue wilfully obſtinate againſt the knowen truth? Hath God giuen you ſome ſpeciall reuelation, or doe yee knowe the ſecrets of all mens hearts? You ſée by the Church in Ieruſalē that men may ignorantly remayne ſtill in error, if the bleſſed Apoſtles themſelues ſhould lay downe matter againſt the ſame vntounto them. But to conuince you, I may reaſon from your own wordes, for Maſter Barrow, if that be true which you holde, touching gouernment eccleſiaſticall (which is the chiefe matter in queſtion) the Church of England cannot bee conuinced by that which either our owne or men of other Churches hauehave ſet foorth. We hauehave béene perſwaded that the gouernement eccleſiaſticall ought to be by one of theſe two, that is to ſay, either by Biſhops or by preſbyteries, and you condemne both. The gouernement by Biſhops ye tearm Antichriſtian: And of thoſe which ſtand for a gouernement by Preſbyteries thus you write pag. 189. of your other booke.
Theſe men would bring in a new adulterate forged gouernement in ſhew, or rather in deſpight of Chriſts bleſſed gouernement, which they in their pride, raſhnes, ignorance and ſenſuallity of their fleſhly hearts, moſt miſerablie innon…ate corrupt and peruert. Alſo in the pag. 166. you terme it a deuiliſh forgerie. In this booke agaynſt mee you call it a preſumptuous …, yee ſay it hath no ground in the word of God but vtterly ſubuerteth the whole order and communion of the Church, &c. pag. 79.
Is it ſo Maſter Barrow, then how hath our Church béen conuinced in conſcience, by thoſe which bring no warrant of Gods word for that which they would ſet vp? being vndoubtedly perſwaded (as I hauehave ſayd) that one of the two ought to be, (a third as yet not hauing been ſhewed) how hauehave they (I ſay by your ſpeach) been ſo duely conuinced? And further it may bee ſayd, which is of great force agaynſt ye, that if all the learned men in other Churches, and thoſe in our Church which ſtand for the gouernment by preſbyteries, hauehave erre… ſo grofely as you accuſe them, why may not they that maintaine the other gouernment erre alſo of ignorance? Maſter Barrow, theſe poore ſhifts will not defend ye before God, but that ye hauehave intruded into his ſeate, vnleſſe you hauehave ſurer ground that all bee conuinced. For what if ſome ſhould be conuinced in ſome matters, yet whē they proteſt the contrary, who can iudge them but God? And now ſeeing it hath not been done by theſe, therefore it reſteth onelyonly vponupon your ſelues, let vsus come to ſee what you hauehave done. It cannot bee but you hauehave conuinced all, you hauehave opened ſo many matters. Yea but before your matters came to the ſight and knowledge of the thouſand man, (I might ſay almoſt to the ſight of any) ye had abandoned and condemned all without any order. What a conuincing is this? And when they be come abroad (I meane your writings) though not vntounto the hands of all, nor yet of the greater part, wee muſt vppon your bare word, contrary to our owne knowledge, admit many foule and falſe accuſations, we muſt vponupon your warrant allowe many fantaſticall opinions, we muſt condemne all the Churches, and iuſtifie the Donatiſts and Annabaptiſts, or els we cannot he by you conuinced. Your outragious dealing being ſuch, as almoſt hath not been ſeene, (which ſhall appeare by laying open ſomewhat of your bookes) and your groſſe errors with palpable ignorance to be wondered at euen of the vnlearned, how ſhall wee thinke that God hath ſent ye as it were great Apoſtles, to conuince and to refor me all? You ſay Chriſt hath ſent ye, but in very deede Satan in the likenes of an Angell of light hath moſt miſerably ſeduced ye. Ye ſay often that many in our Church hauehave been and are perſwaded that there be many faults; and …or not theſe then ſinne agaynſt their conſcience in as much as they ioyne ſtill with it? Maſter Barrow it is a foule hereticall opinion to hold that a man may not ioyne with that Church which holdeth and maintaineth ſome faults and errors. Did the holy Apoſtles refuſe to ioyne with the multitude in Ieruſalem, which held the Ceremonies? Doth not S. Paule labour in diuers places to ioyne them together in peace, which in ſome matters held and continued in diuers iudgement? Read the Rom. 14. and 15. for this poynt. Thus much might ſuffice to ſhewe your horrible and inexcuſable preſumption, contrary to the rules of Gods word, in condemning as quite ſeparated from Chriſt, the whole Church in the land, all particular aſſemblies, and all ſeuerall perſons both yong and old, men and women in the ſame, whom yet ye hauehave neuer ſeene, much leſſe admoniſhed and conuinced, but that your words which yet remayne vntouched (I meane of thoſe which I ſet downe) do drawe me further.
There be three things yet remayning in your former words, in which ye erre foully, whereby all men ſhall ſee, how farre off ye are from making any iuſt defence of your vngodly preſumption. And your ſelues ſhall knowe (if the Lord open your harts) that it is but a thicke couering of darknes and ignorance …nder which ye lye ſhrouded, and (as ye imagine) ſhielded from the ſinne, and from the danger of intruſion into Gods office, when ye condemne as heathen and infidels all our aſſemblies. The firſt of the thrée and the ſecond alſo are in theſe words, when ye ſay; and hereſie in that man, or in that congregation thatſo holdeth & teacheth it doth ſeparate from the faith. &c. Thus ye reaſon. If a man be in an error, and be duely conuinced, and found obſtinate, ſo that he obſtinately perſiſt in and teach his error, euen agaynſt his conſcience, wee may ſafely iudge that man to hauehave no faith, nor communion with Chriſt. The ſame is to be ſayd of a congregation, and ſo of the whole Church of England, and of all the aſſemblies therein, and of al particular members of the ſame being all in one eſtate, and condition, that is to ſay, duely conuinced, and found obſtinate. How farre wée may proceed in iudgeing a man voyd of faith, for obſtinacie, we ſhall ſee in the▪ next place… here I begin with, and note how blindly and how abſurdly in your conſequence of being conuinced, ye compare a Church and one man together. For a man erring, and his error reproued, either the whole man is conuinced, and is obſtinate, or els the whole man erreth ſtill in iguorance. But it is farre otherwiſe in a viſible Church, becauſe in it, there bee ſundry ſorts of members, which may not be all foulded vp together … one ſentence. For looke vponupon the viſible Church of Iſrael at ſuch time as our Sauiour was borne & liued vponupon the earth, and we ſhall ſee there were in it excellent godly ones, as the bleſſed Virgin, the Father and mother of Iohn the Baptiſt, Anna the Prophetiſſe, olde Symeon, and many others. There were heapes of ignorant people called the loſt ſheepe of the houſe of Iſrael: Math. 10. And there were the Scribes and Phariſies, which held and taught obſtinately, very wicked errors. It is hereby manifeſt, that ſometime it commeth to paſſe, that in a viſible Church there be which maintaine ſome errors, and it may be ſome of thē conuinced in their conſcience (which yet is known for the moſt part but to God) there be that erre of ignorance and ſimplicitie, and there bee that difallow the errors. Now what warrant is there to wrap vp all …hefe together vnderunder the ſame condemnation, and to ſay they be all ſeparated from the faith and from the Communion of Chriſt?
The ſecond error of the thrée is to bee obſerued in this, that you ſay, obſtinacie ioyned with error in a man conuinced thereof in his conſcience, doth ſeparate from the faith, and from the comunion of Chriſt. Which, to ſerue your turne agaynſt all our aſſemblies, muſt ſtand as I hauehave before ſet it downe. I take it for an vndoubted trueth, that there is no ſound faith in that man which proudly and with a full contempt of God and his trueth doth obſtinatly euen conuinced in his conſcience, hold and teach an error. But yet (Maſter Barrow) if you will ſtand to maintayne that your ſpeach, you muſt ſhake hands with Nouatus: for there be, as of other ſinnes, the remnants yea foule remnants, of obſtinacie and contempt of God and his trueth, in all the regenerate and ſanctified. Whereupon it commeth to paſſe, that as godly men doo fall into ſundrie knowne ſinnes, and willingly according to the fleſh, yea ſometime into the groſſer, and do continue in them: which cannot be but with ſome wilfull obſtinacie and contempt agaynſt God. As for examples, we hauehave Samſon that liued in fornication, Dauid that did commit adulterie and murther, Solomon that fell into Idolatrie. Theſe did knowe they ſinned, and Nathan tolde Dauid, Thou haſt deſpiſed the Lord, Thou haſt deſpiſed the word of the Lord. And alſo as it falleth out in ſome that hauehave faith, that they fall into foule actions, and the remnants of obſtinacie & wilfull contempt are ſo ſtrong in them, and the worke of grace lyeth in them as it were ſo buryed, that they not onelyonly deſpiſe priuate admonitions, but alſo for a time the iudgement and publike cenſure of the Church. As for example, the man which tooke his mother in law to be his wife, in the Church of Corinth. He did knowe euen by the light of nature that it was a foule ſinne. And though the Church neglected to caſt him forth, yet many no doubt did blame him. Notwithſtanding, he continued ſo obſtinate, that when Saint Paule had decreed his excommunication, he was caſt forth. This man in the time of his obſtinacie had faith and was in Chriſt: as it appeareth by his repentance in the ſecond Epiſtle, where Saint Paule willeth to receaue him in agayne. Euen ſo it commeth to paſſe in men regenerate, who erring in ſome opinions, which being reproued by the word of God, yet the remnants of obſtinacie and froward contempt doo make them either vnwilling to ſee any thing agaynſt that which they hauehave once holden and maintayned, or if they doo ſee, yet they will not yeeld. Now, as it is an hard thing for vsus to finde and knowe certainly that a man is conuinced of an error in his conſcience, (eſpecially when it falleth out in lighter matters which are not ſe cleerely diſenſſed by the word) though another man ſee it (as hee thinketh) plainly: ſo alſo is it moſt ungodly and without any warrant of Gods word, to ſay (when one indeed is conuinced and doth not yeeld) this man is ſeparated from the faith and from the communion of Chriſt. For if great …e…nants of wilfull obſtinacie, cannot bee in him that hath faith, then hee that wittingly and willingly (according to the fleſh) falleth into a groſſe ſinne, is by and by ſeparated from the communion of Chriſt. For if ſuch contempt and wilfull rebellion agaynſt God may ſtand one monethmonth, or one yeare with faith, what reaſon is there but that a man regenerate may lye in ſuch ſecuritie ſundrie yeares, vntill the Lord driue him out of it: For God, as a father, doth chaſtiſe his children for their wilfull obſtinacie, contempt, and rebellion, and bringeth them to repentance in his good time. Ye will ſay, if they repent, then ye acknowledge them to be in Chriſt, but while they repent not, how can a man be blamed for ſaying they hauehave no faith? You muſt knowe (Maſter Barrow) that a man is not in Chriſt becauſe he doth repent, but he repenteth becauſe he is in Chriſt. For the beginning and procéeding of repentance is all from Chriſt crucified, and onelyonly vntounto thoſe that be in him. Rom. 6. 1. Pet. 4. 1, 2. Agayne, doo not you knowe that he which is once hightened and hath imbraced the faith, if he ſinne ſuch a ſinne as doth ſeparate him from the faith, and from the communion of Chriſt, he can neuer be reſtored agayne by repentance? Then ſeeing there is no man but ſinneth willingly, and continueth with ſome obſtinacie in ſundrie things, how can you maintaine this▪ that eueryevery wilfull obſtinacie in error doth ſeparate from the faith, and from the communion of Chriſt, but that you muſt with Nouatus, cut all the regenerate from the hope of repentance, ſeeing all doo tranſgreſſe of knowledge?
Your third error is in denying the diſtinction of errors fundamentall and not fundamentall, where ye call it a papiſticall deſtinction, and gather many abſurdities, moſt fooliſhly in very deed, and not ſo much as to be repeated, becauſe they ariſe from your ignorance: for tell me Maſter▪ Barrow, Chriſt being the foundation, vponupon which all the faithfull as liuing ſtones are built, and grow together into a holy Temple: are there not errors, which if a man hold neuer ſo ignorantlie he is not in Chriſt, hee holdeth not the foundation ſo long as hee erreth in them, he is not coupled with the liuing ſtones to make one building? And on the contrary, b… there not errors which the faithfull doo erre in, and be in Chriſt? This you cannot denie, (vnleſſe you will maintaine the hereſie of perfection in the regenerate, but you ſay that with wilfull obſtinacie, the leaſt error ca…eth a man out of Chriſt. Alas poore man, may not a childe ſee your follie? When ye confeſſe there be errors, that a man may erre and dye in, and yet hold Chriſt the foundation, and ſo be ſaued: is it not as much as to ſay there be errors that are not fundamentall? If a man be conuinced in them, and hold them ſo obſtinately, that he be thereby ſeparated from Chriſt; It is not any of thoſe errors which hauehave ſeparated him (which ye confeſſe he may erre in, and yet hauehave faith) but his wicked obſtinacy and contempt, in holding and teaching them againſt his conſcience. Now therefore Maſter Barrow, and Maſter Greenewod, l… all thoſe things together which I hauehave noted touching your confuſed ignorance, errors, and abſurdities, and ſee whether yee hauehave brought any thing to cleere your ſelues from the fearefull and odious, yea moſt accurſed preſumption, by which yee take vponupon ye to abandon and forſake, as vtterly ſeparated from the faith, and from the Communion of Chriſt, all the aſſemblies of the Church of England, and all the particular members of the ſame, thē a thicke couering of darkenes, which the bright countenance of the great Iudge will pearce through and ſcatter. Ye lye in priſon, not as Chriſts poore afflicted ſeruants, but for this grieuous and outragious ſinne, which no fleſh is able to defend or mitigate, and for ſundry other abuſes, as ſhall appear by your bookes. I ſaide that the fearefull end of one Boltom, about twentie yeares paſt, would not be forgotten. You hauehave heard (as you ſay, pag. 208) that he reuolted and became a conformable member of our Church, and ſo fel into that fearefull eſtate. Seeke better information Maſter Barrow, ſeeing the example may touch ye, for the trueth is, he did for the ſame cauſes that you doo, vtterly coudemne the whole Church of England, and was with ſundry other ſeparated from it. And (as it is conſtantly affirmed) he was an elder in their ſecret Church, and ofterward falling into deepe diſpaire, he could not be recouered, but did hang himſelfe. The mat…er which preſſed him ſo ſore was this, that bee had iudged and condemned men better then himſelfe. Looke yee therefore vntounto it in time, and ſeeke repentance before the terror of God breake forth vponupon ye, and that it be to late, for it is euident vntounto all that hauehave any true light in them, that your offence herein can hauehave no excuſe or colour: beare not your ſelues vponupon other things in your bookes, for it ſhall…ppeare, that where yee thinke your ſelues moſt deuine, there Satan hath moſt deepely deluded yee, glorie not of any ſufferings▪ vnles yee will hauehave thoſe alſo to glorie which are bound in bedli….
Hauing thus finiſhed about wilfull obſtinacie, we come now to the fower principall accuſations, which ye bring againſt our Church.
The firſt is that we worſhip God after a falſe manner: our worſhip being made of the inuention of man, euen of that man of ſinne, erronious, and impoſed vponupon vsus. And here came the booke of common praier into queſtion. I did drawe your accuſation into a Sillogiſme: and you accuſe me to be ſo full of legiet d… main, that ye had neede to looke to my fingers, for ye ſay I hauehave left out certaine of your words, as namely theſe (wilfully obſtinate, and impoſed.) Touthing theſe words, wilfully obſtinate, looke Maſter Barrow in the fourth and fift pages of my booke, and ſee whether I did not anſwer them where you hauehave expreſſely ſet them downe; looke alſo vponupon your own booke now printed▪ and you ſhall finde, that both in the accuſation you hauehave omitted theſe words (wilfully abſtinate) and alſo paſſed by mine anſwer vntounto them. Now when theſe two, that is, the omitting the words, and paſſing by the anſwer vntounto them doo concurre, here is a great ſhew of legier du maine on your part, and yet you would lay it vponupon me, that hauehave not giuen the leaſt ſuſpitiō therof. And for the word impoſed▪ you ſay I leaue it out, and put &c. in the place thereof. I doo indeede ſetdowne &c, for theſe words, erronious and impoſed vponupon them, but doo I leaue them out in handling the matter? Looke in the tenth page, and ſee whether I doo not charge ye with an Annabaptiſticall freedome (which ye are not able to auoyde) for this worde impoſed? Maſter Barrow looke vppon them, learne modeſtie, and bluſh, if not for conſcience, yet that theſe things muſt now lie open to the view of the world.
And for the booke of common Praier, although the queſtion betwéene vsus, was not whether there bee faultes in it, but whether it …e (as you tearme it) a great pregnant Idoll, full of hereſies, blaſphemies & a bominations? whether there be any hereſies in it? And whether the beſt part of it be none other but a peece of ſwines fleſh, an abomination to the Lord? Yet you charge me as flying the trial by the word of God: when I ſtand to iuſtifie by the word of God, that in deede there is neither Idolatrie, hereſie, nor blaſphemie in it, much leſſe that it is full of them, or the beſt part an abhomination. For in mine anſwers and defence, I doo not vndertake▪ to cleare it of all faults (hauing no occaſion to meddle in that controuerſie) but to ſhew that there are no ſuch faultes, but that both the faithfull people of God hauehave and mayerre in, & alſo euen chriſtian gouernours and teachers, which are to reforme the church, & that if any doo ſee and be perſwaded that they be corruptions and faultes, yet not of that qualitie or degree, as that they may for the ſame ſeparate themſelues from the fellowſhip of thoſe which art otherwiſe minded: this is the thing which I hauehave taken vponupon mee to defend. And if you (Maſter Barrow) wil not become a ranke heretick, (as if it pleaſe God you ſhall not) to maintaine this opinion, that we may not ioyne in that worſhip, where wee finde any imperfections and errors holden, and not reformed: why doo you with wonderment crie out, that this ſo large an exception of imperfections, is the odde and onelyonly exception that euer you heard of. And doo you in very deede Maſter Barrow thinke that no ſuch exception is to bee made, but that where any error doth appeare in the worſhip, a man is to ſeparate himſelfe? Nay you will ſay when it is reproued and continued in, and not reformed, then a man is to forſake that Church as vtterly fallen from the couenant of God. For they be obſtinate and denie reformation.
Tell me then, what if thoſe that be to reforme, be perſwaded it is no error? What if a great part of the multitude be ſo perſwaded, that it is no fault, and ſo bee of diuerſe mindes? Will you deeme that you hauehave more ſkill to conuince them, then the Apoſtles had? Or will you refuſe to ioyne, as the Apoſtles did ioyne with the Church in Ieruſalem, that held and continued in a groſſe error? Doo you not ſee how by this your doctrine, you open the doore as wide vntounto all Schiſmaticks, as euer did the Donatiſts or the Annabaptiſts, ſeeing there will euer be errors, and ſome that cannot be made to ſee them? Will you not ſee how you contrarie Saint Paule directly, who in whole chapters almoſt (as I hauehave noted before) dooth labour nothing elſe but to perſwade the Chriſtians that held diuers opinions touching ſome things in Gods worſhip, yet to ioyne together? Rom. 14. and 15. what a multitude of words, with your accuſtomed reuilings and ſlanders hauehave you here heaped vp? But I will deale onelyonly with that which is not anſwered alreadie.
You charged our Church with Romiſh faſts. I charged you with fal…e accuſing: becauſe the Church of Rome, moſt wickedly againſt the Croſſe of Chriſt, placeth the worſhip of God, and the merite of eternall life in faſting, which doctrine our Church vtterly condemneth. You labour to ſhew faultes in our faſts, what is that now to the purpoſe? And ſo in diuers other things, is this the queſtion betweene vsus?
You charge vsus with idoll feaſtes, as if wee worſhipped Saints and Angels. I told you it is a ſtarke lie, and ſo I muſt affirme, our Church vtterly condemning all that moſt blaſphemous doctrine of popery, touching the meditation of Saints or Angels: here againe you deale but euen as in the former, you muſt not ſtill ſo boldly ſlander, but proue that the dayes are kept in honour of the Saints and Angels. And ſo for the naming of the Churches. I knowe Saint Luke did not in any reſpect honour Mars: and ſo did not contrarie to that which Dauid profeſſeth, ſaying he would not take the names in his mouth: you may ſee by his example, how Dauid is to be vnderſtoode, not of the very naming, but of the naming with ſome honor, for a man may name them either in deteſtation, or as Saint Luke dooth onelyonly to make deſtinction.
Then come tithes and oblations: here in deede Maſter Barrow you bid me looke whether this error be not fundamentall, being obſtinately held, and bring for your reaſon, that they which reuiue any part of the ceremoniall lawe are bound to the whole lawe, and ſo are (as Paule ſaith to the Galathians) aboliſhed from Chriſt. Truely Maſter Barrow, the more I reade of your writings, the more I pittie your blindnes.
I could not hauehave beene perſwaded, that you were ſo exceeding ignorant, taking vponupon you to controule all Churches, and farre to excell all the moſt learned deuines: neither could it enter into my thought, that any would ſo boldly abuſe the holy Scriptures, to ſeduce and ſubuert the mindes of ſimple men. I doo here alſo intreate the reader to be atte…tiue a little▪ and to ſee vponupon what foundation you doo builde a great part of your dooings. For here to proue the paying of tithes an error fundamentall, and vtterly to ſeparate from Chriſt being obſtinately held: you alleage the words of Saint Paule, Galath. 5. I teſtifie againe vntounto eueryevery man which is circūciſed, that he is deptor to keepe the whole lawe: yee are aboliſhed from Chriſt, &c. Let me firſt aſke ye then, were the fathers which were circumciſed in the time of y• law, aboliſhed from Chriſt, and fa…en from grace? You will ſay no, for circumciſion was a ſeale of the righteouſnes of faith, Rom. 4. Then it muſt needes be graunted that Saint Paule doth not ſpeak here of circumciſiō in the right vſe, for which God did ordeine it, for ſo it was not cōtrary vntounto Chriſt, albeit the retaining of it after Chriſt come, was an error. Alſo let me aſke ye further, doo you thinke that Saint Paule was contrarie to himſelfe, when he circumciſed Timothie, Acts 16. ver. 3. Or after that, when he would with thoſe which had a vow be purified, and offer an oblation according to the lawe? Act. 21. 26. will you ſay that Saint Paule and Timothie became deptors to keepe the whole lawe? Or that they were aboliſhed from Chriſt? It is horror to admit any thought that way, or once to make doubt of ſuch a matter▪ Neither would Iames and the other Apoſtles hauehave ſuffered or tolerated the Church in Ieruſalem, in that which dooth aboliſh from Chriſt. Whereupon it followeth of neceſſity, that Saint Paule here to the Galathians, dooth not ſpeake ſimply of the ceremonie of circumciſion: but as it was vrged with the doctrine of the falſe Apoſtles, which was this, that circumciſion was a neceſſary part of Gods worſhip, and that men could not bee ſaued vnles they were circumciſed: for ſo did the falſe Apoſtles vrge it, as ye may ſee, Act. 15. 1. placing righteouſnes and the merite of eternalllife in it, for againſt that Saint Paule ſpeaketh here to the Galathians, ſaying, as many as are iuſtified by the lawe, are aboliſhed from Chriſt, & fallenfrom grace. Here is the thing then, that the falſe Apoſtles did ioyne the law and Chriſt together for iuſtification: and Saint Paule teſtifieth and denounceth, that he which is circumciſed with ſuch a minde, as to be iuſtified in part thereby, hée is debtor to kéepe the whole law, which is not poſſible for any fleſh, and therefore he ſhall ſtand vnderunder the curſe. Moreouer he is aboliſhed from Chriſt, and fallen from grace, becauſe the iuſtification by grace, and the iuſtification by the law, are ſo contrarie, that they cannot be ioyned together: he that will holde any thing of the one, muſt forgoe the other. This being the thing which Saint Paule ſpeaketh of the Galathians, and not the very ceremonies which both he and Timothie did ſometime obſerue, nor yet the error of the Church of Ieruſalem, which was not to place the worſhip of God and righteouſneſſe in them (which the holy Apoſtles would neuer hauehave borne withall, ſeeing it ouerthroweth the faith of Chriſt) marke well Maſter Barrowe (or if you will be wilfull let others marke) how fooliſhly, and yet with what furious terror, ye thunder out the aboliſhing from Chrſt, for paying tithes, and for the obſeruation of ſome ceremonies, in which, if there be a fault, it is ſo farre from that which the falfe Apoſtles went about to ſeduce the Galathians in, that it commeth ſhort of the error of the Church of Ieruſalem. For the Church of England (as all men may ſée) dooth condemne fully and abſolutely, not onelyonly that doctrine of the falſe Apoſtles, and of the Church of Rome, touching iuſtification or merite of words, but alſo teacheth the whole law of ceremonies was to ceaſe, now Chriſt being come. Ceaſe therefore Maſter Barrow this fooliſh rage, and labour not to ſeduce the people, deceiuing, and being deceiued, as the bleſſed Apoſtle ſpeaketh. Ye obſerue dayes and times, months, and yeares (ſaith Saint Paule to the Galathians) I am afraide of ye, least I hauehave laboured among ye in vaine. If ye be circumciſed, Christ ſhall profit ye nothing.
The Church of England (ſay you) obſerueth dayes and times, as Eaſter, Whitſonday, &c. and payethtithes, and obſerueth other ceremonies, therefore Chriſt can profit yee nothing, ye are aboliſhed from Chriſt, ye are fallen from the couenant of grace, in as much as ye obſtinately holde and continue in them.
Is it not much to bee lamented, that after ſo many yeares preaching of the Goſpell, much people ſhould lie open to bee fpoyled by ſuch poore ſeely ſtuffe as this, and bee led away by ſuch more then ſottiſh ignorance? Cannot men ſée that the who…e matter lieth in the diuers endes of obſeruation? The falſe Apoſtls, the Church in Ieruſalem, Paul and Timothy, doo obſerue the ſelfe ſame things, that is Circumciſion and other ceremonies of the lawe: The falſe Apoſtles are aboliſhed from Chriſt, as they vrge and obſerue them: The Church of Ieruſalem is not aboliſhed from Chriſt, but yet erreth groſely, Saint Paul and Timothie ſinne not at all thereby. What is the reaſon of this difference, but that as ye may ſee, the falſe Apoſtles obſerued and vrged the ceremonies as meritorious for iuſtification, and therefore the Epiſtle to the Galathians is ſpent in declaring the righteouſnes by fayth, and ouerthrowing the righteouſnes by the law. The Church in Ieruſalem obſerued the ceremonies not placing righteouſnes in them, but to the end that God had ordayned them, to ſhadow out heauenly things, being ignorant in this that they were ordayned but vntounto the time of correction, as the holy Ghoſt ſpeaketh, Hebr. 9. And therfore in that Epiſtle to the Hebrues there is no charging or blaming of them, touching the matter of iuſtification, but onelyonly a reducing of them from that fore ſayd error in which they did ſtick … long. When Saint Paule ſpeaketh of obſeruing the ceremonies, which was but at ſometimes, as occaſion fell out, … ſo farre from deeming it a fault, that hee reckoneth it among his vertues: and ſayth, to thoſe that are vnderunder the lawe, I became as if I were vnderunder the law, that I might win thoſe that are vnderunder the law. 1. Cor. 9. The Synagogue of Antichriſt in more haynous and deteſtable manner then the falſe Apoſtles, againſt the Croſſe of Chriſt, euen againſt the righteouſnes by fayth in his blood, obſerue dayes and times, and a number of ceremonies of their owne inuention, by which they ſeeke remiſſion of … and the merite of eternalllife. Our Church doth renounce and accurſe all ſuch doctrine, neither doe we maintaine any Iudaiſme. And touching the paying of tithes, (that I may conclude this poynt) if I ſay there might bee ſomewhat morall in it, though it were annexed to the L…uiticall Prieſthood, I doe not ſee how you ſhall be able to diſprooue the ſame.
In the viſitation of the ſick, there is a forme of abſolution ſet downe. Thus you (Maſter Barrow) write agaynſt it: Let the Reader vnderſtand, that nothing can be more popiſh and blaſphemousthen it is: wherein a ſacrilegious prieſt taketh vponupon him, by the authoritie committed vntounto him, to abſolue the ſick from all his ſinnes. Hath any mortall man power to forgiue ſinnes? Or is it not the office of God alone? Hath the prieſt power to forgiue all ſinnes, ſuch as are not made vntounto him? what horrible blaſphemie is this? to him that hath power to forgiue all ſinnes, to him we may make our prayers and ſupplications, him onelyonly may we worſhip. Hath the greateſt miniſter of the Church any more power to retayne or looſe the ſinne of the leaſt member, then the ſayd member hath to binde or looſe his ſinne? Doth not this rule of our Sauiour Chriſt, as well extend vntounto him as vntounto the leaſt in the Church, If thy brother ſinne agaynſt thee, rebuke him, and if hee repent, forgiue him? Luke. 17. 3. Hath not the Church▪ power to reprooue and caſt out their Paſtor if he deſerue? Is not all this binding and looſing done by the worde of God, and not by any power or excellencie of man? Hath not the word of God the like power and effect againſt ſinne in the mouth of the leaſt of Gods ſeruants, as in the mouth of the greateſt? Let this collect then (whereby the prieſt in their leiturgie by the power committed to him abſolueth the ſick of all his ſinnes) remaine one witnes (among many other) of their popery, and vntill more come of moſt high blaſphemie.
Thus farre be your wordes Maſter Barrow. Then this abſolution (you ſay) nothing can be more popiſh or blaſphemous, you cry out at it as horrible blaſphemie: And will hauehave this collect remaine as one witnes of moſt high blaſphemie. If it be ſo, I hauehave done you great wrong by charging you as falſe accuſers: But in very deede while you go about to make ye Reader vnderſtāo that nothing can be more popiſh or blaſphemous, yea, that it is horrible and moſt high blaſpe…ie, you bewray ſo darke ignorance and confuſion, as I think wee may tearme deepe & horrible, as ſhal appeare by the reaſons you bring. But now for this abſolution, take this by the way, that I doo not vndertake to diſpute vponupon, or to iuſtifie eueryevery circumſtance thereof, as namely the vndiſ…reet and vnſkilfull dealing of ſome that may practize it; but onelyonly deale about the ſubſtance of the matter it ſelfe, againſt which your reaſons are brought, to prooue it to be popery and blaſphemie.
You aſke firſt, Hath any mortall man power to forgiue ſinnes? or whether it be not Gods office alone? Why Maſter Barrow, will you denie that mortall men hauehave power to forgiue ſinnes? doth not our Sauiour Chriſt ſay vntounto his Apoſtles, Whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall forgiue, they are forgiuen, and whoſe ſins ye ſhall retayne, they are retayned? Ioh. 20. ver. 23. Dare you contradict the flat teſtimonie of the ſcripture? And for your other queſtion, it is moſt certayne, and the contrary cannot bee held without blaſphemie and ſacriledge, that God onelyonly hath power and authority to forgiue ſinnes, if we reſpect the author of forgiuenes: And men doo but in his name, and from him as miniſters, bring the ſame vntounto vsus. If wee reſpect the thing i… ſelfe, it is peculiar vntounto the moſt high God: but the miniſtrie is his hand, by which he reacheth it foorth vntounto vsus, and therefore they bringing the meſſage and word of reconciliation, are adorned with this title, that they forgiue, and retayne ſinnes: yet … is but inſtrumentall. It is moſt vndoubted that God alone doth begethis Children by the immortall ſeede of his worde: And yet Saint Paul ſayth to the Corinthians, that he was their Father, and that he begat them. All this is but miniſteriall, God is robbed of no honour.
You demaund, whether the prieſt hath power to forgiue all ſinnes, ſuch as are not made vntounto him? I anſwere that the miniſter of the Goſpel, is the miniſter of reconciliation, (I meane to bring it) and hath power to forgiue all ſinnes annexed to his miniſtrie, or rather it is the fruite and effect and power of his miniſtrie, in deliuering the promiſes. You ſeeme to ſpeake of forgiuing of treſpaſſes which are done againſt our ſelues, which declareth alſo your want of ſkill: as namely that you know not what this is, whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall forgiue, they that are forgiuen. We may make our prayers vntounto him, & worſhip him only, that hath power to forgiue all ſinnes. This is true, if we looke to the author of this grace, which is God alone: But not when we looke to thoſe which are but miniſters, and the earthen veſſels in which this treaſure is brought.
You aſke, whether the greateſt miniſter in the Church, hathanie more power to retayne or looſe the ſinne of the leaſt member, then the ſayd member hath to binde or looſe his ſinnes? And then you bring certaine reaſons to prooue that he hath not any more power then the leaſt member. Is it not a ſtraunge thing (Maſter Barrow) that ſuch geare ſhould come from you? will you take away the whole efficacie and power of the miniſtrie which Chriſt hath ordayned? By the miniſters of the Goſpell (as I ſayd before) God ſendeth the word of reconciliation, they be his hand, by which he doth reach it foorth vntounto vsus: when they preach the glad tidings, or deliuer the promiſe of free pardon vntounto all that ſhall beleeue in Chriſt crucified, and deliuer the ſeales of the doctrine, euen Baptiſme and the holy Supper: God doth accompanie the miniſtration of theſe things, by his ſpirit, & ſo dooth ratifie the ſame. For which cauſe the miniſtrie of the Goſpell is called the miniſtrie of the ſpirit. 2. Cor. 3. The ſpirit of the Lord giueth vsus our freedome by looſing the bonds of our ſinnes, when through faith wee lay hold of the promiſe. And hee that beleeueth not is ſtill bound. Then when Chriſt ſayth, Whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall forgiue, they are forgiuen, and whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall retaine, they are retained. This is the ſenſe, that to thoſe whom God doth ſend (publiſhing the Goſpell, and ſetting to the ſeales in thoſe which imbrace it, and ſo bringing free pardon of ſinnes) he doth communicate this honour which belongeth to himſelfe, that they are ſayd to forgiue ſinnes.
As I ſayd before, he giueth away nothing herein from himſelfe, becauſe it is not giuen vntounto them as to the authors of the pardon, but as to the inſtruments and miniſters, by whome hée doth reach it foorth, as by his hand, and by whoſe miniſtrie hee doth ratifie y• ſame vntounto vsus. Likewiſe whē they denounce iudgment agaynſt the impenitent, he doth confirme it. What do you tell vsus then of that rule of admoniſhing and pardoning? Luk. 17. Theſe be things differing. It is alſo very true that the power of binding and looſing is wholly from the word, not depending vppon the excellencie of any man: and that the dignitie and power of the word (if wee reſpect it in it ſelfe) is all one, out of whoſe mouth ſo euer. But yet (Maſter Barrow) you ſhould know…, that it is Gods ordinance and good pleaſure, to giuegive a ſpecial operation and power vntounto it by the miniſtrie. Baptiſme doth ſeale vp the forgiuenes of our ſinnes, and hath he not ordayned, that this ſeale ſhalbe ſet to by ye miniſtry? I would you ſaw how …old your ignorāce hath made you, euen agaynſt Gods ordinance, as to giuegive no more efficacie vntounto the word in the mouth of the mo…t excellent miniſter, then in the mouth of any true Chriſtian.
Your other demaund is to no purpoſe, ſeeing nothing do…th binde or looſe, but onelyonly the word, and the binding or looſing by men, is no more, but when men by authoritie from God, in a miniſtrie which hee dooth ratifie, pronounce remiſſion of ſinnes or iudgement, rightly according to the word, as the word pronounceth. Shall we then beleeue, that eueryevery true Chriſtian hath the ſame and equall power of binding and looſing that Paule or Peter had? You ſay ſo, and would prooue it, and not onelyonly hauehave here ſet downe your blinde reaſons, but in your other booke (which you entitle a briefe diſcouerie of the falſe Church) and in the page 124. You ſay that by the place Iohn 20. wee cannot prooue this power of binding and looſing to bee giuen onelyonly to the Apoſtles, there being many diſciples both men and women in the place when Chriſt gaue it. This appearing indeed of our Sauiour was the ſame day at night in which hee roſe from the dead, as the Euangeliſts do expreſſely declare. It is plaine alſo by S. Luke 24. 33. that there were ſome other with the Apoſtles when he appeared vntounto them. But yet (Maſter Barrow) conſider the place well, and if there be any forehead remayning, it will make you bluſh a little at your owne bolde ſpeach, when you ſay that to challenge the power of binding and looſing, as giuen or annexed to the miniſtrie, by theſe words, whoſe ſinnes ye remit, &c. is by an old worthles title. For was the Commiſſion of the Apoſtleſhip giuen vntounto all that were there, both men and women? Becauſe you ſay; There were both men and women there beſides the Apoſtles, and that he gaue the power of binding and looſing vntounto them all alike: and ſayd vntounto them all, whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall remit, they are remitted▪ &c.
Marke all his words together. Agayne, Peace be with ye, as the father hath ſent me, ſo I ſend you. And when he had ſaid this, he breathed vponupon them, and ſayd, receaue the holy Ghoſt. Whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall remit, they are remitted, and whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall retaine, they are retained. Did he ſay to all there preſent, yea euen to the women, as the father hath ſent me, ſo I ſend you? I pray ye whether ſent he the women vponupon that meſſage vponupon which he was ſent by the father? Theſe former words are onelyonly to the Apoſtles vponupon whome hee layeth the charge, or the ambaſſage which his father had committed vntounto him. As Paule 2. Cor. 5. declareth that the Apoſtles were Ambaſſadors from GOD in Chriſts ſtead. If you will ſhame then to ſay that Chriſt layd the charge which the father committed to him vponupon the women (as you ſay there were ſome women there, and it is not vnlike) or if you dare not affirme that the women are ſent vponupon this ambaſſage to be Apoſtles, which is in theſe former words, as the father ſent me, ſo I ſend you, how dare you ſay the latter words are ſpoken vntounto all? For to thoſe onelyonly he ſayth, receaue the holy Ghoſt: whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall remit, they are remitted. To whom he had ſayd, As the father hath ſent me ſo I ſend you. And tell me Maſter Barrow, is there not ſome part of this power of looſing or remitting ſinnes by the Sacraments? I meane, do… not the Sacraments effectually ſeale vntounto vsus the remiſſion of ſinnes? And is that power committed to any but Miniſters? Hath God giuen a power to the Miniſters aboue other to ſet to the ſeales, and no power aboue others in deliuering the word of the couenant which is ſealed? It is no meruaile that you dare goe about to ouerthrowe all the power of the Miniſtrie of the Goſpell (which Saint Paule ſetteth foorth to be ſo glorious, 2. Cor. 3.) in affirming that the greateſt Miniſter hath no more power to binde the leaſt member, then the ſayd member hath to binde him: when you are thus groſly ignorant, as to affirme that our Sauiour ſpake thoſe words vntounto women, Whoſe ſinnes ye ſhall forgiue. &c. Ioh. 20. and ſee not that God hath ratified a power of deliuering the word and Sacraments by a miniſtrie, which hee vſeth as his hand reached foorth vntounto vsus. They that will further and more fully ſee into this wicked error of yours, muſt looke vponupon that which the learned hauehave written agaynſt the Swinckfeldians, about the ſame.
And now (Maſter Barrow) to come to the very poynt indeed that is in controuerſie betweene you and me. I wiſhed that you were as weary of lying and ſlandering, as you ſhould bee in ſeeking vntill you ſhould finde one blaſphemie or hereſie in all the Collects of the booke: and therefore you hauehave here gathered together a whole packe. You tell me firſt, that I hauehave in remembrance the Collect wherein the Prieſt by the authoritie committed vntounto him, doth abſolue the ſick of all his ſinnes. Indeed you tolde vsus that this is moſt high blaſphemie, and that nothing can be more popiſh. But learne you Maſter Barrow, by the Scripture, and remember that God hath giuen a power to the miniſtrie of the Goſpell to forgiue ſinnes. The power indeede is but miniſteriall, and ſo the booke it ſelfe declareth, where it ſayth: He hath giuen power and commandement to his ministers, to declare and pronounce to his people being penitent, the abſolution and remiſſion of their ſinnes. Other power in the miniſter to forgiue ſinnes then this, the booke alloweth none. How the Pope doth challenge this power to himſelfe as head, and how from him it muſt be deriued vntounto all Miniſters, how farre alſo he hath extended it, and how horribly and blaſphemouſly he hath abuſed it, I will not ſtand to ſhewe.
Then next, you ſay, I muſt not forget the two Collects ſayd ouer our dead brother. The one in which we ſay that God of his merciemercy hath taken away the ſoule of our brother, &c. This is not ment but where the partie dieth in the profeſſion of the faith and repentance, nor yet abſolutely to pronounce him ſaued, but in a charitable manner of ſpeach to iudge of him as he profeſſed. I doo not take it the meaning of the booke, that it ſhould be vttered of ſuch as make no profeſſion of the holy faith, (for why then ſhould he be called a brother?) or vponupon whome God doth ſhewe his fearefull iudgement, if it be otherwiſe, it may be a fault, but not blaſphemie.
The other is, that we pray for the ſoule of our brother departed: where we ſay, that wee with this our brother and all other departed in the true faith, may hauehave our perfect conſummation and bliſſe both in body and ſoule. Prayer for the dead is a groſſe error, but yet not ſimply in it ſelfe an hereſie, or blaſphemie, and our Church dooth vtterly condemne it as a groſſe error. And therefore Maſter Barrow, you do ſtill but belye the booke, which directeth herein to pray onelyonly for our ſelues liuing, and not for the dead. For if the mention of receiuing bliſſe with that brother departed, were to pray for him, then ſhould it be meant that wée would alſo pray for the ſoules of Abraham, Iſaack and Iaakob, of the Prophets and Apoſtles, becauſe they are included, in theſe words, with all other departed in the true faith.
In the third place you are ſo kinde, that as you ſay, to helpe my memorie a little further, you will mee to conſider better of that glorious Anthem which wee ſay at our Communion, that we with Angels and Archangels and all the companie of heauen lawd and magnifie. &c. Here you will not demaund how wee remaining in the fleſh, can hauehave ſuch familiar conuerſation with thoſe heauenly Souldiers, that together with them wee can praiſe God. You will not demaund, (that is, you doo in a fine retoricall ſort demaund it) but the finenes of this retoricke will not couer the ſottiſhnes of your ignorance. For albeit men in earth hauehave not familiar conuerſation with Angels, yet they prayſe God together with them, in as much as both men and Angels do lawd and magnifie him. And therefore the Prophet Pſal. 103. calling vppon all things to prayſe the Lord, ioyneth the Angels, ſaying: Praiſe the Lord ye Angels which are ſtrong in power. Reade alſo for this, the firſt chapter of the Reuel verl. 12, 13, 14. Then you will not preſſe vsus with papiſticall ſpeculations of making degrees of Angels and Archangels. &c. In very deede you cannot but with falſehood preſſe our Church with that. But you demaund how many Archangels we reade of and finde in the Scriptures, and whether wee knowe of any more heads of Angels then Chriſt himſelfe?
We knowe and conſtantly profeſſe that there is but one head of Angels which is Chriſt. And we condemne the popiſh curioſitie in ſearching into the degrees and orders of Angels, which is not learned out of the holy Scriptures, but from that counterfeit Dioniſius Areopagita. And if that Michael the Archangel which ſtroue with the diuell about the body of Moſes, and durſt not giuegive rayling ſentence were Chriſt: yet S. Paule ſpeaketh of an Archangell beſides Chriſt, when he ſayth: The Lord himſelf ſhal come downe from heauen with the voyce of the Archangell, and with the trumpe of God. 1. Theſſ. 4. verſ. 16. What blaſphemie then (Maſter Barrow) is there in the booke, which ſpeaketh but as the Scripture, and you may ſee plainly that, to be a chiefe Angell, or an Archangell, is not to be the head of Angels? The ſainctifying the floud Iordain, and all other waters to the myſticall waſhing away of ſinne, is none other way to be taken, then to ſay that bread and wine are ſainctified to repreſent the body and bloud of Chriſt. All the creatures of God are ſainctified to our vſe, as the bleſſed Apoſtle ſpeaketh.
Touching Michael and all Angels, we do not worſhip Angels, nor yet make Chriſt a creature. You ſay that in the Letanie, there is prayer for all that trauaile by ſea or by land, for all that be ſicke, for all ſicke perſons: therefore we pray for Gods enemies, for the breach of all order, and deſtruction both of Church and common wealth. This is but a vayne collection, when prayer is intended for ſuch as are prayed for, that they may be turned from their euill. Alſo when this word all is vſed, it goeth with this reſtraint, all that belong vntounto God, for ſo is Saint Paule to be alſo reſtrayued vntounto all ſorts of men which belong vntounto God, when he willeth to pray for al men. 1. Tim. 2.
You demaund where wee learne to pray agaynſt lightning and thunder, tempeſt, plague, famine, battaile, &c. when there is no preſent feare or danger thereof?
Then it ſeemeth by your words that wée may intreate the Lord to turne away none of his grieuous and feareful plagues, but when they be vponupon vsus? We ſée there are euer anon ſome which are ſtricken with thunder: and when the clap is paſt, it is too late to pray for them. Againe, the praiers of the Church are for all the true members thereof whereſoeuer: and if wee our ſelues bee not in this preſent neede, yet others are, and wée may be, if God turne not a way his diſpleaſure: theſe praiers are not to reſtraine the Lord the vſe of his creatures, or that he ſhould not by them deſtroy his enemies, theſe bee no ſound collections. Unles you will argue thus, the Lord afflicteth his Church by perſecutions, by famine and peſtilence, &c. for their good, and for the glory of his owne name: therefore the church ought not to pray to be deliuered from thoſe things. Wée are willed to be alwaies ready for death, and ſuddaine death cannot preuent any one of the faithfull I doo confeſſe. But yet wée eſtéeme it a great comfort & a great bleſſing for ſundry reſpects to be warned before, when wée ſhall depart out of this world, and a thing which we couet, and I ſee no reaſon why we may not, for ſuch reſpects craue it of the Lord. You would make men beleeue that we coniure Chriſt by his incarnation, by his natiuitie, baptiſme, faſting and temptation, by his agony and bloudy ſweat, by his Croſſe and paſſion, &c. When we pray to be deliuered by them, hath not our Sauiour dotte theſe things for our deliuerance? And did he not deliuer vsus by them? What blaſphemie, hereſie, or coniuration is there then in this praier, as to ſay deliuer vsus by thy precious death and paſſion? You aſke where we learned to pray for our forefathers offences? I anſwer that wée reade that the Lord will viſit the ſinnes of the Fathers vponupon the Children: and therefore we deſire the Lord not to remember the ſinnes of the forefathers, to bring puniſhmēt vpō vsus. It is a blinde collection whē any gather herby that we pray for the dead, that their ſinnes may be forgiuen them. Theſe then bée the blaſphemies and hereſies which you Maſter Barrow doo accuſe the booke of, to ſhew that you did not lye and ſlander: but how well you hauehave acquit your ſelfe, let all thoſe iudge which hauehave any ſobrietie. And now touching this that you did affirme the beſt part of the booke to be but as a péece of ſwines fleſh, and abomination to the Lord: you goe about to defend your wicked ſpéech by the abuſe, which I told you before could be none anſwer: for the things are holy in themſelues, although coniurers and Papiſts abuſe them neuer ſo much. Touching the Lords Praier, we deale about it in the queſtiō of read praier. For the articles of the faith, you wold know what profe by Scripture we can make for that blaſphemous Article, that Chriſt deſcended into hell? Alſo in your other booke page 76. theſe be your words: Their forged patcherie, commonly called the Apoſtles Creede or Symbole, Athanaſius Creede, the Nycen Creede. Let the world iudge what cauſe you hauehave to glory in your ſufferings: and whether ye be not liker Rabſaka, (who boaſted alſo that God ſent him againſt Ieruſalem) then any of the holy Martyrs of Chriſt. Is there any Chriſtian eare but will abhorre this beaſtly ſpéech, when you terme the Articles of our faith, a forged patchery? And doo you not I ſay, euen as a very Rabſaka moſt wickedly reproach all Churches, both of old and in theſe dayes. Athanaſius Créed, which is the Nycen Créed is drawne from the word? It is the ſumme of the moſt glorious faith, concerning the bleſſed Trinitie, and ſome other Articles, which all true Churches and Chriſtians hauehave euer profeſſed, and doo profeſſe. And for the Apoſtles Créede, if it were not in the time of the Apoſtles, yet was it preſently after, that confeſſion or proſeſſion of the faith, which eueryevery one of yeres made, which was admitted to receaue the holy baptiſme.
It is eueryevery part drawne expreſſely but of the ſacred writings of the Prophets and Apoſtles. And for that one article of Chriſts deſcending into hell, it is not blaſphemous, nor yet hath in it any error, vnleſſe it be miſunderſtoote. The Papiſts are very groſſe in it, and fabulous, touching his deſcending to fetch out the ſouies of the pacriarches. Others doo hold that our Sauiour in ſoule after his paſſion deſcended into hell, though to no ſuch purpoſe: this is not blaſphemie nor hereſie. The place of Scripture which ſeemeth to warrant that his ſoule deſcended into hell, is in Pſalme 16. Thou ſhalt not leaue my ſoule in hell, neither ſhalt thou ſuffer thine holy one to ſee corruption. Scheol doth ſignifie both hell and the graue, and in this place (ſay they which hold that his ſoule deſcended) it muſt néedes be taken for hell, becauſe the ſoule goeth not into the graue. Yet becauſe Nepheſh may be diuerſely taken, as it is vſed ſundrie times in Moſes for the dead bodie, as alſo that it dooth ſignifie the vitall ſpirit, and ſo it is no abſurditie to ſay after a manner of ſpeech, that the life is ſhut vp in the graue ſo long as the body remaineth there: hereupon ſome doo expounde theſe words, he deſcended into hell, to be no more but thus, hee went downe into the graue. And whereas the order of the articles ſeemeth to ouerthrowe this expoſition, becauſe it is ſaid, he was dead, buried, and deſcended into hell: they expound this clauſe, (he was buried) he was inbaulmed, as it is ſaid when the woman powred the precious oyntment vponupon him, that ſhe did it to burie him, Matth. 26. Nicodemus brought Mirre and Aloes: this dreſſing of the dead body, ſay they, was of the Iewes called buriall: and the putting into the graue, deſcending into hell. Others doo take it, that deſcending into hell is meant, that he remained in the ſtate of the dead. Others that in his ſoule while he was vponupon the Croſſe, he ſuffered the torments of hell, as it is moſt certaine he did. Now Maſter Barrow, ſeeing the words be in the Scripture (thou ſhalt not leaue my ſoule in hell) and the matter reſteth onelyonly vponupon the expoſition, what immodeſt and intemporate heat, or rather furiouſe outrage is this, to crie out of a blaſphemous article, and to terme the articles of our faith, our forged patcherie?