Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 27
The 27. article conteyneth 5. demandes.
1 Moreouer let any man proue vntounto me, that the true & onelyonly Church of God, may at any time be voyd of God his ſpirite.
THe true and onelyonly Church of Chriſt, can neuer be voyd of God his ſpirite, and yet ſhe may erre from the truth, and be deceiued, in ſome thinges, euen as there is no true Chriſtian man that is voyd of God his ſpirite, for he that hath not the ſpirite of Chriſt, is none of his. Rom. 8. yet may eueryevery true Chriſtian erre, and be deceaued in ſome things, according to the ſaying of the Scripture, eueryevery man is a lyar. Wherefore the whole Church militant conſiſting of men, which are all lyars, may erre all togither, as eueryevery part thereof, although neither the whole Church nor any true member thereof be voyd of God his ſpirite.
2 Or falſely interprete any ſentence of holy Scripture.
THis gentle offer muſt needes be taken, I will proue vntounto you, that the church of Rome, hath falſely interpreted diuers ſentences of ſcripture, and therefore by that which ſhe hath done, it cannot be doubted but that ſhe may do it. S. Auguſtine was in this error, that he thought Infantes muſt receiue the ſacrament of the body and bloude of Chriſt, vnderunder paine of damnation, and was deceiued by falſe interpretation of this ſcripture: Except ye eate the fleſhe of the Sonne of man and drinke his bloude &c. Ioan. 6. This error and falſe interpretation, he affirmeth to be common to all the Weſterne church, & to Pope Innocent him ſelfe. Contra duas epiſt. Pelag. ad Bonifacium lib. 2. cap. 4. & cōtra Iulianum lib. 1. cap. 2. Furthermore the ſecond Councell of Nice, how many textes of ſcripture doth it falſely interprete, which it were to tedious to repete, yet for examples ſake I will reherſe ſome of them. God made man to his owne image Gen. 1. therefore we muſt hauehave images in the church. No man lighteth a candle and ſetteth it vnderunder a buſhell Math. 5. therefore images muſt be ſet vponupon the altars. As we hauehave heard, ſo we hauehave ſeene in the City of our God, Pſal. 48. that is: God muſt not be knowen by onelyonly hearing of his worde, but alſo by ſight of images. If theſe be not true interpretations I reporte me to you. Beſide theſe, I will bring you a ſentence of holy Scripture, not onelyonly falſely interpreted in ſence, but alſo falſified in wordes, and concerning not a ſmall matter, but euen one of the cheefe articles of our Faith. It is written in the 10. chapter of the Goſpell after S. Iohn the 29. verſe foreign. My Father which gaue thē vntounto me (ſpeaking of his ſheep) is greater than all. This ſentence, hath the Councell of Laterane, holden vnderunder Pope Innocent the 3. where were preſent 70. Metropolitanes, 400. Biſhops, 12. Abbates, and 800. Priors commentualles in all 1300. Prelats, falſified in wordes, after this maner, Pater quod dedit mihi, maius eſt omnibus, that is: That which the Father hath geuen me, is greater than all. This ſentence they alleage, to proue that God the Father begetting his Sonne from euerlaſting, gaue his owne ſubſtance vntounto him, the wordes be in the 2. Canon. Pater enim ab aeterno filium generando, ſuam ſubſtantiam ei dedit, iuxta quod ipſe teſtatur: Pater quod dedit mihi, maius eſt omnibus. At dici non poteſt, quod partem ſuae ſubſtantiae illi dederit, & partem retinuerit ipſe ſibi, cum ſubſtantia Patris indiuiſibilis ſit &c. that is to ſay: For the Father, begetting his ſonne, from euerlaſting, gaue him his owne ſubſtance, according as he himſelfe witneſſeth: that which the Father gaue me, is greater than all. But it can not be ſaid, that he gaue him part of his ſubſtance, and kept parte vntounto him ſelfe, when as the ſubſtance of the Father is indiuiſible &c. Goe your wayes now and perſwade vsus, that your church can not interprete any ſentence of the ſcripture, falſely, when the Laterane Councell, which is your repreſented church hath thus both falſefied, and falſely interpreted, this ſcripture. Perſwade men, that they may ſafely leane to the interpretation of your church, when among a thouſand and three hundred Prelates, gathered canonically in a Councell, not one was founde that coulde eſpie ſuch groſſe abuſing of the worde of God, but let it paſſe in a Canon, vnderunder the name of the whole Councell. Perſwade men, that in all controuerſies, & condemning of errors, they muſt be ruled by the determination of your Church, When the Fathers of the Laterane Councell, can not confute the error of Ioachim Abbot, concerning the Diuinitie of Chriſt, but by falſefying and falſe interpreting of ſcripture. Theſe few examples of an infinite numbre, I hauehave ſet forth, becauſe they are ſufficient, both to ſatisfie your chalenge, and to perſwade the ſimple, that the church of Rome may falſely interprete the ſcripture, which you woulde beare them in hande were impoſſible.
3 Or induce any error among the people.
THe true and onelyonly church of God, is ſo guided by God his ſpirite and directed by his worde that ſhe can not induce any damnable error to continue. Yet, as it is declared before, ſhe hath no ſuch priuilege graunted, but that ſhe may be deceiued, in ſome thinges: for her knowledge is vnperfect, and her prophecying is vnperfect. 1. Cor. 13. And it is true that S. Auguſtine ſayeth: euen the whole church is taught to ſaye: Forgeue vsus our treſpaſſes. And if generall Councells be the church repreſented (as you Papiſtes doe teache) S. Auguſtine plainely affirmeth that they may erre: De Baptiſmo contra Donatiſtas, lib. 2. cap. 2. Quis autem neſciat ſanctam ſcripturam Canonicam tam veteris quam noui Teſtamenti &c. And who knoweth not, that the holy Canonicall ſcripture, as well of the olde, as of the newe Teſtament, is conteined within her certeine boundes: and that it is ſo preferred, before all later writinges of byſhops, that of it, no man may in any wiſe doubt, or diſpute, whether it be true, or whether it be right, what ſo euer is knowen to be written therin: and that the writings of biſhops, which hauehave bene written, or are now in writinge, maye be reprehended, if they hauehave gonne aſtraie, any thing from the trueth, both by the ſaying that is perhaps more wiſe, of any man, that is more ſkilfull in that matter, and by the more graue authoritie and wiſedom of other better learned biſhops, and alſo by Councells: and that euen thoſe Councells which are gathered in eueryevery region or prouince, ought to geue: place without all doubt, to the authoritie of the generall Councells, which are gathered out of all the Chriſtian worlde: and that euen the very generall Councells, may often be amended, the former by the later, when as by any triall of thinges, that is opened, which before was ſhut, and that is knowen which before was hidden, without any ſwelling of wicked pride, without any ſtubberneſſe of arrogance, without any contention of peuiſhe enuie: with holy Humility, with Catholike peace, with Chriſtian charity. Thus farre, S. Auguſtine, which cleerely affirmeth, that generall Councells may often erre, which maye often be amended, but that the authority of God his worde, is to be preferred before the writings of all Doctors, and Decrees of all Councells, and that it onelyonly can not erre. The Councell of Carthage the 3. ca. 23. determined, that all prayers at the altar, ſhoulde be directed onelyonly to the Father, and not to the Sonne, or the holy Ghoſt, whether this be an error to define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne, and God the holy Ghoſt, let eueryevery man iudge. But you will except, that this was a prouinciall Synode, and not a generall Councell. But I aunſwere you, it hath the authoritie of a generall Councell, becauſe it was confirmed in the ſixt generall Councell holden at Conſtantinople in Trullo. And as for the Popiſh church, that it maye erre, what neede we better proofe than the prayer, which it maketh, after the ending of eueryevery generall Councell, Precamur ſcilicet vt ignorantiae parcas & errori indulgeas, that is we praye truely that thou wouldeſt ſpare our ignorance & pardō our error. And againe, Et quia conſcientia remordente tabeſcimus, ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem, aut praeceps forſitan voluntas impulerit a Iuſtitia declinare, ob hoc te poſcimus, te rogamus, vt ſi quid offenſionis in hac Concilij celebritate attraximus, condonare, & remiſſibile facere digneris. that is: And becauſe we are greued with remorce of conſcience, leſt either ignorance hauehave drawen vsus into error, or perhaps raſh will hath driuen vsus to decline from Iuſtice, therefore we praye thee, we beſeech thee, that if we hauehave drawen vntounto vsus any offence in the celebration of this Councell, thou wouldeſt vouche ſafe to pardon, and to make it remiſſible &c. If it be impoſſible for the generall Councell to erre, what neede they pray to God to pardon their error, and when their owne conſcience condemneth them and compelleth them to confeſſe, and that before God, that they may erre, what impudence is it in any man, to contend that they can not erre? Furthermore the ſecond Councell of Nice, determined that Angels, and ſoules of men had bodies, were viſible, and circumſcriptible, and therefore might be painted, and this it affirmeth to be the iudgement of the Catholike church, Con. Nice. 2. Actione 5. If this be not to induce an error, to make men beleue that Angells and ſpirites hauehave bodies viſible and circumſcriptible, there was neuer anye error ſence the worlde beganne. Finally, when they ſay the Pope can not erre, they acknowledge that ſuch generall Councells as condemned Popes, for heretikes, did erre, as the ſixt generall Councell of Conſtantinople in Trullo, which condemned and accurſed Pope Honorius for an heretike, Actione 13. Euen as Pope Leo, the 2. did alſo, as appeareth in his epiſtle, to the Emperour Conſtantine. Alſo the Councell of Conſtance did erre, which condemned Pope Iohn the 23. for denying the immortality of the ſoule, and the reſurrection of the body. Seſſion. 11. which Councell, Pope Iohn him ſelfe affirmed to be moſt holy, and that it coulde not erre. Seſſion. 12. And the Councell of Baſile did erre, which depoſed Pope Eugenius, the 4. Seſſion. 34. the ſame Councell being confirmed by Pope Nicolas the 5. Seſſion. 43. If you ſay: theſe two laſt Councells did not erre, in condemning and depoſing theſe Popes: Then the great generall, and OEcumenicall Councell of Ferraria, and Florence, did erre, in diſallowing the determination of theſe Councells. Thus it is manifeſt that the Romiſh church, which they them ſelues confeſſe, to be repreſented in a generall Councell, may erre, which hath ſo often erred. And if it may erre, and be deceiued it ſelfe, what man is he, that neede to doubt: Whether it maye iuduce any error among the people.
4 Or approue any vnprofitable or hurtefull vſage among Chriſtians.
IF the church had not approued many vnprofitable and hurtefull vſages, among the people in S. Auguſtines time, what neede had he to complaine, that many of God his cōmaundemēts, were litle regarded, & mans preſumptions ſo highely eſteemed, Sed hoc nimis doleo &c. But herewithall I am to much greued, that many thinges which in God his booke are moſt holſomly commanded are leſſe regarded, and all thinges are ſo full of ſo many preſumptions, that he is more greuouſely reproued, which in his vtas hath touched the earth, with his bare foote, that he that hath buried his minde in dronkenneſſe. Therefore if it be an vnprofitable and hurtefull vſage, to preferre mans traditions before God his commaundementes, the Church in S. Auguſtines time approued an vnprofitable and hurtefull vſage. Furthermore, if the Church can not approue an vnprofitable or hurtefall vſage, wherefore are ſo many ceremonies, as were approved in S. Auguſtines and S. Ambroſes times, abrogated and diſanulled, either becauſe they were vnprofitable, or elſe hurtful. Laſt of all, what ſuperſtitious vſages, doth the church of Rome ſtill approue? euen ſuch as the wiſer ſort of Papiſtes are aſhamed of.
5 Or that ſhe ſuffereth any man, damnably abuſing her religion, without open reprehenſion thereof, proue any of theſe thinges, and I recant.
THe true Church of Chriſt, in ſuch places as ſhe is, ſuffereth no man damnably abuſing her Religion, with out open reprehenſion, as in the dayes of VValdo, VVickleffe, Huſſe, &c. whereof ſufficient mention is made before, but becauſe ſhe is not in all places at all times, many men, yea whole nations, may damnably erre, and not be reprehended of her, As all the Mahometiſtes, which occupie the greateſt part of the world, who doth, or hath alwaies openly reprehended them. And the Romiſh Church, can well enough abide, ye true Religion of Chriſt, to be damnably abuſed, not onelyonly without reprehenſion, but alſo with allowing: For when the Friars, Dominicanes, & Franciſcans, had forged a newe Goſpell, out of the doctrine of Ioa…himus, and the viſions of Cyril, which they called the Goſpell of the holy Ghoſt, the Goſpell that ſhould endure hereafter, the euerlaſting Goſpell: which diuiliſh goſpell they affirmed to be ſo much more perfect, then the Goſpell of Chriſt: as the Sunne is more perfect then the Moone, & a kernell of a nut, before the ſhell: yet did not the Church of Rome, once reprehend it. So that it was cultiued 55, yeares, and at length ſet forth to be openly expounded in the Vniuerſitie of Paris, Anno Dom. 1255. without open reprehenſion of any, but ſuch as were counted heretikes for their labour, As Gulielmus de S. Amore, Gerardus Sagurellus, &c. And finally, when the matter was brought before the Pope, Anno Dom. 1256. by Gulielmus de S. Amore, and other ſent from the Vniuerſitie of Paris, the Pope and the Cardinalls, tooke order that it ſhoulde be priuily burned, and not openly reprehended, for ſhaming their orders. Mathaeus Pariſ. Whereby it is clearely proued, that the Romiſh Church hath ſuffered wicked men, damnably to abuſe Religion, without open or priuie reprehenſion for the ſpace of 55. yeares, and at length without open reprehenſion, when there was no remedie but it muſt needes be reprehended, wherefore if there be any grace in you, you will recant.