Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 24 – Article 25
The 24. article conteyneth 10. demandes.
1 Moreouer let any man ſhew how that Church can be the piller of truth, which durſt not for a thouſand yeares clayme either preaching of Gods word or miniſtring of Sacramēts or ſhew her ſelfe againſt falſhood or ſuperſtition.
AS the number of your articles doth draw to an ende, ſo your matter is farre ſpent, and therefore to make vppe your number, you muſt repete one thing twiſe. This demaund is conteined before in the 11. and 12. articles, where alſo it is fully aunſwered. Notwithſtanding, ſeeing it commeth againe it ſhal be briefly aunſwered in this place. The Church is not called the piller of truth, becauſe it ſhould ſtand alwayes in the ſight of the world: for then the defection, which S. Paule ſpeaketh of, could not hauehave come, neither ſhould the Church flie into the wildernes, as was declared to S. Iohn: But it is called the piller of truth, becauſe that where ſo euer the Church is, either viſible or inuiſible, there is the truth. So though the Church were hidde a certeyne time in the wildernes, yet there was trueth with the Church. You ſeeme to be a good Arithmetrician: for no number ſoundeth in your mouth but a thouſand. Neuertheleſſe how long ſo euer it was, the piller of truth decayed not, And as God gaue his ſpirite, diuers times was bold to chalenge preaching and miniſtring of the Sacraments, yea, and ſo boldly, that it coſt many of the chalengers their liues. As Berengarius, Bruno, Marſilus de Pandua, Ioannes de Gaudano, Ioannes VVickleffe, VValdo, Ioannes Hus, Ieronymus de Praga, &c. Thus it is manifeſt that the Church hath diuers tymes chalenged her right, and withſtood falſhood.
2 Let any man ſhew that all giftes of the ſpirite, and functions of the holy Ghoſt hauehave bene taken from her, a thouſand yeares togither, and onelyonly practiſed to the peoples vſe by an aduouterous Church.
THere is no man can ſhew this: for it is a falſe lye, that all giftes of the ſpirite, & function of the holy Ghoſt were either taken from the true Church, or giuen to the adulterous church. And this hath bene ſhewed more then once or twiſe before.
3 Let it be declared, how the gates of hell hauehave not preuailed, or Chriſtes promiſe and warrant for her, not bene voyd & fruſtrate, if a baſtard Church exerciſing idolatry, as they ſay, hath ſpoyled the true Church of all holy actions, and the whole gouernment, and the whole name of Chriſtianitie, almoſt euer ſince Chriſtes tyme.
THe Deuill hath bent all his force and ordinance, he hath armed all the power of darkeneſſe, he ſtirred vp ryrantes, heretikes, Popes, Saracenes, and Turkes to deſtroye the Church, the dragon, that olde ſerpent Satanas, the Deuill, ſtoode before the woman to deuoure her childe, he perſecuted her into the wilderneſſe, he caſt out of his mouthe, a great riuer to cary her awaie, he made warre with the reſt of her ſeede that keepe the commaundementes of God. Apoc. 12. but yet in deſpight of the deuill, the Pope, and all her enemies, ſhe is to this day preſerued, and ſhalbe to the worldes end: Therefore the gates of Hell, hauehave not preuailed againſt her, nor the promiſe of Chriſt hath failed. And whereas you ſay, that your baſtard church hath ſpoiled her of all holy actions, gouernment, and Chriſtian name, it is a moſt impudent lye, as it is true, that you ſawe a baſtard church vſurped her holy name, counterfaicted her holy actions, and turned her gouernment into tyrannie.
4 Let me ſee therefore howe the onelyonly dearling and ſpouſe of Chriſt ſhoulde be neglected of him ſo long.
SHe hath not bene neglected of him, but felt his continuall aide, he hath geuen her ſafe deliuerance of her childe, & taken it vp from the crueltie of the Dragon, he hath prouided her a place in the wilderneſſe, he hath made warre with the Dragon for her ſake, and driuen him out of heauen, he hath geuen her Eagles wings to flie into the wilderneſſe, he hath cauſed the earth, to ſwallow vp the water that ſhoulde hauehave caried her awaie, he hath geuen the remnant of her ſeede, Victorie ouer the Dragon. Finally, his mercifull protection and louing care ouer her, hath neuer more notably appeared than that againſt ſo many daungers and enemies all this while he hath preſerued her, vntill ſuch time as he hath thought good, now to bring her out of her ſecret place in the wilderneſſe, into the open ſight of the worlde againe.
5 Let the aduerſarie ſhew that the Church ſhoulde euer by ſuperſtition and falſhood commit adultery or be deuorced from him.
THe true church, conſiſting of God his elect, and the liuely members of the bodie of Chriſt, ſhall neuer commit ſuch adultery that ſhe ſhalbe diuorced from him. But the viſible church, by Idolatrie and ſuperſtition may ſeparate her ſelfe from Chriſt, and be refuſed of him, as God ſpeaketh by Eſay to the church of Ieruſalem cap. 1. How is the faithfull Citie become an harlot? It was full of iudgement, and iuſtice lodged therein, but now they are murtherers. Thy ſiluer is become droſſe, and thy wine is mixed with water. Thy Princes are rebellious and companions of theeues &c. euen ſo maye he ſay to the church of Rome: how is that faithfull church become an harlot, true Faith and Religion hauehave dwelled in her, but now Idolatrie and ſuperſtition: thy ſiluer is turned into droſſe, and thy wine is mixed with water, thou haſt nothing pure and vncorrupted, thy Princes be rebellious Antichriſtes &c. Thus I hauehave ſhewed that the viſible church, may become an adultereſſe, and be deuorced from Chriſt.
6 Or that Chriſt ſhould euer want his ſpouſe in earth.
THis hath bene often aunſwered before, Chriſt hath neuer wanted his ſpouſe in earth, though the blinde world can not alwayes ſee her, or when they ſee her, will not acknowledge her to be his ſpouſe, but perſecute her, as if ſhe were an adultereſſe.
7 Or that he ſhoulde be a heade either without a bodie.
THeſe are but one thing in diuers phraſes, as he hath neuer wanted his ſpouſe in earth, ſo hath he neuer bene an heade without a bodie, and ſeeing theſe wordes in this ſence are relatiues (for Chriſt is called a heade in reſpect of the Church which is his body, and the Church is called a bodie, in reſpect of Chriſt that is her heade) I aunſwere you by a rule of the Logicians: No man knoweth a relatiue, except he know the correlatiue thereof, Therefore, though Chriſt had a bodie in earth, yet coulde it be knowen of none, but ſuch as knewe Chriſt the heade of that bodie. Of whome, when the Papiſtes were ignorant, ſpecially when they appointed an other heade in earth, it is no marueill, if they could not ſee the bodie of Chriſt, though he hauehave neuer bene without it.
8 Or ſuch an vnknowne and ſmall bodie.
THis hath bene anſwered immediatly before, it ſufficeth that it be knowne to Chriſt the head. As he ſayeth: My ſheepe heare my voyce and I know them. Iohn 10. And to them that be of the members of the ſame body. As for the reſt, it is not neceſſary that they ſhould alwayes ſee it, which will neuer acknowledge it. Neither is it ſo ſmal, as it is thought of, it is diſperſed in many places ouer all the worlde, and yet fewe in compariſon of the malignant church, whoſe number is as the ſand of the ſea, &c. Apoc. 20.
9 Or that Chriſtes only kingdom ſhould become ſo cōtemptible.
NOthing elſe is to be looked for of the worlde, but hatred and contempt, as Chriſt him ſelfe ſayth: You ſhall be hated of all men for my names ſake. Matth. 10. & S. Paule biddeth vsus looke on our calling, not many wiſe men, according to the fleſh, not many mighty men, & not many noble men: but God hath choſen the fooliſh thinges of this world to confound the wiſe, and the weake of this worlde to conſounde the ſtronge. 1. Cor. 1. And what hath the true church to boaſt in but in the Croſſe of Chriſt. Gal. 6. than the which, nothing is more ſhamefull, contemptible or reprochefull to the wiſedome of this worlde: what knowledge or preaching hath the true church but Ieſus Chriſt crucified, which to the Iewes is an offence and to the Greckes fooliſhneſſe, but to them that be called, both Iewes and Greekes it is the power and wiſedome of God to euerlaſting ſaluation 1. Cor. 1. Rom. 1. So that as the church in the ſight of God and his Sainctes is moſt glorious and honorable, ſo in the ſight of the worlde it hath alwayes bene moſt baſe and contemptible.
10 Or that his ſpouſe in earth ſhoulde euer lacke the ſingular prerogatines of Gods ſpirite, ſhewe me theſe thinges, and I recant.
THis alſo hath ben declared before in the ſecond demande of this Article. There be certeine ſingular prerogatiues, which are not continually with God his Church: as the gift of tongues, the gift of propheſie, the gift of healinges &c. but there be other prerogatiues of God his ſpirit, that are neceſſary for the ſaluation of God his elect, as the gift of vnderſtanding, the gift of Faith, the ſpirit of adoption, &c. and theſe the ſpouſe of Chriſt hath neuer wanted. Wherefore if you wilbe partaker of thoſe benefits which are receiued in the church of Chriſt, you muſt forſake your Romiſh religion, and recant.
The 25. article hath 2. demandes.
1 Shew me that the Church, which ought to be a Chriſtian mans ſtaye, in all troubles and tempeſtes of doctrine might become ſo hidde or ſo cloſe that no man coulde finde her.
THe reader muſt not be offended with me for any tedious repetition of mine aunſweres, ſeeing you geue the occaſion, by propounding your demandes ſo often. This demande hath a falſe principle: that the church ought to be a Chriſtian mans onelyonly ſtaie in all troubles and tempeſtes of doctrine: for when ſoeuer any ſuch tempeſtes doe ariſe, there is as great queſtion and doubt of the Church, as there is controuerſie of the doctrine: for as eueryevery heretike chalengeth vntounto him ſelfe the trueth of opinions, ſo alſo doth he chalenge the poſſeſſion of the church, ſo that the church is alwayes in as great queſtion as the doctrine. And then is it to be ſought out and tried onelyonly by the ſcriptures, as we hauehave declared at large in the aunſwere to the 4. Article, 2. demande. Secondly whereas you demande: whether ſhe coulde be ſo hidde or cloſe that no man coulde finde her, becauſe I hauehave aunſwered to this demande ſower or fiue times already, I will now aunſwere in one worde: Although ſhe was hidden and cloſe from the worlde, yet was ſhe knowen to them that were her children.
2 Or ſo harteles that ſhe coulde ſuccour no man nor inſtruct any man in his doubt of conſcience or diſtreſſe of Faith, proue me that there maye be ſuch a decay of Gods ſpirite, trueth, and Church, and I recant.
THe Church hath neuer bene afraide to do her office towardes her children and true members, in teaching, exhorting, comforting, confirming, &c. neither hath the ſpirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth, and Chriſt hath bene with her euer more, and ſhalbe to the worldes end. But that the ſpirite of God, truth, and the Church of Chriſt, ſhoulde departe from the greateſt numbre of the worlde, is proued by S. Paule, 2. Theſſ. 2. and by the Reuelation of S. Iohn. Apoc. 12. Therfore if the ſpirite of trueth did leade you, you ſhoulde recant.