Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 23
The 23. article conteyneth 2. demandes.
1 Againe ſhew me any Church, or imagin if you can by good reaſon, a church of Chriſt in which there is no gathering together for preaching, no ſpirite of propheſying, no rodde of correction, no order of miniſtring nor any ſpirituall functiō that can be named, proue me that there ſhould be a true Church for a thouſand yeares together, and lacked all theſe thinges.
YOu would faine hauehave a great nombre of Articles and therefore you bring in one matter often times in diuers phraſe of words, that it might ſeeme a new matter when it hath bene vttered twiſe or thriſe before: as this Article is conteined before in the 5.8. and 9. Articles, where you ſhall finde it more largely aunſwered. But let vsus ſee, what this ſtrange demande requireth, we muſt ſhew him a church, or els imagine by good reaſon a church of Chriſt without preaching, miniſtring, and diſcipline for a thouſand yeares together. Although we will not graunt that it hath ſo longe continued without theſe exerciſes, yet becauſe you geue vsus leaue to imagine, we can imagine that it may as well continue without publike preaching, miniſtring, and diſcipline for a thouſand yeares, as it did for three hundred yeares before Conſtantine. But you will ſay there was preaching miniſtring, and correcting, though it were not knowen to the tyrantes and perſecutors, ſo ſay I vntounto you, for that thouſand veres there was gathering together for preaching, miniſtring, and correcting, though the Pope and his perſecuting Prelates coulde not alwayes ſee it, nor come to the knowledge of it: for if they had once intelligence of it they ſmarted for it, as is knowen by the ſtories of the Waldenſes, Bohemians, &c. Furthermore continuall exerciſe of preaching, miniſtring of ſacramentes, and executing of diſcipline, are notes of a quiet and peaceable Congregation, not of a diſperſed, perſecuted, and diſquieted Church. How often doth S. Cyprian cō plaine, that the brethren could not be gathered togither for executing of diſcipline, whereby it is certeyne, that likewiſe they coulde not be gathered togither for other exerciſes. Therefore the intermiſſion of theſe exerciſes in a perſecuted Church, doth not proue the ſame to be no true Church: But where ſo euer there be two or three gathered togither in the name of Chriſt, there is he in the middeſt of them. But whereas you require the ſpirite of propheſie (except you meane the gift of interpreting the Scriptures) the Church in the moſt quiet and flouriſhing ſtate, may want the ſpirite of ſhewing things to come, as well as the giftes of tongues, healing, &c.
2 And withall, that there was an other vntrue Church which for thoſe many dayes onelyonly practiſed to the ſaluation of many, all theſe offices: and geue me a good reaſon why this Church, that alwayes hath had theſe thinges ſhould be a falſe Church, and the other that wanted them, to be a true Church, and I recant.
WE vtterly denye, that beſide the true Church, there was an vntrue church, that practiſed thoſe offices to the ſaluation of any man: for once againe I tell you, you hauehave neither the preaching of the word, nor miniſtring of Sacraments, nor execution of diſcipline, according to the truth of God his inſtitution, but either altogither changed, or elſe greatly corrupted. And whereas you ſay, that the popiſh church onelyonly hath practiſed theſe offices: I aske you againe whether the Greeke Church be a parte of your Church, and whether the Papiſtes in England be a part of your Church. The Grecians you will ſay, are not: but the Engliſh Papiſtes are. Then hauehave I founde out by your owne iudgement, the Church of the Grecians, practiſing theſe offices being an vntrue church, & the church of ye Engliſh Papiſtes not practiſing the ſame, yet graunted of you to be a true Church. Therfore you are bound to recant.